God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Peter Vanderkam
To: All
Sub: WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
Date: 28 Jan 94 22:35:11
--------
EID:5411 1c3cb460
MSGID: 1:229/510@FIDONET.ORG 1e813698
BIBLE INTRO.
The Bible is said to be the "least known best-seller of
all times". It continuous to be sold by the millions on a
worldwide scale, while at the same time it is generally
conceded that, especially in our Western society, acquaintance
with the Bible is on the wane to such an extend that we now
speak of a Bible illiterate generation. Now that religious
education in our elementary schoolsystem is becoming a thing of
the past (and I am speaking of the Canadian scene), this
situation can only get worse. Whether that is good, bad, or
indifferent, is a matter of one's point of view. In my
considered opinion this is a real (if not tragic) loss. Why?
In order to answer that question, we will have to take a
look backwards in order to become aware of the influence the
Bible (and its message) have had on society. We will
subsequently have to take a closer look at what is happening
today in order to assess how today's events can conceivably
influence the future of our society.
In general it can be said, without fear of too much
contradiction, that the influence of religion on the behavior
of people the world over has been, and is, tremendous.
Notwithstanding the fact that an enormous amount of good has
been done in the name of religion (including Christianity), it
can't be denied that much of the violence perpetrated between
nations today is religion based (including Christianity). We
only have to think of what is happening in Yugoslavia, Armenia,
Ireland, North Africa, Sri Lanka, Cambodia India/Pakistan and
the Middle East, to know that religious strife is rampant.
Seeing that this is an introduction to the Bible, we need
to acquaint ourselves with the success/failure of the Bible and
its message. A cursory glance at any world map, which shows the
world religions as a percentage of the world population, makes
it clear that Christianity is by far and away the largest among
the world's great religions. It is clear from this that
comparatively speaking the spread of Christianity has been
phenominal. With over a billion adherents, its influence has
been, and still is tremendous.
What we need to keep in mind is that all that influence
originated in reports which surrounded the life, death and
resurrection of a Jew, named Jesus. He lived and died some two
thousand years ago, but the story of that event, and its
meaning, have been carried abroad by missionaries with the
results just shown. That message ultimately came to be
contained between the covers of a book, the Bible. It is with
the relevance of the Bible that we are concerned today.
There are certain events taking place on the spiritual
level which are so well documented that they are accepted as
facts. One of those facts is that Islam today is the fastest
growing religion on a worldwide basis. Another fact is that
teachers of other world religions are seeing the North American
continent as a spiritual wasteland which has caused them to
target the US and Canada as prime areas for new recruits. Yet
another fact is that Christianity on the North American
continent as well as in Europe is on the decline, whereas it is
on the increase in otherworld countries.
Whether those facts fill us with elation or trepidation,
whether they fill us with sadness or joy is of little
consequence. There is, however, no getting away from the fact
that we Christians are under an obligation to tell the story,
which is contained in the Bible, to the best of our ability,
making use of the latest in technic and biblical research.
Does that research, our increased technical know-how, and
our greater secular sophistication threaten the Truth, either
singly or together? My answer is: NO, they don't, but.... they
may well force us to restate our centuries old story of the
Good News. That, for many, is a scary proposition, but given
the influence that book has had, and still has, and the
responsibilities we individually as well as collectively carry,
we have no other option than to engage in a thorough study of
all the relevant material we can find, if only for the sake of
the TRUTH!
What research are we talking about? The research I speak
of has been taking place in such diverse disciplines as
History, Archaeology, Geology, Literature, Biology, and others.
What new evidence has that research in those disciplines
unearthed, and what is the nature of those findings that they
could conceivably cause us to consider changing our belief
statements?
The findings in those fields of inquiry have enabled us to
place the Bible in its historical context. From my own
experience I can tell you that doing so is quite an experience.
For instance, thanks to incredible historical and literary
detective work, scholars of all stripes are now agreed that the
first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) were not written
by Moses, but are a composite of the writings of different
authors who not only lived in different eras, but also lived in
different parts of the country.
That however is the topic of the next post.
Peace
Peter!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff238/x]
* Origin: OnLine Now Thunder Bay ON, Canada (807)-345-1531 (1:229/510)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 229/510 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:58:04
--------
EID:3d08 1c3c1740
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e026bd5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8be261
PID: FM 2.02
> which he shares. Hitler was a lovely Christian, too, who justified
> the genocide of Jews using the same mythologies; specifically, the
> Isis/Jesus mythos and its "clearing out of the temple." (Just ask
> for the reference if you don't believe me and I will post Hitlers'
> speech.)
Hey, Dan may not have the balls to see it but I'll be happy to make the
reques
t. Please, Mr Rice, will you post Hitler's speech?
> FR> You don't know that, nationally, and depending upon the
> FR> brand name your brand of Christianity chooses, upwards of
> FR> 66% of your clergy is homosexual. Also, no church
> dl> Actually I KNOW that mine has no homosexual ministers INTERnationally,
> dl> as there are no Bishops who are not the husband of one wife, as is
> dl> required in the Bible, something that most churches do not follow.
I laughed so hard at this, both cats went out the window (into the rain,
no le
ss) and when I laughed so long I was gasping and coughing, my ol'lady got
out
of bed and came in to see if I needed her to call an ambulance or something.
Yeah, "911? My ol'man just read some stupid shit posted by a fundie, and
now
he's not breathing so good, can you send help?"
Someone better send this boy a clue. Just don't write "Educational Material"
on the envelope or he'll panic and toss it in the fireplace, lest he (god
forb
id) learn something.
> You know no such thing. Austin Miles notes in his book "Don't Call
> me Brother" that the majority of the ministers within the Pentecostal
> "Asses of gods" maintained wives with or without families while also
> being caught engaging in one homosexual affair after another. He was
> the one who compiled the statistics of _overt_ homosexuality among
> the ministers -- most of whom were married. He discounted questional
> advances he observed or was the intended target of.
And lots of 'em are married with children. Their children. Their own,
biolog
ical children. Get it, Dan?
I don't know where fundies got the idea that het sex is impossible for gay
men
.
> History proves you wrong in the mistaken belief that marriage to a
> male or a female negates the possibility of homosexuality -- or the
> probability within Christian clergy.
> By not recognizing the fact, you exhibit your intolerance, Dan.
Now, that's a beneficial mistaken belief, Mr Rice. Het blindness has allowed
gays and lesbians to use that camouflage for centuries. Now you gotta go
and
blow their cover by telling this fundie that gay people get married. How
hate
ful of you.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do." (1:215/606)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 215/606 215 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:01:05
--------
EID:7ee2 1c3c1820
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e026bd6
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8be262
PID: FM 2.02
> dl> Winter is pure hate mixed with batent lies and intentionally
> dl> ignoring parts of that which he supposedly supports.
> As an aside, dismissing the inflamatory rhetoric I usually employ:
> Everyone here agrees with you. He is not representitive
> of Christianity and we recognize the fact. Neither is
> Joe Save-lie representitive and we recognize that fact. We
They are, though representative of a sizeable subculture within christianity,
and they do use christianity as one of their tools of oppression. They
bear k
eeping an eye on, if nothing else.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "More light!" (1:215/606)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 215/606 215 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Proof
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:25:06
--------
EID:b7d2 1c3c1b20
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e026bd8
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b952570
PID: FM 2.02
> "General Leipzig? Why's private Keeton clutching his crotch?"
> "Sorry, sir! He was unmanned by Private Martin. We found the chared
> remains, though." fragments>
And all this time, I thought "unmanned" meant a variety of spacecraft operated
robotically or by remote control.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia" (1:215/606)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 215/606 215 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:57:07
--------
EID:df6b 1c3c1f20
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e026bd9
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c887ece
PID: FM 2.02
> @ Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby
Very good, sir. And which wine would you like with that, sir?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "I told you I was sick" (1:215/606)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 215/606 215 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: The End
Date: 28 Jan 94 01:53:03
--------
EID:25ff 1c3c0ea0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487669
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c0914f3
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Fredric!
FR> The guy can't even acknowlege that his Jesus was once Isis
Wow! No wonder diaper-boy always wore those flowing loose robes. It was
done
to hide *her* shapely figure! S/he did good work on that fake beard, as
well
. Fooled 'em completely! :)
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:01:04
--------
EID:cb85 1c3c1020
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487691
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d43f880
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Rob!
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the current
RB> pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the holocaust.
Yeah...some story about him in his young days being told in effect, to 'Pull
this lever'...and he thought he was just turning on the lawn sprinklers.
Littl
e did he know... :)
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:04:05
--------
EID:0309 1c3c1080
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4876b3
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello J.J.!
JJH> Street corners I can deal with. I find street evangelism more
JJH> entertaining than I find it a nuisance.
Aren't those pin-heads a laugh riot!?? :D
I love it when someone gets behind them and crouches down. Then you simply
pu
sh forward a bit and...
JJH> And answering the door without your pants on will take care of the
JJH> door-to-door types.
Also holding a bottle of half-empty gun oil in one's hands...looking mildly
an
noyed...adds to the effect and the laughs! :)
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: George Wells
Sub: Gawd HAS LEFT
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:08:06
--------
EID:834c 1c3c1100
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487759
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello George!
GW> wish to offer my opinion of the "Christian God" that I beleive.
If you are going to support outdated superstitions...at least get it right.
Th
e word is 'believe.'
GW> I also beleive that soon after his son departed from this world,
GW> that he no longer watched over us, and does not to this day.
Much like when one forgets to check the toilet. It just sits and sits...
GW> It would appear to me that this world is some great experiment on this
GW> "God"'s part, which he grew tired of, and left us.
Perhaps the lingering smell will bring him back one day...and he'll remember
t
o
flush the Cosmic Commode. Hope he lowers the seat, as well.
GW> treated harshly for my opinions. Just sharing my thoughts, that is
all.
"Bubbly...bubbly...bubbly...Sani-Flush...a-waaayyyyy!"
