God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Peter Vanderkam
To: All
Sub: WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
Date: 28 Jan 94 22:35:11
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EID:5411 1c3cb460
MSGID: 1:229/510@FIDONET.ORG 1e813698
BIBLE INTRO.
The Bible is said to be the "least known best-seller of
all times". It continuous to be sold by the millions on a
worldwide scale, while at the same time it is generally
conceded that, especially in our Western society, acquaintance
with the Bible is on the wane to such an extend that we now
speak of a Bible illiterate generation. Now that religious
education in our elementary schoolsystem is becoming a thing of
the past (and I am speaking of the Canadian scene), this
situation can only get worse. Whether that is good, bad, or
indifferent, is a matter of one's point of view. In my
considered opinion this is a real (if not tragic) loss. Why?
In order to answer that question, we will have to take a
look backwards in order to become aware of the influence the
Bible (and its message) have had on society. We will
subsequently have to take a closer look at what is happening
today in order to assess how today's events can conceivably
influence the future of our society.
In general it can be said, without fear of too much
contradiction, that the influence of religion on the behavior
of people the world over has been, and is, tremendous.
Notwithstanding the fact that an enormous amount of good has
been done in the name of religion (including Christianity), it
can't be denied that much of the violence perpetrated between
nations today is religion based (including Christianity). We
only have to think of what is happening in Yugoslavia, Armenia,
Ireland, North Africa, Sri Lanka, Cambodia India/Pakistan and
the Middle East, to know that religious strife is rampant.
Seeing that this is an introduction to the Bible, we need
to acquaint ourselves with the success/failure of the Bible and
its message. A cursory glance at any world map, which shows the
world religions as a percentage of the world population, makes
it clear that Christianity is by far and away the largest among
the world's great religions. It is clear from this that
comparatively speaking the spread of Christianity has been
phenominal. With over a billion adherents, its influence has
been, and still is tremendous.
What we need to keep in mind is that all that influence
originated in reports which surrounded the life, death and
resurrection of a Jew, named Jesus. He lived and died some two
thousand years ago, but the story of that event, and its
meaning, have been carried abroad by missionaries with the
results just shown. That message ultimately came to be
contained between the covers of a book, the Bible. It is with
the relevance of the Bible that we are concerned today.
There are certain events taking place on the spiritual
level which are so well documented that they are accepted as
facts. One of those facts is that Islam today is the fastest
growing religion on a worldwide basis. Another fact is that
teachers of other world religions are seeing the North American
continent as a spiritual wasteland which has caused them to
target the US and Canada as prime areas for new recruits. Yet
another fact is that Christianity on the North American
continent as well as in Europe is on the decline, whereas it is
on the increase in otherworld countries.
Whether those facts fill us with elation or trepidation,
whether they fill us with sadness or joy is of little
consequence. There is, however, no getting away from the fact
that we Christians are under an obligation to tell the story,
which is contained in the Bible, to the best of our ability,
making use of the latest in technic and biblical research.
Does that research, our increased technical know-how, and
our greater secular sophistication threaten the Truth, either
singly or together? My answer is: NO, they don't, but.... they
may well force us to restate our centuries old story of the
Good News. That, for many, is a scary proposition, but given
the influence that book has had, and still has, and the
responsibilities we individually as well as collectively carry,
we have no other option than to engage in a thorough study of
all the relevant material we can find, if only for the sake of
the TRUTH!
What research are we talking about? The research I speak
of has been taking place in such diverse disciplines as
History, Archaeology, Geology, Literature, Biology, and others.
What new evidence has that research in those disciplines
unearthed, and what is the nature of those findings that they
could conceivably cause us to consider changing our belief
statements?
The findings in those fields of inquiry have enabled us to
place the Bible in its historical context. From my own
experience I can tell you that doing so is quite an experience.
For instance, thanks to incredible historical and literary
detective work, scholars of all stripes are now agreed that the
first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) were not written
by Moses, but are a composite of the writings of different
authors who not only lived in different eras, but also lived in
different parts of the country.
That however is the topic of the next post.
Peace
Peter!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:58:04
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EID:3d08 1c3c1740
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PID: FM 2.02
> which he shares. Hitler was a lovely Christian, too, who justified
> the genocide of Jews using the same mythologies; specifically, the
> Isis/Jesus mythos and its "clearing out of the temple." (Just ask
> for the reference if you don't believe me and I will post Hitlers'
> speech.)
Hey, Dan may not have the balls to see it but I'll be happy to make the
reques
t. Please, Mr Rice, will you post Hitler's speech?
> FR> You don't know that, nationally, and depending upon the
> FR> brand name your brand of Christianity chooses, upwards of
> FR> 66% of your clergy is homosexual. Also, no church
> dl> Actually I KNOW that mine has no homosexual ministers INTERnationally,
> dl> as there are no Bishops who are not the husband of one wife, as is
> dl> required in the Bible, something that most churches do not follow.
I laughed so hard at this, both cats went out the window (into the rain,
no le
ss) and when I laughed so long I was gasping and coughing, my ol'lady got
out
of bed and came in to see if I needed her to call an ambulance or something.
Yeah, "911? My ol'man just read some stupid shit posted by a fundie, and
now
he's not breathing so good, can you send help?"
Someone better send this boy a clue. Just don't write "Educational Material"
on the envelope or he'll panic and toss it in the fireplace, lest he (god
forb
id) learn something.
> You know no such thing. Austin Miles notes in his book "Don't Call
> me Brother" that the majority of the ministers within the Pentecostal
> "Asses of gods" maintained wives with or without families while also
> being caught engaging in one homosexual affair after another. He was
> the one who compiled the statistics of _overt_ homosexuality among
> the ministers -- most of whom were married. He discounted questional
> advances he observed or was the intended target of.
And lots of 'em are married with children. Their children. Their own,
biolog
ical children. Get it, Dan?
I don't know where fundies got the idea that het sex is impossible for gay
men
.
> History proves you wrong in the mistaken belief that marriage to a
> male or a female negates the possibility of homosexuality -- or the
> probability within Christian clergy.
> By not recognizing the fact, you exhibit your intolerance, Dan.
Now, that's a beneficial mistaken belief, Mr Rice. Het blindness has allowed
gays and lesbians to use that camouflage for centuries. Now you gotta go
and
blow their cover by telling this fundie that gay people get married. How
hate
ful of you.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:01:05
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> dl> Winter is pure hate mixed with batent lies and intentionally
> dl> ignoring parts of that which he supposedly supports.
> As an aside, dismissing the inflamatory rhetoric I usually employ:
> Everyone here agrees with you. He is not representitive
> of Christianity and we recognize the fact. Neither is
> Joe Save-lie representitive and we recognize that fact. We
They are, though representative of a sizeable subculture within christianity,
and they do use christianity as one of their tools of oppression. They
bear k
eeping an eye on, if nothing else.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Proof
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:25:06
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PID: FM 2.02
> "General Leipzig? Why's private Keeton clutching his crotch?"
> "Sorry, sir! He was unmanned by Private Martin. We found the chared
> remains, though." fragments>
And all this time, I thought "unmanned" meant a variety of spacecraft operated
robotically or by remote control.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:57:07
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PID: FM 2.02
> @ Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby
Very good, sir. And which wine would you like with that, sir?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Rose
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: The End
Date: 28 Jan 94 01:53:03
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PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Fredric!
FR> The guy can't even acknowlege that his Jesus was once Isis
Wow! No wonder diaper-boy always wore those flowing loose robes. It was
done
to hide *her* shapely figure! S/he did good work on that fake beard, as
well
. Fooled 'em completely! :)
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:01:04
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EID:cb85 1c3c1020
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487691
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PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Rob!
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the current
RB> pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the holocaust.
Yeah...some story about him in his young days being told in effect, to 'Pull
this lever'...and he thought he was just turning on the lawn sprinklers.
Littl
e did he know... :)
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:04:05
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PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello J.J.!
JJH> Street corners I can deal with. I find street evangelism more
JJH> entertaining than I find it a nuisance.
Aren't those pin-heads a laugh riot!?? :D
I love it when someone gets behind them and crouches down. Then you simply
pu
sh forward a bit and...
JJH> And answering the door without your pants on will take care of the
JJH> door-to-door types.
Also holding a bottle of half-empty gun oil in one's hands...looking mildly
an
noyed...adds to the effect and the laughs! :)
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: George Wells
Sub: Gawd HAS LEFT
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:08:06
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EID:834c 1c3c1100
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d487759
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello George!
GW> wish to offer my opinion of the "Christian God" that I beleive.
If you are going to support outdated superstitions...at least get it right.
Th
e word is 'believe.'
GW> I also beleive that soon after his son departed from this world,
GW> that he no longer watched over us, and does not to this day.
Much like when one forgets to check the toilet. It just sits and sits...
GW> It would appear to me that this world is some great experiment on this
GW> "God"'s part, which he grew tired of, and left us.
Perhaps the lingering smell will bring him back one day...and he'll remember
t
o
flush the Cosmic Commode. Hope he lowers the seat, as well.
GW> treated harshly for my opinions. Just sharing my thoughts, that is
all.
"Bubbly...bubbly...bubbly...Sani-Flush...a-waaayyyyy!"
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:15:07
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PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Charlie!
CJR> Show me the bones of Jesus in the grave and I will be satisfied that
He
CJR> did not rise from the dead. Show me credible historical accounts by
CJR> Greek, Roman, or Jewish historians that describe how the resurrection
CJR> was faked.
Show us anything that proves some clown called 'jaysus' actually existed
at al
l, and did rise (not counting his peter) and we'll agree he is some kind
of ga
wd after all. That should be easy for any such deity to do...not just
for mi
ndless sheeple who wish it to be so.
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:44:01
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REPLY: 1:387/303 52e5220e
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Wednesday January 26 1994 09:56, Jerry Faust wrote to Marty Leipzig:
JF> God's love is totally unconditional.
Naturally, all we have to go on your say so...since gawds are totally non-exis
tent, as well.
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Continuing the message...
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:46:02
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Hello Jerry!
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays, lesbians,
The worms really loved him once, too. He gave them indigestion, though.
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Don Martin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:19:54
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PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- God Strikes
L.
A. -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 08:48:
ML> not a small amount of hot volcanic gasses. All of a sudden, the
ML> surface broke into individual platelets and started to convect
ML> (just like the bigger continental plates). We all bid a hasty
ML> retreat to the crater rim just in time to see a new $200,000
ML> coring rig slowly being subducted....
ML> The lava fountaining that evening was most impressive.
You guys do get to have all the fun. I have always wanted to see an erup
tion first hand (the lava sort, thankyouverymuch, and not the Mt. St. Helens
s
ort).
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:24:08
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A pregnant pause ensued as Steve Quarrella shared a conception -- Your daily
c
huckleth -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 22:21:
> DM> monopoly on the truth business. 'Tis protestantism that makes the
> DM> translations, laddie, starting with Der Luterbibel in Germany and
with
> DM> Tyndall and others in the days of good Henry VIII in England--16th
> DM> century works, all. Too late for Old English.
SQ> Er...about that Vulgate Bible... :)
SQ> [Yes, I know...I'm just throwing a red
SQ> herring your way. I know that the
SQ> majority of literate people were clergy. :) ]
And the Vulgate was in Latin--it wasn't all THAT vulgar as to be in Engli
sh. Back then you didn't COUNT as literate unless you could read Latin.
Stand
ards have fallen sadly in the past few centuries . . . .
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: More Hell Fire
Date: 27 Jan 94 13:44:17
--------
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MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d480c71
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- More Hell
Fire
-- with Martin Goldberg on 24 Jan 94 08:34:
> MG> It reminds me of the old Jack Benny routine where the thief sticks
a
> MG> gun into hsi ribs and says "Your money or your life". Jack stands
> MG> there a second and says "I'm THINKING about it"
ML> Wasn't it also Jack who said: "I got a poodle for my wife. It
ML> was a hell of a good trade."?
I would doubt it. Benny's humor was self-deprecating and not likely to
d
eprecate anyone else; particularly as his wife was so well known, he would
shr
ink from this sort of Henny Youngman "Take my wife - - - - PLEASE!" joke
as li
kely to refer to the real person and hurt her.
ML> Also, why are all your messages tagged "Private"? Surely all
ML> need to be exposed to this high hilarity.
Labels are one thing, reality quite another.
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Possibility & probability
Date: 27 Jan 94 14:05:53
--------
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MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d481236
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Mike Staab shared a conception -- Possibility
& pro
bability -- with Hector Plasmic on 24 Jan 94 10:47:
>> You apparently are hooked on mindless faith. Unless you
>> have some
MS> What I don't understand is how by attacking me in an ad hominum
MS> manner you believe that you've "proved" something.
MS> As you are probably aware, there is nor can there be evidence to
MS> "prove" God in the sense that to deny it would be lunacy. What we
MS> are left with is the concept of possibility and probability. That
MS> God is possible is something even you ought to be able to admit.
MS> It is the question of probability that
MS> discussion ought be centered upon.
MS> You call the belief in God "mindless".
Your argument above goes far to demonstrate that such a belief is mindles
s, for, absent proof or even evidence of the existence of God, that belief
mus
t be based on something other than proof or evidence. Since evidence and
proo
f are necessary for functioning minds to work with when trying to establish
th
e validity of a proposition, that belief which requires neither does not
requi
re a mind, either. Plasmic's characterization is accurate.
Certainly, a god is possible. But then, so is an invisible pink hippo na
med Daisy. Without evidence, belief in either is equally mindless.
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Theory???
Date: 27 Jan 94 14:23:28
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MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d481667
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d435ba4
A pregnant pause ensued as Joe Savelli shared a conception -- Theory???
-- wit
h Tony Nasrallah on 24 Jan 94 00:24:
JS> Why should I or anybody else believe it, and trust in it
JS> if its going to change next year because of some other "fact"
JS> newly discovered.
Why should I or anyone else believe whatever you have to say about anythi
ng if you continue to refuse to provide any evidence for that good soul
in Flo
rida arrested for doing nothing more than praying in a restaurant? We don't
h
ave to fear any new facts being discovered by you, so long as you decline
to d
iscover any at all.
Once again, I put it to you, Mr. Savelli, that you are a lying sack of sh
it and unworthy of belief.
Lying sacks of shit unworthy of belief make rather poor defenders of the
faith.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 28 Jan 94 05:06:43
--------
EID:8c2a 1c3c28c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48ee06
PID XRS! 5.1-
You have made the following sweeping claim:
MS>The Bible has withstood every and any test given to it for
MS>authenticity, accuracy and truthfullness.
Just what tests are these of which you speak? Ones conducted by persons
already believing in the bible? Or ones conducted by independent investigator
s? If the latter, please cite representitive tests, their objectives, their
m
ethodology and where they are to be found.
What is the "authenticity" of the Bible, anyway? That what we have as th
e OT was indeed written by a number of Jewish persons before the time of
Jesus
and what we have as the NT was written by some others beginning thirty years
and more after the death of that worthy? Who disputes this sort of "authentic
ity"? If you have another sort in mind, please define it.
Similarly, what do you mean by accuracy? The book contains a number of
v
erifiable facts of mundane things, like the identity of places and persons.
I
t contains a number of extraordinary assertions that are unverified and
unveri
fiable this side of the grave, as in the assertion that at such a place
and ti
me God appeared to some person and said this, that, and t'other thing.
Now, t
he person in question may very well have believed that this had happened
to hi
m and the report that he so believed may be termed "accurate", but one rather
suspects that you want us to suppose also that the SUBSTANCE of his belief
(th
at there is a god and that it did appear and that it did say "this, that,
and
t'other thing" on the time and place in question). If you indeed wish this
su
bstance of belief to be included under the rubric of "accuracy", please
give y
our readers some reason for sharing your view.
And what do you mean by truthfullness (and how does it differ from "accur
acy")? I doubt that anyone here would dispute the claim that the several
auth
ors of the book really BELIEVED in what they were writing and thus were
tellin
g the truth as they saw it, but then persons claim every year that they
have b
een abducted by spacemen with equally firm conviction. Have you something
mor
e in mind for the term "truthfullness"? If so, please define.
MS>It has not been found
MS>to contain any themeatic contradictions throughout, and the
MS>record of prophecies is unparralled by ANY work in history.
What is a "themeatic contradiction", and how is the absence of such a thi
ng significant? The book contains quite a number of ordinary contradictions,
a partial list of which shall probably be posted here by someone at the
drop o
f a hot button.
Regarding the prophecies, your claim is similar to your claim of "tests".
Have said prophecies been confirmed by believers only or by independent
inve
stigators? When told something like "the aardvark shall devour the gopher
for
its fat, but the lion, gazelle and eagle will make it disgorge its meal
MEANS
that Desert Storm will make Hussein give up Kuwait," believers are likely
to
nod yes, yes, hallelulea! Independent investigators may remain unconvinced,
p
ointing to several hundred equally applicable occasions over the past thousand
years or so. In the case of prophecies supposedly "fulfilled" by the NT,
you
have to overcome the objection that the persons depicted may well have been
d
eliberately acting out certain prophetic scripts that would enhance their
impo
rtance or that post facto accounts of their actions were embellished by
their
authors with details invented to serve that same function.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: T H E T W I L I G H T Z O N E
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:36:08
--------
EID:06d3 1c3c3480
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fc27
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b952571
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- T H E T
W I L
I G H T -- with Don Martin on 23 Jan 94 21:34:
>dm> While he slumbered, his angry wife got a knife from the kitchen,
>dm> sliced off (malicious wounding) his tool (at which moment he awoke
>dm> of a sudden) and ran from the house.
FR> An interesting turn of events. I am reminded of a rather bad
FR> television movie where the poor unfortunate gets his head cut off
FR> and spends the next 400 years haunting his house demanding,
FR> "Where is my head?!"
FR> Enter the remake of the movie with Mister Bobbitt as the primary protag.
Most recent reports have both Bobbitts (I got his name wrong, incidentall
y; it is "John Wayne Bobbitt", not "Dwayne Bobbitt", though I rather suspect
t
hat the simple "Bobbitt" alone will be enough to ease his painful way into
his
tory) negotiating movie deals: expect paired films/TV specials from this
one,
with his version showing a larger specimen excised.
>dm> Waiting for the light a few blocks later, she noticed
>dm> she still had his putz in her hand, so she rolled down
>dm> the window and threw the thing out on the grassy verge
>dm> (littering).
FR> Littering?! Please, oh please don't shatter my high opinion of
FR> the justice system and tell me that you make a little joke!
Joke? Moi?
>dm> A search party was dispatched for the missing member and
>dm> succeeded in finding it before a passing dog made a meal
>dm> (or snack, perhaps) of it.
FR> While I couldn't be sure whether it was tasty or not, a passing
FR> bird might have mistaken it as a rather unusual... Aw, ferget
FR> it. I refuse to continue on the grounds that Moderator may eject me.
HERE?
>dm> The ground was snowy, the day cold: the putz was in
>dm> pristine condition.
FR> Such poetry!
>dm> Mr. B. has been acquitted on the charge of rape;
FR> It doesn't take a psychic to guess that conclusion.
>dm> the trial of Mrs. B. on the charge of malicious
>dm> wounding is ongoing even as I type.
FR> While Mister B. and his trusty dickey are reunited, do I take it
FR> that Madam B. and Mister B. are no longer?
Well, the "trusty" part is in some doubt, nerve regeneration being the di
cey thing it is, but man and member are together again, yes. Man and wife
are
living separately and a divorce, I fear, impends. "Irreconcilible difference
s" may be the grounds.
>dm> It is reported that when the photograph of the penis all
>dm> by its lonesome was circulated through the jury, it made
>dm> the trip in twenty seconds flat, so we know that they are
>dm> on top of the evidence.
FR> "Why yes..." (holding the photograph, turning it around and
FR> around)
For 1.666 seconds per juror--the thing fairly SPUN.
>dm> You must be about the only American not aware of all this.
FR> I am in exile! While I am not given wont to give vent to my sad
FR> state, I was told that there would be palm trees here! And women
FR> in grass skirts!
Hey, linen comes from grass, doesn't it? And to the believer, a pine bec
omes palmed with the laying on of hands. I am surprised that the event
didn't
receive foreign attention, since the male concern with putzes knows no barrie
rs.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Real unconvincing evidenc
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:51:49
--------
EID:d6f0 1c3c3660
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fc72
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c8ef7f9
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Real unconvinci
ng evidenc -- with Don Martin on 25 Jan 94 15:00:
>dm> Sometimes the fundies rub off on me here.
FR> Obituaries, Los Angeles Times, 25/Jan/94
FR> "Get it off me! Get it off me!"
FR> - Don Martin, dead at 35.
Now THAT was some years ago . . .
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:53:12
--------
EID:ba9e 1c3c36a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d48fe31
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A96864C0
A pregnant pause ensued as Amy Anderson-Coffin shared a conception -- Christia
n Coalition is gr -- with Don Martin on 23 Jan 94 17:30:
AA> Overall, Argento's pretty awful...he sure as hell ain't no Puccini.
AA> Gotta get my subscription to OPERA NEWS renewed so that I can
AA> check out the rest of Washington's season...my own next project
AA> is OTELLO, with the Florentine here in Milw.
Watch out for the black guy if you're a blonde. Valentino got good revie
ws from the local press (hey, what's local for, anyway, particularly when
the
pride of the WORLD PREMIERE runs riot?), and another friend who is an excellen
t pianist with a passion for contemporary American music really liked it.
I s
uppose that this says that the thing is as good as the best contemporary
Ameri
can music. From my point of view, this puts it around -3 on a scale from
1 to
10, Mozart and some others coming in around 10.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:19:40
--------
EID:66e6 1c3c4260
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d49124b
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8d119f
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- God Strikes
L.A
. -- with David Rice on 23 Jan 94 14:17:
>dr> Why does god hate us so much?
FR> It was aiming for __you__! Bad aim, that's all.
God's aim is notoriously poor: he draws a bead on a sinner only to demol
ish an orphanage nearby. Either that, or innocent bystanders REALLY piss
him
off.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 28 Jan 94 09:51:26
--------
EID:374f 1c3c4e60
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4927b1
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b8f3d06
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Discovery
of th
e divine -- with Charlie J. Ray on 23 Jan 94 16:26:
FR> No reuctionism was employed in Steves' comment. In the classical
FR> Christian mythologies, it states quite clearly, without the
FR> required interpretation for the removal of an embarrassment, that
FR> those are happy who bash their young ones heads against the rocks.
Sorry, Fredric, but you have Psalm 137 a bit off. It is not the heads of
their own kids that these happy men dash against rocks. It is the heads
of s
omebody ELSE's kids that they do. Makes all the difference in the world,
you
see. If they did their own, they would not qualify as upright men in the
eyes
of their god (unless, of course, their little brats had done something that
R
EALLY torques god's pork, then it would be O.K.)
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:08:17
--------
EID:da06 1c3c5100
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492b04
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0c0914ef
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Lightbulbs
& X-
tians -- with Dan Ceppa on 24 Jan 94 11:13:
>dc> ... Get a Michael Jackson doll: You
>dc> don't play with it, it plays with you
FR> Must be under 15 to purchase.
Parent approval not needed--nor recommended. Best of all, don't even TAL
K to them about this neat-o special.
Your doll will be delivered to you in a plain brown wrapper in the boy's
room at school.
Why be a teacher's pet when you can be the real pet of a real SUPERSTAR?
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: YUM!
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:23:40
--------
EID:4e62 1c3c52e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492e24
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A9687160
A pregnant pause ensued as Amy Anderson-Coffin shared a conception -- YUM!
--
with Fredric Rice on 23 Jan 94 18:24:
> FR> * Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
AA> me too...with fries and a large Coke!
You're my kind of woman, Diva!
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:28:07
--------
EID:cef7 1c3c5380
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d492f2f
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3a9d96a5
A pregnant pause ensued as Joshua Lee shared a conception -- Discipleship
-- w
ith David Rice on 22 Jan 94 05:11:
JL> (I remember seeing this thread back before my hiatus six months ago!)
It is HoleySmoke's very own hiatal hernia?
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:30:45
--------
EID:3d4e 1c3c53c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d493065
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d43f87f
A pregnant pause ensued as Rob Bamford shared a conception -- Christian
Coalit
ion is gr -- with Quentin Fai on 23 Jan 94 19:29:
RB> "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of America,
RB> and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD,
RB> indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all." -- This is
RB> something to fight for!!!
You are aware, I presume, that the words "under God" were added in 1954.
The men who defeated Hitler found that "one nation, indivisible, with liberty
and justice for all," was quite enough to fight for.
As do I.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:38:06
--------
EID:8925 1c3c54c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4931f6
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e42f78
A pregnant pause ensued as Dan Lafferty shared a conception -- Steve's PR
for
your relig -- with Fredric Rice on 25 Jan 94 21:41:
DL> Perhalps you should start by not intentionally insulting my beliefs.
And just how do you propose that anyone insult your beliefs UNINTENTIONAL
LY? Insults require intention; I presume that you would not take such offense
at the same words from a person ignorant of your creed.
---
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Dan flies washing machine; film at eleven
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:19:02
--------
EID:c6d2 1c3d5a60
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c9679
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>It's a false security to believe ANYTHING.
>
> DS>Who's the fundy now?
>
> ROFL!
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Ditto.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Stepped right in the trap...
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:20:03
--------
EID:ab65 1c3d5a80
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967a
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> Better reread this thread, Dan. Then you may as well pack it up and go
> home; you've been publicly busted.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, I haven't. You seem eager to find a way to shut me up...not used to
being
wrong?
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Tag: PR_CULTS was Added.
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:20:04
--------
EID:67d6 1c3d5a80
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967b
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>Christians fighting Christians...hehehe...
>
> Yo, Dan. They've been at it for nearly 2000 years.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Good point... :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:22:05
--------
EID:7393 1c3d5ac0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0c967c
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> No not-believer in this forum says that deities do not exist, Dan.
> They simply
> do not believe in the thousands of deities. Or fairies. Or any
> invisible superfriend. The not-believers are quire correct in stating
> that there is no evidence for these thousands of deities yet no one has
> tried to concoct a "theory" -- religious or otherwise.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
So you're saying that they don't believe or disbelieve in gods by definition,
they just don't believe in the gods that have been thought up?
Sounds like selective disbelief to me... "Well, there might be a god, but
no
one has found 'em yet..."
Yeah.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Trent Hall
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Ark hoax
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:48:00
--------
EID:d659 1c3d5600
MSGID: 1:123/67 2d4a855a
TH> Gee, Shelby... How did you go about measuring the
SS> amount of water in the
TH> hydrosphere?
SS> Gee, Trent, there are all these gosh-awful disciplines
You forget that there is -land- under the water in at least several locations.
.. and not all at the same depth/elevation...
This is at least one assumption that is pretty difficult to ascertain.
SS> known as mathematics
SS> and science, driven by a bunch of ruthless atheists,
SS> for sure. The earth is
SS> roughly a sphere and we can calculate the volume of a sphere, Trent,
even
Such as Sir Hoyle?
SS> without the use of calculus. The bible said that all
SS> the highest mountains
SS> were covered (that's what the bible said and we know
SS> that the bible wouldn't lie...
I'm glad to see you realize this 8'>
SS> lie, would it Trent?), so we can just extend the radius of the existing
SS> sphere up to the top of Mt. Everest + 20 feet ( that's what the bible
say
s
SS> and we know that the bible wouldn't lie, would it Trent?) and we get
the
SS> new projected sphere of the earth (hint: about another six miles).
There you go again !!! Can you prove that Mt. Everest is the same height
now
as before the Flood? Another one of your shaky assumptions. Anyone ever
t
ell you about assume-ing? BTW the reference is Genesis 7:19-20.
In ad
dition, the reference in Gen. 7:11 (to be convenient -g-) indicates that
the "
fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were
ope
ned." Now, if a great deal of water came up from underground, perhaps it
is c
onceivable, even to an athiest, that the ground might sink. Consider the
sink
holes in Florida, for instance. And even an athiest is probably able to
reco
gnize that if the God they deny is able to create the universe, then moving
a
large quantity of water would be no great challenge.
But of course that is one consideration that an athiest rejects out of hand
as
not empirically proven and therefore not true. Reference my earlier question
: Is a fact a "fact" prior to evidence on its behalf being presented? Or
does
a "fact" only become a "fact" after some human being presents evidence to
anot
her human being that that human 'bean' accepts as valid reasonable evidence
an
d conclusion as to the veracity of the "fact?" Seems you have conjured
up a H
indu-style "maya" concept of reality when you throw out the possibility
of abs
olute truth absent from human proof/approval.
SS> the volume of the original sphere and the remainder is the volume of
SS> the ADDITIONAL water (another hint: it's a huge amount of water.
SS> This is how science works, Trent. Are you starting to see now why there
No argument. It -was- a huge amount of water. And I did very well in high
s
chool and college science and physics classes, thank you.
SS> is a HUGE problem with the flood? It's a lie, it didn't happen. It
SS> couldn't happen.
Unless a supernatural God did it. And didn't tell -all- of the details.
And
therein lies the biggest difference in our perspective. I allow for the
exist
ence of God in the equation. You apparently do not. Does it follow that
you
think the universe created itself?
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: FundieBusters Inc. *Online Ordination $5.00* (1:123/67)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:36:07
--------
EID:c76c 1c3d3480
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:
Marty Leipzig
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Johnny Mckinney <=-
ML> Johnny Mckinney, who unwinds by reading books on evolution, said to
ML> All:
JM> I have never read a book on evolution
That is quite obvious. It is also obvious that you can't
understand a bit of wordplay.
JM> I think the non-believers who respond to this echo are lured by the
JM> Holy Spirit to satisfy their deep down hunger to come to Christ.
ML> Whoowhee! Did you ever dial up a wrong number. No one, other
ML> than the fundies intent on spreading their word; like so much
ML> manure, to "every living creature"; are lured to this echo.
ML> We "heathens" are here, on the other hand, to lend a dose of
ML> logic and rationalism to their plaintive whinings.
JM> I never once said you was a "heathen", Marty
That would be "...said you _were_ a "heathen"..." Besides, your
fundy brethren have already done that for us countless times.
JM> They are afraid to fully commit to HIM and change their lifestyles.
ML> Not at all. They are instead able to stand on their own two
ML> feet and go toe-to-toe with reality without the need of some
ML> illusory cosmic crutch.
JM> None-the-less he's helping you stand on your own two feet
Baloney. I am the only one responsible for what I do, how I do
it and how I face reality. I have absolutely no need for some
supernatural overseer.
ML> What we are afraid of is the wanton ignorance and hatred spread
ML> in the name of various deities. We face that fear head on and
ML> wrestle it into submission with the step-over toe-hold of cold
ML> reason and the body-slam of logic.
JM> No, I'm not a fundy.
ML> Quack...qauck...quack...funny, you sound like one.
JM> Cute
Zing! And another one sails clear over Johnny's head...
JM> I don't like to debate either.
ML> And please don't throw me in that echo, massa.
JM> What?
Think, Br'er Fundy, think.
JM> These are just
JM> my sincere observations. I respect every non-believers right not
JM> to believe.
ML> How very magnanimous. We, as a group, also respect the right of
ML> believers to not only believe; but shout it to all that will
ML> listen...shout it from the rooftops, shout it in the
ML> church...but keep it out of public education and don't get
ML> pissed when someone laughs out loud in the face of your sincere
ML> beliefs.
JM> I'm not angry. Just want to contribute to the debate
By all means, please do. But be forewarned, this is not the
"Sweetness and Light Echo".
Duck and cover...
ML> "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh". -
ML> R. Heinlein
JM> They in turn should also respect believers.
ML> Respect is not demanded, but rather earned. Waving deities
ML> about in the face of reason is not exactly the best way to earn
ML> such said respect.
JM> Respect is a two way street
Damn straight. Neither side gets it because they demand it.
Respect must be earned.
JM> Believers
JM> are instructed to pass on and spread "THE Good News." We often are
JM> criticized for this but we are use to it.
ML> Good. Then you're also used to being regarded as an idiot.
JM> Is it really necessary to call me an idiot, Marty? I just want
JM> to debate religion like rational human beings ;)
10^3 pardons. I publicly apologize for insinuating that you
were an idiot. But then again, you immediately follow with the
terms "religion" and "rational" in the same sentence...
JM> ! Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
No kidding? Hmmmm...another one jumps into the fray...
... To walk on water, you have to know where the rocks are.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:51:10
--------
EID:dde9 1c3d7660
DR> Yes, this bogus claim has been floating about for a few years. It
DR> was introduced by the Evangelical Christian organization called Jack
DR> Chick Publications, which has ties to neo-Nazi Christian churches
DR> such as Identity Group.
No shit?
There's a tie between Jack (stupid little comics for Jesus) Chick and
the 'Christian Identity Movement' (Klansmen for Khrist)?
Do you any references or material on this? I gotta read up on this.
(It's always fun whenever I learn that two groups on my 'Enemies List'
have been sleeping in the same bed together.)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in The Morality Games
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:04:10
--------
EID:0eee 1c3d5080
Marilyn Burge, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Styx Allum
MB> On (24 Jan 94) Styx Allum wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SA> > FR> Also, what's the fastest land animal on Earth?
SA>
SA> > The cheetah.
SA>
SA> 1.) Man (in a jet propelled land-cruiser)
SA>
SA> 2.) An Italian virgin.
SA>
SA> > ... Baroque: When you are out of Monet.
SA>
SA> Auuuuugh! I'm dying... Consider that work of art as stolen.
MB> Then you'll probably like this one too:
MB> Innuendo: An Italian homosexual.
Bigotry: An Italian Sequoia.
Bigamist: A large fog in Venice.
Stop me before I tell you about Italian snow tyres...
... Gone Chopin...Be Bach in a minuet. Hmm...where's my Lizst?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: More Hell Fire and Napalm
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:03:13
--------
EID:c050 1c3d6860
Marilyn Burge, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> Martin Goldberg, who thought juvenile water was kid stuff,said to
ML> Marty Leipzig:
ML>
ML> ML> Evidently, his money and wallet are much more important to
ML> ML> than his life. Ah, well. It appears that the fundies don't
ML> ML> to worry about this life because they've wasted it in the
ML> ML> fervent, and illusory, hope of the next.
ML>
ML> MG> It reminds me of the old Jack Benny routine where the thief
ML> sticks a
ML> MG> gun into hsi ribs and says "Your money or your life". Jack
ML> stands
ML> MG> there a second and says "I'm THINKING about it"
ML>
ML> Wasn't it also Jack who said: "I got a poodle for my wife. It
ML> was a hell of a good trade."?
MB> That sounds more like Lenny Bruce. But I couldn't find the quote
MB> anywhere in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations," so I'm only guessing.
My boss, whilst dropping eves over my shoulder, remarked that
it was a Dangerfieldianism, sp. Rodney.
... Madness takes it's toll. Please have exact change.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: STILL SEEING CREATIONIST?
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:02:45
--------
EID:9b46 1c3d4040
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Ric
e
MG> Mike Brown who won the Nobel for Medicine in 1987 has been known to
MG> get up and leave in disgust when REAL scientists are lecturing. I
MG> wonder what he would do to a guy like Gish.
