God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Christian Coalition Cult (CCC) is rather embarrassing...
Date: 15 Jan 94 21:44:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07954fc2
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d2ed2b6
PID: FM 2.02
js> Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000.
And every one of them was arrested for praying, no doubt.
Well, no, actually. The self-appointed charasmatic cult watchdog group
"BARK"
founded by Barkley and Seal in New York publish active membership information
acquired through direct involvement -- in fundie words, they infiltrait
cults
and report to a varity of educational institutions around the United States.
At the end of June of 1992, recorded active membership in that charasmatic
cul
t
was a rather dismal and embarrassing 17,000. Also:
js> In 1993 900,000 and still growing.
At the end of June of 1993, the number of recorded active membership in
that c
harasmatic cult was a rather dismal and embarrassing 17,000.
Creamy Ranch Dressing was your choice, as I recall? As usual, cults greatly
i
nflate their membership in a vain attempt to make people believe that there
is
a viable domestic terrorism at work and that people should fear the cult.
js> We are going to invade all political and educational institutions,
All you're going to do, Joe, is invade the rears of innocent young boys.
js> The Church won't sit back and permit unbelievers to run the world.
Too late. You're perfectly harmless, Joe.
js> Scared Good....
You certainly appear to be.
~*~ I don't like you, I just hate you, I'm gonna' kick your ass! - GNR
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Evolution is a fact and there are theories to describe it
Date: 16 Jan 94 12:57:34
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd6
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306caa
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Dave!
I doubt if you'll be willing to finish reading this yet, here goes!
DW> No, I don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution is a fact. I believe the
DW> Theory of evolution is at least a good approximation of what
DW> happened.
dk> Well, which is it? a theory or a fact? It is most certainly not
dk> a FACT, although as of the last few years, it has been taught
dk> in public schools as fact.
There are quite a few believers in mythology who are honestly confused with
ev
olution and the theories which are being developed to describe it. Evolution
is an immutable fact, not subject to belief or disbelief. The theories
evolv
ed to describe the advent of species _is_ subject to debate yet the fact
remai
ns a fact.
"Gravity? Well? Which is it? A theory or a fact?"
That's what you're saying. Evolution, like gravity, is a fact. Also, evoluti
onary theories, like gravitational theories, attempt to describe the facts
and
are subject to scientific inquiry and opinion.
Anyone who claims that evolution doesn't happen needs to ask himself or
hersel
f why they are willing to accept that gravity happens but not evolution.
The
conclusion (if the individual is thinking at all) will be that they are
constr
ained through dogmatic belief in mythologies and are incapable of rational,
cr
itical, thought.
dk> Anyone willing to have an open mind and do a little
dk> research into the very fields that you like to quote
dk> from for your evidence, will doubtless find that the
dk> parameters for life to exsist on this planet leave
dk> little margin for error
I suspect you won't be allowed to remain within this forum for very long
-- no
t that anyone else will suggest that you search for some other avenue to
discu
ss mythology, but because you, yourself, will find that occult claims are
to b
e dismembered in rather unfriendly ways. When exposed to the light of
truth,
believers in mythology vacate rather quickly -- rather like vampires being
ex
posed to the light.
o Point 1: The origin of life is not in any way connected with
nor concerned with the advent of species (evolution.) Evolutionary
theories do not attempt to describe the origins of life. You are
claiming otherwise which means that you know not of which you spout.
o Point 2: There are biologists within this forum and laypeople
who are very well versed in the subject and associated subjects.
Claiming that the participants are unlearned in this area,
specifically, is rather silly and does nothing in supporting the
positive image that you doubtless consider you hold.
dk> and how all of these things point to a Creator.
Thinking that some magic wand is required to create life isn't being "open
minded." It is being rather silly and grimly close-minded. What we find
is
that the origins of life are easilly permitted through the environments
obtain
able as the Earth's crust cooled after its accretion.
What we also find is that believers will stoop to any lowness; perform any
und
erhanded and dishonest act; make any occult claim they must to salvage both
an
unworkable superstitious belief and a failing faith.
Most believers in deities don't feel the need to concoct stories and ignore
re
ality to bolster-up a sagging faith.
~*~ I fully give him the right to call the Bible a load of bullshit...
Just NOT to someone who believes in it. - Dan Sereduick
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: I AM Popeye the Sailor Man!
Date: 16 Jan 94 15:00:32
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fdf
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 740ce450
PID: FM 2.02
JCJ> is it warmer in the South than it is in the Summer?
rc> If you have trouble making it parallel, I can do that for you, but
rc> you ought to give it a shot first, for pedagogical reasons. Deal?
You could just tell him 'no' and then demand that, in the spirit of fairness,
he answer RC Query #1. The reason that the answer is 'no' is because it
is ju
st as warm in the South as it is in the summer -- in the South during summer.
It's amazing, isn't it? The insecurity and fear a simple question invokes.
~*~ I don't care if you're a Lesbian trapped in a mans body
- Thomas Blumenstetter
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Christian Coalition is groaning...
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:51:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6ff
PID: FM 2.02
JS> The Church won't sit back and
JS> permit unbelievers to run the world.
sq> Unbelievers won't allow you into their homes or their yards.
I knew you would comment. It's amazing, isn't it, that, after
be
ing so soundly debunked and exposed as a liar and a fraud, this individual
can
simply take a deep breath and continue to lie.
The guy's harmless. He's a homosexual but is too afraid to admit it, by
all e
xternal indications.
~*~ Their gawds are not worth the paper they are printed on! - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: GUESS WHO'S COMING TO CUM?
Date: 17 Jan 94 12:22:38
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2c2
PID: FM 2.02
> ž POW 1.0 On Trial ž Powerline Offline
> reader for Windows - New Windows OLR
Your OLR sucks the big Harry one.
(It caps yur name and subject, and truncates the subject.)
~*~ I believe in family with my ever loving wife beside me. She don't
know about my girl friend -- or the man I met last night - GENESIS
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Fact vs. Fact
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:05:07
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fc9
PID: FM 2.02
#include David Rice
DR> I heard that all sexual desire vanishes in a man once he
DR> marries. Wonder if it's true.
sq> In your wildest dreams, you hateful heathen. :)
'Taint so. The frequency of sexual intercourse may decrease due to mounting
f
inancial, socio-political demands and stress yet marriage doesn't seem to
detr
act from the biological drive to fuck, fuck, fuck.
~*~ I still can't make heads or tails or heads or
tails or heads or tails. . . out of it. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
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From: QMail v1.01
To: Nobody in particular
Sub: Re: Whatsa high water mark?
Date: 15 Jan 94 20:10:21
--------
This message is used by QMail to store the high water mark
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Barard
Sub: And at last count, seven -- and growing!
Date: 15 Jan 94 20:42:54
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07947f76
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DAB
PID: FM 2.02
DC> Perhaps nothing more than another round of trivia.... Glad
DC> to see that you have at least done a little research!
SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
Okay! How many deities do you worship?
~*~ Shit, gotta run. there's data that needs to be faked.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Fact vs. Superstition
Date: 15 Jan 94 21:05:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07950fb1
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DB2
PID: FM 2.02
#include Rob Bamford
RB> Take note, also, that the Bible was written by numerous authors (Old
RB> and New Testaments) over many hundreds of years, yet while the majority
RB> of the authors did't know each other, their writings have stayed in
RB> harmony with each other. Rob
dc> Bob, do you care to start that off by explaining how the day
dc> of the last supper seems to be off a tad when comparing the
dc> different gospels?
"That's a minor rather embarrassing mistake which doesn't detract from the
validity of the rest of the doctrin."
dc> ... +Origin: MASTICATOR! NETWORK--CHEWING THE FAT WITH JESUS
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Interpret it any way you want to -- it's still mythology, Steve.
Date: 16 Jan 94 12:43:20
--------
Star:Goat
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REPLY: 1:247/133 050b1d4d
PID: FM 2.02
DS> Even the devils believe. Jesus even told Satan to get behind him
DS> and commanded him to do good (serve God).
sb> Actually, Jesus was talking to Peter here and was calling Him satan
sb> because he tried tempting Jesus into avoiding the crucifixion.
That's one way to interpret this bit of mythology. There are many ways
that t
his bit of mythology may be interpreted which can present a claim for anything
your masters wish it to claim.
I merly mention it as that's the nature of myths: they are employed as
socio-
political vehicles towards an end and their interpretations change and mutate
according to the political environment of the contemporary time.
In any event, it's rather a heavy contradiction in that the Jesus mythos
chast
ized Peter about not setting himself up as a martyr and then later, before
bei
ng hung or nailed to a tree, asking himself for permission to change his
own m
ind about him setting himself up as a martyr.
A buck! says that you'll find a justification for the change of
hear
t. At _minimum_ the Jesus mythos was comparing himself to the Satan mythos
wh
en it asked itself to avoid its own required death.
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 16 Jan 94 13:20:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd7
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306cab
PID: FM 2.02
#include Martin Goldberg
MG> 5. Random events do not occur and stick around.
dk> Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?!
So far you have yet to concoct a valid argument so the answer is no.
dk> Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope of 10-20
dk> billion years because the chance of random shuffling of amino acids
dk> (the building blocks of life) producing a workable set of enzymes
dk> would be less then 10 to the -40,000
You are employing one of the standard creationist straw-men. Evolutionary
pro
cesses do not employ random distributions. Also, you are doing nothing
to det
ract from the fact of evolution; you are merely attempting to find something
w
rong with one of the theories which describes it.
dk> (this is a conservative estimate by British
dk> Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle made in 1981).
Hoyle is a creationist who holds no discernable credentials in biology nor
in
molecular biology. When he spouts his creationist beliefs he merely serves
to
damage his once highly reguarded credability as a fine scientist.
You may as well name-drop a mathematition, philosopher, or plumber.
dk> Science does have a limit in the Laws of Probability,
dk> at which something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE.
No, actually. Within the realm of scientific method, nothing remains impossib
le just highly unlikely. Brownian motion within a table may cause that
table
to reform into a lamp yet it's highly unlikely.
dk> Anything less than 10 to the -50 is considered absurd.
An occult and emotional belief not supported by facts.
dk> Even if you ran your different combinations in the 20
dk> BILLION years, you wouldn't have the TIME to come up
dk> with the right combination.
Another straw-man yet, even so, you're incorrect. In sequential order,
placed
within one nanosecond, one wouldn't need even a percent of that 20 billion
ye
ars you're offering.
In any event, the Earth's star is a second generation star.
Really, Dave... Try to present a reasonable discussion, at least.
~*~ My personal opinion that we were built by something is based
on the available evidence. Since it is an opinion and not
backed up with evidence. -- Bill Wolff
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: Aids is the Christian pantheon's gift to a sinning humanity
Date: 16 Jan 94 13:30:52
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd8
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PID: FM 2.02
Hay!
Welcome back!
SB> Sorry, but Christian morality is the only hope this world
SB> has. To bad to world is going to refuse to follow it.
hh> By their fruits shall ye know them. More human suffering has
hh> been inflicted in the name of Christianity than by any other
hh> 'ism' -- with the possible exception of Islam.
Though the evidence is immutable and entirely clear, you'll never convince
a b
eliever in same deadly ideologies that there is anything wrong with them.
What
I expect you'll see is that Steve Bardard will claim that the Catholic Pope
a
nd all of the people who have murdered, tortures, raped, and burned the
millio
ns of innocent people all down through recorded time were not Christians.
~*~ Most white people can get seriously mutated by just
5 hours of constant direct sunlight. - James Conwell
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: True colors: black and white
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:02:28
--------
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REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bd2c
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ce> I don't expect someone off the street to be able to do it,
ce> but fer Christ's Sakes, 4 year grads who can't do ladder logic?
Hey, wow. We got us one of them ladder logic grunts here in Holland doing
wie
rd, bizzare, and occult things with hardware thingies. Us software types
neve
r stoop so low as to get our hards dirty with that stuff.
He's moving motors for conveyers and sortation machines and I'm telling
him wh
ere to go.
Yet you make the point clearly: There is a marked lack of quality education
b
eing performed in the general populace. The perception is that people are
not
getting what they pay for in higher-level institutions and they're not gettin
g what they _should_ get in the lower-level schools.
~*~ In no way am I your physical or mental inferior and I refuse to
be addressed as one, you drooling asswipe. - Lynne Rosendale
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: HYPNOTHERAPY
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:10:37
--------
Star:Goat
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REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d30807f
PID: FM 2.02
sq> * To : Stewart Harris
SH> However, two government agencies, because of a device I have
SH> which overcomes gravity without using any energy, have had me
SH> judged mentally incompetent and my passport is being held up
SH> under "administrative review."
I just _love_ conspiracy theories!
sq> Thought some would get a chuckle out of this.
sq> Sorry I didn't catch the original.
The original would be worth money. Does anyone you know have it?
~*~ "Join us on the dark side, Jake." - Questor Thews
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: no not that! Yes, sadly, it's an education
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:12:46
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Star:Goat
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PID: FM 2.02
AH> God has better things to do than have
AH> conversations with mere humans.
lo> Yes, but then I have better things to do than talk to my son too.
If you're making the attempt to equate the classical Christian pantheon
descri
be in the OT as a 'father/son' relationship, you might have more success
sugge
sting that the time you spend with your son is in killing him were he to
displ
ease you.
I merely mention in, Len. No need to get upset.
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Know you from ADAM...
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:45:22
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REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2fcce9
PID: FM 2.02
SL> In reponse to MG: Can you give us any real evidence that Cesar lived,
jm> Do you mean "Caesar"? Which one? Again, it hinges on evidence.
And Augustus, as I recall, ruled for four years under the name Octavian.
(Pardon __my__ spelling! )
~*~ BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until
I am proven wrong I am right. -- Zach Webb, HOLYSMOKE FidoNet
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:48:59
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REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d308f96
PID: FM 2.02
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
DM> Evidence?
js> Elementary, my dear Donson; you responded to me.
Only because Gravity is smart enough not to make outrageous claims.
js> Your Worst Nightmare!
More like your worst daydream.
This claim, also, has been tried before and debunked.
~*~ If Iraq invaded Turkey from the rear would Greece help? - Unknown
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Jesse has indeed learned a great deal
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:10:51
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Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6f9
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 d3046bf7
PID: FM 2.02
SB> It seems to be more non-theistic rather than atheistic [...]
rc> Haven't you picked up on this fact yet? Keep it up, and you'll be
rc> the next Jesse, saying, "I have learned _nothing_ from my stay here!"
Which is evidenced as false merely due to his marked change in amount of
nonse
nse being spewed.
~*~ Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
- Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Real vs. imaginary
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:14:02
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fa
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 44c3a643
PID: FM 2.02
SB> Alright I have a better one. If I show you both of my hands
SB> and they seem empty can you prove that I am not holding a
SB> hammer in my hands?
He picks a real object to 'support' an argument about an imaginary one.
rc> If I show you both of my hands and they seem empty, can you
rc> prove that I am not holding a magical elf in my hands?
You did much better.
rc> ... "I killed the Greek piper god", Tom deadpanned.
"I can fuck you now," Tom said stiffly.
~*~ Deal with it, pink boy. - Crow T. Robot
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Rape and kill for Jesus -- it's the only way to "return them."
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:17:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fb
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 73ce7eb2
PID: FM 2.02
SB> When He destroyed it was out of necessity and when He punished the
SB> Hebrews it was in order to bring them back to Him.
"Punished" as in "raped then killed their children and then killed their
paren
ts" and "bring them back to it" as in "kill them all so that they could
stand
in judgement after they're dead.
rc> Sounds like some excuse used by husbands who abuse their wifes. It
is
rc> sickening and barbaric, with no redeeming social qualities at all.
rc> Disgusting.
It's amazing that this Christian pig can read his mythologies and find nothing
whatsoever wrong with the lovely morality of rape and murder.
~*~ I fully give him the right to call the Bible a load of bullshit...
Just NOT to someone who believes in it. - Dan Sereduick
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Mike Staab
Sub: And yet another one steps up to the microphone
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:20:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fc
PID: FM 2.02
ms> I don't like to play games, but do enjoy sound reasoning.
ms> Anyone interested?
Why sure!
Was your Judas mythos killed by hanging or by jummping off of a cliff?
~*~ A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle - U2
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:26:30
--------
Star:Goat
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REPLY: 1:2617/117 059155b5
PID: FM 2.02
ds> Yes, but it's ludicrous to think that atheism is not a religious
ds> belief, since it does indeed deal with theories about religion.
Oh? And what, please tell, are these mysterious religious 'theories' that
you
are attempting to saddle the more fortunate among us with? Please be specifi
c.
~*~ You could push it for more mileage but your flaps are wearing thin
and
I could sleep on it 'till morning but this nightmare never ends - GNR
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in "morality"
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:45:12
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fe
PID: FM 2.02
DR> P.S. Just downloaded DOOM. Disgusting!
sq> Great game. "Catharsis" is written all over it. :)
I thought it had 'B L O O D" written all over it.
What's a file name I can use to download her butt good?
~*~ "Pi = 3, no error at all - Jesus
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Barard
Sub: And at last count, seven -- and growing!
Date: 15 Jan 94 20:42:54
--------
Star:Goat
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REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DAB
PID: FM 2.02
DC> Perhaps nothing more than another round of trivia.... Glad
DC> to see that you have at least done a little research!
SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
Okay! How many deities do you worship?
~*~ Shit, gotta run. there's data that needs to be faked.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Fact vs. Superstition
Date: 15 Jan 94 21:05:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07950fb1
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DB2
PID: FM 2.02
#include Rob Bamford
RB> Take note, also, that the Bible was written by numerous authors (Old
RB> and New Testaments) over many hundreds of years, yet while the majority
RB> of the authors did't know each other, their writings have stayed in
RB> harmony with each other. Rob
dc> Bob, do you care to start that off by explaining how the day
dc> of the last supper seems to be off a tad when comparing the
dc> different gospels?
"That's a minor rather embarrassing mistake which doesn't detract from the
validity of the rest of the doctrin."
dc> ... +Origin: MASTICATOR! NETWORK--CHEWING THE FAT WITH JESUS
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Interpret it any way you want to -- it's still mythology, Steve.
Date: 16 Jan 94 12:43:20
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd5
REPLY: 1:247/133 050b1d4d
PID: FM 2.02
DS> Even the devils believe. Jesus even told Satan to get behind him
DS> and commanded him to do good (serve God).
sb> Actually, Jesus was talking to Peter here and was calling Him satan
sb> because he tried tempting Jesus into avoiding the crucifixion.
That's one way to interpret this bit of mythology. There are many ways
that t
his bit of mythology may be interpreted which can present a claim for anything
your masters wish it to claim.
I merly mention it as that's the nature of myths: they are employed as
socio-
political vehicles towards an end and their interpretations change and mutate
according to the political environment of the contemporary time.
In any event, it's rather a heavy contradiction in that the Jesus mythos
chast
ized Peter about not setting himself up as a martyr and then later, before
bei
ng hung or nailed to a tree, asking himself for permission to change his
own m
ind about him setting himself up as a martyr.
A buck! says that you'll find a justification for the change of
hear
t. At _minimum_ the Jesus mythos was comparing himself to the Satan mythos
wh
en it asked itself to avoid its own required death.
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 16 Jan 94 13:20:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd7
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306cab
PID: FM 2.02
#include Martin Goldberg
MG> 5. Random events do not occur and stick around.
dk> Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?!
So far you have yet to concoct a valid argument so the answer is no.
dk> Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope of 10-20
dk> billion years because the chance of random shuffling of amino acids
dk> (the building blocks of life) producing a workable set of enzymes
dk> would be less then 10 to the -40,000
You are employing one of the standard creationist straw-men. Evolutionary
pro
cesses do not employ random distributions. Also, you are doing nothing
to det
ract from the fact of evolution; you are merely attempting to find something
w
rong with one of the theories which describes it.
dk> (this is a conservative estimate by British
dk> Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle made in 1981).
Hoyle is a creationist who holds no discernable credentials in biology nor
in
molecular biology. When he spouts his creationist beliefs he merely serves
to
damage his once highly reguarded credability as a fine scientist.
You may as well name-drop a mathematition, philosopher, or plumber.
dk> Science does have a limit in the Laws of Probability,
dk> at which something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE.
No, actually. Within the realm of scientific method, nothing remains impossib
le just highly unlikely. Brownian motion within a table may cause that
table
to reform into a lamp yet it's highly unlikely.
dk> Anything less than 10 to the -50 is considered absurd.
An occult and emotional belief not supported by facts.
dk> Even if you ran your different combinations in the 20
dk> BILLION years, you wouldn't have the TIME to come up
dk> with the right combination.
Another straw-man yet, even so, you're incorrect. In sequential order
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Barard
Sub: And at last count, seven -- and growing!
Date: 15 Jan 94 20:42:54
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07947f76
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DAB
PID: FM 2.02
DC> Perhaps nothing more than another round of trivia.... Glad
DC> to see that you have at least done a little research!
SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
Okay! How many deities do you worship?
~*~ Shit, gotta run. there's data that needs to be faked.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Fact vs. Superstition
Date: 15 Jan 94 21:05:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 07950fb1
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DB2
PID: FM 2.02
#include Rob Bamford
RB> Take note, also, that the Bible was written by numerous authors (Old
RB> and New Testaments) over many hundreds of years, yet while the majority
RB> of the authors did't know each other, their writings have stayed in
RB> harmony with each other. Rob
dc> Bob, do you care to start that off by explaining how the day
dc> of the last supper seems to be off a tad when comparing the
dc> different gospels?
"That's a minor rather embarrassing mistake which doesn't detract from the
validity of the rest of the doctrin."
dc> ... +Origin: MASTICATOR! NETWORK--CHEWING THE FAT WITH JESUS
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Interpret it any way you want to -- it's still mythology, Steve.
Date: 16 Jan 94 12:43:20
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd5
REPLY: 1:247/133 050b1d4d
PID: FM 2.02
DS> Even the devils believe. Jesus even told Satan to get behind him
DS> and commanded him to do good (serve God).
sb> Actually, Jesus was talking to Peter here and was calling Him satan
sb> because he tried tempting Jesus into avoiding the crucifixion.
That's one way to interpret this bit of mythology. There are many ways
that t
his bit of mythology may be interpreted which can present a claim for anything
your masters wish it to claim.
I merly mention it as that's the nature of myths: they are employed as
socio-
political vehicles towards an end and their interpretations change and mutate
according to the political environment of the contemporary time.
In any event, it's rather a heavy contradiction in that the Jesus mythos
chast
ized Peter about not setting himself up as a martyr and then later, before
bei
ng hung or nailed to a tree, asking himself for permission to change his
own m
ind about him setting himself up as a martyr.
A buck! says that you'll find a justification for the change of
hear
t. At _minimum_ the Jesus mythos was comparing himself to the Satan mythos
wh
en it asked itself to avoid its own required death.
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 16 Jan 94 13:20:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd7
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306cab
PID: FM 2.02
#include Martin Goldberg
MG> 5. Random events do not occur and stick around.
dk> Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?!
So far you have yet to concoct a valid argument so the answer is no.
dk> Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope of 10-20
dk> billion years because the chance of random shuffling of amino acids
dk> (the building blocks of life) producing a workable set of enzymes
dk> would be less then 10 to the -40,000
You are employing one of the standard creationist straw-men. Evolutionary
pro
cesses do not employ random distributions. Also, you are doing nothing
to det
ract from the fact of evolution; you are merely attempting to find something
w
rong with one of the theories which describes it.
dk> (this is a conservative estimate by British
dk> Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle made in 1981).
Hoyle is a creationist who holds no discernable credentials in biology nor
in
molecular biology. When he spouts his creationist beliefs he merely serves
to
damage his once highly reguarded credability as a fine scientist.
You may as well name-drop a mathematition, philosopher, or plumber.
dk> Science does have a limit in the Laws of Probability,
dk> at which something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE.
No, actually. Within the realm of scientific method, nothing remains impossib
le just highly unlikely. Brownian motion within a table may cause that
table
to reform into a lamp yet it's highly unlikely.
dk> Anything less than 10 to the -50 is considered absurd.
An occult and emotional belief not supported by facts.
dk> Even if you ran your different combinations in the 20
dk> BILLION years, you wouldn't have the TIME to come up
dk> with the right combination.
Another straw-man yet, even so, you're incorrect. In sequential order,
placed
within one nanosecond, one wouldn't need even a percent of that 20 billion
ye
ars you're offering.
In any event, the Earth's star is a second generation star.
Really, Dave... Try to present a reasonable discussion, at least.
~*~ My personal opinion that we were built by something is based
on the available evidence. Since it is an opinion and not
backed up with evidence. -- Bill Wolff
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: Aids is the Christian pantheon's gift to a sinning humanity
Date: 16 Jan 94 13:30:52
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd8
REPLY: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb75
PID: FM 2.02
Hay!
Welcome back!
SB> Sorry, but Christian morality is the only hope this world
SB> has. To bad to world is going to refuse to follow it.
hh> By their fruits shall ye know them. More human suffering has
hh> been inflicted in the name of Christianity than by any other
hh> 'ism' -- with the possible exception of Islam.
Though the evidence is immutable and entirely clear, you'll never convince
a b
eliever in same deadly ideologies that there is anything wrong with them.
What
I expect you'll see is that Steve Bardard will claim that the Catholic Pope
a
nd all of the people who have murdered, tortures, raped, and burned the
millio
ns of innocent people all down through recorded time were not Christians.
~*~ Most white people can get seriously mutated by just
5 hours of constant direct sunlight. - James Conwell
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: True colors: black and white
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:02:28
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fd9
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bd2c
PID: FM 2.02
ce> I don't expect someone off the street to be able to do it,
ce> but fer Christ's Sakes, 4 year grads who can't do ladder logic?
Hey, wow. We got us one of them ladder logic grunts here in Holland doing
wie
rd, bizzare, and occult things with hardware thingies. Us software types
neve
r stoop so low as to get our hards dirty with that stuff.
He's moving motors for conveyers and sortation machines and I'm telling
him wh
ere to go.
Yet you make the point clearly: There is a marked lack of quality education
b
eing performed in the general populace. The perception is that people are
not
getting what they pay for in higher-level institutions and they're not gettin
g what they _should_ get in the lower-level schools.
~*~ In no way am I your physical or mental inferior and I refuse to
be addressed as one, you drooling asswipe. - Lynne Rosendale
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: HYPNOTHERAPY
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:10:37
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fda
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d30807f
PID: FM 2.02
sq> * To : Stewart Harris
SH> However, two government agencies, because of a device I have
SH> which overcomes gravity without using any energy, have had me
SH> judged mentally incompetent and my passport is being held up
SH> under "administrative review."
I just _love_ conspiracy theories!
sq> Thought some would get a chuckle out of this.
sq> Sorry I didn't catch the original.
The original would be worth money. Does anyone you know have it?
~*~ "Join us on the dark side, Jake." - Questor Thews
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: no not that! Yes, sadly, it's an education
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:12:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fdb
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2f5c00
PID: FM 2.02
AH> God has better things to do than have
AH> conversations with mere humans.
lo> Yes, but then I have better things to do than talk to my son too.
If you're making the attempt to equate the classical Christian pantheon
descri
be in the OT as a 'father/son' relationship, you might have more success
sugge
sting that the time you spend with your son is in killing him were he to
displ
ease you.
I merely mention in, Len. No need to get upset.
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Know you from ADAM...
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:45:22
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fdd
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2fcce9
PID: FM 2.02
SL> In reponse to MG: Can you give us any real evidence that Cesar lived,
jm> Do you mean "Caesar"? Which one? Again, it hinges on evidence.
And Augustus, as I recall, ruled for four years under the name Octavian.
(Pardon __my__ spelling! )
~*~ BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until
I am proven wrong I am right. -- Zach Webb, HOLYSMOKE FidoNet
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 16 Jan 94 14:48:59
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080c6fde
REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d308f96
PID: FM 2.02
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
DM> Evidence?
js> Elementary, my dear Donson; you responded to me.
Only because Gravity is smart enough not to make outrageous claims.
js> Your Worst Nightmare!
More like your worst daydream.
This claim, also, has been tried before and debunked.
~*~ If Iraq invaded Turkey from the rear would Greece help? - Unknown
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Jesse has indeed learned a great deal
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:10:51
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6f9
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 d3046bf7
PID: FM 2.02
SB> It seems to be more non-theistic rather than atheistic [...]
rc> Haven't you picked up on this fact yet? Keep it up, and you'll be
rc> the next Jesse, saying, "I have learned _nothing_ from my stay here!"
Which is evidenced as false merely due to his marked change in amount of
nonse
nse being spewed.
~*~ Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
- Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Real vs. imaginary
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:14:02
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fa
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 44c3a643
PID: FM 2.02
SB> Alright I have a better one. If I show you both of my hands
SB> and they seem empty can you prove that I am not holding a
SB> hammer in my hands?
He picks a real object to 'support' an argument about an imaginary one.
rc> If I show you both of my hands and they seem empty, can you
rc> prove that I am not holding a magical elf in my hands?
You did much better.
rc> ... "I killed the Greek piper god", Tom deadpanned.
"I can fuck you now," Tom said stiffly.
~*~ Deal with it, pink boy. - Crow T. Robot
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Rape and kill for Jesus -- it's the only way to "return them."
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:17:46
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fb
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 73ce7eb2
PID: FM 2.02
SB> When He destroyed it was out of necessity and when He punished the
SB> Hebrews it was in order to bring them back to Him.
"Punished" as in "raped then killed their children and then killed their
paren
ts" and "bring them back to it" as in "kill them all so that they could
stand
in judgement after they're dead.
rc> Sounds like some excuse used by husbands who abuse their wifes. It
is
rc> sickening and barbaric, with no redeeming social qualities at all.
rc> Disgusting.
It's amazing that this Christian pig can read his mythologies and find nothing
whatsoever wrong with the lovely morality of rape and murder.
~*~ I fully give him the right to call the Bible a load of bullshit...
Just NOT to someone who believes in it. - Dan Sereduick
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mike Staab
Sub: And yet another one steps up to the microphone
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:20:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fc
PID: FM 2.02
ms> I don't like to play games, but do enjoy sound reasoning.
ms> Anyone interested?
Why sure!
Was your Judas mythos killed by hanging or by jummping off of a cliff?
~*~ A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle - U2
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:26:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fd
REPLY: 1:2617/117 059155b5
PID: FM 2.02
ds> Yes, but it's ludicrous to think that atheism is not a religious
ds> belief, since it does indeed deal with theories about religion.
Oh? And what, please tell, are these mysterious religious 'theories' that
you
are attempting to saddle the more fortunate among us with? Please be specifi
c.
~*~ You could push it for more mileage but your flaps are wearing thin
and
I could sleep on it 'till morning but this nightmare never ends - GNR
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in "morality"
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:45:12
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff6fe
PID: FM 2.02
DR> P.S. Just downloaded DOOM. Disgusting!
sq> Great game. "Catharsis" is written all over it. :)
I thought it had 'B L O O D" written all over it.
What's a file name I can use to download her butt good?
~*~ "Pi = 3, no error at all - Jesus is God, so listen to Paul! With
faith in your Babble, beat Satan at Scrabble! Type things to hide
your illiterate scrawl." - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Schultz
Sub: Your deities are good! Don't damage the faith!
Date: 16 Jan 94 16:56:22
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 080ff700
PID: FM 2.02
TAW> Debatable, but in any event, is good God?
DS> More than anything else, as good is synonymous with love.
MG> I DARE you to call Steve Quarrella's BBS and
MG> [download] "GOD$LOVE.GIF" from his Holysmoke files area.
sq> Phone number is 214/412-8457.
Don't do it Dave! No one remains a Christian after getting a good look
at wha
t his or her deity is really like. If you have _any_ questions about your
fai
th, I urge you not to even attempt to face the facts. If you're a false
Chris
tian, DON'T LOOK AT THIS PICTURE! You can still be saved if you don't!
~*~ Don't die blondie! Please don't die! You son of a bitch! I'll teach
you! Oh! I'm sorry! Please don't die blondie! - Good, Bad, Ugly
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Zach Bickers
Sub: bible nonsense
Date: 16 Jan 94 20:20:26
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 081441b3
REPLY: 1:106/7315 2D320077
PID: FM 2.02
zb> Heres a good point,"the bible was writing by humans,humans lie1"
zb> whats the responce to that one gonna be?
"Correct your grammer and your spelling and try again."
I have no concept of what you're trying to say.
~*~ The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery
are greased by caffeine. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proofis for pudding
Date: 16 Jan 94 20:42:58
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 081441b4
REPLY: 1:3406/27 52c7d4c2
PID: FM 2.02
dk> Can you prove that God doesn't exsist?
People who are programmed to believe in deities are those who must present
evi
dence for the existance of their deities; it is not up to the better educated
to try to find the invisible pink hippos in your backyard merely because
you t
hink they are present.
dk> It seems that you are quite certain that he doesn't...
Which deity or deities are you suggesting David W. doesn't think exist?
Withou
t putting a name on them, it's rather difficult for the better educated
to kno
w which deities, exactly, you are talking about.
dk> Do you believe in evolution?
No one believes in evolution.
dk> Why? were you there? Did you see it happen?
If you can not ask a meaningful or rational question, Dave, I would suggest
th
at you attempt to educate yourself to the point where you can concoct one.
dk> Those of us who believe the Bible and are convinced that
dk> God does exsist, are not always on the defensive.
Which bible are you talking of, specifically? There are hundreds
of
holy books and your lack of mentioning which one you're talking about makes
t
he better educated individuals within this forum ignore ambiguoius claims.
In any event, if you are spouting occult nonsense about the classical Christia
n mythologies, then you need look only so far as the believes in said mytholog
ies who feel that they need to deny the existance of evolution in a vain
attem
pt to salvage unworkable superstitious beliefs.
You'll also note that all public debates between the better educated and
the b
elievers in the classical Christian mythologies have ended with the sad
and un
timely dismemberment and disembowlement of the poor unfortunate believer
in sa
id mythologies.
dk> I belive that it takes more faith to believe
dk> that all this (look around...) happened by accident.
Only because you believe that it happened by accident.
dk> When you look at the complexity of out
dk> universe, and how everything works with
dk> so little room for error, one cannot
dk> help but wonder if it is the product
dk> of engineering.
It would seem as though you are vastly ignorant as to the rather dismal
amount
of evolutionary genetic garbage in each and every cell of a living thing.
It
would also seen as though you are vastly ignorant of the rather badly aranged
organic biology -- your own body (as much as it disgusts you) is indicitive
o
f the astounding negation of your claim of 'design.'
Either subtract your ignorance or admit that your nasal cavities drain into
yo
ur lungs.
dk> Shalom.
Try again.
~*~ Ok, please explain the difference between facts and truth - J. Conwell
Facts are what the educated accept as truth.
Truths are what fundies are told to accept as fact. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Calling god a liar
Date: 16 Jan 94 20:46:21
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 081441b5
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284a74
PID: FM 2.02
MC> Looking for contradictions in scripture is looking to
MC> catch God in a lie, because God says the Bible is true.
The Christian pantheon lies worse than Joe Save-lie.
~*~ You act like you've never had love and you want me to go without -
U2
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Comrade Fredric
To: David Rice
Sub: True colors
Date: 16 Jan 94 21:21:08
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 081441b6
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284ab0
PID: FM 2.02
#include: Derek Clayton
CF> Where are the girls in grass dresses? Where are the
CF> palm trees? They said there would be palm trees and
CF> girls.
dr> "And I'm going to get a. . . recreational vehicle...." []
Yes, and live in Montana. The zampolit? He met with an accident.
'Course the best line was, "They'll give you the Order of Lenin(sp) for
this."
DC> Which explains why so many christians are ethical midgets.
CF> Enforced compliance to dogma and myth may well be window
CF> dressing for the bitter center which seeks only to dictate
CF> others morality for all time.
dr> Er, my opinion is that the average Christian biggot is
dr> altruistic in hir attempts to mandate "morality."
I can't agree to that as a viable alternative in light of Joe Save-lie and
his
recient dictates to the contrary, though. If we're looking at averages,
I w
ould have to conclude by the evidence that the average Christian was an
insecu
re, sexually dysfunctional missfit with delusions of being a bully with
a mob
behind him or her to punish those hateful better educated who taunted them
wit
h undeniable truths into a miserable silence.
This perception isn't simply mine. There are several books delving into
the p
sychology of the Christian. Such works as, "The Mind of the Bible Believer"
c
overs the psychotic lengths believers will go to to violate others to bolster
a sagging faith.
dr> SHe just doesn't see that attempt as the bigotry (based in
dr> fear) that it is. In other words, I believe that they
dr> actually -DO- have our best interests at heart, but they
dr> do not understand that most of us are old enough to look
dr> out for ourselves, thankyouverymuch, and don't appreciate
dr> their attempts to "help" us.
Again, I can't agree. While many individual Christians are that ignorant
and
that stupid, I still must attribute it to direct malice as I refuse to accept
the suggestion that there are millions of such individuals so fundamentally
"broken" and inhuman. Claims to the contrary have been evidenced false.
Scott
Shitfitt -- as have others -- have made claims that their motivations were
to
'save everyone' -- presumably from rational discourse and intelligence.
And, as the sugar coating comes off, we find a hateful little boy hiding
behin
d the mob, stiff dick in hand and malice in mind.
dr> They believe they are saving everyone from drowning,
dr> even though there's no water anywhere. They believe they
dr> "know best" and everyone is less enlightened than they.
That's not the conclusion that the religious zealots invoke among the unaffect
ed here in this forum, though -- or at _minimum_ the perception that I have
is
that it's direct malice.
Claims about homosexuals sum-up the perception nicely;
specifically, the _ideologies_ are faulty and hateful and
so those who subscribe to those ideologies must be.
And, while HolySmoke couldn't be considered real life, it _does_ draw from
the
pool of the living. (Yes, that's highly debatable since __some__ of us
don't
have a life.)
So I can't agree. We could ask yet I would expect more lies.
dr> What you are refering to are minority theist actions. Their mandates
dr> stem from ecotism and the desire to control and manipulate people
dr> for the sake of control and manipulation.
I don't think it's the minority, though.
~*~ Daddy didn't give affection and the boy was something that Mommy
wouldn't wear. - Pearl Jam
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Internet access
Date: 16 Jan 94 21:41:25
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 081441b7
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284ad8
PID: FM 2.02
#include Questor Thews
QT> AAAAAAAAAAAAUGH! AUGH AUGH AUGH!
FR> A man being subjected to the Total Perspective Vortex?
dr> "No! Wait! What's this switch?!"
"You know; before your planet did the big firework."
dr> [yes, I know it doesn't fit into the conversation.]
This is HolySmoke! Of _course_ it works into the conversation!
QT> TELL me how to GATEWAY fido into INTERNET! I would LOVE to
QT> have this info! GOAT, I would LOVE it!
FR> Questor you ignorant boy slut. Who didn't you sleep with
FR> to get this job, really!
dr> With over 5000 USENET newsgroups to choose from, how the hell
dr> does one find the time to read the 3% or 4% that interests one?!
Beg Star Goat for a list of the message threads that are interesting.
But you're right; there are just so many messages one can read when one
_doesn
't_ have a job. I can imagine what would happen were I to find a job where
I
couldn't have the time to review HS.
dr> I may be missing some important information in
dr> alt.sex.gerbal.ducktape.furry.and.tasty and I'd never know it.
That would be a shame. You could possibly learn something new!
Fer instance: Banana peels.
dr> I'm going to buy another computer, and put The Astro-Net back on
dr> line. Hayes is selling 28.8K modems for $288+ tax and
dr> $10 shipping. I need another 80386 computer with an IDE hard disk.
Sounds grape! _Where_ is it to be put? You need to move out of that place
fi
rst, I would imagine.
dr> I have Maximus 2.02 set up, running FrontDoor and Squish. A few
dr> weeks ago I bought a 340 megabyte hard disk, and I'm running MSDOS
dr> DoubleSpace on it, and the Space Manager add-on: the on-the-fly
dr> disk compression is excellent, and Space Manager knows enough
dr> about files with .ARJ .ZIP .ARC .LZH etc files that it doesn't
dr> bother trying to compress them--- saving time. The 340Meg disk
dr> now looks like a 536Meg disk. With 1Meg of RAM caching the hard
dr> disks, performance is EXCELLENT.
Sounds great! Yet will we find the fun under who consigned you to DOOM!?
dr> The Squish messages do away with the *.MSG files. Which means that
dr> =YOU= will have to convert your message utilities for =MY= use.
I need to add Squish to everything, yep. I _do_ have the file formats already
on The Skeptic Tank. All I need is the incentive.
> I have: 774 atheist files
> 822 evolution and "Creationism" files
> 238 skeptics files
> 162 books on disk
> 491 social/political files
> 136 hate literature files from christians
> 212 "satanic crime" rumor files
> 111 conspiracy files
I could use these.
dr> I deleted the bible because I needed the
dr> room for all of my Satanic literature
A perfectly reasonable level of priorities.
~*~ Let us trust in God who has alway fooled us in the past. - Unknown
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Camels Kill
Date: 17 Jan 94 10:56:32
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2b3
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284af8
PID: FM 2.02
#include Steve Bedard
#include Tony NoseAllah
SB> How about informing us then what the Muslim view of sex is?
FR> That depends upon whether the camel is standing or sitting down.
dr> You're -very- bad.
I forgot about this comment. I should put it into the quote file.
dr> "Nine out of ten Muslims who try Camels prefer women."
I think those facts are grossly biased. }:-}
~*~ If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease. -- Clark Adams
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: "Missing day"
Date: 17 Jan 94 11:04:50
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2b4
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284b1e
PID: FM 2.02
dr> [The make landfall. Lots of begats follow. Fair-skined
dr> decendant rebels and makes war. Son enslaves father. Daughter
dr> of Jared in cahoots with the devil. The wicked win a major
dr> battle at Omar, and god accepts defeat graciously [Ether 9:4.]
The Omar wicked didn't happen to have iron, by any chance? }:-}
dr> Through courtly mechanations, the wicked inhabitants of Omar
dr> manage to kill off everyone but 30 godly people. The House of
dr> Emer survives, the the wicked are destroyed. Hurray!]
Break out the wine and rape the survivors for Allah!
dr> 19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were
dr> elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful
dr> unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and
dr> cumoms.
And there you have it. When elephants were unknown, people who saw them
in fa
r away lands and returned to the ignorant to tell of them were in awe.
~*~ D'you wear a black arm band when they shot the man who said
"Peace could last forever" - GNR
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: That Heat
Date: 17 Jan 94 11:20:33
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2b5
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284b7e
PID: FM 2.02
JC> Ultraviolet radiation causes mutations in all known lifeforms.
WM> I'm beginning to wonder if he's one of those guys who wraps
WM> himself in tinfoil before he goes outside.
dr> possible?" This troubled him deeply, and he desperately needed
dr> an answer. The idea that he could always take off his hat and
dr> discard it apparently never occured to him. Just as he asked the
dr> psychotherapsit the question, another person walked up and says
dr> "Yes they can, and they do! They've been monitoring my dialogs
Did you catch the PBS show on KCET which was about such mental difficulties
an
d, specifically, covered at length a specific individual who eventually
jumppe
d off of a bridge and killed himself?