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:15:07
--------
EID:c8b1 1c3c11e0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487775
REPLY: 1:2370/14 1008f89a
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Charlie!
CJR> Show me the bones of Jesus in the grave and I will be satisfied that
He
CJR> did not rise from the dead. Show me credible historical accounts by
CJR> Greek, Roman, or Jewish historians that describe how the resurrection
CJR> was faked.
Show us anything that proves some clown called 'jaysus' actually existed
at al
l, and did rise (not counting his peter) and we'll agree he is some kind
of ga
wd after all. That should be easy for any such deity to do...not just
for mi
ndless sheeple who wish it to be so.
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:44:01
--------
EID:6712 1c3c3d80
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d48c346
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e5220e
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Wednesday January 26 1994 09:56, Jerry Faust wrote to Marty Leipzig:
JF> God's love is totally unconditional.
Naturally, all we have to go on your say so...since gawds are totally non-exis
tent, as well.
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Continuing the message...
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:46:02
--------
EID:998e 1c3c3dc0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d48c2eb
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e525e8
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Jerry!
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays, lesbians,
The worms really loved him once, too. He gave them indigestion, though.
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:19:54
--------
EID:00ad 1c3b4260
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d47c00a
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- God Strikes
L.
A. -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 08:48:
ML> not a small amount of hot volcanic gasses. All of a sudden, the
ML> surface broke into individual platelets and started to convect
ML> (just like the bigger continental plates). We all bid a hasty
ML> retreat to the crater rim just in time to see a new $200,000
ML> coring rig slowly being subducted....
ML> The lava fountaining that evening was most impressive.
You guys do get to have all the fun. I have always wanted to see an erup
tion first hand (the lava sort, thankyouverymuch, and not the Mt. St. Helens
s
ort).
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:24:08
--------
EID:c469 1c3b4300
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d47c2a7
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d444a25
A pregnant pause ensued as Steve Quarrella shared a conception -- Your daily
c
huckleth -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 22:21:
> DM> monopoly on the truth business. 'Tis protestantism that makes the
> DM> translations, laddie, starting with Der Luterbibel in Germany and
with
> DM> Tyndall and others in the days of good Henry VIII in England--16th
> DM> century works, all. Too late for Old English.
SQ> Er...about that Vulgate Bible... :)
SQ> [Yes, I know...I'm just throwing a red
SQ> herring your way. I know that the
SQ> majority of literate people were clergy. :) ]
And the Vulgate was in Latin--it wasn't all THAT vulgar as to be in Engli
sh. Back then you didn't COUNT as literate unless you could read Latin.
Stand
ards have fallen sadly in the past few centuries . . . .
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: More Hell Fire
Date: 27 Jan 94 13:44:17
--------
EID:7151 1c3b6d80
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d480c71
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- More Hell
Fire
-- with Martin Goldberg on 24 Jan 94 08:34:
> MG> It reminds me of the old Jack Benny routine where the thief sticks
a
> MG> gun into hsi ribs and says "Your money or your life". Jack stands
> MG> there a second and says "I'm THINKING about it"
ML> Wasn't it also Jack who said: "I got a poodle for my wife. It
ML> was a hell of a good trade."?
I would doubt it. Benny's humor was self-deprecating and not likely to
d
eprecate anyone else; particularly as his wife was so well known, he would
shr
ink from this sort of Henny Youngman "Take my wife - - - - PLEASE!" joke
as li
kely to refer to the real person and hurt her.
ML> Also, why are all your messages tagged "Private"? Surely all
ML> need to be exposed to this high hilarity.
Labels are one thing, reality quite another.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Possibility & probability
Date: 27 Jan 94 14:05:53
--------
EID:6478 1c3b70a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d481236
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Mike Staab shared a conception -- Possibility
& pro
bability -- with Hector Plasmic on 24 Jan 94 10:47:
>> You apparently are hooked on mindless faith. Unless you
>> have some
MS> What I don't understand is how by attacking me in an ad hominum
MS> manner you believe that you've "proved" something.
MS> As you are probably aware, there is nor can there be evidence to
MS> "prove" God in the sense that to deny it would be lunacy. What we
MS> are left with is the concept of possibility and probability. That
MS> God is possible is something even you ought to be able to admit.
MS> It is the question of probability that
MS> discussion ought be centered upon.
MS> You call the belief in God "mindless".
Your argument above goes far to demonstrate that such a belief is mindles
s, for, absent proof or even evidence of the existence of God, that belief
mus
t be based on something other than proof or evidence. Since evidence and
proo
f are necessary for functioning minds to work with when trying to establish
th
e validity of a proposition, that belief which requires neither does not
requi
re a mind, either. Plasmic's characterization is accurate.
Certainly, a god is possible. But then, so is an invisible pink hippo na
med Daisy. Without evidence, belief in either is equally mindless.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Theory???
Date: 27 Jan 94 14:23:28
--------
EID:8865 1c3b72e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d481667
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d435ba4
A pregnant pause ensued as Joe Savelli shared a conception -- Theory???
-- wit
h Tony Nasrallah on 24 Jan 94 00:24:
JS> Why should I or anybody else believe it, and trust in it
JS> if its going to change next year because of some other "fact"
JS> newly discovered.
Why should I or anyone else believe whatever you have to say about anythi
ng if you continue to refuse to provide any evidence for that good soul
in Flo
rida arrested for doing nothing more than praying in a restaurant? We don't
h
ave to fear any new facts being discovered by you, so long as you decline
to d
iscover any at all.
Once again, I put it to you, Mr. Savelli, that you are a lying sack of sh
it and unworthy of belief.
Lying sacks of shit unworthy of belief make rather poor defenders of the
faith.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 28 Jan 94 05:06:43
--------
EID:8c2a 1c3c28c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48ee06
PID XRS! 5.1-
You have made the following sweeping claim:
MS>The Bible has withstood every and any test given to it for
MS>authenticity, accuracy and truthfullness.
Just what tests are these of which you speak? Ones conducted by persons
already believing in the bible? Or ones conducted by independent investigator
s? If the latter, please cite representitive tests, their objectives, their
m
ethodology and where they are to be found.
What is the "authenticity" of the Bible, anyway? That what we have as th
e OT was indeed written by a number of Jewish persons before the time of
Jesus
and what we have as the NT was written by some others beginning thirty years
and more after the death of that worthy? Who disputes this sort of "authentic
ity"? If you have another sort in mind, please define it.
Similarly, what do you mean by accuracy? The book contains a number of
v
erifiable facts of mundane things, like the identity of places and persons.
I
t contains a number of extraordinary assertions that are unverified and
unveri
fiable this side of the grave, as in the assertion that at such a place
and ti
me God appeared to some person and said this, that, and t'other thing.
Now, t
he person in question may very well have believed that this had happened
to hi
m and the report that he so believed may be termed "accurate", but one rather
suspects that you want us to suppose also that the SUBSTANCE of his belief
(th
at there is a god and that it did appear and that it did say "this, that,
and
t'other thing" on the time and place in question). If you indeed wish this
su
bstance of belief to be included under the rubric of "accuracy", please
give y
our readers some reason for sharing your view.
And what do you mean by truthfullness (and how does it differ from "accur
acy")? I doubt that anyone here would dispute the claim that the several
auth
ors of the book really BELIEVED in what they were writing and thus were
tellin
g the truth as they saw it, but then persons claim every year that they
have b
een abducted by spacemen with equally firm conviction. Have you something
mor
e in mind for the term "truthfullness"? If so, please define.
MS>It has not been found
MS>to contain any themeatic contradictions throughout, and the
MS>record of prophecies is unparralled by ANY work in history.
What is a "themeatic contradiction", and how is the absence of such a thi
ng significant? The book contains quite a number of ordinary contradictions,
a partial list of which shall probably be posted here by someone at the
drop o
f a hot button.
Regarding the prophecies, your claim is similar to your claim of "tests".
Have said prophecies been confirmed by believers only or by independent
inve
stigators? When told something like "the aardvark shall devour the gopher
for
its fat, but the lion, gazelle and eagle will make it disgorge its meal
MEANS
that Desert Storm will make Hussein give up Kuwait," believers are likely
to
nod yes, yes, hallelulea! Independent investigators may remain unconvinced,
p
ointing to several hundred equally applicable occasions over the past thousand
years or so. In the case of prophecies supposedly "fulfilled" by the NT,
you
have to overcome the objection that the persons depicted may well have been
d
eliberately acting out certain prophetic scripts that would enhance their
impo
rtance or that post facto accounts of their actions were embellished by
their
authors with details invented to serve that same function.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: T H E T W I L I G H T Z O N E
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:36:08
--------
EID:06d3 1c3c3480
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fc27
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b952571
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- T H E T
W I L
I G H T -- with Don Martin on 23 Jan 94 21:34:
>dm> While he slumbered, his angry wife got a knife from the kitchen,
>dm> sliced off (malicious wounding) his tool (at which moment he awoke
>dm> of a sudden) and ran from the house.
FR> An interesting turn of events. I am reminded of a rather bad
FR> television movie where the poor unfortunate gets his head cut off
FR> and spends the next 400 years haunting his house demanding,
FR> "Where is my head?!"
FR> Enter the remake of the movie with Mister Bobbitt as the primary protag.
Most recent reports have both Bobbitts (I got his name wrong, incidentall
y; it is "John Wayne Bobbitt", not "Dwayne Bobbitt", though I rather suspect
t
hat the simple "Bobbitt" alone will be enough to ease his painful way into
his
tory) negotiating movie deals: expect paired films/TV specials from this
one,
with his version showing a larger specimen excised.
>dm> Waiting for the light a few blocks later, she noticed
>dm> she still had his putz in her hand, so she rolled down
>dm> the window and threw the thing out on the grassy verge
>dm> (littering).
FR> Littering?! Please, oh please don't shatter my high opinion of
FR> the justice system and tell me that you make a little joke!
Joke? Moi?