Something similar to what a _Deinonychus_ would do to a poodle.
... ä å? â ç é ë ê! (You may not get it, but they're howling in Athens.)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:07:00
--------
EID:a7cd 1c3d40e0
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
ML> Nope. CH3CH2OH + H2O and various flavorings (peat moss and
ML> acid for some).
MG> Only the bourbon needs the dilution of whater to kill the taste.
Oh, so you drink straight 200 proof CH3CH2OH?
Try that with a lit Upmann's...
... A woman drove me to drink. I never properly thanked her.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:08:19
--------
EID:e864 1c3d4100
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Ric
e
DC>> + Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>> + Origin: Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>> + Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away for
ML>> Jeeeeeesus!
mg>> + Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
FR> + Origin: MALARIA, NETWORK! SHIVERING YELLOW SHITS FOR JESUS!
MG> +Origin: SWISS NETWORK!: CHEESES FOR JESUS
+Origin: CORYZA NETWORK! WHEEZES AND SNEEZES FOR JESUS!
... A jug warms the soul and places a smile in the heart.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Bombing runs: aftermath of a Mexican dinner.
Date: 29 Jan 94 08:11:44
--------
EID:7b6d 1c3d4160
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
MG>> "Hydrocyanic"=Prussic Acid or wht is commonly known as
MG>> cyanide gas. Not enough of it aroudn these days.
ML> Not enough HCN? We must work to close this "Cyanide Gap"!
MG> I plan to start tomorrow. I'm going to gas the cat.
Drat. I can't do that. I just had my wife's cat shellacked.
ML> My point exactly. But then again, you don't get nitro
ML> when the stuff is absorbed in keiselghur.
MG> I thought it was the calcium carbonate that gave the headaches.
Nope. Nitro...nitro and fundies...Hmmmm...
... Hypocrisy is the Vaseline of social intercourse.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:53:10
--------
EID:b1ef 1c3d66a0
Dan Lafferty, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> DL> Have you ever visited or even seen Pluto...
ML> Visited? No. Seen? Yes. At the JPL there is an
ML> astounding amount
ML> of imagery of this particular body and its companion
ML> Charon.
DL> That is not seeing it first hand.
But looking through the Kitt Peak telescope is, and seeing the
imagery taken from that same telescope is as well. Still,
that's not the point. One does not need to "see" the core of
the Earth, nor the bottom of the sea nor other planets as a
prerequisite for their existence; all you need to do is analyze
the evidence.
DL> You are not following the
DL> conversation very well: it was mentioned that picture &etc can be
DL> faked.
Yes, pictures can be faked. These were not.
DL> All you have for proof is their say so that it is there,
Bullshit. Science is much more than mere "say so". Celestial
mechanics and physics give not a hoot for "say so".
DL> you
DL> have not seen it for yourself.
Yes, I have.
DL> Why do you maintain such a double
DL> standard?
I do not. Trot out some physical evidence of your supernatural
buddies, and we'll scrutinize that just as closely.
... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:56:35
--------
EID:b1ef 1c3d6700
Dan Lafferty, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> DL> Then how do you KNOW it
ML> DL> exists?
ML> By something with which you are totally unfamiliar:
ML> science.
ML> Celestial mechanics, physics and astronomy, to name but
ML> a few.
DL> Funny,
Yep. You fundies are loads of yuks.
DL> I do not recall your saying that you had a PHD in ANY of those
DL> fields.
But I do hold a PhD in Geology and am quite familiar with these
scientific fields.
DL> BTW Playing the opposing POV for all it is worth does not
DL> indicate lack of understanding.
But you do it so well it is hard to differentiate that you are
"playing". Is it real or is it an act?
DL> Please keep your insults to yourself.
Push off, kneebiter. Don't like to read insults? Then quit posting
intelligence-insulting messages.
ML> DL> All those pictures might just be a fabrication of the
ML> DL> scientific community for the sake of recieving grants that they
might
ML> DL> keep their jobs.
ML> Then again, they might not. Why is it that you fundies
ML> will so
ML> readily accept something so non-evidenced as some sort
ML> of
ML> supernatural being(s), yet so readily disregard cold,
ML> hard
ML> scientific fact?
DL> My, my, we are on the defensive aren't we?
Not at all. "Global scientific conspiracy" nonsense just
exasperates me.
DL> More ad-homonims,
That's "ad hominem". I see nothing there that could be
considered an attack, but rather statement of fact.
DL> assumptions, and a little rudeness thrown in for good measure!
Welcome, welcome, welcome to HolySmoke. This ain't your Hearts
and Flowers Echo, chum.
DL> I am
DL> not a fundie,
Quack, quack, quack...
DL> kindly take your unsuported alegations to the toilet with
DL> your verbal diarhea.
Kindly remove your head from your rectum and post something with
substance.
ML> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
DL> Tell me something: Did protrons, nuetrons, and electrons exist when
DL> the atom was thought to be the most basic building block of matter?
I take this to be a rhetorical question...
DL> Did the atom exist when fire, air, water, and earth were thought to
be
DL> the most basic builing blocks of matter?
And another...
DL> Was plutonium any less radio
DL> active before they knew what that meant?
Yet another...
DL> Scientific "fact" is based
DL> on the CURRENT understanding of the CURENTLY measurable physical
DL> phenomina.
Oh, horseshit. The fact that atoms are composed of sub-atomic
particles was no less a fact before they were discovered. In
fact, facts do not change; science, however, does.
DL> Tell me, how do my dreams predict the future?
They do not. Next.
DL> That can not be
DL> measured,
"That" what? Dreams? EEG readings record REM sleep and beta
brain wave patterns during dream sleep.
DL> nor will you accept it as fact, based on your current narrow
DL> minded approach.
What? That your dreams predict the future? Out of the way boy,
this ain't the "National Enquirer Echo".
ML> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
Whoa. Deja vu...
DL> Why was I then IMPELLED to interpret a friend's dream?
Who knows? What impels people who hear voices in their head to
go out and kill, rape or proselytize? I'm a geologist, not a
psychiatrist.
DL> I can give my
DL> opinion on things any time, but I was liturally impelled to continue
DL> explaining it to her until she understood.
Or until she told you to take your alleged psychical abilities
and piss off...
... You tend to think in simple, clear terms that are wrong.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:04:04
--------
EID:f147 1c3d6880
MSGID: 1:2617/117 0f0daa17
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First John Windsor Said: ]-----
> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Because historically, they're the most discriminitory (the Crusades, etc),
and
they are the most predominant group in the world today... And it does involv
e the level of faith in something that seems, to the non-religious, as a
book
of fairy tales.
Just my personal insight. :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
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--------
From: Alan Hess
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:45:06
--------
EID:f910 1c3d95a0
MSGID: 1:261/1000 3b014c8a
REPLY: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
In a missive of John Pierce (1:123/2)
writes to All:
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
Have you ever called the Bluff City bbs? You sound like one of the many
pseud
onyms of the inbred that calls there.
JP> (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
Quoting mythology doesn't impress anyone. We know you're just jealous because
even brain-dead Jews are smarter than you.
Apollo rules!
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Nerve Center: Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Sunjester
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:55:00
--------
EID:6c45 1c3d6ee0
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94eb8
REPLY: 1:387/57.0 2d489326
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter addressed to ALL on this echo. I have received
many messages and I'll respond with a general letter.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:56:00
--------
EID:d8a6 1c3d6f00
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94efa
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3adba376
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter adressed to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:57:00
--------
EID:37c0 1c3d6f20
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f22
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d8b0e58
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter adressed to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Christianity
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:293c 1c3d6f40
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f4c
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Please see my general letter to ALL on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Drew Webber
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:59:00
--------
EID:0760 1c3d6f60
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e94f82
REPLY: 1:272/120.0 2d46f5bb
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
See my general letter addressed to ALL on this echo...
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: All
Sub: A response...
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:09:00
--------
EID:1eef 1c3d7120
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e951f8
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
This letter is in response to many messages I've recently received.
I hope you don't feel that I'm attempting to "beat a Bible over your head".
I
don't feel arrogant towards you in any way... and I certainly don't condemn
any of you.
Again, I'll agree with all of you who said that the crusades were a tragedy.
But I feel that they were done in the name of a civil/state religion, rather
than genuine Christianity.
Regarding death in the Bible, God prohibited David from building His temple
b
ecause of the David's bloodshed... indeed, David had killed many.
I'm almost out of time, but I hope to continue this discussion soon.
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: N
Sub: message
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:12:00
--------
EID:5c77 1c3d7180
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52e952a6
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
See my message to "all" on this echo.
---
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: David Worrell
Sub: Re: Playing by the rules.
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:53:19
--------
EID:b833 1c3c66a0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499492
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
RT> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony, YHWH has made Himself known to me.
RT> I say
RT> He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to corroborate
RT> this
RT> witness certainly enough to establish a _ground for belief_. By
RT> definition this is evidence.
DW>
DW> For many years most people believed the Earth was flat. I'm sure most
DW> of them would have testified to the fact that the Earth was actually
DW> flat.
I imagine some would have attempted to present evidence to that effect.
The same way some were attempting to present _old knowledge_ evidence
concerning the earth's roundness, to the then established establishment.
So what? What does that have to do with the definition of evidence?
DW> By your definition of "evidence", this must mean that the Earth
DW> actually was flat,
Your thinking is suffering from a short circuit, David. Evidence is part
of
a process. In our enlightened _state_, it is presented under the rules
of a
judicial proceedure to a _court_ for a ruling. The rules insist that the
judgement be made by individuals who are as impartial, unprejudice and
equitable as possible. They should also be capable of understanding the
evidence being ruled on.
I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
Lord, resulting in witness corroborated,(bible defined) life changes,
over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial,
unprejudice and equitable court. If such a court had made a finding,
showing cause for deception resulting in an all encompassing delusion,
(in itself showing a mighty power at work, perhaps grounds for appeal),
this court might suggest future evidence be treated as evidence of delusion.
To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
You may not _like_ the evidence, it may make you _upset_, you may feel
there is just not enough BUT you are incorrect when you say _there
is NO evidence_. Do you grasp my argument?
DW> ... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
but also be not unrighteous overmuch....Mat 5:20
For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case
enter into the kingdom of heaven.
... and on earth peace to men of good will....
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: "Vapor Canapy" nonsense
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:36:50
--------
EID:0616 1c3c6c80
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499493
-=> Quoting David Rice to All <=-
> I've heard one logical explanation why people lived hundreds of
> years before the flood (the Bibles says that after the flood an
> average life was reduced to about 70 years.) The first Chapter
> of Genesis indicates that God in his six creative days (each
> creative day can be millions of years long) created the water
> below and above. The water above means there was a very thick
> cloud layer covering the earth in permanence (this cloud layer
> provided the waters for the flood).
DR>
DR> We seem to have another pupil of the Michael Courtney school of
DR> atmospheric physics. First, clouds and water vapor are far less
DR> dense than liquid water. In the case of water vapor at (say) 25 C
DR> and 1 atmosphere pressure, liquid water is more dense than water
DR> vapor by a factor of 1370. To get enough water to flood the Earth to
DR> 6 miles deep (the height of Mt. Everest, plus a little more for good
DR> measure), you'd need a vapor layer roughly 1370x as deep as that 6
DR> miles, or 8200 miles. Fat chance. Actually, this does neglect the
Gen. 7:11...In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the second month, the
seventeenth day of the month, the same day were ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF
THE GREAT DEEP broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Seems water above and water below became water in the middle.
... and on earth, peace among men of good will...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Baby Byrd's Nest (1:221/950)
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: George Wells
Sub: Re: GOD HAS LEFT
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:19:54
--------
EID:64b1 1c3c7260
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499494
-=> Quoting George Wells to All <=-
GW> I am new to this echo and am not fully versed in it's rules, etc, but
GW> wish to offer my opinion of the "Christian God" that I beleive.
GW> I am an Anglican, and do have a beleif that at one time, yes, there
GW> was a "God" that watched over, and guided people in the very early
GW> years of mankind. However, I also beleive that soon after his son
GW> departed from this world, that he no longer watched over us, and does
GW> not to this day.
GW> I do not post this to upset anyone, nor do I expect to be flamed
GW> and/or treated harshly for my opinions. Just sharing my thoughts, that
GW> is all.
GW> George
Thats very nice George, but heresy is heresy and deserves wee bit of warmth!
I was going to hammer you, but listen, take courage He will return.
I pray the Lord will convince you of his concern for you.
Love in Jesus RT
... ...you have been with me from the beginning
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Re: too many question marks?
Date: 28 Jan 94 16:46:24
--------
EID:d5e4 1c3c85c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
-=> Quoting Derek Clayton to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
RT> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony, YHWH has made Himself known to me.
I
RT> say He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to corroborate
th
is
RT> witness certainly enough to establish a _ground for belief_. By
RT> definition this is evidence.
DC>
DC> But is this evidence of God or is it evidence of delusion?
Evidence is part of a process. In our enlightened age it is presented under
judicial proceedure to a _court_ for a ruling. The rules insist that the
judgement be made by individuals who are as impartial, unprejudice and
equitable as possible. They must also be capable of understanding
the evidence being ruled on.
I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial _court_.
If such a gathering had made a finding, showing CAUSE for deception
resulting in an all encompassing delusion, I could understand their
recommending all future evidence be treated as evidence of delusion.
To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
DC> Ancient Greeks were just as adamant in their belief that Zeus et. al.
DC> were real. Were they right? Goths were sure that Odin et. al. were
real.
DC> Were they right?
Are you suggesting they were wrong? Are you suggesting I am qualified to
_judge_ this matter? Are you suggesting you want to spend time on this
topic? Are you suggesting I can figure out some kind of connection between
this and my topic?
DC> Kids believe in Santa Claus, and get that warm,
DC> fuzzy feeling at the thought of getting presents (eternal
DC> life?...hmmm). Are they right?
Please refer to my reply to Wayne Michaels, Jan. 26th..
DC> Personal revelation has been experienced by every possible believer,
DC> for every possible belief.
Do you really think so? Are you in a position to be privy to this
information? How can anyone know what EVERY believer of every faith has
experienced? Is this suposed to lessen the evidence I am discussing?
DC> To paraphrase a tagline I once saw : this revelation illustrates
DC> the mystery of man, rather than the mystery of gods.
No offence but I would rather rely on the wisdom of the Bible. (Which
revelation does illustrate the mystery of the gods?)
DC> Perhaps, you'd like to describe how God has revealed himself to you?
There is nothing particularly special about my testimony, it's the same
as
millions of others. Man asks to meet God, God meets man. Man changes. Love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control become important
to the man. The strength of the evidence is in the number of similar
testimonies available and the length of time this has been happening.
... thank you Lord, your will not mine...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Bible Disproves Monotheism?
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:20:58
--------
EID:44ab 1c3d9280
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4aa927
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d4946dc
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Chuck:
In a msg of , Chuck Dubman writes to All:
CD> Remember what the Big G said when he was told Adam and his main squeeze
a
te
CD> of the Tree of Knowledge? Something along the lines of, "They have
becom
e
CD> as one of the GODS. They have become one of US." Note carefully the
There's similar babble at the tower of babel.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Shut 'em down... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Humanism
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:54:03
--------
EID:1087 047672d3
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5335
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones <=-
MB> As for whether you agree with any of them or not, I could care less,
MB> quite frankly. . . .
MB> . . . Feel better now? Good.
A few days ago you were complaining, falsely, that I had ignored your
previous post of humanist principles. Now you're complaining because I
responded. It appears you are afraid of having your principles scrutinized,
intent on being hostile to me, or both.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Amen!
Date: 29 Jan 94 06:59:04
--------
EID:1087 047672d4
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5336
-=> Quoting Jerry Faust to Don Martin <=-
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays, lesbians,
JF> etc.
Amen, Jerry! Welcome to this corner of Hell, and good luck!
Yours in Christ,
Jesse
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:37:09
--------
EID:7c26 1c3c7ca0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d497966
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e524d4
A pregnant pause ensued as Jerry Faust shared a conception -- ASSURANCE
-- wit
h Don Martin on 26 Jan 94 10:08:
>DM> "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
>DM> And dashes them against the rock!"
JF> In context, these words were penned following the Babylonian
JF> captivity of Jews around the sixth century B.C. These words were
JF> probably penned in response to the situation.
Revenge IS a noble motive in a Godly people, is it not?
JF> As one Bible
JF> commentator puts it, the action described above clearly falls
JF> below ethical standards, yet it might have been a result of the
JF> anger felt when the Babylonians destroyed the Jewish Temple and
JF> exiled these Jews. Sort of like yelling at someone who pulls in
JF> front of you on the freeway without a blinker, etc.; you don't
JF> literally mean "I'll kill you" yet you said it as an emotional response.
And the Old Testament is quite devoid of real killing, of rounding up the
girl children for screwing or selling into slavery--all those words presumabl
y recording such filth are just the vengeful fantasies of a mild-mannered
peop
le out to have a good time.
You really BELIEVE this "Bible commentator"? If so, I have a piece of Fl
oridian real estate you may be interested in. There is a nice restaurant
on i
t, haunted by a ghostly figure atop the salad bar.
>DM> that the infants are only steenkin', brown-skinned li'l
>DM> Babylonians:
JF> God never condones violence against any infants.
Really? Then why does His Inspired Word not say something like "Miserabl
e is he who dashes the head of ANY infant upon a rock"? He left in "happy",
h
e gets to live with it.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:46:08
--------
EID:785e 1c3c7dc0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d497b3e
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3adbb24a
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- Homosexualit
y -- with Don Martin on 26 Jan 94 22:17:
MG> Yeah....who was the lady....oh, yeah, Nell Gwynn. She ended up
MG> in Australia or somesuch with her outlaw husband. She was
MG> supposed to have had it...if she was a real figure.
Nell Gwynn was indeed a real figure and quite a character. She was the
m
istress of Charles II during troubled times when Chuck was suspected of
having
Popish leanings. When her carriage was stopped by an anti-papist mob (fundie
s willing to kill persons holding views different from their own are NOT
a twe
ntieth century invention), she stuck her head out of the window and cried,
"pr
ay, let me pass, good people. 'Tis I, Nell Gwynn, the PROTESTANT whore!.
The
crowd cheered and parted.
MG> Other famous syphilis carriers...
MG> 1. Ivan the Terrible
MG> 2. Al Capone
MG> 3. Beethoven.
Let us not forget George Washington, whose mahoganny choppers replaced te
eth probably lost to the mercury cure. Beethoven's deafness I have heard
was
possibly the result of congenital syphilis, but he may well have picked
up his
own along the way, sopranos being what they were (and are, if you're lucky).
---
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Re: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:27:05
--------
EID:49f1 1c3d9b60
JF> In regard to the flood, death has never been a part of
JF> God's original intent for humanity. Moses did proclaim
JF> the coming rain for many years.
Moses?!
Gosh... my secular uninspired understanding of the story was that
Moses came AFTER the flood by at least a small handfull of centuries.
Sure glad you know your Bible there....
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:23:59
--------
EID:2f99 1c3daae0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02bf89
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d870dc3
mg>> fundies like to interject here simply does not exist. Too
mg>> bad that the fundy in question is not likely to.
FR> I have learned _some_ of what you've talked about. And doubtless
FR> we'll see the same claim many more times to further hone the
FR> debunk skills.
I have, this very day, areafixed skeptic, atheist, and evolution from Steve
Q.
Now I'll have three times the fun.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Santa and eight flying reindeer
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:36:30
--------
EID:04b1 1c3dac80
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02df01
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d46d4b5
RT>>MG> Can you provide some?
WM>> Millions of children believe in Santa Claus and will give
WM>> you "testimonies" that he exists because they got presents
WM>> from him. So, you believe in Santa Claus?
RT> Let me get this straight, a million children present evidence, in
RT> the form of sworn testimony, concerning their belief in the
RT> existence of Santa Claus. I am asked to weigh this evidence
RT> and present my finding (judgement). Upon examination I cannot
RT> find sufficient evidence to substantiate that Santa exists in
RT> the physical realm (since I have conflicting evidence on
RT> hand in the form of sworn testimonies from parents; stating
RT> that they deliberately deceived their children with stories
RT> and signs in the snow)! I do find a lot of evidence that hard
RT> hearts are touched and _something_ happens when Christmas
RT> draws near. So what, what does this have to do with MG's
RT> assertion that _there is NO evidence_? Their sworn testimony
RT> is evidence.
And here is MG back again. You have sidestepped the issue mightily. The
fact
that parents have fooled their kids into believeing in Santa makes him no
mor
e real. The fact that millions have been fooled into thinking there is
a god,
makes that god no more real than Santa.
There is NO evidence for god. Can you provide some?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:45:12
--------
EID:af7e 1c3dada0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02f455
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e638ba
DL> That is not seeing it first hand. You are not following the
DL> conversation very well: it was mentioned that picture &etc can be
DL> faked. All you have for proof is their say so that it is
DL> there, you have not seen it for yourself. Why do you
DL> maintain such a double standard?
You are treading on dangerously thin ice here. I believe that you know
it, as
well. The many different images of Pluto or of anything very far away or
ver
y small, preventing first hand ovservation, could not be faked. There would
b
e too many discrepancies. It would be a difficult feat to fake a star or
a pl
anet.
god, ont he other hand, had left no trace. No photo, no natural evidence,
not
hing.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:48:53
--------
EID:af7e 1c3dae00
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b02fa76
REPLY: 1:141/1108 52e63d02
DL> Tell me something: Did protrons, nuetrons, and electrons exist
DL> when the atom was thought to be the most basic building block of
DL> matter? Did the atom exist when fire, air, water, and earth were
DL> thought to be the most basic builing blocks of matter? Was
DL> plutonium any less radio active before they knew what that meant?
DL> Scientific "fact" is based on the CURRENT understanding of
DL> theCURENTLY measurable physical phenomina.
Tell me something: Was the evidence for Pluto faked or is it the wild and
fanc
iful dreams of some clown trying to get an edge in ofr evidence of his deity?
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: AIDS and safe sex
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:51:02
--------
EID:fcc3 1c3dae60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b031050
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d47f6a1
MG>> unprotected sex with multiple parnters. Disease free,
MG>> monogamous homosexual couples will not get infected through
MG>> their sex acts.
RT>
LZ>> rest get it because they went out and got it. Homosexuality
LZ>> and perverson hurts poeple one way or anoter.
MG>> Skip the bible quotes for evidence of anything. Let's hear
MG>> if you hve some really authoratative evidence for this
MG>> stuff.
RT> Quoting R. Noble, Prof. of Med. U of Kentucky College of Med.
RT> Lexington KY Newsweek, Apr 1 1991....._What do I know about
RT> all this? I'm an infectious diseases physician and an AIDS
RT> doctor to the poor. Passing out condoms to teenagers is like
RT> issuing them squirt guns for a four alarm blaze. Condoms
RT> just don't hack it. We should stop kidding ourselves._
RT> Header was _There's No Safe Sex_.
This, admittedly, is much better, but it does nto address the issue.
1. I say that ANY mongamous sex will not result in HIV transmission by
a sexu
ally transmitted means.
2. You come back with some nonsense about homosexulas spreading AIDS like
I n
ever said anything. then you quote your bible or at least comment from
it.
3. I tell you not to quote the bible, so...
4. You quot ea doctor about teens getting condoms.
While I do not agree with the doctor either (I have for many owrked int
he fie
ld of sexually tranmitted diseases myself, mostly in Syphilis and HIV) it
does
nto address the issue at hand. To wit:
"Do you believe that monogamous homosexual relationships spread HIV?"
But to further debunk this.....
RT> _For the first ten years of the spreading of the AIDS virus,
RT> according to Harvard's specialists, AIDS had not been caught
RT> through heterosexualizing. But alas, now there is a new form
This is wrong. Most of the African continent's HIV cases are transmitted
hete
rsexually. Many of them in the US are. HIV is an infedction that is transmit
ted by mucuous membrane deposition and later contamination of the blood
stream
. Homosexula activity is better at this, but hetero definitly transmits
the b
ug as well.
RT> 15/93) comes the devistating news of a massive outbreak of a
RT> deadly mutant strain of AIDS which is not caused by the HIV
RT> virus. This one being spread through both homosexual and
RT> heterosexual sex. Consequently whereas a year ago experts
Patently false. HIV is known to alter it's "immune epitopes" which is one
rea
son that it is so difficult to provide and effective vaccine. But the virus
i
tself is little changed.
RT> were predicting that seven years from now, an estimated 40
RT> million would have contracted AIDS, now the estimate is up
RT> to 100 million and rising._
Wrong again. The official CDC report "Morbibdity and MOrtality" shows stats
t
hat indicate an imminent decrease int he number of new cases int he US over
th
e next ten years.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:01:35
--------
EID:6b77 1c3db020
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0318a5
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496187
MG>> Other famous syphilis carriers...
MG>> 1. Ivan the Terrible
MG>> 2. Al Capone
MG>> 3. Beethoven.
SQ> Don't forget Henry VIII. :)
It's odd, but they are not that sure. Henry dounfd sd ig hre hsf iyt, but
som
e diseases leave like pathologies. Medicine has never been an exact scinece,
but in those days it was mreo alchemy than anythign else. He may actually
hav
e died of tuberculosis.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Stewart Harris
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:03:00
--------
EID:2462 1c3db060
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b031a58
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496182
SH>>>In 1975 I have a dream.
SQ> Maybe someone will shoot him...we know what happened to the last
SQ> guy who said
SQ> that.
Bad form. We don't want to be seen as fundies with a gun in their hand
for th
e lord.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Educated?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:11:26
--------
EID:35e1 1c3db160
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b032dc2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d49609d
DR> I asked the Vietnamise sandwich store person at The Sandwich Bag
DR> if he would make for me a cat sandwich on rye. He said "Come
DR> back in two days and I'll have it ready." Hummmmmm.
Those foriegn clowns can't get anything right.
I bet he puts it on white....
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: David Rice
Sub: Jess' DWI
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:13:34
--------
EID:77cb 1c3db1a0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0336e7
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496058
MG>> The police asked him his name, and between screams he says it
MG>> was "Jesus Christ". From the screams we heard over the police
MG>> radio, it sounded as if they were nailing him back up on the
MG>> cross. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.....
DR> Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, and
DR> often don't have to pay for that failure. This person did--- he's
DR> actually lucky for the lesson.
DR> Monday afternoon I went to fetch a sandwich at the shandwich
^^^^^^^^^
This is what you get for driving drunk and trying to buy cat sandwiches
on rye
.
People are just people, but I thought that it was funny that this drunk
that t
ore upe about half a dozen cars thought he was actually the tenative savior
of
the planet. Were I too get drunk, I'd probably tell the cops that I was
Moth
er Teresa or something.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love...
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:17:26
--------
EID:329a 1c3db220
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b033ca2
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e6ba24
JF> Who says the crusades were "Christian"? I feel they were a
The Crusaders did.
JF> In regard to the flood, death has never been a part of God's
JF> original intent for humanity. Moses did proclaim the coming rain
JF> for many years. I feel that God was grieved over those that
JF> died. He said that the world would never be destroyed by a flood
JF> again.
Get real. KId's stories about rainbow origins are just that...stories.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: What's in "Bob's" Pipe?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:22:50
--------
EID:aa5a 1c3db2c0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b03478f
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d494026
CD> What IS that stuff he smokes, anyway?
Money.
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Assurance or is it really that whey?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:24:26
--------
EID:51f5 1c3db300
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b034d18
JH>> (Of course, the Mormons will tell you that not only does
JH>> God have a penis, but it's white like He is and
JH>> circumcised.)
MG>> I wonder what THAT surgeon charged.
ML> "No charge. And...hey...keep the tip!"
In which case he would have gotten stiffed on the tip.
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:25:29
--------
EID:ac2c 1c3db320
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b035086
DC>>>> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>>>> Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>>> +Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away
ML>>> for Jeeeeeesus!
MG>>> +Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
ML>> +Origin: Ultraviolent Network: Gunning down doctors for
ML>> Jesus.
MG>> +Origin:Guilt Network! Jewish Mothers for Jesus and Chicken
MG>> Soup.
ML> +Origin: Goy Network!: Putzes and schlemiels for Jesus!
+Origin: STAPH NETWORK! Drizzeling Shits for Jesus.
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:28:20
--------
EID:42ac 1c3db380
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b0354b3
REPLY: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
Hail Satan, Johnny.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fear And Loathing...not!
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:32:40
--------
EID:a14b 1c3db400
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b036bce
REPLY: 1:247/133 0e8db195
MG>>MG>>to an eternity of hell for 70 odd years of "sin"? It jsut
MG>>MG>>doesn't
MG>> SB> I think of it as Him saving those that believe in Him.
MG>> SB> He does not force anyone to spend eternity with Him.
SB>
MG>>So, badd things do not happen to those that believe?
SB> On earth? Of course bad things happen to those who believe.
SB> Eleven of the twelve apostles were martyred.
We're getting close to the point here.....
You claim that our life on earth is unimportant, but for a life of sin,
your g
od will condemn us to an eternity of damnation. So either your god is unjust,
or the life on earth is much more important than you imply.
Therefore, bad things that happen to those that believe would be an abominatio
n. Life is important, the belief is important, but these people suffered.
It
makes no sense.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:40:03
--------
EID:bff8 1c3db500
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b03764d
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
JW> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates
JW> with us Christians rather than some other religious group?
JW> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than
JW> intellect and this
JW> hacks you off.
JW> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a
JW> possibility) c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
JW> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
JW> e. None of the above.
The major reason is that fundamentalist xtians are much mroe judgemental
and t
herefore easier to fight off. Those that are of a "black and white" nature
ar
e easy to laugh at when you show themt he shades of grey. Fundies of some
rel
igions can be this way but are less plentiful here. Many religions do not
off
er a fundamentalist viewpoint.
This forum does nto bash xtians as much as it bashes those that are too
narrow
minded to consider anything but their own way or seeing things.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:49:03
--------
EID:c123 1c3db620
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b038b36
MG>> Anyone that pesters others with "good news" is a fundy. You
MG>> claim that believers and non believers should let each other
MG>> believe as they will? why go out and spread your fables
MG>> and bother people?
JM> I'm not spreading fables to people who won't listen. If you
JM> didn't
JM> want to debate religion you wouldn't be here :)
One of the NT's provisos (according ot some other xtians here) is to spread
th
e Good News. I don't want to hear it. People don't, in general, wnat to
hear
about it...even those thta count themselves as christian.
I am here for one thing. I want good, sound, true evidence of god. Evidence
of god that is not in bible quotes, that is nto in emotional bleating about
fl
owers and green pastures. Iw ant evidence thta I can send into a journal
an d
have published and get a nobel prize.
Do you have usch evidence? I thought not.
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: GOD$LOVE.GIF
Date: 29 Jan 94 22:52:19
--------
EID:bdb7 1c3db680
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3b038de4
JM> Called the number you left me 214-412-8457 but keep getting
JM> busy signal. Will try later after I listen to Mr. Clinton speak.
JM> That is if he doesn't raise my taxes to high where I can't
JM> afford the long distance call :)
If you have trouble getting in, and your sysop gives permission, I will
upload
it to your BBS.
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:34:00
--------
EID:db0b 1c3c6c40
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b613f
FR>Are the better educated to stand aside and allow the superstitious to
FR>include
FR>them in their bizzare beliefs? Are the better educated to stand and
FR>smile as
FR>the believers in mythology try to teach their mythologies as fact to
FR>the
FR>better educated peoples' children? Or kill the homosexuals? String
FR>up the
FR>blacks?
Is the only way you can defend your views, defining Christianity by the
worst parts of what a few people done? The large majority of Christians
would never think to try and hurt homosexuals, blacks or anyone else. Are
you that insecure in your beliefs?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Fear And Loathing... Not
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:36:01
--------
EID:55a2 1c3c6c80
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6140
FR>sb> So you are saying that you know my Christian friends
FR>sb> better than I do and you know for a fact that they
FR>sb> live in fear? Thats quite the claim!
FR>In fact I understand what motivates you better than you do.
What makes you think that?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Aids
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:04:02
--------
EID:877b 1c3c7080
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6141
FR>sb> Acts such as promiscuous sex and sharing needles
FR>sb> have an impact on who gets AIDS. Do you agree?
FR>First of all, AIDS is not a sexually-transmitted disease. HIV is.
FR>I will refuse to agree. Lesbian homosexuals don't fit the Christian
FR>agenda
FR>well and, in any event, sexual activity may continue unabaited safely
FR>by
FR>taking precautions, negating the Christian demand for sexual
FR>dysfunction (the
FR>risk of infection remains as it always had for the last 10,000
FR>years.)
I think most doctors would disagree with you. While lesbians do seem to
be an exception, most medical experts agree that promiscuous sex does
increase the risk of AIDS. You are also wrong in thinking that taking
precautions makes sexual activity safe. It may lower the risk but it does
not take it away.
FR>"Christian morality," by the way, is a myth concocted by a broad
FR>spectrum of
FR>various interpretations of the classical Christian mythologies. As
FR>you will
FR>doubtless deny, atheist morality (typically situational in scope) is
FR>evidenced the higher morality.
The Bible clearly says that homosexuality, adultery and fornication is
wrong. That is what Christian morality concerning sex is based on.
FR>FR> The classical Christian ideologies were to copulate
FR>FR> freely in accordance with the dictates of one of
FR>FR> the mythologies (as I recall, the so-called "Adam
FR>FR> and Eve" myth.) Puranic zealotry negated the concept
FR>FR> of freely copulating in the United States and, sadly,
FR>FR> such nonsense spread back to the Europan political
FR>FR> environment.
Do you have evidence for this outrageous claim? I do not deny that people
who have called themselves Christians have believed in free sex but this
certainly was not official doctrine of the early church.
FR>FR> When are you going to wake up and realize that Christianity
FR>FR> is the single most deadly force -- historically and in
FR>FR> contemporary times -- on the face of this planet? When are
FR>FR> you going to admit that the Christian ideaologies are
FR>FR> at their very heart deadly and evil?
FR>sb> Never since it is not true.
FR>I'll bet you didn't even blink an eye when you uttered that lie.
FR>Claiming
FR>the Holocaust didn't happen doesn't make it go away, Steve. In like
FR>manor,
FR>claiming that the many inquisistions, crusades, and witch hunts
FR>carried forth
FR>against humanity by Christians, for Christians, justified with the
FR>Christian
FR>pantheon didn't happen will likewise not make it go away.
FR>You are going to claim that "these were false Christians." The
FR>_ideologies_
FR>are deadly, Steve. You can point at the followers of the deadly
FR>ideologies
FR>and complain that it was their fault and you would be quite correct
FR>in doing
FR>so. Yet the ideologies which provided both the motivation and the
FR>justification for their tyrannies against humanity remains.
Any crimes committed in the name of Christianity were completely contrary
to the teachings of Christ. Those people who claimed to be Christians
could do whatever they wanted and it still would not change what Christ
taught. Christianity should be judged by what Christ taught not by what
people who used the name of Christianity for their own purposes did.