There is a group that goes around handing out lunches to mentally disturbed
in
diiduals who live on the street because they often end up in hospitals which
m
erely ship them off to another city for treatment of malnutrition related
dise
ases.
One individual who they covered (in length, as I said) managed to get convince
d to some degree that he needed psychological assistance due to his rather
unu
sual psychotic beliefs about people monitoring him. He had lost his eye
glass
es (he said someone stole it) as an attempt to kill him off by getting him
run
over by a truck that he couldn't see were he to try to cross a street.
When he was given a new set of glasses, he kept asking if there were any
trans
mitters in the frame. As I recall, he managed to get someone to 'steal'
that
set as well. At times he would yell at the camera filming him to turn off
yet
I think that the people who filmed these people to try to gain financial
supp
ort to try to help them merely confirmed the mental cases' suspicions and
"kno
wn facts."
dr> If James Conwell wants to believe that ultraviolet light causes
dr> mutation, we can laught at him, but we can also have compassion
dr> and pitty for him--- his belief is very real to him.
It's entirely real, yes, which is why I had tried my best to stop laughing
at
SpinRonald. I think it's okay to laugh at the clowns as that's what they're
h
ere for and they must not be allowed to infect young minds. Yet when they
are
mentally incomplete, my opinion is that therapy by professionals should
be at
tempted.
~*~ If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless. - Robert
Curry
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: DEMON SEEDS
Date: 17 Jan 94 12:06:48
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2bf
PID: FM 2.02
JC> You heathens have been predicting,
sq> "Oh, denigrate me...scourge me!"
Yep. I hope Robert painted another fundi on his monitor.
FR> At times I have wondered whether I could get HEATHEN on
FR> a car license plate. In some states I imagine I could yet in
FR> California it would be considered a religious statement.
sq> I'm looking at DFISH m'self. I'll probably be turned down, which is
sq> when I establish the Church and then try again, citing religious
sq> reasons.
DOPFISH would fit but some might think it means "dope" as in drugs.
FR> sq> 'Oh, scourge me. Cut me with a sword. Make me wear a crown
FR> of thorns. sq> Mock me, and hoist me up on a cross.' I bet
FR> There is a great deal of truth in that, according to the
FR> authorships of a variety of books published by Prometheus Books.
sq> Oh, don't we know it, but I would sure
sq> like some good reading. Got a list anywhere?
As usual, Prometheus Books. From what I've heard of "The Mind of the Bible
Be
liever," that's a good place to start when looking into such mental problems.
Alas, so much to read...
~*~ A religionoid cannot use Dove. Dove only sports 1/4 cleansing cream...
and their myth-gawds demand 100% purity. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: GODS AND GODDESSES ARE ALL WET BEHIND THE TAILS
Date: 17 Jan 94 12:14:45
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2c0
PID: FM 2.02
JCJ> My reference to that friend as a "blasphemous tool of your
JCJ> cunning," now appearing in local taglines, of course referred
JCJ> to _your_ use, and not your goddaughter's, of this friend.
sq> Oh, it's a tool alright, but can you qualify "blasphemous" for
FR> A tool which has been used successfully.
sq> But yet he dares not admit that his make-believe friend is no
sq> different than that of Robert's god-daughter (Gotta change the
sq> name of that title. :).
Strange, huh? Any normal, rational, thinking individual would merely say
eith
er "yes" or "no" and either append disclaimers as needed or not.
sq> Instead, we get the "Many people have
sq> experienced it, so it must be true!" dodge.
I quite liked the "revenge of the nurds" bit. Yep! Part 3.
sq> Yeah? Maybe it was Odin in disguise, wearing the clothes
sq> that Christians created for him (And someone will tell me
sq> that that's silly, I wager.).
No, no. Not at all. Odin was a cross dresser and so was Jesus. I mean,
she
changed her name from the original Isis, after all.
JCJ> Your questions are inane and tiresome.
sq> His evasions are inane and tiresome.
And a single two or three letter word would end RC Query #1. Except that
the
poor individual realizes that, once that one is out of the way, there is
alway
s RC Query #2 -- another question he must not answer truthfully.
FR> Unwillingness and inability. The number of participants he is
FR> unable to face is climbing, I noticed.
sq> It is curious that this potential chauvinist does not address many
sq> of my wife's posts, yet I do not recall her being "hateful" to him.
Well, he never saw them.
FR> soon we'll see nothing but quotes from the classical Christian
FR> mythologies coming from this particular participant.
sq> It comes in cycles. :)
We've had this discussion before about SpinRon. I wonder if there is a
larger
curve or sine wave function superimposed on the wave function. Again, I'm
_c
ertain_ that the data could be made to bear this theory out successfully
yet,
again, my selection for rabidity would be too heavilly biased.
~*~ If accepted I have plans to gather a group of explorers, set out
for foreign soil and tame the savages and goatanize them. - Michael Malon
e
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: CHILDISH AND EVIL BUNNIES!
Date: 17 Jan 94 12:20:40
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 088ae2c1
PID: FM 2.02
> [Derek Maddox, in absentia]
FR> He holds some bizzare beliefs about reproductive biology
sq> For example?
I tole' ya'! He seems to consider giving birth a punishment for enjoying
one
s reproductive organs to their fullest. He has complained that having an
abor
tion of taking an abortuaium is "not taking responsability" when it is,
in fac
t, being a responsable parent -- by not being one.
It has been a long time since this topic came up in A_Theist and, as you
may i
magine, Moderator kept an eye on it. My recollections are doubtless faulty
ye
t to what degree I couldn't say.
FR> yet he doesn't have the overwhelming need
FR> to inflict it upon everyone else.
sq> If only more could follow his lead...
I am of the opinion that the minority do so.
FR> Did you see our slick lawyer claim that Honest Christians were
FR> those who denounced their Christianity to conform to _our_ rules
FR> of conduct?
sq> The outrage lingers on...
It's time to start thinking about whether America can afford to have so
many l
awyers.
~*~ If I do not have a valid argument, why do you
refuse to answer my question? - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: XENOPHOBIA AND REPRESSION
Date: 17 Jan 94 16:53:59
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0890cb15
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> I would call the police if he showed up at my door.
sq> I bet that he thinks I'm joking. I'm in dead earnest. Anybody who
sq> claims that he would have no sense of morality without his deities is
sq> in dire need of medical attention, and I wish he would seek out help
sq> before he shoots up a McDonalds.
Agreement. It is no different had the clown stated that, without his invisibl
e pink bunny slippers every night, he would _have_ to "be selfish." For
any ot
her insanity, such individuals would be locked up and looked after. It goes
to
show just how far-reaching the mind-rot goes.
jcj> This is how they treated dissidents in the former Soviet Union, too.
sq> There's the ol' persecution complex again.
I was wondering where the music was coming from.
FR> This being the case, it would be wise for Steve to have such a
FR> madman removed from his doorstep prior to the possibility of
FR> allowing said madman to give evidence to his insanity.
sq> I would not want him to become a non-Christian in my neighborhood.
sq> Seriously. Myself, my wife, and my neighbors are all at risk in such
sq> a case.
One wonders. I would guess that his insanity is not exhibited before a
judge
or within a court room. I would guess that he knows enough to keep from
makin
g such occult claims outside of here. Any bets that he regrets being so
easi
lly manipulated and exposed?
FR> I also wonder if it might be entirely inaccurate to suggest that
FR> you are not actually a practicing lawyer.
sq> Perhaps a "criminal lawyer"? :)
Redundant. }:-}
~*~ If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease. -- Clark Adams
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: RELIGION OF DAN
Date: 17 Jan 94 16:56:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0890cb16
PID: FM 2.02
mb> You're not, you're a deist.
ds> No, I do not worship a deity.
FR> Neither do deists. We have two known deists in this forum.
sq> One of whom admittedly tends to create "god" in his own
sq> image...shit, creating something this big and then walking
sq> away with a can of Foster's in hand is something that I
sq> would do if I could get away with it.
Create a deity and then claim that it's Miller Time. No wonder
so m
uch beer is consumed in America.
~*~ If I shoot his wife because I'm trying to scare him out of his
hiccups, I haven't really killed her. - Jason Rosendale
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 17 Jan 94 17:00:41
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0890cb17
PID: FM 2.02
DC> real religious. Anyhow, it's rather neat how they take a
DC> collection and place all the cash in front of the altar.
sq> I never noticed that...speaks volumes though, doesn't it?
Oh there's no doubt that money is what it's all about for some preachers.
sq> "Send a donation straight to God, 1-800-TOL-FREE!"
That number was "1-800-TAX-FREE."
DC> You never see a politician placed in the basket.
sq> I'd love to drop a copy of MEIN KAMP into the plate.
Or something from Dawkin.
~*~ We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already
told us what happened. Why do we need further proof. - Derek Williams
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: More DOOM lunacy
Date: 17 Jan 94 17:17:05
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0890cb18
PID: FM 2.02
sq> You will be happy to know that I for one support you. ID made
sq> the game so that you DESTROY demons. I mean, if you had been killing
sq> people to take over the base in the name of Satan, then the game would
sq> have been satanic.
WHAT A WONDERFUL IDEA!!! Get right on it, Steve!!!
sq> Well, as one Christian... ...I do miss hosing Nazis and stuff.
Like my out-of-context quote?
DS> Yeah! I'm with you! Even the S/W version has the Star-In-Circle
DS> symbol all over- the end level is SHAPED like it!!
Clowns incapable of realizing a pagan symbol from a Christian (Satanic)
one.
CB> What did you expect in Hell? Altar boys and holy water???
Another good quote!
?> Are you saying satanic stuff is OK?!?! I'd think that
?> even an atheist would be repulsed by it.
Then he's not thinking.
?> But it's helping to twist the minds of those who
?> play it into consenting to this garbage.
It's certainly helped twist the minds of the believers in 'Satan.'
?> As the shareware screen says, I'll probably go to hell anyway, so why
?> not get to know the place (or something like that) before I come back
?> to make my return visit?
Now that's funny!
jcj?> You're justifying their blasphemy.
Jesse? That you, boy?
?> Not to impose, but you should try reading The Bible. There's no
?> obligation in it to do anything. Just give it a read. It's very
?> eye-opening.
Now that's an understatement!
~*~ The argument from ignorance does not point to a goddess...it
points to ignorance. - Tyler A. Wunder
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Christmas Card
Date: 17 Jan 94 19:10:40
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08920507
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d29aa3c
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> This happened to me when I wore my kilt to work once.
SQ> Amazing what people fear, eh? A man in a skirt, fer Goat's sake.
dr> "Par for the course" in California (men in skirts).
Not of late. If I had known that you clowns were going to hold an earthquake,
I would not have shipped my family back the same morning.
SQ> They fear challenges to authority. :)
dr> We had someone here who was fired and escorted out of the building
dr> because he was antisocial and violent. He called up later and
dr> threatened to crash the company picnic and empty an assault rifle
dr> at the attendees.
Some lawyer who lost his deity, no doubt.
~*~ though we do not accept homosexuals into the church
that does not make us bigots - Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in "morality"
Date: 17 Jan 94 19:22:23
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08920509
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2a024c
PID: FM 2.02
dr> RADIATION OUTRAGE. U.S. government used people
dr> as nuclear guinea pigs. By Deirdre Griswold
I've written this group to see about subscribing to their magazine.
How is it that you acquire copies?
Also, what's the fastest land animal on Earth?
~*~ I'm a lot less judgemental than you. - Martin Goldberg
I'll be the judge of that. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Crustian Coal
Date: 17 Jan 94 19:24:21
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0892050a
REPLY: 1:109/601 2d321eb0
PID: FM 2.02
JS> Scared Good....
sr> Fine. Hope it cured your hiccups.
Joe is a kitten venting his outgage at a ball of string.
He's harmless.
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Bro' Jed.
Date: 17 Jan 94 19:34:53
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0892050b
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d32cc42
PID: FM 2.02
dr> In the universe of Brother Jed, fornication is rampant in the
dr> dormitories, and fraternity/sorority houses are virtual Gomorrohs.
Oh man, I wish! He is of the opinion of many people, though. A study
(condu
cted in Florida, no doubt) which asked people what age group of people engage
in sexual activity the most varried depending upon the age group; specifically
, all other age groups targeted others. They did this because they knew
that
they were not getting fucked, someone must be, so it's in the younger or
older
generation.
dr> In addition, any Brother Jed utterance of the word "fornication" is
dr> accompanied by a peculiar hand motion on each syllable. Of course,
dr> the entire crowd joins in on "fornication".
What fun! I wonder if he could be reached to attend special sessions.
dr> who listens to any of the following: The Who, Led Zeppelin, the
dr> Grateful Dead, the Rolling Stones, Rush, Van Halen, and especially
dr> "that pervert", MICK JAGGER.
Ah, good. "Buns and Hoses" are safe.
dr> "Hey! You in the red sweater! How many
dr> men have you slept with this week?"
"Not as many as you," she said.
-=- This "Brother Jed" sounds like a good listen.
~*~ No need to pity me. Jesus gives me all the help I need. - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 17 Jan 94 21:04:03
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08950607
REPLY: 1:350/401 86252AD6
PID: FM 2.02
DC> I took my aunt to mass Christmas eve.
SQ> Oh, you're hateful!
dc> Yeah, very un-X-tian thing to do, wasn't it? Should
dc> have made her walk the 15 miles to mass. :)
Then set the dogs on her like a "True Atheist."
~*~ "Onward Xtain soldiers"...like the Iraqi army. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 17 Jan 94 21:10:38
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08950608
REPLY: 1:350/401 86252AD7
PID: FM 2.02
dc> If you think this is going in circles, your only half right.
You've taken off on a tangent.
~*~ Look at that mama; she's got it sticking in the
camera! Man.... I wish I had some - D.S.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Mormallity
Date: 17 Jan 94 21:17:05
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08950609
REPLY: 1:350/401 86252AD8
PID: FM 2.02
dc> into one of the groups. From what you are saying, it
dc> seems as if the polygamy, though offially banned by the
dc> Mormon hierarchy, is at least tolerated. Or, are they
dc> splinter groups that do not abide by the main stream edicts?
There are, indeed.
Recall some years back when there were two 'prophets' vieing for political
clo
ut within a Mormon enclaive in some inbred township somewhere in Utah which
ma
de the national news for human rights violations (and many civil and constitut
ional violations, of course.)
This township had one of the old dispossessed 'prophets' still leading
this band of zealots -- the guy in question was into his late 70's and was
bas
ically even more the dottering fool he had been much of his life (though
not,
it seems, quite so foolish as his followers.)
His death was expected but his Mormon cult followship wasn't quite willing
to
give up the ghost and have some other Mormon 'prophet' take over this township
s Mormon cult control. So, as the rest of the idiotic Mormon cult around
the
United States tossed out the old 'prophet' and usshered in the new 'prophet,'
these clowns managed to cut themselves off from the rest of the world whereaf
ter they institutionalized polygamy and had set up a commune where _everything
_ belonged to the old 'prophet.'
My facts are in disorder yet that's what happened. I suspect that there
remai
ns a great deal more of this since, after all, we're talking about a rather
la
te-commer to the Jesus mythos cults.
~*~ No, the reason that you tout it is your conscience an
stand it better then Life from Life. - Ron Stringfellow
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Poof the magic bunny
Date: 17 Jan 94 21:36:09
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fc7
REPLY: 1:350/401 86252AD9
PID: FM 2.02
DK> universe, and how everything works with so little room for error,
DK> one cannot help but wonder if it is the product of engineering.
dc> Seems like the engineer could have done a better job. All
dc> those earthquakes and volcanoes. Sure messes up the neighborhood.
And, to judge by the many astroblems on the Earth, his deities seemed to
have
quite a bit of difficulty providing an environment for their 'creation'
safe f
rom meteors.
Amazing that people can look at the flaws and not seem them.
~*~ First we'll spank your big behinds.. then we'll
twist your little minds... - Styx
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 17 Jan 94 21:57:51
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fc8
PID: FM 2.02
sq> Hwaet, Fredric!
Onzin! (My Dutch is _NOT_ improving; neither my spelling nor grammer.)
FR> Sadly, Master Stokes had fled a long time ago to find people
FR> more, um, well, er, willing? to believe that English was the
FR> language of the time.
Hay! A X-Post! Totally neat.
sq> The sad thing is that, as is the wont with the Fundamentalist
sq> lot, he'll find plenty of suckers who WILL believe him, even
sq> with damning evidence to the contrary (We'll get the tried
sq> and true "Were you around at the time?
Alas, there is a great deal of truth in the words that you did 'speak.'
How m
any participants within this very Educatioal forum we al know and love as,
"Ho
lySmoke" actually believe the same thing?
Or worse? That the psycho-babble commonly refered to as "tounges" means
that
_anyone_ who hears it actually hears it in his or her domestic language?
I'm glad you're around to show the utter stupidity in such claims. I don't
th
ink that anyone else around here is qualified to debunk them with any degree
o
f authority.
sq> How do you know it didn't exist?"
The wee little people? Seriously, there is an idea growing in my
mind
. (No! Really! There is!) Expect network mail. (Or, to be accurate,
expec
ted network mail as you'll have it already.)
sq> Of course, it'll get silent when I ask "How do you know
sq> that the Jesus of the Bible didn't exist?").
As _someone_ is often found saying, "wacka-wacka-wacka."
sq> I am by no means a Germanic scholar -- I've only been interested
sq> in Germanic languages for the past several years, going back and
sq> forth between Old and Middle English -- but good grief, it doesn't
sq> require any more knowledge than that which is imparted in a
sq> freshman English course to know that an allegation of "English
sq> was spoken during Biblical times" is idiotic at best.
We're talking about people who thought that humans had only one language
prior
to one of their myths -- the "tower of Babble" (or something equally silly.)
Is it really so strange that some think _English!_ (for Goat's Sake!) was
the
world language?
sq> Good grief, even in my high school history course we had to
sq> know that William the Conqueror's little trip was largly
sq> responsible for steering the language of the Saxons towards
sq> what it is today.
Well, _I_ don't know diddly about the advent of language other than to note
th
at dictionaries cover the useage and does not set the language. 'And that
wor
ds are adopted and mutated. "Salt, sugar, and <-gasp-> pepper" are all
very c
losely spelled and pronounced the same so perhaps some idiot will look at
them
and claim that this is "proof" of a commpn language. Which it is, perhaps,
y
et not English.
FR> There had also been comments about how the use of English around
FR> the world -- being taught in high schools and such -- was a 'sign'
FR> that the second coming of one of his heros was ever-more-so at hand.
sq> Hardly.
If someone sets out to look for signs, someone always finds them.
FR> second, well... I would guess that a myth can return
FR> reguardless of the languages spoken around the planet -- if
sq> I've been trying to dig up the copy of BEHOLD THE MAN I offered to John
sq> Musselwhite before we moved, but I need to send you a copy as well.
You keep harping about it. Surely I could find a copy if I ever return
to the United States. (If I do; Fascism is growing in the U. S. yet it's
also
growing here in Europe.)
sq> In it, the protagonist journeys back through time to search for
sq> Jesus, and even HE speaks Aramaic (NOT English) to the Essenes
sq> he encounters. In fact, there's a hilarious sequence when Glogauer
sq> (the protagonist) speaks Latin to a group of Roman soldiers, who
sq> are puzzled by his hoity-toity pronunciation of the language (Coming
sq> from someone who appears to be an Essene, no less!).
It's as much an insider joke to me since I lack any understanding. Yet
it's g
rounded in fact. Soldiers are not generally considered the best educated
of a
populace in any culture though I may be entirely inaccurate.
FR> correcting mine. There was much discussion about the
FR> use of the word "pisseth" and the appending of the "eth"
FR> uponeth many words wicheth just don'teth makeths much senseth
FR> linguistically.
sq> Don Martin can probably correct me here, but if memory
sq> serves, that -eth is simply a remnant from Old English.
Which was never in the classical Christian mythologies until, what? the
17'th
century? John Musselwhite could probably set the history straight about
the l
anguage used in the various versions of the Christian bible.
~*~ Any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god. - Unknown
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Even *more* DOOM lunacy
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:06:23
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fca
PID: FM 2.02
CJ> The problem I have with it is the `demonic influence'. It is
CJ> offensive to many and not necessary.
sq> It certainly is necessary. Has Elwood missed the point of
sq> the game? As for the 'demonic influence', it is also inoffensive
sq> to many.
It looks like many did miss the point. Some Christians pointed at the idiots
who denounced it as 'satanic' and called them idiots -- I'm glad to see.
~*~ I still can't make heads or tails or heads or
tails or heads or tails. . . out of it. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:13:04
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fcb
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 050e896e
PID: FM 2.02
jv> Could it be that you are not fully "describing your deities the way
jv> christians describe them", and are instead using a more limited
jv> description in order to provide yourself a more defensible position?
That's exactly what Steve Badard is doing in this particular instance.
The la
ck of specifications about what his deities are, do, and have done, is the
cla
ssical escapist vehicle of theists who recognize that making unambiguous
claim
s leads to the disassemblement of badly-needed faith.
Historically, making specofic claims about a deity kills it in time. It
is no
wonder that theists have to shove them someplace inaccessable in order to
kee
p them safe from fact.
~*~ "Menacing atheists approach! Quick - hide the god, hide the god!"
- RC
"No, not there, they'll look there. Quick, behind the big bang, and
pray they didn't bring Hawking with them!" - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mike Apoc
Sub: Prove A Negative?
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:17:57
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fcc
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d320d9d
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Mike!
Welcome to HolySmoke! Light 'em if you' got 'em.
ma> Greetings, Steve. You were saying to Fredric Rice...
SB> But if you can not prove a negative, how can you prove that the flood
SB> or virgin birth never happened, much less that the Christian God does
SB> not exist?
ma> Simple.
Well, with Steve, it's never quite so simple.
ma> You make the claims, he debunks them.
ma> Eventually, you are left with nothing.
There was a lengthy discussion and eventual disembowelment about a particular
"virgin birth" myth which Steve has yet to admit is as pure to 100% bunk
as ma
kes no never mind. Though myths are at times easilly debunked or at times
re
quires a great deal of effort (many people researched the myth and posted
the
origins and use of the word used for 'virgin') Steve __still__ refuses to
ackn
owledge his error.
~*~ We tend to idealize tolerance, then wonder why we find ourselves
infested with losers and nut cases. -- PATRICK HAYDEN
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Michael Malone
Sub: Mike Warnke
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:27:52
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fcd
REPLY: 1:114/7.0 d32f48d0
PID: FM 2.02
mm> I still maintain that:
mm> a) Pornography is designed to titillate.
mm> b) It is does not matter what the material is.
mm> c) grossly repressed, christians use stories of ritual abuse,
mm> domination, demon possession, etc. in this capacity.
FR> My opinion is that your premises and conclusions has a great
FR> deal of merit. The use of Christianity as a substitute for
FR> sexuality even as the ideologies demand sexual dysfunction
FR> fits in well with your conclusions.
mm> Very good point.
mm> Rome at this moment is feeling the pain of forced exual repression.
Their rather embarrassing problem with clergy sexually mollesting boys and
gir
ls is epidemic, isn't it? Do you have any idea as to percentages or numbers?
The review on PBS called, "Sins of the Fathers" didn't get into percentages
p
er Christian brand name and I would __love__ to encounter such figures.
mm> I would be very interested to know where
mm> the idea of celibacy for jesus came from.
No pun noticed. It __is__ bizzare since the Jesus mythos used
to be
female and, specifically, the Goddess Isis who was the rebirther. The celebra
tion of the yearly rebirth of the planet was remade into Easter which, as
I re
call, is the rebirth/reanimation of the Jesus mythos.
The eggs and bunnies at Easter are the actual origin of the myth. It is
laugh
able that contemporary Christians are at times led to believe that their
Jesus
mythos never engaged in sex when that's what they're celebrating in an off-be
at way every Easter. Seems kind of strange.
mm> Something in the back of my mind tells me that it was born
mm> from papal scandal in the 1600's. If I recall correctly,
mm> that pope had many children that were not the product of a
mm> sanctioned union.
Oh!? I'll bet I could ask a couple of groups who research such things what
th
ey have on it. I'll do that as it's interesting. If I find anything, I'll
po
st it to "All" under the subject, "Papal Bastards."
~*~ Find your peace, find your say, find the smooth road on your way.
Trust you gave, a child to save, left you cold and him in grave.
- METALLICA
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: Ron is a Christian just like you are
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:31:59
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fce
REPLY: 1:106/7512 d181f82f
PID: FM 2.02
FR> And Steve Bedard will not disappear either even as he spouts his
FR> claims that virgin births are possible. So much for failing to see
FR> any theist refuse scientific facts in a stupid (and often
FR> entertaining) way.
jc> Virgin births are possible.
No one here is in denial.
It happens all of the time, James, and is quite common.
jc> Admit it or be declared a "Fundy".
Oh come now, James. It's an honorable label. Live with it and smile more.
~*~ Origin: MARANATHA! NETWORK, KILLING FOR JESUS! (1:102/890) - FLR
I wonder if a Fido Policy complaint against your node would work?
If not, prayer will. - Martin Riley
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Question for the Better Educated
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:41:04
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fcf
PID: FM 2.02
MG> You got me. All objects in free fall will accelerate at 32 ft/sec^2.
MG> there is a maximum to this but I forget what that maximum velocity is.
ml> It's called terminal velocity, i.e., that velocity demonstrated
ml> by an errant Delta airliner before it pancakes into DFW.
You're both badly wrong! Delta usually has its planes at full military
thrust
when their pilots decide that they've had enough of this Earthly toil --
that
is if they still have their engines. (At the last one in DFW in 1984, wind-
sheer set it down; I don't think that the pilot suicided-out on that one.)
~*~ Fundies are proof that evolution is an unguided phenomena. - Marty
Leipzi
g
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:42:52
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fd0
PID: FM 2.02
rc> ... "141, 142, 143, 144!" she counted grossly.
FR> "Argh! Ack! Greck!" he said heartlessly.
ml> "Whoops. I just dropped a running chain saw." he said offhandedly.
FR> "I just don't give a rat's ass," she said carelessly.
ML> "Just look at all that waste oil swirling down the sewer!",
ML> said Dwayne uncutously.
DM> "Space really IS a vacuum!" he said breathlessly.
ml> "I'm falling at 32'/sec/sec!", he said, reflecting the gravity
ml> of the situation.
"I may fuck you now," Tom said stiffly.
~*~ They're not evil, they're just.... stupid. - Spaced Invaders
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: A HolySmoker's Dyslexicon
Date: 17 Jan 94 22:55:34
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fd1
PID: FM 2.02
DC> What happened to X Y & Z? After all, that's the
DC> Church I started awhile back...
ml> I saw little mention of xenobiology, ytterbium and Z ź bosons
ml> from the local fundy populace. Gotta stop somewhere.
That sounds like a problem that I had with Pi mesons. They have mass, read
th
eir bibles, and couldn't describe Pi-circular orbits. No wonder there is
some
thing fundamentally wrong with the universe.
"He hit me in the mouth with an ax!" Tom grinned broadly.
~*~ You're dangerous 'cause you're honest - U2
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: The One True Expert! Part 1
Date: 17 Jan 94 23:11:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fd3
PID: FM 2.02
ml> After the gushing simmered down, Cliff asked him about the relative
ml> dolomitization of the superincumbant strata just below the
ml> nonconformity.
ml>
ml> The silence was deafening.
I'll bet. No crickets anywhere to be had, I would guess?
What you've described is _perfect_. Give yourself and your friends a "well
do
ne," please, from myself with my thanks. You allowed the faithful to do
thei
r own conclusions which is just so very lovely and, more to the point, __ratio
nal__.
I would like to submit your account to SKEPTIC, if I may; the publication
that
comes out of Cal. Poly Tech., if you don't mind. I'll send you a copy of
the
publication or have Mister Shermer forward you some copies if it's printed.
I'll forward this request to your system and please let me know whether
you
would rather not have it published or if you might want some names changed.
It's a wonderful piece!
~*~ Billy Graham has done more harm to the cause of christianity
than any man alive. - Christianity Today (x, no.13, 1 April 1966)
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Idiots
Date: 18 Jan 94 08:05:06
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6a
REPLY: 1:153/826 52c732e2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> mysticism and then demand that they're Pagan. When I heard
FR> Awhatshername say that Pagans and/or Wiccans 'sacrifice'
FR> animals, the immediate conclusion was that she was very much
FR> mistaken and holds not a clue what Pagans do.
a> To point out, I've been pagan for about 10 years, Wiccan for 6, and a
a> High Priestess for 2. I've worked hard at what I do, and if you don't
a> like it and can't deal with it, then go suck someone else's cunt!
So much for addressing any inaccurate comments in my post. If you can not
rat
ionally defend your faulty understanding of Pagani, rather than spout nonsense
and vulgarities at those who know better, try _researching_ what it is,
exact
ly, you're professing to believe in.
So-called "New rAge Mystics" have polluted Pagani and Wicca to the point
where
even claims of "animal sacrifice" is actually believed by some who profess
to
be Pagans or Wiccans. You shouldn't do your friends the disservice of making
such claims and then failing to address them rationally.
~*~ ... Here, kitty, kitty, kitty....
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 18 Jan 94 08:14:31
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6b
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2a3168
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> I see you have learned Curry's trick of repeating questions to
jcj> which you don't like my answers, as if I had never answered, and
jcj> never responding to the substance of my answers.
In the 800+ messages on this system, I seem to have failed to see you answer
R
C Query #1 truthfully. Would you please restate for the court what your
hone
st, rational answer was?
Thank you in advance.
jcj> DO YOU KNOW HOW TO LOOK INSIDE YOURSELF?
Find a good surgen with a video recorder.
jcj> Observe the human condition.
Rather gullible and sadly ignorant for the most part, it would seem. The
requ
irement of a crutch is perfectly understandable yet points to, (in my opinion)
-- not a weakness but to a lack of willingness to learn.
jcj> The evidence is all around you, Steve.
Only for the better educated. Those without evidence try to manufacture
it in
their own minds.
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The Reign of God is at hand! Start the murders of the infidels!
Date: 18 Jan 94 08:22:40
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6c
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2a316b
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> It is time for people to call on the name of God and join
jcj> together in working for God's reign to make things right.
That was tried in the 13'th to 17'th century, Jesse Torqueamada Jones.
It did
n't work then and it certainly won't work now when there are well over 250
mil
lion firearms in America.
Fascist religious zealots who want to "make things right" will have to start
t
he killing __now__ in order to prolong their eventual dieing-out. You can
not
prevent the end of your particular tyranical religion, you can only prolong
i
t by mounting ever more bloody campains against the better educated.
SQ> Where is your Messiah, Jesse?
jcj> Among us. The Reign of God is at hand.
Yep. That's what every generation since three days after the
Isi
s mythos was hung from a tree has been saying.
jcj> Those who follow Christ are called to take up Christ's cross.
Good grief. Religious zealots are faintly disgusting.
~*~ If I prove there is a God, will you shut up? - Stewart Harris
---
* Origin: Just how often _was_ Jesus a boy-toy? (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Greg Nienaltowski
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 18 Jan 94 08:27:38
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6d
REPLY: 1:2410/278 02848aeb
PID: FM 2.02
gn> "My son, if I am wrong, I have but wasted 70 years, 1 life in
gn> billions that don't matter, but if I am RIGHT, you will have
gn> wasted an eternity for 70 years of self-indulgance."
Actually, thinking that there are deities who 'look after' one and worshipping
those deities to gain their favors is highly self-indulgent. More to the
poi
nt, creating thousands of deities to try to give an "ultimate reason" for
exis
tance is highly egotistical and self-serving.
Your atheist friend in the story about would then go on to say:
"Well, father, you had better start believing in two thousand
other gods and goddesses because, if you're just trying to
cover your ass, you seem to have missed most of them."
gn> I'd say it takes at LEAST a lot of GUTS
gn> to be sure there is no God, if not faith...
Not at all. It only takes a continued capacity for critical thought.
~*~ Danger's a drug that takes you higher - U2
---
* Origin: Just how often _was_ Jesus a boy-toy? (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Greg Nienaltowski
Sub: Christian Wrongs
Date: 18 Jan 94 08:32:36
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6e
REPLY: 1:2410/278 02848aec
PID: FM 2.02
SS> * Freedom to share the Gospel on campus.
SS> * Freedom to handout Gospel tracts on campus.
SS> * Freedom to engage in voluntary school prayer.
DC> All the above are not covered by the Constitution. You may
gn> Try substituting 'chess' for Christian and Gospel.
Chess is not covered in the United States Constitution as against the law.
Nei
ther is playing Chess or the game of chess a deity-oriented religion (except
t
o a few.)
gn> without the slightest uproar by the backgammon players. If Unis. and
gn> government s can tolerate these hobbies, why are you opposed to people
gn> practicing their religion in the same way? In what way is what Scott
gn> stated infringing on someone elses rights?
You've launched a "red herring." Dan is not complaining about a rather
deadly
hobby and neither is he complaining about chess. He is merely pointing
out t
hat the Constitution of the United States mandates that the State not establis
h a religion.
Also, Dan is not stating that public school grounds and classrooms are to
be e
xcluded from use by believers in occult mythology. He is stating that the
Con
stitution of the United States dictates that such occult nonsense be conducted
and participated in outside of class time.
SS> * Freedom to be a living witness for Jesus Christ.
DC> As long as you witlessness does not infringe on others
DC> that do not want to partake in your drivel.
gn> Say that to a gay activist.
Explain yourself, please.
~*~ If accepted I have plans to gather a group of explorers, set out
for foreign soil and tame the savages and goatanize them. - Michael Malon
e
---
* Origin: Just how often _was_ Jesus a boy-toy? (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: It's Just Amazing! Seven! Count 'em yourself!
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:01:13
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea6f
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 2d2794d8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Now that's so very strange. Didn't you claim that you had
FR> only one deity not too long ago? Thereafter I listed all
FR> seven of them to which you continued to wine and wimper?
kb> Seven? Could you list them again? I missed it... ;)
I include the concept of "angels" and "disembodied spirits" among the Christia
n pantheon as objects of deification. I might also make a case that there
are
13 due to the confounding of 'Lucifer,' 'Satan,' 'Loki,' 'Pan,' and Prometheu
s' and the confounding of 'Mithra,' 'Isis,' and 'Jesus.' We could add another
for the deity of the OT and one for the NT as well.
I'll settle for four and reach for seven:
o The deity called 'father-OT/father-NT'
o The deity called 'Jesus/Isis/Mitra'
o The deity called 'holy ghost'
o The deity called 'Satan/Lucifer/Loki/Pan/Prometheus'
These are a bit of a reach yet I'll continue to argue the point:
o The deified goddess called 'Mary/Lillith/Eve'
o The sub-pantheon titled 'angels'
o The sub-pantheon of deified mortals called 'spirits'
And if we want to include further confounding of beliefs:
o The Goddess Hel who was confounded with her domain of rule
Christians will complain greatly that these are not 'deities' nor are they
act
ivly 'worshipped.' Some are and some are not yet they are _all_ part of
the c
ontemporary Christian pantheon reguardless of whether they wish to acknowledge
the fact or not.
~*~ Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: Just how often _was_ Allah a boy-toy? (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: You laughed... {sob!}
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:04:02
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea70
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 2d27ac1a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Why don't you just post a general query to 'all' as ask
FR> them if they're here seeking "truth." It's highly probable
FR> that only the occultists among us will claim that they seek
FR> "truth" rather than knowledge.
kb> Truth is what we want it to be. Reality simply is.
That's _much_ too profound for HolySmoke. }:-}
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
* Origin: Just how often _was_ Allah a boy-toy? (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: The Fact And Theories Of didilly squatt
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:16:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea71
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 2d27b5f8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Fact is that which is positivly evidenced.
FR> It is that which is falsifiable and which
FR> has survived the tests placed against it.
kb> Hmm. I'd have to debate the latter half of this.
Oh, do you have to?
kb> That the sun has the appearance of rising is a fact. What
kb> method can you propose to falsify this? It can't be done.
It's quite easilly done. Venus is a quite useful tool for providing all
the e
vidence that should be required to support the contention that the Earth
is re
volving (and that it orbits Sol, by the way.)
When Sol occludes a bright star (Sirus or Vega, for example) or when it
occlud
es Venus or Jupiter, the geometry of the planetary motions in relationship
to
Sol fail big tyme. Occultations observed work perfectly when planetary
motion
s are plotted against an Earth orbiting the Sun and only work well with
a Sun
that does not orbit the Earth.
Sideral motion is also plotted against the backdrop of stars using measurement
s acquired twice a year -- at both ends of the eliptical orbit. We see
the Su
n in movement within the Sagitarius galactic arm, dragging its planets along
w
ith it.
kb> A fact is self-demonstrating. It simply is, irrelevant of any
kb> beliefs, attempts at explanation, or other shilly-shallying.
Believers in a creationist mythology will complain that the creation they
beli
eve in _is_ self-demonstrating.
FR>~*~ The sun is covered in bright green puppy dogs.
FR> Martians have taken over the US government. - Kelsey Bjarnason
kb> I made it? Hmm. A dubious honour, considering
kb> the silliness of the statement. :]
I've _seen_ Nancy Regan. Martians _have_ taken over the government.
~*~ I see faith in your eyes, never you hear the discouraging lies. I hear
faith in your cries. Broken is the promise. Betrayal. - METALLICA
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Atheists can't read...
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:18:50
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea72
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 02802452
PID: FM 2.02
rv> It is very simple. I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence
rv> of any God. I am completely neutral. Unbiased. Objective.
rv> Insufficient data.
jv> Haw! Have you noticed, Robert, how difficult it is to
jv> get a simple "yes" or "no" answer around this place?
Yes.
~*~ Fundies are like the Borg: Separate them from the rest of the
collective consciousness and they malfunction. :)
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Circular... Hardly.
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:22:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea73
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af88c
PID: FM 2.02
#include Akonyte Napellus
AH> Christianity can only be disproven to someone seeking it to
AH> be disproved.
FR> Incorrect. Mathematical proofs do not apply to mental
FR> constructs of unevidenced deities. Evidence is what you're
FR> thinking of, perhaps. And in any event, Christianity is but
FR> one of hundreds of contemporary deity-oriented religions
FR> which may boast of an embarrassing lack of evidence for
FR> support.
dr> Did you see December's _Scientific_American_? "The Death of Proof."
Is that an American publication? (Willfully ignorant trying to complaint
off-
handedly about my exile.) Yet: Nope. SA is quite expensive here.
dr> Either the author was horribly edited, or I mistake what
dr> he was saying, or he was making a case that "proof" is social
dr> even in the numerical context (i.e. your "mental constructs"
dr> above). If it yields results, it's proof enough for me. Every
dr> time I add 2 plus 3, I always get 5.
It sounds a bit like someone had a thesis handly at hand for publication.
~*~ No, the reason that you tout it is your conscience an
stand it better then Life from Life. - Ron Stringfellow
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: drop them from airplanes
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:29:43
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea74
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af8ac
PID: FM 2.02
dr> fundy: The scientists drop them from airplanes.
FR> Now we know why someone thinks there are fossils in the
FR> stratosphere.
dr> What ever DID happen to Ron, anyhow? I had uploaded the facts on
dr> radiometric dating, and how we know how old Earth is, to the BBS
dr> he uses, and he vanished. Hard disk failure?
Hard dick failure. He was rather badly deflated after being so soundly
debunk
ed -- yet - one - more - time. It _is_ very mysterious how claimants fall
"un
expectedly" silent when presented with immutable evidence to the contrary.
I
think it was RC who called it the "Cricket Effect."
FR> What we've got here is - failure to communicate. - Cool Hand Luke
dr> "What we have heah, is a failure to duck bullets." --- Warden
Sometimes having nothing is a really cool hand.
~*~ But when judgement is cast down upon you ... don't forget to get out
your calculator and convert the temperature in hell from Celsius to Ranki
n
units. - David (Christian Soldier)
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EVOLUTION
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:33:00
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0907ea75
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af8b8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> "'While standing under the water canopy, Martin Goldberg
FR> said dryly?'"
dr> It took me -DAYS- to think of that one. Marty was coming up with
dr> new and witty ones every day. The problem with Marty's is, one
dr> has to look up the words in a geology text book to see if it's
dr> funny or not.
It's a good one! I thought of one about geology and cracks but had to discard
it as being __too__ vulgar for the family educational forum we all know
and
love as "HolySmoke."
I later came up with:
"Marty Liepzig, a geologist to a fault, said:"
But that stunk rather highly to heaven.
But I __did__ come up with a good "Origin for Jesus," I think.
~*~ What we've got here is - failure to communicate. - Cool Hand Luke
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Religion of Dan
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:49:51
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 09098fcc
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af916
PID: FM 2.02
dr> and_Other_Essays_ on cassette tape. He suggests that all that was
dr> required for the universe to form was the physics behind the
dr> Uncertainty Principle. I can't a clue what he's talking about.
dr> When imaginary time is used, particles can form by borrowing
dr> matter from the future. The mass of the universe is in effect
dr> ZERO. This seems rather farfetched to me, but would Prof. Hawking
dr> lie to us?!
Virtual particles are _required_ to describe the perterbations and 'missing'
d
ecays of particles, if I read the material correctly. They exist only so
long
as to perterb or interact with other particles to describe the decay tracks
i
n experiments. Mathematically, virtual particles are required. Experimentally
, virtual particles are evidenced.
(At one of the sites here I create 'virtual totes' to carry goods mathematical
ly around the system when I detect a carton no one told my software about.
It
exists for a time and then recombines with itself when the software finds
out
where the container belongs.)
And the decay of a proton is exactly equal to the decay of a neutron with
the
time-line reversed. If the number of protons equal the number of neutrons,
it
could very well be that the mass of the universe is zero.
(BTW: I added a cartiovascular(sp!) system to one of my projects -- two
heart
s and named-pipes to carry 'blood.' On the multi-processor platform, I
run OS
/2 on one processor, DOS on another, and ladder-logic on the third. To
know i
f either processor had died (suffered a heart attack,) I run a thread under
OS
/2 to simulate a beating heart and I expect the ladder processor to provide
a
pulse. If either fail, I slowly drip blood on the screen with the cryptic
mes
sage, "LADDER HAS DIED!" If the processor is restarted, I run a routine
call
ed "reanimate_zombie_goon()" which mops up the blood and removes the message.)
~*~ Look at that mama; she's got it sticking in the
camera! Man.... I wish I had some - D.S.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: If Star Goat doesn't exist, create It
Date: 18 Jan 94 09:51:48
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 09098fcd
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af916
PID: FM 2.02
Oh! I almost forgot. I also make sure Star Goat exists.
In order to know that my project is not currently running on a system so
that
I don't end up with more than one copy running under OS/2, I try to open
the n
amed-queue "StarGoat."
If StarGoat exists, I know I'm running somewhere on the computer so I bail.
if
StarGoat does not exist, I create StarGoat and then allow the program to
cont
inue to run.