>dm> A search party was dispatched for the missing member and
>dm> succeeded in finding it before a passing dog made a meal
>dm> (or snack, perhaps) of it.
FR> While I couldn't be sure whether it was tasty or not, a passing
FR> bird might have mistaken it as a rather unusual... Aw, ferget
FR> it. I refuse to continue on the grounds that Moderator may eject me.
HERE?
>dm> The ground was snowy, the day cold: the putz was in
>dm> pristine condition.
FR> Such poetry!
>dm> Mr. B. has been acquitted on the charge of rape;
FR> It doesn't take a psychic to guess that conclusion.
>dm> the trial of Mrs. B. on the charge of malicious
>dm> wounding is ongoing even as I type.
FR> While Mister B. and his trusty dickey are reunited, do I take it
FR> that Madam B. and Mister B. are no longer?
Well, the "trusty" part is in some doubt, nerve regeneration being the di
cey thing it is, but man and member are together again, yes. Man and wife
are
living separately and a divorce, I fear, impends. "Irreconcilible difference
s" may be the grounds.
>dm> It is reported that when the photograph of the penis all
>dm> by its lonesome was circulated through the jury, it made
>dm> the trip in twenty seconds flat, so we know that they are
>dm> on top of the evidence.
FR> "Why yes..." (holding the photograph, turning it around and
FR> around)
For 1.666 seconds per juror--the thing fairly SPUN.
>dm> You must be about the only American not aware of all this.
FR> I am in exile! While I am not given wont to give vent to my sad
FR> state, I was told that there would be palm trees here! And women
FR> in grass skirts!
Hey, linen comes from grass, doesn't it? And to the believer, a pine bec
omes palmed with the laying on of hands. I am surprised that the event
didn't
receive foreign attention, since the male concern with putzes knows no barrie
rs.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Real unconvincing evidenc
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:51:49
--------
EID:d6f0 1c3c3660
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fc72
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c8ef7f9
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Real unconvinci
ng evidenc -- with Don Martin on 25 Jan 94 15:00:
>dm> Sometimes the fundies rub off on me here.
FR> Obituaries, Los Angeles Times, 25/Jan/94
FR> "Get it off me! Get it off me!"
FR> - Don Martin, dead at 35.
Now THAT was some years ago . . .
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:53:12
--------
EID:ba9e 1c3c36a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fe31
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A96864C0
A pregnant pause ensued as Amy Anderson-Coffin shared a conception -- Christia
n Coalition is gr -- with Don Martin on 23 Jan 94 17:30:
AA> Overall, Argento's pretty awful...he sure as hell ain't no Puccini.
AA> Gotta get my subscription to OPERA NEWS renewed so that I can
AA> check out the rest of Washington's season...my own next project
AA> is OTELLO, with the Florentine here in Milw.
Watch out for the black guy if you're a blonde. Valentino got good revie
ws from the local press (hey, what's local for, anyway, particularly when
the
pride of the WORLD PREMIERE runs riot?), and another friend who is an excellen
t pianist with a passion for contemporary American music really liked it.
I s
uppose that this says that the thing is as good as the best contemporary
Ameri
can music. From my point of view, this puts it around -3 on a scale from
1 to
10, Mozart and some others coming in around 10.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:19:40
--------
EID:66e6 1c3c4260
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d49124b
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8d119f
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- God Strikes
L.A
. -- with David Rice on 23 Jan 94 14:17:
>dr> Why does god hate us so much?
FR> It was aiming for __you__! Bad aim, that's all.
God's aim is notoriously poor: he draws a bead on a sinner only to demol
ish an orphanage nearby. Either that, or innocent bystanders REALLY piss
him
off.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 28 Jan 94 09:51:26
--------
EID:374f 1c3c4e60
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4927b1
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8f3d06
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Discovery
of th
e divine -- with Charlie J. Ray on 23 Jan 94 16:26:
FR> No reuctionism was employed in Steves' comment. In the classical
FR> Christian mythologies, it states quite clearly, without the
FR> required interpretation for the removal of an embarrassment, that
FR> those are happy who bash their young ones heads against the rocks.
Sorry, Fredric, but you have Psalm 137 a bit off. It is not the heads of
their own kids that these happy men dash against rocks. It is the heads
of s
omebody ELSE's kids that they do. Makes all the difference in the world,
you
see. If they did their own, they would not qualify as upright men in the
eyes
of their god (unless, of course, their little brats had done something that
R
EALLY torques god's pork, then it would be O.K.)
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:08:17
--------
EID:da06 1c3c5100
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492b04
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c0914ef
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Lightbulbs
& X-
tians -- with Dan Ceppa on 24 Jan 94 11:13:
>dc> ... Get a Michael Jackson doll: You
>dc> don't play with it, it plays with you
FR> Must be under 15 to purchase.
Parent approval not needed--nor recommended. Best of all, don't even TAL
K to them about this neat-o special.
Your doll will be delivered to you in a plain brown wrapper in the boy's
room at school.
Why be a teacher's pet when you can be the real pet of a real SUPERSTAR?
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: YUM!
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:23:40
--------
EID:4e62 1c3c52e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492e24
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A9687160
A pregnant pause ensued as Amy Anderson-Coffin shared a conception -- YUM!
--
with Fredric Rice on 23 Jan 94 18:24:
> FR> * Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
AA> me too...with fries and a large Coke!
You're my kind of woman, Diva!
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:28:07
--------
EID:cef7 1c3c5380
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492f2f
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3a9d96a5
A pregnant pause ensued as Joshua Lee shared a conception -- Discipleship
-- w
ith David Rice on 22 Jan 94 05:11:
JL> (I remember seeing this thread back before my hiatus six months ago!)
It is HoleySmoke's very own hiatal hernia?
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:30:45
--------
EID:3d4e 1c3c53c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d493065
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d43f87f
A pregnant pause ensued as Rob Bamford shared a conception -- Christian
Coalit
ion is gr -- with Quentin Fai on 23 Jan 94 19:29:
RB> "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of America,
RB> and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD,
RB> indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all." -- This is
RB> something to fight for!!!
You are aware, I presume, that the words "under God" were added in 1954.
The men who defeated Hitler found that "one nation, indivisible, with liberty
and justice for all," was quite enough to fight for.
As do I.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:38:06
--------
EID:8925 1c3c54c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4931f6
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e42f78
A pregnant pause ensued as Dan Lafferty shared a conception -- Steve's PR
for
your relig -- with Fredric Rice on 25 Jan 94 21:41:
DL> Perhalps you should start by not intentionally insulting my beliefs.
And just how do you propose that anyone insult your beliefs UNINTENTIONAL
LY? Insults require intention; I presume that you would not take such offense
at the same words from a person ignorant of your creed.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Dan flies washing machine; film at eleven
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:19:02
--------
EID:c6d2 1c3d5a60
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c9679
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>It's a false security to believe ANYTHING.
>
> DS>Who's the fundy now?
>
> ROFL!
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Ditto.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Stepped right in the trap...
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:20:03
--------
EID:ab65 1c3d5a80
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967a
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> Better reread this thread, Dan. Then you may as well pack it up and go
> home; you've been publicly busted.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, I haven't. You seem eager to find a way to shut me up...not used to
being
wrong?
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Tag: PR_CULTS was Added.
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:20:04
--------
EID:67d6 1c3d5a80
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967b
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>Christians fighting Christians...hehehe...
>
> Yo, Dan. They've been at it for nearly 2000 years.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Good point... :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:22:05
--------
EID:7393 1c3d5ac0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967c
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> No not-believer in this forum says that deities do not exist, Dan.
> They simply
> do not believe in the thousands of deities. Or fairies. Or any
> invisible superfriend. The not-believers are quire correct in stating
> that there is no evidence for these thousands of deities yet no one has
> tried to concoct a "theory" -- religious or otherwise.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
So you're saying that they don't believe or disbelieve in gods by definition,
they just don't believe in the gods that have been thought up?
Sounds like selective disbelief to me... "Well, there might be a god, but
no
one has found 'em yet..."
Yeah.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Trent Hall
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Ark hoax
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:48:00
--------
EID:d659 1c3d5600
MSGID: 1:123/67 2d4a855a
TH> Gee, Shelby... How did you go about measuring the
SS> amount of water in the
TH> hydrosphere?
SS> Gee, Trent, there are all these gosh-awful disciplines
You forget that there is -land- under the water in at least several locations.
.. and not all at the same depth/elevation...
This is at least one assumption that is pretty difficult to ascertain.
SS> known as mathematics
SS> and science, driven by a bunch of ruthless atheists,
SS> for sure. The earth is
SS> roughly a sphere and we can calculate the volume of a sphere, Trent,
even
Such as Sir Hoyle?
SS> without the use of calculus. The bible said that all
SS> the highest mountains
SS> were covered (that's what the bible said and we know
SS> that the bible wouldn't lie...
I'm glad to see you realize this 8'>
SS> lie, would it Trent?), so we can just extend the radius of the existing
SS> sphere up to the top of Mt. Everest + 20 feet ( that's what the bible
say
s
SS> and we know that the bible wouldn't lie, would it Trent?) and we get
the
SS> new projected sphere of the earth (hint: about another six miles).
There you go again !!! Can you prove that Mt. Everest is the same height
now
as before the Flood? Another one of your shaky assumptions. Anyone ever
t
ell you about assume-ing? BTW the reference is Genesis 7:19-20.
In ad
dition, the reference in Gen. 7:11 (to be convenient -g-) indicates that
the "
fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were
ope
ned." Now, if a great deal of water came up from underground, perhaps it
is c
onceivable, even to an athiest, that the ground might sink. Consider the
sink
holes in Florida, for instance. And even an athiest is probably able to
reco
gnize that if the God they deny is able to create the universe, then moving
a
large quantity of water would be no great challenge.