FR>FR> Since you have claimed that homosexuality is an abnormal
FR>FR> life style, you'll have to provide the evidence as the
FR>FR> burdon of proof rests upon you.
FR>sb> Why is my claim the outrageous one?
FR>Because it is evidenced false. You could use that evidence to your
FR>advantage
FR>if you knew what you were talking about and I will not provide the
FR>hint as I
FR>might very well enjoy using it against you. (Like a chess
FR>game you
FR>will make the move I expect you to make and I will play my gambit.)
FR>I will say, however, that your claim of homosexuality being abnormal
FR>is
FR>evidenced false for another reason than the one I am thinking of:
FR>people are
FR>homosexual. You may very well wish to play the numbers game and
FR>claim that
FR>it requires 51% or better of the populace to be fags before they're
FR>"normal"
FR>yet that isn't required. People are fags so that negates your claim
FR>that it
FR>is not normal.
I do not see how the fact that there are homosexuals makes it normal.
There are people with multiple personalities, does that make them normal
too?
FR>Before you take your finger off of that piece, take a note that I
FR>covered
FR>that avenue of defense as well: Mental maladies in individuals are
FR>considered "normal" and "abnormal" through many conventions.
FR>Homosexuals are
FR>neither medicallly nor mentally suffering from a disorder.
Do you have evidence for this claim?
FR>FR> I accuse you, Steve. I accuse you of harboring hatred and
FR>FR> intolerance towards homosexuals. While not a criminal offense,
FR>FR> you seem unwilling to stand trial. It _may_ be that you
FR>FR> feel guilty and so can not address the issue.
FR>sb> I have no hatred towards homosexuals.
FR>And yet you feel as though there is something wrong with them, right?
FR> And
FR>that is a belief which is underscored through both your written
FR>mythologies
FR>as well as your internal distaste at the contemplation of homosexual
FR>behavior.
Distaste for a behaviour does not equate hatred for an individual.
FR>sb> I work with a homosexual and if you were to ask her if she
FR>sb> thought I was a bigot, I guarentee you she would say no.
FR>Have you told her that you think she needs help? For her immortal
FR>"soul?"
As far as I am concerned, her biggest problem is not her homosexuality.
She has the same problem as most of the people that I work with, they are
not born again. If I somehow "convinced" her to give up homosexuality,
she would be no closer to heaven.
FR>sb> Yes there is a difference between homosexuals and homosexuality.
FR>sb> If I had a son who was gay, I would still love him even though
FR>sb> I disagreed with his lifestyle.
FR>You continue to fail to understand that it isn't a "life style" any
FR>more than
FR>it is a selection of a profession. It may entirely be a generic
FR>predisposistion or even a natal environmental factor. Claims that
FR>homos have
FR>been "saved" by "turning them around" are entirely bunk (and
FR>debunked.)
While I do not think that people can be saved by turning them around, I
do
believe that some people have given up homosexuality. I have heard
testimonies from both Christian and secular sources concerning this. If
you have evidence that these testimonies were false, I would be glad to
see it.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Political Witchcraft
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:16:03
--------
EID:2385 1c3c7200
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6142
DS>Well, I don't know anything about the NDP...what is it, exactly?
The New Democratic Party (NDP) is a party that has typical socialist
values such as increased government involvement in all areas of life.
They proposed making nursery school mandatory and starting it at an
earlier age because they believe that they can raise the children
better than the parents. One of the reasons for the NDPs lack of results
in the federal election was the hostile feelings of Ontario towards our
first NDP provincial government. They have screwed up so badly that they
have hurt the chances of the NDP in Canada for a long time. They fired
a
MPP (Member of Provincial Parliment) for appearing in a newspaper with his
jacket off and yet they supported a MPP who publically slandered a doctor.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Prepare the way of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Jesus And Paul
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:20:04
--------
EID:44f7 1c3c7280
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6143
JH> Jesus was extremely vocal in condemning the "rich".
JH> Paul dropped this completely and embraced and supported the
JH>existing
JH> social structure of his day.
JH> There is nothing in the sayings of Jesus that supports Paul's
JH> somewhat backward attidude towards women.
Jesus said nothing that contradicted Pauls statement about women. As for
being backward, it was not backward when it was written. These are not
contradictions. They are examples of one saying something about a certain
subject and the other not saying anything. Do you have any real
contradictions?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ In the beginning was the Word...
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: F R Kelly
Sub: Faith
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:26:05
--------
EID:e6fb 1c3c7340
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6144
FR>SB>That Jesus was the Son of God and that He died on the cross to
FR>save me
FR>SB>from the penalty of my sins.
FR> But you hadn't committed the sins, so Jesus didn't know you from bat
FR>droppings. How can we save him if he hasn't been born? Now there's
FR>something
FR>to think about.
Since God is all knowing, He knew all the sins I would commit even before
the world was created.
FR> The entire concept of salvation came about because Jesus' teachings
FR>were too
FR>hard to follow so Paul created his "get out of retribution free" crap
FR>and the
FR>goys bought it. If you take enough time to do a complete examination
FR>of the
FR>New Testament and its' history, this fact is clear.
You are allowed your opinion but I strongly disagree with your
interpretation. Paul does not contradict the teachings of Jesus which
makes your "fact" a bit less clear.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ You're the solid rock on which I stand
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:34:06
--------
EID:ffcd 1c3c7440
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6145
WM> CD> "And what is God like?", asked the President in an awed tone of
WM>voice.
WM> CD> Replied the captain after a minute's silence, "She's black."
WM> And wouldn't that torque the jaws of the fundys!
There was a church in Toronto (I think) a while back that was doing a play
about Jesus and they decided to use a black woman to portray Jesus.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Prophesy
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:38:07
--------
EID:821b 1c3c74c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0b6146
HP> SB>The large horn is Alexander the Great.
HP>Doesn't say that, though, does it, Steve?
HP> SB>The four horns are Ptolemy I who ruled Egypt and North Africa,
HP> SB>Seleucus who ruled Syria and Mesopotamia, Lysimachus who ruled
HP> SB>Thrace and Asia Minor and Cassander who ruled Macedon.
HP>Gee, doesn't say that either, does it, Steve?
HP> SB>The stern faced king is Antiochus IV Epiphanes who tried to
HP> SB>destroy the Jewish faith and who died not from human power, but
HP> SB>from illness.
HP>Doesn't say that either, does it, Steve?
HP>Aren't these _your interpretations_, Steve, and not what the book
HP>says?
It just happens to fit all the historical facts. It looks to me like this
was a pretty specific prophesy which came true.
HP> SB>Josephus describes the book of Daniel existing before Alexander
HP>had
HP> SB>completely conquered the Persians as seen in Antiquities XI.5:
HP>"And
HP> SB>when the book of Daniel was showed to him, wherein Daniel
HP>declared that
HP> SB>one of the Greeks would destroy the army of Persians, he supposed
HP>that
HP> SB>himself to be the person intended..."
HP>Amazing that Flavius Josephus, 37 AD - ~95 AD, could have chronicled
HP>what Alexander III (aka Alexander the Great), king of Macedon, said,
HP>since Alexander lived from 356 BC - 323 BC, about 300 years earlier.
HP>The boy must have had _real_ sharp hearing...
I guess we will have to scrap all those great Dead Sea Scrolls books that
John Musselwhite has been reading since they are writing about something
that happened a couple of thousand years ago.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Pope
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:17:00
--------
EID:20a2 1c3d5a20
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b3
RB>Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the
RB>current pope,
RB>was one involved with the gas chambers during the holocaust. I will
RB>have to
RB>dig up the info I had on this!! Take Care!
Never heard of that. If you have evidence, I would like to see it.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ In Jesus' name we shall be strong
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Gospel Of Thomas
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:23:01
--------
EID:f542 1c3d5ae0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b4
LS>Thomas is an odd one, all that stuff about making female male and 2
LS>into
LS>one. I just wish I had a way of determining what the meaning was to
LS>the
LS>writer/reader back then.
The Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic Gospel and therefore you would have to
look at the beliefs of the Gnostics to understand what the meaning was to
the writer/reader back then. As far as I know, it was never accepted by
the Christian church.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Prepare the way of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Grace
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:37:02
--------
EID:8054 1c3d5ca0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b5
LS>LS>What did
LS>LS>he say about grace? Humm, NOTHING! Why is it that God supposedly
LS>LS>incarnate
LS>LS>never said squat about grace.
LS>SB>Really? John 3:16 seems to be talkinga about grace.
LS>Seems is the operative word all right. Le's look at the setting:
LS>John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how
LS>shall
LS>ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
LS>John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came
LS>down from
LS>heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
LS>John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
LS>so
LS>must the Son of man be lifted up:
LS>John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
LS>have
LS>eternal life.
LS>Jesus says that he is to be a symbol LIKE Moses' serpent and that
LS>those that
LS>understand the symbology and believe in the teachings it represents
LS>will
LS>have life eternal. Then we have your verse:
It does not say that those who believe in the teachings but rather that
those who believe in him (Jesus) will have eternal life.
LS>John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
LS>Son,
LS>that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
LS>everlasting
LS>life.
LS>John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the
LS>world; but
LS>that the world through him might be saved.
LS>John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
LS>believeth
LS>not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
LS>the
LS>only begotten Son of God.
LS>What evidence do you have that Jesus actually spoke the above three
LS>verses.
LS>How do you know that these are not John's editorial comments just as
LS>are all
LS>the prostelizing at the beginning of the book of John? And if Jesus
LS>did
LS>actually speak these words, then would they not be a clear
LS>contridiction of
LS>another of his teachings:
LS>Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
LS>shall
LS>be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall
LS>not be
LS>forgiven unto men.
LS>Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it
LS>shall be
LS>forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall
LS>not be
LS>forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
LS>Now perhaps you can explain how one who blasphemies by saying "I do
LS>not
LS>believe in Jesus" is both condemned and yet forgiven without
LS>believing. I
LS>suspect that you can only remove this contridiction by trying to make
LS>Jesus
LS>and the Holy Ghost one and the same. Only in this way can both
LS>passages be
LS>true. In fact I suspect it is this very problem that prompted early
LS>trinity
LS>theology to include the holy ghost. You've still got a problem, if
LS>they are
LS>in fact the same enitity, how could the first half of Matt 12:32 EVER
LS>be
LS>true? Oh what tangled webs we weive, eh? Looking forward to see what
LS>form
LS>your web will take.
What is this is saying about speaking against the Son of Man is that if
a
person repents they can be forgiven for that sin but no forgiveness can
be
given for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. As for why one is allowed and the
other not, I have no idea. I have never claimed to have understood
everything God does. However, there is still no contradiction between
this and John 3:16.
Another place were Jesus talks about grace is in Luke 23:43 where He tells
the criminal that they will be in paradise together. Now I doubt that the
Romans allowed this guy down off his cross so he could do some good deeds
to earn his way to Heaven. This guy probally did not even know the moral
truths Jesus had taught. All he knew is he believed who Jesus was and he
was saved by that faith.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ You're the solid rock on which I stand
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Gospel Of John
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:39:03
--------
EID:4bd6 1c3d5ce0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b6
JH> John's gospel differs so widely from the other three that the
JH>author
JH> was most likely totaly unaware of the existance of any other
JH>written
JH> account of Jesus's life. Written as a collection of cameos (sort of
JH>a
JH> Jesus Christ's Greatest Hits), this one is the clearest example of
JH>a
JH> gospel that was not written by the person that tradition attributes
JH> the text to.
How is this so clear? I disagree with your statement that the author was
totally unaware of other written accounts since it does cover some of the
same accounts as the synoptics.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: B'nai Noach
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:46:04
--------
EID:7b59 1c3d5dc0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b7
JL>The 7 commandments of B'nai Noach:
JL>1) Equity. (i.e. The establishment of courts.)
JL>2) The prohibitation against blaspheming the Name,
JL>3) ' ' idolatry,
JL>4) ' ' immorality,
^^^^^^^^^^
How exactly is immorality defined in this context?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Bible
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:51:05
--------
EID:3807 1c3d5e60
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b8
JM> The Anglo-Saxon period contains the paraphrases of the
JM>biblical
JM> narrative and date from about 670 C.E. to Caedmon, a herdsman
JM>for
JM> the Abbey of Whitby, and extend to a translation of the
JM>Hepateuch
JM> (Genesis to Judges) by Aelfric, Abbot of Eynsham at about
JM>1020
JM> C.E.. These translations/paraphrases were of the latin
JM>Vulgate.
JM> Apparently, four complete manuscripts and five fragmentary
JM>ones
JM> still exist from the 11th to 13th centuries, which falls into
JM>the
JM> Middle English category. There are also many "Psalters" in
JM> existence with the Latin text and an interlinear Anglo-Saxon
JM> translation (also called "gloss") beside it, the earliest
JM>dating
JM> from about the seventh century with the gloss added a few
JM>centuries
JM> later. Exactly WHERE these copies are I cannot say without
JM>doing a bit of research.
If you find any books that contain copies of these texts, please let me
know.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:53:06
--------
EID:154a 1c3d5ea0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7b9
LE> SB> Sin is anything that separates from God. It is anything that is
LE> SB> contrary to the wishes of God.
LE> What if your wishes are the wishes of G*d?
It has to be more than your wish. You could wish you stopped lying and
God could wish you stopped lying but if you did not actually stop you are
still sinning even though you have the same wish.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Missionaries.
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:55:07
--------
EID:7352 1c3d5ee0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7ba
LE> Missionaries also have a tendancy to bring viruses along for
LE>the
LE> ride.
Of course you have evidence that this is the current practice, right?
Having been involved in some missionary work I look forward to your reply.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ My Lord and my God!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Disproven?
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:01:08
--------
EID:a207 1c3d6020
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7bb
DC> DC>> Do you believe that your god is omnipotent and all-good? Also,
DC>do
DC> DC>> you
DC> DC>> believe in heaven?
DC> SB> Yes to all three.
DC>Is there sin in heaven? That is, once a person gets to heaven do
DC>they ever
DC>sin?
I can not know for sure. I would tend to say no, yet Lucifer and his
angels sinned while they were in Heaven.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:12:09
--------
EID:54df 1c3d6180
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7bc
HP>Steve still thinks George Washington chopped down the cherry tree for
HP>a
HP>silver dollar to throw across the Potomac. Of course, Steve also
HP>believes that then George walked across the river to retrieve his
HP>coin...
You mean he didn't?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Jesus
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:17:10
--------
EID:1fa6 1c3d6220
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f0ce7bd
JV> > JH> I've often wondered why they don't call it Paulianity.
JV> > Perhaps, because we do not worship Paul?
JV>But you accept his word as gospel. Personally, if one of my
JV>persecutors
JV>suddenly turned all friendly, I would still be hesitant to let him
JV>write a
JV>major portion of my holy book.
We don't accept his word as gospel, we accept his word as epistle. ;-]
I am sure that many people in the early church did have trouble accepting
Paul as a brother after his conversion. But God looks at people in a
different way than we do, He can ignore their past and focus on their
present so that they may serve him now. Too bad we can not be more like
him and look at how people are now rather than remembering only what they
have done before.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: David Rice
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:09:00
--------
EID:10ce aa0bd3c0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 0e8c6eeb
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496027
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> They belong to themselves, not to any future. Humans
> are rather
> ignorant. They tend to believe that whatever they can
> take belongs
> to them. We look at nature and instead of seeing it as
> it is, we see
> it as "resources" to be squandered as if it belonged
> to us.
> Forests must be conserved and protected for their own
> sake, and just
> incidently our own, not for our sake and incidently
> their own.
Why? Perhaps Protagoras went too far when he said that man is the measure
of
all things, but surely, even if other standards exist, it is unreasonable
for
us to use any but our own.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 23:01:50
--------
EID:e99e 1c3db820
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Johnny Mckinney <=-
FR> ~*~ Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of
FR> us. - Patrick Humphrey
Just finger my account at is.rice.edu and you'll see the address to which
those royalties should be sent...;-)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 23:10:28
--------
EID:cb77 1c3db940
-=> Quoting Johnny Mckinney to Patrick Humphrey <=-
-=> Quoting Patrick Humphrey to Johnny Mckinney <=-
-=> Quoting Johnny Mckinney to All <=-
JM> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
JM> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
JM> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really exists.
PH> Just because you can't think of a reason doesn't mean there *isn't*
a
PH> reason. You're one of the ones babbling "IS TOO! IS TOO!" and I'm
PH> one of the folks asking you to back up your babbling with some
PH> verifiable evidence. So far, you and your brethren haven't come up
JM> This is fun.. I'm not babbling.. And I can't provide evidence
I'm not exactly surprised by that...and in my opinion, you're babbling.
Deal with it.
PH> with very much.
JM> I think the non-believers who respond to this echo are lured by the
JM> Holy Spirit to satisfy their deep down hunger to come to Christ.
JM> They are afraid to fully commit to HIM and change their lifestyles.
PH> At least they know what the purpose of this echo *is*, unlike the
PH> little fundybabblers who exhibit their usual Pavlovian reaction to any
PH> name containing "Holy". Read the EchoList first.
JM> I read the echo list.. What is your interpretation of this echo?
You read it? Did it mention anything about "no one other than self-described
Christian inerrantists allowed"? You'll have to try harder than you're
doing to convince me that you actually *did* read it. Answer my question,
if
you want me to bother with you any further.
JM> No, I'm not a fundy. I don't like to debate either. These are just
JM> my sincere observations. I respect every non-believers right not
JM> to believe. They in turn should also respect believers. Believers
JM> are instructed to pass on and spread "THE Good News." We often are
JM> criticized for this but we are use to it. Christians have been
JM> criticized for about 2000 years now.
PH> You can spread your manure all you like -- what you and your fellow
PH> travelers have yet to begin to comprehend in that 2000 years is that
PH> *we have an equal right to ignore you if we want to*. Bellow about
PH> love while damning anything that disagrees with you -- is it any wonder
PH> people are finding more worthwhile things with which to occupy their
PH> lives?
Interesting -- nothing to say to that? Nothing at all? (Or are you worn
out
from moving your lips that much?)
JM> ... Johnny McKinney...BBS Novice Extraordinaire
PH> Indeed.
JM> Cute
Hey, you set yourself up for it...so if you want to start pointing fingers,
start with the bozo looking out of the mirror at you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 23:12:59
--------
EID:cb77 1c3db980
-=> Quoting Johnny Mckinney to Hector Plasmic <=-
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Johnny Mckinney <=-
JM> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
JM> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
JM> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really
JM>exists.
HP> We like to shoot fish in a barrel, of course. Character flaw. BTW,
HP> it was the non-believers (what a wimpy word) who invented the echo for
HP> the purpose of shooting you fundy fish in your inflated, empty little
HP> heads.
JM> I think the non-believers who respond to this echo are lured by
JM>the Holy Spirit to satisfy their deep down hunger to come to Christ.
HP> ROFL!!
JM> No, I'm not a fundy.
HP> ROFL!!!
HP> -!- Tear a new one
HP> ! Origin: Practice safe religion: say NO. (1:380/16)
JM> I love you too, Marty
I'd hope you've talked with your wife about that -- I thought you were
a fundy, and they're not allowed thoughts like that, you know? :-)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 30 Jan 94 11:02:21
--------
EID:9bb1 1c3e5840
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Patrick Humphrey <=-
PH> PH>In other words, you and Rob seem to share the belief that only
PH> PH>members of
PH> PH>your cult can be called "Christian".
PH> SB> That depends on what you consider my "cult". If you mean
PH> SB> Christianity, yes you must belong to Christianity to be a
PH>Christian.
PH> SB> Thats not to hard to figure out. If you mean the denomination
PH>of the
PH> SB> church I worship at, that is not what I am saying at all. I
PH>believe
PH> SB> that there are born again Christians in just about every
PH>denomination
PH> SB> (including Anglicans).
PH>And people wonder why so-called mainstream religion is losing its
PH>grip, too...
PH>Take your stinking theocracy and shove it. I ain't worshipping here
PH>no more.
SB> What exactly is there about my message which offended you so much?
Nuttin' much...just this delusion of yours that your particular brand
of fundies have infiltrated as many of the sects as they can. It sounds
more
like a viral infection, to me...and if it's really so, then it's only
natural to expect the so-called mainstream religion to keep losing adherents
as the wackos take over. Can you see where that process leads?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Mythology
Date: 30 Jan 94 11:04:24
--------
EID:2e45 1c3e5880
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Patrick Humphrey <=-
PH> SB> Why do so many people in the world feel the need to try and
PH>"debunk"
PH> SB> and insult someones beliefs? Why do they care if someone does
PH>believe
PH> SB> in something supernatural?
PH>I couldn't care less *what* you want to believe in -- it's when you
PH>start
PH>thinking your myth gives you the right to force *me* to act like you
PH>think
PH>I should that causes me to get the howitzers out and start loading...
SB> I do not advocate forcing someone to live like a Christian.
I hope you don't...it might be a matter of life or death, given the right
conditions. (It *can* happen here -- but it doesn't have to.)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Michael Malone
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mike Warnke
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:08:10
--------
EID:377c 1c3d9900
MSGID: 1:114/7.0 d4af9811
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 08958fcd
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Michael Malone:
FR> interesting. If I find anything, I'll post it to "All"
FR> under the subject, "Papal Bastards."
I hope to be reading that soon!
FR> * Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
Hmmmm....once when I was younger, I wanted to have Johnny Winter's baby
but I
could not make up my mind between him and his brother Edgar.
Michael
--- timEd-B9
* Origin: The Migrant BBS Phx. AZ (602) 230-8094 (1:114/7)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Adam...
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:04:58
--------
EID:0df0 1c3d6880
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4aa68d
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:350/401 86362DAD
A pregnant pause ensued as Dan Ceppa shared a conception -- Adam... -- with
Do
n Martin on 25 Jan 94 06:28:
> DC> society. Overall, the bible teaches that woman are to
> DC> be subservient to the male members.
> DM> Lorena Bobbitt is apparently no follower of the bible . . .
DC> She took the position of Delilah, but trimmed a lot closer
DC> and lower.
DC> Though she may have been cruely treated, I find her action
DC> and subsequent acquital to be rather a disturbing message to
DC> society in general. What ever happened to people be
DC> responsible for their actions/situations and correcting
DC> them, rather than controlled by them?
Your question implies that there once was a time in human society when re
venge and/or simply striking out in rage was not a significant force. Persona
lly, I find the prosecution's insistence "why didn't she avail herself of
the
law?" pretty fatuous in the face of the fact that she had been threatened
by h
er husband with exportation as an undesirable alien if she didn't behave.
Giv
en no great competence in the English language, her view of American law
was u
nlikely to be a very trusting one.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Discussion
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:10:51
--------
EID:0186 1c3d6940
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4aa6e3
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Mike Staab shared a conception -- Discussion
-- wit
h Don Martin on 27 Jan 94 11:22:
>> teaches.
>> MS> It is a man made invention.
>>
>> And the Bible itself is NOT a man-made invention?
MS> No, it isn't. However what would convince you that it wasn't?
Moses did NOT write the first five books? John the Divine did not write
the last one? Aren't these guys people?
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: jonny vee
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:14:54
--------
EID:3bdb 1c3d69c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4aa809
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 0d01c0e5
A pregnant pause ensued as jonny vee shared a conception -- ATHIESTS..WHY
BOTH
ER? -- with Don Martin on 26 Jan 94 03:00:
>> This echo was CREATED by non-believers. We find fundies funny.
>> And an apparently inexhaustible supply of them keeps the barrel full.
>> I see you've just got here . . . .
jv> Now, dammit, you of all people should know this echo wasn't
jv> CREATED. IT EVOLVED! I think I even still have some one-celled
jv> messages in the old archives....(grin)
I stand corrected. Were those first messages capable of photosynthesis
o
r did they simply extract chemical sustinance from the bedrock of fundy
blockh
eads?
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Santa and eight flying reindeer
Date: 30 Jan 94 09:30:29
--------
EID:c209 1c3e4bc0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4bc4df
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d46d4b5
A pregnant pause ensued as Richard Thorneycroft shared a conception -- Santa
a
nd eight flying re -- with Wayne Michaels on 26 Jan 94 12:54:
RT> that _there is NO evidence_? Their sworn testimony is evidence.
Evidence in a court of law, yes. But scientific evidence does not accept
anecdote, and around here scientists and not lawyers are the role models.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Galen Bayne-allison
Sub: ALF
Date: 30 Jan 94 09:33:09
--------
EID:ecc2 1c3e4c20
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4bc547
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:238/430@fidonet 2d472ba6
A pregnant pause ensued as Galen Bayne-allison shared a conception -- ALF
-- w
ith Scott Charles on 26 Jan 94 20:49:
GB> I agree with ya Scott. Cats are real smart!
Possibly even smart enough to quote the person they are addressing on an
international echo.
---
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--------
From: David Strickland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Rest of the Mormon Debate
Date: 26 Jan 94 19:05:22
--------
EID:fa52 1c3a98a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d49c305
Fredric Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: Rest of the Mormon Debate
FR> Greetings, David!
FR> I LIKE IT! The Mormon's rhetoric is __perfect__! Tip a glance:
She's quite good with words, and knows how to defend her position very well
(read impossible to get the mysticism out of her).
C> There are at least twenty three references in the Bible
C> dealing with false prophets. Some of these references
C> are specific tests to determine if the prophet is a true
C> prophet of God. We will apply just two of these tests to
C> Joseph Smith.
??> Perhaps the tests you refer to will show
??> up in another post. They fail to show up here.
FR> The rhetoric preamble is just so pat. Neat!
This was the crowning jewel to the series of posts, the debate continues
as
we type [at least that's my guess, based on the fact that they where at
it
today]. Unfortunately VBBS doesn't have a BlueWave mail door, so I can
only
get QWK packets, and each day I loose what the previous days messages where.
C> The issue in these verses is whether the prophet
C> leads the people after another god.
FR> Which is funny because no Christian is willing to admit to the fact
FR> that they worship a pantheon and that the pantheon they worship is a
FR> conglomeration of other religions' deities.
I've yet to see any xtian (Mormon or otherwise) admit that, even when shown
damned good evidence.
m> Joseph Smith does NOT teach of ANOTHER God than that found in the
m> Bible. He teaches of the SAME God as that found in the Bible, but NOT
m> the same god that erroneous traditions and interpretations claim God
m> to be.
FR> The Mormon is correct. Mormonism is a synthetic religion which uses
FR> the same pantheon as Christianity thus making itself a Christian brand
FR> name. The additional mythologies and different ideological constructs
FR> do not detract from that fact.
The xtian has stepped up the verbal abuse against the Mormon, did just call
them a cult, now they are of the Occult, and Satan worshipers. Perfect
example of Xtian love.
m> Actually, our understanding is that Elohim
m> lives on a planet near the STAR Kolob.
FR> He doesn't know he's talking about a group of deities by using that
FR> name.
She. The Mormon is female, the xtian is male. Probably doesn't know, and
doesn't care.
David
!*! The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, but He
overthrows the words of the faithless.
Quoter v1.3
... "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
---
þ TLX v3.30 þ
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: David Strickland
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:21:18
--------
EID:fb9a 1c3c52a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d49c306
Chuck Dubman Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: Paluxy Revisited...
DS> Not much is said about the creationist, and you don't hear much from
the
DS> creationist about it either. Creationist (or anybody
DS> else for that matter)
DS> aren't allowed to setup any "stands" with out
DS> permission from the State Park.
DS> Most Park officials would probably laugh them out of the park.
CD> The Martians typically make a 1st Ammendment case out of this, and
CD> waste federal tax dollars (yours and mine) in court until victory is
CD> at hand. Some park somewhere in Texas I heard about has a Creation
CD> museum set up next to a federally owned paleontological site.
Unless it was been put up within the last few years, or I've not been paying
attention as we entered the park, I haven't seen any creationist museum.
David
!*! I don't believe in god because I don't believe in Mother Goose.
- Clarence Darrow
Quoter v1.3
... - If your parents didn't have children, chances are you won't either.
---
þ TLX v3.30 þ
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: David Strickland
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:28:10
--------
EID:f7a7 1c3c5380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d49c307
Marty Leipzig Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: +Origin:
ML> David Strickland, who thought juvenile water was kid stuff,said to
ML> Marty Leipzig:
DS> Marty Leipzig Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
DS> About: +Origin:
GG> ... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC> ... +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> ... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML> ... +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for the
DS> DS Almighty Lard
ML> +Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony for
ML> Heyzeus!
DS> +Origin: Sissy Britches: Cowards for Crust.
ML> +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
DS> +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Taking over the World for His Piety.
ML> +Origin: STUFFING NETWORK: Turkeys for Jezuz!
DS> +Origin: SECOND LAW OF THERMO-DYNAMICS: Changing the Laws of the
DS> Universe for Stupidity.
ML> +Origin: SCOTCH NETWORK: Humic acid and loch water for Hayzeus!
ML> (Doc Goldberg's gonna get me for this one...)
Can't wait to see the reply your gonna get for that one.
+Origin: Social Theocracy: Removing your Rights for Jaaayyyssuuss.
DS> Ok, so it didn't fit on 1 line, sue me.
ML> Talk to counselor Jones.
I'll do that...
David
!*! We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
Quoter v1.3
... Just think of all the things we haven't thought of yet
---
þ TLX v3.30 þ
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Re: Inventions of man
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:01:02
--------
EID:cdf6 1c3ca820
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af5595c
MS> Mr. Plasmic, what would convince you that the Bible is exactly
MS> what it states it is? I can provide much information that shows
MS> that the Bible has elements about it that could not be from human
MS> origin, but I strongly suspect that your really not interested in
MS> that. Ask me what you will, if your man enough to put your
I am. Show us that some deity wrote the bible.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Continuing the message...
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:02:59
--------
EID:cebc 1c3ca840
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af55d9e
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e525e8
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays,
JF> lesbians, etc.
How can he? He's dead.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: The deathcult always rings twice
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:07:47
--------
EID:3a34 1c3ca8e0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af569f2
ML> ... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
OK...you win.
...Fundies: Litterbugs on the Information Superhighway.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:08:39
--------
EID:968f 1c3ca900
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af56d67
GG>> ... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC>> ... +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for
DC>> Jeezus!
DS>> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC>> ... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for
DC>> Jeezus!
DS>> ... +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML>> ... +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications
ML>> for Hayzeus!
DS>> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for
DS>> the DS Almighty Lard
ML>> +Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony
ML>> for Heyzeus!
DS>> +Origin: Sissy Britches: Cowards for Crust.
ML>> +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
DS>> +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Taking over the World for His
DS>> Piety.
ML>> +Origin: STUFFING NETWORK: Turkeys for Jezuz!
/DS>> +Origin: SECOND LAW OF THERMO-DYNAMICS: Changing the Laws
DS>> of the Universe for Stupidity.
ML> +Origin: SCOTCH NETWORK: Humic acid and loch water for
ML> Hayzeus!
+Origin:Wild Turkey Network: Fowl Libations for Jesus.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Rabbit food juice...
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:10:05
--------
EID:396b 1c3ca940
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af570c0
MG>> No way. Dr. Browns Celery Tonic.
ML> Eesh. "Celery Tonic"? Washed down with what? A Rutabaga
ML> chaser?
It isn't bad stuff, except that they put it in cans now. Try it with a
good P
astrami if you ever make it over to The Three Brothers.
ML> Someone hand me a Foster's....
Hmmmm...did you say "Old Forrester"?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Michael Fefer
Sub: Value of pi?
Date: 28 Jan 94 21:21:28
--------
EID:9670 1c3caaa0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3af589fd
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 1d123051
MF> Could someone inform me how the Babble says that the value of pi
MF> is 3? It sounds pretty amusing..
It describes an alter that was made inthe shape of s cirlce where the circumfe
rance divided by the diameter was 3.0.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: David Rice
Sub: HOMICIDE: FBI Investigated by Idaho
Date: 27 Jan 94 05:52:00
--------
EID:1087 0475d180
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d47a212
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jesse C. Jones <=-
DR> Have you been following the "Top law officials may face charges
DR> in Weaver standoff" news from Idaho?
Yes.
DR> What does all this do to your "USA=Moral, USSR=Immoral" belief?
Our federal law enforcement agencies are peopled with unprincipled cowboy
s
and cowgirls. It is a system seriously in need of overhaul. I am presently
handling a similar case against the DEA.
That still does not change the clear (to me and most people) that a
constitutional democratic republic is far superior morally to a totalitarian
regime, which was also corrupt.
DR> Why have you failed to reply to the articles I've forwarded to
DR> you concerning USA's tests of radiation on its citizens?
As I suppose you have learned by now, I _did_ reply, on the day I first
saw the message.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Tony Nasrallah
Sub: The "Moral Superiority" of USA, #1 of 2
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:21:00
--------
EID:1087 04778840
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912ca
-=> Quoting Tony Nasrallah to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JCJ> And still it remains true that the USSR was an evil nation . .
.
TN> It is certainly absurd to say that the Russians are evil.
No. I never said that the Russian people are evil. I said that their
former government was evil.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Suzy Quarrella
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 28 Jan 94 06:31:01
--------
EID:1087 04778841
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912cb
-=> Quoting Suzy Quarrella to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JCJ> But religion is about relationships. It is _not_
JCJ> a private matter, at least so far as the Biblical religions JCJ>
SQ> (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are JCJ> concerned. It is what
SQ> binds the community together.
SQ> What about those in the community that do not belong (and choose not
SQ> to belong) to a certain religion? Are they no longer a part of the
SQ> community? Are they treated as outcasts? . . .
SQ> What about those that don't belong? How can a community really be
SQ> bound together if everyone sticks with their own religious group?
You are using "community," it appears, to refer to a geographic area, and
that is not the sense in which I need it.
In our own society, we encounter various groups of people -- the people
w
e
work with, our circle of friends, our neighbors, our clubs or lodges, perhaps
the parents of our children's classmates. Those of us belonging to a house
of
worship have chosen to be a part of that particular community. But belonging
to a group need not, and IMO should not, require any attitudes or actions
of
exclusion. In our houses of worship, we welcome any and all who care to
join
us on whatever level we can. Through ecumenical activities, we relate to
people in other houses of worship.
If we treat outsiders as outcasts, we are treating our Lord as an outcast
,
as Matthew 25:31-46 says.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Allegory?
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:54:02
--------
EID:1087 04778842
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912cc
sq> Will he chime "allegory" yet again?
Where have I ever claimed anything was allegory?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Lies
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:56:03
--------
EID:1087 04778843
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912cd
sq> He also seems to be ignoring my wife (which
sq> is a good thing in some aspects, I suppose. :).
I have not ignored your wife.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Evasions
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:02:04
--------
EID:1087 04778844
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912ce
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jesse C. Jones <=-
jcj> If so, who presides, and why?
FR> The works of the individual (both good and bad) may be covered, much
FR> wine and song may be consumed, and people have a good cry with others
FR> who loved the individual who has died. The person may be badly missed
FR> because their death closes a chapter in the survivors lives and opens
FR> up blannk pages which may frighten. The comfort of others who will
FR> also miss the individual is shared so that the experience evidenced
FR> that one is not alone in ones grief.
You didn't answer the question.
jcj> Why do you bother with weddings?