~*~ Shit, gotta run. there's data that needs to be faked.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Rice
Sub: Selfish Gene, Sidebar
Date: 18 Jan 94 10:45:41
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090abee5
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2af8e6
PID: FM 2.02
dr> Wearing only shoes and very brief briefs, I rubbed the ashes
dr> of my campfile over my body and in my hair to mask my smell,
Did you stick a rabbit bone in your beard?
~*~ If I do not have a valid argument, why do you
refuse to answer my question? - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Well Folks....
Date: 18 Jan 94 11:15:27
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090b09dc
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d2a2afc
PID: FM 2.02
js> Steve, don't you think that anyone has
js> the right to defend himself/herself.
So your hatred of fags is merely 'defending yourself," is it?
js> I did not fight the man because I hated him. I fought him
js> because he was trying to harm me.
No you didn't. It is a fantasy that took place in your mind.
js> Notice that I didn't turn him in to the MP's.
No one ever does when they make it all up. Witness the dismal (and laughable)
lack of any criminal charges ever brought against self-professed "satanists"
who claim they've murdered babies. Your claim is just like theirs: quite
sim
ply, it (and your man getting arrested for praying) simply never happened.
You didn't file a complaint because you know you're lieing.
js> He would have ended up in the stockade
js> for 20 years if I had done that.
Another latent homosexual speaks out. Your claim is incorrect. The guy
or ga
l would have been ejected from the service for coming onto your advances,
not
"locked up for 20 years" as you would like to dream about.
js> I felt at the time that a person should always show mercy in
js> victory. Even though at the time I was NOT a Christian.
You're no Christian now, either. You're an abomination to Christians, Joe.
~*~ Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
- Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 18 Jan 94 11:17:07
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090b09dd
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d2a2c14
PID: FM 2.02
js> I don't hate homosexuals.
Yes you do else you would not be concocting stories about "we want your
childr
en! we want your children!"
Your hatred is generated by Christian ideologies, Joe. We know it. You
know
it. And we know that you know it. You're a homophobic latent, that's all.
~*~ And I can't be holding to what you got when all you got is hurt - U2
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 18 Jan 94 11:18:54
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090b09de
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 34f4fb72
PID: FM 2.02
#include Greg Nienaltowski
GN> I'd say it takes at LEAST a lot of GUTS to be sure there is no
GN> God, if not faith...
mb> Pascal's Wager. I'd know it anywhere.
Greg may think that we've never heard the fallacy before.
mb> ... Total lack of ethics? Become a Christian lawyer!
Neat! As for me, I want to have Steve Winter's baby!
~*~ For the most part, atheists simply do not do good and ethical things.
-- Jesse C. Jones (the fundy has no clothes)
---
* Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Tag: HOLIER_BIBLE was Added.
Date: 18 Jan 94 11:37:59
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090b09e2
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 008ca44f
PID: FM 2.02
>> Tagname: HOLIER_BIBLE Area Key: HLRBBL
>> Title: HOLIER_BIBLE
>> Description: HOLIER_BIBLE was created due to the great number of
>> false Christian scum echos, such as HOLY_BIBLE,
>> which are spreading false doctrine and are forcing
>> people to worship false gods.
>> Origin: 1:250/820
>> Distribution: Private
I get this feeling that the EchoList is becoming a new battle
ground
for warring Christian factions (though some may call it scum.)
One thing I thought about... Expect network mail.
~*~ NAH NAH NNNah nah.... - Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Styx Allum
Sub: We got us a new one!
Date: 18 Jan 94 11:50:35
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa23
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 01963f61
PID: FM 2.02
#include James Conbadly
jc> BTW: I am saving your quote to show to my Doctor friends (hehehehehe)
sa> Lemme guess... proctologists? Osteolaryncolonists?
Psychologist. This is the one that claims untraviolet light mutates people.
~*~ Furthermore, if evolution were true, evolution would be natural.
There weren't chemist and biologists around 3000 million years
ago to direct it. - Bruce Willis
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Circular...
Date: 18 Jan 94 12:01:15
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa24
REPLY: 1:134/67 2d294ae6
PID: FM 2.02
AN> in fact, if there is any anitchrists,
AN> you are most definitely one of them!
I'm working on it.
AN> sorry that your involvement with Christianity failed you. I'm sorry
AN> that you never receiveed the blessing you once tried in vain to grasp.
jm> Tried in vain to grasp?
jm> I'd like to hear Fredric's answer to this one...
The poor individual seems to be of the opinion that everyone else is rather
li
ke him in reguards to his belief in the Christian stories. If you didn't
see
my rather lengthy reply, let me know? I'll search for it.
Of course the individual has mysteriously grown silent.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Kirby Nixon
Sub: Well? Where did you run off to?
Date: 18 Jan 94 12:23:20
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa25
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2a7f96
PID: FM 2.02
FR> May Star Goat smile good fortune upon you, Kirby.
kn> May the hair on your butt, transmute onto your head. Praise Dopefish.
FR> after being so badly dismembered; rather he's a Steve Winter who would
FR> watch for a reason to file a policy complaint if only the hurtful
FR> infidels would say something actionable.
FR> Is he just as rabid in his zealotry as ever?
kn> More so! But he's been a good little fundy of late.
I can well imagine merely by the network mail that gets forwarded to this
lap
top in Holland. It's like there is but one crazed individual using multiple
n
ames and posting from different sites around the United States. Martin
Riley,
Jesse C. Jones, Steve Bedard, and Steve Winter may very well be the same
indi
vidual. (Joe Save-lie is just too unique to be part of that pie.)
kn> BTW, did you take out your "modem trash" today? }:-)=
I purge my circular buffers twice a day.
kn> His attempts at flaming usually start off with accusing someone of
kn> telling lies about him behind his back and then digresses to "how old
kn> are you, your so immature, does your mom let you talk that way" kinda
kn> boring stuff.
Neat! Projectionism tyme again! Really choice materials are very much
welcom
e as cross posts to this forum and, of course, to my very own growing (and
gro
aning) archives. This individual offers the promise of being another ticking
tyme bomb and I want to get it all on film.
kn> There was a major flaming war that went on for about two days just
kn> before christmas. ALL DIRECTED AT HIM. I'd say about ten people
kn> tried to carve him up including many of the other so-called
kn> christians and atheists. It was quite entertaining.
Great! A little family entertainment before the Winter Solstice break is
nice
to kind of set the stage for the festivals which follow. It's too bad that
I
don't have a direct copy of all of the messages he and Steve Winter writes.
N
ow _that_ would be worth buying.
kn> John Musselwhite had accepted temporary moderatorship just at that
kn> time and the flaming stopped. I got a major chuckle out of it and
kn> managed to delve into a few classic HolySmokisms to add fuel to the
kn> fire. Didn't get a chance to use "...dung clotted serving spoon"
kn> though. That has to be one of the very best I've ever read anywhere.
I can see how John could restore and maintain order. And, yes, that particula
quote is rather, er, um, well, disgusting? Yes, disgusting _is_ the word
I'm
looking for.
kn> Somebody suggested a new echo all based on whoever got kicked off of
kn> Martins MARANTHA NET BBS. I kinda liked the name "PUNTED_134" and I
kn> may try to start one just for fun. I'm not a sysop though so it may
kn> be difficult.
Great idea! You can always ask SysOps in your area or your BOSS node!
FR> Explosivly venting methane for Jesus.
kn> HAHAHAHA !! I've got to add that one to my file.
Yep:
kn> + Origin: FLATULENT NETWORK: EXPLOSIVELY VENTING METHANE FOR JESUS!
Let me know how that one works out when the poor individual in question
manage
s to see it -- before hitting that ever-popular faith-saving "next" key.
FR> Guys like him think we've never seen the mythologies before. More:
FR> Guys like him think they're actually read.
kn> One guy in our echo took him on after Martin posted some
kn> tracts and they were debunked to some extent.
Wow. Putting up the effort to debunk the same stuff over and over again
is ti
me consuming and something of a I can well imagine how successful
such
an undertaking was:
kn> I never read them - of course. Come to think of it Martin
kn> just whimpered *again* when called to task for his spewage
kn> and sulked away.
Neat! Love! It! The poor guy's last comment in HolySmoke (the Family
Educa
tional Forum) was "I wonder if a policy complaint might do it." That was
in r
esponse to my putting "MARANANTHA, NETWORK! KILLING FOR JESUS!" at the
end of
my message -- something like that.
There have been about 40 or 50 variations on the theme.
FR> At times they'll express
FR> bewilderment that the myths didn't convert the infidels on the spot.
Mouth a-gape... "Why are you not begging for salvation now?"
FR> Yet how many infidels know the Christian mythologies better?
FR> What we like to do is to rework the myths into something a great deal
FR> more entertaining. That usually cures a mythology-poster quickly when
FR> they see their myths easilly defiled.
kn> Some of the debunking that goes on here is really a riot. I might
kn> post some of his junk here somewhere along the line just for a laugh.
It is, first and foremost, an educational forum. The entertainment is somethi
ng of a side-effect, I believe.
kn> He has another one of the sheep from his BBS right now posting some
kn> incredible junk which I have crossposted here about Noah's ark,
kn> dinosaurs etc. (perhaps you've read it).
FR> Of course I did! And thank you ever so much!
kn> Ian Coles has disappeared already and Martin has reappeared once
kn> again under the protection of anybody flaming him being "punted".
Anyone asking him to back up his occult claims will be ran from.
kn> I invited him here *again* but of course he's cowering
kn> in fear at the heathens bequest of attendance.
Yeah? I sent him some messages __begging__ him to come back and save us
all f
rom ourselves. Silly me. I though he was serious in his attempts as doing
so
the first time. I must conclude that he hasn't the faith required to drive
t
hese particular deamons out of the better educate -- seeing as how the brains
must be removed, of course.
kn> I might post some stuff about the church that he goes to called
kn> Truth Tabernacle. Apparently his brand of jesus drug (Apostolic
kn> Christian) requires loud wailing and moaning in groups in an
kn> effort to pray. HEY ! DO YOU SMELL POOH???!!!
Oh? I had thought that this poor individual was a Pentecostal clown. The
sui
t fit so well.
FR> Hopefully you'll continue to pass on anything specially interesting?
kn> I'll post the reference under "MOANING FOR JEZUZ" for everyone to enjoy.
+ Origin: MASTURBATORY, NETWORK! STROKING FOR JEE...SUAHHHHS...
FR> I wonder if anyone has ever compiled a
FR> book of such sillyness and published it. "Fundie Follies" might be
a
FR> good title compliments of Steve Rose is a Rose.
kn> ^^^^^^^^^^
kn> He would be another fundy who got roasted in here? Too bad I missed
it.
Naw. Our Rose would smell as sweet. Steve Rose created the term "fundie
foll
ies," as I recall. Another term I liked was "Cricket Effect" to describe
the
silence that fundamentalists create when they're asked a question they must
no
t answer truthfully.
FR> ~*~ Noah was not a Jew. He is the ancestor of the Jews and everyone
FR> else. - Steve Bedard
kn> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
kn> Could you tell me what program you use for this.
kn> It's looks like loads more fun than using taglines!!
I wrote the puppy. It's called QUOTE.EXE and only works on *.MSG message
fil
es. Since you're a point, I doubt that you can use it. Yet if your point
sof
tware creates *.MSG message files, let me know! I'll send it to you.
~*~ How about informing us then what the Muslim view of sex is? - Steve
B.
That depends upon whether the camel is standing or sitting down. - Fred
R
.
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Kirby Nixon
Sub: Alan Jennings and his good works
Date: 18 Jan 94 12:30:49
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa26
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2a7f97
PID: FM 2.02
#include Steve Quarrella
SQ> There have been some choice bits about Dopefish in past WWN issues,
and
SQ> after our team of experts have examined them, I'll repost the relevant
SQ> articles with press releases and such.
kn> You mean this "Dopefish" thing is real???
kn> I thought it was a just a joke within this echo!!!
It's totally serious. Star Goat is also a recognized and legal Church with
me
mbers here in Holland as well as scattered around the United States. I,
mysel
f, am a member of the Dopefish cult as well as an ordained minister of The
Res
tored Church of the Star Goat.
It's quite serious stuff. You should start your own church, too. I can
forwa
rd information on how to get it done legally or you can send a message to
Alan
Jennings (The Bish) here in this forum for information.
In fact, many of the atheists in this forum are ordained ministers with
or wit
hout a congregation. When I had first learned of Alan Jennings' work on
helpi
ng to create secular and non-secular religions around the world for the
high-m
orality goals of spreading religious tolerance, I, too, thought it was a
joke
and I spent two years off and on looking into the history of Alan Jennings'
mi
nistry.
For those who are uninterested in going through the effort of maintaining
a vi
able church, there are many secular ones to choose from and membership in
any
or all is always welcome. The "Church of Elvis" is a good one to join,
in fac
t.
~*~ We're unravelling your clown suit right now - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: All _will_ be washed in the Goat Piss! (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Telca Mousef
Sub: Steve Winter
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:10:18
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa28
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d2c9e96
PID: FM 2.02
DR>> I Love Steve Winter
DR>> David Rice, user of 1:124/9005
And I want to have his baby.
SQ> Note that any mail from Steve Winter to this system will be eaten by
SQ> EXCLUDE. I would rather not be included in his lunacies.
tm> EXCLUDE is a program used by people who don't know or cannot
tm> constructively argue and confront others.
Same ole' Mousefart.
Using a fake name is used by people who don't know how to or are unwilling
to
construct a successful argument to support the artifacts of their failed
potty-training.
tm> Maybe you should try honing your skills instead of hiding behind a
tm> simplistic piece of software. I have posted many times to Mr. Steve
and
tm> he hasn't replied yet.....points to me.
Nope. Steve Winter has exployed EXCLUDE to erase and return _my_ mail.
That
is a point to me. The fact that I wrote the project is also another point
to
me.
tm> Either I irritate him so much that he is hiding from me OR (assumed
tm> in all cases) he has no viable way of supporting his condemnations
tm> with his own main reference, his KJ version bible.
He wants to have your baby. Actually, I would imagine that he conside
rs your posts to not be worthy spending the time to add a line to his filters
configuration file.
tm> Finally, just who is the person that causes you to get pissed-off?
tm> Steve Winter, or yourself? What is it that he believes that you so
tm> vehemently hate or are afraid of that you must use EXCLUDE? Don't you
tm> think you are smarter than him ( if by no other reason than his crackpot
tm> beliefs) and able to mentally whup-his-ass?
You lack a little bit of history, Mousefart. He has been asked to come
join i
n on our little family educational forum we all know and love as "HolySmoke"
a
nd has managed to "watch and wimper," too afraid to say anything least the
hat
eful atheists debunk his occult beliefs.
SQ> Perhaps a text book of the future will include a section on "hateful
SQ> human beings", with Winter being the case study.
tm> If he is blinded by hatred, he makes an easy target.
It's "the sodomizers" he fears, ole' Mousefart. He steps outside during
the d
ay, looks left and right ever hopeful that "the sodomizers" have come for
him
and then presses onward to his car feeling rather disappointed.
tm> You really _do_ have to admire the size of his balls.
No no. The thing to admire is the consistancy of utter hatred.
Welcome back, silly girl.
~*~ your hearts and flowers crap is going to have to wait - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: All _will_ be washed in the Goat Piss! (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Worrell
Sub: Good?
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:19:37
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa29
PID: FM 2.02
dw> Let me get this straight. If I, as a non-christian, save your life
dw> tomorrow, then I have performed an evil act in the eyes of God????
Works for me!
~*~ Daddy didn't give affection and the boy was something that Mommy
wouldn't wear. - Pearl Jam
---
* Origin: All _will_ be washed in the Goat Piss! (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Scott Charles
Sub: FIDONEWS SUBMISSION
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:22:12
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa2a
PID: FM 2.02
sc> finally be assured that jesus lived as a jewish man, testicles and all:
sc> eating, drinking, sleeping, happy, sad, angry, perplexed, loving,
sc> caring, rebuking, full of wonder and fear and longing: man the divine.
And, least we forget, a Mithratic myth.
sc> god bless all those who desire to help others and seek peace.
Inquisistion and crusades are historically reserved for the rest.
~*~ "Ich bin ein Berliner" -- "I am a jelly doughnut." -- JFK
---
* Origin: Shooting people will not make them love Jesus (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Brian Newman
Sub: True colors
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:25:59
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa2b
REPLY: 1:105/69.0 2d2c3b84
PID: FM 2.02
DR> Er, my opinion is that the average Christian biggot is altruistic
DR> in hir attempts to mandate "morality." SHe just doesn't see that
DR> attempt as the bigotry (based in fear) that it is. In other words,
DR> I believe that they actually -DO- have our best interests at heart,
DR> but they do not understand that most of us are old enough to look
DR> out for ourselves, thankyouverymuch, and don't appreciate their
DR> attempts to "help" us. They believe they are saving everyone from
DR> drowning, even though there's no water anywhere. They believe they
DR> "know best" and everyone is less enlightened than they.
bn> I can't believe that every single person is that
bn> dumb, so I must assume that they are that evil.
That is my conclusion as well. The malice certainly is present in each
and ev
ery post from the self-professed 'Christians' in this forum. One merely
need
review Joe Save-lie to see the extreem end of the spectrum.
~*~ Any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god. - Unknown
---
* Origin: Shooting people will not make them love Jesus (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Abacus
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: I AM
Date: 18 Jan 94 13:31:03
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090baa2c
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2b8524
PID: FM 2.02
t> The question cannot be fixed. It is fatally flawed. Your question
t> asks me to weigh or compare the evidence for the existence of God
t> with the evidence for the existence for your goddaughter's imaginary
t> friend.
Just answer the question, Torqueamada, and that will shut him up nicely.
t> I therefore decline, as I have done for
t> months, to answer your stupid question.
"Bravely ran away, away!"
~*~ Deal with it, pink boy. - Crow T. Robot
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Pia
Sub: Printing logged/downloaded text files
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:26:49
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e2c
REPLY: 1:2613/240 52cbd32a
PID: FM 2.02
> How to get downloaded text files printed. I took a couple of
> bulletins off the board via the log command. Then I tried to bring
> them up in WordPerfect 5.1. The message is "incompatible format."
That's error number 401. The error number you're looking for is the error
999
-- the one that says, "incompatable religion, user halted." <-bang->
~*~ I believe that baptism is a good thing,
with a little soap. - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Ciya is behind you!
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:29:12
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e2d
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e5dc2
PID: FM 2.02
Firt you say this:
LO>> I can not concieve a world where God is not there, everywhere I
LO>> look I see God and his works.
And then you say this:
LO> I have no favorite "god-thing".
LO> I don't believe in any "gods".
Which is it? Either you have a god-thing or you don't. Please explain.
~*~ D'you wear a black arm band when they shot the man who said
"Peace could last forever" - GNR
---
* Origin: * Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890
)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:45:52
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e2e
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e8f02
PID: FM 2.02
lo> Yes, but elements that if they followed natures laws wouldn't
lo> be together in the manner they are, if not for a creator.
What prompts you to make that irrational and undeniably false claim? Or
in ot
her words, are you sure you're not quoting from a creationist pamplet which
is
designed to lie to a gullible already-believer in the classical Christian
mythologies?
Hints:
Chemistry does not employ random interactions and
neither do the atomics under the valiance shells.
At the chemical level they follow strict rules of
conduct for formation and exlusion as do the
fermions and bosons at the atomic level. (It is
only under high pressure that fermions find
themselves incapable of exhibiting the Pauli Exclusion
Principle.)
At the organic level, again, mollecular biologically
active sequences follow set rules -- no creator required.
You may choose to ignore the bad designs yet that is
religious blindness and willful ignorance.
Indeed, for there to be 'creators,' one would conclude that such creators
are
bumbleing asses incapable of mixing drinks without mucking it up; a set
of cre
ators, no less, which should be denied drivers licenses simply because they
ca
n not be depended upon to concentrate upon their driving.
What we find are organic conglomerations of a mix-mash of atrophied evolutiona
ry trash in each and every cell of a living thing combined to form a madly
org
anized set of organs _just_barely_ capable of supporting itself in a very
ti
ght little nich in the environment.
lo> I have not yet heard another explaination that works.
lo> Maybe you have one????
Drag your head out of your church and do a little __secular__ reading on
biolo
gy, Len. It doesn't hurt to learn a little bit about that which you are
suppo
sed to be spouting-off knowingly about.
You can not even quote the theory of evolution. Am I right? Or do you
need t
o go run and look it up?
~*~ You apparently want the whacko flowers and light conference
down the hall. Just follow the trail of drool, and check your
soul with Winters at the door. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Goatspell
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:49:24
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e2f
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e9558
PID: FM 2.02
lo> I can find no other satisfactory explaination
lo> for why there is life of any form.
So out of willful ignorance you concoct deities. That's hardly a very critica
lly-minded approach to doing research, Len. There _are_ biologists within
th
is forum who could answer and ask a variety of questions about the subject
to
assist you in your rather embarrassing lack of understanding; perhaps if
you s
tick around a while we can address some of those problems you have with
unders
tanding simple biology.
~*~ Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Ignorance!
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:50:56
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e30
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c10c2
PID: FM 2.02
MG> No faith required? Then you must have some solid evidence
MG> for god's existance. Be the first on your block to provide
MG> evidence for god. Either that, or admit that you area liar.
lo> ere we go again..... I have yet to here of a better explaination
lo> for, life, the origin of life, than that of a creator.
Martin asked if you had any evidence, he didn't ask you to
tell him about what you don't know about biology.
~*~ And as you can see, he's simply not up to badgering escapees
while his severed head is sitting on a plate besides him. - Fred Rice
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:53:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e31
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c12e0
PID: FM 2.02
DC> If you do not need faith to believe in God then what do you need?
lo> Eyes.
Willfully not answering the question when it was asked honestly enough doesn't
positivly assist any comment you might care to assert nor your credability,
L
en.
Grasshoppers have eyes and they do not feel the need to concoct deities
to exp
lain-away that which they do not understand. Some spyders have many eyes
and
yet they, too, don't feel the need to concoct deities.
Perhaps you were merely mistaken?
~*~ The argument from ignorance does not point to a goddess...it
points to ignorance. - Tyler A. Wunder
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 18 Jan 94 15:56:44
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e32
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c13d2
PID: FM 2.02
lo> Life is an anomoly, that is it should not
lo> exist, it must have been created.
Again, what it is that you have such difficulty with that you feel that
life i
s incompatable with existance? Please try to be specific so that your difficu
lties might be successfully addressed.
Also, if you're still in High School, I'm curious whether you;ve ever taken
an
y biology classes, whether they are required, and whhat your teachers might
ha
ve to say about such ignorance.
No insult intended yet you pronounce your ignorance of biology and then
claim
that imaginary superfriends must be the reason. That doesn't sound very
rati
onal, does it Len?
~*~ Freedom to engage in voluntary school sacrifices. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Lee Faust, Jr.
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 18 Jan 94 16:06:26
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e33
PID: FM 2.02
j> As a Christian, I have no place for
j> negative stereotypes of gays/lesbians.
Lesbians _are_ gays. Your stereotype is showing, Jerry.
j> While I do beleive that homosexual activity is wrong,
Why?
~*~ A religionoid cannot use Dove. Dove only sports 1/4 cleansing cream...
and their myth-gawds demand 100% purity. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: I don't mind straights 'long as they act gay in public (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Star Goat loves us all
Date: 18 Jan 94 16:19:07
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e34
REPLY: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39c2d590
PID: FM 2.02
FR> the Star Goat Anti-defamation league and we'll
FR> just see what they do with this Allah
FR> ass-kisser.
jl> We really *do* have an anti-defamation league of the B'nai B'rith
jl> because of the lack of tolerance and even violence from people that
jl> belong to religious viewpoints which dislike us because we think
jl> differently about God than their religions do.
Yes. I've seen them advertized in Omni Magazine. When I tried to get informa
tion on the militant wing, I didn't get very far. (Those were back
some years when I was training such groups how to evade space-based observatio
n
platforms. (One of the mistakes of youth.))
TN>> It is peculiar that atheists have a far greater need to
TN>> ridicule others' beliefs then do Muslims, Christians, Jews,
jl> ROFL. If that was true Jews would have it easy, since the overwhelming
jl> majority of persecutions of our beliefs have not come from ideologically
jl> unaligned atheists, but from intolerant people of other religions.
The guy holds not a clue. He can watch his fellow Allah butt kissers cut
ope
n serbian children on BBC or PBS and still think they're not TRUE Muslims.
rc>> Thank Allah that these Muslims, etc., know better than to
rc>> ridicule, as they launch their jihads to kill and terrorize
FR> Thus our acts are evidenced the higher morality.
jl> Actually, there is plenty of anti-non-Muslim propoganda coming from
jl> Muslims in Muslim countries. You ought to see some of the bizzare
jl> defamatory matter regarding the religious beliefs of Christians and
Jews
jl> published in a typical Fundamentalist Islamic country's periodicals
and
jl> propoganda publications.
I've seen very little other than what various documentaries and (of course)
ne
ws sources choose to cover. When Rushdie was very much in the news, we
got to
look at the insanity yet that's all dried up so far as I can see.
~*~ "In Cyber-Space, no one gives a damn if you scream." - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: I don't mind straights 'long as they act gay in public (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: What is a Christian?
Date: 18 Jan 94 16:21:54
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e35
REPLY: 3:632/515 2d2996d1
PID: FM 2.02
FR> A Christian is someone who believes in the devinity of the classical
FR> Christian mythos titled 'Jesus.'
le> You still miss my point.
Nope. You attempted to redefine 'Christian' and I merely corrected you.
le> Their
"there"
le> is only one important thing in the bible, and that
le> is to treat others the way you would like to be treated.
Incorrect. It's treat them as they would like to be treated.
~*~ The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery
are greased by caffeine. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: I don't mind straights 'long as they act gay in public (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Scott Redmond
Sub: Monkey business
Date: 18 Jan 94 16:26:50
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e36
REPLY: 3:711/927.0 2d2b9903
PID: FM 2.02
FR> She: "Yes, but she's not a monkey!"
sr> Try explaining DNA RNA and Retroviruses to people
sr> who believe men have one less rib than women 8+)
Did you see Len O. admit to dismal ignorance about biology and then assert
tha
t, due to his ignorance, life is magic? Simply amazing.
~*~ A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearanging their prejudices. - David Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: I don't mind straights 'long as they act gay in public (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Trevor James
Sub: Star Goat
Date: 18 Jan 94 16:29:30
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 090f5e37
PID: FM 2.02
tj> Hello Fredric.....
Greetings!
>-> Star Goat for President! Hail Star Goat!
tj> Who or what is "Star Goat"?
Star Goat is the next American president. Oh, Americans may whine and wimper
about it for a year or two yet they'll eventually come to realize that Star
Go
at is the nations only hope of ever getting its act together.
tj> but if its running for president than I suppose that is irrelevant,
tj> as nothing could be worse than the politicians in existance..
There you go! Another satisfied voter in 1996!
~*~ They simply wallow in their fantasies and hope it will
all come true before April 15th. :) - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: All _will_ be washed in the Goat Piss! (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 18 Jan 94 17:33:58
--------
Star:Goat
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 091117e3
PID: FM 2.02
ml> 'Sides, who died and appointed you characters
ml> the Earth's custodians?
Though I should keep my mouth shut, his children will. (Though he'll never
ha
ve any I'm sure you can see what I mean.) Contrary to popular belief, 'it'
is
n't going to last forever. Technology will have to sprint to keep up, in
my o
pinion, to perform mere damage control.
Our city air is getting cleaner and our water we drink is 'mostly harmless.'
W
e can thank our technological advances for that. Yet I don't think we can
con
tinue to keep up.
Yet when I see someone claim that humans are not adversely impacting the
quali
ty of life on this planet (which at the same time raising it in many areas)
I,
myself, must say "GoatShit!"
~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
---
* Origin: Reality's a bitch. (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Hot Damn!
Date: 11 Jan 94 19:12:28
--------
EID:74bb 1c2b9980
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d33325c
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 b49f5f31
MB> On (08 Jan 94) Chuck Dubman wrote to Gary Glunz...
CD> And speaking of the good book, I'm interested in primarily the juicy
CD> parts. If it's not too much trouble, would
MB> someone here mind terribly
CD> compiling an index of the good parts to save time searching?
MB> Purchase a copy of "The X-Rated Bible," and you've got a good start,
MB> neatly bound and ready for your perusal.
Hot damn! Who's the publisher?
Another good compilation I've heard of is "Does My Bybel REALLY Say That?"
(or
so I seem to recall the title). How many recall the part of Leviticus what
s
ez if you catch someone lying with a sheep, you must kill the sheep as well
as
the sheep-fancier? Maybe the sheep implied consent if the farmer was able
t
o get to third base?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 105/30 112/1
128/1
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SEEN-BY: 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 261/1093 1096 1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Endtimes / "Bob"
Date: 11 Jan 94 19:20:16
--------
EID:02a4 1c2b9a80
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d333430
REPLY: 1:109/601 2d304fc7
SR> Hello Chuck!
CD> I'm confused. When exactly did "Bob" predict the World would end?
SR> When the Chiefs win the Superbowl.
Or when Baltimore gets an NFL expansion team?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
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SEEN-BY: 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 261/1093 1096 1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Yule Cards
Date: 11 Jan 94 20:22:39
--------
EID:9fad 1c2ba2c0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a14e01f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6360
DR> Hey, I got to see the ORIGINAL original. Maybe next
DR> year I'll actually stop blushing enough to introduce
DR> myself (I'm shy).
Was she wearing her "Duck" slippers?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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SEEN-BY: 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 11 Jan 94 20:23:38
--------
EID:74d4 1c2ba2e0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a14e2b7
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6368
DR> One young woman walked up to the Creationist after the debate and
DR> said "I've read these twenty or so books on the subject, and they
DR> provide evidence and, to my mind, proof that evolution is in fact
DR> correct." The creationist answered with "But I need only ONE book
DR> to tell me it is false!" and thumped his bible.
The basis of all the problems.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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SEEN-BY: 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: 120 Proof
Date: 11 Jan 94 20:24:09
--------
EID:f717 1c2ba300
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a14e695
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f637e
MG>> Steve Quarrella and I had dinner together last night and
MG>> bemoaned the fact that every fundamentalist that shows up
MG>> in here as the same tired stuff.
DR>
DR> So. What kind of vile potion did you drink? Or need I ask.
Iced Tea. I had to drive 30 miles home, while Esteban and his bride were
a me
re jump aorund the corner. I might add that he had a Rusty Nail. Remember
Ru
sty naylor. We remembered himn and all the fundies that have graced the
pages
of HS this past year or so. BTW, we're thinking about setting up a HS rogues
gallery with the names of the deceased.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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SEEN-BY: 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Hey, what happened to you???
Date: 11 Jan 94 02:44:00
--------
EID:c375 1c2b1580
MSGID: 1:247/133 0603832e
With Robert Curry
Curious how silent the two of you have become. Hector, you've surprised
me.
Just incase you have forgotten, I have indicated that in your last posting
to
me, you admited that there was evidence for the existence of god, which
is the
existence of the universe as a whole. You claimed that "real time" had its
or
igins at the big bang. I pointed out that "out of nothing, nothing comes"
and
that there are no uncaused events. If the universe has a beginning, then
it mu
st have a cause. If "real time" has a beginning, then it must have a cause.
If
you believe the explanations of science, then that is a matter of faith
until
it is demonstrable beyond a reasonable doubt, however, if it remains one
of m
any theories about the origins of the universe, some which include a creator,
and others which do not, and none of them are completely demonstrable as
fact,
then they are matters of faith.
Faith comes from the Greek worrd Pistas, which means "a firm pursuasion,
a con
viction based on hearing." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testam
ent Words)
If you believe in what science tells you, and are unable to prove it as
true,
then you are a practitioner of faith, just like the theist.
Sir Arther Canon Doyle once said that once you have eliminated all of the
poss
ibilities, whatever is left over, no matter how unlikely or improbable,
must b
e the truth. When considering the origins of the universe, if you are unable
t
o prove any one particular theory (Anthropic principle, grand unified theory,
combination between quantum mechanics and general relativity, or god) then
to
believe any one of them is a matter of faith, whch is to say that it is
a firm
pursuasion or conviction based on hearing.
Either way, you have lost the "right" to claim that your position is any
more
logical than that of the theist. (not necessarily the Christian mind you)
Your
s is a matter of faith just like theirs, unless you are able to prove that
the
origins of the universe can be explained without reference to the words
"if"
or "possibily" and clearly demonstrate to all that there was no divine interve
ntion. They, like you, have made a choice of what to believe about the origins
of the universe, and believe it to be true. That does not make their decision
illogical or irrational. Until such a time as you are able to demonstrate
tha
t the universe was not created by god, then to assume either position is
to pr
actice faith. The position of the agnostic is simply "I don't know."
Another point which I feel should be made is in reference to your claim
that s
uch a being is irrelevant. If you really believed that to be true, you would
n
ot engage in the conversations that you do with the numerous "fundies" of
this
echo.
Irrelevant adj. Does not apply to the matter at hand.
If it really were irrelevant, you would not pay _any attention_ to them
at all
. The mere fact that you do engage in conversations with them shows that
it is
perfectly relevant to the matter at hand. In fact, with the amount of attenti
on that you do show to the question of whether or not god exists, it is
clear
that it is very important to you. If it were not, you would not be here
in thi
s echo at all. Religion, proof for the existence of god, and evidence of
the e
xistence of god would not be parts of your vocabulary at all. You would
dismis
s the entire conversation as a whole, and carry on your life by paying attenti
on to the many other interests that you have and would not be a contributor
to
any such conversation or echo.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 11 Jan 94 15:05:28
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EID:bdbe 1c2b78a0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32c058
REPLY: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb77
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Howard:
In a msg of , Howard Harkness writes to Tyler A.
Wunde
r:
TA>> claims yet claim that your claims are logical. Never preach before
anyo
TA>> the choir, as you must only attempt to sway the pre-swayed; you shall
ne
HH> Actually, I have run into cults which claim that the "saved"
HH> are all pre-chosen.
Any relation to Georgene (sp)?
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 11 Jan 94 15:24:06
--------
EID:0c6b 1c2b7b00
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32cc05
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d30b2f7
PID: GED 2.40
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G'day Jesse:
In a msg of , Jesse C. Jones writes to Tyler A.
Wunder
:
JCJ>> _IF_ it is ethical, it _is_ God's work. So an otherwise
JCJ>> ethical act is not excluded from being ethical because it is
JCJ>> disconnected from God. If it were ethical, it would be from God.
TAW>> In your mind, yes. Which is why you are of the opinion that
TAW>> something that is not God's work is not ethical.
JCJ> I understand why you say that, and maybe I'm just out of practice
a
t
JCJ> playing with this syllogisms (I _am_ getting old, after all), but to
me
JCJ> the emphasis is wrong.
Jesse, your bias is interfering with thinking clearly. I have said nothi
ng incorrect: in your mind, something that is not God's work cannot be
ethica
l. How can the _emphasis_ be wrong?
JCJ> I suppose you could say that "something that is
JCJ> not God's work is not ethical" follows from "all good comes from God,"
b
ut
JCJ> it implies, I think, that something can therefore be not ethical _becaus
e_
JCJ> it does not come from God, and that goes in the wrong direction, I
think
.
Now we get into conditionals. If it is God's work (A) it is ethic
al (B). Now, from this you can affirm A to affirm B, or deny B to deny
A, but
you cannot deny A to find any value of B or affirm B to find any value of
A.
You were the one who wanted to discuss logic, weren't you?
Anyway, your "something can therefore be not ethical because it does not
come from God" would be denying A to deny B. That's a no-no, and that isn't
w
hat I was implying.
JCJ>We do not determine whether something is good by first determining whethe
r
JCJ> it comes from God. We determine if it is good, and if it is, then
JCJ> it necessarily comes from God.
So far, you have not demonstrated this necessary existence (hence, I coul
d equally validly posit that if it is good it necessarily comes from Stargoat)
. However, at least you're not a voluntarist (what is good is good because
God
says so), so that's a start.
TAW>> although now I'll ask you to demonstrate it. We know what your
TAW>> position is based upon your initial assertion, but you have yet to
TAW>> validate your assertion.
JCJ> A belief in divine Providence is a matter of faith, and not of
huma
n
JCJ> reasoning.
In other words, it's an irrational belief with no basis in reality.
TAW>> If you are also of the
TAW>> position (as you no doubt are) that All God's work is good, then you
TAW>> are of the position that None of God's work is non-good. As well,
TAW>> this universal negative converts simply to Nothing non-good is God's
TAW>> work.
JCJ> I don't follow you. A (good) is the opposite of B (non-good,
or
JCJ> possibly evil). All A is C (God's work). It does not follow, does
it,
JCJ> that no B is C?
Jesse, I don't know if you're intentionally confusing the issue or not.
Y
ou have stated on separate occasions both that All good is God's work AND
that
All God's work is good. No non-good is God's work does not follow from
All g
ood is God's work, BUT IT DOES FOLLOW FROM ALL GOD'S WORK IS GOOD, which
is a
position that you have forwarded (you've proposed both).
However, one more time for the home audience, let's do this one: 'A' shal
l be good; 'C' shall be God's work.
1) If you are of the position that All C is A (look up 17 lines, and read
that this IS what we had been discussing), then by obversion you are also
of
the position that No C is non-A.
2) No C is non-A converts simply to No non-A is C.
Hence, someone who posits that All God's work is good is of the position
that Nothing non-good is God's work.
JCJ>> I have trouble answering the question, because I cannot fathom a
JCJ>> world without God.
TAW>> That's an excuse, and not a justification. Argument from
TAW>> incredulity (I can't imagine it any other way) is not a valid
TAW>> argument.
JCJ> I don't mean it as incredulity. I mean only that God is so central
JCJ> to my life and thought that I have forgotten how to think about a world
in
JCJ> which God does not exist.
Then it's ignorance. "I cannot fathom X" does not make not-X so.
JCJ> Pardon my medical ignorance in looking for an
JCJ> analogy, but how would a doctor begin to analyze a world in which life
d
id
JCJ> not need sustenance. How would a scientist deal with a world without
JCJ> atoms, or gravity? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm just not
up
JCJ> to the task.
Jesse, these analogies are not valid and you know it. As your God is und
emonstrated, choose an analogy which involves some undemonstrated facts.
How a
bout, "How would a Tarot-card reader analyze a world in which prescience
didn'
t work?" Or, "How would a douser analyze a world in which his abilities
were
fraudulent?" Those are much more accurate analogies.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: All
Sub: two days hence
Date: 11 Jan 94 15:57:16
--------
EID:9f46 1c2b7f20
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32cc9c
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day All:
My hard drive is going in for a fixing in two days. I won't miss any mai
l as it'll just sit around on my pointop's drive, waiting for me, but it
might
take a while for me to respond to stuff. Then again, given the speed of
echo
mail, you may never even notice that I was down...
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Atheists do good
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:00:54
--------
EID:2c2a 1c2b8000
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32cd95
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 030ac3b5
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Tyler A.
Wunder
:
taw>> Well, off the top of my head, I give money to street-people.
FR> Amazing, isn't it, that handing money to people living on the street
is a
FR> fairly common thing for atheists to do?
Not really. It's only the goodness that flows to us through [insert your
favourite non-falsifiable entity whom you elect as the source of good].
Currently listening to O Fortuna, incidentally. I wonder if this means
I
'm no longer empty :)
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proof
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:03:06
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EID:2fbc 1c2b8060
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32d105
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306caa
PID: GED 2.40
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G'day Dave:
In a msg of , Dave Keeton writes to David Worrell:
DW>> I am rather certain of his non-existance. There is _no_ evidence for
DW>> His existence, therefore I do not waste my time "believing" in Him.
DW>> If you can come up with some evidence, maybe I'll change my mind...
DK> If I were to offer you with what I consider proof, you wouldn't
DK> accept it anyway.
If I were to offer you with what I consider to be proof of your God's non
-existence, you wouldn't accept it anyway.
Handy method of dodging the request for substance, isn't it?
DK> To prove something existential in our realm
DK> of the five senses, is impossible.
Marvellous (one 'l' or two?). So I can posit the existence of anything
e
xistential, and proclaim that I am justified in not proving it because it's
be
yond our five senses? Am I also justified in 1) not demonstrating that
existe
ntial existence is possible and 2) not demonstrating that my entity is existen
tial?
DW>> No, I don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution is a fact. I believe
the
DW>> Theory of evolution is at least a good approximation of what
DW>> happened.
DK> Well, which is it? a theory or a fact?
Both. The theory of evolution explains the fact bit. THAT evolution has
occured is fact (as well, apparently natural selection has been revealed
to b
e fact as well), HOW it happened is the theory bit.
To think of it in another way (that you can think clearly on because you
don't feel it threatens your religious views), gravitational theories attempt
to explain/describe the facts of gravity. Similarly, evolutionary theories
at
tempt to explain/describe the facts of evolution.
DK> It is most certainly not
DK> a FACT, although as of the last few years, it has been taught
DK> in public schools as fact.
Sorry. You're wrong. With luck, those with more scientific knowledge th
an I will be bringing this (rather forcefully) to your attention.
DK> Anyone willing to have an open mind
DK> and do a little research into the very fields that you like to
DK> quote from for your evidence, will doubtless find that the
DK> parameters for life to exsist on this planet leave little margin
DK> for error, and how all of these things point to a Creator.
Tell me Dave, what "little research" have you done? Please, fill me in.
And how has this "research" led you to a creator? Judging from your above
com
ments, you have done no looking into the design argument, and its related
fall
acies.
DK> I am not trying to "save you" nor am I able to if I would like
to.
DK> I am merely pointing out that not everyone swallows the lie that
DK> we came from monkeys, and I have already answered the remark
about
DK> proving that God exsists.
As I understand it, this _is_ a lie. Evolutionary theory does not sugges
t that we came from monkeys any more than biology suggests that we come
from o
ur brothers and sisters (or cousins, perhaps). The lie exists, but it's
propo
gated by your SciCreationist masters, as they try to make you believe evolutio
nary theories say things which they in fact do not.
Perhaps in your "research" you could look into what a straw-man argument
is.
DK> And as the debate rolls on, more and more credible scientists
DK> are standing up and being counted in the ranks of Creationists.
True. It's an interesting phenomenon (just read a history of the SciCrea
tionist movement), although I would point out that even if ALL credible
scient
ists considered themselves Creationists, it would not lend your position
any m
ore validity. Evidence grants it validity, not membership.
A thousand credible scientists who believe in the existence of fairies an
d elves are still (until they produce some evidence) a thousand fools.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Mike Staab
Sub: ?
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:46:30
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EID:e772 1c2b85c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d32d803
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to All Or Anyone:
MS> Hello, I'm new to this echo and would be interested in discussing anythin
g
MS> related to religion. I'm a Christian and am letting you know this up
fron
t.
MS> I don't like to play games, but do enjoy sound reasoning. Anyone
MS> interested?
Sure. Do you consider your Christian theism to be reasonable/rational?