But of course that is one consideration that an athiest rejects out of hand
as
not empirically proven and therefore not true. Reference my earlier question
: Is a fact a "fact" prior to evidence on its behalf being presented? Or
does
a "fact" only become a "fact" after some human being presents evidence to
anot
her human being that that human 'bean' accepts as valid reasonable evidence
an
d conclusion as to the veracity of the "fact?" Seems you have conjured
up a H
indu-style "maya" concept of reality when you throw out the possibility
of abs
olute truth absent from human proof/approval.
SS> the volume of the original sphere and the remainder is the volume of
SS> the ADDITIONAL water (another hint: it's a huge amount of water.
SS> This is how science works, Trent. Are you starting to see now why there
No argument. It -was- a huge amount of water. And I did very well in high
s
chool and college science and physics classes, thank you.
SS> is a HUGE problem with the flood? It's a lie, it didn't happen. It
SS> couldn't happen.
Unless a supernatural God did it. And didn't tell -all- of the details.
And
therein lies the biggest difference in our perspective. I allow for the
exist
ence of God in the equation. You apparently do not. Does it follow that
you
think the universe created itself?
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: FundieBusters Inc. *Online Ordination $5.00* (1:123/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 123/67 44 301 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:36:07
--------
EID:c76c 1c3d3480
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:
Marty Leipzig
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Johnny Mckinney <=-
ML> Johnny Mckinney, who unwinds by reading books on evolution, said to
ML> All:
JM> I have never read a book on evolution
That is quite obvious. It is also obvious that you can't
understand a bit of wordplay.
JM> I think the non-believers who respond to this echo are lured by the
JM> Holy Spirit to satisfy their deep down hunger to come to Christ.
ML> Whoowhee! Did you ever dial up a wrong number. No one, other
ML> than the fundies intent on spreading their word; like so much
ML> manure, to "every living creature"; are lured to this echo.
ML> We "heathens" are here, on the other hand, to lend a dose of
ML> logic and rationalism to their plaintive whinings.
JM> I never once said you was a "heathen", Marty
That would be "...said you _were_ a "heathen"..." Besides, your
fundy brethren have already done that for us countless times.
JM> They are afraid to fully commit to HIM and change their lifestyles.
ML> Not at all. They are instead able to stand on their own two
ML> feet and go toe-to-toe with reality without the need of some
ML> illusory cosmic crutch.
JM> None-the-less he's helping you stand on your own two feet
Baloney. I am the only one responsible for what I do, how I do
it and how I face reality. I have absolutely no need for some
supernatural overseer.
ML> What we are afraid of is the wanton ignorance and hatred spread
ML> in the name of various deities. We face that fear head on and
ML> wrestle it into submission with the step-over toe-hold of cold
ML> reason and the body-slam of logic.
JM> No, I'm not a fundy.
ML> Quack...qauck...quack...funny, you sound like one.
JM> Cute
Zing! And another one sails clear over Johnny's head...
JM> I don't like to debate either.
ML> And please don't throw me in that echo, massa.
JM> What?
Think, Br'er Fundy, think.
JM> These are just
JM> my sincere observations. I respect every non-believers right not
JM> to believe.
ML> How very magnanimous. We, as a group, also respect the right of
ML> believers to not only believe; but shout it to all that will
ML> listen...shout it from the rooftops, shout it in the
ML> church...but keep it out of public education and don't get
ML> pissed when someone laughs out loud in the face of your sincere
ML> beliefs.
JM> I'm not angry. Just want to contribute to the debate
By all means, please do. But be forewarned, this is not the
"Sweetness and Light Echo".
Duck and cover...
ML> "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh". -
ML> R. Heinlein
JM> They in turn should also respect believers.
ML> Respect is not demanded, but rather earned. Waving deities
ML> about in the face of reason is not exactly the best way to earn
ML> such said respect.
JM> Respect is a two way street
Damn straight. Neither side gets it because they demand it.
Respect must be earned.
JM> Believers
JM> are instructed to pass on and spread "THE Good News." We often are
JM> criticized for this but we are use to it.
ML> Good. Then you're also used to being regarded as an idiot.
JM> Is it really necessary to call me an idiot, Marty? I just want
JM> to debate religion like rational human beings ;)
10^3 pardons. I publicly apologize for insinuating that you
were an idiot. But then again, you immediately follow with the
terms "religion" and "rational" in the same sentence...
JM> ! Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
No kidding? Hmmmm...another one jumps into the fray...
... To walk on water, you have to know where the rocks are.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:51:10
--------
EID:dde9 1c3d7660
DR> Yes, this bogus claim has been floating about for a few years. It
DR> was introduced by the Evangelical Christian organization called Jack
DR> Chick Publications, which has ties to neo-Nazi Christian churches
DR> such as Identity Group.
No shit?
There's a tie between Jack (stupid little comics for Jesus) Chick and
the 'Christian Identity Movement' (Klansmen for Khrist)?
Do you any references or material on this? I gotta read up on this.
(It's always fun whenever I learn that two groups on my 'Enemies List'
have been sleeping in the same bed together.)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30873/2 106/9788 888 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in The Morality Games
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:04:10
--------
EID:0eee 1c3d5080
Marilyn Burge, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Styx Allum
MB> On (24 Jan 94) Styx Allum wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SA> > FR> Also, what's the fastest land animal on Earth?
SA>
SA> > The cheetah.
SA>
SA> 1.) Man (in a jet propelled land-cruiser)
SA>
SA> 2.) An Italian virgin.
SA>
SA> > ... Baroque: When you are out of Monet.
SA>
SA> Auuuuugh! I'm dying... Consider that work of art as stolen.
MB> Then you'll probably like this one too:
MB> Innuendo: An Italian homosexual.
Bigotry: An Italian Sequoia.
Bigamist: A large fog in Venice.
Stop me before I tell you about Italian snow tyres...
... Gone Chopin...Be Bach in a minuet. Hmm...where's my Lizst?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: More Hell Fire and Napalm
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:03:13
--------
EID:c050 1c3d6860
Marilyn Burge, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> Martin Goldberg, who thought juvenile water was kid stuff,said to
ML> Marty Leipzig:
ML>
ML> ML> Evidently, his money and wallet are much more important to
ML> ML> than his life. Ah, well. It appears that the fundies don't
ML> ML> to worry about this life because they've wasted it in the
ML> ML> fervent, and illusory, hope of the next.
ML>
ML> MG> It reminds me of the old Jack Benny routine where the thief
ML> sticks a
ML> MG> gun into hsi ribs and says "Your money or your life". Jack
ML> stands
ML> MG> there a second and says "I'm THINKING about it"
ML>
ML> Wasn't it also Jack who said: "I got a poodle for my wife. It
ML> was a hell of a good trade."?
MB> That sounds more like Lenny Bruce. But I couldn't find the quote
MB> anywhere in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations," so I'm only guessing.
My boss, whilst dropping eves over my shoulder, remarked that
it was a Dangerfieldianism, sp. Rodney.
... Madness takes it's toll. Please have exact change.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: STILL SEEING CREATIONIST?
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:02:45
--------
EID:9b46 1c3d4040
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Ric
e
MG> Mike Brown who won the Nobel for Medicine in 1987 has been known to
MG> get up and leave in disgust when REAL scientists are lecturing. I
MG> wonder what he would do to a guy like Gish.
Something similar to what a _Deinonychus_ would do to a poodle.
... ? ! (You may not get it, but they're howling in Athens.)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:07:00
--------
EID:a7cd 1c3d40e0
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
ML> Nope. CH3CH2OH + H2O and various flavorings (peat moss and
ML> acid for some).
MG> Only the bourbon needs the dilution of whater to kill the taste.
Oh, so you drink straight 200 proof CH3CH2OH?
Try that with a lit Upmann's...
... A woman drove me to drink. I never properly thanked her.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:08:19
--------
EID:e864 1c3d4100
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Ric
e
DC>> + Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>> + Origin: Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>> + Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away for
ML>> Jeeeeeesus!
mg>> + Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
FR> + Origin: MALARIA, NETWORK! SHIVERING YELLOW SHITS FOR JESUS!
MG> +Origin: SWISS NETWORK!: CHEESES FOR JESUS
+Origin: CORYZA NETWORK! WHEEZES AND SNEEZES FOR JESUS!
... A jug warms the soul and places a smile in the heart.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Bombing runs: aftermath of a Mexican dinner.
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:11:44
--------
EID:7b6d 1c3d4160
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
MG>> "Hydrocyanic"=Prussic Acid or wht is commonly known as
MG>> cyanide gas. Not enough of it aroudn these days.
ML> Not enough HCN? We must work to close this "Cyanide Gap"!
MG> I plan to start tomorrow. I'm going to gas the cat.
Drat. I can't do that. I just had my wife's cat shellacked.
ML> My point exactly. But then again, you don't get nitro
ML> when the stuff is absorbed in keiselghur.
MG> I thought it was the calcium carbonate that gave the headaches.
Nope. Nitro...nitro and fundies...Hmmmm...
... Hypocrisy is the Vaseline of social intercourse.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:53:10
--------
EID:b1ef 1c3d66a0
Dan Lafferty, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> DL> Have you ever visited or even seen Pluto...
ML> Visited? No. Seen? Yes. At the JPL there is an
ML> astounding amount
ML> of imagery of this particular body and its companion
ML> Charon.
DL> That is not seeing it first hand.
But looking through the Kitt Peak telescope is, and seeing the
imagery taken from that same telescope is as well. Still,
that's not the point. One does not need to "see" the core of
the Earth, nor the bottom of the sea nor other planets as a
prerequisite for their existence; all you need to do is analyze
the evidence.
DL> You are not following the
DL> conversation very well: it was mentioned that picture &etc can be
DL> faked.
Yes, pictures can be faked. These were not.
DL> All you have for proof is their say so that it is there,
Bullshit. Science is much more than mere "say so". Celestial
mechanics and physics give not a hoot for "say so".
DL> you
DL> have not seen it for yourself.
Yes, I have.
DL> Why do you maintain such a double
DL> standard?