FR> You're an ass, Jesse. An ignorant superstitious ass who is incapable
FR> of asking an honest question without having to convince yourself that
FR> you're entirely curious and serious.
FR> Before you can ask honest questions, you have to be honest with
FR> yourself.
More evasions. No answers.
For all your claimed devotion to critical thinking, you don't seem to
apply it to the rituals and traditions which somehow even most atheists
seem t
o
have some need for. As you are attempting to destroy that which has bound
people together for all known time, you might give some thought about filling
the voids you are creating. Even Marilyn's American Humanist Association
is
training "humanist counselors," she said, to perform the clergy role.
Not even your stupid personal attacks can cover your evasions.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: More lies
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:08:05
--------
EID:1087 04778845
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912cf
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Steve Quarrella <=-
FR> it's no wonder that he must
FR> try to convince himself that you're "empty" and can't "really be in
FR> love."
The emptiness, as I have made clear, afflicts us all -- me as well as
Steve.
I have never said or implied that Steve "can't 'really be in love'".
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Lies
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:10:06
--------
EID:1087 04778846
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912d0
-=> Quoting Comrade Fredric to Jesse C. Jones <=-
CF> you equated the old Soviet Union with "evil," yet
CF> were incapable of saying why, exactly, it was,
As I said before, because it was a totalitarian regime which denied basic
human rights.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Tyler Wunder
Sub: Who gives what
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:18:07
--------
EID:1087 04778847
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4912d1
I had recently mentioned a study I had found before on giving patterns.
I
just located it in some archives:
Ä Area: Holy Smoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Date: 06-05-93 08:48
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: All
Subj: Read 'em & Weep
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
A few weeks ago I was challenged to support my statement that people of
faith
give more of their resources than do secularists.
Independent Sector, a coalition of 800 corporate, foundation, and voluntary
organizations, released a study on May 7, funded by the Lilly Endowment.
The
report concludes that "people who identify themselves as religious and who
attend religious services regularly are by far the most generous when it
comes
to giving time and money." 73% of contributions to _non-religious charities_
come from this group! Congregations contribute $6.6 billion (14% of their
total budgets) to service organizations or needy individuals -- compared
to
$7.7 billion given by foundations and $6.1 billion by corporations. 90%
of al
l
congregations have programs in human services and welfare, and 43% of all
volunteer hours go for such service (as opposed to religious education and
ministry).
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: Steve Cousley
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Causation and the Universe
Date: 27 Jan 94 19:31:00
--------
EID:8928 1c3b9be0
Had to write, it was desperation
Hector Plasmic gave me inspiration
RV>To ignore the problem, which is exactly what I have been contending
HP> Which is exactly what we atheists do, Rick, and which you do not, as
HP> evidenced by your last half dozen messages. Gods are nonexistent or
HP> irrelevant. We don't even care enough to try to figure out which.
HP> Some of us do get a kick out of disabusing god-worshippers (like
HP> yourself) of their silly notions.
Sorry about butting in here (not really :->), but are you trying
to say that if you can't see it, it isn't real?
I was just wondering if there was anything past the Horizon? I
can't see anything there without trying.
Gollum
... Athiesm is a non-prophet organisation.
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: Point Of No Return, Wagga Wagga +61-69-311-460 9pm-10am (93:9692/10
2.0)
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--------
From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 25 Jan 94 22:05:25
--------
EID:e9fd 1c39b0a0
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Johnny Mckinney <=-
SQ> 17 Jan 94, dixit Johnny Mckinney ad Fredric Rice:
JM> thing for sure is this..God lets the sunshine fall on
JM> believers and non-believers alike. He loves you and he
JM> loves me. Have a nice day Fred :)
SQ> Download GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system and then we'll talk.
SQ> ... Show some backbone: Become a vertebrate paleontologist.
SQ> -!- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
SQ> ! Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
Where is your system? I'm on a BBS in Houston. Give me your Number.
BTW, in a sandstorm, you see the sand, not the wind. In a tornado,
you see the debris, not the wind. God leaves evidence for all to
see. A flower, the stars, a newborn baby of any species. Even Mr.
Clinton who is talking on the TV as I type this message. (I think)
See ya later
Johnny
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
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--------
From: John Pierce
To: All
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 28 Jan 94 04:56:00
--------
EID:febd 1c3c2700
PID: RA 2.01 80182
MSGID: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7616
Beware! The Jew is the antichrist. (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
---
* Origin: Global Exchange - 5 Nodes - 6 Gigs - (901) 873-2837 - (1:123/2)
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--------
From: Daniel Doran
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Discussion
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:54:00
--------
EID:aa9a 1c3c9ec0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2db94098
LUKE ENRIQUEZ wrote something that might even have been about Discussion
LE> He said "The Father and I are one." He did not add, "The
LE> Father and you are not one." From this, it can only be derived that
LE> Jesus was an incarnation, not the incarnation.
"Thou art god", eh?
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message
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--------
From: Daniel Doran
To: George Wells
Sub: God Has Left
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:54:00
--------
EID:810a 1c3c9ec0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5f3f1354
GEORGE WELLS wrote something that might even have been about GOD HAS
LEFT
GW> ..., that he no longer watched over us, and does not to this day.
GW>
GW> It would appear to me that this world is some great experiment on
GW> this "God"'s part, which he grew tired of, and left us.
It makes somewhat more sense to me to assume that, rather than an
experiment, we are here for "God"'s entertainment, and "God" is watching.
The universe is art, the way we live is art. It gives reason to free
will, comedy, tragedy, good, evil, channel surfing, anything that isn't
dull and monotonous.
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Don't knock President Fillmore. He kept us out of Vietnam.
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--------
From: Daniel Doran
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Judas
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:54:00
--------
EID:cee2 1c3c9ec0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 65c17b87
MARILYN BURGE wrote something that might even have been about Judas
MB> Those two accounts are seriously contradictory, and cannot be
MB> reconciled with the kind of superficial patch-up job you've attempted.
MB> There are just too many contradictions for you to be able to give the
MB> kind of "explanation" you have while ignoring all the other mutually
MB> exclusive claims contained in the two accounts.
Perhaps Judas experience a mixed quantum state? :^)
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Microsoft has Windows - OS/2 has the whole house!
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--------
From: Daniel Doran
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Meaning Of The Cosmos
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:54:00
--------
EID:6262 1c3c9ec0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2baf387d
MARILYN BURGE wrote something that might even have been about Meaning of
the Cosmos
MB> Can you think of a fifth reason that still allows him the luxury of
MB> maintaining all the claims that are made about him?
Heck, I can't think of a reason that allows maintaining all the claims
about ANYTHING. BTW, you can still almost rationalize omniscience,
omnipotence and love if you consider the garden of eden to be a load of
BS, and the bible as a collection of less than perfectly transmitted
words about God, rather than words OF God.
If god is omnipotent, why can't he create something that he can't
predict?
* KWQ/2 1.2d * When inlaws are outlawed, only outlaws will have inlaws.
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From: Daniel Doran
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Monkey Wrenching
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:54:00
--------
EID:5ca6 1c3c9ec0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 453c2ecc
MARILYN BURGE wrote something that might even have been about Monkey
wrenching
MB> While I think we are using our timberland badly,
MB> as I said in an earlier post, I think it is extremely naive to think
MB> that we can just quit cutting timber altogether.
On the other hand, it seems rather stupid to turn over the entirety of
the old-growth timber to the industry that has managed to manage
timberland so badly. Also, due to rising lumber prices, the housing
industry is beginning to turn to steel, so maybe we don't need to trash
the old growth quite as fast as the timber industry claims.
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Intel DX99 - Do you smell something burning ???
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From: Daniel Doran
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Playing By The Rules.
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:55:00
--------
EID:0838 1c3c9ee0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 07c9c572
RICHARD THORNEYCROFT wrote something that might even have been about
Playing by the rules.
RT> When the personal testimony is corroborated and is similar to
RT> millions of other testimonies and takes place over 1900 years that
RT> constitutes legitimate evidence. You lose, gotta do better than that.
RT> (how about cheat, change the definition?)
What about the even larger volume of personal testimony and
corroboration from a larger number of individuals than all of the
Christians who have ever lived, over a period of time longer than 1900
years that are in opposition or contradiction to Christianity. Surely
you must believe them. That fewer people believe in Christ than do not
must certainly prove that Christianity is a either not the true religeon
or not the one true religeon. The "evidence" is overwhelming. Unless of
course you disregard their evidence solely because it doesn't support what
you believe.
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Save the whales. Collect the whole set.
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From: Daniel Doran
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: The Evidence Is In. Y
Date: 28 Jan 94 19:55:00
--------
EID:804d 1c3c9ee0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 48a7f90d
RICHARD THORNEYCROFT wrote something that might even have been about The
evidence is in. Y
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience, over a time period of 1900+ years. By
RT> definition this IS evidence. You may not like it, too bad pal, its
RT> still _evidence_.
Ah, but what is it evidence of? An evolved biological mechanism of
neurological connections and chemical messengers that allow human beings
to continue coping with situations that support no rational reason for
hope? (thus giving them a better chance of keeping their children alive
long enough to pass a gene for spiritual experiences than similar
individuals who, without the gene, give up in despair) God is not a
necessary explanation for spiritual experiences.
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Wasting time is an important part of living.
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Fleas: Adam...had'em.
Date: 25 Jan 94 22:16:00
--------
EID:4381 1c39b200
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d45e0be
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 41c47900
Saturday January 22 1994, Hector Plasmic writes to jonny vee:
HP> + Origin: "This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!" (1:380/16
)
"This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!" "Is not!"
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Luke Zollner
Sub: It's quiz time
Date: 25 Jan 94 23:14:01
--------
EID:f413 1c39b9c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d45ee48
1. Who do you love more?
a. Jesus
b. Your family
2. If Jesus and your wife were hanging off a bridge, who would
you save if you only had time to save one?
a. Jesus
b. Your wife
3. How old is the Earth?
a. 4.5 billion years old
b. 6000 years old
4. Where do you get the energy to run your solar powered
calculator?
a. Sun
b. Satan
c. God
d. Little elves that live in your claculator
5. If you had a 12 year old daughter and she was assaulted and
raped by an escaped convict and became pregnant, would you
make her...
a. Give birth to the child
b. Have an abortion
6. If there were possible complications and even possible death
for your daughter, would you make her...
a. Give birth to the child
b. Have an abortion
7a. Is creationism scietific?
a. Yes
b. No
7b. Should Creationism be taught in science class?
a. Yes
b. No
8a. Is evolution a fact or a theory?
a. Fact
b. Theory
c. Both
8b. Should Evolution be taught in science class?
a. Yes
b. No
9. Should New Age (occult) be taught in science class?
a. Yes
b. No
10. Where did the dinosaurs go?
a. Died in the flood
b. Climatic changes
c. They never existed
11. What do you think of bones found of primitive man?
a. A hoax
b. Satan put the bones there to stop us from believing
c. They are the ancestors from which we evolved from
12. If your son was a homosexual, where is he going?
a. Heaven
b. Hell
c. A gay bar
13. If a book goes against the teachings of the Bible (ex.
evolution, new age, ect.) should the book be...
a. Ban from public/school libraries & book stores
b. Allowed in public/school libraries & book stores
14. Do you believe in Benny Hinn (faith healing)
a. Yes
b. No
15. Are you proud of your Fundy forefathers when they killed the
witches during the Salem Witch Trials?
a. Yes
b. No
16. If God asked you to take the life of your family to show
your love for him, would you?
a. Yes
b. No
17. If God asked you to have sex with your daughter or go to
hell, would you?
a. Yes
b. No
18. What is a theory?
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Possibility & probability
Date: 26 Jan 94 21:06:04
--------
EID:1a69 1c3aa8c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d46e387
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to Hector Plasmic:
MS> be lunacy. What we are left with is the concept of possibility and
MS> probability. That God is possible is something even you ought to be
able
to
MS> admit.
...as are unicorns, smurfs, dragons, leprechauns, Zeus, etc.
MS> It is the question of probability that discussion ought be centered
MS> upon.
Then show us how the existence of the christian god is highly probable.
MS> I do not have an "addiction" in any sense of the word. I am no one's
or
MS> anythings slave. I do scrupulously adhere to truth wherever I may find
it
.
MS> I find a universe in which order is observed even down to the most minute
MS> particle and event improbale to attribute to chance or mindless
MS> happenstance. I find that the idea that intelligence rising from any
MS> evolutionary theory is improbable. I see evidence that order and laws
can
't
MS> be derived from chaos. I see evidence that life is far from problematic,
MS> that the complexity of living organisms defies chance. I am aware of
many
MS> evolutionary and cosmological theorems, and none of them are adaquete.
I
MS> see that only creation by an intelligent God could produce what we see
MS> around us.
In summation : you see such order and complexity in the universe that the
univ
erse must have been intelligently designed. Correct? (if not then correct
me)
Then surely the creator of the universe, a complex entity, would have to
be at
least as complex. Hence, if the universe demands an intelligent creator
then
so does your god....etc etc to infinity.
Re: the complexity of living organisms defies chance
Who implied that organisms are complex by "chance"? Who implied that anything
about the universe is a result of "chance".
Re: evolution and inadequacy
What about the theory of evolution do you find to be inadequate?
And if you don't buy the theory of evolution...so what? This does not make
yo
ur god any more probable. In short, ignorance does not point to a god...it
po
ints to ignorance. The complexity of the universe is astounding but this
does
not necessitate a god. Man is discovering the secrets of biological life,
an
d the workings of the universe. Your god is running out of places to hide.
MS> Man is a creature that has the unique capacity for reason and conceptual
MS> thought. Your simplistic statement of evidence being an "either/or"
MS> proposition concerning God shows that you've not considered this concept
in
MS> any appreciable depth. Now, should you desire, ask me specific questions,
MS> and I'll answer them. This question is too complex to start at random
MS> tangents.
Well, EITHER you have evidence to support your assertion that god exists
OR yo
u don't.
You seem to derive some of the support for your belief in god from the design
and cosmological arguments which we have shown to be inadequate (although
you
may try to qualify any problems out of them by defining your god as a being
th
at doesn't follow the rules...but then it only becomes meaningless noise).
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit or Plain Old Nonexistent
Date: 27 Jan 94 01:18:44
--------
EID:722d 1c3b0a40
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d471b6c
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d46d4b7
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to
Mike S
taab:
RT> those you disagree with. Anyway MS I certainly agree there is _evidence
RT> for the IDEA_, most open minds would agree methinks.
RT> They used this _no evidence_ crap on me, I think you will find HP has
RT> changed the meaning of the word so it no longer agrees with the dictionar
y
RT> definition or judicial definition. The sworn testimony of millions of
RT> people over 1900 years, concerning a life changing experience, supported
by
RT> independant witnesses is not evidence! Astounding eh what?
Testimony of personal revelation is evidence...but for what? Social programmi
ng? Self-delusion? Elation at the thought of avoiding death? Your god?
If you believe it is evidence for your god then you'd better show that this
pe
rsonal testimony is accurate despite other "mass revelations" and "testimony"
experienced by believers in spirits, ghosts, Zeus, Odin, wicca etc.
And the "experience" of christianity does not appear to be independent.
North
American indians were not aware of christianity and until it landed on them
(
like a rock) in the form of european settlers. It appears as if religion
is l
earned. Children born to jewish parents in a jewish country are likley
to bec
ome jewish themselves. Similar for islam, christianity, native spirits,
etc.
And they're all probably just as adamant in their belief that they're right
an
d the others are wrong because they've felt the power of god, jesus, the
gods,
whoever.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:56:38
--------
EID:31f0 1c3c5f00
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d48ff8e
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d43f87f
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Bamford writes to Quentin Fai:
RB> that if it ever became a DEMOCRACY that it would fall. Look at what's
RB> happening! "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of
RB> America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD,
RB> indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all." -- This is something
to
RB> fight for!!! Rob
I don't know what's more scary. Fanaticism inspired by a flag, or fanaticism
inspired by a nonexistent being.
"ya bowin' down to the flag...ya gotta bullet in your head"
-Rage Against The Machine
Derek W. Clayton
---
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:06:24
--------
EID:5bce 1c3c60c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d49012b
REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d44d924
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Bamford writes to Derek Clayton:
RB> Well, it is OBVIOUS and beyond question that the manufacturer is at
fault
,
RB> the difference is that YOU see CHOICE as a defect, I see it as the ONLY
W
AY
RB> a Loving God could create a Free Willed Creature! Choice CAN work
I would call the inability to make good choices a defect.
DC>> Regardless, why didn't god just create beings with free will who just
DC>> never choose to do "evil"?
RB> stupid and harmful to themselves or others! And besides, taking away
one
RB> half of the coin and not allowing the ability to choose evil, is taking
RB> away free choice or free will.
I didn't say they couldn't choose evil. God would just make them with suffici
ent moral strength that they never would choose evil.
For example, does anybody in heaven ever do evil? If no, then do they also
ha
ve complete free will? If yes, then what happens when someone in heaven
does
evil?
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:18:50
--------
EID:9519 1c3c6240
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4903b1
REPLY: 1:2370/14 1008f89a
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Charlie:
In a msg of , Charlie J. Ray writes to DEREK
CLAYTO
N:
CJR> Show me the bones of Jesus in the grave and I will be satisfied that
He
CJR> did not rise from the dead. Show me credible historical accounts by
CJR> Greek, Roman, or Jewish historians that describe how the resurrection
wa
s
CJR> faked. That should be easy for you.
(sigh)
You make the claim you get to provide the evidence. You may feel rational
in
believing a claim because it hasn't been disproved, however, the burden
of pro
of requires that I have evidence. Else,...
...I have evidence that Jesus never even existed. Prove I don't.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: All
Sub: Echos
Date: 23 Jan 94 14:41:00
--------
EID:1d69 1c377520
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8b6c8c
What other religon based echos are out there and which ones are run by
Steve Winter?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Antisemitism
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:39:00
--------
EID:5bfb 1c3c5ce0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a2
JL>I'd like to add that not only was the one born Jew in Lenin's circle
JL>exiled
JL>and murdered by Stalin, but Jews were harshly persecuted by the
JL>Soviets.
JL>That's why so many Jews left for Israel.
There was more than one Jew involved in the revolution since at its
height, 57% of the Politburo was Jewish as well as 40% of the Military
Revolutionary Committee.
JL>Incidentally, several million of the above figure were Jewish, though
JL>they
JL>were singled out because they were religious or were purged. Those
JL>Jews who
JL>remained were not allowed to learn Hebrew or Yiddish, and forbidden
JL>to study
JL>their religion. All of the Jewish immigrants I've met were subjected
JL>to an
JL>attept to strip them of their religious heriatage to an extent
JL>unimaginable
JL>to people living in a free society.
I don't deny that many Jews were persecuted in Russia. However, we must
not forget that Jews were allowed a luxury that many Gentiles would have
loved...emigration. In the period of 1970-1980, 246,000 Jews were allowed
to leave whereas only 2,000 Gentiles were allowed to leave.
JL> SB> Antisemitism is just as evil as the racism held
JL> SB> by some Jews.
JL>Interesting phrase you use there. I once heard the same thing said by
JL>a KKK
JL>member about blacks.
Prejudice is bad, no matter who has it.
JL>If you're willing to share our religions on their own terms, be my
JL>guest, but
JL>if you're going to reply with prejudices and out of context quotes
JL>which have
JL>nothing to do with real Jewish people and real Judaism, then we have
JL>nothing
JL>to discuss.
Joshua, don't get the idea that I am anti-Semitic. I have nothing against
Jews. However, I am willing to point out the faults in some Jews just
as you are willing to point out the faults of some Christians. What I am
looking for is the truth. In your original post on antisemitism you had
no problem criticizing the Christian church. Why can't the same be done
for Jews? Lets treat Christianity and Judaism in the same way. If my
comments are inaccurate, please inform me and point me in the right
direction. I have already admitted that you were right in the reference
to the Talmud that I made. I am here to learn. I hope we can continue
in
our conversation.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Re: Messiah
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:42:01
--------
EID:85d0 1c3c5d40
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a3
JL>BTW, have you studied Talmud? There's this fellow Steve Bedard
JL>quoting stuff
JL>from our sage's sometimes wide-ranging debates out of context. Now
JL>that I go
JL>to the library to study and debunk some, he comes back with three or
JL>four
JL>more new ones that I have to drive out there to read in context. I
JL>think he's
JL>getting them from an Antisemetic tract. Do you think I should ignore
JL>him? :-)
Sorry to butt in, but no you should not ignore me. If you can show me
that what you say is the truth, I am willing to admit my mistake. I
really do want to learn the truth.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Praise ye the LORD.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Assurance
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:47:02
--------
EID:e33c 1c3c5de0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a4
JL> SB> If you believe that modern Judaism is the
JL> SB> original faith you are very much mistaken.
JL> SB> Rabbinical Judaism is quite a bit different from the faith
JL> SB> of Moses and the prophets.
JL>It is not any more different than Christianity is.
I agree that both Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism are somewhat
different from pre-Rabbinical Judaism.
JL>I suspect you have very little knowledge about it outside of what's
JL>quoted in
JL>the openly antisemetic propoganda you're pursuing. It's a shame that
JL>others
JL>are still apparantly being taught to hate Jews from it.
No one is teaching me to hate Jews. The book I read specifically speaks
out against anti-Semitism. No where in the books does he advocate hatred
or persecution of Jews.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Rob Vanderkam
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:57:03
--------
EID:96a4 1c3c5f20
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a5
RV> > Sin is anything that separates from God. It is
RV> > anything that is contrary to the wishes of God.
RV> In my opinion, there is no such thing as sin, except whatever
RV> keeps us from knowing the truth about our lives. By truth I
RV> mean a KNOWABLE truth, not a believe-in-because-someone-says-so
RV> truth. The former is simple, like knowing you are alive. The latter
RV> is complex and requires legal counsel to interpret.
You are free to have your opinion but I stick with my original definition.
RV> My experience is that quality is added to life when worrying about
RV> right and wrong (aka sin or guilt and fear) are left behind and
RV> love can flow. I get the distinct feeling that many Christians
RV> only have ideas of love in their minds, and rarely enjoy the real
RV> thing.
Actually this is what Christianity is supposed to be about. When one is
born again, they are supposed to live a life of love and to do what is
right not because they are following some set of rules but because it is
a
natural expression of their love. What is your definition of the "real
thing"?
RV> Please feel free to explain to me, either with evidence or
RV> as opinion, what a man dying on a cross 2000 years ago has to do
RV> with the life I am gifted with at this time. I understand he
RV> did show people the truth about life, but that was then.
He was a teacher of moral truths but He was also much more. What He did
was give us the opportunity to reconcile ourselves with God.
RV> > I understand your desire to enjoy life now and not worry
RV> > about being dead but face it, you are going to be dead a
RV> > lot longer than you are going to be alive.
RV> Even if you are right, it's irrelevant. The universe works!
RV> and I have no responsibility but to be aware of what I am now.
RV> I did not put myself here, will not take myself away, did not
RV> make this place (although I do limit it with my narrow
RV> perceptions), nor did I make the next place. ALL I AM CAPABLE
RV> OF IS APPRECIATING THAT I AM A SPARK OF THE FIRE, NOW AND AS
RV> LONG AS I EXIST, no matter where that may be and in whatever
RV> form. Do not confuse this with wanting to 'enjoy' life, as in
RV> self indulgence or serving the ego. My enjoyment of life comes
RV> from breathing, and being aware of being here.
I too, like to appreciate what I have now. However, there is wisdom in
being concerned about the future and preparing yourself for it, whether
the future is before or after you die.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:03:04
--------
EID:2879 1c3c6060
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a6
PH> PH>In other words, you and Rob seem to share the belief that only
PH> PH>members of
PH> PH>your cult can be called "Christian".
PH> SB> That depends on what you consider my "cult". If you mean
PH> SB> Christianity, yes you must belong to Christianity to be a
PH>Christian.
PH> SB> Thats not to hard to figure out. If you mean the denomination
PH>of the
PH> SB> church I worship at, that is not what I am saying at all. I
PH>believe
PH> SB> that there are born again Christians in just about every
PH>denomination
PH> SB> (including Anglicans).
PH>And people wonder why so-called mainstream religion is losing its
PH>grip, too...
PH>Take your stinking theocracy and shove it. I ain't worshipping here
PH>no more.
What exactly is there about my message which offended you so much?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Christ is risen. The Lord has risen indeed.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:05:05
--------
EID:9698 1c3c60a0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a7
PH> SB> Why do so many people in the world feel the need to try and
PH>"debunk"
PH> SB> and insult someones beliefs? Why do they care if someone does
PH>believe
PH> SB> in something supernatural?
PH>I couldn't care less *what* you want to believe in -- it's when you
PH>start
PH>thinking your myth gives you the right to force *me* to act like you
PH>think
PH>I should that causes me to get the howitzers out and start loading...
I do not advocate forcing someone to live like a Christian.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Christ is risen. The Lord has risen indeed.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Mythology
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:13:06
--------
EID:32ee 1c3c61a0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a8
KB>SB>Why do so many people in the world feel the need to try and
KB>"debunk" and
KB>SB>insult someones beliefs? Why do they care if someone does believe
KB>in
KB>SB>something supernatural?
KB> What you believe, Steve, is your business. As soon as you take it
KB> public, start proclaiming it publicly as truth, or start using it as
KB>a
KB> basis for tampering with the rights of the rest of us, it becomes
KB>our
KB> business as well - and we will hound you mercilessly for the "facts"
KB> which support your belief. Without evidence to support your thesis,
KB>you
KB> are no more to be regarded "sane" than someone who believes he is
KB> Napoleon, or thinks aliens have taken over the government.
If this echo primarily criticized Christian political efforts, I could
understand why you would want to do this. However, this is only a small
percentage of the messages here. If I am not mistake, the purpose of this
echo was to debunk religon (especially Christianity) and this echo seems
to continue in this purpose. What is the reason for insulting others
beliefs or trying to prove them wrong? What good does it do?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Tony Nasrallah
Sub: Qur'an
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:21:07
--------
EID:34ec 1c3c62a0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8cf6a9
TN>As far as I can tell from Mr. Mohammed's remarks, he is about as
TN>Muslim as
TN>Yitzak Shamir.
I saw a documentry on Malcolm X a couple of days ago and I noticed that
the Nation of Islam is quite a bit different than the Islam I know of.
Do
you know anything about the origins of the Nation of Islam and how exactly
it differs in doctrine?
TN>The Qur'an tells us that God made us into different nations and
TN>tribes so
TN>that we might know each other, not hate each other.
You have to admit that the Qur'an is pretty critical of the Jews.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Justification By Faith
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:49:00
--------
EID:f56e 1c3c6620
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8db191
LS>JC>Rom 3:10 "as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous,
LS>not ev
LS>JC>one;"
LS>JC>Rom 3:23 "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of
LS>God;"
LS>BUNK! Paul is ADDING his personal interpertation and in so doing is
LS>contridicting the clear message of the bible. Not only is Noah noted
LS>as
LS>being rightious:
LS>Gen 7:1 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy
LS>house into
LS>the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
What Paul is talking about is that our entire lives can not be righteous.
Even Noah sinned when he got drunk and passed out naked in his tent.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Life's Meaning
Date: 28 Jan 94 12:57:01
--------
EID:37d6 1c3c6720
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8db192
ML> SB> You convince me of nothing.
ML> Well, if you can't be swayed by the facts; there is nothing
ML> that will penetrate that shield of dogma induced ignorance.
You have shown me no facts.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ In Jesus' name we shall be strong
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: George Wells
Sub: God Has Not Left
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:03:02
--------
EID:cabc 1c3c6860
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8db193
GW>I am an Anglican, and do have a beleif that at one time, yes, there
GW>was a "God" that watched over, and guided people in the very early
GW>years
GW>of mankind. However, I also beleive that soon after his son departed
GW>from
GW>this world, that he no longer watched over us, and does not to this
GW>day.
How do you reconcile this with the Bible which seems to indicate
differently? What do you think happens after you die? Also, are there
many people at your church that have similar views?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:09:03
--------
EID:65df 1c3c6920
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8db194
JV> > JV>inerrancy, the flood myth, creation in six days, etc.?
JV> > SB> No I won't make claims about these things but that does not
JV>mean that
JV> > SB> I don't believe them.
JV> > JV>your god have a penis? I realize this probably
JV> > JV> irritates most of your coreligionists,
JV> > SB> God is refered to as a "Him" because that is thetype of
JV>personality He
JV> > SB> has revealed most often.
That is basically all that I wrote. If there was more I do not remember.
You seemed to have thought that since my faith does not rely on a literal
view of the 6 day creation and global flood that I don't believe them.
I
just wanted to correct you by saying that I do believe that they occurred
but if they were proven to not have happened, there is still value in them
as moral stories and my faith would not be affected.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Christ is risen. The Lord has risen indeed.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Fear And Loathing...not!
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:12:04
--------
EID:7129 1c3c6980
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e8db195
MG>MG>>to an eternity of hell for 70 odd years of "sin"? It jsut
MG>MG>>doesn't
MG> SB> I think of it as Him saving those that believe in Him. He does
MG> SB> not force anyone to spend eternity with Him.
MG>So, badd things do not happen to those that believe?
On earth? Of course bad things happen to those who believe. Eleven of
the twelve apostles were martyred.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ In the beginning was the Word...
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Khonsu
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Monkey Wrenching #1
Date: 26 Jan 94 20:07:01
--------
EID:613a 1c3aa0e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0e93955f
Gosh, I am gonna ask another stupid question and everybody is gonna
know I don't understand and then they will leave me in the dark again,
and I still won't know the answer. But, The forestry industry has been
telling me all my life, that the forest is a RENEWABLE resource. That
nice Mr Rice said that some things need a really old forest to grow, I
think he said 2000 years. Well they have been cutting timber in North
America for 400 years or so. Why don't they cut down some of the trees
they have been planting in the last 400 years. In reality they have been
reforesting for maybe 50 years, but they still don't have any trees to
cut. Probably cause they only planted the cheapest ones possible. If
they have not yet started to renew the resource, and still haven't
planted enough trees, what will they cut when the last ones, like the
ones in British Columbia are gone? They will be unemployed within a few
years anyway, why not now and save the trees so that others will know
what they look like? Better yet make them go back to axes and horses,
then let them cut what they want....See I knew I was gonna sound stupid?
* SLMR 2.1a * If time and space are curved,how come people are straight
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Floyd Landrath
To: All
Sub: MANDATORY MINIMUMS/PRISONER LETTER
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:52:17
--------
EID:28bb 1c3c1e80
MSGID: 1:105/69.0 2d484985
MM093.txt
AMERICAN ANTI-PROHIBITION LEAGUE
4017 SE BELMONT STREET, BOX 103
PORTLAND OREGON U.S.A. 97214
(503) 235-4524
Floyd Ferris Landrath -- Director
REFORM MARIJUANA SENTENCING LAWS
CALL FOR PUBLIC COMMENT
The U.S. Sentencing Commission is NOW accepting Public Comment until
March 18, 1994. Please WRITE/CALL/FAX/E-Mail the Commission and your
federal representatives and the media.
The current sentencing guidelines are arbitrary and irrational.
Request that the guidelines be changed to 100 grams per plant rather
than 1000 grams per plant. Ask that this change be made RETROACTIVE!
SENTENCING COMMISSION SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
One Columbus Circle, NE ATTN: Sen. Joseph Biden, Jr.
Suite 2-500 224 Dirksen Building
Washington, DC 20002-8002 Washington, DC 20510
ATTN: Public Information
President Clinton
Fax 202-456-2461
E-Mail President@Whitehouse.Gov
Number PROPOSED CURRENT
of Sentence Sentence
Plants with 100 g with 1000 g
-------------------------------------------
|----------|--------------|---------------|
| 0 - 9 | 0 - 6 mos| 0 - 6 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
| 10 - 24 | 6 - 12 mos| 6 - 12 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
| 25 - 49 | 10 - 16 mos| 10 - 16 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
| 50 - 99 | 15 - 21 mos| 33 - 63 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
|100 - 199 | 21 - 27 mos| 63 - 78 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
|200 - 399 | 27 - 33 mos| 63 - 78 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
|200 - 599 | 33 - 41 mos| 78 - 97 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
|600 - 799 | 41 - 51 mos| 78 - 121 mos |
|----------|--------------|---------------|
|800 - 999 | 51 - 63 mos| 97 - 121 mos |
-------------------------------------------
AMERICAN ANTI-PROHIBITION LEAGUE
4017 SE BELMONT STREET, BOX 103
PORTLAND OREGON U.S.A. 97214
(503) 235-4524
Floyd Ferris Landrath -- Director
Note: The following letter was recently received by the American Anti-
Prohibition League.
Hi Floyd,
My name is Art Mack and I'm an inmate at the federal prison camp
in Sheridan. I'm here for growing 140 marijuana plants outdoors. I
want to thank you for writing the article on medical marijuana. I
really get sick reading the paper and seeing all the negative bullshit
that they print as facts about marijuana. It's nice to see the
occasional truthful article on the subject. It would seem that the
public would wise up one of these days. I worked with the Oregon
Marijuana Initiative for years trying to get things changed. It's a
frustrating job trying to get things changed, but I hope people keep
trying. The way things are now the laws are way more harmful than
marijuana could ever be, even if everyone who smokes tied to abuse it.
There is a chance for a little relief for us federal inmates.
The US sentencing commission is considering a sentencing guideline
amendment that would change the plant weight of marijuana from 1000
grams per plant to 100 grams. 100 grams is the weight that the
commission came up with in the late 80's as a good fair average fro
plants. In 1988 or so congress changed the weight to 1000 grams.
Therefor, I was charged with over 300 pounds, when in reality I'd of
been lucky to get 10 pounds.
We are trying to get people to write the commission in support of
the change. We are hoping it will be changed and be retroactive. In
my case it would reduce my sentence to between 21-27 months and I would
be able to get out this November. If not I'm stuck here until April of
1997. We need to let the commission now there is support for a change
and that the issue isn't one of being hard or soft on drugs, but being
fair in sentencing. We are the only people being charged for weight
that we didn't even produce and couldn't produce per plant.
I am asking for your support and your groups support. There are
thousands of growers doing more time than most violent criminals. We
have a chance to change this injustice this year. Please do what you
can to help. I'm sending you a flyer with the address of the
commission and a few other facts. Let me know if you have any
questions or need more information.
Sincerely,
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.10 [NR]
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Rob Vanderkam
Sub: Monkey wrenching #1
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:09:10
--------
EID:bf0b 1c3d5920
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 4355d430
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 2d467d7c
On (26 Jan 94) Rob Vanderkam wrote to Marilyn Burge...
RV> On 01-23-94 Marilyn Burge wrote to David Rice...
RV>
RV> > > would have us believe that their concern over tree spiking is
RV> > > injury to their workers! Bull-f-shit! It is MONEY they care
RV> about.
RV> >
RV> > And you are destroying property that doesn't belong to you in order
RV>
RV> > to make a political point. That is immoral.
RV>
RV> So what gives the gov't the right to destroy the forests today?