---
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From: Brian Newman
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 09 Jan 94 23:10:51
--------
EID:3258 1c29b940
MSGID: 1:105/69.0 2d312ffe
With Joe Schultz's help, Brian "Gorby" Newman
used Real unconvincing evidence to foil the coup.
JS> Now, for my personal definition of God: "Any one/thing smarter/
> stronger than I."
BN> This statement translates into this sequence of logical statements:
> God is anyone smarter than I God is anything smarter than I
> God is anyone stronger than I God is anything stronger
> than I.
JS> Greetings Brain. You may translate my sentence any way you so choose.
JS> I meant it the way I described it. However, for this exercise, I will
JS> allow for yours, though I see no reason why logic should be injected
JS> into this rather infantile vitriolic conference. (Yes, I make
JS> an appearance here once in awhile for the purpose of conversing with
JS> your baby sitter.)
Why, thanks. :) I was wondering where she/he/it had gotten off to.
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
BN> Yet, gravity is stronger than you and is therefore God, according to
> your logical statement. Your statement implied ORs, not ANDs.
JS> How dare you accuse me of being logical! I warn you: You are on thin
JS> ice! I implied nothing; I stated what I meant.
I plead ignorance. :) I had no idea that you were an illogical being.
JS> But then, I am too
JS> stronger than gravity. I prove this every time I walk upstairs.
By yourself, you could not defeat gravity in that way. Sure, you could
jump
up, but you would come down. In your example, it is the stairs which give
you
the ability in question.
JS> You must
JS> learn to over- come gravity. It is plain to see you have never had an
JS> erection.
Oh, I see. How do you know this? I have certainly had more than my share,
although it is the lightweight quality of the penile tissue which allows
this,
resulting in a small pull by gravity which is easily overcome. Are you
saying
that a fly is stronger than the entire planet's gravitational pull, even
though the fly is small and light and therefore not affected by gravity
as
much as a human is?
BN> See above. Van der Waal's force is stronger than you are and is
> therefore God.
JS> See above. There is no force I am not able to overcome. Your
JS> ignorance comes close though.
I wish I could say the same; your insults are very easily overcome.
BN> And, since anyone stronger than you is God, Arnold Schwarzenegger is
> God.
JS> You've been watching too many violent flicks, young fella. I happen
to
JS> be 230 pounds -- 32 inch waist -- 23 inch biceps -- 69 inch chest --
JS> with an ability to deadlift 2300 pounds. I will agree that Arnold
has
JS> made some better business investments than I have...lately. However,
I
JS> gave him his first break in this country: I permitted him to read my
JS> doctorate disser- tation on the philosophy of physics. For this
JS> breech of truth, you will have to take down all of your A.S. posters.
JS> You are not worthy to gaze upon his second-rate body. And...before
JS> venting your anger at me, let me warn you. I am a master in
JS> psychological black magick. I have the power to lock you in one of
JS> Chapel Perilous' 50 Chambers for eternity! You, of course, will
JS> challenge me on this. It will be very unwise of you to do so.
Pardon me. I guess you *are* God. :) (albeit a very strange one)
... If I promise to miss you, will you go away?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Council Of Nicea
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:10:32
--------
EID:b49a 1c2a8140
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 84615db6
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae555
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> The Bible is a compendium of writings that have been dug up. They
SB>
SB> MB> were voted on as being canon by the Council of Nicea, which was
SB> MB> Catholic (there was no other Gentile church at that time). The
SB> MB> Council of Nicea agreed for whatever reasons of their own that
SB> MB> the writings that we call "The Bible" were inspired by God and
SB> MB> contained some kind of indisputable "truth" regarding the Mind
SB> MB> of God.
SB>
SB> I think you mean protestant rather than gentile.
I'm not an idiot! I meant exactly what I said. At the time of the
Council of Nicea, there WAS NOT OTHER GENTILE CHURCH EXCEPT THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH (or at least none that survived that Council). There
were Christians, and there were Jews. Period. And that's exactly what
I was saying. The Council of Nicea pretty much established the
Christian Church as an entity. Prior to that there was no agreement as
to what was canon, what was Jesus' intent, or what form worship would
take. The Council of Nicea (and the establishment of the Catholic
Church changed all that. The only pre-Council church that survives
outside of the RCC is the Orthodox. All the rest of them are hardly a
glimmer of memory in anybody's mind, except for a few academics.
SB> Gentiles are non-Jews
SB> and most Christians at this time were non-Jews. The reason that the
SB> council chose the books they did was that these were the letters that
SB> had been generally accepted as true right from the beginning of the
SB> church.
I suggest you read something on the subject ouside of the apologetics
of your own denomination. You are dead-assed wrong. No doubt about
it. To begin with, there are many sources that have been found since
that have at least as much authenticity as what has been declared canon
by the C of N, and in the second place, there is not consensus among
the various Christian sects even today as to what is canon and what
isn't. In the third place, there is much contradiction and
disagreement among those books that have been declared canon by the
C of N.
... Flying is the 2nd greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first!
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:17:50
--------
EID:b844 1c2a8220
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 991aa63d
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae556
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB>all
SB> MB> by himself. Your god definitely DOES believe in killing those who
SB> MB> sleep on the wrong side of the bed, and often tells his followers
SB> to
SB> MB>go
SB> MB> out and kill people for being "etc." You are either a liar or
SB> MB>terribly
SB> MB> uninformed about the religion you profess.
SB>
SB> God did not give the Israelites general permission to kill all
SB> nonbelievers.
I see. So the halocaust wasn't evil because not all the non-Christians
were killed. Interesting perspective.
Genocide in the name of religion (or god) is evil, no matter what
justification is given. If a human being gave the same order as your
god, he'd be immediately declared an evil lunatic. But when you god
issues the order, he's a good guy in a just cause. Interesting
perspective. Not one that I share, and hardly one that can be
supported by anybody with a decent code of ethics or a conscience.
... "Nothing spoils fun like finding out it builds character." |
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Jesus
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:21:53
--------
EID:ecce 1c2a82a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 69524075
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae558
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> SB> MS>Who lives? Do you mean Jesus? Because he never lived
SB> MB>before.
SB> MB> SB> MS>He was
SB> ^^^^^^
SB> MB> SB> MS>an update to several pagan myths and there is no historical
SB> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SB> MB> SB> evidence
SB> ^^^^^^^^
SB> MB> SB> MS>of his existence.
SB> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SB> MB> Of course there is historical evidence of Jesus' existence.
SB> MB> Nobody here has ever said otherwise.
SB>
SB> Nobody eh? Could you please read the underlined sentence by Marshall
SB> Shapiro?
I suspect you are misreading what Marshall said, although I would not
presume to speak for him. There are two Jesuses. One is the historic
figure of Jesus, the other in the mythologized figure that we know
today. The former existed; the latter didn't. It's like the story
about George Washington and the cherry tree. Although it makes a good
story, there isn't a word of truth in it. That Washington lived is
indisputible; that he was like we have been taught he was is, to say
the least, unlikely. Jesus is the same way. Few people will say that
he did not exist, but only the most literal-minded fanatic really
thinks that every word of every account of him is accurate. Stories
have a tendency to get better with each telling, and when the person
about whom the story is being told is bigger than life to begin with,
that tendency increases exponentially. One must strip away many layers
of storytelling style, mythologizing, and projection of the gospellers'
theology in order to find the real Jesus.
I suggest you read two books to get a better understanding of what I am
talking about. The first one is called "The Lost Gospel: The Book of
Q and the Beginnings of Christianity" by Burton Mack, and the second
one is called "The Five Gospels," by the Jesus Seminar. Maybe then you
will see the difference between Jesus the Man and Jesus the Myth.
SB> MB> As a matter of fact, TWSS is nothing more than a
SB> MB> bowdlerization of Shakespeare, truth by known, just as the Bible
SB> is
SB> MB> nothing more than a bowdlerization of many ancient myths and
SB> legends
SB> MB> from many earlier civilizations and cultures.
SB>
SB> That is your opinion but not neccesarily fact.
Fact supported by much independent biblical scholarship, but not
necessarily supported by those clergy whose livelihood rests on their
inability to say "I was wrong."
... Ol Hawaiian Saying: One man's meat is another man's poi, son.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: God
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:29:41
--------
EID:1069 1c2a83a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 dcf97459
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae559
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> SB> If you don't mind me asking, what are the reasons for these
SB> MB>opinions?
SB>
SB> MB> Well, since I've made several statements, I'll either have to
SB> ignore
SB> MB> your question, or else give you several answers. I'll take the
SB> MB> statements one at a time.
SB>
SB> MB> > I don't necessarily believe there is no god.
SB>
SB> MB> First we would have to define "god" to our mutual satisfaction.
I
SB> MB> doubt if we could do that. My concept of "god" and yours are
SB> MB>totally
SB> MB> different.
SB>
SB> My concept of God is of a Divine Creator.
That's your definition of god, not mine. Mine, like I said, is really
quite different.
... Is it illegal to yell "MOVIE" in a crowded firehouse?
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:30:39
--------
EID:ec0e 1c2a83c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 154aacb5
REPLY: 1:247/133 048c07eb
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB>
SB> MB> "Prove is a pretty strong word, though. Since I have not been to
SB> MB> every square inch of the moon simultaneously, I cannot absolutely
SB> MB> prove that there are no human beings there.
SB>
SB> However, there is a level of evidence that comes so close to proof
SB> that the difference is negligible, would you agree?
If you mean "human beings" in the same sense are we are human beings, I
would have to agree. The atmosphere hardly lends itself to human life.
But I have no way of knowing if there is some life form that thrives in
that environment, for the reasons I stated earlier. Just as we survive
with oxygen etc., there may very well be a life form on the moon that
survives quite nicely in that environment. I can only say for an
absolute fact that there are none in the parts of the moon that "we"
have visited.
... Man cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Question
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:36:42
--------
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REPLY: 1:247/133 048d7a74
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
SB>
SB> MB> Where in the Bible does Jehovah give Man a recipe for an
SB> MB>abortificient?
SB>
SB> Numbers 5:11-31 is probably what you are talking about but it is not
SB> meant to cause abortions but to test a wife for adultery.
No, it was meant to cause an abortion as proof of adultery. It was an
abortificient, no matter how you slice it.
... Is "tired old cliche" one?
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:42:50
--------
EID:cb9a 1c2a8540
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 0019607d
REPLY: 1:247/133 048d7a75
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> The MOST CONTEMPORARY (to Jesus) gospel was written at least 30
SB> MB>years
SB> MB> after his death, and probably later than even that. Paul never
SB> knew
SB> MB> Jesus, in fact, did not live during Jesus' lifetime (unless you
SB> MB> subscribe to the Barbara Theiring school, which asserts that Jesus
SB> MB> lived into his 70's, had three kids and two wives). Sometimes the
SB> MB> ignorance of these fundies is beyond my ability to comprehend.
SB> The
SB> MB> only thing they "know" about the Bible is what their
SB> MB> preecher-puppetteer "friends" have told them, and most of that was
SB> MB> passed down via other preecher-puppetteers.
SB>
SB> Ignorance of non-Christians is also sometimes beyond comprehension.
SB> Paul did indeed live during Jesus' lifetime since he was converted
SB> only a few years after Jesus death. I could also argue that Paul
SB> did meet Jesus in Acts 9:5 but I won't get into that.
Paul did not write Acts. Acts is primarily about two of Jesus'
original disciples, Peter and John, and of Paul who was not one of the
original twelve, although he considered himself to be an Apostle.
Biblical scholars generally agree that Acts was not written by Paul,
but rather by the same person who wrote Luke. It is possible that
Luke, an associate of Paul, did write these mterials, but there doesn't
seem to be any agreement about this matter. Most scholars date Acts ag
A.D. 80-85, or as late as 92.
So the Book of Acts of the Apostles was not written by Paul, was not
written during Christ's lifetime, and was, at best, hearsay insofar as
it accounts of events and persons were concerned.
You can call me a lot of things, Steve, but ignorant is not one of
them. Lay off the ad hominem, and you'll get a more receptive ear and
a better quality of response from me. I can flame with the best of
them, if you insist.
... Convert or Kill: It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:48:04
--------
EID:cb9a 1c2a8600
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 adcdd220
REPLY: 1:247/133 048d7a78
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB>a
SB> MB> question of attitude, and only obliquely deals with behavior as
a
SB> MB>by-
SB> MB> product of that attitude. The poor in spirit, the pure in heart,
SB> MB>the
SB> MB> peacemakers -- all deal directly with the spirit.
SB>
SB> It does make a big difference. You say that they picked the books
SB> that would help them keep the political power they had. Yet, the
SB> books were mostly accepted while they were still being persecuted.
If that is precisely what I said, I misspoke. I should have said that
they accepted those books (and the interpretation of those books) that
was most likely to FURTHER their power. Power corrupts, and many men
have lusted for power, including the heads of the Catholic Church.
SB> MB> That is one of the main reasons why I could NEVER call myself a
SB> MB> Christian. I have absolutely no problem with the words of Christ,
SB>
SB> MB>but
SB> MB> have one helluva problem with the authoritarian overlay that the
SB> MB> contemporary churches have put on those values, thanks to that
SB> MB>woman- and sex-hating bigot named Saul.
SB>
SB> While I disagree with your characterization of Paul, what stops you
SB> from becoming a Christian who only accepts the words of Christ?
SB> The way of salvation is explained in the Gospels.
I will tell you my views as I see them; I will not characterize those
views with a label. I don't call myself Christian, deist, or anything
else except "atheist." I have my own reasons for calling myself an
atheist, and those reasons are none of your business.
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Religon
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:52:21
--------
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On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB>
SB> MB> SB> MB>Yes. Theya are also all false. Being very complex belief
SB> MB>systems,
SB> MB> SB>
SB> MB> SB> MB>they
SB> MB> SB> MB>each have a little of truth about them, and much of
SB> falsity.
SB> MB> SB>
SB> MB> SB> Do you have evidence that all religons are mostly false or is
SB> it
SB> MB>only
SB> MB> SB> your opinion?
SB>
SB> MB> Since they all claim to the the Truth , and they all differ,
SB> MB> it is only logical to conclude that they are all mistaken in one
SB> MB> way or another.
SB>
SB> There is another alternative. All may be false except one.
Highly unlikely. Given the number of flat-out statements in the Bible,
the number of ccontradictions there are among them, and the number of
ways each statement can be interpreted, the likelihood of one sect
getting all of the possible permutations exactly right is infinity.
... Man who farts in church, sits in own pew.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:54:07
--------
EID:6f7b 1c2a86c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 2f537e4a
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On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> I have shown no interest in immunology but I assume Martin has an
SB> interest in religon by his presense in this echo. However, I
SB> believe I have made my point that it is not idiotic to believe that
SB> someone interested in religon would have looked into books that
SB> differed from their personal
Rather than assume you have a handle on Martin's reason for being here,
wouldn't it be better to ask him? And, given the number of "other
religions" there are in this world, why rag on him because he did not
choose to investigate a specific one? Maybe he's an expert on
Hinduism, for all you know.
And, possibly he is in this conference because he likes showing the
fundies how ignorant they are about HIS area of expertise, and not
because of an interest in religion at all.
... The first rule of tinkering is to save all the parts.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 10 Jan 94 16:56:30
--------
EID:23b4 1c2a8700
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 69c15658
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On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SB> MB> Having a different mode of behavior in different situations is
SB> MB>called
SB> MB> "situational ethics." According to all the Christians I've talked
SB>
SB> MB>to,
SB> MB> SE are antithesis to a Christian value system. How come it's okay
SB>
SB> MB>for
SB> MB> your god to have situational ethics, but when his follower have
SB> MB>them,
SB> MB> he fries them forever?
SB>
SB> God does not have situational ethics. His ethics never change, but
SB> this does not mean that He must have the same reaction no matter
SB> what the circumstances.
Steve, old boy, I don't know how to break this to you, but that is the
definition of situational ethics.
... We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 10 Jan 94 18:46:00
--------
EID:ec0e 1c2a95c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 48fb4696
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae54a
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Tyler A. Wunder...
SB> TA> JW>> 2. Exodus 20:2-17
SB> TA> JW>> 3. Deuteronomy 5:6-21
SB> TA> SB> This is the same list as Exodus 20:2-17. What's the problem?
SB>
SB> TA> Depends what his point was. Although I did not read both
SB> TA>passages in
SB> TA>their entirety, they seemed to be identical in content, but not in
SB> TA>form (the
SB> TA>wording, although very similar, was not identical).
SB>
SB> Just because they may not be identical in wording, does not mean that
SB> they are two different sets of Ten Commandments as was being suggested.
There's more in question that a mere difference in wording. To begin
with, there are many more than ten. In the second place, you think
they mean what you've been told they mean, but the words say something
quite different in some instances. Take for example, the first
commandment.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
It does not say that we may have no other gods, it says that none can
come before Him. In other words, we can have gods that are his equal
in our own minds, and gods that are inferior to him; we just can't have
gods that we put before him. Since at the time that these words were
written, the culture had an entire pantheon of gods, he was simply
expressing a "me first" attitude and nothing more.
There are many more than 10 commandments. The fact that the Christian
community has brainwashed you into thinking in terms of a decalogue
does not change the facts. Some of the commandments that get ignored
are:
11. An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your
burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in
every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you
and bless you.
12. And if you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of
hewn stones; for if you wield your tool upon it you profane it.
13. And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that you nakedness
be not exposed on it.
14. If any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye
for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
15. If a man smite the eye or tooth of his servant or his maid and
destroy it, then shall he let him go for his eye's sake [or tooth's
sake].
16. If an ox ogre a man or woman that they die, the owner of the ox
shall be acquitted. But if the ox were wont to gore in time past, and
it hath been testified to the owner, and he hath not kept him in, and
he hath killed a man or woman, then shall the ox be stoned and the
owner put to death.
17. If a man shall deliver unto his neighbor money or stuff to keep,
and it be stolen out of the man's house, if the thief be found, he
shall pay double.
18. And he that stealeth a man and selleth him, or if he be found in
his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
There are many more, but you get the idea. Doesn't the Bible say
something about the penalty for changing even one dot or one tittle?
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you built and altar and
sacrificed a sheep or oxen on it, being ever careful not to expose your
balls in the process?
There are many other commandments in those two portions of scripture
that get entirely ignored by all contemporary Christians. I'm sure
they justify ignoring them, but they ignore them, nevertheless. THAT
is the important thing: they are ignored by those who claim piety as a
way of life.
On top of that, the so-called ten commandments were stolen from the
Code of Hammurabi, which was written about 1800 BC, which was several
centuries before the time of Moses.
There are, of course, other problems with Exodus that the True
Believers seem wont to ignore. Beginning at verse 11 of chapter
1, we find one of several instances whre, beyond the slightest question
of ambiguity of interpretation, it is clearly stated that Jehovahwas
not angered by an instwance of murder but actually rewarded the
murderer.
Also, the story of Moses in the bullrushes bears a striking resemblance
to the account of the infancy of King Sargon of Akkad, who ruled
Mesopotamia toward the end of the third millennium BC. It was written
that Sargon was put into a basket made of rushes and that it was sealed
with pitch and set adrift on a river. An important person discovered
the infant and, Sargon reports, "took me as his son and reared me."
Steve, whether you want to admit it or not, the inerrantists and
literalists have a REAL problem. Even a cursory study of ancient
writings outside of the Bible, coupled with a critical eye toward the
dates that those accounts were written, confirms incontrovertably that
much of the text in your holy book was plagarized from other sources
that predated it by hundreds -- and in some cases thousands -- of
years.
... Innuendo: An Italian suppository.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:10:49
--------
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On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Robert Curry...
SB> You have to look at the whole Bible to see what we are commanded. I
SB> am no longer under the law. I am to love everyone, not to kill those
SB> I disagree with.
Steve, that's situational ethics. "It is all right to do so-and-so
under THESE circumstances, but wrong to do them under THOSE
circumstances (i.e., during ancient time as opposed to during modern
times). Either a thing is unethical, or it is not. If it is not
ethical now, it was not ethical then.
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:12:32
--------
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MSGID: 1:105/40.3 a61eebf7
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On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Robert Curry...
SB> I am not so sure that the flood story has been disproven. Would that
SB> not be like proving a negative which according to the people here is
SB> impossible. There may be evidence against it, but it has not been
SB> proven wrong. BTW, I don't take the Epic of Gilgamesh to be evidence
SB> against the flood. If such a flood did happen, you would expect many
SB> civilisations to have an account of it (which many do). Also, I do
SB> not define my God in terms of the flood. This means even if the
SB> flood was proven wrong, this would not prove that my God does not exist.
So if the flood happened, you would expect many civilizations to have
an account of it. THINK, MAN! According to the flood myth, there was
NOBODY LEFT TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT EXCEPT NOAH AND HIS FAMILY! So how did
all these accounts get written all over the world?
Disproving the flood is hardly proving a negative. There is zero
evidence of a global deluge. Such an event would leave MUCH evidence.
Such an event would have rendered ALL the species of the Earth extinct.
The amount of inbreeding that would have been necessary following the
flood would have absolutely guaranteed the demise of all creatures in a
very few generations following the event.
ALL the sealife would have perished in the flood. Each sea-living
specie requires VERY exact amounts of both salinity and turbidity.
Deviate from these amounts by more than about 1 percent, and the specie
can no longer survive. The bottom fish would have been crushed by the
weight of the water because of the increased depth. All ocean
plantlife would have been wiped out, leaving any of the hardier sea
critters to starve to death. Unless Noah and Company had one helluva
lot of fishtanks aboard, and some pretty fancy electrical equipment to
maintain the optimum pressure, salinity, turbidity, etc. for each
specie, we would have no more water-dwelling creatures on this Earth.
... "Friendly Fire" aint.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:21:25
--------
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MSGID: 1:105/40.3 ee646542
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae553
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Questor Thews...
SB>
SB> What more would you want? He sent a part of Himself to be born of a
SB> virgin who would heal people, raise the dead, die on a cross to pay
SB> the penalty for our sins, rise again on the third day and then ascend
SB> to Heaven. Sounds pretty divine to me.
Are you sure it was three days? Accounts vary on this issue. Are you
sure she was a virgin? We've been through that one already, and MUCH
evidence has been presented to you regarding whether or not Mary had an
intact hymen at the time of her impregnation, whether you want to
accept the evidence (or even bother to check it out for yourself) or
not. As for him rising from the dead, there is a difference of opinion
among biblical scholars about that, also. Read something that was not
written by an apologist for a change, then we'll talk.
... Programming is like sex: One mistake and you support it.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: One God
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:24:55
--------
EID:5e26 1c2a9b00
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 981f91f7
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae55d
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Fredric Rice...
SB>
SB> Sure I will recount. Let's see, one...hmmmm, well that looks like
SB> there is just one. The Father is God and Jesus is God, the same God.
More crap out of the Council of Nicea. The Council declared a trinity
in order to finesse the obvious problems in creating a monotheistic
religion without the concept. The "we" that is mentioned in Genesis 1,
and the Elohim (note the plural) mentioned in Genesis were an artifact
of the pantheistic roots of both Judaism and Christianity. THAT is
your roots, Steve, whether you want to admit it or not. There is no
trinity. Christ never said there was a trinity. He claimed to be the
Son of God, but he also claimed that ALL of us were children of god.
The Holy Spirit is nothing more than a figure of speech. Have you ever
said "in the spirit of friendliness," or whatever? Well, the Holy
Spirit is "in the spirit of holiness." Nothing more. To the extent
that an individual possesses the will and resolve to be holy, they ARE
the holy spirit.
... Would a bullfighter with acne have Oil of Ole'?
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Inconsistencies #2
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:30:19
--------
EID:baae 1c2a9bc0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 aea35588
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae562
On (02 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Wayne Michaels...
SB> WM>SB>Don't worry about their lists of "inconsistencies". Many of
SB> them
SB> WM>have
SB> WM>SB>been explained away even though they refuse to accept the
SB> WM>explanations.
SB>
SB> WM> "Many of them", eh? So, we're just gonna forget the ones
SB> that
SB> WM>have not been explained?
SB>
SB> Since they are very minor and have no affect on doctrine, yes.
How many days between the crucifixion and resurrection? Are the
discrepancies in those accounts minor and have no effect on doctrine?
How did Judas die? At whose hand? While this has nothing to do with
doctrine, I do think that a few more of these would leave one question-
ing the credibility of the source of their doctrine. If they couldn't
get such things as how the betrayer of Jesus died, why should I trust
what they say about how I should live? They can't even get a story
straight, and yet I'm going to trust them to tell me -- from a
2000-year distance, yet -- how to live. I doubt it.
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:33:38
--------
EID:cb9a 1c2a9c20
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 dfa2e395
REPLY: 1:247/133 048c07e9
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Jonny Vee...
SB> People seem to think that the church started hundreds of years after
SB> the time of Jesus. This is not true. It started during His time on
SB> earth. Matthew and John were accepted as being written by the people
SB> whose name they bear and who happened to be people who Jesus knew,
SB> from the time they were written. This is may not be proof but it is
SB> evidence.
Well, if I do a REAL stretch, I can agree with you; otherwise I can't.
There were many Christian sects prior to the Council of Nicea, but
there was no "church" in the sense that we use that word today. Some
of the sects were Jewish, some were Gentile. They all have very
distinct ways of expressing their Christianity, and all were quite
different -- more different than, say, the Branch Davidians and the
Unitarians in some instances. The Council of Nicea effectively wiped
out all sects except the Eastern Orthodox. They established the
trinitarian school of thought (made up out of whole cloth, actually),
and the wiped the gnostics off the face of the Earth. The Christian
Church as we know it today was definitely started, in the institutional
sense, 325 years Anno Domini.
Incidentally. For the record, Jesus didn't come to Earth to establish
a church. That was not his mission at all. His mission was to teach
people a kinder, gentler, way to live than they had known under the old
Jehovah-belief. It is doubtful that he died on the cross. Crucifixion
takes days -- sometimes weeks of moaning and groaning. Even when the
legs are broken, which speeds up the dying process considerably, people
don't die in the matter of a few hours, let alone between sunup and
sundown. Jesus did not die on that cross. Period. That is part of
the fable -- the mythological Jesus, if you will.
... Police toilet stolen-- Cops have nothing to go on!
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dss
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:41:31
--------
EID:ded1 1c2a9d20
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 96195869
REPLY: 1:247/133 048c07ee
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to David Worrell...
SB> If that were the case, they would not include Ruth. I wonder if any
SB> copies of the apocryphal book Judith were found. A possible reason
SB> for Esther being missing is that it is the only book that does not
SB> mention God.
There are many ancient writings that were not included in the canon --
many of them infinitely more interesting and enlightening than those
that were included. Many of them were not included because they were
gnostic. There's the Book of Mary and the Book of Thomas, for example.
I have an idea you would find out more about your bible from reading
the excluded books than you ever will from reading those that were
included. Their omission tells a tale worth telling about a totally
different Jehovah and Jesus than the one that is described in the
included books.
... The lab called...your brain is ready.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 10 Jan 94 20:06:48
--------
EID:9b8a 1c2aa0c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 15d5e718
REPLY: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb77
On (07 Jan 94) Howard Harkness wrote to Tyler A. Wunder...
HH> TA>claims yet claim that your claims are logical. Never preach before
HH> anyo
HH> TA>the choir, as you must only attempt to sway the pre-swayed; you
HH> shall ne
HH>
HH> Actually, I have run into cults which claim that the "saved"
HH> are all pre-chosen.
That is hardly a cult belief. It is a fairly significant percentage of
the Christian population. There are whole denominations devoted to the
belief.
... Does that imply that the opposite of CONstitution is PROstitution?
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:07:42
--------
EID:a68f 1c2b80e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 7e616bbf
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d30ce88
On (09 Jan 94) Len Ovens wrote to Wayne Michaels...
LO> WM> Has it occured to you that the fact that you have yet to "here"
LO> WM> of a better explanation doesn't mean it defaults to a creator.
LO>
LO> I've heard lots of explainations. They have been easy to discount. I
LO> have not been able to discount a creator. It fits with all that I
LO> see, and know of the world around me. Perhaps you can tell me of
LO> something that better explains the origin and existance of life.
Since I'm not a science teacher, I'll merely suggest that you read
Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" then get back to us.
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Buddhism
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:11:14
--------
EID:8be9 1c2b8160
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 6f03aae8
REPLY: 1:247/133 050b1d44
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Joshua Lee...
SB> I was aware that a Bodhisattva was a Buddhist, but your comparison
SB> with Catholic Saints helps me to understand. If they (and
SB> Catholics) are praying to men for help, they would seem to be
SB> treating them almost like gods.
This is a common misconception among protestants. Catholics do not
actually pray to the saints in the sense that you seem to mean it in
your remarks. Look at it this way. Each saint was canonized on the
basis of some outstanding trait (they were particularly caring,
"carried a burden" for animals, were itinerant, etc.). So we have the
saint of travelers, St. Christopher, and so forth. Since they are the
alleged experts in a particular area, the pray-er is asking them to
intercede on their behalf. It is sort of like going to the department
head and asking him to go to the CEO, figuring that because of his
exalted position, his "words" will carry some additional weight.
I suspect (but don't actually know) that Buddhists don't actually pray
in the same sense that Christians do, but rather meditate on the
"essence" of the Buddha in an effort to replicate his mental and
spiritual state in their own mind.
... "Nothing spoils fun like finding out it builds character." |
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 11 Jan 94 16:18:37
--------
EID:ec0e 1c2b8240
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 0082950d
REPLY: 1:247/133 050b1d45
On (08 Jan 94) Steve Bedard wrote to Joshua Lee...
SB> JL>HP>>You can't prove a negative.
SB> JL> SB> Are there any human beings currently living on
SB> JL> SB> the surface of the moon?
SB>
SB> JL>No.
SB>
SB> JL> SB> Is it possible to prove there are none?
SB>
SB> JL>Oye vay... So therefore we should worship invisable men on the
SB> moon?
SB>
SB> That is not what I am saying at all. In fact it has nothing to do
SB> with
SB> God. I am trying to show that it is possible to prove a negative.
The most definitive statement that you will end up with if you pursue
this empty little exercise is "I don't know" or "it's possible."
Anything more definitive than that is hardly likely.
... Ol Hawaiian Saying: One man's meat is another man's poi, son.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proof
Date: 11 Jan 94 17:22:13
--------
EID:32b6 1c2b8ac0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 9c346b03
On (09 Jan 94) Dave Keeton wrote to David Worrell...
DK> -=> Quoting David Worrell to Dave Keeton <=-
DK> DW> One cannot help but wonder where you've been hiding. The argument
DK> DW> from design was debunked long ago. Most self-respecting theists
DK> DW> refrain from even mentioning it.
DK>
DK> Well, I just joined this conference, and I havent been hiding
DK> from anyone... As to the remark that Theists refrain from using
DK> design in their arguments, I guess you haven't heard of The
DK> Institute for Creation Research. There has been a debate going
DK> for many years over the facts of Science SUPPORTING creation.
DK> And as the debate rolls on, more and more credible scientists
DK> are standing up and being counted in the ranks of Creationists.
You're cute when you act stupid. We've heard of the ICR MANY times. It
has given us many a belly laugh, actually. The so-called scientists at
the ICR have one thing in common: they spout "science" in areas in
which they have no training. The chemists blather on and on about
geology. The biologists blather on and on about paleontology. The
dentists blather on and on about cosmology. They are a joke.
We have some REAL scientists in this conference who would be glad to
relieve you of your illusions about what the idiots at the ICR say, and
they have the saving grace of actually sticking to fields they know
something about. You might check with Marty Leipzig and Martin Goldberg.
THEY know what the hell they're talking about.
... A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Ciya is behind you!
Date: 11 Jan 94 17:07:20
--------
EID:72ac 1c2b88e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 ee7397c1
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 6e51dfc1
On (10 Jan 94) Robert Curry wrote to Len Ovens...
RC> On (26 Dec 93) Len Ovens wrote to Robert Curry...
RC>
RC> LO>> I don't believe in any "gods".
RC>
RC> LO> I am sorry to hear you have a problem reading, and can not
RC> distigush
RC> LO> the difference between a proper name and a noun.
RC>
RC> No problem at all. If you use "God" as a proper name, then it would
RC> appear to be the name of a god, unless maybe it's the name of your
RC> favorite aunt?
RC>
RC> LO> Understand, that you will be judged be the same yardstick that
RC> LO> you have been using to judge others,
RC>
RC> So tell me what your "God" is, if not a god, you fundy moron. ROFL!
What's yer problem? I had a dog once named Dog. 8-)
... My three-finger response for tough questions: Ctrl-Alt-Del
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Re: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:57:29
--------
EID:1ba1 1c2a9f20
> Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and
another crock surfaces. even if these numbers had any reality, they are
the ti
niest fraction of a percentage of the population. your tail wagging the
dog ma
sters never cease to amaze me with their inflated sense of importance.
> Soviet Union. And we will not stop there... Make no mistake we have only
> begun to fight those who have decided to oppose us. So be sure of your
> opposition, and hope that it can save you....
how? it didn't save that poor guy in the restaurant from being arrested
in FLo
rida did it?
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2104/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Starwyn
Sub: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 10 Jan 94 20:08:21
--------
EID:db3b 1c2aa100
> Jesus
> SB>spent time with some homosexuals just as He did with other outcasts
of
> SB>society. Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone, including homosexuals.
> You are one in a million that believe this then. I'm currently arguing
> with a fundy on Cult_Info about this very issue.
Jesus was homosexual and his sacrifice was only for them.
wait till Don Wildmon finds that out!
is his butt ever in a sling? [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2104/001027
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: All
Sub: that New Age demon has been ASCIIed
Date: 10 Jan 94 20:31:00
--------
EID:ae3b 1c2aa3e0
[by Todd Rourke in the AEN_NEWS Echo]
_oI=vo__
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= Origin: An Bhaibealoin Ceirbreach /E.Prov,RI/ v.32bis (1:323/110.0)
you'll have to fix those line wraps at the top after you export it to a
file.
[grin]
TTFN.
Chris
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--------
From: Brian Devlin
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: What is a Christian?
Date: 10 Jan 94 22:27:00
--------
EID:c7c8 1c2ab360
MSGID: 1:374/69 05970ef2
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Luke Enriquez to Fredric Rice dated 01-04-94 ***
> Hello Fredric!
>
> 22 Dec 93 15:43, Fredric Rice wrote to Luke Enriquez:
>
> FR> A Christian is someone who believes in the devinity of the
> classical
> FR> Christian mythos titled 'Jesus.'
>
> You still miss my point. Their is only one important thing in
> the bible, and that is to treat others the way you would like to be
> treated. The rest is mere bullshit commentary.
>
> Regards,
> Luke
>
> *!* GoldED 2.41+
> * Origin: To see the point, is to miss it completely (3:632/515)
>
>
I don't know that I would call the restt "mere bullshit commentary". Although
some of it is possibly. There is a doctrine of inerrancy in the Bible which
means simply that some of the stories may be inaccurate. I agree that the
most
important thing in the Bible is to treat others the way you would like to
be
treated. Keep in mind teh following: B= Basic
I= Information
B= Before
L= Leaving
E= Earth
God Bless You
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Brian Devlin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: A HolySmoker's Dyslexicon: Part 6 of 6
Date: 10 Jan 94 22:35:01
--------
EID:da2b 1c2ab460
MSGID: 1:374/69 05970ef3
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Marty Leipzig to Christopher Baker dated 01-05-94 ***
> Christopher Baker, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty
> Leipzig:
>
> CB> thanks.
> CB>
> CB> captured to file DYSLEXIC.ON and available as such here.
>
> Always amused to oblige.
>
> Share and enjoy.
>
> ... Where will you spend eternity? Heaven? Hell? Or Perth-Amboy?
> *!* Blue Wave/Max v2.12
> * Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
>
Great Line:
ere will you spend eternity? Heaven? Hell? or Perth-Amboy? That had to
come f
rom New Jersey. It seems to me that people are beginning to wake up to
what i
s necessary to have their relationship to God made right. As a non-denominati
onal minister I see more and more peopleg right with God. and I think it
has t
o do with the fact that I believe we are beginning to see what the end of
time
is going to be like. We are beginning to see what is written about the
end t
imes in the Bible. Unfortunately it takes tragedies, disasters etc. for
peopl
e to get right with God. I wish it would happen automatically. but I guess
i
f that happened I would be out of a job.
God Bless
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Chernobyl * (407)724-1688 * Melbourne Beach, (1:374/69@FIDONET.ORG)
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--------
From: Brian Devlin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 10 Jan 94 22:40:02
--------
EID:da1d 1c2ab500
MSGID: 1:374/69 05970ef4
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Steve Quarrella to Marilyn Burge dated 01-05-94 ***
> Hwaet, Marilyn!
>
> 1 Jan 94, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Bedard:
>
> MB> ... My mind is my own church. THAT is what I'll use. Thomas
> MB> Paine
>
> Didn't _I_ say "THAT is what I'll use."? Paine gets the credit for the
> first sentence. :)
>
> ... Try the new Ranch Davidian dressing: Fifteen nuts and spices.
> *!* Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
> * Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
>
>
I can't agree with teh statement " My mind is my ownurch". There is too
much
idence to prove otherwise. It isot good not to have fellowship in achurch
of
your choosing. Fellowship with others is a necessity of life.
God Bless
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Chernobyl * (407)724-1688 * Melbourne Beach, (1:374/69@FIDONET.ORG)
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--------
From: Brian Devlin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: JESUS SAYINGS?
Date: 10 Jan 94 22:45:03
--------
EID:7886 1c2ab5a0
MSGID: 1:374/69 05970ef5
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Steve Quarrella to John Musselwhite dated 01-05-94 ***
> ATH: 266/52 22 3615/50 374/1
> Hwaet, John!
>
> 26 Dec 93, dixit John Musselwhite ad Steve Quarrella:
>
I would be quite interested in hearing what you think about the book. Only
be
acuse I am curious. If you happen to see it in the store pass it on in
case I
wish to purchase it.
Thanks
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Chernobyl * (407)724-1688 * Melbourne Beach, (1:374/69@FIDONET.ORG)
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--------
From: Brian Devlin
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 10 Jan 94 22:53:04
--------
EID:6561 1c2ab6a0
MSGID: 1:374/69 05970ef6
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Jeff Jones to Rob Bamford dated 01-05-94 ***
> *** Quoting Rob Bamford to Tyler A. Wunder ***
>
> RB> going on. The Bible is continually being shown to be accurate in
> RB> its history, etc... through archeology and the like. Take note,
>
> The Iliad was archeologically accurate too...doesn't mean the gods
> listed therein ever existed though. Nor do the unnatural claimed made
> in there have any validity. So the best you can say is the bible and
> Iliad are equally valid archeologically. Now, doesn't it make sense to
> you that if you were going to lay down the events of a battle at a
> well-known ancient spot, you'd embellish just a little? Most myths
> have _some_ basis in reality, be it location or central figure. The
> bible is no different than countless other myths.
>
> *!* Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
The Bible also shows auffering Messiah who came to save the nations. This
sam
e suffering Messiah was depicted last year when one of the Dead Sea Scrolls
ws
found and opened . It too talked about Jesus as the Messiah who had to
suffe
r and die. for his people. Isn't that enough evidence.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Chernobyl * (407)724-1688 * Melbourne Beach, (1:374/69@FIDONET.ORG)
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--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Postal cards
Date: 06 Jan 94 23:09:01
--------
EID:e937 1c26b920
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 03154888
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b6083cd2
> If anyone is interested in a postal card from Holland, direct your
> mailing address to me in network mail and I'll drop a card in the
> post for you.
Styx Allum
P.O. Box 5150 (Cop code for crazy person on the loose)
Eugene, OR 97405
> * Origin: The Skeptic Tank,
I wonder how many people remember the rest of that origin line?
For that matter... I wonder how dearest JBS is doing these days.
He definitely was one for the record books. (Criminal records)
Thanks in advance for the post card. Do I get a pre-card to let
me know that the post-card is coming?
Also...
Why do they call it "stationary" when it's in the mail?!
Oh. I guess that was a rhetorical question. ;-)
> ~*~ (I don't go anywhere without my lesbians.) - David Rice
Got any postcards of that famous kid with his finger in a dyke?
Rotterdam (ahem) off, if he leaves it there long enough.
Yew wood, wooden shoe? Maybe knot. What fir? What tree?
He ponders as he realizes that he's really in dutch now.
(Or would that be considered a dutch oven? Can jews be found
in dutch ovens, or would that not be germane?)
Do Quakers prefer Holland Oats?
---
* Origin: Out in the Styx - Eugene, OR 345-2582 HST/14.4 (1:152/20)
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--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 06 Jan 94 23:27:02
--------
EID:97ae 1c26bb60
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 03154889
REPLY: 1:350/401 861B2A99
> JC> counting it you put into a pressurized box or dilute the water or
> JC> something)
> Oh, interesting concept.... diluted water! Let's see,
> first you take some water. Then, you add (drum roll, please!)
btbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbt [crash]
> water..... Pray tell, what would this mixture make? Ahhh, more
> water!
It works great when dehydrated, too. Just add water.
Pretty miraculous when you think about it. That proves there's a god.
These kind of things don't just happen by accident, you know.
> JC> I hope I have made my point, as I really don't have time to explain
> JC> the concept of synonyms or dictionaries as they relate to the English
> JC> language.
> Not at all. Your formulation for diluting water says it all.
Hey, give the guy a break. He used to make ice out of water, too...
until he lost the recipe. (It was a hot day in Heaven)
---
* Origin: Cold as hell? Hot water heaters? Huh?! (1:152/20)
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--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 06 Jan 94 23:31:03
--------
EID:5ef5 1c26bbe0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0315488a
REPLY: 1:202/1111@fido 2d262f1e
> In regards to C. S. Lewis, you ARE mistaken! That is why he BECAME
> so popular. He may or may not have been raised Anglican, but that
> doesn't guarentee that he had a walk with the Lord. After he became
> a Christian, he then started writing Christian books and became famous.
...either that, or he found out that it was profitable to capitalize
on fundy gullibility...
Who can you believe these days? Have faith. "Trust me."
---
* Origin: The death of dogma is the birth of reality. (1:152/20)
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--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Well Folks....
Date: 08 Jan 94 21:22:00
--------
EID:2aa8 1c28aac0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0414f272
REPLY: 1:247/133 018d513d
> This won't do much for showing the atheists here that Christianity is
> about love.
Love of what? [Serious question]
> ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Don't be silly! I'm just the moderator.
---
* Origin: Born Again Christian = "I guess I myth'd again." (1:152/20)
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--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Adam...
Date: 08 Jan 94 22:46:01
--------
EID:3e0d 1c28b5c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0414f273
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52c88eac
> MG> any real evidence that your god exists?
> Can you give ANY evidence that he doesn't? The answer is that there
> is no solid evidence either way. Did you know that it is impossable
> to prove a universal negative?
Can you prove that? ;-)
--- (Triple negative)
* Origin: "I'm anti-negative." (1:152/20)
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Jesus makes a mistake
Date: 10 Jan 94 00:41:16
--------
EID:4f80 1c2a0520
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d32e73d
Hi David...