I do not. Trot out some physical evidence of your supernatural
buddies, and we'll scrutinize that just as closely.
... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:56:35
--------
EID:b1ef 1c3d6700
Dan Lafferty, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> DL> Then how do you KNOW it
ML> DL> exists?
ML> By something with which you are totally unfamiliar:
ML> science.
ML> Celestial mechanics, physics and astronomy, to name but
ML> a few.
DL> Funny,
Yep. You fundies are loads of yuks.
DL> I do not recall your saying that you had a PHD in ANY of those
DL> fields.
But I do hold a PhD in Geology and am quite familiar with these
scientific fields.
DL> BTW Playing the opposing POV for all it is worth does not
DL> indicate lack of understanding.
But you do it so well it is hard to differentiate that you are
"playing". Is it real or is it an act?
DL> Please keep your insults to yourself.
Push off, kneebiter. Don't like to read insults? Then quit posting
intelligence-insulting messages.
ML> DL> All those pictures might just be a fabrication of the
ML> DL> scientific community for the sake of recieving grants that they
might
ML> DL> keep their jobs.
ML> Then again, they might not. Why is it that you fundies
ML> will so
ML> readily accept something so non-evidenced as some sort
ML> of
ML> supernatural being(s), yet so readily disregard cold,
ML> hard
ML> scientific fact?
DL> My, my, we are on the defensive aren't we?
Not at all. "Global scientific conspiracy" nonsense just
exasperates me.
DL> More ad-homonims,
That's "ad hominem". I see nothing there that could be
considered an attack, but rather statement of fact.
DL> assumptions, and a little rudeness thrown in for good measure!
Welcome, welcome, welcome to HolySmoke. This ain't your Hearts
and Flowers Echo, chum.
DL> I am
DL> not a fundie,
Quack, quack, quack...
DL> kindly take your unsuported alegations to the toilet with
DL> your verbal diarhea.
Kindly remove your head from your rectum and post something with
substance.
ML> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
DL> Tell me something: Did protrons, nuetrons, and electrons exist when
DL> the atom was thought to be the most basic building block of matter?
I take this to be a rhetorical question...
DL> Did the atom exist when fire, air, water, and earth were thought to
be
DL> the most basic builing blocks of matter?
And another...
DL> Was plutonium any less radio
DL> active before they knew what that meant?
Yet another...
DL> Scientific "fact" is based
DL> on the CURRENT understanding of the CURENTLY measurable physical
DL> phenomina.
Oh, horseshit. The fact that atoms are composed of sub-atomic
particles was no less a fact before they were discovered. In
fact, facts do not change; science, however, does.
DL> Tell me, how do my dreams predict the future?
They do not. Next.
DL> That can not be
DL> measured,
"That" what? Dreams? EEG readings record REM sleep and beta
brain wave patterns during dream sleep.
DL> nor will you accept it as fact, based on your current narrow
DL> minded approach.
What? That your dreams predict the future? Out of the way boy,
this ain't the "National Enquirer Echo".
ML> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
Whoa. Deja vu...
DL> Why was I then IMPELLED to interpret a friend's dream?
Who knows? What impels people who hear voices in their head to
go out and kill, rape or proselytize? I'm a geologist, not a
psychiatrist.
DL> I can give my
DL> opinion on things any time, but I was liturally impelled to continue
DL> explaining it to her until she understood.
Or until she told you to take your alleged psychical abilities
and piss off...
... You tend to think in simple, clear terms that are wrong.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:04:04
--------
EID:f147 1c3d6880
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0daa17
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First John Windsor Said: ]-----
> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Because historically, they're the most discriminitory (the Crusades, etc),
and
they are the most predominant group in the world today... And it does involv
e the level of faith in something that seems, to the non-religious, as a
book
of fairy tales.
Just my personal insight. :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Alan Hess
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:45:06
--------
EID:f910 1c3d95a0
MSGID: 1:261/1000 3b014c8a
REPLY: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
In a missive of John Pierce (1:123/2)
writes to All:
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
Have you ever called the Bluff City bbs? You sound like one of the many
pseud
onyms of the inbred that calls there.
JP> (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
Quoting mythology doesn't impress anyone. We know you're just jealous because
even brain-dead Jews are smarter than you.
Apollo rules!
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Nerve Center: Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 261/1000 1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Sunjester
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:55:00
--------
EID:6c45 1c3d6ee0
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94eb8
REPLY: 1:387/57.0 2d489326
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter addressed to ALL on this echo. I have received
many messages and I'll respond with a general letter.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:56:00
--------
EID:d8a6 1c3d6f00
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94efa
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3adba376
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter adressed to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:57:00
--------
EID:37c0 1c3d6f20
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f22
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d8b0e58
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter adressed to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Christianity
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:293c 1c3d6f40
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f4c
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Drew Webber
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:59:00
--------
EID:0760 1c3d6f60
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f82
REPLY: 1:272/120.0 2d46f5bb
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
See my general letter addressed to ALL on this echo...
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: All
Sub: A response...
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:09:00
--------
EID:1eef 1c3d7120
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e951f8
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
This letter is in response to many messages I've recently received.
I hope you don't feel that I'm attempting to "beat a Bible over your head".
I
don't feel arrogant towards you in any way... and I certainly don't condemn
any of you.
Again, I'll agree with all of you who said that the crusades were a tragedy.
But I feel that they were done in the name of a civil/state religion, rather
than genuine Christianity.
Regarding death in the Bible, God prohibited David from building His temple
b
ecause of the David's bloodshed... indeed, David had killed many.
I'm almost out of time, but I hope to continue this discussion soon.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: N
Sub: message
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:12:00
--------
EID:5c77 1c3d7180
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e952a6
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
See my message to "all" on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: David Worrell
Sub: Re: Playing by the rules.
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:53:19
--------
EID:b833 1c3c66a0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499492
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
RT> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony, YHWH has made Himself known to me.
RT> I say
RT> He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to corroborate
RT> this
RT> witness certainly enough to establish a _ground for belief_. By
RT> definition this is evidence.
DW>
DW> For many years most people believed the Earth was flat. I'm sure most
DW> of them would have testified to the fact that the Earth was actually
DW> flat.
I imagine some would have attempted to present evidence to that effect.
The same way some were attempting to present _old knowledge_ evidence
concerning the earth's roundness, to the then established establishment.
So what? What does that have to do with the definition of evidence?
DW> By your definition of "evidence", this must mean that the Earth
DW> actually was flat,
Your thinking is suffering from a short circuit, David. Evidence is part
of
a process. In our enlightened _state_, it is presented under the rules
of a
judicial proceedure to a _court_ for a ruling. The rules insist that the
judgement be made by individuals who are as impartial, unprejudice and
equitable as possible. They should also be capable of understanding the
evidence being ruled on.
I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
Lord, resulting in witness corroborated,(bible defined) life changes,
over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial,
unprejudice and equitable court. If such a court had made a finding,
showing cause for deception resulting in an all encompassing delusion,
(in itself showing a mighty power at work, perhaps grounds for appeal),
this court might suggest future evidence be treated as evidence of delusion.
To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
You may not _like_ the evidence, it may make you _upset_, you may feel
there is just not enough BUT you are incorrect when you say _there
is NO evidence_. Do you grasp my argument?
DW> ... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
but also be not unrighteous overmuch....Mat 5:20
For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case
enter into the kingdom of heaven.
... and on earth peace to men of good will....
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 221/950 500 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: "Vapor Canapy" nonsense
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:36:50
--------
EID:0616 1c3c6c80
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499493
-=> Quoting David Rice to All <=-
> I've heard one logical explanation why people lived hundreds of
> years before the flood (the Bibles says that after the flood an
> average life was reduced to about 70 years.) The first Chapter
> of Genesis indicates that God in his six creative days (each
> creative day can be millions of years long) created the water
> below and above. The water above means there was a very thick
> cloud layer covering the earth in permanence (this cloud layer
> provided the waters for the flood).
DR>
DR> We seem to have another pupil of the Michael Courtney school of
DR> atmospheric physics. First, clouds and water vapor are far less
DR> dense than liquid water. In the case of water vapor at (say) 25 C
DR> and 1 atmosphere pressure, liquid water is more dense than water
DR> vapor by a factor of 1370. To get enough water to flood the Earth to
DR> 6 miles deep (the height of Mt. Everest, plus a little more for good
DR> measure), you'd need a vapor layer roughly 1370x as deep as that 6
DR> miles, or 8200 miles. Fat chance. Actually, this does neglect the
Gen. 7:11...In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the second month, the
seventeenth day of the month, the same day were ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF
THE GREAT DEEP broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Seems water above and water below became water in the middle.
... and on earth, peace among men of good will...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 221/950 500 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: George Wells
Sub: Re: GOD HAS LEFT
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:19:54
--------
EID:64b1 1c3c7260
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499494
-=> Quoting George Wells to All <=-
GW> I am new to this echo and am not fully versed in it's rules, etc, but
GW> wish to offer my opinion of the "Christian God" that I beleive.
GW> I am an Anglican, and do have a beleif that at one time, yes, there
GW> was a "God" that watched over, and guided people in the very early
GW> years of mankind. However, I also beleive that soon after his son
GW> departed from this world, that he no longer watched over us, and does
GW> not to this day.
GW> I do not post this to upset anyone, nor do I expect to be flamed
GW> and/or treated harshly for my opinions. Just sharing my thoughts, that
GW> is all.
GW> George
Thats very nice George, but heresy is heresy and deserves wee bit of warmth!
I was going to hammer you, but listen, take courage He will return.
I pray the Lord will convince you of his concern for you.
Love in Jesus RT
... ...you have been with me from the beginning
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 221/950 500 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Re: too many question marks?
Date: 28 Jan 94 16:46:24
--------
EID:d5e4 1c3c85c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
-=> Quoting Derek Clayton to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
RT> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony, YHWH has made Himself known to me.