RV> Could it not be said that these forests belong to the future and
RV> not to us? How long can we continue to harvest as we ahve done
RV> in the past?
I was brought to task by David for calling them "our" forests. But, if
one thinks about the legal ramifications, it is the fact that they
belong to ALL OF US that gives a ray of hope that we can save them. If
they were in private ownership, there would be nothing anybody could do
to prevent them from being clearcut by their owners. If they belonged
to no one, anybody could come along and homestead the land that they
are on then log them once ownership was established. The fact that
they belong to everybody gives no one person or coroporation the right
to cut them down.
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Monkey business -- my aunt is NOT a monkey!
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:12:55
--------
EID:b944 1c3d5980
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 99b052e0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d09200d
On (26 Jan 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Marilyn Burge...
FR> From elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU!LIPPARD
FR> From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
FR> To: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org
FR> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:15:01 -0700 (MST)
FR>
FR> Meyer is definitely at Whitworth College, in Spokane.
FR> It is a Christian college, but not SDA.
FR>
I checked with my SDA friend, and you're right; I was wrong. Sorry.
--- PPoint 1.78
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Passages
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:28:38
--------
EID:521c 1c3d5b80
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 34570038
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d45eb46
On (25 Jan 94) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Marilyn Burge...
JC> -=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JC>
JC> MB> I have never attended a Humanist marriage ceremony, but do know
JC> MB> something of what takes place there. We pledge our lives and
JC> love to
JC> MB> each other, just like believers do. We celebrate the same rites
JC> of
JC> MB> passage as believers, for the most part, and celebrate them in
JC> much
JC> MB> the same way. . . .
JC>
JC> MB> The American Humanist Association trains Humanist Counselors who
JC> are
JC> MB> fully qualified and accredited in all states to perform all the
JC> MB> functions that are performed by clergy in the same states.
JC>
JC> Including declaring absolution?
I would guess that if a Humanist felt in need of absolution, an AHA
counselor could provide it, but I have a hard time imagining a Humanist
in need of it.
JC> MB> Ritual exists in every life, whether they
JC> MB> are believers or nonbelievers. There is something about ritual
JC> that
JC> MB> helps us mentally mark time in terms of openings and closures.
JC>
JC> MB> Since our culture doesn't waste a whole lot of time teaching
JC> MB> people that there ARE alternatives to religion that can fill much
JC> the
JC> MB> same emotional aspects as are filled by religion, it does not
JC> surprise
JC> MB> me when people are rudderless after giving up religion.
JC>
JC> MB> The American Humanist Association has several books with titles
JC> like
JC> MB> "Funerals Without God" and the like that outline ceremonies to
JC> MB> celebrate and commemorate the various milestones in our lives.
JC>
JC> It seems to me the AHA is trying to recreate the Church without
JC> God. (And I thought the Unitarians had already taken care of that!
)
.
JC>
JC> On one level, I think this is commendable. Unlike many of the
JC> other participants in this conference, you recognize the needs to which
JC> religious faith responds.
No, Jesse. We recognize that we are acculturated to expect certain
ceremonies at certain milestones in our lives. Some of us feel like
we've left the table without having eaten any casserole if we don't
have these rituals in our lives. We recognize that the rituals are
just that -- rituals -- and nothing more. But they serve the purpose
of allowing us to gather our friends and families around us to help us
celebrate these significant events in our lives, and we enjoy the love
and company of our friends and families, so we go for the ritual as a
means of satisfying what our culture has conditioned us to expect.
JC> But to me, your recitation shows an obsessive exclusion of God
in
JC> the face of everything that points both to the need for and presence
JC> of God. You express what to me is a faith in the primacy of human
JC> reason, and the ability of human reasoning to lead people to act
JC> for the common weal. I don't see that reflected in history, and I
JC> don't see it proven empirically or logically.
You're right. Because it has never been tried. What has been tried
and has failed miserably is a church-led government that has botched
things up beyond my wildest nightmares. What we have seen is a
populace that has been conditioned to think that they can't think for
themselves but must have something outside of themselves do their
thinking for them. And look where this conditioning has gotten us! It
is high time we DID try thinking for ourselves and using the brains we
were given to their fullest extent.
I have no obsession to exclude god. I simply don't think that the god
of the bible exists. It is so contrary to common sense and ordinary
decency, that it behooves me to come to the conclusion that it does not
exist, rather than come to the conclusion that it does exist and must
be given some kind of honor when, in fact, the record speaks for
itself: it deserves just the opposite of honor; it deserves all my
scorn and censure.
JC> I say this as constructively as I can. I respect that humanists
JC> at least have thought about some of these ultimate questions.
You keep using the word "ultimte" as though it has some meaning in this
context. I can't say that it does, in my opinion.
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: John Windsor
To: Drew Webber
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:16:00
--------
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PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
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Drew Webber, Johnny Mckinney, and ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?...Need I say more?
JM> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
JM> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
JM> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really exists.
DW> Oh, there are several reasons for non-believers to post here..
DW>
DW> 1). To show people like you how arrogant your ways are.
You are correct, from a certain viewpoint. Part of the Christian faith
is
the belief that our faith is the only one that's right. That in itself
appears arrogant to an outside observer, but is integral to our faith.
If we
concede that there may be other correct beliefs than salvation by grace
through faith in Christ, then we would be in opposition to Christ himself
who said "...no one can come to the Father but through Me."
DW> 2). It's fun to shake peoples faith in things they blindly follow.
Always good to have my faith challenged. Otherwise it becomes pretty
stale and boring.
DW> 3). I assume this is why this echo exists.. to argue over religion.
That was also my assumption. I'm a Christian who asked the sysop to pick
up
this echo so I could converse with non-believers and learn about their
beliefs, partly because of my desire to learn about people, partly so I
can
learn more about my own beliefs by defending them, and partly so I can learn
about the weaknesses in the opposing side's arguments.
Later.
John
--- xMail 1.00
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From: John Windsor
To: Styx Allum
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:16:00
--------
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PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
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Styx Allum, Johnny Mckinney, and ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?...Need I say more?
SA> Food for thought: Do you pray to your god?
Yup.
SA> If he is omniscient, would he not already know your thoughts before
SA> any need to express them via prayer?
Yup.
SA> Non-theists have many such questions for theists to attempt to answer.
OK. If you don't mind me asking a few too.
SA> -Styx Allum, Moderator
I'm new on this echo, but a beaten, grizzled veteran of Net356 LOCAL_BOYS
(which, with all due respect, makes some of these posts look like
shower fights in an all-girl's school). Looking forward to future
discussions with y'all, hopefully on a more cerebral level than the above.
:)
BTW, noticed you're in Eugene, Or. Do you know Les Lemke?
Later.
John
... Free speech means letting those who are wrong speak also.
--- xMail 1.00
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From: John Windsor
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:16:02
--------
EID:5d99 1c3c5a00
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PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
EID: 0ba5 c3c76455
TID: xMail 1.00 noreg
Jason Rosendale, Johnny Mckinney, and ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?...Need I say
more
?
JR> atheism is one of the few things that will start a
JR> violent debate wherever and whenever it comes up.
I never have understood why people get so fired up. We Christians aren't
supposed to get angry...we're just instructed to share our beliefs and let
our God do the rest. I've never known a person who came to Christ because
of an argument with a Christian.
JR> If you asked me, I'd tell you that this is a
JR> forum to talk through fundamentalists to other non-Christians. It's
JR> like the A_theist, Science, Evolution, and Chit-Chat echos all rolled
JR> into one.
Does this mean that Christians are not welcome here? Just wondering.
JM> We are instructed to pass on and spread "THE Good News." We often are
JM> criticized for this but we are use to it. Christians have been
JM> criticized for about 2000 years now.
JR> Oh my GOD! You mean someone has DARED to say that Christianity
JR> isn't perfect? The nerve of those bastards, criticizing inquisitions,
JR> crusades, etc..
Perhaps you are confusing Christianity with the catholic church? I have
my doubts (though not proven in fact) that Christ wanted the above-mentioned
historical events to have occurred in the name of Christ. These events
were
carried out by men, using their free wills, not God IMHO.
Later.
John
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From: John Windsor
To: All
Sub: Debate
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:16:02
--------
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MSGID: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
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Ok all you happy athiests out there...this here Bible-beater's got a
question:
Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
us Christians rather than some other religious group?
Here are some possibilities:
a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than intellect and this
hacks you off.
b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a possibility)
c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
e. None of the above.
Later.
John
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
--- xMail 1.00
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Wiretap
Date: 27 Jan 94 19:43:37
--------
EID:0df6 1c3b9d60
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc17
Hi Fredric...
On 25 Jan 94 16:06:51, Fredric Rice penned the following to John Musselwhite
In reference to Discovery of the divine
jm> InterNet there is a copy you can get via anonymous ftp
jm> from wiretap.spies.com, the CIA's internet machine.
FR> I thought that was a .gov domain.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Somehow it seems appropriate they
would have a "company" domain... B-})
Here's a sample... This was in 'Library/Religion' on wiretap.spies.com
i.e. the CIA facility in Langley, VA last time I checked:
drwxr-xr-x 2 dell spies 512 Jul 14 19:03 Anglican
drwxr-xr-x 7 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:59 Bible
(contains Bible/English: Bible/German: Bible/Swahili: Bible/Swedish:)
drwxr-xr-x 2 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:59 Coptic
drwxr-xr-x 3 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:59 Fringe
drwxr-xr-x 7 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:57 Jainism
drwxr-xr-x 5 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:58 Mormon
drwxr-xr-x 3 dell spies 3072 Jul 1 23:57 Quran
drwxr-xr-x 3 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:59 Rituals
Most of the directories have multiple files in them as well... I'm
curious as to why Anglican and Mormon are visible, but other
Christian sects such as Pentecostal and Catholicism aren't!
John
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 27 Jan 94 20:05:26
--------
EID:d2ec 1c3ba0a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc18
Hi Charlie...
On 25 Jan 94 04:21:34, Charlie J. Ray penned the following to STEVE QUARRELL
A
In reference to Discovery of the divine
CJR> So what are you doing in a "religious debate" echo if you are so fussy
CJR> about religion? You don't believe in religion, remember? Why does
it
CJR> matter so much to you?
This isn't a "religious debate" echo though... it's a religION
debate echo. Most of us are here for entertainment... B-})
CJR> I don't proselytize or force my views on anyone who doesn't want to
CJR> hear them. However, I do not allow anyone to violate my right to
free
CJR> speech on moral and political issues, as well as the freedom of
CJR> religion.
Have your rights been violated? Has anyone denied you free speech
such as on some other "religious debate" echoes where non-believers
can get their feed cut for speaking freely?
CJR> disinterested out of your delusional fantasies. Should I repeat it
a
CJR> thousand more times until you get it through your thick head?
CJR> Likewise, leave me out of your hateful tirades. Maybe you atheists
CJR> could learn something about civility and humility from your Christian
CJR> friends--but in this echo that seems too much to expect from juvenile
CJR> attitudes and immature personalities. Does that characterize all
CJR> atheists? If so I would much rather be around a bunch of loving
CJR> pie-in-the-sky Christians than a bunch of rude, know-it-all,
CJR> anti-intellectual, irrational atheists any day.
If you desire a place where you can share your warm and fuzzie
feelings, go to a Bible study echo or someplace similar. This echo
is obviously not the place for you. However, regardless of the
somewhat juvenile behaviour of some of the members here, there are
some interesting discussions relating to mythology and the history
of religion(s) among other topics. Too bad you'll miss most of
those...
As for being around "loving pie-in-the-sky Christians", that's fine
if the subject of religion NEVER comes up. For some reason it can
turn turn otherwise quite likeable normal people into rude,
know-it-all, anti-intelletual and irrational zealots! This is the
echo where you can do that without being off-topic.
pax vobiscum
John
... If it's not private netmail, then it's a public free for all.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Re: Dss
Date: 27 Jan 94 20:23:32
--------
EID:35c4 1c3ba2e0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc19
Hi Joshua...
On 22 Jan 94 03:45:20, Joshua Lee penned the following to John Musselwhite
In reference to Re: Dss
JM> It's not named as such...
JL> Perhaps the book was wrong? It wasn't a book on Dead Sea scrolls,
JL> though it *did* have several extra-canonical psalms directly from
JL> them. (i.e. the Thanksgiving scroll.)
Well, the list I put up was from the Qumran caves only, and there
were other caves nearby with other writings in them. Could it have
been from one of those?
JM> Essenes. I think many of the scrolls were stored in the
JM> caves for one reason or another.
JL> That's a good point.
JL> However, I think it's indisputable that the sect(s?) who owned many
of
JL> the "extra-canonical" documents were heavily engaged in
JL> Greco-Zoastrian sycnretism.
I wouldn't be quite so positive about it, but it does appear to be
that way depending upon which documents you mean.
JL> From the exclusivist "cult apart" tone of much of the new material,
JL> some of it IMVHO was of Essene origin. It would be unlikely for Tzedok
JL> to have a counter-elite religious doctrine in their psalms, since they
JL> *were* the elite. Also, of course, the Tzedokim had a restrictive view
JL> of canon, which the people who stored scrolls at the Qumran site
JL> obviously did not have. :-)
If the Essenes were the "librarians" I'm sure they would be keeping
everything they could get their hands on. We only got what
survived, not what existed at the time.
JL> I agree, perhaps the hints of this are more due to a later influx of
JL> Neo-Platonic and Mystery-religion beliefs common at the time amongst
JL> the gentile population rather than being part of the original nature
JL> of Yeshuah Ben-Yosef. However, I do note a certain "lone dissent"
JL> thread linking the gospels and the message of other false messiahs.
JL> Perhaps this is more Paul and the Gnostics speaking than the original
JL> person though...
I certainly think it was Paul speaking, or at least mostly his
influence.
JL> Incidentally, if Jesus was crucified, he was quite lucky that he died
JL> when he did.
You mean, if he died on the cross. The conclusion I have come to is
he could not possibly have done so if the biblical narrative is
correct.
JL> After a thousand executions of Rabbis and revolutionaries
JL> by cross per year didn't seem to do the trick, the Romans moved on to
JL> execution by metal comb or by fire... The former method was used to
JL> execute Rabbi Akiva during the reign of the Emporer Hadrian Y"SH.
Somehow, lions don't seem so bad... B-})
John
... We learn from history that we do not learn from history.
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Political Witchcraft
Date: 27 Jan 94 23:04:16
--------
EID:9f13 1c3bb880
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc1a
Hi Dan...
On 25 Jan 94 06:00:11, Dan Sereduick penned the following to John Musselwhit
e
In reference to Political Witchcraft
DS> -----[ First John Musselwhite Said: ]-----
> If he was almost any other party than NDP I would vote for him
DS> Well, I don't know anything about the NDP...what is it, exactly?
The New Democratic Party is Canada's socialist political party. I
won't go into details, but as far as I'm concerned they make great
opposition but very poor leaders as is evidenced in the province of
Ontario...
John
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Prophesy
Date: 27 Jan 94 23:12:02
--------
EID:c376 1c3bb980
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc1b
Hi Hec...
On 25 Jan 94 19:40:35, Hector Plasmic penned the following to Steve Bedard
In reference to Prophesy
SB>Josephus describes the book of Daniel existing before Alexander had
SB>completely conquered the Persians as seen in Antiquities XI.5: "And
HP> Amazing that Flavius Josephus, 37 AD - ~95 AD, could have chronicled
HP> what Alexander III (aka Alexander the Great), king of Macedon, said,
HP> since Alexander lived from 356 BC - 323 BC, about 300 years earlier.
Don't forget Josephus had access to documents which no longer
exist. We have no idea what they said as opposed to what Josephus
said they said. If they said what Josephus said they said then
Alexander could have said what he's said to have said. Got
that? B-})
HP> The boy must have had _real_ sharp hearing...
He managed to stay alive during a very violent period of history.
He probably DID!
John
... Did I say that?
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From: Stuart Lumgair
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Hector the Horrible
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:34:53
--------
EID:df10 1c3c1440
MSGID: 1:134/32.666 a52dfb31
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d45a166
On (25 Jan 94) Richard Thorneycroft wrote to Hector Plasmic...
RT>
RT> Ah well, here we go again. Dear Hector, poor heart, there is a vast
RT> body of evidence existing. The sworn testimony of tens of millions
of
RT> individuals, evidence of a spiritual influence that changed their
RT> lives.
RT> This evidence has been documented for over 1900 years and corroborated
RT> by millions of friends and neighbors.
This may be so, but what about the hundreds of other religions
that can produce exactly the same evidence (sworn testimony) as
the one you choose to follow. It would seem that you are saying
that they are also equally "true" .... which I am sure will
scare the pants off of you once you realize it .
I can find you people who will swear to the spiritual
influences on their lives of many different gods, goddesses,
and other supernatual critters .... their belief does not make
it reality, only truth to them as an individual.
... What Kodak and condoms have in common: They both capture great moments
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: Stuart Lumgair
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: The Humanist Creed
Date: 28 Jan 94 03:14:35
--------
EID:da8d 1c3c19c0
MSGID: 1:134/32.666 1f5d64ab
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 b4686a44
MB> --- PPoint 1.78
MB> * Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
MB> 3615/50 51
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: Kirby Nixon
To: David Rice
Sub: ## ### ## ##### (guess)
Date: 28 Jan 94 09:36:00
--------
EID:77e8 1c3c4c80
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4978fb
~~From the electronic bitstream David Rice was saying~~
-{ ## ### ## ##### (guess) }-
DR> For the past two years I have flooded the South Orange County
DR> area of Southern Californicate with dollar bills that I have
DR> inked out the "In God We Trust" error. There must be several
DR> thousand bills floating around that have been corrected by
DR> me.
I've never heard of anyone going to that extreme to correct an error of
occult
prattle. Not like it didn't need doing though.
DR> Yesterday I receied as change two of these bills back. Someone
DR> had taken the time to write "In God We Trust" back on them
DR> in felt-tip ink!
gawd moves in strange ways. Come to think of it, so does Steve Winter.
Connection?
... Trill Burger, Try me, you'll feel like a new person.
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From: Kirby Nixon
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Marantha Archive List, Humping Sheep for Heyzuz!
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:19:33
--------
EID:98b9 1c3c5a60
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4978fc
~~From the electronic bitstream Fredric Rice was saying~~
dc> +Origin: MONOTHEISM Network! Killing gods for fun and profit!
FR> I need to grep the archives and make a list of these. }:-}
I've already got one Fredric, getting bigger all the time too. I'll post
it
in about a couple of weeks or so to let it get a little bit bigger.
... "You dare to question me? Isn't my word good enough?" - Dopefish
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 11:29:01
--------
EID:d8bd 1c3c5ba0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d498662
Hi Charlie...
CJR> Show me the bones of Jesus in the grave and I will be satisfied that
CJR> He did not rise from the dead. Show me credible historical accounts
CJR> by Greek, Roman, or Jewish historians that describe how the
CJR> resurrection was faked. That should be easy for you.
The bones are lying in a grave below Masada where the Israelis
buried them a few years back after analysis. As for the historical
account, the Bible contains a lot about that account which could
NOT have happened, which gives us a clue about what DID happen.
BTW, the scroll which accompanied the bones of Yeshua ben Yosef is
now undoubtedly in the Vatican, where it will NEVER be released.
John
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Dan Forster
Sub: Jesus,Napoleon and Ceasar
Date: 28 Jan 94 22:48:50
--------
EID:0e10 1c3cb600
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4a084b
Hi Dan...
On 26 Jan 94 23:44:00, Dan Forster penned the following to John Musselwhite
In reference to Jesus,Napoleon and Ceasar
JM> the basic information, that there was
JM> a person called "Jesus", is probably correct.
JM>
DF> PROBABLY!!!
DF> What do you think B.C. stands for? No other single Man has ever
The term was introduced by the church to help justify and
popularize its movement. The actual historical method of dating has
nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, and in fact he was likely born
4-8 years before the turn of the era. The more accurate terms
"Before Common Era - B.C.E." and "Common Era - C.E." are in
worldwide use now by most scholars. B.C. is a character in a comic
strip...
DF> changed the course of history more than Jesus Christ. If you doubt
I feel the man himself had very little to do with it, but rather
the religion was an invention of Saul/Paul's.... but then, you
probably knew that!
DF> the historicity of Jesus, then you might as well though out Napoleon
DF> and Julius Ceasar. Jesus has more historical evidence compiled than
DF> both of them put together. You know that - OR are you saying you have
DF> checked every history book for the evidence of the existence of Christ
DF> and have not found enough to convince you.
I have searched enough of history (so far) to determine he probably
did live and that it is not entirely myth. Practically everything
else is, though. Without Paul, the Jesus People would be a footnote
in history just as Josephus' _original_ mention of him was. As for
historical evidence, what sort of quality evidence can you show? A
photograph? How about a painting or sculpture made from an actual
sitting? Handwritten documents or perhaps a tax record? How about
an eye-witness report from one of the multitude who were fed from
the few loaves and fishes given to another Rabbi for study? Surely
SOMEONE there would have reported something like that and it could
be verified from an independant source rather than from someone
close to Jesus (or supposedly close) and written in the gospels.
DF> My dear friend - I wish you would - you might "get saved".
For what purpose... your own ego and beliefs? I know it would make
YOU feel better, but I have read enough history to understand the
origins of the Christian myths and see them for what they are.
Whether they have anything to do with a supreme being is up to you
to interpret, but for me the Bible is just another collection of
documents with its own history to be studied and correlated to
other documents.
DF> ! Origin: REFLECTIONS BBS: Three Hills, Alberta (403) 443-5928
How are things in the Bible Belt? I would have thought this echo
would have been turned off LONG ago! B-})
pax vobiscum
John
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: The evidence is in. You're insulting and tedious.
Date: 28 Jan 94 23:19:25
--------
EID:82d8 1c3cba60
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4a084c
Hi Richard...
On 25 Jan 94 15:17:33, Richard Thorneycroft penned the following to Marty
Le
ipzig
In reference to Re: The evidence is in. You're insulting and tedious.
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
RT> Back off mad dog, what allegory and legend? Are you on drugs? This
RT> is a definition of _evidence_. Textbook stuff. Brain dead??? (satire
RT> only, calm down.).
OK... let's look at textbook stuff. You have evidence a certain
frame of mind can provide a transformation of personality. I can
provide that as well without using religion or relying on a "God"
to do the work FOR you. It takes 21 days and anyone can do it
without becoming addicted to a religion.
RT> I say He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to
RT> corroborate this witness, certainly enough to establish a _ground for
RT> belief_.
A ground for belief for some people, perhaps. Others have just
grown up.
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience, over a time period of 1900+ years. By
RT> definition this IS evidence. You may not like it, too bad pal, its
All is is, as I've mentioned, is evidence the human mind can be
influenced in many ways. Budhists have reported the same thing as
have Moslems, Jews, First Nations peoples and many others. If it is
evidence of a "god" it is only circumstantial.
RT> By definition this is evidence.
By definition it is hearsay.
ML> Bullshit. It is not manifest, physical nor tangible.
RT> You are redefining _evidence_, that's cheating pal. We are speaking
RT> of evidence concerning a spiritual influence that has changed a number
RT> of individuals.
Like Koresh, Bakker and Swaggart? How about Oral Roberts and his
900 foot Jesus? Your theory that a supreme being has a positive
spiritual influence falls down on those, and MANY other points. My
theory of a psychological influence which can be controlled to
achieve the same effect covers those bases and many more.
RT> These individuals have testified, under oath (he he)
Does that include under torture as well? B-})
RT> about the nature of this transformation and witnesses can confirm the
RT> change.
Got anything from "The Journal of American Psychiatry" on the
subject?
John
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: All
Sub: Political Witchcraft continues...
Date: 28 Jan 94 23:31:30
--------
EID:0cc6 1c3cbbe0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4a084d
Hi All...
The saga of Sam Wagar, the political candidate in British Columbia
who is a practicing member of a Pagan religion, continues.
The New Democratic Party (NDP) of the Western Canadian province has
stripped Mr. Wagar of his candidacy, and he is now suing the party
for what he calls "religious discrimination". The media in the
Fraser Valley community had already stated they "didn't want that
kind of candidate" in their riding, and the NDP has replied the
question is not one of discrimination, but of honesty. Although the
party does not require a candidate to disclose his or her religion
upon application, Mr. Wagar's choice of religion is apparently too
controversial for the party, which espouses religious freedom.
I'll post more information as it comes in.
John
... The best audience is intelligent, educated & mildly drunk
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Re: BD Trial News
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:06:19
--------
EID:6c75 1c3fa0c9
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f93fd2a
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Skeptic (Critical examinations)"
* Originally by Terry Liberty Parker
* Originally to Tad Cook
* Originally dated 29 Jan 1994, 10:42
Sorry, this post in this echo was not intended, I screwed up. BTW, as to
your
characterization of me as "right wing" ranter, I am a current member of
ACLU,
founder of Austin's clothing optional apartments, and supporter of now legally
ackowledged nude-recreation on some of Austin's lakes and streams. I have
a
high profile in this area for oppossing vice laws and
thier enforcement. It helps to know your left from your right. ENJOY!
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Peter Vanderkam
Sub: WHO WROTE WHICH BIBLE?
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:02:57
--------
EID:6c29 1c3fa85c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f950456
REPLY: 1:229/510@FIDONET.ORG 1e813698
PID: FM 2.02
pv> BIBLE INTRO.
You didn't mention which one you're talking about. I will make the assumption
that you are talking about the classical Christian mythologies, okay?
pv> The Bible is said to be the "least known best-seller of
pv> all times". It continuous to be sold by the millions on a
That's hardly surprising since believers in other
deities were murdered as a matter of company policy.
---
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Hitler was a lovely Christian
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:13:57
--------
EID:16e4 1c3fa9bc
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PID: FM 2.02
fr> Hitler was a lovely Christian, too, who justified the genocide
fr> of Jews using the same mythologies; specifically, the Isis/Jesus
fr> mythos and its "clearing out of the temple."
jv> Hey, Dan may not have the balls to see it but I'll be
jv> happy to make the request.
Dountless Dan couldn't locate... Oh what's the use.
jv> Please, Mr Rice, will you post Hitler's speech?
Certainly. And, please, call me Fred.
Date: 25 May 93 16:31:59
From: David Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Subj: Hitler again?!
_________________________________________________________________________
JS> "I beg to differ with you."
Don't beg. Stand up and debate like a man.
JS> Hitler was not Christian. He pursecuted the church during his
JS> reign and killed church members and leaders in the death camps."
No, Hitler was a devout Christian, believing heart and soul in his
Lord Jesus Christ, and received full backing from the Roman Catholic
Church when he started his Labor Party. He got full backing when he
took over the Nazi party. It was only much later that he started
going after RICH and POLITICALLY POWERFUL cults that he became
"anti-religion."
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior
as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness,
surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for
what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who,
God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the
brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
the Jewish poison.
"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was
for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but
I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...
"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we
are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as
a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look
on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at
the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness
and misery.
"When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in
their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I
would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for
them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn
against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and
exploited."
Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
Published in "My New Order"
Quoted in "Freethought Today" April 1990
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
Date: 25 May 93 16:32:28
From: David Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Subj: Hitler again?!
____________________________________________________________________________
"Religious writers often claim that the cause of Nazism is the
secularism or the scientific spirit of the modern world. This
evades the facts that the Germans at the time, especially in
Prussia, were one of the most religious peoples in Western Europe;
that the Weimar Republic was a hotbed of mystic cults, of which
Nazism was one; and that Germany's largest and most devout religious
group, the Lutherans, counted themselves among Hitler's staunchest
followers."
"Given their commitment to the method of faith (and their tendency
to imitate the Catholic Church), it is not astonishing that some
Nazis went all the way in this issue. A tendency never given the
status of official ideology yet fairly prominent in the movement
was voiced in a demand made by several of its leading figures
(though Hitler himself regarded it as impractical until the Nazis
won the war): the demand that Nazism itself be turned into a full-
fledge religion. These voices urged a state religion supplanting
the older creeds, with its own symbols, its own rituals, and its
own zealots avid to convert christians into fanatic Hitler-believers,
as, once, ancient missionaries had converted Pagans into fanatic
christians. "Adolf Hitler," exclaimed one such believer (the Nazi
Minister for Church Affairs), "is the true Holy Ghost!" (15)
"The Nazis did not survive long enough to complete this development.
To the end, they could not decide whether to retain christianity,
construing Nazism merely as its latest, truest version ("positive
christianity," this wing often called it)--or to concoct a
distinctively Nazi creed out of a hodgepodge of elements drawn from
Pagan Teutonic mythology and romanticist metaphysics. In either case,
however, whether advanced as a form of or a successor to christianity,
what Nazism did unfailingly demand of its followers was the essence of
the religious mentality: an attitude of awed, submissive, faithful
adoration. "We believe on this earth SOLEY (emphasis by writer) in
Adolf Hitler...," intoned Dr. Robert Ley to a reverent audience of
15,000 Hitler Youths. "We believe that God has sent us Adolf
Hitler." (16)
Excerpts from "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.
(15) Viereck, op. cit., p.289; quoting from Eugene Lyons, "Dictators
into Gods" (American Mercury, March 1939).
16) Ibid.; quoting from the New York Times, February 11, 1937.
But of course, no one was killed in the name of god. (Eyes closed
tight and exclaiming, "Did not!")
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
Date: 25 May 93 16:32:59
From: David Rice
To: Joe Savelli
Subj: Hitler again?!
____________________________________________________________________________
Most of the mainstream Christian denominations in Germany
expressed support for Hitler and for his regime at some time
or other.
The Catholic Bishops conference in 1933 "expressed joy that through
the new state Christianity had been promoted, morality improved, and
and the struggle against Bolshevism and godlessness condicted with
energy and success"
In the same year, 1933 "The Catholic Students Union hails the
National Socialist revolution as the greatest spiritual breakthrough
of our time".
In 1934, responding to an enquiry from the Ministry for Church
affairs, the Catholic Seamen's Mission listed the books and papers
they provided to seamen. The list included Hitler's own anti-
semitic Mein Kampf, and the newspaper Volkischer Beobachter.
In 1936, the Bishops of Hannover, Wurtemburg and Bavaria signed
a statement that said in part "We, together with the Reich Church
Committee, stand behind the Fuhrer in the life-struggle of the
German people against Bolshevism. In this struggle, the Church
mobilizes the forces of Christian belief against unbelief."
In 1939, The Bishop of Hannover, Marahans, was one of the signers
of a statement that explained the need for the foundation of an
institute to "dejudaize" the Church. "The foundation of this
institute is based on the conviction that Jewish influence in
all areas of German life, including therefore that of the Church
and religon, must be brought to light and eliminated."
At the outbreak of war, the Protestant bishops signed a statement
which read in part "So at this hour too we join with our nation
in intercession for the Fuhrer and the Reich...."
In November 1941, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Rottenburg
wrote "The fact that so many believing soldiers are among the
lists of the fallen justifies the conclusion that it is above all
those soldiers with true Christian belief who have helped to win
the great victories."
It is also true that many individual Christians and Priests
resisted Hitler. However, the Churches themselves gave their
followers a highly ambiguous and collaborationist message.
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Fred gets philosophical -- take care little girls
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:45:30
--------
EID:7e96 1c3fadaf
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f950458
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 0e026bd5
PID: FM 2.02
jv> Please, Mr Rice, will you post Hitler's speech?
There you go, Jonny. David went through a lot of work to type it in. I
hope
that everyone gets a copy if they have yet to do so. Certainly the Christians
among us will denounce it as a forgery even as all they need do is read
Hitle
rs most famous work and learn the stark, embarrassing facts.
FR> You don't know that, nationally, and depending upon the
FR> brand name your brand of Christianity chooses, upwards of
FR> 66% of your clergy is homosexual.
dl> Actually I KNOW that mine has no homosexual ministers INTERnationally,
dl> as there are no Bishops who are not the husband of one wife, as is
dl> required in the Bible, something that most churches do not follow.
jv> I laughed so hard at this, both cats went out the window (into the rain,
jv> no less) and when I laughed so long I was gasping and coughing, my
jv> ol'lady got out of bed and came in to see if I needed her to call an
jv> ambulance or something.
It does point to a certain lack of, well, reality. It is a belief
that a lot of believers hold even as they uncover one and toss him or her
out
of the nest. They merely pronounce that __NOW__ the fags are all gone.
jv> Yeah, "911? My ol'man just read some stupid shit posted by a
jv> fundie, and now he's not breathing so good, can you send help?"
At times I get into that, yeah, yet SpinRon is quiet now. Were
you a
ble to get your breathing back to normal or did you require external electrosh
ock? I nerely lost my bowels when Conbadly made his comment about how UV
muta
tes people in 5 hourse. }:-}
jv> Someone better send this boy a clue. Just don't write "Educational
jv> Material" on the envelope or he'll panic and toss it in the fireplace,
jv> lest he (god forbid) learn something.
"God forbid?" That is sadly too true!
I would like to see what he thinks about Austin Miles and his brief comments
a
bout the homos within the supposedly "clean" Pentecostal Circus. Looking
at i
t rom the inside it's easy to believe yet when the religious blinders come
dow
n, we find that people are people and they will continue to be people reguardl
ess of their deity beliefs or lack of same.
fr> You know no such thing. Austin Miles notes in his book "Don't Call
fr> me Brother" that the majority of the ministers within the Pentecostal
fr> "Asses of gods" maintained wives with or without families while also
fr> being caught engaging in one homosexual affair after another.
jv> And lots of 'em are married with children. Their children.
jv> Their own, biological children. Get it, Dan?
That's correct. Many have outwardly successfull marriages.
jv> I don't know where fundies got the idea
jv> that het sex is impossible for gay men.
I have a Guilda here that says that his church demands that its clergy take
a
written or verbal oath or some kind and that members may as well.
And you're right. A dick can be used for quite a few things and, men being
wh
at they are, will use it depending upon their wishes rather than what their
re
ligious dictates demand.
Lovely, huh, Jonny? I see I have network mail waiting from a participant
who
thinks I'm gay. I wonder if I should cross-post it here.
fr> History proves you wrong in the mistaken belief that marriage to a
fr> male or a female negates the possibility of homosexuality -- or the
fr> probability within Christian clergy.
fr> By not recognizing the fact, you exhibit your intolerance, Dan.
jv> Now, that's a beneficial mistaken belief, Mr Rice. Het blindness has
jv> allowed gays and lesbians to use that camouflage for centuries. Now
you
jv> gotta go and blow their cover by telling this fundie that gay people
get
jv> married. How hateful of you.
Oh drat. Have I let a foo-pah? What will be my punishment, I wonder.
-=-
You know, Jonny. I feel the need to wax philosophical -- though Aaron is
bett
er qualified perhaps if I'm real careful I'll refrain from splatting anyone
wi
th a mess.
This very real issue of intolerance is growing by leaps and bounds. The
quest
ion is, does this constitue the last dieing gasps of a fish that has stunk
fro
m day one (as I hope) or is it the beginning of another Bosnia? 'Ethnic
clensi
ng as its finest yet centered around how someone uses their reproductive
organ
s?