On 08 Jan 94, David Rice penned the following to All
about Jesus makes a mistake
DR> Coming) would occur within the lifetime of at least some of his
DR> contemporaries. The conditions for its fulfillment were stated
DR> clearly: that his return would be seen and acknowledged by the
DR> whole world and that it would happen before that generation passed
DR> away (Mark 13:14-30). This clearly did not happen and must count
DR> as a precise prophecy that was falsified by the passage of time."
I thought I had discussed this here... it must have been in the local
religion echo... Oh well. Let's discuss it.
DR> I read the appropriate passages in the Bible, and it's hard for me
DR> to imagine how one could squirm out of this one. According to the
It DOES seem rather obvious if you look at it in a theological light.
If you examine the passage closely it carries some interesting
overtones. If you look at Mark 13, and remember as always that "Christ
"
does not mean "Son of God" but "Messiah" or Annointed One. This is
complicated by the fact that historically there were TWO of them... Th
e
Messiah of Aaron and the Messiah of Israel. Were they talking about a
priestly messiah or a military one? Were they discussing not the
arrival of the "Son of Man" to save their souls, but the Son of David
to free them from Roman domination?
DR> Skeptical Inquirer article, the "best" explanation is by one Hal
DR> Lindsay who said that a biblical generation is 40 years, and that the
So why doesn't that suprise me? I'm suprised Hal Lindsay know where hi
s
shoes are when he gets up in the morning! B-}) IMHO, the clock started
ticking as soon as Jesus supposedly said "This generation will surely
not pass away before...".
DR> clock should only start ticking the day Israel became a nation (1948).
DR> He has now decided that he doesn't know exactly how long a biblical
DR> generation is, and it's "Perhaps somewhere between sixty and eighty
DR> years."
I see no evidence of a generation being other than about 40 years...
John
... All the world's a stage; and I'm leaving on the next one!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Rob Fargher
Sub: Parthenogenesis 11:32
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:15:31
--------
EID:7bd6 1c2c41e0
Rob Fargher, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
ML> Parthenogenesis is very common in reptiles and fish.
RF> I would take exception to your usage of "very common".
That figures. All you nasty neontologists are ganging up on
the lone paleontologist....
RF> To me,
RF> parthenogenesis implies a self-fertilizing hermaphrodite (at least
RF> among the Chordates).
I would agree with that. Perhaps...*cough*...the terminology
"very common" was...*cough*...somewhat imprecise.
RF> The only fish that I'm aware of that is capable of parthenogenesis
RF> is _Rivulus marmoratus_, which forms clones of females. Do you know
of
RF> others?
Let's see...Ahh, here it is..._Astronautus ocellatus_, one of
the Chicilids, is known to be parthenogenetic. As I recall (from
those wild and heady days of slumming around the Great Lakes
Research Facility and bothering the Fisheries Biologists with
constant questions) that certain species of _Esox sp._ can be
induced (environmentally) to be parthenogenetic. Also, the
Great Lakes sturgeon _Acipenser aff. transmontanus_ and _A.
medirostrius_ can also be induced to parthenogenesis. Oh, yes,
I recall that the common redhorse ("sucker"), (I think it's of
the Cypriniformes...Catostomidae, if memory serves) are known
in the wild to be parthenogenetic during periods of environmental
stress.
RF> BTW, your little gem "Carcinogenic if incensed!" in a previous
RF> message evened the score up for the "wide legged walking" .
10^3 thanks. Just another one of myriad services provided with
your subscription to HolySmoke: "A drive-by shooting on the
information superhighway."
RF> Cheers,
Mastrovia. Make mine a double.
... As your Doctor I advise you to start drinking heavily.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Mike Staab
Sub: ?
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:04:41
--------
EID:8245 1c2c3880
Mike Staab, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to All Or Anyone:
MS> Hello, I'm new to this echo and would be interested in discussing
MS> anything related to religion. I'm a Christian and am letting you know
MS> this up front. I don't like to play games, but do enjoy sound
MS> reasoning. Anyone interested?
Hello again, Mike. As I recall a few megatimeclicks back you
frequented either the Science or Controv. echo.
Welcome to HolySmoke. Be forewarned, the HolySmoke echo when
compared to the Science echo is like a disk sander is to a
rouge cloth.
... No reason to get up. I know when you've been beaten.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Wronkey Menching
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:16:05
--------
EID:8042 1c2c4200
Marilyn Burge, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
MB> On (08 Jan 94) Marty Leipzig wrote to David Rice...
ML> DR> roll over and accept our demise?
ML>
ML> I thought the right to keep and arm bears was guaranteed in the
ML> constitution....
MB> No, no, NO! That's isn't what it says at all. It says we have the
MB> right to BARE ARMS.
Hmmm...I thought it had to do with those fuzzier types of
Mediterranean extraction and their right to bear arms.
MB> It concerns the fact that in early America, it
MB> was customary for people to keep their arms covered because the flesh
MB> on arms was considered to be tittilating. The Original Dads saw fit
MB> to correct that bit of anal-retentiveness, and did so by making baring
MB> our arms a protected activity.
MB> Get it RIGHT, Marty!
Bare arms? Oh, me! Oh, my! Forebear! It starts with bare arms,
and then progresses to bare shoulders...where will this
slippery slope end!?!
Next thing you know, wimmen will want to vote as well...
... Even if you understood women - you'd never believe it!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Who does what
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:28:40
--------
EID:730c 1c2c3b80
Marilyn Burge, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
MB> On (08 Jan 94) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
ML> Gee. I'm impressed.
ML>
ML> I mean, when do you find the time to chase ambulances?
MB> Now, see! My fundy friend would find that to be hilarious.
As would our ranch manager who also happens to be a bottom
dwelling, scum sucking...no, he's not a catfish...
MB> Jesse
MB> will think it's a cheap shot.
Don't I know. He's a good little fundy automaton, and it's so
easy to find the right "Initiate Righteous Indignation" button.
MB> I gave my fundy friend a floppy disk
MB> full of lawyer jokes. He enjoys them. He has a nearly unlimited
MB> ability to laugh at himself.
Shouldn't we all? There's nothing more useful to skew that dim
perception of what we call stark reality than a little
self-deprecating humor. In the Awl Bidness back in the crash
of '86, one of my favorite jokes was: "What can a pigeon do
that a Petroleum Geologist cannot? Make a deposit on a new
car."
I happened to be gainfully unemployed at the time, along with
600,000-700,000 or so other folks in the erstwhile oil patch.
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Re: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:44:25
--------
EID:2757 1c2c3d80
Dave Keeton, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to David Worrell:
DW> Theory of evolution is at least a good approximation of what
DW> happened.
DK>
DK> Well, which is it? a theory or a fact?
It is both.
DK> It is most certainly not
DK> a FACT,
Finely chopped pork, beef and spices! Life has progressed from
the simple to the complex over the span of geologic time. Hard,
cold fact.
DK> although as of the last few years, it has been taught
DK> in public schools as fact.
Correct. That's what they should do in public schools: teach
science in the science classroom; not some bastardized version
of narrowly sectarian religion disguising itself as science.
DK> Anyone willing to have an open mind
DK> and do a little research into the very fields that you like to
DK> quote from for your evidence, will doubtless find that the
DK> parameters for life to exsist on this planet leave little margin
DK> for error,
The old anthropic argument. Sheesh. Tell me, Herr "Open Mind",
how much research have you done in the fields of geology,
paleontology, biochemistry, genetics, zoology, physics,
chemistry; to name but a few?
DK>and how all of these things point to a Creator.
Only to those with the ability to deny reality and instead
embrace an illusion.
DW> Those of us who believe the Bible and are
DW>
DW> Morons? Primitives cowering in fear of an imaginary bully?
DK>
DK> I am not cowering from anyone. My relationship with the Creator
DK> is not based on fear, because he is not a guy with a big hammer
DK> waiting to smack me when ever I make a amistake or fall out of
DK> like. This is not the God that is revealed to use through Christ
DK> Jesus. The God of Creation is a Loving God, full of compassion
DK> and mercy. His desire for us is that we have fellowship with
DK> Him.
And He'll condemn you to eternal torment if you don't do
exactly as He says. Now, there's a father figure to emulate.
DK> convinced that God does exsist, are not always on the defensive.
DW>
DW> You should be. The burden of proof lies with you. I don't give a damn
DW> what you believe. If you wish to waste your time believing in your
DW> imaginary tyrant, go right ahead. However, if you wish to "save" me,
DW> you're gonna have to cough up some proof.
Turnabout is fair play. Cough up some evidence for your God or
admit it's all a convenient fabrication.
DK> I am not trying to "save you" nor am I able to if I would like
DK> to. I am merely pointing out that not everyone swallows the lie
DK> that we came from monkeys, and I have already answered the
DK> remark about proving that God exsists.
That's right. Not everyone is stupid enough to believe the pap
their minister, priest or televangelist feeds them. Otherwise,
you wouldn't make such an ignorant remark about "we came from
monkeys". We share a common ancestry with the apes. There's
more than just a slight difference.
DW> One cannot help but wonder where you've been hiding. The argument from
DW> design was debunked long ago. Most self-respecting theists refrain
DW> from even mentioning it.
DK>
DK> Well, I just joined this conference, and I havent been hiding
DK> from anyone... As to the remark that Theists refrain from using
DK> design in their arguments, I guess you haven't heard of The
DK> Institute for Creation Research. There has been a debate going
DK> for many years over the facts of Science SUPPORTING creation.
Provide them! This will be such a great blood-letting. Let me
clue you in, bud; pointing to the ICR as a bastion of science
is like pointing to Charles Manson as a paragon of human
kindness.
There is NO evidence supporting creation. Go ahead. Post some.
Prove me wrong.
DK> And as the debate rolls on, more and more credible scientists
DK> are standing up and being counted in the ranks of Creationists.
HAH! Name two! Surely it isn't the 96 Noble prize winners and
Noble laureates who signed the Amica Curaie denouncing
"Creationism" as anti-science, pseudoscientific and religion
masquerading as science. It isn't the 14,000 geologists and
geophysicists of the AAPG, nor the over 350,000 scientists of
the AAAS and BAAS.
The dozen or so "scientists" who stump for the ICR are a
collection of the most dishonest, religiously motivated,
preposterous bunko artists to ever to contaminate a classroom.
... 5th Rule of Creationism: Lying for the Lord is okay.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Re: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:27:43
--------
EID:2757 1c2c4360
Dave Keeton, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Martin Goldberg:
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Dave Keeton <=-
MG> 5. Random events do not occur and stick around. If the car were
MG> thrown enough times, it would eventually take the required shape for
MG> someone to get in and driv eit away. You try a different combinations
MG> every nanosecond for ten millionyears, you are bound to get it right
MG> sooner or later.
DK> Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?!
No, we think you (and your spelling) are ludicrous.
DK> What a
DK> crock! Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope
DK> of 10-20 billion years because the chance of random shuffling of
DK> amino acids (the building blocks of life) producing a workable set
DK> of enzymes would be less then 10 to the -40,000 (this is a
DK> conservative estimate by British Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle
DK> made in 1981).
Does it strike you odd that you cite a doting astrophysicist in
questions of biopoesis? Do you take your sick children to the
veterinarian?
DK> Science does have a limit in the Laws of
DK> Probability, at which something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE.
DK> Anything less than 10 to the -50 is considered absurd. Even if you
DK> ran your different combinations in the 20 BILLION years, you
DK> wouldn't have the TIME to come up with the right combination.
1. Evolution does not address origins.
Strike one.
2. Hoyle cites RANDOM shuffling. Chemical and physical reactions
are not random. They follow deterministic bases.
Strike two.
3. Holye cites the odds of "Grand Success", whereby a collection
of chemicals spring to life full-blown and fully operating.
Prebiotic chemistry is a step-wise sequence of accumulated
traits leading to self-replication.
Strike three.
Yer outta here!
DK> ... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Then quit talking to yourself.
... Learning is a wondrous thing! You should try it sometime.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Endtimes / "Bob"
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:54:04
--------
EID:f3f5 1c2c3ec0
Steve Rose, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Chuck Dubman:
SR> Hello Chuck!
CD> I'm confused. When exactly did "Bob" predict the World would end?
SR> When the Chiefs win the Superbowl.
When swine self-accelerate to Mach 1.
... Heresy lays foundations for progress.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:10:23
--------
EID:7152 1c2c4140
Chuck Dubman, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to David Strickland:
DS> John Musselwhite Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: Marty Leipzig
DS> About: Paluxy Revisited...
JM> Hi Marty...
JM> now in an area called "Dinosaur State Park". Have you heard of
JM> this? Did they really make a state park out of it?
DS> Yep. As far as I know its been there for some time.
CD> I assume this is the place in either Montana or Wyoming that's
CD> particularly rich in saurian fossils?
No and not really. It's in Texas and it's particularly rich in
saurian ichnos; i.e. foot prints.
CD> If this is the place, it's been
CD> called by the afforementioned name since about 1920.
Are you perhaps thinking of Dinosaur National Monument in
Vernal, Utah; home of the Morrison Formation, _Stegosaurus_,
_Allosaurus_, and my venerable namesake, _Brontosaurus_?
... Reality is not a constant. Shut up and finish your dinosaur.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:50:02
--------
EID:bf61 1c2c5640
-=> Quoting Joe Savelli to All <=-
JS> Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and
JS> still growing. We are going to invade all political and educational
JS> institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist invaders. The
JS> Church won't sit back and permit unbelievers to run the world. Pope
JS> John Paul and Ronald Reagan brought an athiest regime to its knees,
JS> The Soviet Union. And we will not stop there... Make no mistake we
JS> have only begun to fight those who have decided to oppose us. So be
JS> sure of your opposition, and hope that it can save you....
JS> Scared Good....
Yeah, I'd be scared, too, if I was going to base a crusade like you're
demanding on the ravings of one "Christian" moron, namely, yourself.
You ain't goin' nowhere, Joe. Just shut up and sit back down and ride
the bus like the rest of us.
(You believe what you want to believe. You try to force others to believe
it, expect to meet a .45 slug in short order. You'd kow about that if you
bothered to learn something from history.)
... "The Church" can't manage their own affairs, but they want to run ours?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Endtimes / "Bob"
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:53:27
--------
EID:87ed 1c2c56a0
-=> Quoting Steve Rose to Chuck Dubman <=-
SR> Hello Chuck!
CD> I'm confused. When exactly did "Bob" predict the World would end?
SR> When the Chiefs win the Superbowl.
"Bob" will be disappointed, then, come next Sunday evening...;-)
... Jack's Columbia Blue Army, Marching On Atlanta!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: no not that
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:56:19
--------
EID:3978 1c2c5700
-=> Quoting Howard Harkness to Patrick Humphrey <=-
KJ> independantly came up with the same results : The probability of
KJ> coming into existence without the intervention of some divine being
KJ> 0. These experiments weren't conducted by Joe Blow these people k
HH> ^^^^^^^^^^^
HH> Another fundy gone off half-cocked. Experiments, indeed.
HH>
You noticed that, too...a fundy experimenting? Stop the presses! ;-)
... WNG FROM GOD: Universe rebooting in 2 minutes. Please log off.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Paul Boyer
Sub: Well Folks....
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:01:57
--------
EID:d88e 1c2c5820
-=> Quoting Paul Boyer to Joe Savelli <=-
PB> |Notice that I didn't turn him in to the MP's. He would have ende
PB> |up in the stockade for 20 years if I had done that.
PB> Crapola, Joey. He'd have been dishonorably discharged, not imprisoned
PB> for 20 years, as you claim.
PB> Another of your lies, as usual.
Too bad we can't find Joe access to IRC -- it'd be quick and merciful...;-)
--patrick@is.rice.edu, Colonel/Malcontnt/Chtorr on IRC
... G'day, mate -- throw another fundy on the barbie!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 11 Jan 94 00:50:04
--------
EID:3af8 1c2b0640
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0580c582
REPLY: 1:247/133 048d7a71
PID: FM 2.02
> Alright I have a better one. If I show you both of my hands and they
> seem empty can you prove that I am not holding a hammer in my hands?
Would you expect any sane person to believe that you are holding one? And
who
needs to prove something so plainly obvious as empty hands?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Music of the beast
Date: 11 Jan 94 02:19:05
--------
EID:038b 1c2b1260
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 05813b57
REPLY: 1:350/401 86212DAD
PID: FM 2.02
> Just think of the BBS experience as a method of getting in the
> mood to jam....
Irritated and amused? OK for some kinds of music, but I can't play hard-core
thrash all night.
> JV> when she comes home and plays country-western "music" too loud.
Not s
o
> I can live with that, as long as it's not about how the guy's
> horse left him for another cowboy.
Hyuck!
Ya know whatchya get when ya play a country-western song backwards??
Ya getchyer wife back, ya getchyer dawg back, ya getchyer pickup truck back,
y
a getchyer farm back.....
sheeit!
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Howard Harkness
Sub: Evolutional Ignorance
Date: 11 Jan 94 02:40:06
--------
EID:02d7 1c2b1500
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 05813b58
REPLY: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb76
PID: FM 2.02
> JV>due to ignorance or knowingly repeating lies, but I would suggest
> JV>that they may also be acting under influence of faith, unable to
> JV>recognize that they are disseminating disinformation, unable to
> JV>distinguish between objective reality and the myth they believe in.
> Excellent article! Well-written, and lucid.
Shh! I don't take compliments well; you'll make me blow my "humble" cover.
> I have another theory: It's not faith, but fear. The fear
> that they might be wrong is so great that comfort can only be
> derived by getting other people to agree with them...
No doubt. Fear is a strong motivating factor. Even among the sects whose
dog
ma maintains that "once saved, always saved", it seems to me that there
still
is an element of wondering if one has made a mistake. Then there is the
fear
that one may some day come to lose faith, and then be so badly mistaken
as to
wind up in hell, whatever that is.
This does not, however, invalidate the faith part. Some rationalize that
if t
hey are mistaken in accepting the dogma of their religion, then it's no
big de
al, but if they mistakenly fail to qualify under that dogma, it's hell.
Whate
ver that is.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Don Martin
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 11 Jan 94 10:17:14
--------
EID:287a 1c2b5220
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d32c51f
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d2ed2b6
A pregnant pause ensued as Joe Savelli shared a conception -- Christian
Coalit
ion is gr -- with All on 08 Jan 94 10:35:
JS> Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000
JS> and still growing.
It shall doubtless continue to grow until the year 2001, at which time it
shall probably experience a sharp decline. Now, about that guy in Florida,
a
rrested for praying in a restuarant . . . .
JS> We are going to invade all political and
JS> educational institutions, take them back
JS> from the liberal/socialist invaders.
Also hat A. Hitler im <> geschrienen, zehn oder zwanzig jahre
n ehe er ein selbst-mrd geworden bin. Nun, ueber dem Mann der war im Florida
. . .
---
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:07:00
--------
EID:7393 1c2c60e0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 068d4420
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> Are you talking about the A_Theist forum? If so:
>
> Is that really your perception? Or are you expanding upon the request
> to remain on topic within that forum just a bit? A_Theist Moderator
> does not permit topics which exceed the boundary of separation of
> church and State matters. Most participants recieve warnings very
> month or so.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Yep, I was... I was more or less told, "No, you're wrong, you don't think
tha
t, and don't belong here. 'We don't do gods.'".
Hence, I no longer carry that conference, because I found it nearly impossible
to stay within the guidelines of such a narrow topic.
-dan-
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: If we were all nude...
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:11:01
--------
EID:d927 1c2c6160
MSGID: 1:2617/117 068d4421
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> How charmingly inconsistent. Sure it would, but no one would go around
> saying "I'm not wearing clothes!" Because, as you noted above with
> respect to atheism, the point would be moot.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Not inconsistent. They would not have a concept of being nude, and wouldn't
c
all it that, but us, from a clothed society, look at them and say, "Hey,
they'
re nude." They'd be confused at best, as to the point of covering one's
self
withwoven cloth.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Prophecy! NOT!
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:20:02
--------
EID:8ead 1c2c6280
MSGID: 1:2617/117 068d4422
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Larry Sites Said: ]-----
> A VIRGIN-BIRTH PROPHECY?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Wow, that was some seriously in-depth work on his part...
I am certainly impressed. :)
-dan-
Trying to prove that Christianity just ain't so...
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Zach Bickers
Sub: bible
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:20:03
--------
EID:0099 1c2c6280
MSGID: 1:2617/117 068d4423
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Zach Bickers Said: ]-----
> Heres a good point,"the bible was writing by humans,humans lie1"
> whats the responce to that one gonna be?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
The Bible is a lie.
How's that?
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Alan Hess
Sub: mythology
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:21:04
--------
EID:01cd 1c2c62a0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 068d4424
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Alan Hess Said: ]-----
> Why are there so many people in this world who so believe their
> particular mythology is better than everyone else's that they have to
> push their beliefs on folks who aren't interested? If one is happy
> with one's religious mythology, fine - enjoy it. But leave others
> alone.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Because they're rat bastards, that's why.
There's nothing wrong with trying to show the flaws to a believer of a religio
n, just something wrong showing how your religion is better than theirs.
:)
-dan-
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 10 Jan 94 19:14:00
--------
EID:b1dd 1c2a99c0
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F23
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Gary Glunz <=-
GG> If your god is so omnipotent and ineffably wise, why does he need us
GG> to serve/worship/grovel? If he needs us, does that not, at least in
GG> part, make him dependent on us?
SB> He does not need us nor is dependent on us. He simply wants to be
SB> loved by us in the way a parent wants their children to love them.
I guess it's just kind of hard for me to love something that will
destroy me if I don't. I cannot "love" such an entity (assuming
it DOES exist).
It almost sounds like god LOOKS for excuses/reasons to condemn
us. Why does he destroy the people he created? Why can't he
learn to love/accept people for who they are (especially since
HE'S the one who created them with their individual personalities)?
Don't you think that's kind of depressing?
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids
Date: 10 Jan 94 21:23:00
--------
EID:cd6c 1c2aaae0
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F24
SB> people followed the Christian doctrine of sex only within
SB> marriage
MG> Now, Steve...I thought that we had agreed in principle that strict
MG> monogamy was the same as sex within marriage. Is it that hard to give
MG> up your bible?
Ain't it something? Here's a classic fundy bait & retreat example.
What they really mean is that the only time you should fuck is when
you need children. Sex is "ugly" and "dirty" to them. Imagine the
guilt and agony they feel as each day grinds miserably by.
No wonder they look forward to the day they die.
... *Origin: "One good orgasm would probably kill them!"
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: Aids Kills
Date: 10 Jan 94 21:32:00
--------
EID:196e 1c2aac00
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F25
LO> Yes, but elements that if they followed natures laws wouldn't be
LO> together in the manner they are, if not for a creator. I have not yet
LO> heard another explaination that works. Maybe you have one????
Then get the news. Scientists have already observed self-replicating
protiens :-)
LO> This is getting to be fun!! And so educational.
That it is, to be sure ;-)
... Anything not nailed down is a cat toy.
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--------
From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 11 Jan 94 02:31:00
--------
EID:29ac 1c2b13e0
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F26
SB> He sent a part of Himself to be born of a
SB> virgin who would heal people, raise the dead, die on a cross to pay
SB> the penalty for our sins, rise again on the third day and then ascend
SB> to Heaven.
Please see your doctor immediately. You have a serious chemical
imbalance in your brain and are in need of medical attention. Such
delusional states can cause you to be dangerous to yourself and
others.
SB> Sounds pretty divine to me.
Sounds like you need 3/4 a gram of THORAZINE to me :-)
... Well? What'll it be? The Brush or the Spoon??
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 10 Jan 94 21:48:00
--------
EID:29ac 1c2aae00
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F27
SB> Interesting anti-Christian propaganda, but no where does it describe
a
SB> God who takes pleasure in destroying or in abusing His devotees. When
SB> He destroyed it was out of necessity and when He punished the Hebrews
SB> it was in order to bring them back to Him.
Do you mean to tell everyone that your infinitely wise "creator"
couldn't think of any other solutions to the human condition
then to destroy people??
I have a hypothesis:
YOU'RE ALL FULL OF SHIT :-)
... It is all based on faith. I am not required to provide evidence. -SB
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 11 Jan 94 03:00:00
--------
EID:c182 1c2b1800
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F28
JV>And I can see that the HolySmokers are going to have a
JV>lot of
JV>fun with you.
SB> They usually do.
SB> OOOHHHHH!!!! AAHHHHHHHH!!!!
You LIKE them nails, don't you?
... Prayer does not change God, it changes YOU (into a babbling idiot).
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 11 Jan 94 03:09:00
--------
EID:362d 1c2b1920
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F29
SB> In the beginning was the Word...
Butt-barf.
Man, you need to edit your messages better. I've been seeing
your messages come up that are 98% quoted text. Use the mouse
if you're using DOS-edit :-)
... Burro: an ass. Burrow: a hole in the ground. Know the difference.
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Manson Finds The Lord God
Date: 11 Jan 94 03:57:00
--------
EID:0e4f 1c2b1f20
MSGID: 1:100/4 86275F2A
SA> ! Origin: Neil Peart is the god of percussion. (1:152/20)
SQ>
SQ> Nope. Keith Moon. :)
CE> Ginger Baker when Blind Faith was rippin butt.
Yer all wrong. Reed Mullin on Corrosion of Conformity's album
entitled _Animosity_.
... Forest fires prevent bears.
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From: Starwyn
To: All
Sub: hmmm
Date: 12 Jan 94 06:10:00
--------
EID:dff3 1c2c3140
Harvey Smith has publicly stated that no PAGANS are allowed to access any
of
his echo, including the Hobby echo...
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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From: Starwyn
To: All
Sub: hmmm
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:08:00
--------
EID:dff3 1c2c3900
The Quest for the Historical Jesus
by Ammond Shadowcraft
"...It is only in comparitively modern times that the possibility was
considered that Jesus does not belong to history at all. Those who come
acros
s this idea for the first time are naturally startled by it. In fact the
susp
icion that Jesus might be as mythical as other ancient saviors as Osiris,
Mit
hra and Krishna arose as a result of a serious effort to discover his real
vo
ice and actions. the most scrupulous of analysis of the texts failed to
revea
l a convincing picture of an authentic person."
_Pagan_Christs_, page 63
Well such is what J.M. Robertson claims.
"Modern biblical critics freely admit that some of the Gospel narritive
must be fiction. We know now that much of it was composed well after the
events it purports to describe. Comparitive religion has drawn attention
to
close pagan parallels--to the essential features of the story--the virgin
birth, the sacrifical death and resurrection. The same is true of the rites
o
f baptism and sacramental communion. Many critics still feel, however, that
these are accretions which, together with, togehter with the miracles, can
be
safely shed without injury to a nucleus if historical fact. The argue that
p
agan Gods may have some of the attributes of Jesus, and although they may
hav
e been regarded as law givers and teachers, they did not leave behind a
coher
ent and profound teaching. Apollo, Osiris and the rest seem, therefore,
to be
obviously mythical, whereas Buddha and Jesus are not. The teachings of
each
of the latter, it is felt, bear the unmistakable of a single, unique mind.
Su
ch a doctrine could not have formed itself spontaneously."
_Pagan_Christs_, page 64.
The rite of baptism has already been discussed in this topic. Robertson
contends that the rite of baptism superceeded the rite of circumsicion.
This
makes sense to me. It is much less painful and physically safer to undergo
ritual initiation through baptism by water than by ritual circumcision.
The
gentile Christists would contend for this; and as the Jewish Christists
died
baptism did replace circumcision as a physical sign of new spiritual being.
"We shall consider the case of Buddha later. First let us look at the main
objections to this view that the existence of a body of teaching is
overwhelming evidence of the existence of an historical teacher. The earliest
Christian documents are ascribed to Paul. These epistles were written long
b
efore the canonical gospels were put together and accepted by the Church.
The
older protions, however, tell us nothing about the life of Jesus. The silenc
e of paul is remarkable if indeed he was familiar with the Jesuine biography.
Secondly, the unity of teaching, which it is said, would show it to have
bee
n the work of one mind is conspicuously absent. So far from displaying
cohren
ce, the ethical precepts are frequently obscure and contradictory. So far
fro
m being original, many of the sayings are merely quotations from Hebrew
liter
ature, and some have pagan parallels. As for the Sermon on the Mount, it
is n
o more than a patchwork of utterances found in the Old Testament."
_Pagan_Christs_ pg. 64
I was suprised to hear that some of the Epistles of Paul are the earliest
of the Christian writings. Anyone care to point us to an already typed in
dating of the N.T.? Care to type one in? If such is the case then it is
outstanding that as Paul was the first to write about mystery of the sacrific
e of Christ he tells us nothing of the life of Christ. It's as if he didn't
k
now. Surely he would have known such details being close to the original
twel
ve. Perhaps he didn't care, such details being meaningless as the ethics,
mys
tery and sacrifice of the God man were most important.
It seems the earliest of the gospel forms was lost with Matthew and Mark
being dependent opon these lost forms. This scans nicely. The earliest forms
were probably the purest of the Jewish Christian story of the Messiah. As
tim
e went by more of the pagan gentile influence was felt as needed. Various
features of the virgin birth of the God man, the nativity scenes, the Last
Supper, the betrayal, the crucifiction and mysterious ressurection were
incoroprated into the present gospels to appeal to pagan cultist.
Some scholars indicate that Revelations was next inline. This scans
nicely as it presents a supposedly Jewish-Christian eschotology. When one
looks at the symbolism one can see the Mazedian influence in Revelations.
Revelations seems to present a first or second step in the evolution of
the
Sacrifice and Resurrection of the God man. Perhaps a middle step is more
appropriate. A middle step between Jewish Messiah cults and Gentile Savour
cults.
It would be monumental to eliminate all supposedly contradictory and
questionable passages from the Gospels. Fortunately that work has already
bee
n done with some suprising, for me at least, outcomes. Here's one..
"For over a hundred years German scholars have been struggling to solve
this problem, and their efforts have been unavailing. In order to establish
some solid textual foundation for the historicity of Jesus, they have piled
hypothesis upon hypothesis with ever new refinements. The retreat from this
hopless task was finally sounded by the emminent German critic, O. Schmeidel.
Afer an exhuastive search, he was satisfied that he had discovered some
text
s which passes the most severe tests and were entirely credible. But in
the w
hole of the gospels all he could salvage were NINE such texts. Let us enumera
te this forlorn handful of unwounded survivors.
1) Mark XXX.17 [really mark 10.17] f.f. "Why callest me thou good?" etc.
2)
Matt XII.31 f.f. "Blasphemy against the Son of Man pardonable" 3) Mark III.21
"He is beside himself" 4) Mark XII.32 "Of that hour and day knoweth no
man"
5) Mark XV.34, Matt "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" etc. 6)
Mark
VIII.12 "No sign shall be given this generation." 7) Mark VI.5 "He was
able
to do no mighty work there." 8) Mark VIII.14-21 Rebuke to disciples concernin
g bread and leaven.." 9) Matt XI.5, Luke VII.22 Passage to be taken in
the se
nse of spiritual healing, since it ends with mention of preaching--not
a mira
cle at all."
_Pagan_Christs_ pgs 64,65.
What was the basis for selecting these texts? Basicly O. Sshmeiedel felt
that where Jesus speaks simply as a man, making no pretense to divinity,
or t
o miraculous powers, and where he is presented as failing to impress his
relatives and neighbors with any sense of his superiority--there the record
i
s entirely credible. I'll have to quote this because of the logical content..
.
J.M. Roberts quoting Schmeidel:
"According to Schmidel, these passages represent "the foundation pillars
for a truly scientific life of Jesus... They prove not only that in the
perso
n of Jesus we have to do with a completely human being, and that the divine
i
s sought in him only in the form in which it is capable of being found
in a m
an; THEY ALSO PROVE THAT HE REALLY DID EXIST, and that the Gospels contain
at
least SOME ABSOLUTELY TURSTWORTHY FACTS concerning him.
This will shock the believer without satisfying the scientific
naturalist. I submit that the propostition I have italicized is absolutely
untenable. On this point may be staked the whole dispute about the actuality
of the gospel Jesus. It simply does not follow that because a statement
is
credible it is therefore trustworth or proved. If it were so, half the
characters in fiction could be "proved" to be real people. Perfectly credible
statements are made about them." _Pagan_Christs_ pgs 64-65.
And I would add that perfectly credible statements are made by fictional
characters also. It is credible to pronounce that Joe Catholic said a hundred
Hail Marys this morning. Such is a credible statement concerning Catholics.
But is it trustworthy?
Such thinking requires a leap. The leap involves a thought process that
says what is possible must indeed be true. T.X. Huxley makes this same
mistake. Huxley says that Sauls visit with the Witch of Endor is entirely
probable, so there is no reason not to believe it. It is probable that I,
as
a child, fell into a dark hole for 3 days and nights. History is full of
discredited "probablilites".
To finish this section up I'd like to say that what applies to characters
of fiction must also apply to demigods and characters about whom there is
a
fable. Unless it can be shown on independent grounds how the credible story
came to be associated with the fable, we have no reason to accept one and
reject the other. There are instances of myths being built up on a basis
of
facutal events, but although this can be established in modern times, such
cases do not enable us to distinguish between the merely possible and the
actual in ancient tradition. Admittedly there are borderline cases, but
even
when these are free from supernaturalism they may often be doubted.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: All
Sub: well?
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:11:00
--------
EID:a718 1c2c3960
From: Tim Maroney
To: Ammond Shadowcraft
Subject: Re: Reclaiming Lucifer
Good message!
Every known religion supplanted an earlier religion, and usually some
derogatory mythological niche was created for the deities and spirits of
the older religion when this happened. In the case of Satan, he is a
fusion of our old friend the Horned God (especially in the Pan-form to
which he was best known by the Greek-speaking world) and the Judaic mythic
figure of Satan from the book of Job. But far from the loyal prosecuting
attorney of Job, Satan as formulated to insult pagans was made into an evil
nemesis of God, and the exemplar of what to the pain-worshipping Christians
was "sin", that is, anything ecstatic and joyful. Satan is constantly
telling us to get drunk, pig out on good food, and have sex in the
Christians' accounts, to which my reaction is "Amen".
I think you have put it very well when you say that "Even though [new
pagans] have thrown off the chains of Jehovah they still fear Lucifer.
They cringe at the sound of his name." Over and over we hear this shallow
refrain, that witches are NOT NOT NOT Satanists, and I think: Why the Hell
not? There's more wisdom in any one page of William Blake's overtly
Satanic "Marriage of Heaven and Hell" than in the whole corpus of
Starhawk's work, after all. (But then, Blake wrote sophisticated and
literate poetry, not folk tales, so few neo-pagans have read him.) What
are
these people so afraid of?
Not only are neo-pagans NOT NOT NOT Satanists, they are quite nasty toward
anyone who recognizes the deep truth of Satanism. One widely liked member
of this board called me a "neurotic Christian-lover" for espousing the
reading of Blake and Shaw's Satanic works. Needless to say, no neo-pagan
objected.
Within the last month a person interested in invoking Lucifer had his
account removed by one of the sysops, who said the reason was that "he was
extremely abusive"; of course, he didn't mention that the guy started out
polite and only became abusive after the aforesaid sysop himself sent some
*very* nasty and prejudiced messages to him. Again, zero objection from
the neo-pagans.
Similar examples abound; but I think things are beginning to loosen up on
this front, thanks to people like yourself, and (I like to think) because
of my continued pounding on the counter-consensual drum.
Tim
PS. You called for resources; aside from the Blake, there is Shaw's "The
Devil's Disciple", and you might want to check out Campbell's "Masks of
God" for more information on the mythic disparagement of older deities such
as happened to the Titans in Greek myth and various matriarchal deities.
Campbell's sympathies are clearly with the underdog.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: All
Sub: pagans
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:15:00
--------
EID:f7a0 1c2c39e0
This article is excerpted from the Rocky Mountain Pagan Journal.
Each issue of the Rocky Mountain Pagan Journal is published by
High Plains Arts and Sciences; P.O. Box 620604, Littleton Co.,
80123, a Colorado Non-Profit Corporation, under a Public Domain
Copyright, which entitles any person or group of persons to
reproduce, in any form whatsoever, any material contained therein
without restriction, so long as articles are not condensed or
abbreviated in any fashion, and credit is given the original
author.!
With this article, we welcome another writer to our pages:
Leanansidhe of Moonbeam is a Dianic High Priestess, currently
filling the role of High Priest in an all-female coven in
Littleton, Colo.
MATERIA DIANICA
Last issue I watched kindly old Buck Jump get body-slammed
by a Talmudic scholar. It was one of several articles in the
October R.M.P.J. that I found utterly terrifying, but first
things first; I'll get to the others in good time.
Buck Jump. The man of kindly greetings and peaceful
farewells. He had the idea that perhaps we might be able to
decrease senseless violence. And he got taken down. Dear Lady,
you could see the astro-turf fly.
His friend, the scholar, convinced him that his premises are
erroneous. As stated in Buck's column, the scholar said that
there is no such thing as senseless violence, that everyone who
behaves violently has a good and carefully thought out reason for
doing so. He then proceeded to give examples. All of this sounds
very logical, very rational, very reasonable. Why,then, does buck
still feel bad? Why, as evidenced in his October article, does he
still have the persistent feeling that something ought to be
done.
Logic only works in logical situations. Negotiating a
business deal, working out a mathematical equation, creating the
Unified Field Theory -- under circumstances such as these, logic
works just fine. Unfortunately, the use of logic in other situa-
tions proves to be disastrous, the misuse of an otherwise
valuable tool. I, for one, would be unwilling to wipe up spilled
baby formula with an Apple IIe(tm). A sponge is better. I use
what is applicable, what works.
Furthermore, as a nice, cleancut, apple-cheeked, bright-eyed
Pagan, I know that in order to make any progress at all, one must
stay balanced. Logic is only one quarter of the pie. Emotion,
Will, and Physical Reality comprise the rest. Are you hearing
me, Buck? Are you hearing me, Mr. Talmudic scholar?
Our man here is talking about natural facts, and is using
that idea to refute poor Buck (Hang in there, Buck --I'm on your
side, honest). At the risk of skinning my dirty Pagan knees on
the pristine marble floor of the Temple of Logic, I will myself
bring up a number of "natural facts".
Presented for your examination: our tough street punk. He
lives in a government subsidized development. Welfare comprises
the entire family income. He can't get a decent paying job
because he's not old enough and he doesn't have the training
anyway. And even if he took something at minimum wage, the
welfare for the whole family would be cut drastically. So what's
the use? Our tough punk doesn't know anything about coffee shops
and the refined nit-picking of Talmudic scholarship; all he knows
is the street, and that one way to get power is with money, and
the other is with a gun. (Governments know the same things.)
He's also intimately acquainted with anger, frustration, and
hate. So he takes a cheap handgun and holds up the local pizza
shop, cleans $15.21 out of the till, aims the gun at the head of
the blond, suburban, polo shirted kid behind the counter...
Anger. Frustration. Is he thinking? Answer quick, because the
next slug might be for you.
Take another example. This time our man is 25, high school
diploma, out of work for the hundredth time. Unemployment has
run out. Bad food. Bad clothes. Trapped. And what's this?
Some little bitch walking around in her Yves San Laurent business
suit, with a $300 dollar briefcase, thinking she's hot shit
because she's got a job and he doesn't. Well, he's gonna show
her what her place in the world is. So, he follows her, grabs
her at the front door of her Cherry Creek apartment... Anger.
Frustration. Is he thinking? Does he have sensible, rational
reasons? Or maybe he's just reacting. Answer please, and fumble
for your can of mace.
Maybe what both of these dudes and their victims need is
time. An extra microsecond between the tight -ening of the
finger on the trigger and the fall of the hammer; Another minute
between the appearance of the Yves San Laurent skirt and the
attack at the door. Time to think, time to consider.
Or maybe what is needed is a way out. An escape from
welfare, from the development. A new job. Some self respect.
Or maybe the opportunity for violence simply never comes up. Or
maybe the idea of violence is rejected and in its place comes
something better, something more constructive. In any of the
above alternative scenarios, no one gets hurt. The kid in the
polo shirt has hot dogs with his family next Fourth; the woman
lies in the arms of her lover that night, talking about dreams.
If there is an answer to these situations and the millions
of others like them, it has to be infinitely flexible, and it has
to encompass the entire world, the entire universe, in the
solution. Logic cannot do it. We can argue and plan as much as
we want, and as Buck found, it all leads to stasis, inaction, and
another cup of coffee.
But there is such an answer, and as the body of the Goddess
is the stuff of the universe, it lies in our hands: Magick. No,
we cannot create a mass mind change, nor can we control the
actions of large groups of people. We would not want to. It
would be pointless, and in any case that is not the way magick
works.
What is our goal? We want that kid in the pizza shop and
the woman with the briefcase to get home all right. So let us
work for that. No it is not logical. But magick never is.
Magick finds its own way, takes the easiest route to its goal,
whether that route be a microsecond, a sudden idea, or a freak
rain storm.
Buck's solution was a real, intuitive, emotional one, and it
was to work for the world, for our people. Our Talmudic Scholar
thinks in logical patterns: in order to end violence, you have
to alter nature, or intimidate someone, or cause mass mind
change. But our scholar is limited by the tool he uses. Buck is
not. Nor are we.
Pump enough magic into something, and things start to
happen. An it harm none, they will be good things. But we know
this already, do we not? Because we feel it.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: Night of the Living Dead
Date: 10 Jan 94 12:46:51
--------
EID:10ca 066e5e72
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d3466f2
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
_The Skeptical Review_ Pages 14-15: winter 1992
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RESURRECTED SAINTS?
Ed Babinski
Two short verses in Matthew raise perhaps the most serious questions that
can be put to a literal interpretation of the resurrection stories. Matthew
said that at the moment of Jesus' death "the tombs were opened; and many
bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of
the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and
appeared unto many" (27:52-53). This is an account of a miracle unsurpassed
anywhere else in the gospels. It makes the postresurrection appearing of
Jesus "to above five hundred brethren at once" (1 Cor. 15:6) appear tame
in
comparison.
In this case, many saints were raised and appeared to many. Unlike the
accounts of Jesus raising Lazarus or the synagogue ruler's daughter or Jesus
himself being raised, this depicts saints dead for way over "three days"
being raised. And, from the phrase, "they entered the holy city and ap-
peared to many," it is possible to infer that these many raised saints
showed themselves to many who were not believers! Yet Josephus, who wrote
a
history of Jerusalem both prior to and after her fall, i.e., forty years
after the death of Jesus, knew of Jesus but nothing of this raising of many
and appearing to many. Of this greatest of all miracles, not a rumor
appears in the works of Josephus or of any other ancient author. Surely
at
least one of the
many raised out of those many emptied tombs was still alive just prior to
Josephus's time, amazing many. Or at least many who had seen those many
saints were still repeating the tale. Although people may have doubted
that
Jesus raised a few people while he was still alive and although "some doubt-
ed" Jesus' own resurrection (Matt. 28:17), who could fail to have been im-
pressed by many risen saints appearing to many? How also could Peter have
neglected to mention them in his Jerusalem speech a mere fifty days after
they "appeared to many in the holy city"? Surely their appearance must
have
been foremost on everyone's mind. So why didn't Paul mention such a thing
in his letters, our earliest sources? Why did the women who visited the
"empty tomb" on Sunday morning not take notice that many other tombs were
likewise open? Why didn't the visitors to Jesus' tomb mention that they
had
met or seen many raised saints in that vicinity, meeting them on the way
to
Jesus' tomb or on the way back to town? Why did the apostles disbelieve
the
first reports of Jesus' resurrection when a mass exit from the tombs had
accompanied his resurrection? Why didn't Matthew know how many raised
saints there were? Why couldn't he name a single one or a single person
to
whom they had appeared? How did Matthew know that these saints had come
out of their tombs? That would be more than anyone had seen in the case
of
Jesus' resurrection.