I
RT> say He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to corroborate
th
is
RT> witness certainly enough to establish a _ground for belief_. By
RT> definition this is evidence.
DC>
DC> But is this evidence of God or is it evidence of delusion?
Evidence is part of a process. In our enlightened age it is presented under
judicial proceedure to a _court_ for a ruling. The rules insist that the
judgement be made by individuals who are as impartial, unprejudice and
equitable as possible. They must also be capable of understanding
the evidence being ruled on.
I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial _court_.
If such a gathering had made a finding, showing CAUSE for deception
resulting in an all encompassing delusion, I could understand their
recommending all future evidence be treated as evidence of delusion.
To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
DC> Ancient Greeks were just as adamant in their belief that Zeus et. al.
DC> were real. Were they right? Goths were sure that Odin et. al. were
real.
DC> Were they right?
Are you suggesting they were wrong? Are you suggesting I am qualified to
_judge_ this matter? Are you suggesting you want to spend time on this
topic? Are you suggesting I can figure out some kind of connection between
this and my topic?
DC> Kids believe in Santa Claus, and get that warm,
DC> fuzzy feeling at the thought of getting presents (eternal
DC> life?...hmmm). Are they right?
Please refer to my reply to Wayne Michaels, Jan. 26th..
DC> Personal revelation has been experienced by every possible believer,
DC> for every possible belief.
Do you really think so? Are you in a position to be privy to this
information? How can anyone know what EVERY believer of every faith has
experienced? Is this suposed to lessen the evidence I am discussing?
DC> To paraphrase a tagline I once saw : this revelation illustrates
DC> the mystery of man, rather than the mystery of gods.
No offence but I would rather rely on the wisdom of the Bible. (Which
revelation does illustrate the mystery of the gods?)
DC> Perhaps, you'd like to describe how God has revealed himself to you?
There is nothing particularly special about my testimony, it's the same
as
millions of others. Man asks to meet God, God meets man. Man changes. Love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control become important
to the man. The strength of the evidence is in the number of similar
testimonies available and the length of time this has been happening.
... thank you Lord, your will not mine...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 221/950 500 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Bible Disproves Monotheism?
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:20:58
--------
EID:44ab 1c3d9280
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4aa927
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d4946dc
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Chuck:
In a msg of , Chuck Dubman writes to All:
CD> Remember what the Big G said when he was told Adam and his main squeeze
a
te
CD> of the Tree of Knowledge? Something along the lines of, "They have
becom
e
CD> as one of the GODS. They have become one of US." Note carefully the
There's similar babble at the tower of babel.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Shut 'em down... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Humanism
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:54:03
--------
EID:1087 047672d3
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5335
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones <=-
MB> As for whether you agree with any of them or not, I could care less,
MB> quite frankly. . . .
MB> . . . Feel better now? Good.
A few days ago you were complaining, falsely, that I had ignored your
previous post of humanist principles. Now you're complaining because I
responded. It appears you are afraid of having your principles scrutinized,
intent on being hostile to me, or both.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Amen!
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:59:04
--------
EID:1087 047672d4
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5336
-=> Quoting Jerry Faust to Don Martin <=-
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays, lesbians,
JF> etc.
Amen, Jerry! Welcome to this corner of Hell, and good luck!
Yours in Christ,
Jesse
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:37:09
--------
EID:7c26 1c3c7ca0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d497966
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e524d4
A pregnant pause ensued as Jerry Faust shared a conception -- ASSURANCE
-- wit
h Don Martin on 26 Jan 94 10:08:
>DM> "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
>DM> And dashes them against the rock!"
JF> In context, these words were penned following the Babylonian
JF> captivity of Jews around the sixth century B.C. These words were
JF> probably penned in response to the situation.
Revenge IS a noble motive in a Godly people, is it not?
JF> As one Bible
JF> commentator puts it, the action described above clearly falls
JF> below ethical standards, yet it might have been a result of the
JF> anger felt when the Babylonians destroyed the Jewish Temple and
JF> exiled these Jews. Sort of like yelling at someone who pulls in
JF> front of you on the freeway without a blinker, etc.; you don't
JF> literally mean "I'll kill you" yet you said it as an emotional response.
And the Old Testament is quite devoid of real killing, of rounding up the
girl children for screwing or selling into slavery--all those words presumabl
y recording such filth are just the vengeful fantasies of a mild-mannered
peop
le out to have a good time.
You really BELIEVE this "Bible commentator"? If so, I have a piece of Fl
oridian real estate you may be interested in. There is a nice restaurant
on i
t, haunted by a ghostly figure atop the salad bar.
>DM> that the infants are only steenkin', brown-skinned li'l
>DM> Babylonians:
JF> God never condones violence against any infants.
Really? Then why does His Inspired Word not say something like "Miserabl
e is he who dashes the head of ANY infant upon a rock"? He left in "happy",
h
e gets to live with it.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:46:08
--------
EID:785e 1c3c7dc0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d497b3e
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3adbb24a
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- Homosexualit
y -- with Don Martin on 26 Jan 94 22:17:
MG> Yeah....who was the lady....oh, yeah, Nell Gwynn. She ended up
MG> in Australia or somesuch with her outlaw husband. She was
MG> supposed to have had it...if she was a real figure.
Nell Gwynn was indeed a real figure and quite a character. She was the
m
istress of Charles II during troubled times when Chuck was suspected of
having
Popish leanings. When her carriage was stopped by an anti-papist mob (fundie
s willing to kill persons holding views different from their own are NOT
a twe
ntieth century invention), she stuck her head out of the window and cried,
"pr
ay, let me pass, good people. 'Tis I, Nell Gwynn, the PROTESTANT whore!.
The
crowd cheered and parted.
MG> Other famous syphilis carriers...
MG> 1. Ivan the Terrible
MG> 2. Al Capone
MG> 3. Beethoven.
Let us not forget George Washington, whose mahoganny choppers replaced te
eth probably lost to the mercury cure. Beethoven's deafness I have heard
was
possibly the result of congenital syphilis, but he may well have picked
up his
own along the way, sopranos being what they were (and are, if you're lucky).
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30027/37 109/519 50 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Re: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:27:05
--------
EID:49f1 1c3d9b60
JF> In regard to the flood, death has never been a part of
JF> God's original intent for humanity. Moses did proclaim
JF> the coming rain for many years.
Moses?!
Gosh... my secular uninspired understanding of the story was that
Moses came AFTER the flood by at least a small handfull of centuries.
Sure glad you know your Bible there....
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30873/2 106/9788 888 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:23:59
--------
EID:2f99 1c3daae0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02bf89
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d870dc3
mg>> fundies like to interject here simply does not exist. Too
mg>> bad that the fundy in question is not likely to.
FR> I have learned _some_ of what you've talked about. And doubtless
FR> we'll see the same claim many more times to further hone the
FR> debunk skills.
I have, this very day, areafixed skeptic, atheist, and evolution from Steve
Q.
Now I'll have three times the fun.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Santa and eight flying reindeer
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:36:30
--------
EID:04b1 1c3dac80
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02df01
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d46d4b5
RT>>MG> Can you provide some?
WM>> Millions of children believe in Santa Claus and will give
WM>> you "testimonies" that he exists because they got presents
WM>> from him. So, you believe in Santa Claus?
RT> Let me get this straight, a million children present evidence, in
RT> the form of sworn testimony, concerning their belief in the
RT> existence of Santa Claus. I am asked to weigh this evidence
RT> and present my finding (judgement). Upon examination I cannot
RT> find sufficient evidence to substantiate that Santa exists in
RT> the physical realm (since I have conflicting evidence on
RT> hand in the form of sworn testimonies from parents; stating
RT> that they deliberately deceived their children with stories
RT> and signs in the snow)! I do find a lot of evidence that hard
RT> hearts are touched and _something_ happens when Christmas
RT> draws near. So what, what does this have to do with MG's
RT> assertion that _there is NO evidence_? Their sworn testimony
RT> is evidence.
And here is MG back again. You have sidestepped the issue mightily. The
fact
that parents have fooled their kids into believeing in Santa makes him no
mor
e real. The fact that millions have been fooled into thinking there is
a god,
makes that god no more real than Santa.
There is NO evidence for god. Can you provide some?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:45:12
--------
EID:af7e 1c3dada0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02f455
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e638ba
DL> That is not seeing it first hand. You are not following the
DL> conversation very well: it was mentioned that picture &etc can be
DL> faked. All you have for proof is their say so that it is
DL> there, you have not seen it for yourself. Why do you
DL> maintain such a double standard?
You are treading on dangerously thin ice here. I believe that you know
it, as
well. The many different images of Pluto or of anything very far away or
ver
y small, preventing first hand ovservation, could not be faked. There would
b
e too many discrepancies. It would be a difficult feat to fake a star or
a pl
anet.
god, ont he other hand, had left no trace. No photo, no natural evidence,
not
hing.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:48:53
--------
EID:af7e 1c3dae00
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02fa76
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e63d02
DL> Tell me something: Did protrons, nuetrons, and electrons exist
DL> when the atom was thought to be the most basic building block of
DL> matter? Did the atom exist when fire, air, water, and earth were
DL> thought to be the most basic builing blocks of matter? Was
DL> plutonium any less radio active before they knew what that meant?
DL> Scientific "fact" is based on the CURRENT understanding of
DL> theCURENTLY measurable physical phenomina.
Tell me something: Was the evidence for Pluto faked or is it the wild and
fanc
iful dreams of some clown trying to get an edge in ofr evidence of his deity?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: AIDS and safe sex
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:51:02
--------
EID:fcc3 1c3dae60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b031050
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d47f6a1
MG>> unprotected sex with multiple parnters. Disease free,
MG>> monogamous homosexual couples will not get infected through
MG>> their sex acts.
RT>
LZ>> rest get it because they went out and got it. Homosexuality
LZ>> and perverson hurts poeple one way or anoter.
MG>> Skip the bible quotes for evidence of anything. Let's hear
MG>> if you hve some really authoratative evidence for this
MG>> stuff.