If we, the as-yet unaffected, are to be dragged into what constitues civil
war
for the rights of fags, what posistions shall we take? Shall we stand and
be
murdered along side our homosexual brothers and sisters or shall we step
asid
e and allow the fags to be carted away? Their rights stripped from them?
Be
good Nazis? Shall we die with them, be accused of being fags and suffer
their
fate? Or will we save ourselves? Denounce them as 'abominations; as evil.'
Don't be an ass, Fred. We will save ourselves because we must. If circumstat
es continue as they are, constitutional and civil rights will be stripped
from
Americans and I, for one, will remain quiet.
It hasn't gotten that far and I pray that it doesn't. Yet, were I given
to ma
king predictions, I would claim I see it approaching.
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:47:14
--------
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MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f950459
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dl> Winter is pure hate mixed with batent lies and intentionally
dl> ignoring parts of that which he supposedly supports.
fr> As an aside, dismissing the inflamatory rhetoric I usually employ:
fr> Everyone here agrees with you. He is not representitive
fr> of Christianity and we recognize the fact. Neither is
fr> Joe Save-lie representitive and we recognize that fact. We
jv> They are, though representative of a sizeable subculture within
jv> christianity, and they do use christianity as one of their tools of
jv> oppression. They bear keeping an eye on, if nothing else.
Agreement. I must constantly be reminded that they're not pandemic, merely
ep
idemic.
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Proof
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:48:06
--------
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fr> "General Leipzig? Why's private Keeton clutching his crotch?"
fr> "Sorry, sir! He was unmanned by Private Martin. We found the chared
fr> remains, though." fragments>
jv> And all this time, I thought "unmanned" meant a variety
jv> of spacecraft operated robotically or by remote control.
Now you know better!
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:49:26
--------
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fr> @ Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby
jv> Very good, sir. And which wine would you like with that, sir?
STOP IT! Seriously, I can't take much more! <-gasp->!
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Rose
Sub: The End
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:50:30
--------
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PID: FM 2.02
sr> Hello Fredric!
Hey! It's our Rose come to be watered?
FR> The guy can't even acknowlege that his Jesus was once Isis
sr> Wow! No wonder diaper-boy always wore those flowing loose robes. It
sr> was done to hide *her* shapely figure! S/he did good work on that fake
sr> beard, as well. Fooled 'em completely! :)
It might explain his moon swings, yeah. Lovey dovey one day, genocide the
nex
t.
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 31 Jan 94 22:05:27
--------
EID:c8b7 1c3fb0ad
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f95045d
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d48ee06
PID: FM 2.02
MS> It has not been found
MS> to contain any themeatic contradictions throughout, and the
MS> record of prophecies is unparralled by ANY work in history.
dm> Regarding the prophecies, your claim is similar to your claim of
dm> "tests". Have said prophecies been confirmed by believers only or by
dm> independent investigators?
Whatever answer he can dredge up, he is quite wrong. Nostradamaus (fuck
the s
pelling! I mean just __fuck__ the spelling!) is the best-known seer of
all
tyme. His predictions have had will have better success than any made in
the
classical christian mythologies which were written after the event.
quatrans designs to be eqqually ambiguuios as classic myths have grows and
gro
ws. asti spumante strikes when laezet expects them. Tonight is
a good
was a good night as any to blotto just for shins and grins with satanic
music
playing to piss off the exiles and fuck em is they'renot wolkrking in the
mor
ning, huh?
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: Real unconvincing evidenc
Date: 01 Feb 94 08:35:35
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 10088022
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d48fc72
PID: FM 2.02
dm>> Sometimes the fundies rub off on me here.
FR> Obituaries, Los Angeles Times, 25/Jan/94
FR> "Get it off me! Get it off me!"
FR> - Don Martin, dead at 35.
dm> Now THAT was some years ago . . .
And we're so happy to have recovered.
~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
- Rodney Matejek
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 01 Feb 94 08:42:08
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 10088023
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d49124b
PID: FM 2.02
dr>> Why does god hate us so much?
FR> It was aiming for __you__! Bad aim, that's all.
dm> God's aim is notoriously poor: he draws a bead on a sinner only to
dm> demolish an orphanage nearby. Either that, or innocent bystanders
dm> REALLY piss him off.
While David certainly couldn't be listed among the "innocent bystanders,"
ther
e certainly are enough children killed by buildings falling on them due
to ear
thquakes. I wonder how many kids got wiped out in India.
So far, the believer in deities has yet to offer any valid justification
on wh
y their deities would wipe out 20,000 people. One wonders if what bubbles
thr
ough their little minds is the unspoken belief that it was because they're
mos
tly Hindus.
Also, if you want to look at the Christian belief in 'sin,' and the Christian
belief in punishment for 'sin,' one has to ask why Las Vegas isn't wiped
by ea
rthquakes every day.
~*~ If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
- Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 01 Feb 94 09:20:44
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b0
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d4927b1
PID: FM 2.02
FR> No reuctionism was employed in Steves' comment. In the classical
FR> Christian mythologies, it states quite clearly, without the
FR> required interpretation for the removal of an embarrassment, that
FR> those are happy who bash their young ones heads against the rocks.
dm> Sorry, Fredric, but you have Psalm 137 a bit off. It is not the
dm> heads of their own kids that these happy men dash against rocks.
dm> It is the heads of somebody ELSE's kids that they do.
Oh my. Have I been proceeding from a false assumption? Well if it's the
_OTH
ER_ peoples children then, by all means, certainly it's a worthwhile and
enter
taining nights activities for Christians. Genocide demanded by
myths
that people believe is so lovely.
dm> Makes all the difference in the world, you see.
Total agreement. We _are_ in Kansas.
dm> If they did their own, they would not qualify as upright men
dm> in the eyes of their god (unless, of course, their little brats
dm> had done something that REALLY torques god's pork, then it
dm> would be O.K.)
Like talk back to their father, sure.
~*~ What we've got here is - failure to communicate. - Cool Hand Luke
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 01 Feb 94 09:24:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b1
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d4931f6
PID: FM 2.02
#include Dan Lafferty
DL> Perhalps you should start by not intentionally insulting my beliefs.
dm> And just how do you propose that anyone insult your beliefs
dm> UNINTENTIONALLY?
That's quite true. Had I wanted to insult his beliefs, I would have pointed
o
ut that he wishes to emulate ignorant sheep-fuckers who had to be demanded
by
his deities to stop doing it.
For all that, he does more damage than I do.
~*~ I have the false christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethern),
the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me.
- Steve Winter
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Tag: PR_CULTS was Added.
Date: 01 Feb 94 09:39:14
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b2
REPLY: 1:2617/117 0f0c967b
PID: FM 2.02
DS>> Christians fighting Christians...hehehe...
hp> Yo, Dan. They've been at it for nearly 2000 years.
ds> Good point... :)
In Lebanon there was at one time 12 warring factions some of which were
Christ
ian varieties. The United Nations stepped in making it an even 13.
In Holland, Jews were killing Jews for very minor differences in ideals.
That
stopped when Christians started killing Jews and they had a common enemy
to f
ight against. The Catholic Pope put an end to that and had the guilty
executed. Jews looked at their loss of a common enemy but realized that
to co
ntinue to fight each other was damn stupid and I don't think they continued.
In contemporary times, we can see Catholics killing Prodestants and Prodestant
s killing Catholics in Northern Ireland. One wonders if it would take an
Isla
mic occupation to reunite Ireland.
~*~ If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless. - Robert
Curry
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: She can handle it any time she wants to
Date: 01 Feb 94 09:49:21
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b3
REPLY: 1:2617/117 0f0c967c
PID: FM 2.02
fr> No not-believer in this forum says that deities do not
fr> exist, Dan. They simply do not believe in the thousands
fr> of deities. Or fairies. Or any invisible superfriend.
fr> The not-believers are quire correct in stating that there
fr> is no evidence for these thousands of deities yet no one
fr> has tried to concoct a "theory" -- religious or otherwise.
ds> So you're saying that they don't believe or disbelieve in gods by
ds> definition, they just don't believe in the gods that have been
ds> thought up?
Nope. It is silly and irrational to believe in deities. When one shows
up,
then it would be silly and irrational to deny its existance.
Make believe has its advantages, too, of course. Who hasn't dreamed of
imposs
ible missions in outer space with riches to be won? Evil to be stomped?
Thin
gs to be learned and understood which humanity needs to know?
Fantasy drives the engines of inquiry. Deity belief clogs the wheels.
ds> Sounds like selective disbelief to me... "Well,
ds> there might be a god, but no one has found 'em yet..."
Stop trying to read new meaning into other peoples words, Dan. You have
been
burned at the stake for demanding that respect is __required__ without checkin
g to see if the object of that respect is worthy of it. Being burned so
badly
isn't cause to rework peoples statements to turn them into fundies.
ds> Yeah.
If you wish.
~*~ Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the
Holy Spirit caused on of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Trent Hall
Sub: Ark hoax
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:06:47
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b4
REPLY: 1:123/67 2d4a855a
PID: FM 2.02
SS> known as mathematics and science, driven by a bunch
SS> of ruthless atheists, for sure. The earth is roughly
SS> a sphere and we can calculate the volume of a sphere, Trent,
th> Such as Sir Hoyle?
The same Hoyle who is the creationist? The same Hoyle who wants to try
to sal
vage his Steady State Hypothesis? The same Hoyle who trys to make people
thin
k he speaks from authority in areas of biology when he holds no credentials
in
biology whatsoever? The same Hoyle who thinks that mathematics can be used
t
o discount biology?
SS> without the use of calculus. The bible said that all the highest
SS> mountains were covered (that's what the bible said and we know
SS> that the bible wouldn't lie...
th> I'm glad to see you realize this 8'>
Mythologies can't lie. People who believe in them are not lieing, either.
One
can't open a Wonder Woman comic and claim that the comic is lieing or that
th
ose who believe in Her are lieing.
One can point at the believer in the classical Christian mythologies or
the Wo
nder Woman comic and wonder at the willful ignorance and religious blindness,
of course, yet one can not demand that there is a lie in any of it.
SS> lie, would it Trent?), so we can just extend the radius of the existing
SS> sphere up to the top of Mt. Everest + 20 feet ( that's what the bible
SS> says and we know that the bible wouldn't lie, would it Trent?) and we
SS> get the new projected sphere of the earth (hint: about another six miles).
th> There you go again !!! Can
Calm down, Trent. Take your pill. Don't get your rosary beads in a twist.
th> you prove that Mt. Everest is the same height now as before the Flood?
There never was a flood so your demand is rather silly, don't you think?
Do you know __anything__ about subduction zones? Plate tecktonics? Anything?
th> Another one of your shaky assumptions.
You are the clown assuming that there was a 'flood.' Since there is zero
evid
ence whatsoever for such a flood, don't you think that it's rather silly
to be
making it?
th> open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened." Now, if a great deal
th> of water came up from underground, perhaps it is conceivable, even to
an
th> athiest, that the ground might sink.
Your mythologies specificallly state that it rained. trying to salvage
an unw
orkable religious superstition is disgusting to watch in its ignorance.
th> And even an athiest is probably able to recognize that
th> if the God they deny is able to create the universe, then
th> moving a large quantity of water would be no great challenge.
If you want to invoke magic to salvage your beliefs, that's even more disgusti
ng. Your deities couldn't even win a battle against iron chariots. Your
deiti
es couldn't just snap their collective fingers and kill the 'sinners.'
Once you present evidence for the existance of one or any of your deities,
the
n we may look at it to see if it created a flood. Since there is no evidence
whatsoever for such a flood, don't you think it's rather silly to say that
the
re was a flood?
th> But of course that is one consideration that an athiest rejects
th> out of hand as not empirically proven and therefore not true.
You may present evidence at any time, Trent.
th> No argument. It -was- a huge amount of water. And I did very well
in
th> high school and college science and physics classes, thank you.
What a sad commentary upon contemporary education.
Where did the water come from and where did it do? More importantly, how
did
the latent heat in precipitation keep from boiling the Earths' atmosphere
off
into a sattelite orbit? How did all of the animals survive? What did they
ea
t?
SS> is a HUGE problem with the flood? It's a
SS> lie, it didn't happen. It couldn't happen.
th> Unless a supernatural God did it.
Why invoke one mythological entity to explain-away another myth?
th> And didn't tell -all- of the details.
th> And therein lies the biggest difference in our perspective. I allow
th> for the existence of God in the equation. You apparently do not.
Your equation has many flaws in it. You have variables you can't even define.
You concoct values and constants to salvage superstitious beliefs.
tk> Does it follow that you think the universe created itself?
The universe couldn't be said to have been 'created.'
Would you like a lesson in cosmologies and nuclear physics, I wonder?
~*~ The righteous rise with burning eyes of hatred and ill-will:
Madmen, fed on fear and lies, to beat and burn and kill - Rush
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:11:24
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b5
PID: FM 2.02
ML> And please don't throw me in that echo, massa.
JM> What?
And Tar Baby? He says nothing.
The literary knowledge exhibited by the fundy is truely astounding.
ml> Think, Br'er Fundy, think.
It's a shame. Aesops Fables have also been mostly lost to time.
ml> Duck and cover...
That's "tuck and bake."
~*~ And I can't be holding to what you got when all you got is hurt - U2
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Pluto? Far out...
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:15:34
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b6
PID: FM 2.02
DL> I am not a fundie,
My but we're seeing a lot of fundies say this.
ml> Quack, quack, quack...
Webbed feet for Jesus!
~*~ This is the A_THEIST echo--- we don't do sodomy(s) here. :-)
- David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:18:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b7
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e94f22
PID: FM 2.02
jf> Please see my general letter adressed to ALL on this echo.
If it's a run-on sentence devoid of thought like most, I'll give it a miss.
BTW: You need only post your message to 'all.' You don't need to increase
the
traffic and lower the bandwidth by informing everyone to get their tape
recor
ders running.
~*~ Point the finger slow to understand.
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand. - METALLICA
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: A response...
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:20:53
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b8
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e951f8
PID: FM 2.02
jf> Again, I'll agree with all of you who said that the crusades were a
jf> tragedy. But I feel that they were done in the name of a civil/state
jf> religion, rather than genuine Christianity.
That doesn't address any of the concerns which were presented to you. You
mer
ely restated your beliefs and failed to address a single complaint.
Try again!
Since you are not in agreement with what Christianity has historically done
an
d what it continues to do, why did you become a club member? Why do you
think
that you can join the KKK and demand that you're not a bigot?
More: What makes you think that the Catholic Popes from the 13'th to the
17't
h centuries were not Christians?
~*~ (I don't go anywhere without my lesbians.) - David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: GOD HAS LEFT
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:27:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1b9
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499494
PID: FM 2.02
#include George Wells
GW> I do not post this to upset anyone, nor do I expect to be flamed
GW> and/or treated harshly for my opinions. Just sharing my thoughts,
GW> that is all.
rt> Thats very nice George, but heresy is
rt> heresy and deserves wee bit of warmth!
George presented the _respectable_ posistion that there are deities and
he
refrained from including the better educated in his beliefs. And you just
can't stand it when a True Christian shows himself, can you?
rt> I was going to hammer you, but listen, take courage He will return.
You are one sick little monkey, Richard.
rt> I pray the Lord will convince you of his concern for you.
And threatening him is hardly conducive to a positive image.
rt> Love in Jesus RT
Well drag it out and wipe it off. Jesus can't lay around all day, you know.
~*~ If you get all bent out of shape reading this, I DARE YOU TO
PROVE ME WRONG!!!! Otherwise fuck off - Rick Vanderzwaag
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Amen!
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:28:43
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1ba
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5336
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> Amen, Jerry! Welcome to this corner of Hell, and good luck!
Do you even know the origins of your "Hell" myth?
~*~ You're soaking in it now. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:31:27
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1bb
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3b02bf89
PID: FM 2.02
mg>> fundies like to interject here simply does not exist. Too
mg>> bad that the fundy in question is not likely to.
FR> I have learned _some_ of what you've talked about. And doubtless
FR> we'll see the same claim many more times to further hone the
FR> debunk skills.
mg> I have, this very day, areafixed skeptic, atheist, and
mg> evolution from Steve Q. Now I'll have three times the fun.
Different fun, certainly. And Church&State would be a good Holy Threesom.
~*~ You act like you've never had love and you want me to go without -
U2
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:33:58
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1bc
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3b0354b3
PID: FM 2.02
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
mg> Hail Satan, Johnny.
Excuse me. Satan wants to use the phone.
~*~ Look at that mama; she's got it sticking in the
camera! Man.... I wish I had some - D.S.
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Mythology
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:44:04
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1bd
REPLY: 1:247/133 0f0b613f
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Are the better educated to stand aside and allow the superstitious
FR> to include them in their bizzare beliefs? Are the better educated
FR> to stand and smile as the believers in mythology try to teach their
FR> mythologies as fact to the better educated peoples' children? Or
FR> kill the homosexuals? String up the blacks?
sb> Is the only way you can defend your views, defining Christianity
sb> by the worst parts of what a few people done?
"Few people?" Hardly. We're talking the majority here. We're talking
about
company policy. We're talking about ideologies which demand tyranny. You
may
point at history and claim, "well, Catholics aren't _TRUE_ Christians" yet
yo
u'll be trying to convince yourself. You may point at David Duke, Randal
Terr
y, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones et al. and claim, "well, they're not TRUE Christi
ans also." Yet, once again, you'll only be trying to convince yourself."
We're looking at __actions__, not claims, Steve. You may join the KKK and
dem
and that you don't agree with company policy yet you are only trying to
fool y
ourself. You may claim that Christianity is a set of ideologies designed
to l
ove everyone. You may claim anything you wish about Christianity, certainly.
Yet actions negate it entirely. While not pandemic, tyrants and hatred
are e
pidemic to Christianity. Do away with it and the justification is removed.
sb> The large majority of Christians would never think to
sb> try and hurt homosexuals, blacks or anyone else.
Actions give lie to that belief. _Most_ of the Christians who have waltzed
t
hrough here have expressed their intolerance, Steve. Many continue to.
Since
the evidence being presented indicates that you are mistaken, you may wish
to
rethink your posistion -- and mayhaps join a more tolerant club.
sb> Are you that insecure in your beliefs?
Are you trying to make everyone into a believer in your deities again?
Don't
you think you've been bombarded quite enough for doing so? 'For trying
to tur
n everyone into a believer?
~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
- Rodney Matejek
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fear And Loathing... Not
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:45:29
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1be
REPLY: 1:247/133 0f0b6140
PID: FM 2.02
sb>> So you are saying that you know my Christian friends
sb>> better than I do and you know for a fact that they
sb>> live in fear? Thats quite the claim!
FR> In fact I understand what motivates you better than you do.
sb> What makes you think that?
Who sees best? The atheist who adopts religious blinders and becomes a
theist
or the theist who removes the blinders and becomes an atheist?
~*~ Ron couldn't grasp iron filings even if his shit were magnetic.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:46:33
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1bf
REPLY: 1:247/133 0f0b6141
PID: FM 2.02
> I think most doctors would disagree with you. While
> lesbians do seem to be an exception
One wonders how many exceptions are needed before the occultist will ever
be c
onvinced that they are mistaken.
~*~ Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning. - Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:48:36
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1c0
PID: FM 2.02
FR> ~*~ Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of
FR> us. - Patrick Humphrey
ph> Just finger my account at is.rice.edu and you'll see
ph> the address to which those royalties should be sent...;-)
I need more direction in things Internet. I have been experimenting
s
ending commands to ftp and what not. How do I finger? More importantly,
do y
ou have any ASCII files which might help me work my way through batch processe
s in messages sent to Internet systems?
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Michael Malone
Sub: Mike Warnke
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:51:44
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1c1
REPLY: 1:114/7.0 d4af9811
PID: FM 2.02
FR> interesting. If I find anything, I'll post it to "All"
FR> under the subject, "Papal Bastards."
mm> I hope to be reading that soon!
Nothing yet. <-sob->
FR> + Origin: I want to have Steve Winter's baby (1:102/890)
mm> Hmmmm....once when I was younger, I wanted to have Johnny Winter's baby
mm> but I could not make up my mind between him and his brother Edgar.
mm>
I had hopes of drawing another Policy Complaint from the individual. Sadly,
i
t seems none of the True Christians in this forum have forwarded by comment
to
the clown.
~*~ Prepare to die, Earth skum! - Spaced Invaders
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Strickland
Sub: Rest of the Mormon Debate
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:59:50
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1008d1c2
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d49c305
PID: FM 2.02
C> There are at least twenty three references in the Bible
C> dealing with false prophets.
??> Perhaps the tests you refer to will show
??> up in another post. They fail to show up here.
FR> The rhetoric preamble is just so pat. Neat!
ds> This was the crowning jewel to the series of posts, the
ds> debate continues as we type [at least that's my guess,
ds> based on the fact that they where at it today].
It's about time that a Mormon has the gumption to defend itself.
C> The issue in these verses is whether the prophet
C> leads the people after another god.
FR> Which is funny because no Christian is willing to admit to the fact
FR> that they worship a pantheon and that the pantheon they worship is a
FR> conglomeration of other religions' deities.
ds> I've yet to see any xtian (Mormon or otherwise)
ds> admit that, even when shown damned good evidence.
Yeah.
~*~ Any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god. - Unknown
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:09:49
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100c119b
PID: FM 2.02
jm> BTW, in a sandstorm, you see the sand, not the wind.
That is correct. Then deduction is employed to concoct a theory about which
t
he wind may be infered. After testable, falsifiable theories are described,
m
odels to apply the tests to the theories are concocted and the crank is
turned
.
jm> God leaves evidence for all to see. A flower,
jm> the stars, a newborn baby of any species.
Where are your deductions, your theories, your testable and falsifiable
constr
ucts? If you are going to try to employ an analog, your analogy must be
an an
alog.
More to the point, why are you ignoring the _real_ facts behind the physical
b
iological formations of flowers and babies? Why are you ignoring the real
fac
ts behind nuclear physics and contemporary cosmologies. Specifically, why
are
you ignoring the testable, falsifiable, deuction-oriented models and adopting
that which is not testable or falsifiable?
Could it be because you _must__ try to convince yourself that your deities
are
evidenced when, as any rational, critically-thinking individual can conclude
safely, are not?
~*~ Living well is the best revenge - Gwenny The Pooh
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:12:08
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100c119c
PID: FM 2.02
JJ> No, he hates you. Vishnu loves you.
jm> Hello Jeff. Who is Vishnu?
One of the gods you worship yet have been programmed not to acknowledge.
In f
act, you most likely worship the Greek Goddess Isis who was reworked into
the
deity called Jesus. You worship the Germanic Goddess Hel when you believe
tha
t the domain she ruled over actually exists for 'sinners.'
There are many deities in the Christian pantheon. Since you are presenting
th
e belief that your deities are evidenced, Vishnu is just as likely a deity
as
any.
~*~ Yes we do debunk your biblical stories because they ARE debunk able.
- Tim Bennett
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:16:43
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100c119d
PID: FM 2.02
jm> Don't mind at all brother. I need help. Being attacked by others :)
Not at all. You helpless believers are presenting unsupportable claims
and th
e better educated are merely asking you to explain yourself asking you to
try
to provide a rational answer to our questions3.
You may very well like to believe that you are being attacked -- the martyr
co
mplex is a very real manifestation among Christians and Islamics and is
unusua
lly lacking in the more tolerant religions.
~*~ Atheism is no more a religion than abstinence is a form of drinking.
- Marilyn Burge
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:22:52
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100c119e
PID: FM 2.02
#include Martin Goldberg
MG> Anyone that pesters others with "good news" is a fundy. You claim
MG> that believers and non believers should let each other believe as they
MG> will? why go out and spread your fables and bother people?
jm> I'm not spreading fables to people who won't listen.
That's quite correct. You are presenting mythologies as though they were
fact
to individuals who have heard it all before. You also proceed from the
incor
rect assumption that this _is_ a deity debate forum. Quite simply, the
major
aspects of this forum is to show believers that they are presenting groundless
and baseless assertions not grounded in fact.
Unless you have any evidence for any of your deities, of course.
jm> If you didn't want to debate religion you wouldn't be here :)
What we end up discussing is superstitious ignorance, willful stupidity,
tyran
nies committed upon believer and innocent alike. What we end up discussing
is
the hatred and intolerance that religious superstitious dred can prompt
other
wise rational human beings into adopting.
Often what we find are the death-cults who like to try to drag everyone
else i
nto his or her misery. Christians seem incapable of leaving the better
educat
ed out of their mental illusions whereas the life-affirming religions such
as
Wicca and Pagani include no one but themselves.
If you must believe in deities, why adopt a deadly one? Why not adopt a
deity
belief based with a life-affirming religion rather than one which embrases
de
ath?
Why won't you answer my questions? Could it be because you are incapable
of a
nswering them truthfully and you feel a certain lack of desire to lie to
the a
theist?
~*~ If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
- Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: Chess, anyone?
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:52:50
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100cceb6
PID: FM 2.02
I wonder if you play chess. I also wonder if you would be interested in
playi
ng another like-oriented game in this forum.
Specifically, I can easilly demonstrate that you have a belief which is
irrati
onal at its base; a belief which will be checkmated and yet doubtless you
will
wish to deny.
The test isn't designed to test your faith as much as to evidence the irration
al aspects of blind belief so you can't bow-out upon claims of "blasphemy."
I
f you don't want to play, certainly just say so and I would be quite happy
to
drop the contest.
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Penis: A load bearing member (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Monkey business -- my aunt is NOT a monkey!
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:13:17
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100d317d
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 99b052e0
PID: FM 2.02
FR> From elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU!LIPPARD
FR> From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
FR> To: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org
FR> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:15:01 -0700 (MST)
FR> Meyer is definitely at Whitworth College, in Spokane.
FR> It is a Christian college, but not SDA.
FR>
mb> I checked with my SDA friend, and you're right; I was wrong. Sorry.
No problem. Mister Lippard has had to check his references at times and
corre
ct something he mentioned in his publications.
~*~ Airplanes are able to fly because God created the laws of nature
that allow it to fly. - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:14:55
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100d317e
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a41
PID: FM 2.02
DW> 1). To show people like you how arrogant your ways are.
jw> You are correct, from a certain viewpoint. Part of the Christian faith
jw> is the belief that our faith is the only one that's right. That in
jw> itself appears arrogant to an outside observer, but is integral to our
jw> faith.
And another major aspect of that superstition is to include the unaffected
in
with the believers. That, too, should not be overlooked as it is the major
ca
use of tyrannies enacted against the unaffected.
~*~ Sorry but your arguement that lightbulbs disprove
Christianity does not quite convince me. - Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:17:03
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100d317f
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a43
PID: FM 2.02
#include Jason Rosendale
JR> The nerve of those bastards, criticizing inquisitions,
JR> crusades, etc..
jw> Perhaps you are confusing Christianity with the catholic church?
Will you support the contention that Catholics are not Christians?
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:20:42
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100d3180
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
PID: FM 2.02
jw> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates
jw> with us Christians rather than some other religious group?
Wiccans and Pagans do not attempt to include the unaffected into their belief
systems whereas Christians are compelled to. Also, Wicca and Pagani have
yet
to launch crusades and inquisistion the innocent for their ideologies.
Also,
Wicca and Pagani are life-affirming religions whereas Christianity and Islam
e
mbrases death.
jw> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith
jw> more than intellect and this hacks you off.
That's entirely acceptable. Beliefs are fine even though groundless and
there
demands a certain level of a _lack_ of critical thought. When the believer,
however, attempts to drag the unaffected into his or her beliefs, the individu
al is disemboweled for it.
jw> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a possibility)
No, there is zero possibility that the Christian pantheon exists.
~*~ If Jesus were born today, He'd surely refuse to become a Christian
- Ken
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Wiretap
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:34:58
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100d89f5
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d48cc17
PID: FM 2.02
> drwxr-xr-x 3 dell spies 512 Jul 1 23:59 Rituals
I'll give this one a directory and then a type from here.
THANTS!
~*~ At which point would you like me to start over? - Dave Schultz
Oh, when the doctor first spanked your ass would be a good place. - S.R.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Political Witchcraft continues...
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:49:00
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 100dcc5b
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d4a084d
PID: FM 2.02
> The New Democratic Party (NDP) of the Western Canadian province
> has stripped Mr. Wagar of his candidacy, and he is now suing the
> party for what he calls "religious discrimination".
Neat !
~*~ You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners - jonny vee
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Stuart Lumgair
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 30 Jan 94 03:24:36
--------
EID:a2ff 1c3e1b00
MSGID: 1:134/32.666 263485d9
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e6b6c8
On (27 Jan 94) Jerry Faust wrote to Stuart Lumgair...
JF> You commented:
JF>
JF> SL> I think he tried spreading a different kind of love all over
JF> SL> the rocks, if you would please continue on to Psalm 137.
JF>
JF> verse 1). God never condones the murder or torture of any infant.
In
JF> context, these words may have been the gut feelings of the writer in
JF> response
JF> to a horrible circumstance. Kind of like saying "I'm gonna kill that
JF> guy"
JF> when someone's car almost hits you. You almost definitely won't kill
JF> him;
JF> your words were not intended to be a proclomation of literal harm.
You can play your games with interpretation, but it says what
it says, not what you would like it to say.
... Psalm 137:9 Fun for the whole family.
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: Point of the Beast (1:134/32.666)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 29 Jan 94 05:16:00
--------
EID:c650 1c3d2a00
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e852fd0
REPLY: 1:350/401 86322DCD
PID: FM 2.02
> JV> Who the fuck was REH?
> I Conan tell you a lie. Just broke me up, the Mithra of
> it all. Just hang around, and we'll drop some Croms for
> you to follow.
> Well, seeya Sonja
Oh. Howard I supposed to know that? It's not like he's be one of my favorit
e authors. Now if you went RAH! I'd have known immediately (he's no stranger
to me) And it wouldn't take an Illuminatus! to recognize RAW materials,
eithe
r. REH just wasn't linked to my train of thought.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: HalfLife -mail only- 510-886-6180 20:00-11:00 PST (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: The Meaning of Life (Part 6)
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:20:00
--------
EID:1220 1c3d9a80
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0e9342ce
PID: FM 2.02
> jonny vee,who unwinds by reading books on evolution, said toMarty
> Leipzig:
> (Didja get da stuff yet?)
The floppies of "scripture"? Not yet, amigo. They have a "hire the handicapp
ed" policy at the US Snail in these parts. Some days the delivery critter
doe
sn't even try to get past the concertina wire. But it should get here eventua
lly, unless it looked like it might contain something valuable.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: HalfLife -mail only- 510-886-6180 20:00-11:00 PST (1:215/606)
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:47:28
--------
EID:f91c 1c3d65e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 851bfda5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b9439b9
On (23 Jan 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Joshua Lee...
FR> #include Charlie J. Ray
FR>
FR> CJR> Confused? It is the JW's who believe in the
FR> CJR> 144,000 who make it to heaven.
FR>
FR> jl> It's right there in Revelations somewhere, not that I know
FR> jl> anything more about interpreting it than a "'s
FR> jl> Witness". ;-)
FR>
FR> I've always wondered about what might motivate this particular belief
FR> -- to put a cap on the total number that are allowed to be "saved."
FR> Yes, it may be written dogma yet the motivating for having written it
FR> remains unclear.
I believe the account is in Rev. 20. It states that the narrator looks
into Heaven and sees 12,000 from the tribe of ___ and 12,000 from the
tribe of --- etc., naming each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel as it
continues. Since the JW's regard Revelations as a book of prophesy,
it "logically" follows that what the narrator was seeing was the future
population of Heaven. The trouble with the conclusion is that not
everybody agrees that Revelations is entirely a book of prophesy or in
what the meaning of the book as a whole is. Also, even among those who
agree that it is a book of prophesy, they don't all agree that the
narrator was seeing the total that would ever achieve that
lofty goal of dwelling in Heaven; it might have possibly just been
what the prophet saw on that particular peek into Heaven. The other
possibility (without denying the conclusion that Revelations is solely
a book of prophesy) is that 12,000 isn't to be taken all that
literally, but is rather just the biblical way of sayine "a whole
bunch."
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Passages
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:39:47
--------
EID:521c 1c3d74e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 94521fbc
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d44900a
On (24 Jan 94) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Patrick Humphrey...
JC> PH> because we both know we found the right mate this time.
JC>
JC> I'm glad you have that confidence, but I hope it is not because
JC> you think 3« years is long enough to prove something.
Perhaps 30 years is long enough to justify a bit of confidence that
"heathen" marriages can be forever. . . .
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Discussion
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:55:33
--------
EID:e578 1c3d76e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 f0fd6b73
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d4591aa
On (24 Jan 94) Larry Sites wrote to Mike Staab...
LS> MS>Jesus came as was the sacrifice to complete the cycle of justice.
LS> MS>He, through His sacrifice opened the means by which man and God
LS> MS>may be reconciled.
LS>
LS> Bunk! Jesus taught simply that God forgives us if we forgive others.
LS> No perfect human lambs needed.
Close, but no cigar. Jesus taught that God forgives us TO THE EXTENT
that we forgive others. He also taught that whatever yardstick we use
to measure the actions of others, that same yardstick will be used by
him on us.
That is one of the primary reasons why there is zero chance that I
would ever become a Christian. I've seen too many of them interpret
the second injunction as meaning "I don't commit homosexual acts, so I
can judge homosexuals to my heart's content." Of course, they don't
put it in those words, but rather talk about loving the sinner and
hating the sin and the like, but the tone is certainly there and plain
to see: they are judging the homosexual, which I refuse to do (among a
whole lot of other groups that I absolutely refuse to judge).
As for the first injunction above, I've seen far too many Christians
who are excellent at forgiving themselves, but quick to bang away at
other people's heads about the scriptures THEY have disobeyed
(according to the judger's interpretation of those scriptures, of
course), and I want no part of that action, either. I don't claim to
be perfect, nor do I claim that I have perfect insight into right and
wrong. Therefore, I am not in a position to determine whether others
are doing right or not. Insofar as they are doing no harm to others,
it is none of my business whether they are "sinning" or not. Sin is a
personal matter and is best left to the individual to decide.
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Charlie J. Ray
Sub: Adam...
Date: 29 Jan 94 15:04:33
--------
EID:f010 1c3d7880
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 0499cd6d
REPLY: 1:2370/14 1008f89a
On (26 Jan 94) Charlie J. Ray wrote to DEREK CLAYTON...
CJ> Show me the bones of Jesus in the grave and I will be satisfied that
CJ> He did not rise from the dead. Show me credible historical accounts
CJ> by Greek, Roman, or Jewish historians that describe how the resurrec-
CJ> tion was faked. That should be easy for you.
I can show you a great deal of written "proof" that Jesus was not
crucified. Read Barbara Theiring's "Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls,"
then get back to me on this. She offers a very well documented account
of the events surrounding his life, trial, hanging on the cross,
removal from the cross while still alive, and the remainder of his
life. Every single word of her account is obtained by writings that
were CONTEMPORARY to the life of Jesus, rather than to writings that
were done after his supposed death, as is the case with the biblical
account.