Let's look at the implications of some of these questions. According to
the literal Greek in Matthew 27:50-53, the tombs were opened and the saints
were "raised" at the instant of Jesus' death, but they entered the city
over
a day later! Apparently, neither Joseph of Arimathea nor Nicodemus, while
burying Jesus (Jn. 19:38-40), chanced to marvel at all the opened graves
and
the raised saints in them waiting patiently for Sunday morning. The women
in Matthew's account were likewise oblivious to the many graves lying opened
by the earthquake and the saints supposedly just beginning to leave the
cemetery for town the same morning the women were arriving. And the other
gospels were silent on this major miracle involving many! Paul was silent
on this matter in 1 Corinthians 15, where he discussed the resurrection
at
great length! Peter was silent on the matter in his speech recorded in
Acts
2, delivered a mere 50 days after the many saints entered the city and
appeared to many! Surely the "gift of tongues" would pale in miraculous
significance compared to the "raising of the many who appeared to many."
Yet
Peter said nothing about the latter. We are not talking about just the
apostles, like Peter, being witnesses to just the resurrection of Jesus;
we
are talking about many people who had witnessed many saints being raised,
and some of these "many" witnesses were surely present in the audience Peter
preached to that morning. So why would he have had to speak at length to
convince them that the resurrection of one man had happened? Having
witnessed the resurrection of many, they would have readily accepted the
claim that one man had been resurrected.
And what about the raised saints themselves? Wouldn't they have made
terrific evangelists? But we don't read anything about that; instead, we
have silence. We admit that to argue from silence is not equivalent to
dis-
proof; however, it is not the silence of extrabiblical sources that makes
us
doubt this account of multiple resurrections. It is the silence of other
biblical authors that is generating our doubt.
A few extrabiblical sources did expand Matthew's tale of the many raised
saints. These expansions were composed over one hundred years after
Matthew's gospel was written. Remarkably, they even mentioned the names
of
some of the "many saints" raised, like Simeon and his sons, Adam and Eve,
the patriarchs and prophets, etc., names that Matthew neglected to include.
Of course, these expansions of the two extraordinary verses in Matthew and
the list of names are found only in apocryphal gospels, which are full of
all sorts of marvelous miracles that even surpass the ones attributed to
Jesus in the four gospels that the church now endorses (like the story of
the talking cross that followed Jesus out of his tomb in the Gospel of
Peter).
Perhaps Matthew, like the authors of the apocryphal gospels, collected
tales he had heard from other believers and/or composed gospel fictions.
Perhaps when he composed those two short verses, he was only giving mythi-
cal form to the belief that "the resuscitation of the righteous was assigned
to the first appearance of the Messiah, in accordance with the Jewish ideas"
(D. F. Strauss, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined). He was also
indulging in miracle enhancement: multiplying signs and wonders said to
accompany Jesus'
death and resurrection, i.e., Matthew's unique account of two earthquakes,
one that opened the tombs of the many saints (at Jesus' death) and one that
moved the stone to open Jesus' tomb (Easter morning). The other gospel
writers remarkably neglected to mention that even one earthquake took place.
That leaves Matthew's account on doubly shaky ground. Neither did Matthew
use the most precise words to depict this wonder, because the verses state,
literally, that the saints were raised at the time of Jesus' death and then
lay around in their tombs for a day and a halfbefore entering the city!
That absurdity arises from what appears to be a sloppy interpolation of
the
phrase "after his resurrection":
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his
spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from
the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks
were rent; and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the
saints that had fallen asleep were raised: and coming forth out of
the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city
and appeared unto many (27:50-53).
The verses make more sense without that phrase than with it. Without it,
they would simply state that the raised saints immediately entered the city
upon Jesus' death. But some Christian copyist, or perhaps the gospel's
chief editor, felt obligated to add the phrase "after his resurrection"
to
ensure the priority of Jesus' resurrection, regardless of the literal
consequences.
People who believe that many tombs were opened and that many saints
appeared to many will of course have little trouble also believing that
Jesus was resurrected. However, those of us who doubt the story of the many
raised saints see in it a reflection of the kind of blind faith that made
the story of Jesus' resurrection catch on in the first place.
(Ed Babinski's address is 109 Burwood Drive, Simpsonville, SC 29681-
8768.)
*********************************
JESUS ADVANCED IN WISDOM?
A TSR reader who also subscribes to Christian Courier has pointed out
another flaw in editor Wayne Jackson's thinking. In an article entitled
"Amazing Grace" (October 1991, p. 1), without even as much as a mental
blink, Jackson quoted Luke 2:52, where it was said that Jesus "advanced
in
wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." "How could this be?"
our subscriber asked, since Jesus, allegedly, was God, the Word who had
created all things in the beginning (Jn. 1:1-3).
This does appear to pose a problem for Jackson and his inerrantist col-
leagues. If Jesus was God who created all things (Col. 1:16), then surely
he
was omniscient. How could it possibly be, then, that he "advanced in wisdom"
when he was a child? Are we to understand that omniscience can increase
its
knowledge? Furthermore, when Luke said that Jesus advanced in favor with
God, what did this mean? That Jesus had advanced in favor with himself?
We
invite Mr. Jackson to answer these perplexing questions, but his past
record of refusing such invitations, tells us that he will probably refuse
this one too.
********************************
FREE SUBSCRIPTION: A free one-year subscription to The Skeptical
Review can be obtained by writing to P. O. Box 617, Canton, IL 61520-0617.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Adam...
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:13:32
--------
EID:5bce 1c2c41a0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d33b629
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d323d38
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Bamford writes to Derek Clayton:
DC>> If he was perfect then how did pride get the best of him?
RB> Do you understand the concept of free will and being perfect, as regards
RB> this issue?
Oh I see. So he was perfect in so far as to allow him to become evil without
any fault on God's part.
RB> in a relationship with God. This would mean, that when God created
RB> Lucifer, that he was perfect in character and in perfect union with
God.
RB> It doesn't mean that this state can never change, as you seem to think
it
RB> should.
I never said it shouldn't change. The question is : how would it change?
Eith
er satan was made with the capacity to choose evil (not just the option)
or he
was corrupted into choosing evil (simply regressing the question).
Free will does not make people choose evil it allows the option to do evil.
He
nce a perfectly good being, even one with free will, would never choose
evil.
RB> Lucifer means, but was now the 'advesary', which is what Satan means.
Fr
ee
RB> will implies that one can choose to change what state they are currently
RB> in. Lucifer went from submitting his will to God, to working within
his
RB> own will, both are actions of free will.
Then we can conclude that Lucifer was MADE flawed in some way. Lucifer
could
either have been made perfectly good, or not...regardless of free will.
If he
had been made perfectly good, then even with free will, he would never choose
evil (just as you and I have free will but are not running around killing
sma
ll children). So Lucifer was not made perfectly good. Hence, he was made
mor
e evil then a being who would be perfectly good. According to myth, this
litt
le bit of evil (which prevented him from being perfectly good) caused him
to r
ebel against his creator and cause havoc amongst humanity. Really, it appears
that we are all victims of a sadistic god.
It's sort of like me creating bombs that may or may not go off in a crowded
bu
ilding. When one finally goes off : "whoops, don't blame me, it was the
bomb'
s fault". If god was omniscient then he knew it was going to happen which
ma
kes him twice the sadist.
So the question still remains. Why did god not create beings with free
will w
ho never chose to do evil?
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Derek Clayton
To: David Rice
Sub: Some Christian Churches
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:36:48
--------
EID:d1d5 1c2c4480
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d33b6e9
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d32cc08
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to All:
DR> Some racist white supremacist organizations. Try and spot
DR> a recurrent theme. . . .
The christian capacity to hate is astounding.
"The inquistition, what a show! The inquisition..."
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Alan Hess
Sub: mythology
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:41:30
--------
EID:1f1b 1c2c4520
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d33b82b
REPLY: 1:261/1000 3a126d0a
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Alan:
In a msg of , Alan Hess writes to all:
AH> Why are there so many people in this world who so believe their particula
r
AH> mythology is better than everyone else's that they have to push their
AH> beliefs on folks who aren't interested? If one is happy with one's
AH> religious mythology, fine - enjoy it. But leave others alone.
Yeah, but christians have a habit of throwing their belief in your face
punctu
ated either by a night on the rack or a bullet in the back.
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Adam...
Date: 07 Jan 94 20:04:00
--------
EID:5b85 1c27a080
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A89
-> Dan Lafferty got back to Martin Goldberg Re: Adam...
MG> Aside from this anceint book of mythology, could you give us
MG> any real evidence that your god exists?
DL> Can you give ANY evidence that he doesn't? The answer is that there
DL> is no solid evidence either way. Did you know that it is impossable
to
DL> prove a universal negative? You can not say that there is no evidence
DL> unless you have torn the earth apart molecule by molecule, that you
Ok, you win. You proved that your god it the best there
ever was at hid n' seek. Now, trot him out here so that
we can give him his reward.
... Dan Lafferty's cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Greg Nienaltowski
Sub: Christian Rights
Date: 07 Jan 94 20:23:00
--------
EID:42cc 1c27a2e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8A
-> Greg Nienaltowski got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Christian Rights
DC> the right to infringe on others' rights to avoid your
DC> intrusiveness on their rights.
GN> Try substituting 'chess' for Christian and Gospel. Most Unis.
That sounds more reasonable, as chess is much more
educational game.
GN> government s can tolerate these hobbies, why are you opposed to people
GN> practicing their religion in the same way? In what way is what Scott
I had no idea that religion was merely a hobby. As it
seems so death oriented, I can only assume that it's
similar to D&D.
GN> Depending on the project, neither statement makes much sense.
GN> If Scott means that he would like to use Creation Theory over
GN> Evolution, how would you suppose he do as you ask? Also, to do so (C.T.
Oh, I see you are refering to his putting together a complete
project on fiction. He would have a bit more lattitude there.
GN> Again, if the U. endorses or allows other non-educational
GN> activities (such as pep-rallies, etc.) then why should it BAN religious
Yes, your right, religion is non-educational.
SS> * Freedom to be a living witness for Jesus Christ.
DC> As long as you witlessness does not infringe on others
DC> that do not want to partake in your drivel.
GN>
GN> Say that to a gay activist.
Ok, we don't want to participate in your drivel.
GN> ... Do Religious Songs Lose their Fervour If You Haven't Seen the
GN> Light? -!- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12
Do you catch it on your tonsils?
And heave it left and right?
Does your chewing gum lose it's flavor
on the bedpost over night?
... Monotheism is a gift from the gods.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Styx Allum
Sub: DeBunkers: Archie & Edith
Date: 07 Jan 94 20:27:00
--------
EID:4e6c 1c27a360
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8B
-> Styx Allum got back to Marty Leipzig Re: DeBunkers: Archie & Edith
> Just floundering along...on porpoise, no less.
SA> Nah. I just say these puns for the halibut.
SA> Kinda like Bob Hope singing "Tanks... for the manatees...".
Just the other night, I saw him in a special with Dolly
Parton. I know he sang it "Thanks, ooohh yesss! Thanks
for the mammaries!"
... Dolly Parton to Mrs Folger: Yes, they are Mountain Grown!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Literal mindedness
Date: 07 Jan 94 20:49:00
--------
EID:1689 1c27a620
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8C
-> Jesse C. Jones got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Literal mindedness
JCJ> is stupefying! Allegory is a mere literary device. The absence of
JCJ> allegory does not mean a story is intended as literally true.
DC> If it's neither/nor either/or who determines the correct
DC> assessment?
JCJ> What's your point? Who said it had to be easy? Does it offend
JCJ> your scientific mind that there are no pat answers?
My point is, that someone makes the determination of the
meaning of the bible. If it's as fact, than that is
easily proven false an most all accounts therein. If it's
as allegory, than the interpretation varies by the
annotator. In either case, the validy is left in doubt.
DC> Why is it that the bible refers to the gods that take human wives
JCJ> This story, of the birth of the Nephilim in Genesis 6:1-4, is
JCJ> believed to be a fragment of mythology from some other culture woven
JCJ> into the Genesis account to explain the increase in violence (see Gen.
JCJ> 6:11). The Nephilim also appear in Numbers 13:33. Their origin
JCJ> remains obscure, however.
Strange..... The bible seems to refer to them as the "sons
of God". That would imply that they came down from heaven and
stole the women from the humans god had created.
... Good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go everywhere.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Maybe you can tell me
Date: 07 Jan 94 20:59:00
--------
EID:0042 1c27a760
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8D
-> Kelsey Bjarnason got back to Steve Quarrella Re: Maybe you can tell me
SQ>references. You MUST worship them, I suppose.
SQ>Tuesday Tyr(sp?)'s day
SQ>Wednesday Odin's day
SQ>Thursday Thor's day
SQ>Friday Freya(sp?)'s day
SQ>Saturday
KB> Now, Sunday, Monday and Saturday are curious. Sun and Mon are
KB> similar to the pronunciation of the Icelandic words for "first" and
KB> "second", and Saturday is apparently phonetically similar to the
KB> Icelandic for "washing day" - and is the day of the week on which
KB> which washing was commonly done.
Kelsey, try:
Saturday: Saturn's Day
Sunday: Sun's Day
Monday: Moon's Day
I'll drop the Saturn stuff off to you Friga's Day. Can you
get it done by Wodin's day? Easy on the starch, please. :)
... I never met a man I didn't like. -- Will Rogers
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Strickland
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 07 Jan 94 21:04:00
--------
EID:6440 1c27a880
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8E
-> David Strickland got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Maybe You Can Tell Me
DS> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> It is fun, isn't it.....
DS> You better believe it!
Here's anothe "M" one that seems like it'll fly..
... +Origin: MONTGOLFIERS Network! Hot wind bags for Jeezus!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Donovan Woodside
Sub: Response to "living the g
Date: 07 Jan 94 21:12:00
--------
EID:342f 1c27a980
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A8F
-> Donovan Woodside got back to Alan Jennings Re: Response to "living the
g
[lines of non-quoting, deleted]
DW> us more to this life. Fall, spring, summer, winter...Jesus is the
DW> reason for all seasons
Hopefully, he is also the reason for quoting.... You
do know what a quote is, don't you? It's what ties the
threads together so someone knows what it is that
you are talking about.
... It's over when the fat lady sits on your face.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 07 Jan 94 21:22:00
--------
EID:3f46 1c27aac0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A90
-> Joe Savelli got back to Jason Rosendale Re: Well folks....
JS> Jason, watch CBN news and see the films for yourself (if you dare)...
Is that the show that has the story about the guy arrested
in that Florida restaurant for praying?
Nahh, I didn't think so...
BTW, how long have you not been using a text editor to write
your messages? Must be tough having to use Edlin as your
main word processor.
... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy and go well with Brie!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: DeBunkers: Archie and Edi
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:01:00
--------
EID:146b 1c283020
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A91
-> David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: DeBunkers: Archie and Edi
DC> David, your projecting human attributes on the animal. As far
DC> as her fawns are concerned, they stopped needing her as soon
DR> Er, I was kidding.
Sorry, that produces goats. :)
DC> willing to help perserve both the deer population as well as
DC> the necessary wild land they need to survive.
DR> Because humans killed off the creatures that prey on deer. Shooting
DR> deer is a temporary fix. Humans need to stop reproducing, and wait
DR> until the human population decreases drastically. Then reintroduce
DR> predators and prey.
Well, they are trying to re-introduce wolves to places like
Yellowstone Park. The ranchers in the area are not what you
would call overly enthusiastic.
As for population decrease, if that idiot in Russia gets
elected, we should be able to get rid of a sizable chunk of
humanity _real_ quick. Would you go along with a with a
saber tooth tiger for good population control on humans?
BTW, I do hate any hunter that is out there simply for the
throphy. Those, and the jerks that wound an animal and
don't track it down and finish it off, or destroy private
and public land, etc. There are some excellent hunters out
there, but the aformentioned give the sport a very bad name.
... Kennedy School of Swimming... automobile required.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:10:00
--------
EID:592a 1c283140
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A92
-> C. J. Henshaw got back to Rob Bamford Re: Faith
CJH> Do you, Rob Bamford, have any proof that your god is any more real
CJH> than the 50 kg satanic anvil over your head?
C. J., you may have the location of the anvil misplaced.
Didn't you mean to type "in your head"? If that was the
case, you just may have proved his point....
... +Origin: DNA Network: Twisted Genetic Material for Jeezus!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Guess who's coming to din
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:23:00
--------
EID:b0e2 1c2832e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A93
-> Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Guess who's coming to din
JCJ> The Reign of God.
DC> are tryng to find is "Reins".....
ML> After the celestial keg party, wouldn't that be the "Rains" of
ML> God?
As I'm sure the keg was large, the hangover would have
to be the "Ruins" of god. But it's not cut in stone.
... I believe that God does inflict His presense upon the earth. S Bedard
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:35:00
--------
EID:e0fa 1c283460
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A94
-> David Rice got back to Marty Leipzig Re: Monkey wrenching
DR> and ordered it to stoped (which was too late). How do you justify
DR> your actions and yet denounce tree-spikers?
Not defending the poor track record of the logging industry,
I have to agree with Marty on tree spiking.
It is legal to gather downed wood for firewood around
here. As the tree was felled be accident, n.g. high
winds or heavy rains, the tree may now be unmarked or the
marks hidden.
Now, enter unsuspecting person looking to keep his family
warm for the winter. Exit, blinded, wounded man.
... Save the Whales! Collect the whole set!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:41:00
--------
EID:4aa6 1c283520
MSGID: 1:350/401 86262A95
-> David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Not True Christian(tm)
DC> and British are our allies, so I guess that mkes it ok for
DC> them to kill each other.
DR>
DR> Too messy. America only wars on nations that cannot fight back.
At least we learned our lesson in Viet Nam well. Our next
outing was the evil and powerful country of Granada.
... Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. -- Heinlein
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Jan 94 04:30:00
--------
EID:6ef0 1c2923c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A84
-> Len Ovens got back to Derek Clayton Re: Aids Kills
DC> How does human existence make the existence of God (or any god)
DC> probable?
LO>
LO> Actually I was speaking of life in general. Life is an anomoly, that
LO> is it should not exist, it must have been created.
I guess that explains why we are working so hard to destroy
the life we do have on this planet. You will find that most
polytheistic religions show a better respect for this planet
than the monotheistic ones.
... Save the planet...we might need it later...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Ciya is behind you!
Date: 09 Jan 94 04:44:00
--------
EID:94e1 1c292580
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A85
-> Len Ovens got back to Robert Curry Re: Ciya is behind you!
LO> On 12-23-93 Robert Curry wrote to Len Ovens...
RC> LO>> look I see God and his works.
RC> LO> I don't believe in any "gods".
LO> message). I am sorry to hear you have a problem reading, and can not
LO> distigush the difference between a proper name and a noun. If you
do
LO> even a little research (beyond you I know), you will find the
LO> difference between "gods" , "god thing" and God. They are not the
If you check the dictionary:
god (n) 1. any of various beings concieved to be supernatural
or immortal.
LO> others, that is YOUR arguments, and comments actually have to make
LO> sense, even if in a nonsense sort of way (do you know any other?).
His comments make more sense than you may realize. The
"God" definition is # 3 in the dictionary, and symbolizes
the name of the monotheistic religions. Note the "s" in
religions. It is a theo-centric device used to convince
it's followers are worshiping the "correct" god. Goes
a long way to explain the hatred and wars fought between
X-tians, Moslems and Jews.
... Ronnies god, _Ad Hoc_, has a nickname: Ad Naseum
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Len Ovens
Sub: evidence
Date: 09 Jan 94 04:48:00
--------
EID:02a0 1c292600
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A86
-> Len Ovens got back to Robert Curry Re: evidence
RC> But your God _does_ exist. In your imagination.
LO>
LO> And you call my answers bad, Show (or perhaps shut up ) that God
LO> is in my imagination and is not the creator. I've heard terms thrown
LO> around,but no proof or even explaination. Perhaps your explaination
Len you are the one making the extraordinary claim. It is
up to you to provide the extraordinary proof.
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Dss
Date: 09 Jan 94 06:25:00
--------
EID:f183 1c293320
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A87
-> Marty Leipzig got back to Styx Allum Re: Dss
SA> No, that was her kissin' cousin. She's dead now. (Polygon)
ML> So sad. However, with her morels, I'd show no lachrymorse.
What's with all this mush? Room is needed for the fungi
to grow. All this light humor is stemming their thinking
caps.
ML> vodka? That'll really scotch up the works, and cause the
ML> audience to shout catcalls and booze.
Oh, quite your wining. Wiskey makes them friskey, but
other liquors are quicker.
SA> Hillary Clinton: Too late to denominator?
ML> Yes. But not too late to have her disemballed.
Damn, they must be a real big pair of scissors.
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 09 Jan 94 06:37:00
--------
EID:d8ba 1c2934a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A88
-> Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Maybe You Can Tell Me
DC> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG> Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
Works for them... too bad there's nobody out there
waving a checkered flag so they'll stop.
... +Origin: LICENTIOUS! Network: Being a Televangelist for Jeezus!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: The Reign of God is at ha
Date: 09 Jan 94 07:00:00
--------
EID:8f1d 1c293800
MSGID: 1:350/401 86272A89
-> Steve Quarrella got back to Jesse C. Jones Re: The Reign of God is at
ha
JC> There is, IMO, no "Second Coming" of Christ on the clouds.
SQ>
SQ> Your Bible says there is. So how do you decide which parts of your
SQ> Bible are allegorical, and which should be ignored?
Steve, I've asked him that, but have not gotten a straight
answer, either. As something that was presented as "fact"
is debunked, it gets moved into the allegorical column. At
the rate things are going, there will soon be only only
a column "A" to choose from.
I wonder if he'll decide to go to a different restaurant?
... Faith in a god is fear of facing the future.
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--------
From: Paul Boyer
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 10 Jan 94 14:53:00
--------
EID:ff28 1c2a76a0
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862754B9
SQ|As I mentioned to you in netmail (and to Martin Goldberg at dinner last
|night), two Christian co-workers the other night were gleefully suggesting
|that homosexuals be given the electric chair. It got very silent when
I
|gleefully suggested that I wouldn't mind seeing Christians persecuted for
|THEIR "unnatural" beliefs, in the 21st century. I don't like hatred, but
|I have to admit to a bit of hope that the hatemongers get a bit of what
|they dish out so well. The problem is that that's what they want (Witness
|Jesse...).
If you want to really confuse your Christian co-workers, ask them to
explain the meaning of Luke 17:34-35 (KJV is the best for this one).
I've gotten Fundamentalists REALLY confused with this Scriptural quote.
It's amazing to watch their brains work overtime trying to rationalise
their inerrantist beliefs with something so obviously at odds with the
rest of their precious Holy Writ.
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
* OLX 2.1 * I was an only child. Eventually...
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: Jerry Lee Faust, Jr.
To: David Rice
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 12 Jan 94 00:01:00
--------
EID:a52a 1c2c0020
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Well, in answer to your question, I believe that homosexual activity is
wrong
because it is not the ideal that our loving God has for us. Unlike the
Vict
orian fear of sex, biblical Christianity teaches that sex is great, awesome,
fun, and created by God- see Genesis and the Song of Solomon. Sex is great
b
ut sometimes certain aspects of sex (such as homosexuality, pedophilia,
and r
ape) can be harmful to one or more of the participants.
I feel that the reason God gives any rule is because of His love; God is
defi
nitely not trying to "take the fun" out of people's lives. God's love motiva
tes me to obey Him; I obey Him not because I am forced to, but because I
want
to; I know that there is purpose in God's instruction.
Last week a certain man in our church died. A talented musician, he contract
ed AIDS through a homosexual relationship some time ago. During this time,
h
e had been unfaithful to his wife; when he returned to a sexual relationship
with her, he unknowingly gave her the HIV virus which was aquired through
his
affair. Despite these circumstances, our church did not condemn him or
blam
e him for what happened. Our congregation loved this family and love lives
o
n, even after his death.
Again, that homosexuality is wrong is not as important as the truth that
homo
sexuality can be forgiven. God loves every gay/lesbian/bisexual individual
o
n this planet. If Jesus was born in this century, he would probably hang
out
with these individuals.
Thanks for asking and I'll see you around the echo!
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:02:46
--------
EID:f2dc 1c2c3840
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d33e6e6
CE> The greeting as a single phrase means "pleasant greetings, welcome
CE> to my water", a welcome greeting to those who
CE> travelled far to partake
CE> at Tellico.
ML> The latter portion of the Navajo greeting translates (loosely)
ML> to: "Where the hell you been? Good to see that you're back."
"Lets party out, d00d!"
ML> ... You are being watched. Cut out the hanky-panky for a few days.
So what else is new? I hear and obey oh mighty hole-driller.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Bill Wolff
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: PAINTING A DIFFERENT PICTURE
Date: 10 Jan 94 08:30:00
--------
EID:d342 1c2a43c0
MSGID: 1:115/769.2 304c65ca
On (07 Jan 94) Martin Goldberg wrote to Bill Wolff...
MG> I see you're back...
I've never been gone.
MG> ... tell us Mr. Factualist....tell us about punctuated
MG> evolution and how it doesn't count as being evolution at all.
No what I have been saying is that you people don't have enough
intelligence to understand anything beyond the basics. You still
live in the dark ages and believe evolution happened just as you
stated it has.
Oh btw, you were also wrong about gene splicing between plant and
animal. It does in fact work. But since your just an offspring from
an ape, what would you know?
--- PPoint 1.74
* Origin: A Professional (Windy City) Point System (1:115/769.2)
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Heathens
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:39:48
--------
EID:69fc 1c2c84e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e24
with: Jesse C. Jones
MB> heathen n. 1 a : an unconverted member of a people or nation that
MB> does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. b : a person whose
MB> culture or enlightenmnet is of an inferior grade; esp ; an
MB> irreligious person. b : a person felt to resemble a heathen
MB> (as in nonconformity or ignorance).
MB>
MB> Sort of conjured up images of loincloths and spears, doesn't it?
CE> How do you tell a heathen from a pagan?
The Pagans have better mead.
---
Picard: "Opinions, anyone?"
Geordie: "You could get a hair transplant."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in "morality
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:40:08
--------
EID:1e00 1c2c8500
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e38
DR> * 751 pregnant women seeking free care at a prenatal clinic run
DR> by Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn., near the Oak Ridge
DR> nuclear facility, were given radioactive pills in the 1940s in
DR> order to study the long-term effects of radiation on children; a
DC> You've got to be kidding here! (though I regret your aren't)
Alas, would that I were. ("Huh?")
DC> Where did we learn how to do this shit? The only thing I can
DC> think of is that the US found and continued the "scientific"
DC> research that was conducted by Josef Mengele.
With so much American Governmental evil, it's easy to stuble across
such stuff. That particular article was written in _Workers_World_,
and is a result of the recent FOIA releases on the subject by network
news media.
Let's all move to Iran.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:40:22
--------
EID:0565 1c2c8500
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e46
with: David Worrell
>DW> No, I don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution is a fact. I
>DW> believe the Theory of evolution is at least a good
>DW> approximation of what happened.
DK> Well, which is it? a theory or a fact?
Evolution is a fact. Evolutionary Theory is a theory.
DK> It is most certainly not a FACT
Evolution is. Evolutionary Theory isn't, though it is correct.
DK> although as of the last few years, it has been taught in public
DK> schools as fact.
I hardly consider 135 years "the last few."
DK> Anyone willing to have an open mind and do a little research
DK> into the very fields that you like to quote from for your
DK> evidence, will doubtless find that the parameters for life to
DK> exsist on this planet leave little margin for error, and how
DK> all of these things point to a Creator[sic].
Anyone with an open mind will discover that qualtum pigmum in the
space of parapeep range existing on this planet leave mikelp bejoran
tannum, and how all of these things point to Green Martians.
---
Picard: "Opinions, anyone?"
Geordie: "You could get a hair transplant."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: RC Query #1 redux
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:40:42
--------
EID:534e 1c2c8500
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e5a
In case you missed it:
------------------------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones Jan-10-94 08:29:02
Subject: RC Query #1 redux
Here is the question you admitted that you never answered:
Do you, Jesse Jones, have evidence that your god Yahweh is
any less dependent on imagination than my goddaughter's
friend Ciya?
If you do have any such evidence, please say so. If you do not have
any such evidence, then there is nothing wrong with that; just say so.
Or you may continue with last year's repetitive evasions, and stated
refusal to answer the question. But just in case you made a New
Year's Resolution to be forthright and honest, rather than evasive,
here is your chance to turn over a new leaf by finally answering.
Answers to questions you know I never asked _still_ don't count. :-)
---
Picard: "Opinions, anyone?"
Geordie: "You could get a hair transplant."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Guess who's coming to di
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:40:58
--------
EID:8af7 1c2c8500
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e6a
with: Dan Ceppa wrote and Jesse C. Jones
>>JCJ> The Reign of God.
>DC> I do believe that that was misspelled. The word that you
>DC> are tryng to find is "Reins".....
LO> Same root either word will do. Would you prefer some one else
LO> to hold the "reins"? I'd rather work for my creator[s] than
LO> myself.
That's very selfish of them to expect. If you so completely
surrender your only life for your parents, what will you do when
they die? Why not live your own life? How can you justify giving
your entire life to them? Just what did they do that made you
feel so guilty you own them servitude?
Please, for your own sake, seek therapy. Your family is sick and
desterately needs help. PLEASE.
---
Picard: "So, what is your name and position?"
Worf: "My name is Worf and I'm leaning against the railing, facing
forward"
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Yule Cards
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:41:14
--------
EID:7e23 1c2c8520
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e7a
DR> Hey, I got to see the ORIGINAL original. Maybe next
DR> year I'll actually stop blushing enough to introduce
DR> myself (I'm shy).
MG> Was she wearing her "Duck" slippers?
Curiously enough, the word "wearing" doesn't apply.
Maybe if I attend DF'94 I'll ask her where her ducks are.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Mike Staab
Sub: All Or Anyone
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:41:24
--------
EID:710c 1c2c8520
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e84
MS> Hello, I'm new to this echo and would be interested in
MS> discussing anything related to religion. I'm a Christian
MS> and am letting you know this up front. I don't like to
MS> play games, but do enjoy sound reasoning. Anyone
MS> interested?
If you enjoyed "sound reasonsing," you wouldn't be a Christian.
---
"Picard, any card." -- BarTrek
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: "Missing day"
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:41:34
--------
EID:abf8 1c2c8520
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346e8e
>>>DR> I did think about the Mormon claim. But then, they also claim
>>>DR> elephants in North America.
>RC> Elephants?
>DR> What?! You haven't memoried your Book of Mormon?! Ether 6:19.
RC> Er, I haven't even read the entire Book of Mormon. Thanks
RC> anyway - I can look it up now for later reference.
That was a joke, son! No one with a brain reads the "Book of Mormon"
unless they are doing so for ammusment, or to answer the question
"Elephants?"
RC> Did you see Gary Glunz's post mentioning a girlfriend who said
RC> there is a Mormon planet somewhere "out there?" Any info? Does
RC> _it_ have elephants, too? :-)
Yes, there's a planet where black people came from, after being
judged by the Elohim as evil. It's in Doctrine and Covenants
somewhere.
---
Q: "But I am mortal. How can I prove it to you?"
Worf: "Die."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:41:52
--------
EID:ffb9 1c2c8520
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346ea0
with: Steve Bedard
SB> We can take a guess as to what most probably would happen given
SB> the circumstances and if something totally different happened
SB> and it was something that was prayed for, it would probably be
SB> an answer to prayer.
RC> So anything you think is improbable, and that you happen to
RC> "pray for," that happens is thus an "answer to prayer?" How
RC> is this any different from coincidence? That was my original
RC> question, if you recall. You seem to be going nowhere so far.
*Snort!* The odds of getting "19" in roulette is 37-to-1 against
(38-to-1 American wheel). If one prays for "19" and it comes up,
god must have done it. *Laugh!*
>SB> As for Gods name, He has many.
RC> Why - does he write bad checks?
You're in excellent form this day.
>SB> Do you have a problem with Christians calling Him by His title?
RC> Not at all; I think it adds to the carnival atmosphere of that
RC> family of religious sects. "Grand Poobah!" Your god's secret
RC> identity!
Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan also fits.
---
Picard: "Change it to kill."
[Data changes it and fires. the Borg falls down. Then another
Borg comes in and takes some pieces off and beams away. The
dead Borg vanishes.]
LaForge: "Hey, that other guy stole his wallet."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:42:24
--------
EID:eb3d 1c2c8540
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346ec0
>DR> This week a 19-year-old fuckless asshole only got 6 years in
>DR> prison for trying to beat an old man to death with his feet,
SQ> If that old man were one of my loved ones, I would find myself
SQ> in a position where I would happily remove both of his feet with
SQ> an axe upon his release from prison.
The victim forgave his attackers. As if his attackers gave a shit.
SQ> It just amazes me that these hatecrimes still occur here in the
SQ> 20th century, and to people who "look" homosexual (Whatever the
SQ> fuck THAT is).
I dunno what "looking homosexual" is either. These violent people
wish to beat up ANYONE, and pick "homosexuality" as a convieniant
excuse.
>DR> Only six years?!?!?!?!?!? A bullet seems more appropreate.
SQ> I tend to treat the death penalty with mixed feelings, but this
SQ> is a case where this guy should be put down, and slowly.
I am against the "death 'penalty'" as well, though this individual
makes a good case FOR such as "penalty." I'd like to see him remanded
over to ACTUP, no questions asked, and see if he still enjoys beating
homosexuals.
>DR> "Gay bashing" is still a popular highschool pasttime. Hundreds
>DR> of citizens were outraged enough to start patroling the streets
>DR> themselves, much to the consternation of the police.
SQ> The police better wake the fuck up then. So had our lawmakers.
SQ> If Joe Savelli (just as an example) starts hunting gays in the
SQ> neighborhood where I live, he might get a little more than what
SQ> he bargained ("Hey, Suzy, where's the snowplow? I've got a job
SQ> to do."). How insane.
Joe Savelli demonstrates a great deal of violent rage and hate in
general, with his bible is an excuse to justify his violent rages
to himself. If it wasn't homosexuals and "liberals," , it would be
black people, Mexicans, unmarried women. . . any group that is
available. If no group were available, he'd invent one in his tiny
little hatefilled mind.
I just sent $xxx.xx to Camp Sister Spirit in Mississippi because
they need to buy bullets and shotgun shells to fight off the Klan.
I read about them in _Workers_World_News_ on C. Baker's BBS. Some
women purchased a 120-acre farm there. Then they opened a shelter
for battered and abused women, started a clothing distribution
center, and opened a telephone crisis hotline--- all that while still
working the farm.
The local bigots and Klan members drive by their farm and shoot
at it. They also left a dead puppy on their fencepost. They have
also held town meetings to discuss the "lesbian problem," and are
looking for ways to legally force the women off of their farm.
What a nice buch of folks--- Camp Sister Spirit showed concern and
compassion for women, and the Klan puts on their sheets and visits.
Good grief!
While I am very much a pacifist, I believe in returning violence
and the threat of violence with deadly force. All creatures have
that right.
---
Picard: "So, what is your name and position?"
Worf: "My name is Worf and I'm leaning against the railing, facing
forward."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:43:00
--------
EID:91a2 1c2c8560
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346ee4
>DR> I heard that all sexual desire vanishes in a man once
>DR> he marries. Wonder if it's true.
SQ> In your wildest dreams, you hateful heathen. :)
In a few months we'll be calling you Al Bundy.
---
Worf: "That sounds stupid!"
Q: "Then you should excel in this game."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: "Missing day"
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:43:10
--------
EID:cdfc 1c2c8560
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346eee
with: Robert Curry
RC> Did you see Gary Glunz's post mentioning a girlfriend who said
RC> there is a Mormon planet somewhere "out there?" Any info? Does
RC> _it_ have elephants, too? :-)
SQ> I'll see what the wife has to say about this one. :)
I heard it's in Doctrine and Covenants. It's where the evil race
(i.e. black people) came from. No, really.
---
Worf: "Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth?!"
McCoy: "No, I'm gonna lie to you."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:43:24
--------
EID:b0fa 1c2c8560
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d346efc
TAW> My own personal experience is that women are evil,
TAW> compassionless, selfish little bitches who move from
TAW> one fuck to the next.
Sounds like my idealized woman, truth be known.
---
Kirk: "What makes you say that?"
Picard: "My larynx, the trachea, the usual stuff."
Kirk: "I mean....why do you ask?"
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Suzy Quarrella
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Morality
Date: 12 Jan 94 17:20:30
--------
EID:eb92 1c2c8a80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d3477ae
REPLY: 1:350/401 86252AD8
DC> into one of the groups. From what you are saying, it
DC> seems as if the polygamy, though offially banned by the
DC> Mormon hierarchy, is at least tolerated. Or, are they
DC> splinter groups that do not abide by the main stream edicts?
They are splinter groups. The Mormon church excommunicates members that
practi
ce polygamy. There are so many differences in each group that I honestly
don't
know what each group abides by and how closely they follow the teachings
of t
he Mormon church. I think it would be safe to say that some groups try to
foll
ow Mormon "laws" as closely as possible while other groups teach things
that a
re completely contrary to Mormon philosophy.
Suzy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Suzy Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Old Message
Date: 12 Jan 94 17:31:50
--------
EID:6031 1c2c8be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d347a56
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2b8521
I was going to reply to the reply you made to me quite some time ago but
that
message has since been deleted from Steve's BBS. I didn't expect the message
t
o go away so soon.
I wanted to thank you for replying to me. I will agree with you that I do
thin
k you get quite a bit of flack on Holysmoke. I don't have time to follow
a lot
of the conversations so I don't know if all of the "abuse" you get is deserve
d.
As far as religion goes, it's very difficult to really prove something that
is
a spiritual feeling. When you make claims that can't be proven, you are
going
to get attacked on this conference, but you already know that.
Matters of spirituality are very complicated because there's often no way
to p
rove what one believes. I think it's a personal feeling. What I find unfortuna
te is when certain individuals let all common sense and a sense of decency
tow
ards other human beings go out the window just because a religious official
to
ld them to do a certain thing (Waco comes to mind). I have my own personal
bel
ief that we should be tolerant of others. Everyone is different. I don't
under
stand why some people choose the lifestyles that they do but as long as
they d
on't hurt others then what right do I have to fault them?
I grew up with a boy that my siblings now say is gay. I have never asked
him a
bout it nor does it really matter to me. He's the same person whether or
not h
e's gay or straight. Why should my opinion of him change?
This discussion is not meant to be an attack on you, Jesse. I just wanted
to m
ake my own little spiel for tolerance and for loving others. When I first
met
Steve I didn't know what his religious affiliation was. I found him to be
a go
od person with many good qualities. I've known him to help out with the
boy sc
outs and to give money to the homeless. Whether or not he is Christian or
I am
Christian doesn't mean that we are "empty" inside. I have known people who
ar
e "empty", and Steve isn't one of them.
I once dated a guy who was a Christian. Jesus Christ was very important
to him
. This guy said a lot of sweet things to me and for a time I thought he
was ju
st the nicest person. Towards the end of our relationship, I realized just
how
horrible he had treated me and how condescending he had been to me. He lied
t
o me about many things and he put my health at risk for his own selfish
needs.
Now is this something that Jesus would approve of? This guy (I won't say
man
because he acted like a spoiled little boy), is one of the most shallow
and "e
mpty" people I've ever known. In comparing this guy to Steve, I see a big
diff
erence. Steve may not be a Christian, but he acts much more Christian than
the
guy I dated did. He treats me with respect, he never pressured me into doing
anything I didn't want to do when we were dating, and he was always honest
abo
ut his feelings.
Now you're going to say that the guy I dated is not a true example of all
Chri
stians and I would tend to agree. I'm not going to think all Christians
are ho
rrible people just because of him. But I also don't think it's fair of you
to
think that a person is empty and can't be joyful just because they aren't
a Ch
ristian.
Suzy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Who does what
Date: 11 Jan 94 19:44:00
--------
EID:1087 0475d110
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d33dfbd
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JC> year. I would not consider lecturing on legal matters to be service
JC> so much as it is marketing. I did take part in a group presentation
MB> Not necessarily true. It was from listening to a lecture that was
MB> sponsored by ARC (the Association for Retarded Citizens) that I was
MB> able to plan my own estate and write my own will. . . .
MB> While the amount of pro bono work you do is laudable, I am bothered
MB> by the fact that you don't think educating others to be more
MB> self-sufficient in legal matters is a worthwhile endeavor . . .
The question of lecturing was raised by Marty, and frankly I assumed that
he was talking about educating other scientists, and that the question had
to
do with lecturing to teach other lawyers, which is a public service of sorts,
but really is a marketing tool. I think educating law people to be more
self-
sufficient in legal matters is worthwhile. I'm just more interested in
things
other than the law.
MB> . . . and also
MB> by the fact that all the pro bono work you do seems to be
MB> church-connected. There are a great many people in this world that
MB> will not go to a church-related organization when they need help. In
MB> a sense your focus shows you to be rather parochial, and much too
MB> inclined to "preach to the choir." I would have thought Matthew 5:16
MB> would have influenced you to broaden your horizons a bit when
MB> donating your time and expertise.
I am bothered, Marilyn, that you would make such a criticism, and frankly
it seems you are intent on finding fault with me. The Agency I spoke of,
the
Christian Community Service Agency, provides a broad range of services to
the
community and to needy people, with _no_ evangelizing. I do not doubt that
there are people who may be reluctant to go to a church-based group, and
I hop
e
those people get served as well. There are more people in need of help
than I
can help, and more people seeking CCSA's help than it can serve. I feel
quite
comfortable, thank you, that I am not neglecting anyone by doing the work
I do
through CCSA.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Scott Charles
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: REPOSE
Date: 11 Jan 94 18:52:28
--------
EID:810c 1c2b9680
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 33229 (FIDONEWS SUBMISSION)
> you are correct that your cynicism is showing. in any event the
> [ etc. ]
>Yawn.
I am sorry to have disturbed you while you were at rest. when you are awake
and refreshed, do drop me a line; i am sure i would enjoy hearing from you.
yours truly
scott charles.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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--------
From: Scott Charles
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: ALF
Date: 11 Jan 94 19:04:44
--------
EID:2f71 1c2b9880
i was wonder if you could help me out with a question i had: what are the
pos
sibilities of intelligent life on other planets? i would like your opinion.
also, is it possible that homo sapiens are not the most highly evolved form
of
life? let me know what you think. thank you in advance for your attention
t
o my question.