RT> Quoting R. Noble, Prof. of Med. U of Kentucky College of Med.
RT> Lexington KY Newsweek, Apr 1 1991....._What do I know about
RT> all this? I'm an infectious diseases physician and an AIDS
RT> doctor to the poor. Passing out condoms to teenagers is like
RT> issuing them squirt guns for a four alarm blaze. Condoms
RT> just don't hack it. We should stop kidding ourselves._
RT> Header was _There's No Safe Sex_.
This, admittedly, is much better, but it does nto address the issue.
1. I say that ANY mongamous sex will not result in HIV transmission by
a sexu
ally transmitted means.
2. You come back with some nonsense about homosexulas spreading AIDS like
I n
ever said anything. then you quote your bible or at least comment from
it.
3. I tell you not to quote the bible, so...
4. You quot ea doctor about teens getting condoms.
While I do not agree with the doctor either (I have for many owrked int
he fie
ld of sexually tranmitted diseases myself, mostly in Syphilis and HIV) it
does
nto address the issue at hand. To wit:
"Do you believe that monogamous homosexual relationships spread HIV?"
But to further debunk this.....
RT> _For the first ten years of the spreading of the AIDS virus,
RT> according to Harvard's specialists, AIDS had not been caught
RT> through heterosexualizing. But alas, now there is a new form
This is wrong. Most of the African continent's HIV cases are transmitted
hete
rsexually. Many of them in the US are. HIV is an infedction that is transmit
ted by mucuous membrane deposition and later contamination of the blood
stream
. Homosexula activity is better at this, but hetero definitly transmits
the b
ug as well.
RT> 15/93) comes the devistating news of a massive outbreak of a
RT> deadly mutant strain of AIDS which is not caused by the HIV
RT> virus. This one being spread through both homosexual and
RT> heterosexual sex. Consequently whereas a year ago experts
Patently false. HIV is known to alter it's "immune epitopes" which is one
rea
son that it is so difficult to provide and effective vaccine. But the virus
i
tself is little changed.
RT> were predicting that seven years from now, an estimated 40
RT> million would have contracted AIDS, now the estimate is up
RT> to 100 million and rising._
Wrong again. The official CDC report "Morbibdity and MOrtality" shows stats
t
hat indicate an imminent decrease int he number of new cases int he US over
th
e next ten years.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:01:35
--------
EID:6b77 1c3db020
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0318a5
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496187
MG>> Other famous syphilis carriers...
MG>> 1. Ivan the Terrible
MG>> 2. Al Capone
MG>> 3. Beethoven.
SQ> Don't forget Henry VIII. :)
It's odd, but they are not that sure. Henry dounfd sd ig hre hsf iyt, but
som
e diseases leave like pathologies. Medicine has never been an exact scinece,
but in those days it was mreo alchemy than anythign else. He may actually
hav
e died of tuberculosis.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Stewart Harris
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:03:00
--------
EID:2462 1c3db060
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b031a58
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496182
SH>>>In 1975 I have a dream.
SQ> Maybe someone will shoot him...we know what happened to the last
SQ> guy who said
SQ> that.
Bad form. We don't want to be seen as fundies with a gun in their hand
for th
e lord.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Educated?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:11:26
--------
EID:35e1 1c3db160
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b032dc2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d49609d
DR> I asked the Vietnamise sandwich store person at The Sandwich Bag
DR> if he would make for me a cat sandwich on rye. He said "Come
DR> back in two days and I'll have it ready." Hummmmmm.
Those foriegn clowns can't get anything right.
I bet he puts it on white....
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Jess' DWI
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:13:34
--------
EID:77cb 1c3db1a0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0336e7
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496058
MG>> The police asked him his name, and between screams he says it
MG>> was "Jesus Christ". From the screams we heard over the police
MG>> radio, it sounded as if they were nailing him back up on the
MG>> cross. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.....
DR> Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, and
DR> often don't have to pay for that failure. This person did--- he's
DR> actually lucky for the lesson.
DR> Monday afternoon I went to fetch a sandwich at the shandwich
^^^^^^^^^
This is what you get for driving drunk and trying to buy cat sandwiches
on rye
.
People are just people, but I thought that it was funny that this drunk
that t
ore upe about half a dozen cars thought he was actually the tenative savior
of
the planet. Were I too get drunk, I'd probably tell the cops that I was
Moth
er Teresa or something.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:17:26
--------
EID:329a 1c3db220
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b033ca2
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e6ba24
JF> Who says the crusades were "Christian"? I feel they were a
The Crusaders did.
JF> In regard to the flood, death has never been a part of God's
JF> original intent for humanity. Moses did proclaim the coming rain
JF> for many years. I feel that God was grieved over those that
JF> died. He said that the world would never be destroyed by a flood
JF> again.
Get real. KId's stories about rainbow origins are just that...stories.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: What's in "Bob's" Pipe?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:22:50
--------
EID:aa5a 1c3db2c0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b03478f
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d494026
CD> What IS that stuff he smokes, anyway?
Money.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Assurance or is it really that whey?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:24:26
--------
EID:51f5 1c3db300
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b034d18
JH>> (Of course, the Mormons will tell you that not only does
JH>> God have a penis, but it's white like He is and
JH>> circumcised.)
MG>> I wonder what THAT surgeon charged.
ML> "No charge. And...hey...keep the tip!"
In which case he would have gotten stiffed on the tip.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:25:29
--------
EID:ac2c 1c3db320
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b035086
DC>>>> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>>>> Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>>> +Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away
ML>>> for Jeeeeeesus!
MG>>> +Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
ML>> +Origin: Ultraviolent Network: Gunning down doctors for
ML>> Jesus.
MG>> +Origin:Guilt Network! Jewish Mothers for Jesus and Chicken
MG>> Soup.
ML> +Origin: Goy Network!: Putzes and schlemiels for Jesus!
+Origin: STAPH NETWORK! Drizzeling Shits for Jesus.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:28:20
--------
EID:42ac 1c3db380
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0354b3
REPLY: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
Hail Satan, Johnny.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fear And Loathing...not!
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:32:40
--------
EID:a14b 1c3db400
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b036bce
REPLY: 1:247/133 0e8db195
MG>>MG>>to an eternity of hell for 70 odd years of "sin"? It jsut
MG>>MG>>doesn't
MG>> SB> I think of it as Him saving those that believe in Him.
MG>> SB> He does not force anyone to spend eternity with Him.
SB>
MG>>So, badd things do not happen to those that believe?
SB> On earth? Of course bad things happen to those who believe.
SB> Eleven of the twelve apostles were martyred.
We're getting close to the point here.....
You claim that our life on earth is unimportant, but for a life of sin,
your g
od will condemn us to an eternity of damnation. So either your god is unjust,
or the life on earth is much more important than you imply.
Therefore, bad things that happen to those that believe would be an abominatio
n. Life is important, the belief is important, but these people suffered.
It
makes no sense.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:40:03
--------
EID:bff8 1c3db500
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b03764d
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
JW> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates
JW> with us Christians rather than some other religious group?
JW> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than
JW> intellect and this
JW> hacks you off.
JW> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a
JW> possibility) c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
JW> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
JW> e. None of the above.
The major reason is that fundamentalist xtians are much mroe judgemental
and t
herefore easier to fight off. Those that are of a "black and white" nature
ar
e easy to laugh at when you show themt he shades of grey. Fundies of some
rel
igions can be this way but are less plentiful here. Many religions do not
off
er a fundamentalist viewpoint.
This forum does nto bash xtians as much as it bashes those that are too
narrow
minded to consider anything but their own way or seeing things.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:49:03
--------
EID:c123 1c3db620
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b038b36
MG>> Anyone that pesters others with "good news" is a fundy. You
MG>> claim that believers and non believers should let each other
MG>> believe as they will? why go out and spread your fables
MG>> and bother people?
JM> I'm not spreading fables to people who won't listen. If you
JM> didn't
JM> want to debate religion you wouldn't be here :)
One of the NT's provisos (according ot some other xtians here) is to spread
th
e Good News. I don't want to hear it. People don't, in general, wnat to
hear
about it...even those thta count themselves as christian.
I am here for one thing. I want good, sound, true evidence of god. Evidence
of god that is not in bible quotes, that is nto in emotional bleating about
fl
owers and green pastures. Iw ant evidence thta I can send into a journal
an d
have published and get a nobel prize.
Do you have usch evidence? I thought not.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: GOD$LOVE.GIF
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:52:19
--------
EID:bdb7 1c3db680
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b038de4
JM> Called the number you left me 214-412-8457 but keep getting
JM> busy signal. Will try later after I listen to Mr. Clinton speak.
JM> That is if he doesn't raise my taxes to high where I can't
JM> afford the long distance call :)
If you have trouble getting in, and your sysop gives permission, I will
upload
it to your BBS.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:34:00
--------
EID:db0b 1c3c6c40
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b613f
FR>Are the better educated to stand aside and allow the superstitious to
FR>include
FR>them in their bizzare beliefs? Are the better educated to stand and
FR>smile as
FR>the believers in mythology try to teach their mythologies as fact to
FR>the
FR>better educated peoples' children? Or kill the homosexuals? String
FR>up the
FR>blacks?
Is the only way you can defend your views, defining Christianity by the
worst parts of what a few people done? The large majority of Christians
would never think to try and hurt homosexuals, blacks or anyone else. Are
you that insecure in your beliefs?
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Fear And Loathing... Not
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:36:01
--------
EID:55a2 1c3c6c80
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6140
FR>sb> So you are saying that you know my Christian friends
FR>sb> better than I do and you know for a fact that they
FR>sb> live in fear? Thats quite the claim!
FR>In fact I understand what motivates you better than you do.
What makes you think that?
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Aids
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:04:02
--------
EID:877b 1c3c7080
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6141
FR>sb> Acts such as promiscuous sex and sharing needles
FR>sb> have an impact on who gets AIDS. Do you agree?