When you finish reading the book, maybe we can talk.
CJ>
CJ> Charlie Fidonet @1:2370/14
CJ>
CJ> ---
CJ> * WaveRdr 1.01 [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
CJ>
CJ> VQWK 6.20 [Rev G - 01/23/94]
CJ>
CJ> --- VFIDO 6.10.05
CJ> * Origin: Playland II (1:2370/14)
CJ>
--- PPoint 1.78
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Playing by the rules....
Date: 29 Jan 94 15:10:22
--------
EID:d573 1c3d7940
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 bdac6a48
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d45a167
On (25 Jan 94) Richard Thorneycroft wrote to Hector Plasmic...
RT> Its Hector! Interrupting again, what a joy. What vile twisted insults
RT> have you crafted today, ah just the usual _madness_ crap, boring.
RT>
RT> I DEMAND EVIDENCE....
RT>
RT> RT>Yes, Martin, my personal testimony
RT>
RT> HP> Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lies, hallucination
RT> or
RT> HP> madness, often even to (or particularly to) the one doing the
RT> HP> testifying.
RT> When the personal testimony is corroborated and is similar to millions
RT> of other testimonies and takes place over 1900 years that constitutes
RT> legitimate evidence. You lose, gotta do better than that.
RT> (how about cheat, change the definition?)
Maybe you would like to hear my life-changing testimony before deciding
whether corroborated testimony is evidence or not. . . .
When I was in my early 20's, I was a streetwalker. I met a man in a
skid road bar who was a wino. We "hit it off" and ended up getting
married. We've been married for 30 years now. He hasn't had a drink
in 26 years. I haven't turned a trick since before we got married.
And we are both atheists. WE DID IT ON OUR OWN. EVERY BIT OF IT. NO
GODS, NO FAITH, NO PRAYERS, NO GROVELING. We simply loved and trusted
each other, and worked things out to our mutual benefit. We have never
cheated on each other, never been separated because of lack of ability
to work things out, and never resorted to petitioning dieties of any
kind.
There's MY testimony, and it is just as valid as yours, and just as
easily corroborated.
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:13:30
--------
EID:80e3 1c3d91a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 e368ba68
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e524d4
On (26 Jan 94) Jerry Faust wrote to Don Martin...
JF> Kp5Rwww¿s{û½znever
JF> condones violence against any infants. °B/
You could fool me. What about his own personal destruction of Sodom
and Gomorrah? What about the times he told the Jews to go kill all the
men and married women in certain places, take all the virgins captive,
and make slaves of them and all the male children? Sounds like
violence to infants to me, when you kill their mothers and fathers,
rape their older sisters, and make salves of them.
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.3)
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--------
From: Peter Vanderkam
To: Larry Sites & M Burge.
Sub: Sequence of Gospels
Date: 29 Jan 94 23:46:11
--------
EID:8d21 1c3dbdc0
MSGID: 1:229/510@FIDONET.ORG 1f012e3a
Hello Larry,
On 01-24-94 13:33 you said to Marilyn Burge...
MB> 1. What order is "in sequence" in your estimation? and
LS> John last of the 4. .....
Correct! The choronolical order of the NT books is: Some of Paul's
letters were first (Appr 51 AD), followed by Mark (Appr 60 AD),
followed by Matthew and Luke (Appr 75-85 AD), followed by John which
is commonly agreed to come from around 100 Ad.
As you can see, from the four Gospels Mark is *generally* accepted to
be first, although *some* scholars argue for Matthew. With regards to
the authors, the scholars are arguing who they were. Again, in general
it is accepted that *none* were actual disciples of Jesus. But again,
there are those who argue that possibly Matthew, and maybe even John
were contemporaries of Jesus. (see my series on "Who wrote the Bible?")
MB> 2. Where do Q and Thomas fit into this order?
LS> Q as I understand it is the lost predecessor to Matt/Mark. In that
LS> respect, it should be used to identify the thelogical evolution/slant
LS> of Matt/Mark......
Q stands for the German word Quelle which means Source. As was mentioned
above here by LS, tradition has it that it was one of the main sources
on which the three synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are based.
LS> Thomas is an odd one, all that stuff about making female
LS> male and 2 into one. I just wish I had a way of determining what the
LS> meaning was to the writer/reader back then.
Thomas was discarded for the longest time, but has recently re-surfaced
and is getting more and more attention from the Biblcal scholars. It
contains "Sayings by Jesus", and is highly Gnostic in outlook. This
means that it was rather closely connected to the mystery religions of
that time.
Hope this has been helpful. Ciao and TTYL
Shalom,
Peter.
... Facts, though interesting, are in my opinion irrelevant...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff238/x]
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--------
From: Stuart Lumgair
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Adam...
Date: 29 Jan 94 04:02:39
--------
EID:e98f 1c3d2040
MSGID: 1:134/32.666 54cbe786
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d8b0e54
On (27 Jan 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Ron Ballew...
FR> First Steve makes the prediction below:
FR>
FR> SQ> You won't last long, but it'll be great to compile
FR> SQ> a list of your funnies while you're here. :)
FR>
FR> And then you say this:
FR>
FR> rb> If your only objective is to demean the Bible and bash
FR> rb> Christians then you have willingly joined the legion
FR> rb> of Satans's angels.
FR>
FR> Neat! That goes into the blue file.
Actually, I seem to remember a motorcycle gang by this name ...
perhaps that is the group he feels you will join. Just one mans
stupid opinion, of course
... I keep all my .BAT files in C:\BELFRY\
--- PPoint 1.78
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Sunjester
Sub: Steve'S Pr For Your R
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:51:43
--------
EID:4473 1c3d5660
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4aa80b
Hi Sunjester...
On 26 Jan 94 16:27:06, Sunjester penned the following to John Musselwhite
In reference to Steve'S Pr For Your R
JM> Who is sleeping with whom is irrelevant. If a male ejaculates
JM> for any reason other than procreation (technically) it's
JM> against the "Law". All else is commentary, to borrow a phrase
JM> from Hillel...
Su> So female homosexuality is OK?
Apparently... I don't see anything against it.
Su> I hope from this "Law" that you never masturbate.
Why should it affect me... I'm not Jewish or Christian if you think
it applies to them too.
John
... Polygamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is often the same.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 29 Jan 94 10:57:35
--------
EID:1d32 1c3d5720
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4aa80c
Hi Steve...
On 26 Jan 94 17:38:00, Steve Quarrella penned the following to Fredric
Rice
In reference to Well folks....
SQ> --- xMail 1.00
SQ> ! Origin: Valencia Fish Market (1:124/9005)
You sent a bunch of empty messages, Steve... While this echo has
lots of them, I don't think this is deliberate! B-})
John
... Why be difficult when, with a little work, you can be impossible!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: ACT OF GOD
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:10:45
--------
EID:3eed 1c3d9140
> PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
> MSGID: 1:124/9005 d425fe54
> TID: xMail 1.00 noreg
> EID: 7a54 c3c96722
> --- xMail 1.00
> * Origin: Valencia Fish Market (1:124/9005)
> SEEN-BY: 209/209 270/101 374/1 12 14 69 98 396/1 3615/50 51
> PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 3615/50 374/1 98 14
this was your entire msg. i suggest you use another tosser. you've been
leavin
g these blank msgs in several Echos for a couple days now.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2104/001027
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--------
From: Larry Brewer
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: "antichrist"
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:27:00
--------
EID:73e1 1c3e8360
MSGID: 1:128/50 2D454876
In a message to John Pierce <01-29-94 22:28> Martin Goldberg wrote:
MG> JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
MG> Hail Satan, Johnny.
First, there is no such thing in Judaism as `Satan' that christians talk
abou
t {or a christian hell). Second, please be careful because people like
this
in the last 1900 years have murdered millions of Jews (I could fill this
echo
with atrocities that the Church did against the Jews). Your reply sounds
fu
nny... but given a chance people that express the above view wind up hurting
millions of innocent people (children).... I saw a picture yesterday of
a you
ng Jewish boy with a Nazi standing behind him with a machine gun.... I
will n
ever forget the terror on that childs face. Remember this person is serious.
Jesus was some savior....
Shalom
--- QuickBBS 2.76
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50)
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--------
From: Brian Vogel
To: Kevin Green
Sub: swoup.exe file
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:25:00
--------
EID:2376 1c3d9b20
PID: RA 2.01 274
MSGID: 1:280/25 52e9a9f4
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7615
Kevin,
Here's that swoup.c file! This is the compiled version.
Brian
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Brian Vogel
To: Kevin Green
Sub: swoup.exe file
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:26:00
--------
EID:2376 1c3d9b40
PID: RA 2.01 274
MSGID: 1:280/25 52e9aa40
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7615
Kevin,
Here's that swoup.c file, it has been compiled.
Brian
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Brian Vogel
To: Kevin Green
Sub: file
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:27:00
--------
EID:3e9b 1c3d9b60
PID: RA 2.01 274
MSGID: 1:280/25 52e9aa82
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7615
;;; Setup Log File Opened 11/20/93 03:59:33
User chose as destination directory: 'c:\afterdrk'
May have had to create the directory: c:\afterdrk
;; CopyFilesInCopyList
[24] Overwriting file: 'C:\WINDOWS\AD-DOS.COM'
[23] Using Straight copy of file: 'A:\AD-DOS.COM', to: 'C:\WINDOWS\AD-DOS.COM
'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'win.ini', section: 'Windows',
ke
y: 'load', value: 'printman.exe c:\saver\intermis c:\afterdrk\ad.exe c:\after
drk\adinit.exe '
[23] Using Straight copy of file: 'c:\autoexec.bat', to: 'c:\autoexec.adk'
[23] Using Straight copy of file: 'c:\autoexec.bat', to: 'c:\autoexec.adk'
[23] Using Straight copy of file: 'c:\windows\system.ini', to: 'c:\windows\sy
stem.adk'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'Path', value: 'c:\afterdrk'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'GlobeFile', value: 'c:\afterdrk\bitmaps\earth.bmp'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'Sounder', key: 'SoundPath', value: 'c:\afterdrk\sounds'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'SlideShowDir', value: 'c:\afterdrk\bitmaps'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'AD', value: '2.0c'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'LogoFile', value: 'c:\afterdrk\bitmaps\adlogo.bmp'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'ModuleFile', value: 'TOASTERS.AD'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'Module', value: 'Flying Toasters'
[55] Creating Ini Key (With Value) - file: 'c:\windows\AD_PREFS.INI', section
: 'After Dark', key: 'LogoFile', value: 'c:\afterdrk\bitmaps\adlogo.bmp'
[71] Creating ProgMan group: 'After Dark', path: ''
[73] Creating ProgMan item - group: 'After Dark', item: 'After Dark',
comman
d: 'c:\afterdrk\ad.exe'
[71] Creating ProgMan group: 'After Dark', path: ''
;;; Setup Log File Closed 11/20/93 04:00:52
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Brian Vogel
To: Brian Vogel
Sub: swoup.exe file
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:29:00
--------
EID:770c 1c3d9ba0
PID: RA 2.01 274
MSGID: 1:280/25 52e9aaf4
REPLY: 1:280/25 52e9aa40
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7615
dssdasdasdasdadfs
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Judas failed miserably
Date: 29 Jan 94 19:17:48
--------
EID:27f5 1c3d9a20
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 0aab3adb
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0d0cae16
On (26 Jan 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Mike Staab...
FR> As was predicted. Faced with a clear-cut contradiction of
FR> two
FR> differing accounts of a myth, the must-believer will concoct an
FR> interpretation
FR> to salvage an otherwise unworkable faith in same myth. The
FR> predictions were made, the stimulas supplied, and the rat let loose
in
FR> the maze. The results of the test were exactly as predicted.
There are some things about the Xian viewpoint on this one that I have
a hard time reconciling with reality. If you just look at their
explanation for the seeming contradiction regarding death method, it
makes no sense. If I can picture their explanation, it requires Judas
to climb out on a limb that overhangs a cliff, tie a rope around the
limb, then tie the other end around his neck, then jump. Upon jumping,
he discovers the hard way that the rope was not very sturdy, it breaks,
and he tumbles down the cliff.
First, it was pretty thoughtless of him to not check his equipment
prior to committing the act.
Second, it is perhaps the only recorded instance of a person, intent on
hanging himself, picking a limb that overhangs a cliff and having to
climb the tree to accomplish the act.
And on top of that, we still have no understanding of how he could have
been the one to purchase Potter's Field at the same time the priests in
the Temple were using the same money to purchase Potter's Field. The
apologists seem to be willing to overlook THAT glitch altogether.
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: Chuck Dubman
To: David Strickland
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:08:36
--------
EID:1e62 1c3e8900
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d4c21d4
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d49c306
DS> Unless it was been put up within the last few years, or
DS> I've not been paying
DS> attention as we entered the park, I haven't seen any creationist museum.
Some magazine I have lying around said something to that effect. I'll check.
Can't remember if it was in Smithsonian, Natural History, or Hustler, though.
DS> !*! I don't believe in god because I don't believe in Mother Goose.
DS> - Clarence Darrow
"While surely there is a kindlier and gentler man than Mr. Debbs, I have
yet t
o meet him." -- Clarence Darrow in defense of jailed Socialist candidate
for
the U.S. Presidency, Eugene Debbs. Believed by W. Safire to be the original
s
ource of the George Bush slogan, "Kinder and Gentler Nation."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
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--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Bible Disproves Monotheism?
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:13:34
--------
EID:7f42 1c3e89a0
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d4c22fe
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d4aa927
DC> G'day Chuck:
DC> In a msg of , Chuck Dubman writes to All:
CD> Remember what the Big G said when he was told Adam
CD> and his main squeeze ate
CD> of the Tree of Knowledge? Something along the
CD> lines of, "They have become
CD> as one of the GODS. They have become one of US." Note carefully the
DC> There's similar babble at the tower of babel.
I'll ask next time I go there for bagels. Hope they don't keep it loxed.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
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--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: What's in "Bob's" Pipe?
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:15:00
--------
EID:44f9 1c3e89e0
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d4c2354
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3b03478f
CD> What IS that stuff he smokes, anyway?
MG> Money.
Now we know the TRUE meaning of "frop" (as "he" calls that stuff "he" smokes).
So I guess "his" sales o' Slack keep "his" pipe full?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Outside the Wall (410)665-1855 (1:261/1093)
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--------
From: Dan Lafferty
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Adam...
Date: 28 Jan 94 07:29:02
--------
EID:6d87 1c3c3ba0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:141/1108 52e75c44
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 0c944378
SA> > Have you ever visited or even seen Pluto...Then how do you KNOW it
SA> > exists?
SA> Since you put it that way... ;-)
SA> Have you ever actually seen or heard from Jesus?
SA> Then how do you "know" that he exists?
I have already explained that I have FELT his desires on a few topics,
someth
ing all your denial can not change. How ever, I can not prove that to
you as
there is no PHYSICAL evidence for spiritual experience, until perhaps scienc
e advances to the abilitiy to make Dream Scape a reality . (ie being
able
to measure and record for yourself and/or others the activities in
the brain caused be experience or to actually "extract" memories for later
"e
xperience")
SA> All those biblical scriptures might just be a fabrication
SA> of the religious community for the sake of receiving money
SA> from loyal sheep, that they may benefit from their ignorant
SA> gullibility.
You would get farther if you kill the ad homonims.
SA> You do a very good job of debunking your own faith system,
SA> Dan.
SA> Remember to always apply the same qualification criteria
SA> to your own beliefs that you do to others.
I do. The clergy in MY church are not full time and are NOT payed. They
have
no reason to sugar coat or sensationalize the doctrine, indeed if they
did
they would be in for a reprimand and perhaps early removal. I say early
beca
use they are not in life long positions any way as the typical length of
serv
ice for a bishop being four years.
Dan
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Albertus Magnus
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Steve "Mr. Fun" Winter
Date: 26 Jan 94 01:22:33
--------
EID:1f85 1c3a0ac0
MSGID: 1:323/110 2d462316
PID: Telegard 2.7
You LIKED that cross-post of Winter's assertion about stopping at 3 gods,
eh?
I must say it gave me a good chuckle... moreover, I found myself somewhat
in a
greement with his rhetoric, altho not entirely. I suppose it's because I
harbo
r no great love of Catholicism myself.
.\lbertus .\.\agnus
---
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: fundies
Date: 30 Jan 94 14:09:00
--------
EID:63e7 1c3e7120
TEST THOSE CHRISTIANS:
A Non-believer's Guide For Testing The True Christian.
The Event
There I was busily working at my desk when the interruption occurred.
"Hi, are you Ammond?" "Yeah," I replied. "What can I do for you?" "I'm
Hezikah Brown, and I'd like a couple minutes of your time." Being the nice
guy that I am I agreed to a few minutes. It seems Hezikah is a Born Again
Christian with a mission from God. He told me how he believed that Jesus
was his personal Lord and Savior, how his life had been changed for the
better, how he spoke in tongues and that he heard I was a witch. "The
rumor in the office is that you're a witch." "It's true," I answered. "How
can that be," he retorted. "Don't you know that witches are going to
hell." And off we went...
The Question
So what is a non-believer to do today with all these seemingly dizzy
people claiming to be Christians. It seems you meet these people
everywhere. You just can't get away from them. They are in the office,
swinging through the restaurant, on your computer network, cruising the
beach and parading in that crowded john. Just when you get home for a
private, intimate interlude with your lover comes the event stopping knock,
knock of the True Christian. What the hell is a normal sane person to do?
Go crazy, scream, defecate nude on the floor while in full view of the True
Christian? No. We test them. As I presume that like me you are a
non-believer too we can have a little fun.
Jesus says "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly are ravening wolves." Matt 7:15
and "Then if any man shall say to you Lo, here is the Christ, or,
Here, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs and false
prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if
possible, even the very elect." Matt. 24:23-24
John says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits,
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into
the
world." 1st John 4:1
There are many different types of Christian you know. And they all claim
to be True Christians. How is the non-believer to know which is which?
After all we want the real thing, a True Christian, not a demon from hell
disguised as an angel of light. No Jim Bakkers or Jimmy Swaggarts will
do.
We want a real fool for Christ. How do we tell the True Christian from
the
disguised demon? The real fool from the money grabbers? We can do that
with a little help. And this help comes from a very unexpected source.
You see these Christian critters have a role model they follow. And they
can't deviate from the model too much and hope to get to the heavenly
entertainment park. Jesus, their role model has stated...
"Therefore by their fruits shall you know them. Not everyone who says to
me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to
me
in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name
cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess
to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." Matt
7:22-23
So you can see that not every person who claims to be Christian will make
it to that starry, wonder filled entertainment park they call heaven. True
Christians tell me that only 10 percent of those who claim to be True
Christians are Christians at all. There's just a little rivalry. It seems
they are all in competition with each other for that last 144,000
condos-in-paradise. Now God knows how much real estate He has and how much
it costs. Overpopulation being what it is today He has to oust some.
Otherwise garbage over runs the golden streets, airborne pollution covers
the crystal walls and the sewers back up. Yech!
As our volunteer testee saunters up visually apprise them. Do they look
serious? Are their clothes nice? Do they look like they own property?
Good. We're ready to start, but don't rush. We don't want the testee to
suspect our motives.
Much of the Christian religion is emotional. As the conversation starts
let the testee know just where you stand. You don't want to be duped.
You
want to talk to a true Christian. None other than a true Christian will
do.
Ask our testee if they are a Christian? Are they a True Christian? Do
they love Jesus? Is Jesus their Personal Lord and Savior? Yes? Good.
Ask them how much they love Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. Are they
Spirit filled? Do they display any of the fruits, love, joy, peace,
happiness, etc. of the Spirit as described in Gal. 5:22-23?
Next we have to verify that they believe in the Bible. Without this we
won't have any fun. Ask our volunteer if they believe in the Bible. Do
they believe that it is the Word of God? Is it infallible? Is the Bible
as appropriate for today as it was two thousand years ago? If the answer
is yes, even if not infallible, fun is to be had in short order.
The Money Test
Here's how we start... Our trick is to confront the testee with moral
absolutes and performance tests. Here is the first performance test that
we can enjoy.
"Give to everyone that asketh thee; and from him that taketh away thy
goods ask not again." Luke 6:30
"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn
not thou away." Matt. 5:42
Luke 6:35 sums it all up...
"But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and
your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for
he
is kind toward the unthankful and evil."
True Christians are so fond of moral absolutes that I think we should give
them every opportunity to experience those absolutes as real, upfront and
personal events. In your next testing session, when you hear the True
Christian extolling the Rock of Moral Absolutes upon which they stand, go
for the cash. It has a nice sobering effect that should in the long run
benefit the True Christian.
Ask for their money, all of it. Just ask for their wallet. Have them
show it to you. Any money inside? Good. Ask for it. You don't want
their credit cards. That would be a crime. If there's no money, ask for
an article of clothing. Coats and cloaks are good. How about car keys?
Do they have a big cross with them? Ask for it.
When they refuse have them reread the previous verses, then ask again.
Should they still refuse call them a fraud, for that's exactly what they
are. Just like Jesus send them away into darkness. They aren't a True
Christian.
Now should they give you everything in their wallet, the cloak on their
back and the cross too, we get to have more fun...
The Swill Test
Next we proceed with more subjective questions. One of their obsessive
traits is to compare their past performance with the actions of those in
the Bible. How is their walk with their Lord? Do they follow Jesus
closely? Do they want to follow more closely? Yes? Good. Now we start
with the serious tests.
In Matthew 10:18 Jesus sends out his True Disciples with the commandments
to "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out devils."
Take a skeptical attitude about their status as a True Christian. Again
let them know that you want only the real thing. No substitutes will be
allowed.
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall
cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up
serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them;
they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark
16:17-18
On this you gotta' be a little careful not to let the cat out of the bag.
Ask your friend if they have cast out demons. Do they speak with tongues?
Have they laid their hands on sick persons who were healed?
If so take a bottle from storage prepared especially for the test. It
should be filled with (non)toxic, pukey looking stuff that smells to high
heaven. Urine and excrement should do. Cap the bottle tightly while in
storage. And for heavens sake wrap it in something to hide the mess from
sight. In the Bible read Mark 16:17-18 which says that True Christians
can
pick up serpents and drink harmful things without suffering. Ask our
unsuspecting testee to chug the whole bottle. If they object saying "thou
shalt not test God" respond by saying that you are testing them, not God.
God is not around to be tested anyway. If they don't chug-the-jug you can
safely assume they are not a True Christian, only a fraud. Send them away.
A note of warning... Be sure to inform the True Christian the drink is
toxic. Let them pick up the bottle for themselves. If they drink the
potion they take the test of their own free will.
Now some might protest that the last part of Mark is a 'late addition' not
found in the earlier texts. Perhaps they have confessed to you previously
that the Bible is the word of God and is infallible. What happened?
Didn't the believe the Bible? Tell them they aren't a True Christian; they
are frauds. Send them home with their tails between their legs.
Conclusion
As we can readily see it's not healthy to be a True Christian. A True
Christian is equivalent to being a Bibliolater--one who worships the Bible.
Now being a Christian is ok. But being a Bibliolater is a form of mental
illness. And it's great fun to let the Bibliolater know of their problem
when they interrupt your day.
I have about ten other performance tests but the aforementioned are the
most exciting. Please feel free to experiment with Jesus' moral absolutes
and performance tests. You may find some that are just a much fun as
these.
Copyright Dec. 1989. Ammond Shadowcraft
Permission is given to reproduce or retransmitt this article providing the
article is complete, and with the author's name and copyright notice fully
intact.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: John Bobbit Hates To Be Cut Off In Traffic! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: About Love...
Date: 30 Jan 94 14:22:00
--------
EID:5c91 1c3e72c0
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52eaa65c
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
JH> Moses?!
I meant No h...
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: About Love...
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:28:00
--------
EID:2d57 1c3e8380
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52eac418
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3b033ca2
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
I know the crusaders considered their actions "Christian" but consider the
st
ate of medieval Europe at the time. A civil religion claiming to be "Christi
an" gripped even the monarchs. The only translation of the Bible available
t
o Europeans was the Latin vulgate. Wycliffe's English translation was
comple
ted around 1380; other translations followed.
Perhaps it can be asserted that most parishoners during the era of the Crusad
es did not have access to the Bible in their own language... hence, they
were
n't able to study the Bible for themselves.
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Christianity
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:40:00
--------
EID:5887 1c3e8500
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52eac6b8
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0e88c80a
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
FR> Obviously as Christians are a very big part of the problem.
FR> When people can look at the Christian once-head of the KKK
FR> David Duke and attempt to get him elected to govern a state
FR> based upon the ideological platform of Christian hatred and
FR> intolerance, there is a very real problem which must be
FR> addressed by insiders. (An individual, I often add, who
FR> said that his Isis/Jesus mythos could not "return until the
FR> nigger is 'gone' from America.")
Ok, but can anyone prove that David Duke is a Christian? he KKK s's actions
a
re horrible. Their hatred for African Americans, Jews, and other groups
is t
otally contrary to Jesus' Christ and His teachings.
The man who caried Jesus' cross, Simon, was from North Africa.
An Ethiopian Eunuch believed in Christ in the book of Acts.
Most of Paul's missionary activity doccumented in the Bible wasn't even
in Eu
rope; it was concentrated in Asia Minor.
Most of the very early Christians were Jews, not caucasians.
God loves every individual of every race; racial hatred is wrong.
---
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Joe Siegler
Sub: Judgment
Date: 29 Jan 94 20:40:00
--------
EID:1087 04774db0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4bae99
-=> Quoting Joe Siegler to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JC> Well, Joe, it sounds to me like you are judging me.
JS> I am not. I'm making an observation based on your actions. I am not
JS> judging you, only commenting on what you do.
Oh, I see. That must be in one of the non-canonical gospels, where Jesus
said, don't judge, but it's okay to make negative observations and snide
comments.
JS> ourselves. What do *YOU* feel? While I take bible verse
JS> importantly, I also believe in the power of independant thought. What
JS> do you think?
I think people who can't spell well tend not to think well.
What do I think? I think this place is a cesspool where evangelical
atheists vie with each other to see how cool they can be by insulting, flaming
,
and ridiculing people of faith. That makes me feel very sad, my brother,
and
I
think it should make you feel sad, too.
I think we Christians are too eager to be liked by secular people, so
instead of defending brothers and sisters in Christ when they are being
persecuted, we laugh with them. Sort of like Peter denying Christ three
times
before the cock crowed.
What is it that you think?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: William Stone
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 11:23:06
--------
EID:e168 1c3e5ae0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d4bdeea
JM> I love you too, Marty
Johnny,
I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are influenced by r
eprobate minds. They know nothing of the giving love of Jesus as he hanged
on
the cross, nor do they understand the deep peace and satisfaction from the
sub
stitution of faith for their so-called "scientific proof".
I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture when we a
re caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them and their abominations.
M
ay they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain as the burning
fires
of hell consume their flesh. I only wish I could be there to light the oven,
to be honest.
Yours in Christ,
William Stone
Distributor -PRIME echos
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: James Conwell
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Ron is a Christian just like you are
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:43:09
--------
EID:52fa 1c3e5560
MSGID: 1:106/7512 1782e764
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3ae7b35b
MG> Do you, Jmaes Conlon, believe that Mary's gave birth to a son after
MG> never having participated in heterosexual relations?
MG>
MG> If so, do you not believe that the bible in telling us that the birth
MG> was a virgin birth, expected us to believe that she had never had sex
MG> with a man?
I neither believe nor disbelieve.
I wasn't there so how in the WORLD would I know?
Were you alive around 35 BC? Were you there? How the heck could I believe
th
at Mary had sex or did not have sex or blah blah blah when I wasn't there?
I wouldn't even believe you if you told me YOU had sex last night.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Qur'an
Date: 30 Jan 94 19:03:37
--------
EID:246e 1c3e9860
SB> I saw a documentry on Malcolm X a couple of days ago and I noticed that
SB> the Nation of Islam is quite a bit different than the
SB> Islam I know of. Do
SB> you know anything about the origins of the Nation of Islam
SB> and how exactly it differs in doctrine?
Boy Howdy!
Yeah, the two differ greatly and have about as much in common with
each other as cross-burnings have in common with Jesus Christ.
I'm still looking for a good critical history of the Nation of Islam,
but haven't found one yet.
A few of the many points unique to the 'Nation':
God drives a flying saucer, known as The Big Wheel. One of these days
he'll land the thing and kick white butt.
A super-civilization existed on the african continent. It possesed not
only the ability of flight and space travel, but also the ability to
re-arange the landscape by moving mountains around.
The above civilization was destroyed by the "mad scientist" Yacub, who
through controlled breeding created the non-black races.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Jesus And Paul
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:11:27
--------
EID:6044 1c3f1160
JH> There is nothing in the sayings of Jesus that supports Paul's JH>
so
mewhat backward attidude towards women.
SB> Jesus said nothing that contradicted Pauls statement about women. As
for
SB> being backward, it was not backward when it was written. These are
not
SB> contradictions. They are examples of one saying something
SB> about a certain
SB> subject and the other not saying anything. Do you have any real
SB> contradictions?
Who said anything about contradictions? That's yet another topic in
itself. Try to stick with the topic that you yourself rasied.
Paul dropped several of Jesus's major themes, and then added a
few of his own. Two philosophies do not have to be diametrical
opposites to be two distinctly different philosophies.
Is there anything anywhere in the sayings of Jesus that even HINTS at
Paul's statement that "it is good for a man not to touch a woman" ?
Now, if you'd like to talk contradictions, try these two verses from
Proverbs:
26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also
be like unto him.
And in the VERY NEXT VERSE we get:
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in
his own conceit.
Of course, I'm sure you don't see any conflict here either....
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Gospel Of John
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:45:00
--------
EID:6f65 1c3f15a0
JH> John's gospel differs so widely from the other three that the
JH> author was most likely totaly unaware of the existance
JH> of any other written account of Jesus's life.
SB> How is this so clear? I disagree with your statement that
SB> the author was totally unaware of other written accounts
SB> since it does cover some of the same accounts as the synoptics.
Let's look at the NUMBER ONE CENTRAL EVENT: Jesus's expiration on the
cross. If the Gospel authors agree on anything, it should be this.
MATTHEW: Darkness for three hours, an earthquake and the dead "saints"
got up out of their graves and walked around.
LUKE: Darkness for three hours and the temple veil torn in two (cause
unspecified).
MARK: Darkness for three hours and temple veil torn (again by an
unspecified cause).
*JOHN* : NOTHING UNUSUAL!
NO darkness.
NO earthquake.
NO torn up drapery.
NO dead people getting up to stroll around.
Jesus's death isn't even noticed until they come to
break his legs.
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Peter Vanderkam
Sub: Re: WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
Date: 31 Jan 94 03:14:20
--------
EID:0aec 1c3f19c0
PV> For instance, thanks to incredible historical and literary
PV> detective work, scholars of all stripes are now agreed that the
PV> first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) were not written
PV> by Moses, but are a composite of the writings of different
PV> authors who not only lived in different eras, but also lived in
PV> different parts of the country.
Not to mention the fact that the Pentateuch records the death of the
alleged author.
That was enough of tip off for me.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Peter Garner
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Expl
Date: 26 Jan 94 23:04:00
--------
EID:f918 1c3ab880
MSGID: 1:100/4 863887E2
SA>A rabbi never charges for circumcision...
SA>they only take tips.
By the same token, NEVER EVER eat calamari in a Jewish Deli!
Peter
þ WinQwk 2.0 #0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- WM v3.10/93-0100
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From: Gary Glunz
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: All Fundies-Waste of Time
Date: 28 Jan 94 18:12:00
--------
EID:0d69 1c3c9180
MSGID: 1:100/4 86381A65
JCJ> "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase
JCJ> knowledge increase sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18.
JM> Indeed... Ecclesiastes is quite correct in this. "Ignorance is
JM> bliss" as the saying goes.
And a prime example of the reason these myths were invented - as a
tool to keep the masses obediently in their place by the lords of
this world. At least it keeps them productive... ;-)
Isn't it amazing the way human beings eagerly pick up the chains
of slavery and put them on?
... Religious people believe you haven't lived until you die.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/93-0100
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From: Drew Webber
To: Jason Poggioli
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 28 Jan 94 14:08:09
--------
EID:75d6 1c3c7100
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:272/120.0 2d4976ef
-=> Quoting Jason Poggioli to Drew Webber <=-
JP> Sorry for the confusing, I was agreeing with your "That's nice" and
JP> then referring the rest of the letter to Johnny.
That's what I thought. No prob. :)
... FUNDAMENTALISM is never having to open your mind.
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Video Gaming Central * [914]374-6309 (1:272/120)
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--------
From: Drew Webber
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Re: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 28 Jan 94 17:09:19
--------
EID:6ba9 1c3c8920
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:272/120.0 2d49b4d3
-=> Quoting Rob Bamford to Quentin Fai <=-
RB> "I pledge alligence to the
RB> flag, of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which
RB> it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and justice
RB> for all." -- This is something to fight for!!! Rob
I don't fight for God.. hell, at the rate it's going, I wouldn't be
happy to fight for the USA!
... "Kiki's Delivery Service: Letter Bombs to Carl Macek 30% off"
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Video Gaming Central * [914]374-6309 (1:272/120)
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--------
From: Drew Webber
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: The All Knowing and the individual
Date: 28 Jan 94 18:08:20
--------
EID:7880 1c3c9100
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:272/120.0 2d49b4d4
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Drew Webber <=-
GJ>> God says: "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14)
DW> And from that one verse, I will start the "Universal Church of
DW> Popeye"!
SQ> -Do it-! Alan Jennings can tell you how. :)
Heh.. where can I contact him? Does he post here?
... UFO's are for real... the Air Force doesn't exist!
--- FMail 0.96â
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--------
From: Drew Webber
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: About Love...
Date: 28 Jan 94 18:19:21
--------
EID:6404 1c3c9260
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:272/120.0 2d49b4d5
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jerry Faust <=-
SQ> Please download GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system (214-412-8457) and we'll
SQ> go further.
There is an easier way to get this file across.. UUENCODE it. I learned
this little trick from the ANIME echo.. as long as it's under 100k. If
it's over 100k, it'd probably take up too many messages.. like 50.
And UUENCODING files is a sure fire way to piss off moderators.. :)
... God must have been drunk when he knocked up Mary.
--- FMail 0.96â
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--------
From: Joshua Lee
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Morality
Date: 25 Jan 94 04:08:10
--------
EID:0821 1c392100
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3ac48917
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d3f4602
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 20 19:25, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JL>> I have been doing alot of catching up once I got "hooked"
JL>> on exploring my tradition since I'd left previously...
JCJ> I'm glad to hear that. Sometimes I think
JCJ> Christianity would be better off if we still
JCJ> considered ourselves (and were considered) a Jewish sect!