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: 24th Street Exchange - A BBS Since 1983 * (916) 448-2483 (1:203/52)
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--------
From: Scott Charles
To: Starwyn
Sub: HOMOSEXUALITY
Date: 11 Jan 94 19:24:53
--------
EID:b083 1c2b9b00
SB>God does love homosexuals and they definitely deserve to hear
SB>God's word. Although the Gospels do not mention it, I suspect that Jesus
SB>spent time with some homosexuals just as He did with other outcasts of
SB>society. Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone, including homosexuals.
>You are one in a million that believe this then. I'm currently arguing
with a
>fundy on Cult_Info about this very issue.
make that two out a million.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 12 Jan 94 06:07:33
--------
EID:0910 1c2c30e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d33dae4
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d308f96
A pregnant pause ensued as Joe Schultz shared a conception -- Real unconvincin
g evidenc -- with Don Martin on 09 Jan 94 17:57:
> ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
> JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
> DM> Evidence?
JS> Elementary, my dear Donson; you responded to me. You, yourself,
JS> evidently thought I was smarter than gravity -- or do you have
JS> irrefutable evidence that you also responded to Mr. Gravity. In
JS> which case, show me your evidence.
I respond to gravity daily by keeping my feet on the ground; apparently,
you suppose yourself to do otherwise. I responded to you in words as I
saw yo
u using some, but I now see that one must not confuse that activity with
any a
bility to think.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Flaming fundies
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:37:59
--------
EID:92f7 1c2c3ca0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d33f048
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 02932c75
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Flaming fundies
-- with David Rice on 05 Jan 94 20:55:
>JCJ> For the most part, atheists simply do
>JCJ> not do good and ethical things.
>dr> I purchase and distribute blankets to
>dr> the shelterless here in Santa Ana.
FR> And I have passed money to people begging in the freeway traffic
FR> claiming that they'll work for food. I have bought canned food
FR> and left them in boxes to be found in Pacoima.
FR> This ****-fucker's claim that atheists do no good or ethical
FR> things is one of the most disgusting religious belief he has yet
FR> vomited out of his mouth.
The atheist's problem is that he is not organized into churches (covens
o
r whatever). The good that he does is often known to himself alone (an
old Ch
ristian ideal, but never mind). Churches, on the other hand, are in the
Publi
c Relations business and take very good care to trumpet their good deeds
far a
nd wide (contrary, to be sure, to that same Christian principle mentioned
abov
e, but what the hell--they are the godly ones and get to bend the rules).
Jes
se is a victim of believing his own PR.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 07:47:59
--------
EID:0ea2 1c2c3de0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d33f48b
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306caa
A pregnant pause ensued as Dave Keeton shared a conception -- Proof -- with
Da
vid Worrell on 09 Jan 94 10:44:
DK> design in their arguments, I guess you haven't heard of The
DK> Institute for Creation Research.
I would imagine that everone here has heard of that nest of loons.
DK> There has been a debate
DK> for many years over the facts of Science SUPPORTING creation.
How does this statement follow from the one that precedes it? Are you tr
ying to say that the ICR has been contesting scientific fact for years?
Then
say so. Are you trying to say that the ICR routinely quotes scientists
out of
context to put words in their (the scientists') mouths contrary to their
own
observations and beliefs. Then say so; it is no more than the truth. Are
you
trying to say that the ICR quotes its own "scientists" (like poor old Fred
Ho
yle) making pronouncements outside their field of expertise as if such were
ex
perts in those fields whose words were worth anything more than those of
the m
an on the street? Then say so; it is no more than the truth. Are you trying
to say that the ICR presents no real scientific evidence of its own, but
routi
nely buys into hoaxes of others, as in the case of the Paluxey man tracks,
as
if such were "science"? Then say so; it is no more than the truth.
You need to get a little less vague here.
DK> And as the debate rolls on, more and more credible scientists
DK> are standing up and being counted in the ranks of Creationists.
Name three. Show how they are "credible". (Note, having a degree in ele
ctronic engineering does not make one a "credible scientist." Publishing
in a
recognized, peer-reviewed journal does.)
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:07:48
--------
EID:c971 1c2c40e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d33f6ac
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 f8c07d15
A pregnant pause ensued as Robert Curry shared a conception -- Guess who's
com
ing to din -- with Steve Quarrella on 10 Jan 94 08:30:
> JCJ> I even acknowledge that there are atheists who are "good people."
RC> Like a Ku Klux Klan fanatic acknowledges that there are blacks who
RC> are good people, sure he does.
Why sho! A Good Black is one who knows his place and acknowledges the mo
ral superiority of the KKK. The role of the Klan is not to kill blacks
(excep
t when necessary, of course); rather it is to make Good Blacks of them.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Working for God's Bigots
Date: 12 Jan 94 08:16:11
--------
EID:9af2 1c2c4200
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d33f889
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 06a9cb16
A pregnant pause ensued as Robert Curry shared a conception -- Working for
God
's Bigots -- with Jesse C. Jones on 10 Jan 94 08:53:
RC> Delightful! But I wonder how you derive sociological data from this
RC> chatter? Upon what evidence (personal prejudice doesn't count) do you
RC> base your above claim that theists "are more inclined to doing good
RC> works than are atheists." How do you claim to know such a thing?
The same way he "knows" that atheists are empty inside--personal omniscie
nce.
---
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Scholastic Aptitude Test
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:57:24
--------
EID:21a2 1c2c5720
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, David!
11 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad All:
DR> BSAT -- The Biblical Scholastic Aptitude Test.
ROFL!
... "La Quinta" is Spanish for "Next to Denny's".
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Something other than "Taboo Drinks"
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:00:48
--------
EID:5b2c 1c2c5800
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Patrick!
10 Jan 94, dixit Patrick Humphrey ad Steve Quarrella
PH> ...and that we can get Shiner Bock down here, but he has to
PH> drive at least to Houston (if not all the way to Shiner).
Pure water. :)
PH> ... Planet Houston, where our Dome doesn't have a hole in the
PH> roof.
Hey, it's the Cowboys...what do you expect? :)
... Endless love: Tennis between Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 120 Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:03:14
--------
EID:5d0a 1c2c5860
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
11 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad David Rice:
MG> Iced Tea. I had to drive 30 miles home, while Esteban and his
MG> bride were a mere jump aorund the corner.
Next time, we'll meet in Plano or Richardson. :) [Razzoo's would work...]
MG> I might add that he had a Rusty Nail.
You know how I am about Drambuie. :)
MG> Remember Rusty naylor.
It amazed me that nobody caught the pun for a while.
MG> year or so. BTW, we're thinking about setting up a HS rogues
MG> gallery with the names of the deceased.
We need to do that....
... Life MUST be a highway...I feel like roadkill.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Alan Hess
Sub: mythology
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:04:30
--------
EID:1b61 1c2c5880
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Alan!
11 Jan 94, dixit Alan Hess ad all:
AH> Why are there so many people in this world who so believe their
AH> particular mythology is better than everyone else's that they
AH> have to push their beliefs on folks who aren't interested? If
AH> one is happy with one's religious mythology, fine - enjoy it.
AH> But leave others alone.
Unfortunately, they do not view their mythology as such; rather, they view
it
as "truth", that must be inflicted upon others at whatever cost because
it's
for the victim's "own good". And this is what gets them in trouble.
... If Ronald Reagan was an act, George Bush was PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 12 Jan 94 19:47:30
--------
EID:eb7a 1c2c9de0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d345414
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d327965
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Salue, Tyler!
Martis dies January 11 1994, Dixit Tyler A. Wunder ad Jesse C. Jones:
JCJ>>> The evidence is all around you, Steve.
TAW> Well, I fit your list fairly well, Jesse. Now what? Still no
god.
Instead, we get raving fits of denial from him that we need his deities.
Why
is it so difficult for this one human being to comprehend that very simple
fac
t?
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 12 Jan 94 19:48:48
--------
EID:a97c 1c2c9e00
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d345493
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d32978e
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Martis dies January 11 1994, Dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Joshua Lee:
JCJ> And to call me a bigot and to say nothing about the hateful attacks
JCJ> on me here every day on account of my religious faith is, I submit,
JCJ> the paradigm of hypocrisy.
More martyr complex, Jesse, and once again you get called on it: The "hateful
attacks", as you call them, are aimed at the idiotic attempts by yourself
to i
nclude the disinterested in your fantasies. Perhaps if you didn't paint
non-C
hristians with the same broad brush, you wouldn't get hit as hard (and you
might earn some respect). I see you had a blast hitting the key
on my
so-called "hateful" posts...is being blunt synonymous with "hateful"?
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 12 Jan 94 19:52:10
--------
EID:7503 1c2c9e80
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d345718
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d346ec0
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Salue, David!
Mercurii dies January 12 1994, Dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> If that old man were one of my loved ones, I would find myself
SQ>> in a position where I would happily remove both of his feet with
SQ>> an axe upon his release from prison.
DR> The victim forgave his attackers.
Why?
DR> As if his attackers gave a shit.
They probably didn't, if the wanton acts they committed gives me any example
about how much they care about human life? Geez, if this guy had tried
to kil
l their families or something, I could understand, but all he did was "look
ga
y". That's beyond my comprehension.
DR> I dunno what "looking homosexual" is either.
I had a Spanish professor who was from Santander (in Spain), and he once
told
me how so many people would say to him "Funny, you don't LOOK Spanish",
and ho
w he'd always reply "Oh? What does someone who is Spanish look like?" [He
did
n't look Hispanic, if that's a qualifier. Surprise.]
DR> These violent people
DR> wish to beat up ANYONE, and pick "homosexuality" as a convieniant
DR> excuse.
To quote our colleague Jesse Jones, who quotes HIS master, "He who lives
by th
e
sword shall perish by the sword." I don't think that people like this quite
u
nderstand that there are vengeful motherfuckers out there who would not
stop u
ntil such an action received redress (Sorry, but "six years" doesn't quite
cut
it in my book.). Someone might someday (for example) decide that it is
cool
to go out and castrate gay bashers....
SQ>> I tend to treat the death penalty with mixed feelings, but this
SQ>> is a case where this guy should be put down, and slowly.
DR> I am against the "death 'penalty'" as well, though this individual
DR> makes a good case FOR such as "penalty."
I would be willing to be that we share similar feelings about "against",
but i
t looks like we're spot-on about "for".
DR> I'd like to see him remanded
DR> over to ACTUP, no questions asked, and see if he still enjoys beating
DR> homosexuals.
I like the idea of leaving him alone in a room for one hour with the guy's
family, strapped to a chair. Then bring in a toolbox...
DR> Joe Savelli demonstrates a great deal of violent rage and hate in
DR> general, with his bible is an excuse to justify his violent rages
DR> to himself.
And, like the gay bashers, I don't think he quite understands that there
are p
eople who, when motivated, can play his game as well as he does. He might
fin
d himself torn and bleeding someday after poking his nose where it doesn't
bel
ong (Does this asshole really believe that "non-believers" are going to
sit st
ill for his shit?).
DR> If it wasn't homosexuals and "liberals," , it would be
DR> black people, Mexicans, unmarried women. . .
How about "all of the above"?
DR> I just sent $xxx.xx to Camp Sister Spirit in Mississippi because
DR> they need to buy bullets and shotgun shells to fight off the Klan.
I just read about them in another echo...A_THEIST? Good grief, and Jesse
Jone
s
tells ME to get into the 20th century? I think he should turn his attentions
toward his fellow club members before bothering with "heathens".
DR> at it. They also left a dead puppy on their fencepost. They have
DR> also held town meetings to discuss the "lesbian problem," and are
DR> looking for ways to legally force the women off of their farm.
There was mention in the article I read that Rush Limbaugh had
had
something to say about this. Semi-rhetorically, I wonder what he said.
DR> What a nice buch of folks-+- Camp Sister Spirit showed concern and
DR> compassion for women, and the Klan puts on their sheets and visits.
Because, like the women, the Klan members are wearing dresses underneath.
DR> While I am very much a pacifist, I believe in returning violence
DR> and the threat of violence with deadly force. All creatures have
DR> that right.
I believe in giving people what they ask for, and only an asshole like Joe
Sav
elli believes that I'm going to let him and his pals walk all over me and
mine
.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 12 Jan 94 20:01:28
--------
EID:64b5 1c2ca020
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d345734
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d346ee4
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Salue, David!
Mercurii dies January 12 1994, Dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
>>DR> I heard that all sexual desire vanishes in a man once
>>DR> he marries. Wonder if it's true.
SQ>> In your wildest dreams, you hateful heathen. :)
DR> In a few months we'll be calling you Al Bundy.
Suzy was calling me that BEFORE the wedding. :)
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Suzy Quarrella
Sub: Old Message
Date: 12 Jan 94 20:03:08
--------
EID:142e 1c2ca060
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d3457bd
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d347a56
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Salue, Suzy!
Mercurii dies January 12 1994, Dixit Suzy Quarrella ad Jesse C. Jones:
SQ> Steve may not be a Christian, but he acts much more Christian than the
SQ> guy I dated did.
Hey, I see no reason to insult me! Geez! :)
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Something other than "Taboo Drinks"
Date: 12 Jan 94 20:04:30
--------
EID:b424 1c2ca080
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d345815
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
Salue, Marty!
Lunae dies January 10 1994, Dixit Marty Leipzig ad Steve Quarrella:
MG>> Well, you missed a gret dinner tonight. You didn't show up, so
MG>> we went without you.
SQ>> Yeah, you hoser!
ML> So. What's your point?
Meaning that YOUR pointed head should have been there for the amusement.
Mayb
e
we could have gotten arrested for praying or something.
ML> I'll be venturing to the land of the Terrible Stench, ack, um,
ML> er, Dallas in a couple of weeks.
That's "Ft. Worth". Or are you headed for Detroit?
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Don Martin
Sub: Good?
Date: 09 Jan 94 07:45:00
--------
EID:de48 1c293da0
DM> -- with Steve Bedard on 04 Jan 94 08:20:
DW> Let me get this straight. If I, as a non-christian, save your life
DW> tomorrow, then I have performed an evil act in the eyes of God????
DM> Think about it. Would YOU want this guy acting as YOUR
DM> self-appointed spokesman?
Better him than that Savelli moron ...
... Diogenes is still searching.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Len Ovens
Sub: evidence
Date: 09 Jan 94 07:56:00
--------
EID:bf90 1c293f00
LO> And you call my answers bad, Show (or perhaps shut up ) that God
LO> is in my imagination and is not the creator. I've heard terms thrown
You morons never learn, do you? _You_ must convince _us_. There is no
evidence that God doesn't exist, just as there is no evidence that he
does exist. In order to "prove" God's non-existence, one would have to
be able to look _everywhere_ for him. All you have to do is come up
with one little piece of reasonable evidence that He exists. Can you?
I thought not. Now why don't you go out and play with the other
children and stop bugging your betters?
... Go Away My Child. . .Do Thou Frolic Where Fast Cars Dost Move!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Len Ovens
Sub: help for Jesse?
Date: 09 Jan 94 07:58:00
--------
EID:5a63 1c293f40
LO> why are
LO> you and many others so interested in speeping God and His proof under
WHAT PROOF?!?!?!?!
... Sorry about your RectoCranial Inversion.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible
Date: 10 Jan 94 07:23:00
--------
EID:0e6e 1c2a3ae0
SB> thought someone here might find it interesting. It is interesting
SB> that you consider the Bible a historical document, yet some here claim
SB> that historical evidence for Jesus is lacking.
I think most people here would agree that someone named Jesus lived
during the period in question. The historical evidence that we find
lacking deals with his being the Son of God.
... Jesus Saves...Passes to Moses...Moses shoots...HE SCORES!!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Dss
Date: 10 Jan 94 07:26:00
--------
EID:17fc 1c2a3b40
DC> Ok, it's dammed... What do you want me to do next? :
Oh, hell, I don't know. Crucify Jesse, maybe?
DC> The Book of Esther does not have a single reference in it to
DC> god. Makes it rather unique. That, at least, IMHO, is one
DC> of the reasons it is not among the DDS.
That's interesting. I guess I'll have to dig out my copy of the Bible
and read Esther...
... Got a dog for my girlfriend. Was a fair trade.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: HMS Noah
Date: 10 Jan 94 07:30:00
--------
EID:aa3c 1c2a3bc0
DC> If they didn' have ice, how did they make their martinis during
DC> their cruise?
Noah and his family weren't technologically advanced enough to have
discovered the martini. They got blitzed on cheap wine instead. That's
the reason the ark ended up on a mountain. Noah had such a terrible
hangover he couldn't see straight.
... Don't play "stupid" with me... I'm better at it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: More Hell Fire
Date: 10 Jan 94 08:05:00
--------
EID:e437 1c2a40a0
RC> RC> Do you believe that Hell is _completely_ voluntary?
RC> SB> Yes.
SB> It is voluntary in the way that each person has a say where they go.
SB> The only reason people do go there is that they refuse to accept God's
SB> invitation to Heaven.
I've got a hypothetical situation for you. First, I'd like to make two
assumptions:
1. You don't have a deathwish.
2. I would actually perform the act described below.
Imagine you're walking along a dark alleyway and I come up to you with a
gun and say something along the lines of "give me all your money or I'll
blow your head off." You give me all your money and I walk off. Was
your choice completely voluntary?
... Flat Mars Society.
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 10 Jan 94 09:03:00
--------
EID:3c20 1c2a4860
SB> I am not so sure that the flood story has been disproven. Would that
SB> not be like proving a negative which according to the people here is
SB> impossible. There may be evidence against it, but it has not been
SB> proven
SB> wrong.
It would be wrong to say that there has never been a "great flood"
anywhere at any time. However, we are justified in saying that the
flood described in the Bible never took place on Earth. An event of this
magnitude would leave behind certain signs, and these signs are not
apparent.
SB> ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
Does he own a spell-checker?
... I'd post a Pro-Life saying, but there's no ANSI swastika.
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Atheists do good
Date: 10 Jan 94 08:59:00
--------
EID:26a7 1c2a4760
MB> Let me see if I've got this straight. If you pass out blankets in the
MB> wintertime, it will encourage people to move out of their warm
MB> apartments and houses and into the streets, just so they can get a
MB> free blanket.
The sad thing is that this kind of stupidity no longer surprises me...
... We all live in a yellow subroutine...
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From: David Worrell
To: All
Sub: Predictions
Date: 10 Jan 94 13:28:00
--------
EID:0e47 1c2a6b80
I was watching Pat Robertson's new show (_Raising Up A Standard_) today.
Pat predicts that if the people of America don't all become Christians,
the country will disintegrate by 2000, if not sooner. So if there's
anything any of you have always wanted to do, now's the time.
Personally, I've always wanted to try opium. Maybe about 1998 I'll try
some ...
... Anyone who can't get himself out of jury duty is not one of my peers.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Paul Boyer
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:20:23
--------
EID:f8fa 1c2caa80
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22979c
REPLY: 1:2607/112 862554C6
PB> The AIDS epidemic is unlike cancer or heart disease in that it's
PB> the result of a communicable virus. Cancer is not
PB> communicable. AIDS has the potential to be a far greater
PB> threat to mankind than cancer or heart disease *ever* will
PB> be.
While your point is valid and true, there are some virally induced carcinomas
such as the papilloma vruses.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: Hey
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:24:19
--------
EID:1a58 1c2cab00
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22a053
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2fccec
MG>> I got you beat. I saw the original tonight. She's much
MG>> better looking than you.
JM> I wouldn't doubt that one bit! B-}) How was dinner?
I think that the company was better thatn the food.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: STILL SEEING CREATIONIST?
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:35:17
--------
EID:b2fc 1c2cac60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22c6b0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 02932c72
mg>> I don't think so. I think that the fundies sit down and
mg>> think this stuff up. Many have had a high school or college
mg>> level biology course and think they have an answer. they
mg>> don't know enough about the subject matter to discuss it.
FR> You're right about one important point: He knew the key words
FR> and the buzz phrases and yet never really knew what it was he
FR> was supposed to be opposed to. And yet he _was_ quoting from
FR> creationists tracts often enough and admitted to doing so.
The problem is that science does nbot offer the black and white situations
tha
t the fundy mind requires. things are not always one way or another except
th
at each time you mix glycerin and potassium permanganate it will stink and
smo
ke.
FR> I can't see someone just sitting down and thinking their stuff up
FR> like what we've seen. That there is no lack of imagination is
FR> certain; yet there is also a marked lack of imagination in the
FR> claims -- they all sound alike and make the same mistakes. Note
FR> the thermodynamic laws that are constantly misunderstood.
This istuff comes from guys like the ICR produces. It filters down to the
com
mon fundy who then thinks that if he reptypes it into the place here, that
we
will sit in stunned silcne and say "Gosh, why didn't I think of that? I
guess
I had better hand in my thinking cap and become a fundy."
FR> I've yet to see a rational opposistion to any evolutionary
FR> theory. I have seen people on PBS trying to claim that evolution
FR> doesn't happen yet I've yet to see a rational debate.
Some years ago, gish came out to the med school. He was almost catcalled
into
leaving the stage. We have three nobel laureates that are in a two minute
wa
lk from my lab. I even got to confer with one of them once. these guys
are m
erciless ion a debate like this. He aksed gish if the guys out at ICR ever
st
ood int he hallways trying to tear apart their own data like we did. He
repli
ed somethihng to the effect that the truth is obvious when it is told.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Don't be a moron, Al
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:41:30
--------
EID:1434 1c2cad20
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22c974
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 02932c73
FR> That damn hard disk drive virus that looks for occult claims with
FR> a dead-line attached to them must have made itself manifest yet
FR> once again. The poor claimant (Goat rest his computers soul)
FR> seems to have been driven mysteriously silent.
He's around in other echoes. Marty L. and I discussed him over luncht he
othe
r day. He had just written the same message to about tne of us and then
vanis
hed. but he's around. the name keeps appearing in other echoes.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Re: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:44:25
--------
EID:3ba7 1c2cad80
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22db7c
REPLY: 1:3406/27.0 2d306cab
DK> Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?! What a
DK> Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope of
DK> billion years because the chance of random shuffling of
DK> (the building blocks of life) producing a workable set of
DK> would be less then 10 to the -40,000 (this is a conservative
DK> Science does have a limit in the Laws of Probability, at
DK> something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE. Anything less than
DK> to the -50 is considered absurd. Even if you ran your
DK> combinations in the 20 BILLION years, you wouldn't have the
DK> to come up with the right combination.
First things first....we are not looking for a lost wallet here. In other
wor
ds, we do not have to search through every combination to get the right
one.
It's not int he last place we look.....understand?
Second. You wnat to design an enzyme that breaks certain starch bonds down
to
glucose molecules. Say it is...for average about 50 amino acids. that's
a ,
molecular weight of about 55k. Now if you look at 15 of the twenty common
ami
no acids, do they all have to be exact? No. Can you trade in a valine
for an
isoleucine or for an alanine or even a glycine. Very often. so if you
can t
ake over 75% of the molecules and make semi conservative changes, how much
doe
s tah reduce the number of combos for you to get something that works.
You fi
gure it out. Now look at the DNA. does each codon have to be exact? No.
Yo
u can have two or three different ones for each amino acid. this reduces
your
chances for mismatch by more orders of magnitude. Are you getting hte pictur
e here?
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: True colors
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:52:18
--------
EID:bc5e 1c2cae80
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22e3e1
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bd2c
CE> Out of 12, only 2 could draw a simple 4 flag interrupting
CE> interlock with latched active outputs. I don't expect someone off
CE> the street to be able to do it, but fer Christ's Sakes, 4 year
CE> grads who can't do ladder logic?
When we interview techs, one of the questions we aks is "How do you make
a 1.0
molar sodium chloride solution."
It is a bit of a trick question that a lot of chemsits might even get wrong,
b
ut if they answer with even the best guess wrong answer, they are ahead
of the
pack by a mile.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: cards
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:54:11
--------
EID:3cfb 1c2caec0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22e587
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d30c262
S>> Somehow I thought you'd enjoy that...BTW: heard from Mikey
S>> lately?
MG>> Not a whole bunch. Is he dead again?
CE> What do you call this? Gevelte' fish?
Fish balls.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Re: Hey
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:54:30
--------
EID:872d 1c2caec0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22e7dc
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d30c2c6
MG>> I got you beat. I saw the original tonight. She's
MG>> much better looking than you.
CE> If your wife finds them, she'll give you the "Bobbitt
CE> Treatment". Multiple nekkid wimmins pix seeems to kickstart their
CE> motors with ether fumes on the side.
My wife was THERE. After eating a copius load of fried catfish, Steve and
i b
ored our wives to tears by discussing most of the residents of this echo.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: cards
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:57:24
--------
EID:3cfb 1c2caf20
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22ee3a
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d31409e
MG>> Too bad you can't see the originals like I can. And
MG>> don't talk about that clown Mikey in here. I can't
MG>> stand the guy.
CE> You are just jealous of him because he is a Pentacostal
CE> Pimp....errrr preacher.
Nor am I jealous of him because he lives in Houston.
CE> The dude is a most radical surfer.
Erp....
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Mike Staab
Sub: ?
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:58:16
--------
EID:d78d 1c2caf40
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22efb3
MS> Hello, I'm new to this echo and would be interested in discussing
MS> anything related to religion. I'm a Christian and am letting you
MS> know this up front. I don't like to play games, but do enjoy
MS> sound reasoning. Anyone interested?
Yeah....believe in god? Can you offer some evidence of any deity's existance?
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Some Christian Churches
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:59:57
--------
EID:af2c 1c2caf60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a22f371
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d32cc08
DR> Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, NC
DR> Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christians, Idaho
DR> Church of the Creator, NC
DR> Church of Israel, Missouri
DR> Church of Jesus Christ, Arkansas
DR> LaPorte Church of Christ, Colorado
DR> The Mountain Church, Michigan
DR> New Christian Crusade Church, La.
DR> Sword of Christ and Good News Ministry, Arkansas
DR> Christian Patriots Defense League, Ill.
Hmmmm....they all have "C"'s in them?
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:07:55
--------
EID:3877 1c2cb0e0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3a2306fb
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d32978e
JCJ> Please, Joshua, don't turn your back on our common
JCJ> tradition, which teaches that those who deny God will face
JCJ> God's judgment.
Joshua, like myself, was born jewish and gave it up. Can you tell me what
the
OT view ofthe afterlife is?
This is a trick question.
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Starwyn
Sub: cards
Date: 12 Jan 94 18:08:52
--------
EID:5958 1c2c9100
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d348304
CE>CE> Never fear, dear. Mikey is everywhere.
CE> S> You ain't *here* sweetie...
CE> What are you pointing at?
S> Its not polite to point...
Well, it is impossible to not do....sometimes.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:20:04
--------
EID:7674 1c2c5280
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa88
> Rick, why don't you approach your logic professors and tell
>them that you've discovered a third position between a and
>not/non-a? I'm sure they'll be impressed.
Actually, the professor at Brock University that teaches Logic (sentential,
pr
edicate and modal logic) also teaches the Buddhist Four Cornered Logic,
which
does not hold to Aristotle's Law of Excluded Middle or Law of Non-contradictio
n. In the former we hold to the Boolean logic forms, which were intorduced
by
Bertrand Russel and Alfred North Whitehead. i.e. Modus Ponens, Modus Tollens,
Hypothetical Syllogism, Disjunctive syllogism, Constructive Delema, Conjunctio
n, Simplification, and Addition, along with their Equivalence forms (Double
Ne
gation, Demorgan's Theorem, Commutation, Association, Distribution, Contraposi
tion, Implication, Exportation, Tautology and Equivalence), and Conditional
an
d indirect proofs. In the latter, we concentrate on the Four Cornered Logic
of
Nagarjuna which breaks down traditional metaphysical categories of existence/
non-existence which is presented in the Madyamika, Hwa Yen, and Three Treatise
schools of Buddhism. The former is taught in the traditional Logic course,
wh
ich is a required course for all undergrads, and the latter in an introduction
to Chinese Buddhism.
Take this to your professor who teaches logic, and you will find that there
is
nothing wrong with anything I have posted here about logic. It is a prejudice
of Western thought which does not recognize Eastern thought or dismisses
it a
s mere mystical bullshit. I believe that the Chinese approach to logic is
some
times better, simply because it does not even consider the question of the
exi
stence of God, which the West is pre-occupied with (i.e. Western physics,
biol
ogy, philosophy, and religion).
If you wish to read further on this, read Howard Kahane's book Logic and
Philo
sophy: A Modern Introduction and David Kaluphaha's Nagarjuna: The Philosophy
o
f the Middle Way.
> Agnosticism is a comfortable perch, but most illusions are.
For you, yeah, but that depends on how close minded you are. In your case,
I w
ould say very close minded.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Continued belief in the Necronomion hoax
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:23:05
--------
EID:7826 1c2c52e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa89
>Just amazing. Rather than admit that the claims of the existance
>of this book prior to the fictional account set forth by H. P.
>Lovecraft is simply nonsense, this guy invents conspiracy
>theories and secret cover-ups to explain the marked absense of
>the existance of this work -- a work, by the way, of which there
>was only allowed to be one copy -- the reading of which would
>turn the reader crazy.
I have attempted to F'req you a copy of the FAQ that I have, which would
allow
you to examine his arguments in full, however your system has been down
for t
he last few days. I will attempt to send you a copy today sometime.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Robert Curry
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:11:06
--------
EID:4b68 1c2c5960
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa8a
>You seem to dislike the term 'atheist.' Would you say you are a
>nontheist? I don't demand that you accept my terminology.
Yes you do demand that I accept your terminology, and place myself into
_your_ categories. I call myself an agnostic simply because I am not as
pre-occupied with the question of the existence of god as you are as an
atheist. I do not feel so insecure about my own position as to question
each
individual fundy that comes along who claims that he has evidence for the
existence of god. Rarely do I engage in conversations about evidence for
the
existence of god, or feel the need to even consider any of the proofs which
these fundies present, either here or elsewhere. Out of the hundred or so
postings which I have made here in this echo, about a dozen or so have
concentrated on that question. The majority of your postings on the other
hand indicate that you are pre-occupied with the question.
By continually asking for evidence, questioning evidence and proofs
(arguments) and engaging in the numerous conversations with fundies that
you
do, you are indicating that fundies are worthy of all that attention, and
are
literally paying homage to them. You end up discussing the same damn thing
over and over again, flogging a dead horse so to speak, and for what?? These
fundies don't change their appraoch to the problem, and the majority of
them
are making the same damn claims over and over again. Rarely, if ever, is
anything new presented here. After a while, it becomes nothing more than
a
"my penis is bigger than yours is" contest, which indicates that you are
insecure about the size of your penis for even considering the question
in
the first place.
I keep getting told, by people like Hector, that the existence of God (god
or
gods) is irrelevant, and if you really believed that, you would not even
bother with the question in the first place. The mere fact that you do
consider the existence of god as much as you do indicates that it is
perfectly relevant to you, moreoever it is of primary importance. Actions
speak louder than words, and your actions indicate that you are pre-occupied
with the existence of god, and feel that it is necessary to debunk every
little claim that is made, by every little fundy of this echo. This indicates
that you are insecure about your own beliefs, and that you must put down
every claim made by every fundy, for fear that if any claim is left
un-attended, it might be considered true or right.
Are these fundies really worthy of all this attention?? Who is controlling
who here? I am quite certain that if I came out and made a few fundamentalist
claims that you would feel it incumbent upon yourself to show them to be
wrong. Obviously then I would pose some kind of threat to your existence
as
an atheist, and I become worthy of all the attention which is paid to all
of
the fundies of this echo. The existence of fundies provides a sense of
meaning to your existence as an atheist, which you could not do without.
Now which is the more ridiculous position: the one which pays attention
to
every claim of every fundy that comes along, or the one which generally
ignores the question as a whole simply becuase such knowledge is currently
beyond our means.
That is the difference between my position and yours. I could care less
about
anything that any fundy says, and I do not consider it worthy of attention.
I
dismiss the question out of hand, simply because I understand that any such
knowledge transcends human knowledge, and the question itself is ridiculous
to start with.
<<<<< continued in the next message>>>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Robert Curry
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 12 Jan 94 12:44:07
--------
EID:4b68 1c2c6580
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa8b
>You seem to dislike the term 'atheist.' Would you say you are a
>nontheist? I don't demand that you accept my terminology.
Through-out most of my messages, I have attempted to bring in discussions
about other issues, such as Buddhism or the Occult, or I have attempted
to
raise various philosophical subjects and issues. Why? Because the regular
discussions around here are redundant and monotonous. You people keep
addressing the same damn issues over and over again. How many fucking times
do you have to explain to these morons that evolution is supported by plenty
of evidence, or that the Bible is full of contradictions?? Don't you people
get it? If they don't believe the explanation you are offering now, they
will
never get it! So why bother with them at all??
Each of you engages in a form of proselytizing, in which you are presenting
the tenents of what you believe to be true. Now I am quite certain that
you
are not about to be converted, and proclaim Jesus Christ as the Lord of
your
life, and I am also quite certain that they are not about to embrace atheism
and renounce what they believe here in this echo. And yet throughout the
year
that I have been carrying this echo, I have seen a rehash of the same damm
topics over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ad absrudum. These
topics include evolution, acheological evidence about the Bible,
contradictions in the bible, miracles, creationalism, the flood, and the
occaisional reference to neo-paganism (which have almost completely
disappeared).
When someone like me comes along and introduces a new topic for discussion,
I
am faced with cries of "go contemplate your navel" or "metaphysical
bullshit." Like lemmings on the run, you are contented to stick with the
status quo, and take umbrage at anyone who introduces anything scintillating
and new. It is either that, or they fall dead from the press, and no one
pays
any attention to them, beyond the occasional "thanks for the info".
So why don't I turn off the echo?? Well, one out of every two or three hundred
messages manages to discuss something interesting or humourous, which makes
it worth my while. It is also humourous to watch people bash their heads
against the same wall over and over again, which would include both the
fundies and the atheists. Concerning the former, I try to engage in as
many
of these conversations as possible, although the threads tend to disappear
amidst the idle banter almost as quickly as they are introduced. Concerning
the latter, I just keep hitting the "N" key, in the hopes that I will find
more of the former.
You're an intellegent guy, and I am sure that you can now understand why
I do
not classify myself under the category of atheist, and why I take up the
issues that I do around here. Atheists (as they are to be found around here)
live by the faith of fundies, and are continually pre-occupied with the
existence of god, evidence for the existence of god, and with engaging in
conversations with fundies about irrelevant matters. I, as an agnostic,
bracket out the whole question, and ignore it, simply because it transcends
human experience and knowledge. To be sure, I am applying Ockham's razor
properly. And that is the difference between an agnostic and an atheist.
>Thanks. Got an ISBN for the latter reference?
You can find it in either:
Chang, Garma C. C., "The Buddhist Teaching of Totality: The Philosophy of
Hwa
Yen" Pennsylvania State University Press: 1989 (ISBN Cloth 1-271-01142-4
or
Paper 1-271-01179-3) pages 101-110.
Kalupahana, David "The Philosophy of the Middle Way" SUNY Press: 1986 (ISBN
0-88706-149-4) Pages 269-270.
In the latter text, you will find a translation of the Kaccayanagota-sutra
on
page 10 and 11.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Atheists can't read...
Date: 12 Jan 94 13:35:08
--------
EID:f1a2 1c2c6c60
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa8c
> RV> It is very simple. I neither believe nor disbelieve in the
> RV> existence of any God.
>
>So were you in a drunken stupor when you posted that you
>disbelieved in the "God of the bible?"
Drunk or sober, it makes no difference, my position has been consistent
throug
hout all of my postings. Yes, I am an atheist concerning the God of the
Bible,
simply because there is no evidence to suggest that such a being interacts
wi
th humanity, or that such a being exists. However, in reference to the larger
question, which is concerning the existence of _any_ (read: all concepts
and n
otions of god in general, without reference to any specific deity) I am
an agn
ostic. This is consistent in that the God of the Bible is a specific deity,
wh
ich I do not believe in or worship. Hence, in reference to that specific
deity
, I have a _lack_ of belief in or disbelieve, and would qualify as an atheist.
However, the concept of a god, creator, or supreme being, is one that I
canno
t obviate, cannot prove, or cannot claim does not exist. Any such being
would
transcend human experience and knowledge, and I would not be able to _prove_
o
r _disprove_ it.
The argument is at two different levels. One is in reference to specific
deiti
es, and the other is in reference to the notion or concept, which is general.
My actions indicate that I do not believe in the God of the Bible, which
is to
say that I do not attend _any_ church, I do not adhere to Christian dogma,
I
do not proselytize people, I do not send money to televangelists, and I
do not
pray to such a being. Hence, by my actions, concerning the God of the Bible,
I am an atheist. I have readily admitted that fact.
My actions also indicate that I am an agnostic, which is to say that I am
not
pre-occupied with the question of the existence of god, proofs or evidence
for
_any_ such being, or that I actively engage in conversations with various
pro
ponents of various religions (fundies or whomever). I do not ask for such
proo
fs or evidences, or even consider the problem. Why? Because I do not believe
t
hat such knowledge is available to us as possible elements of experience.
Henc
e I bracket out the question of the existence of God entirely, and apply
Ockha
m's razor. For me, it is not a problem which can be answered, so I do not
pay
attention to it.
According to the FAQ on the introduction to Atheism from the alt.atheist
news
group on Usenet, the weak atheist _assumes_ that there is no god, in an
attemp
t to test whether or not there is a god. I, as an agnostic, believe there
is n
othing to test, hence I make no assumptions about it at all. I do not consider
evidence for the existence of god, simply because any such being would transc
end the limits of human knowledge. So why bother with the problem at all?
To m
e, it would be like looking for the last number in an infinite set, or attempt
ing to arrive at the last decimal place for Pi. The very nature of the problem
is stupid or foolish, so I do not even consider the problem. Thus I am not
an
atheist, in either the weaker or stronger sense of the word.
I placed the statement in my original posting, simply because there are
some o
ut there who are so stupid, that they will regard anything which is not
of the
status quo, to be an admission of some kind of belief in some kind of deity.
(only those who would make the inference will take umbrage to that)
If I believed in the God of the Bible, my actions would indicate that I
did. T
hey do not, hence I fall into the category of an atheist in reference to
that
specific deity.
<<<<< continued in the next message >>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Atheists can't read...
Date: 12 Jan 94 13:48:09
--------
EID:f1a2 1c2c6e00
MSGID: 1:247/133 068efa8d
>So were you in a drunken stupor when you posted that you disbelieved
>in the "God of the bible?"
When I posed the original problem, I made no reference to _any_ specific
deity
, or _any_ specific set of beliefs about the existence of god. I merely
indica
ted that _any_ such knowledge was beyond (transcended) human experience
and kn
owledge. Hence when I say that I neither believe or disbelieve in _any_
god, I
am indicating that _any_ knowledge of the existence of _any_ deity trascends
the limits of human knowledge and experience, and thus I neither _believe_
or
_disbelieve_ it or consider it as a problem which is worthy of my attention
at
all.
Perhaps you have never encountered an argument at two levels before, and
this
is a new experience for you. I encounter them all of the time, and I tend
to t
ake them for granted.
>BTW, you didn't answer my above question. I asked you to confirm or
>deny that you do not have any belief in the existence of Ciya (outside
>her "existence" in imagination, of course). I would appreciate it if
>you would either confirm or deny your lack of belief in _her,_ please.
I do not consider the problem relevant, or worthy of consideration, hence
I wi
ll neither confirm or deny it. Your argument is flawed from its very foundatio
ns, so I refuse to consider the problem. To wit: it is not a problem at
all wh
ich can have an answer, so I apply Ockham's razor and bracket it out.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Hey, what happened to you???
Date: 12 Jan 94 17:59:16
--------
EID:4bb8 1c2c8f60
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d3441c6
REPLY: 1:247/133 0603832e
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Rick:
In a msg of , Rick Vanderzwaag writes to Hector
Plasm
ic:
RV> Curious how silent the two of you have become.
Seems to be contagious. You're exhibiting the same symptoms.
RV> Just incase you have forgotten, I have indicated that in your last postin
g
RV> to me, you admited that there was evidence for the existence of god,
whic
h
RV> is the existence of the universe as a whole.
The universe is evidence for the existence of God like rainbows are evidence
f
or the existence of leprechauns.
RV> You claimed that "real time"
RV> had its origins at the big bang. I pointed out that "out of nothing,
RV> nothing comes" and that there are no uncaused events. If the universe
has
a
RV> beginning, then it must have a cause. If "real time" has a beginning,
the
n
RV> it must have a cause.
First, you're making one mistake...you're worrying about what happened before
real time (by trying to find a cause for the universe and the source of
it's e
xistence). But as far as I know the theory states that "time" did not exist
b
efore the big bang. Therefore questions of what occurred before the big
bang
are non-questions. The universe has always been, but for a finite amount
of t
ime. Just as the expansion of the universe defines space (it isn't expanding
into anything) so the existence of the universe defines time.
RV> If you believe the explanations of science, then that
RV> is a matter of faith until it is demonstrable beyond a reasonable doubt,
RV> however, if it remains one of many theories about the origins of the
RV> universe, some which include a creator, and others which do not, and
none
RV> of them are completely demonstrable as fact, then they are matters of
RV> faith.
But current evidence is consistent with big bang theory. So far no explanatio
n involving a creator involves predictions or a method of falsification.
Imag
ine finding what appears to be uniform footprints in the snow. I theorize
tha
t the footprints were made by a human who is walking. My theory predicts
that
the footprints will remain somewhat consistent. If the size of the footprint
s suddenly quadruple in size then there is reason to think that my theory
is w
rong. Now imagine someone who claims that the footprints are the result
of in
visible fairies playing in the snow (who are shy and never wish to be seen
in
action). Is this a credible theory? If the footprints remain the same
it say
s nothing about the theory. If the footprints change it says nothing about
th
e theory. The assertion that invisible fairies are creating the prints
is the
same as the assertion that John is a married bachelor, or that a being exists
who can never, ever, be detected.
RV> If you believe in what science tells you, and are unable to prove it
as
RV> true, then you are a practitioner of faith, just like the theist.
Only evidence is needed to form a rational belief.
RV> Sir Arther Canon Doyle once said that once you have eliminated all of
the
RV> possibilities, whatever is left over, no matter how unlikely or improbabl
e,
RV> must be the truth. When considering the origins of the universe, if
you a
re
RV> unable to prove any one particular theory (Anthropic principle, grand
RV> unified theory, combination between quantum mechanics and general
RV> relativity, or god) then to believe any one of them is a matter of faith,
RV> whch is to say that it is a firm pursuasion or conviction based on hearin
g.
Based on the evidence some theories are more likely than others. When contemp
lating the origin of the universe it is most rational to believe the explanati
on that is best supported by the evidence.
RV> was no divine intervention. They, like you, have made a choice of what
to
RV> believe about the origins of the universe, and believe it to be true.
Tha
t
RV> does not make their decision illogical or irrational.
Their choice is neither an assertion nor a theory.