FR>First of all, AIDS is not a sexually-transmitted disease. HIV is.
FR>I will refuse to agree. Lesbian homosexuals don't fit the Christian
FR>agenda
FR>well and, in any event, sexual activity may continue unabaited safely
FR>by
FR>taking precautions, negating the Christian demand for sexual
FR>dysfunction (the
FR>risk of infection remains as it always had for the last 10,000
FR>years.)
I think most doctors would disagree with you. While lesbians do seem to
be an exception, most medical experts agree that promiscuous sex does
increase the risk of AIDS. You are also wrong in thinking that taking
precautions makes sexual activity safe. It may lower the risk but it does
not take it away.
FR>"Christian morality," by the way, is a myth concocted by a broad
FR>spectrum of
FR>various interpretations of the classical Christian mythologies. As
FR>you will
FR>doubtless deny, atheist morality (typically situational in scope) is
FR>evidenced the higher morality.
The Bible clearly says that homosexuality, adultery and fornication is
wrong. That is what Christian morality concerning sex is based on.
FR>FR> The classical Christian ideologies were to copulate
FR>FR> freely in accordance with the dictates of one of
FR>FR> the mythologies (as I recall, the so-called "Adam
FR>FR> and Eve" myth.) Puranic zealotry negated the concept
FR>FR> of freely copulating in the United States and, sadly,
FR>FR> such nonsense spread back to the Europan political
FR>FR> environment.
Do you have evidence for this outrageous claim? I do not deny that people
who have called themselves Christians have believed in free sex but this
certainly was not official doctrine of the early church.
FR>FR> When are you going to wake up and realize that Christianity
FR>FR> is the single most deadly force -- historically and in
FR>FR> contemporary times -- on the face of this planet? When are
FR>FR> you going to admit that the Christian ideaologies are
FR>FR> at their very heart deadly and evil?
FR>sb> Never since it is not true.
FR>I'll bet you didn't even blink an eye when you uttered that lie.
FR>Claiming
FR>the Holocaust didn't happen doesn't make it go away, Steve. In like
FR>manor,
FR>claiming that the many inquisistions, crusades, and witch hunts
FR>carried forth
FR>against humanity by Christians, for Christians, justified with the
FR>Christian
FR>pantheon didn't happen will likewise not make it go away.
FR>You are going to claim that "these were false Christians." The
FR>_ideologies_
FR>are deadly, Steve. You can point at the followers of the deadly
FR>ideologies
FR>and complain that it was their fault and you would be quite correct
FR>in doing
FR>so. Yet the ideologies which provided both the motivation and the
FR>justification for their tyrannies against humanity remains.
Any crimes committed in the name of Christianity were completely contrary
to the teachings of Christ. Those people who claimed to be Christians
could do whatever they wanted and it still would not change what Christ
taught. Christianity should be judged by what Christ taught not by what
people who used the name of Christianity for their own purposes did.
FR>FR> Since you have claimed that homosexuality is an abnormal
FR>FR> life style, you'll have to provide the evidence as the
FR>FR> burdon of proof rests upon you.
FR>sb> Why is my claim the outrageous one?
FR>Because it is evidenced false. You could use that evidence to your
FR>advantage
FR>if you knew what you were talking about and I will not provide the
FR>hint as I
FR>might very well enjoy using it against you. (Like a chess
FR>game you
FR>will make the move I expect you to make and I will play my gambit.)
FR>I will say, however, that your claim of homosexuality being abnormal
FR>is
FR>evidenced false for another reason than the one I am thinking of:
FR>people are
FR>homosexual. You may very well wish to play the numbers game and
FR>claim that
FR>it requires 51% or better of the populace to be fags before they're
FR>"normal"
FR>yet that isn't required. People are fags so that negates your claim
FR>that it
FR>is not normal.
I do not see how the fact that there are homosexuals makes it normal.
There are people with multiple personalities, does that make them normal
too?
FR>Before you take your finger off of that piece, take a note that I
FR>covered
FR>that avenue of defense as well: Mental maladies in individuals are
FR>considered "normal" and "abnormal" through many conventions.
FR>Homosexuals are
FR>neither medicallly nor mentally suffering from a disorder.
Do you have evidence for this claim?
FR>FR> I accuse you, Steve. I accuse you of harboring hatred and
FR>FR> intolerance towards homosexuals. While not a criminal offense,
FR>FR> you seem unwilling to stand trial. It _may_ be that you
FR>FR> feel guilty and so can not address the issue.
FR>sb> I have no hatred towards homosexuals.
FR>And yet you feel as though there is something wrong with them, right?
FR> And
FR>that is a belief which is underscored through both your written
FR>mythologies
FR>as well as your internal distaste at the contemplation of homosexual
FR>behavior.
Distaste for a behaviour does not equate hatred for an individual.
FR>sb> I work with a homosexual and if you were to ask her if she
FR>sb> thought I was a bigot, I guarentee you she would say no.
FR>Have you told her that you think she needs help? For her immortal
FR>"soul?"
As far as I am concerned, her biggest problem is not her homosexuality.
She has the same problem as most of the people that I work with, they are
not born again. If I somehow "convinced" her to give up homosexuality,
she would be no closer to heaven.
FR>sb> Yes there is a difference between homosexuals and homosexuality.
FR>sb> If I had a son who was gay, I would still love him even though
FR>sb> I disagreed with his lifestyle.
FR>You continue to fail to understand that it isn't a "life style" any
FR>more than
FR>it is a selection of a profession. It may entirely be a generic
FR>predisposistion or even a natal environmental factor. Claims that
FR>homos have
FR>been "saved" by "turning them around" are entirely bunk (and
FR>debunked.)
While I do not think that people can be saved by turning them around, I
do
believe that some people have given up homosexuality. I have heard
testimonies from both Christian and secular sources concerning this. If
you have evidence that these testimonies were false, I would be glad to
see it.
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Political Witchcraft
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:16:03
--------
EID:2385 1c3c7200
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6142
DS>Well, I don't know anything about the NDP...what is it, exactly?
The New Democratic Party (NDP) is a party that has typical socialist
values such as increased government involvement in all areas of life.
They proposed making nursery school mandatory and starting it at an
earlier age because they believe that they can raise the children
better than the parents. One of the reasons for the NDPs lack of results
in the federal election was the hostile feelings of Ontario towards our
first NDP provincial government. They have screwed up so badly that they
have hurt the chances of the NDP in Canada for a long time. They fired
a
MPP (Member of Provincial Parliment) for appearing in a newspaper with his
jacket off and yet they supported a MPP who publically slandered a doctor.
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 Prepare the way of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Jesus And Paul
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:20:04
--------
EID:44f7 1c3c7280
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6143
JH> Jesus was extremely vocal in condemning the "rich".
JH> Paul dropped this completely and embraced and supported the
JH>existing
JH> social structure of his day.
JH> There is nothing in the sayings of Jesus that supports Paul's
JH> somewhat backward attidude towards women.
Jesus said nothing that contradicted Pauls statement about women. As for
being backward, it was not backward when it was written. These are not
contradictions. They are examples of one saying something about a certain
subject and the other not saying anything. Do you have any real
contradictions?
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 In the beginning was the Word...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: F R Kelly
Sub: Faith
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:26:05
--------
EID:e6fb 1c3c7340
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6144
FR>SB>That Jesus was the Son of God and that He died on the cross to
FR>save me
FR>SB>from the penalty of my sins.
FR> But you hadn't committed the sins, so Jesus didn't know you from bat
FR>droppings. How can we save him if he hasn't been born? Now there's
FR>something
FR>to think about.
Since God is all knowing, He knew all the sins I would commit even before
the world was created.
FR> The entire concept of salvation came about because Jesus' teachings
FR>were too
FR>hard to follow so Paul created his "get out of retribution free" crap
FR>and the
FR>goys bought it. If you take enough time to do a complete examination
FR>of the
FR>New Testament and its' history, this fact is clear.
You are allowed your opinion but I strongly disagree with your
interpretation. Paul does not contradict the teachings of Jesus which
makes your "fact" a bit less clear.
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 You're the solid rock on which I stand
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:34:06
--------
EID:ffcd 1c3c7440
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6145
WM> CD> "And what is God like?", asked the President in an awed tone of
WM>voice.
WM> CD> Replied the captain after a minute's silence, "She's black."
WM> And wouldn't that torque the jaws of the fundys!
There was a church in Toronto (I think) a while back that was doing a play
about Jesus and they decided to use a black woman to portray Jesus.
WinQwk 2.0b#1175 The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
SEEN-BY: 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/1701 209/207 209 710 720 770 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Prophesy
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:38:07
--------
EID:821b 1c3c74c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6146
HP> SB>The large horn is Alexander the Great.
HP>Doesn't say that, though, does it, Steve?
HP> SB>The four horns are Ptolemy I who ruled Egypt and North Africa,
HP> SB>Seleucus who ruled Syria and Mesopotamia, Lysimachus who ruled
HP> SB>Thrace and Asia Minor and Cassander who ruled Macedon.
HP>Gee, doesn't say that either, does it, Steve?
HP> SB>The stern faced king is Antiochus IV Epiphanes who tried to
HP> SB>destroy the Jewish faith and who died not from human power, but
HP> SB>from illness.
HP>Doesn't say that either, does it, Steve?
HP>Aren't these _your interpretations_, Steve, and not what the book
HP>says?
It just happens to fit all the historical facts. It looks to me like this
was a pretty specific prophesy which came true.
HP> SB>Josephus describes the book of Daniel existing before Alexander
HP>had
HP> SB>completely conquered the Persians as seen in Antiquities XI.5:
HP>"And
HP> SB>when the book of Daniel was showed to him, wherein Daniel
HP>declared that
HP> SB>one of the Greeks would destroy the army of Persians, he supposed
HP>that
HP> SB>himself to be the person intended..."
HP>Amazing that Flavius Josephus, 37 AD - ~95 AD, could ha