RV> Until such a time as
RV> you are able to demonstrate that the universe was not created by god,
the
n
RV> to assume either position is to practice faith. The position of the
RV> agnostic is simply "I don't know."
Knowledge and belief are two separate things (as I believe Tyler tried to
tell
you but I think you ran from him also). And you have knowledge about the
uni
verse and the role of a divine creator in it's existence...that is, you
have n
o evidence for one. Think of it this way. You are told that Steve likes
to f
requently visit a certain bar. Curious, you park outside the bar for two
week
s yet not once do you see any signs of Steve. Do you believe you have knowled
ge about the question of Steve's frequency of visits to the bar? I believe
yo
u do. It is most likely that Steve does not frequently visit the bar. It
is p
ossible that Steve may be sneaking in the bathroom window, or he may be
out of
town, but it certainly appears that Steve does not frequent the bar.
What knowledge do you think is necessary to falsify the "assertion" that
a div
ine creator exists?
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Jay Barrymore
Sub: Re: The All Knowing and the individual
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:41:59
--------
EID:477c 1c275520
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d34b8db
JB> This entire scenario is one of total insanity: An All-Knowing God
JB> that sets out to create "Free Will" beings that he KNOWS will rebel,
JB> but goes ahead and follows through with the plan, pretending that he's
JB> allowing man to make a choice.
Dear Jay, I'm not sure how serious you are in your argument but I'm up for
a
reply in any case. I pray the Lord YHWH make Himself known to you, for
any
words I have are imperfect and I ask the Lord's forgiveness if I do not
present this as the Holy Spirit would direct. Bless you Jay!
Well here goes, yes what you say troubles me too, but when you read the
Bible it becomes obvious that much of the "theology" that is currently
pop is contentious even among the bro's and sisters of the faith.
Rather than concentrating on love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfullness and self control and losing sight of do justice, love mercy
and
walk humbly with the Lord your God, we attempt to respond to arguments by
using extensions of scripture (some of which are not even accurate extensions)
and we do not conquer the unbeliever. How can we prove the existence of
God
without the Holy Spirit working in the heart of that person to whom we are
displaying our loving faith?
The _all knowing_ God, who sees the future in all detail but still presents
choice in the present, is a concept that goes beyond scripture. An all
powerful God, who brings about the prophesy, makes it happen, is definitely
scriptural. If He says a powerful island nation with many trading partners
is going to perish by flames, it will happen. Many prophesies came with
an "unless you repent" clause to the contract. One future if you do another
if you don't.
We are individuals in God's perception and He has made it very clear that
He
does not wish to lead us about by bit and bridle. At the same time, we
are
all part of an unfolding story, with constant warfare between two Gods.
There are only two masters, the choice is yours.
Your presence is requested at the table of the Good Lord.
... Peace on earth to men of good will....
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Luke Enriquez
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 11 Jan 94 22:42:10
--------
EID:ea3d 1c2bb540
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d3371bd
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 39d9b022
Hello Martin!
07 Jan 94 08:36, Martin Goldberg wrote to Luke Enriquez:
LE>> More to the point, it is foolish to label something as
LE>> evil simply because you feel uncomfortable about it. I feel
LE>> uncomfortable about homosexuality, but I cant see why I should
LE>> call it evil. I feel uncomfortable about islamic countries, but I
LE>> dont think there more evil than anyone else.
MG> Fundamentalist Xtians will simply point out that it is not condoned
by
MG> their bible so they MUST be against it. If it is specificall mentioned
a
s
MG> an evil or if it is simply not mentioned as good, then they are against.
MG> They tend to blunder through life int his fashion with their eyes wide
MG> shut.
Well feed them some gruel and send them on their way.
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:52:11
--------
EID:516a 1c2cae80
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d34b79a
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2fae48
Hello Jeff!
09 Jan 94 01:30, Jeff Jones wrote to Dan Sereduick:
DS>> Hence, atheism has loose ties to religion, in that if you don't
DS>> believe in religion, you are an atheist. If there is no
DS>> religion, all people are atheists, andthere is no basis for
DS>> calling anyone an atheist.
JJ> By this logic, then, black people have loose ties to white people because
JJ> they are non-white. And if there were no other race besides the black
JJ> race, there would be no reason to call oneself "black". And if all
JJ> musicians were piano players there would be no such thing as "violin",
JJ> "guitar", etc. and no "pianos"! Everyone who played The Instrument
would
JJ> be a "musician".
To know good, one must first know bad!
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:54:12
--------
EID:e0b7 1c2caec0
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d34b81e
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2fae4c
Hello Jeff!
09 Jan 94 01:43, Jeff Jones wrote to Len Ovens:
JJ> Sure, plenty. But first you'll have to demonstrate how this creator
of
JJ> your's doesn't violate "nature's laws".
Maybe it is "nature's laws".
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Dead Sea Scrolls
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:05:13
--------
EID:a8b6 1c2cb0a0
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d34bb1f
REPLY: 1:350/401 86242DA5
Hello Dan!
06 Jan 94 07:42, Dan Ceppa wrote to Peter Vanderkam:
DC> Actually, the original documents that the bible is based on
DC> were found around 1945 in some caves near Qumran.
Not quite. The DSS were aged at approx. 250-300 AD. A comparison was m
ade between several parts of the old testement and the DSS.
PV>> abandoned house. Nothing could be further from the truth. The books
PV>> which are now contained in our (Westerners) Old Testament, were then
PV>> (and are still today) known as the Hebrew Scriptures, and were very
DC> To an extent, true. However, compare the more original
DC> documents to the later translations. Besides the normal
DC> problems in any translation, you will note many obvious
DC> mis-translations, additions and deletions from the older
DC> texts.
True.
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: All
Sub: Evolution, Part 1
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:47:26
--------
EID:c20b 1c2c5de0
While digging through yet another box of old remainders and
files (gad...I hate spring cleaning), I found this missive
that I put together in response to some cement-headed
creationist who was making all sorts of unfounded, untrue
and just plain out-and-out dense remarks regarding evolution.
I hope you find it interesting. (If not, too bad; you've
already down-loaded it and if you don't read it, your computer
will automatically revert to a TRS 80. You have been warned.)
***********************************************************
"Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene
frequencies of populations over the generations in time that
produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with
modification": a painfully slow process, usually operating over
hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years and
generations. Geological and paleontological additions to
this definition are noted in the fact that over the span of
geological time, organisms have progressed from the simple
to the more complex.
There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which
should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general
process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new
species) change, which is considered a well established
scientific fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to
higher life forms [though now largely discredited], (3.) the
particular history of the "Tree of Life" and the origins of
various groups, or phylogenies, which are interpreted from the
fossil record and biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism
of evolution, which Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural
selection", but is currently being investigated and modified by
scientific research. Punctuated equilibria is an example of
the latter.
Here following are some of the major arguments and objections
that Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers
from the perspective of mainstream science:
1. FACT, OR THEORY? Evolution became established as fact
because it unified thousands of disparate observations by
comparative anatomists, botanists, field naturalists,
geologists, paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists.
Without the unifying concept of a changing world in
process over eons of time, modern science could not and
would not exist.
That species are related through common ancestry is
supported by scores of interlocking research fields, each
which supports the rest. Evolution is as well established
fact as gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not
going to stop falling in midair while scientists debate
whether Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by
Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time,
while we continue to search for the why and how of
evolution.
If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of
nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of
dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them
were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and
had no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious"
or call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful
inquiry. It is rather an answer that stops all further
questions.
2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION: While some critics
concede that new species (_Drosophilia sp._, for example) have
been produced in the lab, they claim general evolution has
never been experimentally demonstrated. By this, they mean
breeding a succession of progressively "higher" or more
complex species. But, there is no such theory of general
evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old Victorian notions of
"inevitable progress" as opposed to the simple to more
complex progress noted in the fossil record, biologically
are outmoded and well discarded.
3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS: The time worn and oft-repeated claim
that there are no transitional forms is demonstrably false.
The Great Karroo region of South Africa is a vast graveyard
of mammal-like reptiles, a whole array of species whose
anatomy was intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There
is the famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth,
claws and dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between
reptiles and birds. And the African homonid fossils
represent creatures with human-like dental patterns, small
brains, arms longer than humans but shorter than modern
apes, with pelves, feet and legs for upright walking.
Transitional fossils are fairly rare because, going by
current theory, most species remain stable for long periods.
When change does occur, it happens in a relatively rapid (in
geological terms) timespan and oftimes occurred in small,
isolated populations. The fossil record has been compared to
freezing a multileveled parking garage in time. Most cars
would be found on the various floors, with very few on the
ramps. The amount of time each car spends on the ramp is
short when compared to the length of time it remains parked,
yet each must have traveled the ramp.
Another evidence of transition is found in biogeographic
distribution of living species. On Pacific island chains,
biologists have tracked populational species across
thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms from one
end of the island chain to the other.
Among living species, there is a series of intermediate
species between lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and
thrushes and wrens.
4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF": There is a very common misconception
the Darwin thought he had "proved" by logic that species
evolved. He was, in fact, a much subtler thinker and
philosopher of science. "The change of species cannot be
directly proved, and...the doctrine must sink or swim
according as it groups and explains [disparate] phenomena.
It is unequivocally curious how few people judge it this way,
which is the correct way.
5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS: That there are "holes" and unanswered
questions in evolutionary theory (just as there are in
quantum theory) is incontrovertible, which is normal for
healthy science. As noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark
forest, would you reject a dim, flickering lantern on the
grounds the light it gave was imperfect?" "I think not",
mused Huxley, "I think not."
... "Evolution: The fossils say no!"- Gish; "Gish is an idiot" -fossils.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: All
Sub: Evolution, Part 2.
Date: 12 Jan 94 10:01:03
--------
EID:2b03 1c2c5020
6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST": This hoary old
chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on the
tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was laid
to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest
survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform
definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an
explanation.
But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases",
such as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from
monkeys", the heart of Darwin's theory remains sound:
overproduction of offspring in nature, genetic variability
and a sorting process, which results in both long-term stability
and episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new
research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of
these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential
sorting as they occur on various levels within populations
of the same organism.
7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE": Some assume that research and
inquiry into biology and zoology must lead to the
formulation of fixed laws like those of chemistry or
physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures of extinct
creatures, working out their distribution in evolutionary
hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past indeed meets
and exceeds all the criteria of science; as evidenced by
paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy.
The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as
a "humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors
in understanding and even the loss of human life. For
example, Dr. L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda
University (Seventh-Day Adventist) "school" of medicine
tried to save the life "Baby Fae", an infant born with a
severely malformed heart. He surgically implanted a baboon's
heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and the child
died.
He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a
chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much
better chance of success because of the chimp's closer
evolutionary proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that
he "didn't believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see
what it had to do with the practice of medicine."
Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting,
and bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's
oxymoronically monikered "Institute of Creation Research";
who spend their time at their self-described "God directed
ministry" trying to inculcate their own particularly skewed,
and narrowly sectarian, version of Biblically mandated (or
so they say) morality, into the science curricula of public
schools across the nation; and we can see how the unfortunate
bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical pseudoscience
is indeed homeless.
Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other
than a prime example of a once popular belief that has been
shown to be an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific
documents, specious reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-
mechanistic processes, it belongs in that dustbin of outdated
and useless speculations like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and
Geocentrism.
Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the
hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal
contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd
try to pawn off as "religiously-ordained".
Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an
authoritarian philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of
supernaturalism trying, in vain, to somewhere find a home.
It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging
out "No Vacancy "signs whenever they ooze into town.
... Creationists: Proof that stasis is an unhealthy lifestyle.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Atheists do squat thrusts
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:05:22
--------
EID:8c6f 1c2c58a0
Careful Eugene, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
ML> Got that buckwheat. Tell me, what grade PCDI bit would YOU use
ML> to drill the overpressured Wilcox at 18,000'? Hmmmmm?
DR>
DR> About four hundred-eighty kilos of 1700-feet-per-second explosives.
DR> None of this wimpy and dainty drilling crap.
ML> 1700 FPS explosives? Pshaw. And fie on your nasty little
ML> firecrackers. Give me the old days: a bucket of nitro and a new
ML> record in the 100 m dash.
CE> Come to think of it, a perforator would be an interesting thing to
CE> throw into a Baptist choir. All them _bad_ looking ball bearings and
CE> that 12 pound C4 charger. They are great for catfishin'.
Charge up a Vann gun and watch the fun! These puppies can bore
a 2.435" hole through 21 stacked 1" sheets of deck plate.
Shaped charges...better than scotch...
ML> Reading Jesses' posts is rather like trying to unravel a
ML> moebius. 'Round and round it goes to where it eventually leads
ML> nowhere.
CE> Yes, but it proves mathematically. Jesse's posts do not.
Not mathematically nor otherwise...
... Saved? What for, a rainy day?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Strickland
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:07:54
--------
EID:3cf0 1c2c58e0
David Strickland, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig
:
GG> ... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC> ... +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> ... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML> ... +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for the
DS> Almighty Lard
+Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony for Heyzeus!
... The "Dark Ages" are alive and well in the mind of every fundamentalist
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Tag: BIBLE_SCIENCE was Updated.
Date: 12 Jan 94 11:11:42
--------
EID:32dc 1c2c5960
Steve Quarrella, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
SQ> Hwaet, Marty!
SQ> 7 Jan 94, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Tagname: BIBLE_SCIENCE Area Key: BBLSCNC
SQ>> Title: Bible Science including Creation Science
ML> Will one of the node gods around here PLEASE tell me from
ML> what Houston board I can find, lock and fire on this echo?
SQ> Ask Steve Winter himself out in ECHO_REQ. :) THEN forward all the
SQ> fireworks over here. :)
This sounds like too much fun.
Be prepared....be very prepared....
... The world is a cynic's playground.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 13 Jan 94 06:36:08
--------
EID:7588 1c2d3480
Steve Quarrella, who thought 2000 Rentgens were 2 rad, said to Marty Leipzig:
SQ> Hwaet, Marty!
SQ> 7 Jan 94, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Steve Quarrella:
ML> Well, yes and no; mostly no. I was, of course (you
ML> romantically inclined linguini hoi-polloi>) referring to the normal tongue of the
ML> dewllers of the Land of the Knee-Walking Turkeys;
SQ>
SQ> Ah...Northern Italy.
Plain clothes division...
ML> Good. Although I have been known to arrange an early
ML> Saturday morning garage sale (Garage Sale: Moving out of
ML> state. Everything must go, rock bottom prices: guns,
ML> antiques, jewelry.") for one or more of my more obnoxious
ML> neighbors...
SQ> Although the wife will tell you that I'm not above violence, I have
in
SQ> my 27 years encountered but one human being who drove me to the point
SQ> where I thought about re-enacting the shooting sequence in GANDHI upon
SQ> said person's personage. What you describe above is more my style.
:)
I personally abhor violence. And I'll beat to death anyone who
says otherwise...
Been in a fair amount of barroom brawls in my time (eked my way
through undergradness as a bouncer at the Brat Stop). Nowadays,
with everyone packing heat, and the ridiculous propensity for
frivolous litigation, I usually don't get mad. I get even,
surreptitiously.
Then I flip 'em the bird.
SQ>> So after the guy got burned, did you ask his attorney why his client
SQ>> ignored the sign and touched the set-up anyways?
ML> Yep. (This is true.) He said that: "He thought the signs
ML> were a bluff to keep him off of the equipment."
SQ> And he picked the tiger instead of the lady. I take it that no legal
SQ> action was taken? [I see it was...give us all the details, man!]
Ah, the dumb sack-o'-shit retained and even dumber SOS
lawyer (if that's not a redundancy) and tried to sue me, my
company, the manufacturer of the pumpjack, the electrician, the
sign painter, the landowner (This is true!) because of his
gross stupidity. I told all the litigants involved that I'd
handle the legal proceedings and took it up with our in house
legalslug...ack...attorney.
At the hearing, the judge called the two attorneys and their
charges to his chambers. He asked the goof if he can read. "Yeah,
man. I can read." He asked if he read and understood the large
warning signs on the equipment. "Yeah, man. I saw 'em." "Ah,
you didn't answer the question." "Ah, yeah, man. I saw 'em. I
thought it was a bluff to keep me off the pump." "So, you
saw the warning signs, understood that there was a danger, and
still you went ahead and fooled with the equipment?" "Ah, yeah
man, that's what I said." (At this point, the SOS lawyer is
doing about 845 kelvins.) The judge continued: "So, then you
admit you committed criminal trespass?" "What's that, man?"
I have to hand it to the judge. He didn't lose his temper once
throughout the entire scene.
"Before this goes any further", said the judge, "Let's get one
or two things clear. You entered an industrial site on private
property without the permission of the land owner or the
developer?" "Yeah, I'm sure they would have said no if I asked
them..." "...for the intent of premeditated vandalism...?"
"...Man, they're fucking up the Earth. I've got to stop them
before they kill everything..."
"Dismissed! And, a copy of this deposition will be handed
over to the District Attorney and Mr. SOS Lawyer, I suggest
you prepare yourself for a little visit from the Bar Review
Board."
... The meek will inherit the Earth; the cheesy fucking wimps.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: 40% Cut In Half, _NY_Times_ Reports
Date: 13 Jan 94 09:52:28
--------
EID:0c47 1c2d4e80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d35602c
Somewhere in last week's _New_York_Times_ (1/2/94 1/9/94) there
is an article titled "Church Attendance Figures Cut in Half." It
reports of a study published in December's _Sociological_Review_
by a team lead by Kevin Hyway, that over half of the people who
claim on the phone they attend church do not actually do so. A
phone poll showed that 40% of Protestants and 51% of Catholics
attend church--- however, actual counting of attendees showed that
only 20% of Protestants and 28% of Catholics actually attend church.
Unlike the religious-based Gallup polls, the Hyway poll takes
into account what people do, and not what people say they do.
George Gallup, when presented with the facts, said he would "look
over the figures." <*Snicker*> Gallup consistantly reported that
church attendence was 54%, a constant rate for over 20 years. The
churches themselves generally report much larger numbers in their
ranks than they actually have, seemingly in the belief that the
more people who believe a silly thing makes it less silly. In
fact by actual counting, instead of relying on church leaders to
tell the truth, membership in most mainstream cults such as
Protestant, Pentacostal, Southern Baptist, Jehovah Witnesses,
Mormons, and Catholic, are all on the decline in North America.
The report also notes that twice as many people polled over the
phone say they voted in previous elections, than people who actually
voted.
---
Last week in the former Soviet Union, 3,000 Russians became Jehovah
Witnesses in a massive baptism. This makes me wonder what that does
to the total heaven-bound Witnesses of 144,000 souls. Doesn't the act
of continuing conversion into the sect jepordize members that already
exist?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Strickland
To: David Rice
Sub: "Missing day"
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:54:44
--------
EID:8dc0 1c2cb6c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d358832
David Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: Robert Curry
About: "Missing day"
RC> Did you see Gary Glunz's post mentioning a girlfriend who said
RC> there is a Mormon planet somewhere "out there?" Any info? Does
RC> _it_ have elephants, too? :-)
Here's a brief sampling from a Mormon-Christian "debate" and they just happen
to mention that very thing (Mormon planet that is)...
The people in question are Captian (C#@ is due to VBBS Network ID shit),
and Brin (obviously alias'). Brin is the mormon.
C#@> If you know anything about Mormon doctrine you know that this is
C#@>the god of Mormonism. His name is Eloheim (or Ahman) and he lives on
a
C#@>planet (or star) nearest the planet Kolob. He is a glorified,
B#@>Actually, our understanding is that Elohim lives on a planet near the
B#@>STAR Kolob.
Enjoy, if you're interested in the whole post (is an on going debate, has
been going on for a few days now), I'll throw it into Holysmoke for all
the participants to see BOTH of their stupidity.
David
!*! "We have the directive from god: Have dominion over
the earth, replenish it, and subdue it. God has not
given us these resources so we can mearly watch their
ecological changes occur." H.D. Bennett, Virginia
timber industry executive.
Quoter v1.3
... Make the World safe for Democracy, shoot Pat Robertson
---
ž TLX v3.30 ž
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:16
--------
EID:27e6 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100861dc
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
SQ>> one of these three and ONLY these three. What about other
SQ>> possibilities, such as a historical Jesus having been doctored up b
SQ>> past mythology and political struggles through the centuries?
MB> Bite your tongue!!!!
SQOh, I know! I'm hateful!
Gee, you have the guts to admit to the historical existence of a man named
Jesus Christ behind all the controversy? Now that takes integrity, my man.
I'm proud of you.
Charlie @1:2370/14
---
* WaveRdr 1.01 [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
VQWK 6.20 [Rev F - 12/20]
--- VFIDO 6.10.05
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--------
From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: TRIVIAL THINGS
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:17
--------
EID:c4d7 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100915eb
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:SQ030 380/25 3615/50 374/1
SQ Hwaet, Lonnie!
SQ 3 Jan 94, dixit Lonnie Coleman ad Robert Curry:
->> As the Gregorian calendar has come into common international usage,
->> the year has become referred to as 1993 C.E. (year 1993 of the Common
->> Era). But does it really matter? What do you call the days of the
LC> 1st... 2nd... 3rd... 4th... 5th... 6th... and Sabbath
SQYou're Portuguese, then?
SQYou've evaded the question. Why is it that the Fundamentalist will ask
SQthe serious question, and then when answered, become all smiles and laugh
SQwhen he is asked a serious question in return?
Why does the Common Era begin exactly at the same time as anno Domini?
Name change?
Charlie @1:2370/14
---
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--------
From: Charlie J. Ray
To: DAVID WORRELL
Sub: Proof
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:18
--------
EID:0719 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 1004a948
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
DWOne cannot help but wonder where you've been hiding. The argument from
DWdesign was debunked long ago. Most self-respecting theists refrain from
DWeven mentioning it.
DW
DW... Send $20 for your free prayer cloth.
There are two kinds of fools--those who send in the $1,000 vow payments,
and those who say there is no God.
Charlie @1:2370/14
---
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--------
From: Charlie J. Ray
To: DAVID WORRELL
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:19
--------
EID:da60 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 1004d9aa
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
GN> I'd say it takes at LEAST a lot of GUTS to be sure there is no
GN> God, if not faith...
DW_IF_ there was evidence of this god, then you might be right. However,
DWyou fundy types don't seem to be able to come up with any evidence...
DW... Do you know Jesus? If so, please tell him he owes me $10.
Gee, I wonder how millions of people in the world today, not to mention
their predecessors, could believe in something that has absolutely no
evidence? And, you know, how do they have all those BIG seminaries where
they study nothing? Gee, and you know they write volumes of scholarly
works on the Bible and Jesus and God and they don't even have any evidence
to work from. It's all just fantasy and the creative imagination. And,
you know the real crime is that all these scholars get paid a good salary
and book royalties too--and all for a lack of objective evidence and
materials to work from. Imagine that!
Charlie @1:2370/14
P.S. Jesus Riviera is doing hard time at NY State Prison for stealing
$10.00 from the old lady next door.
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STARWYN
Sub: Steve's PR for your reli
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:20
--------
EID:80fb 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100c1084
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
DL>From the above it would appear that you take things too far.
DL>They are accepted in all general functions and can even attend
DL>baptisms & etc, but will not be allowed baptism themselves.
S@Why? How am I taking it too far when you deny one group of people rights
S@you
S@allow to others? I'm very curious to hear your answer.
DL>You should think before you jump, Starwyn. Erronious
DL>conclusions when mixed with stereotypes can cause fires. We are
DL>NOT homophobic. Heteros living together are not allowed baptism
DL>either. You should add that fact to the fire before you
DL>continue blowing off smoke at me...
S@Why aren't they? What if 2 gay folks married each other? Would you then
S@allow them baptism?
When they can have a baby naturally, call the Pope and ask him to
reconsider.
Charlie @1:2370/14
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:21
--------
EID:1666 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100074f2
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
SQ>> The most important was this bit about "emptiness". Please
SQdemonstrate
SQ>> for the court how we're all "empty", and of course, please present
SQ>> with the evidence upon which you base this outrageous claim.
SQYou claim that I'm "empty", yet I tell you that I have a meaningful life
SQand you pull the "You aren't truly happy unless you have a deity". THAT
SQis unfounded horseshit.
Try anthropology. The religious impulse has been documented and observed
in practically every culture that we know of, beginning with the
Neanderthal grave with flowers in it, dating to tens of thousands of years
ago.
Charlie @1:2370/14
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:22
--------
EID:a425 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100bd9c5
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
SQHow about bashing babies against rocks? You show a great need to be
SQproud of Biblical stories, so be proud of all of them.
Those words do not necessarily express divine approval of such behavior.
Humanity is clearly allowed free expression in the Psalms where the desire
for vindication as in this verse is clearly expressed. Note also that the
psalmist freely complains to God about the mistreatment he is getting from
the ungodly. I wonder how some of the Christians on this echo feel?
JC> when God declared that he was not a mere power behind the
JC> elements, he was being itself: "I AM!"
SQPopeye said the same thing.
So Popeye plagiarized God. Atheists do it all the time, why can't Popeye?
SQ... I Hail Stargoat!
Who? (Who's the nut here?)
Charlie @1:2370/14
***Wanted: A few good men willing to suffer for the love of friends--and
enemies.***
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: STEVE QUARRELLA
Sub: The Reign of God is at h
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:23
--------
EID:6fcd 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100cabcd
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
Q 4 Jan 94, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> If Mother Earth is dying, isn't it time for your Messiah to come
SQalong
SQ>> and put things right?
2 Peter 3:1-10 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing
to
you; in them I am trying to arouse your sincere intention by reminding you
2 that you should remember the words spoken in the past by the holy
prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken through your
apostles. 3 First of all you must understand this, that in the last days
scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts 4 and saying,
"Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died,
all
things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!" 5 They
deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long
ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through
which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7 But
by
the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire,
being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day
is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord
is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient
with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. 10 But
the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass
away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and
the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed. (NRSV)
Charlie @1:2370/14
***Pay the devil that $10.00 you owe him or let Jesus pick up the tab.***
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Fear And Loathing...not!
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:24
--------
EID:76e0 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100b0fe1
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
ML>> might slip and be sent to eternal damnation.
SB> This does not describe most of the Christians I know and it
SB> certainly does not describe me. Salvation is not that
SB> fragile that if you make one little slip, God will damn you
SB> for eternity. God is very forgiving.
MGThen why do we get christians telling us that it will? Don't deny the
fa
MGthat there are christians that claim that a slip up will damn you for
MGeternity
MGint he fiery pit while god laughs about it.
There are aberrations in every movement and religion. It is fallacious
to
judge every Christian and every denomination by one person or church.
Inductive reasoning requires that one examine the specifics of a majority
of Christian denominations to see what they are teaching on the subject
of
salvation. I think that you will find that the average non-Christian is
more judgmental and hateful than any Christian for one simple reason--they
do not understand grace.
According to a recent Barna survey, 73% of Americans believe in eternal
punishments, but when asked about grace less than 20% even knew what grace
was. I wouldn't want to serve a God who was just waiting for me to slip
up
either. The problem is anthropomorphism--people think that because the
boss is ready to can them for the least mistake that God is like that.
On
the contrary, no one is forgiven on the basis of how well they perform or
how good they are. Forgiveness is unconditionally given by accepting Jesus
Christ. The just live by faith, not the letter of the law. When the want
to is there, the law is not necessary. There is no need for laws where
there are no criminals.
Charlie @1:2370/14
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Aids
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:25
--------
EID:50b1 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 1000ef5d
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said: SB> Well, I was able to get
people here to agree with me that if
SB> people followed the Christian doctrine of sex only within
SB> marriage, that the number of AIDS cases would be cut
SB> dramatically. How you can fail to see this, I just do not
SB> understand.
MGNow, Steve...I thought that we had agreed in principle that strict monoga
MGwas
MGthe same as sex within marriage. Is it that hard to give up your bible?
Strict monogamy by very definition IS sex within HETEROSEXUAL marriage.
Charlie @1:2370/14
***St. Peter to Tip O'Neil: "I'm sure you're listed along with all the
other congressmen here. The problem is--there are no congressman listed
here.***
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:26
--------
EID:d3b4 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 10068f86
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said: MG>> Putrescine! Network:
Stinking for Jesus.
DC> Looking for a good topper in the dictionary, I ran across
DC> this one... Hope you like it.
DC> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MGLap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
MG--- msgedsq 2.1
Sounds like a bunch of self-deluded sodomites to me. Imagine being proud
of the oral consumption of feces and semen. Very rational behavior indeed.
Charlie @1:2370/14
MG * Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:27
--------
EID:dceb 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100d67d2
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said: DR> I found the following
quote, and laughed my balls off.
MGHow WILL you ever maintian your hormone levels?
DR> "In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to
DR> full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate
DR> School is committed to traditional education and to high
DR> standards of academic excellence..."
MGIn my wildest dreams, I don't think we could be so fortuante as to get
on
MGof
MGtheir graduates in here.
Ever wonder why the intellectuals never enter the land of ad hominem
flame-outs?
Maybe seminary graduates have more productive things to do with their
time--like communicate with respectful inquirers.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 18:2 A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
but only in expressing personal opinion. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Adam...
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:28
--------
EID:a75a 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100c4e08
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said: DL> Can you give ANY evidence
that he doesn't? The answer is that
MGYawn.....you don't prove negatives.
DL> there is no solid evidence either way. Did you know that it is
MGIf I told you that I had an invisible pink hippo in my backyard would
you
MGbleieve me? Well I don't believe tht you have a deity that creates matte
MGfrom
MGnothing.
DL> whoever it was had implied that it was only the creation of
DL> man, thereby lending credence to the incorrect conclusion
DL> that Adam and Eve were not the first. -!- GEcho 1.00
MG[loads of bs deleted]
MGIt's simple. Provide evidence for you god. Whichever one you worship
th
MGis.
There is plenty of evidence. Absolute proof? No. Whoever said that
Christianity claimed to be absolutely provable? In fact, any valid truth
claim must also be falsifiable. The problem with you is that you have your
mind made up and you are too intellectually lazy to come up with any really
thoughtful reasons for your atheism.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer fools according to their folly,
or you will be a fool yourself. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:30
--------
EID:8b38 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 1005f15a
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JS> 1. I am opposed to teaching in schools that Homosexuality is
JS> normal 2. I am opposed to homosexuals adopting children.
JS> Because many of them are pedophiles.
MG1. Homosexuality is not normal because it is not practiced by a majority
MGof
MGthe population. This, however does nto make it unnatural as it occurs
in
MGnature. In either case, there is no reason to consider people ont he
bas
MGof
MGtheir sexual preferences.
Bestiality is a sexual preference and so is pedophilia. Simply because
a
physical act is possible does not make it "natural." Homosexual behavior
among animals is not widespread, and even it were it would not justify
humans re-enacting animal behavior. The implication here is that human
beings have no control over their sexual behavior--even Safe Sex doesn't
make that mistake. New behavioral therapies incorporate aversion therapy
to help people overcome socially and legally unacceptable behavior--why
don't homosexuals simply change their unacceptable behavior?
MG2. You would need to provide some kind of evidence to me that a large
MGpercentage of gays are pedophiles. I don't believe it.
The real point here is not whether or not homosexuals are pedophiles. The
point is that homosexuals choose not to procreate by normal means, yet they
want others to give them children. By this means they can be assured that
their belief system will be taught to these adopted children who then
perpetuate the homosexual lifestyle. Isn't it amazing that children become
like those who raise them?
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 22:6 Train children in the right way,
and when old, they will not stray. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: QUENTIN FAI
Sub: FidoNews Submission
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:32
--------
EID:a76c 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100eebdd
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
QFI was eavesdropping on Styx Allum, and I heard:
SA> > And to leave you with a warm Stevie Bewildered thought:
SA> > "Satan is a serpent. All those who go to hell will take
SA> > on the form of their master. A serpent is worm like. All
SA> > those who go to heaven will have a body like their
SA> > master... the lord Jesus Christ, a 33 1/2 year old male."
SA> > Steve Winter, HOLYSMOKE echo. [spelling corrected --- drice]
SA> When was Steve Winter ever actually in HolySmoke?
SA> I suspect that the actual text originated elsewhere, and was
SA> imported into our beloved echo.
QFI don't think Steve Winter ever showed up here, though he does read the
QFecho, as evidenced by his reply to a message mocking the hell out of
QFPRIMEnet. I believe that quote came from the Chatty Ralphie Doll (Ralph
QFStokes).
QF * JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * I think Steve Winter is a closet homosexual.
QF--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
QF * Origin: The TERMINAL BBS [403]327-9731 Lethbridge,AB (1:358/17)
Don't venture out of the safety of your own territory unless you've got
the
ammunition to back it up. Besides, according to most orthodox standards,
he is a heretic anyway. The brand? It's called monarchian modalism--God
is not triune, he simply expresses himself in three different modes or
masks.
Fire away boys, I ain't goin' away unless duty calls.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 22:10 Drive out a scoffer, and strife goes out;
quarreling and abuse will cease. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: JOSHUA LEE
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:34
--------
EID:7f56 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100d8a53
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JLOn Dec 31 07:18, Jesse C. Jones of 1:271/250 wrote:
JLThe atheists I have encountered are kind and decent people. They are
JLcollege
JLprofessors, medical doctors, and psychological therapists. Not exactly
yo
JLstereotypical atheist ne'r do well. If asked, most of them said the reaso
JLwhy
JLthey do not believe in God is that they cannot understand why God permits
JLevil.
JLThis is good in intention, as it is a distaste for the evil in the world.
JLJob
JLand Abraham would certainly agree with them on the principle: "Shall the
JLGod of
JLjustice not do justice?", but would insist that they should not reject
th
JLdialogue altogeather between God and his children, what Wiesel has called
JL"the
JLtrial of God".
JLThe only camp of "harmful" atheists that I know of is those who are like
JLPhaeroh who said "The Nile is mine and I made myself", which is to say,
JLsomeone
JLwho considers themself to be the only God. These people are the Hitlers
a
JLStalins, and they are thankfully rare and I suspect none of the atheists
JLhere
JLare totalitarian monomaniacs, despite the frequent broad brush cold-war
JLoriginated attacks on them that are popular in the United States.
JLAll I wish to do here religion-wise, all that my religion commands me
to
JLreligionwise, is to hope that people who are not of my religion will lear
JLto
JLbe decent, as they can. (E.G. the book of Jonah) You don't have to believ
JLin
JLany set of doctrines to be a good person.
JL JBL
One respects those who live moral lives despite the lack of a deontological
basis for their ethics. The problem arises when the majority decides that
a certain immorality is no longer immoral because of situational ethics
or
popular opinion. For example, abortion is done on a regular basis by
professional doctors who have taken the hippocratic oath to heal and not
to
kill. Yet this murderous behavior is condoned because the majority says
it
is O.K. and the doctor is a good ol' boy or gal, as the case may be.
If humans are basically good, why do we have all these wars? Why the
Hitlers, Sadam Husseins? In my opinion, only the naive can believe that
humanity is basically good. If that were true, why have laws, police
forces, even governments? In small towns one can leave one's door unlocked
at night, but don't try it in NYC.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 10:23 Doing wrong is like sport to a fool,
but wise conduct is pleasure to a person of understanding. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: JOSHUA LEE
Sub: A HolySmoker's Dyslexico
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:35
--------
EID:db12 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100119eb
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JLAll of this is just so you can turn on your computers, which use up to
40
JLof
JLcommercial electricity according to nuts at the EPA and the Swedish
JLGovernment.
JLAnd we haven't even gotten to Silicon Valley yet with it's highly toxic
JLmetal
JLwaste and CFCs used for cleaning circuitry.
JLGee, I hope the Earth First guys don't hear about this, they might decide
JLto
JLadvocate the banning of reading in the United States altogeather. ;-(
JL JBL
Let the one who doesn't pollute cast the first stone--or you turn your
computer off first and I will follow.
Environmental concerns are legitimate, but let's not get self-righteously
overzealous. I don't know of anyone who walks everywhere they go.
BTW, that was pretty good preaching for someone who doesn't believe in
preaching.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 19:10 It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury,
much less for a slave to rule over princes. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: JOSHUA LEE
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:36
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EID:d1df 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100ebb74
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JLYep, but according to Fundys, *both* are going to be sentenced to eternal
JLtorture by their god with the hundred thousand or so True Christian
JLspectators
JLallowed eternal life getting to watch it as their eternal entertainment.
Confused? It is the JW's who believe in the 144,000 who make it to heaven.
Those who have not heard the Good News are judged by the light they have
received through natural revelation and general revelation. All are not
necessarily condemned who have not had the chance to hear. But those who
have heard and rejected condemn themselves.
John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,
so
that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 "Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the
world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those
who
believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are
condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only
Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the
world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were
evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light,
so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true
come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have
been done in God." (NRSV)
Charlie @1:2370/14
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: JOSHUA LEE
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:38
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EID:af0e 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 1005cc34
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JLOn Dec 28 07:57, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JC>> You see, this is how you heathens in this conference
JC>> define a "reasonable Christian" -- one that agrees with
MB>> of what makes him what he is: the most compassionate,
MB>> understanding, forgiving, loving, and just plain nice
MB>> person I've ever had the privilege of knowing.
JCJ> This indicates to me that you are secure
JCJ> enough in your own beliefs that you do not need
JCJ> to attack and despise those who disagree with you.
JLI suspect she is really commenting, in a justifyably angry way, how your
JLclaim
JLto the atheists that they do less good things on the avarage than others
JLinsulting.
JLIt's insulting in the same way as claiming that Jews are more greedy.
JLOf course, good Christians don't slur as much as atheists, and don't have
JLas
JLmany prejudices against people with other beliefs, since they are full
of
JLlove
JLtowards all people, including those they view as sinners.
JLIf your claim is true, that Christians are better ethically than atheists
JLset
JLan example. Otherwise you're *quite* unconvincing when you act like a
JLhypocritical bigot.
"Some people prefer to talk about moral 'ideals' rather than moral rules
and about moral 'idealism' rather than moral obedience. Now it is, of
course, quite true that oral perfection is an 'ideal' in the sense that
we
cannot achieve it. In that sense every kind of perfection is, for us
humans, an ideal; we cannot succeed in being perfect car drivers or perfect
tennis players or indwawing perfectly straight lines. But there is another
sense in which it is very misleading to call moral perfection an ideal.
When a man says that a certain woman, or house, or ship, or garden is 'his
ideal' he does not mean (unless he is rather a fool) that everyone else
ought to have the same ideal. In such matters we are entitled to have
different tastes and, therefore, different ideals. But it is dangerous
to
describe a man who tries very hard to keep the moral law as a 'man of high
ideals,' because this might lead you to think that moral perfection was
a
private taste of his and that the rest of us were not called on to share
it. This would be a disastrous mistake. Perfect behaviour may as
unattainable as perfect gear-changing when we drive; but it is a necessary
ideal prescribed for all men [humanity] by the very nature of the human
machine just as perfect gear-changing is an ideal prescribed for all
drivers by the very nature of cars." C.S. Lewis, MERE CHRISTIANITY
No one ever said Christians were perfect--just forgiven. That does not
release the Christian from striving to attain personal holiness and a
measure of love for one's fellow humanity. Sometimes non-Christians are
better at this than Christians. That does not do away with the general
assumption that Christians ought to be better at it, which is implicit in
your point. The standards are the same for all--Christian and
non-Christian. Where the Christian is at advantage is that she begins with
a commitment to sanctification and she has the road map to follow to get
there.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Psalm 119:11 I treasure your word in my heart,
so that I may not sin against you. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: CHUCK DUBMAN
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:39
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EID:37c1 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 10084087
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said: KB> Not to mention "Glad
shall he be who takes thy little ones and dashe
KB> them agains the rocks". Psalms 137:9, no?
GG> But I guess they weren't allowed to examine the bitz & pieces - as
GG> that would've been considered fetal tissue research... :-)
CDThink that's bad? Somewhere in the King Jim Byble exixts a passage where
CDJesus says (I believe) "It is good not to touch a woman."
Paul, not Jesus says:
1 Corinthians 7:1-5 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote:
"It is well for a man not to touch a woman." 2 But because of cases of
sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her
own
husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and
likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority
over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have
authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one
another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves
to
prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you
because of your lack of self-control. (NRSV)
CDAnd speaking of the good book, I'm interested in primarily the juicy part
CD If
CDit's not too much trouble, would someone here mind terribly compiling
an
CDindex
CDof the good parts to save time searching?
How about this 'juicy' one?
1 Corinthians 6:13-18 "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for
food," and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is meant not
for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God
raised the Lord and will also raise us by his power. 15 Do you not know
that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members
of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know
that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it
is
said, "The two shall be one flesh." 17 But anyone united to the Lord
becomes one spirit with him. 18 Shun fornication! Every sin that a person
commits is outside the body; but the fornicator sins against the body
itself. (NRSV)
Sincerely,
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 14:16 The wise are cautious and turn away from evil,
but the fool throws off restraint and is careless. (NRSV)
CD--- Maximus 2.01wb
CD * Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: JOE SCHULTZ
Sub: Real unconvincing eviden
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:41
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EID:0d63 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 100bf2cc
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
JSHow dare you accuse me of being logical! I warn you: You are on thin ice!
JSI implied nothing; I stated what I meant. But then, I am too stronger
I should have known you had another soap box from which you play
intellectual masturbatory games with yourself. One gets the impression
that no matter what one says one will get the worst possible treatment in
return for one's efforts.
Charlie @1:2370/14
Proverbs 17:12 Better to meet a she-bear robbed of its cubs
than to confront a fool immersed in folly. (NRSV)
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From: Charlie J. Ray
To: DON MARTIN
Sub: French pigs
Date: 12 Jan 94 04:25:42
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EID:8113 1c2c2320
MSGID: 1:2370/14 10010f46
PID: VFIDO 6.10.05
I was reading the messages and somebody said:
DMA pregnant pause ensued as Marilyn Burge shared a conception -- French
pi
DM -- with Don Martin on 30 Dec 93 00:16:
MB> On (20 Dec 93) Don Martin wrote to Marilyn Burge...
> DM> I remember being amused in the early 60's at learning that
DMBillie
> DM> Graham owned no fewer than seven Cadillacs. Apart from striking m
DMas
> DM> odd that a proponent of an anti-materialistic religion would make
> DM> public display of so much wealth, I wondered whether he could not
DMhave
> DM> hauled his fanny around to do the lord's work in seven Volkswagens
> DM> But such trifling matters are not a scandal.
MB> While that would easily qualify as a pecadillo of sorts, it would
MB> hardly qualify as a corruption.
Even Diane Sawyer, false prophet finder, could find nothing to accuse Billy
of. Squeaky clean, humble, meek, lovable--can't stand it when a true saint
shows up, can ya? For such an upfront figure his yearly salary is
modest--a mere $80,000 a year. Besides, no one ever said it was a sin to
be wealthy.
Charlie @1:2370/14
1 Timothy 6:9-10 But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and
are
trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin
and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,
and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith
and pierced themselves with many pains. (NRSV)
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