Actually, I'm of the opinion that seperation is probably best. Alot of conflic
t and denigration of both religions has resulted in considering one branch
the
heretical one, and the other the "true" one. It is clear that Christianity
is
no longer Judiasm, per-se, though it is also clear that the two have alot
in
common.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 25 Jan 94 04:13:12
--------
EID:fa52 1c3921a0
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3ac49f48
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3a99945a
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 21 21:55, Martin Goldberg of 1:124/4115.221 wrote:
JL>> programming, etc. Luckily, our religion doesn't demand the
JL>> elimination of the intellect. If it did, I'd certainly
JL>> still be an agnostic...
MG> REligion itself is antiintellectual. to believe
MG> in its entirety means giving up many fastly held
MG> beliefs bases on evidence of natural law.
It is OK to be sceptical. There is a difference between emmunah, which means
l
oyalty or trust, and "faith."
BTW, what do you think of the Reconstructionist movement? After all, it's
been
described by Kaplan as "Judiasm without supernaturalism".
JL>> to do the right thing from now on. "Do not be like
JL>> servants who work for the sake of a reward.", as it says
MG> I can't believe in an entity that there is no basis for.
There is a difference between believing in an entity, and believing in God.
Go
d is not an entity, that would be like saying he is a giant man. This in
Judai
sm has been considered a form of idolatry at least since Maimonides in the
11t
h century C.E. Kaplan defined God as "the force which makes for salvation".
Bu
ber described God as an "Ich-du" relationship.
Perhaps you haven't had an education in the history of Jewish thought. Most
of
these arguements are really against naive idolatry, rather than against
the J
udaism of our rabbis and sages.
JL>> Not that I think this will convince you to stop being an
JL>> atheist.
MG> Not likely, but I will have a salami sandwich on a bagel.
You still take the holey sacrement?
JBL
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--------
From: Joshua Lee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Messiah
Date: 25 Jan 94 04:20:26
--------
EID:8138 1c392280
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3ac4c6bf
REPLY: 1:247/133 0b90fdd1
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 16 17:12, Steve Bedard of 1:247/133 wrote:
JL>> SB> chapters 21 and 22 and tell me if that is more in line
JL>> SB> with the redemption you would expect.
SB>
JL>>No, that's more apocalyptic than what we believe. Also we
JL>>don't believe in eternal hell, nor in a heaven "up in the clouds".
JL>>Jews tend to be only "this worldly" in our vision of redemption,
JL>> "swords into plowshares", in the world to come. You have different
JL>>beliefs about the meaning of our prophets.
SB> You do believe in an afterlife don't you?
I agree with the opinion of our sages on this, but it is not a fixed belief
in
Judaism. Since Judaism does not have an eternal hell, and heaven is not
based
on religion or even on the (higher) level of observence required to be a
good
Jew or a pious gentile, it has never been focused on it's nature.
As a consequence a variety of beliefs and the lack of said beliefs have
been a
ccepted. For example, in Jesus's time, the Temple Priesthood (the Saaducees)
d
id not believe in afterlife. The Perushim ("Pharasees") and their successors
b
elieved in the bodily ressurection described in the prophets pertained to
the
afterlife. Today, the Reform and Reconstructionist movements also (in general)
do not believe in an aftelife, other than the blessing of memory.
Hasids, for another example, believe in reincarnation, followed by absorbtion.
Maimonides believed in the immortality of the soul, then the world to come,
f
ollowed by absorbtion into the absolute. This was often described as being
mor
e Greek, which is the opinion of the "immortal soul", embraced by Christianity
.
How to be a good Jew, and a good man, is the overall focus of Judaism, not
the
afterlife. Judaism is a religion of sanctification of the world, and non-Jews
are welcome to participate or not in this sanctification outside of the
7 com
mandments that pertain to them, as they wish.
JL>>I'm supprised to see that you're still here. :-)
SB> So am I sometimes.
I had debated about re-linking this echo when I returned to contact with
FidoN
et, knowing I would risk some flames from both sides. For the most part,
most
people have accepted that I am more religiously Jewish now instead of agnostic
.
JL>>only coming from the Christian camp, specifically, you. ;-)
SB>
JL>>How would you explain this phenomenon? 8-)
SB> I think they are waiting for you to make a supernatural claim.
"I believe that God exists." I've said this several times here, no big deal.
A
lso, there are several neo-Pagans and Buddhists here, who also encounter
littl
e or no hostility from the atheists, agnostics, and deists.
Also, this does not explain the hostility of a few Christians, since obviously
the fact that I am not an agnostic anymore would not upset them. Are Jews
on
a faster track to hell than agnostics or something? ;-)
SB> That is when they started attacking Moshe.
I missed those attacks.
SB> If you really want to be attacked, tell them you are
SB> the one who convinced me to come here.
Perhaps this echo will attack me, I doubt it. However, I suspect the gratitude
on PHIL would make up for any attacks engendered by your presence here.
;-)
Actually, several other people here have reccomended that echovangelists
come
here rather than post off-topic in another echo before. This practice is
encou
raged, in fact, it is the basic reason for the existance of this echo.
JBL
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--------
From: Joshua Lee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Comparative Religion
Date: 25 Jan 94 04:43:54
--------
EID:11ed 1c392560
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3ac4e72d
REPLY: 1:247/133 0b90fdd2
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 16 17:15, Steve Bedard of 1:247/133 wrote:
JL>>with "innocent" eyes. After you have seen widely differing
JL>>perspectives, you can understand exactly what your own
JL>>perspectives are.
SB> Believe it or not, reading to Qur'an has
SB> actually strengthed my faith and helped me to
SB> understand who Jesus is better.
It has interesting ideas about Moses, from a comparison, it has taught me
alot
about what things are different between Judaism and Islam.
Specifically, a matter of attitude. Unlike the Biblical Abraham and Moses,
the
patriarchs and Moses are subservient, and would never argue with the Lord,
un
like the Biblical ones. Islam means "surrender to God", which is a different
a
pproach than the usual Jewish approach to following God.
The Qur'an, in the Arabic, is also fairly well-written. It comes from an
Arabi
c literary tradition that encompasses the Arabian Knights.
Also, the stories bear resemblences to several of our Midrashes (Rabbinic
stor
ies and interpretations) concerning the Tanakh. (Old Testement.) Interestingly
enough, several of our Midrashes and the Qum'an were written during the
same
general period of time.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Judaism
Date: 25 Jan 94 04:50:22
--------
EID:09f1 1c392640
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3ac50023
REPLY: 1:247/133 0b90fdd3
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 16 17:21, Steve Bedard of 1:247/133 wrote:
JL>>things out of context to imply that Jews rape babies and the
SB> bad things. Even though the fact that some
SB> Rabbis argued for these things shows there are some sickos
They didn't argue "for" these things, this was a highly accademic debate
conce
rning what marriages are forbidden among the High Priest, who's office no
long
er even existed. It was in the middle of the tracate concerning Leverite
marri
ages, also a theoretical issue.
Also, I'd point out, like most of these debates, the technical question
concer
ned solely an interpretation of scripture, Numbers 31:18. It really could
be i
nterpreted either way.
Although this is a harsher than usual part of Torah, in the 20 folio sized
vol
umes of debate, this passage's application is also considered. This is because
we don't ignore, but chose to find out exactly what scripture means and
impli
es. The majority ("the Rabbis") interpretation presented was that, rather
than
Yochai's opinion, it meant *bondage* rather than marriage.
Other debates, the majority of Talmudic debates, concern much less controversi
al verses in the Torah.
For some reason, you erased all Biblical references when you posted your
exerp
ts, and the other side of the debates. It's no wonder you couldn't understand
what was going on if you read it like that!
Read it more carefully, in context, consult the various commentaries, and
if y
ou still can't understand it, ask a Rabbi or well-educated Jew. (I'm not
one,
BTW, I haven't even taken a single class on Talmud, much less training in
a Ye
shivah or accadamy.)
Also: I'd reccomend on starting with representative Halakhic problems to
intro
duce yourself to the nature of the Talmud, rather than starting with reprehens
ible Halakhic problems. ;-)
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Pluralism
Date: 26 Jan 94 22:52:36
--------
EID:a012 1c3ab680
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3adc189a
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d3f4604
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 20 19:49, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JCJ> I agree, Joshua. I am proud of this
JCJ> affirmation by my denomination:
[good affirmation deleted for space]
One thing I have been impressed with is the social responsibility your denomin
ation has exhibited in regards to issues dealing with various forms of discrim
ination and prejudice. :-)
I think Reinhold Neihbur was one who often said it that way, right? I'm
glad t
o see it specifically affirmed by a denomination.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Guess who's coming to din
Date: 26 Jan 94 23:24:14
--------
EID:de64 1c3abb00
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3adc7c67
REPLY: 1:206/2720 0b0d3ad8
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 22 13:35, Aaron Boyden of 1:206/2720 wrote:
>> year 2000 the second largest religion in Toronto will
>> be Islam. If that doesn't strike fear, I don't know
[...]
>> what I have written is not considered politically correct.
AB> Score one for political correctness. I guess
AB> it's about time that they got something right.
I've been told by another person on this echo, that since being Antisemitic
is
according to him "poltically incorrect", then by extention Antisemitism
is no
t neccesarily in reality incorrect. Antisemitism is apparantly now only
a "bra
ve stance" in favor of free speech and against totalitarianism, rather than
a
form of hatred. The same goes for other forms of bigotry....
Although both the "polticical correctness" and the "political incorrectness"
m
ovements are often equally totalitarian in rhetoric, the former group at
least
isn't in the habit of putting people in ovens.
AB> Islam is surely no more dangerous than
AB> Christianity. Given the choice, I'd rather
AB> abolish both, but if that can't be done, it
AB> hardly matters which one is on top.
At the time of the exile from Spain in 1492, the Jews of Spain that left
settl
ed in Islamic countries, because of the higher level of tolerence exhibited
at
that time under the Caliphate.
Of course, even before it's decline, countries in the Islamic empire had
outbr
eaks of persecution. None of them were nearly as bad, long-lasting, or widespr
ead as Western Europe's doings in that period, however.
JBL
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--------
From: Joshua Lee
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Evil
Date: 27 Jan 94 00:31:06
--------
EID:8970 1c3b03e0
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3add659f
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 80aabd1b
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 22 04:10, Marilyn Burge of 1:105/40.3 wrote:
MB> I really don't see them as sophmoric, and the
I agree, they are the *most* difficult questions. After all, Job, Abraham,
and
Moses, among many others, argue with God about his justice in the world.
This
has a long tradition. Many prominant Rabbis facing persecution have even
conv
ened Rabbinical courts, and found God guilty of violating his own laws!
Tradit
ional prayers, such as those of Rabbi Levi Yitzak of Beridechev, reflect
this
dilemma.
I tend to see it this way, rather than the other approach which is to say,
"th
is too is for the good". Except in maybe an extremly abstract sense, I don't
a
gree. I am forbidden to stand idly while my neighbor bleeds.
MB> In fact, In Isaiah, he even beat his chest, sang
MB> three choruses of "Macho, Macho, Man,"
Hmmm, I missed that part. Is that in the Broadway musical version? ;-)
MB> bragged about having done so.
God created "good, and all things", which is an allusion to this verse,
is eve
n in our Siddur. Jews don't have a dualistic belief system, which, for what
it
's worth, doesn't really make the problem of evil much different in it's
logic
al ramifications, and in fact excaberates the dilemma.
MB> Why did he create a BINARY universe? It wasn't necessary. HE
MB> drew the plans. He could have made a universe where evil
MB> didn't exist. And don't give me this crap about how we
He created the universe *imperfect* according to the traditional Jewish
belief
. Hence the prayer for the "restoration of the diminishment of the moon"
in th
e traditional prayer. Also Luria's "shattering of the vessels", etc.
The universe was created this way so that God would offer us an opportunity
to
become creators in our own right, fulfilling "the divine image", by perfectin
g the universe. Hence, the day of Shabbat, when God stopped his work, is
a day
of prayer, joy, and study, rather than a day of dread as other cultures
had i
t in ancient times.
MB> would be bovines without the choice between good and evil,
MB> because it doesn't wash. Every believer I've
God, according to some *Orthodox* Jewish biblical commentaries, meant the
"fru
it of the experiential knowledge of good and bad things" to be eaten.
Note the different name than the one you've probably read, this is a more
nuan
ced translation of the Hebrew text, rather then the one used in most other
Eng
lish translations, which has more Pauline and Lutheran interpreations implied
than in the original text.
(Most people don't realize they are actually reading a commentary or paraphras
e when they read almost any translation, rather than the so-called "literal
wo
rd of God". My translation here isn't "literal" either, whatever that is,
but
it picks up more of the nuances.
It also, FWIW, matches partially the NJPS translation conducted under Jewish
a
uspices and the _Anchor Bible_, the most prominent secular scholarly translati
on. These render it as "the knowledge of good and bad", rather than "good
and
evil" due to these considerations. John Musselwhite may be able to confirm
my
translation's veracity. :-) Also it meshes to some degree with Soforno's
comme
ntary printed in most Mikraot Gedolet, though I don't mean to imply any
Aristo
telian concepts here, unlike Maimonides.)
MB> place where sin won't exist. So if a place where sin
MB> won't exist relegates us to all the sentience of a cow,
MB> Heaven could hardly be a place where people
MB> aspired to go.
Our Rabbi's concept is that the world to come (as the prophets called it)
will
be actually alot like the present world, only perfected. Of course, we've
bee
n accused of being too this-wordly in our beliefs by Christians. Actually,
I t
end to argue that it is hard to be too this-worldly... :-)
MB> 2. He didn't care that it would
MB> cause us, who are allegedly his
MB> finest work, so much pain and sorrow.
An answer of the existentialist school, though it is not completely satisfying
, is that He feels pain and sorrow with us as well. This is part of what
is ca
lled by Heschel the "divine pathos".
MB> go with 2, scratch loving.
To draw an analogy, what kind of parent would give his children everything
the
y wanted? Perhaps we can learn from our trials, when they are not too great.
W
hen they are too harsh though, we have the *duty* to say to God, as our
patria
rchs, prophets, and Rabbis did, "Obey thy laws!". Even when this is said
in va
in, God forbid.
MB> possibly exist. The fatal flaw is that these three
MB> religions insist that their god is in charge of
MB> both the material and the spiritual milieu.
I do not believe there is a total separation between the two. Except in
a way
that we will never experience as beings apart from that which has no physical
limits. We always live in a material world, the most common Jewish conception
of an afterlife is a *physical* reserection, complete with the same body.
The seperation of body and soul, outside of the "nefesh", which means vitality
itself, is an idea according to many scholars forign to the ancient Jews.
I think perhaps our lack of this material and spirit dualism in our world
view
has made us "materialistic" when viewed from an ethnocentric perspective,
we
don't consider the proper enjoyment of material things to be a sin, as long
as
the enjoyment is not done in the spirit of the negation of God.
MB> Once you put him in charge of both, it is all over, so far
MB> as "God is Love" goes.
What exactly is meant here by "in charge"? Would people really be better
in th
e long run if the universe was a giant marionette show? How would people
impro
ve themselves then?
I don't want to imply that I give a darn about whether you have any religion
o
r not, I just felt like sharing some things and enjoying the debate. I sympath
ise with many of your concerns, this has always been an unresolved issue,
and
will always be until the end of history. That, however, should not keep
us fro
m discussing it, and arguing it between ourselves, and God.
JBL
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--------
From: David Dahl
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Stewart Harris
Date: 29 Jan 94 17:07:00
--------
EID:1cfe 1c3d88e0
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to ALL <=-
MG> * Original To : Martin Goldberg, 1:124/4115.221
MG> * Original From: Dean Cochrane, 1:153/942.2
MG> * Original Date: Jan 21 07:32
[...]
SH>In 1975 I have a dream. There is a drawing. I wake up at 3:00
SH>a.m., make the drawing on paper, wake my wife. That morning I
SH>buy some materials and in 15 minutes a build the device in the
SH>drawing. It is a device to overcome gravity using no energy.
Ha! It only took me 4 seconds to fill a helium baloon.
I missed this post in the UFO echo. I lurk there to keep
abreast of the latest rantings and skeptic-inquisitions. There
is a *lovely* lot there. Don't get me wrong, there are a few
intellegent people there who ask for proof of claims... but they
are routinely attacked and accused of being "agents of
disinformation!" The echo is good for a laugh, though.
Dave
... Got Mole problems? Call Avogadro 6.02 x 10^23 ...
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Main Frame BBS! Eldred, NY (914)557-3567 (1:272/85.0)
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--------
From: David Dahl
To: All
Sub: God DOOMit!
Date: 30 Jan 94 06:42:02
--------
EID:9960 1c3e3540
The following is a message I read in Usenet.
-----------------------------[ CUT HERE ]------------------------
From: greenwb4341@cobra.uni.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Doom posts, Jesus, and Christians
Organization: University of Northern Iowa
@Message-ID: <1994Jan24.190523.21834@cobra.uni.edu>
I've kept quiet for long enough...
First of all, I realize this newsgroup is about action games and not
religion or organized philisophies. However, people have ventured into the
former, and the lack of balanced response needs to be taken care of. If
you're
not interested in a (hopefully) intelligent Christian response, jump to
the
next post.
Secondly, I'd like to respond to all of the flames in advance. "Exit
only" includes your head. Get it out.
Some of the recent postings show an ignorance in four main areas:
Jesus Christ, the Bible, Christians, and (ooh!) reality.
*** Jesus Christ ***
In all of my (albeit limited) experience, the only people who slam Him
like we've seen, are people who've never known Him personally and intimately.
To claim to have even a basic knowledge of true Christianity or of Jesus
himself without the above, is to broadcast your own ignorance.
While there are many understandable (but someday unacceptable)
reasons why someone wouldn't choose a personal relationship with Him..."I'm
on
my own trip. I don't want to make Jesus my Lord", "Personal relationship?
What
are you talking about?!", "Everything that reeks of Christianity disgusts
me",
etc., etc.,... to claim to be as informed as someone who does is plain
illogical.
Jesus is:
Someone who cares about and loves you more intensely than you'll ever know.
The Son of God and sinless, and therefore the only one qualified to remove
the
focus of God's judgement against us - our sin. Definition of sin: to wrong
or violate someone. One of the affects of sin is relational separation from
the one we've sinned against. Another aspect of sin is that it can't be
ignored (as far as God is concerned) indefinately. You will reap what you
have sown. To demonstrate the above definition of sin, ask yourself three
questions: Do I know the God of the Bible closely? When I do something wron
g
to someone, (ie. Not respecting them for who they are) does it cause our
relationship to distance (if it isn't already)? When I do something, is
there an eventual result of that action?
The One who died on a humiliating cross for crimes He didn't commit, and
went
to Hell for three days to experience the full separation from and wrath
of
God for us. As proof, He was resurrected from the dead after the above
punishment.
Offering to clear your sins from the sight of God. The reason why He does
this
is because He loves you deeply and completely - as you are. The authority
H
e
has to do this is based on the last point above - He's taken the punishment
for us.
What this means to you:
You can accept or reject His offer. To deny the offer exists is the same
as
rejecting it. Either way, you will (are) experience(ing) the results of
your decision. From my perspective, trusting Him to the point of making
Him
my Lord and receiving His forgiveness is the best thing that's ever happene
d
to me. Once you get beyond the sin garbage, God is neater than you would've
imagined.
*** Christians ***
There are a lot of screwy ones out there who can be really unpleasant
people to be with. My experience (again, limited) would show more to be
hard t
o
tolerate than not. I'm fortunate to be among a group that is enjoyable and
a
pleasure to be with.
There are normal, intelligent Christians out there. Not all people who
believe the Bible for what it says are Bible thumpers wearing clothes that
went out of style decades ago, idolizing preachers stroking your last dollar,
relishing the fact that most people will go to hell, and wacked out on FAAIITH
.
If you look around enough, you will find these people.
Also, Jesus and Christians are two separate things. Don't lump them
into one category. Jesus is Jesus, Christians are Christians.
*** The Bible ***
The Bible is true, and deserves to be treated like it. To disregard it
is your choice. To figure out if its true or not, read it with a half-way
open
mind. Test it out. DON'T use a King James if you can help it, unless you
are a
literature major or are fluent in 17th Century English. Try an NIV, NRSV,
NKJV, Living, etc. If those terms don't make sense to you, go to the nearest
(hopefully not wacked out) Christian to translate the abbreviations.
If you get into it, you'll find it reveals God and Jesus as they are.
If you ask God to have it make sense, He will.
*** Reality ***
I've seen a few postings from people who want to call "Mephistopheles"
Lord, enjoy Satanism, etc. My response to you is that you haven't experienced
the fullness of Satan himself, or his minions. You're a joke. If you disagree
- E-mail me at the address below.
I've also seen postings mocking Jesus and/or His teachings. Every
person has that right. Usually it (again) is from ignorance or an emotional
spaz. I recommend knowing the object of your mockery - if nothing else,
you'll
be able to mock it intelligently.
If Jesus truly was raised from the dead, then every word He said is
important and needs to be listened to. You will be/are held accountable
for Hi
s
teachings whether you accept them or not. Again, this is assuming He was
raised from the dead.
*** Conclusion ***
People who are smart enough to use computers to post to this newsgroup
don't necessarily know what they are talking about. In topics concerning
Jesus
,
the Bible, and at times, reality - the ignorance displays itself for everyone
to see (if they can see it).
If you have the ability to suppress spasms, keep the postings focused
on computer games and away from Jesus unless you have something positive
and
meaningful to say.
This is not a proselytization letter. It only serves to round out the
wackiness of the original "Jesus is coming soon because of the current state
o
f
the world." Anybody who knows anything about history knows the world's never
been good for the "hoi polloi" (the masses). And it serves to balance out
the
Jesus sucks! the Bible sucks! and All Christians suck! postings. He, it,
and w
e
are better than this newsgroup make us out to be.
If you feel any pressure to be converted (ahem - make Jesus your Lord)
.
Go for Him! He's awesome! However, that is not my primary reason for posting.
I apologize if this posting "sounds" harsh - it reflects my emotional
reaction,
Take it or leave it,
Benjamin Greenwood
greenwb4341@cobra.uni.edu
319-266-0931
-----------------------------[ CUT HERE ]------------------------
If it wasn't so funny, it'd be sad.
Dave
... My opinions may have changed, but the fact that I am correct has not.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Main Frame BBS! Eldred, NY (914)557-3567 (1:272/85.0)
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 30 Jan 94 18:23:46
--------
EID:fb49 1c3e92e0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d4c4182
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0e13d59c
ce> Indeed, this is a strange and idiotic world.
FR> I had not noticed. }:-}
Add "uninformed" to that.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: J.J. Hitt
To: William Stone
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 04:57:57
--------
EID:acfc 1c3f2720
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day
WS> of rapture when we are caught up in glory and the earth
WS> swallows up them and their abominations. May they suffer
WS> the agonies of their sins and wail in pain as the burning
WS> fires of hell consume their flesh. I only wish I could be
WS> there to light the oven, to be honest.
hehehehe...
Well, at least you're honest, you sadistic little shit.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 30 Jan 94 22:38:05
--------
EID:8289 1c3eb4c0
GG> Do you think he could send Jesus again to take over my car payments?
GG> Just curious.
Only if its a Chevy. Even God won't drive a Ford ;)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
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From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: TRIVIAL THINGS
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:12:50
--------
EID:2865 1c3b4180
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A96D2802
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
Discussing TRIVIAL THINGS with Charlie J. Ray, Steve Quarrella remarked:
SQ> Hwaet, Charlie!
SQ>
SQ> 16 Jan 94, dixit Charlie J. Ray ad STEVE QUARRELLA:
SQ>
CJ> SQYou also seem to ignore the pure political force that was used to
CJ> make th SQ"anno domini" a standard. Are you aware that it was a
CJ> crime, punishable SQdeath, to not believe in God for a long period of
CJ> European history? Which exactly the point.
CJ>
SQ> So here you're conceding that your faith has been propagated over the
SQ> centuries by the use of force?
And in Massachusetts it's illegal to use tomatoes in clam chowder. Not
punish
able by death, but about the same magnitude with me as considering atheism
a c
rime.
Just Gadflying as Usual,
Ack!
--- MacWoof Eval:02Sep93
* Origin: HadesPoint -- Milwaukee WI USA (1:154/40.2)
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From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: The Reign of God is at h
Date: 27 Jan 94 08:15:04
--------
EID:76f7 1c3b41e0
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A96D2888
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
Discussing The Reign of God is at h with Charlie J. Ray, Steve Quarrella
remar
ked:
CJ> Just like any other cop out, when faced with a possibility that has
a
CJ> long tradition and historical background to support it
CJ>
SQ> Oh. Is this where we get into the "It's old so it must be right.
SQ> After all, lots of people have written about it." debate?
Yeah, sorta like incubi and werewolves.
--Ack!
--- MacWoof Eval:02Sep93
* Origin: HadesPoint -- Milwaukee WI USA (1:154/40.2)
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From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: RELIGION OF DAN
Date: 27 Jan 94 11:08:09
--------
EID:4b87 1c3b5900
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A96D5119
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
Discussing RELIGION OF DAN with Fredric Rice, Steve Quarrella remarked:
SQ> Hwaet, Fredric!
SQ>
SQ> 17 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad STEVE QUARRELLA:
SQ>
> Neither do deists. We have two known deists in this forum. One of whom
> admittedly tends to create "god" in his own image...shit, creating
> something this big and then walking away with a can of Foster's in hand
> is something that I would do if I could get away with it.
Create a deity and then claim that it's Miller Time.
SQ> Like I said, there's that bit about creating god/God in one's own
SQ> image. Picture Sir Ralph Richardson with a bottle of Bass Ale. :)
GUINNESS, you heathen.
--- MacWoof Eval:02Sep93
* Origin: HadesPoint -- Milwaukee WI USA (1:154/40.2)
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From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Gaines Johnson
Sub: The All Knowing
Date: 29 Jan 94 15:43:40
--------
EID:2713 1c3d7d60
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A97034AC
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
Discussing The All Knowing with Steve Rose, Gaines Johnson remarked:
GJ> (Some fundys arn't timed little sheep, so don't try to rear-end this
GJ> one!) ^^^^^^^^
Heavens, no. That would be "dirty and perverted" and spread awful diseases
to
all our innocent children. (g)
--- MacWoof Eval:02Sep93
* Origin: HadesPoint -- Milwaukee WI USA (1:154/40.2)
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From: Raven Still
To: All
Sub: PRETTY INTERESTING AROUND HERE!!!
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:54:46
--------
EID:d96d 1c3e56c0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 2d4c1e95
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7703
Well, I'm New and I have a few Questions.
#1. Is there any Pagans on this echo?
#2. The rules here seem non-exsistant. Are there any rules?
#3. (This is probably old hat, but I like it). Did Adam and Eve have navels?
#4. Do you fundamentalist Crispies plan on burning some more witches in
the
future? If so let me know, so I can warn the others.
Raven
... CP [NR] * All the kookies are not in the jar.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum... And Do I Feel Better! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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From: Daniel Doran
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 30 Jan 94 14:39:00
--------
EID:632d 1c3e74e0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3059e9c4
JOHN WINDSOR wrote something that might even have been about Debate
JW> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
JW> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
JW>
JW> Here are some possibilities:
JW>
a. Christians have beliefs that _substitute_ faith for intellect
and some of them demand that you do the same.
b. Taoists don't tell them they are going to go to hell.
c. Buddists don't get mad and tell them to go to hell.
d. Mormons don't let anyone else look at their "Holy" books.
e. all of the above (and more)
* KWQ/2 1.2d * Ways to skin a cat: #27 --- Use an electric belt sander
--- QScan v1.06b
* Origin: * La Cantina BBS * El Paso 915-532-0332 v.32bis/DS 4G (1:381/123)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Sound familier? Part 1 of 2
Date: 02 Feb 94 07:13:09
--------
EID:4834 1c4239a4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c924
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "Skeptic (Critical examinations)"
* Originally by David Bloomberg
* Originally to Fredric Rice
* Originally dated 29 Jan 1994, 11:32
db> This thing certainly made its way around, didn't it?
FR> The individual has made his way around, yeah.
No kidding. He first popped up on SCI&TECH, on which I'm a co-moderator,
and
got into a flame-match with Matt Giwer. He was told to shut up by another
co-
mod. Then he came to POLITICS, in which I'm an Assistant Moderator, and
he s
tarted going off topic and bringing in stuff from SCI&TECH. I told him
to, es
sentially, shut up. He came back and threatened to sue FidoNet for discrimina
tion if I kicked him off. I told him to get a clue and that if he argued
any
more, he was going to find himself thrown out.
Meanwhile, he continued in SCI&TECH, posting this creationist nonsense.
One o
f our strictest rules is: no religion (including creationism). I told
him to
end it. He said ok, and then, about a week later, started discussing religio
n again. Bye, bye, Mr. Harris. THEN he went into the UFO echo (where I'm
an
Asst. Mod. also) and started talking about his amazing device which defies
gra
vity (but has nothing at all to do with UFOs). I warned him for being off-
to
pic. Then he started in with religion again, and I warned him again for
being
off-topic. I haven't seen much of him since. He must think I'm some sort
of
nightmare: no matter where he goes, there I am. :-)
~*~ Living well is the best revenge - Gwenny The Pooh
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 02 Feb 94 08:46:42
--------
EID:1718 1c4245d5
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c92c
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 851bfda5
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I've always wondered about what might motivate this particular belief
FR> -- to put a cap on the total number that are allowed to be "saved."
FR> Yes, it may be written dogma yet the motivating for having written it
FR> remains unclear.
mb> I believe the account is in Rev. 20. It states that the narrator looks
mb> into Heaven and sees 12,000 from the tribe of ___ and 12,000 from the
mb> tribe of --- etc., naming each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel as it
mb> continues. Since the JW's regard Revelations as a book of prophesy,
mb> it "logically" follows that what the narrator was seeing was the future
mb> population of Heaven.
Now why didn't I think of that? This makes perfect sense.
mb> The trouble with the conclusion is that not everybody agrees that
mb> Revelations is entirely a book of prophesy or in what the meaning
mb> of the book as a whole is.
Certainly not else inerrants would be required to adopt it as an ideal.
~*~ You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners - jonny vee
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Playing by the rules....
Date: 02 Feb 94 08:50:24
--------
EID:be18 1c42464c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c92d
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 bdac6a48
PID: FM 2.02
#include Richard Thorneycroft
#include to Hector Plasmic
RT> When the personal testimony is corroborated and is similar to millions
RT> of other testimonies and takes place over 1900 years that constitutes
RT> legitimate evidence. You lose, gotta do better than that.
RT> (how about cheat, change the definition?)
[...]
mb> There's MY testimony, and it is just as valid
mb> as yours, and just as easily corroborated.
Like Jesse and his "you're an exception," this clown will not want to admit
to
himself that deities are not required.
~*~ Did you know that whiskey was made to keep the Irish
from ruling the world? -
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Stuart Lumgair
Sub: Adam...
Date: 02 Feb 94 08:52:44
--------
EID:05d3 1c424696
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c92e
REPLY: 1:134/32.666 54cbe786
PID: FM 2.02
#include Ron Ballew
rb> If your only objective is to demean the Bible and bash
rb> Christians then you have willingly joined the legion
rb> of Satans's angels.
FR> Neat! That goes into the blue file.
sl> Actually, I seem to remember a motorcycle gang by this name ...
sl> perhaps that is the group he feels you will join. Just one mans
sl> stupid opinion, of course
I knew I could count on Stuart to find a rational reason.
~*~ They did not evolve. They were artifically genetically altered.
- Ronald Stringfellow (Ass of god)
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
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PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Larry Brewer
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 02 Feb 94 08:54:52
--------
EID:50ea 1c4246da
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c92f
REPLY: 1:128/50 2D454876
PID: FM 2.02
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
MG> Hail Satan, Johnny.
lb> above view wind up hurting millions of innocent people (children)....
I
lb> saw a picture yesterday of a young Jewish boy with a Nazi standing
lb> behind him with a machine gun.... I will never forget the terror on
that
lb> childs face. Remember this person is serious.
I sent this individuals' SysOp and his network coordinator complaints.
~*~ May Dopefish not pee in your wheaties. - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Brian Vogel
Sub: file
Date: 02 Feb 94 08:56:08
--------
EID:9edf 1c424704
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c930
REPLY: 1:280/25 52e9aa82
PID: FM 2.02
> ;;; Setup Log File Opened 11/20/93 03:59:33
> User chose as destination directory: 'c:\afterdrk'
> May have had to create the directory: c:\afterdrk
> ;; CopyFilesInCopyList
> [24] Overwriting file: 'C:\WINDOWS\AD-DOS.COM'
Please be sure to post your local messages in the local message areas.
You ar
e posting mail in an international forum which is transported around the
world
. Your mail has been getting all the way to Holland.
~*~ "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
screaming in terror like his passengers." (nicked from Jim Harkins)
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Judas failed miserably
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:06:48
--------
EID:b41c 1c4248d8
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c931
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 0aab3adb
PID: FM 2.02
#include Mike Staab
FR> As was predicted. Faced with a clear-cut contradiction of
FR> two differing accounts of a myth, the must-believer will concoct an
FR> interpretation to salvage an otherwise unworkable faith in same myth.
FR> The predictions were made, the stimulas supplied, and the rat let
FR> loose in the maze. The results of the test were exactly as predicted.
mb> There are some things about the Xian viewpoint on this one that I have
mb> a hard time reconciling with reality. If you just look at their
mb> explanation for the seeming contradiction regarding death method, it
mb> makes no sense.
No amount of interpretation of this myth can be rational, surely, and yet
most
will tell us that it makes no difference and the contradiction does not
adversely affect dogma. It _should_ end inerrant beliefs, though, yet,
again,
we're not talking a rational belief system here.
mb> If I can picture their explanation, it requires Judas to climb out
mb> on a limb that overhangs a cliff, tie a rope around the limb, then
mb> tie the other end around his neck, then jump. Upon jumping, he
mb> discovers the hard way that the rope was not very sturdy, it breaks,
mb> and he tumbles down the cliff.
In the middle of a field, yes.
mb> First, it was pretty thoughtless of him to not
mb> check his equipment prior to committing the act.
He knew that his equipment was subject to breaking and, knowing this, set
hims
elf up along a cliff so that, if it did break, he would be certain to "fall
he
adlong" down the cliff. Now why he didn't just jump in the first place
only g
od knows.
And ain't it funny that no mention of a cliff is present in the myth?
mb> Second, it is perhaps the only recorded instance of a person, intent
on
mb> hanging himself, picking a limb that overhangs a cliff and having to
mb> climb the tree to accomplish the act.
I'm getting dizzy.
mb> And on top of that, we still have no understanding of how he could have
mb> been the one to purchase Potter's Field at the same time the priests
in
mb> the Temple were using the same money to purchase Potter's Field. The
mb> apologists seem to be willing to overlook THAT glitch altogether.
The title search doubtless took a long time and, Judas, being an atheist,
deci
ded not to turn in all of his "blood money" so that he could hang out (so
to s
peak) in a few bars before hanging himself and jumping off of a cliff. While
t
he priests were buying the field and the title search was underway to make
sur
e that the property changed hands legally, Judas also put in a bid on the
plot
and, not waiting for clear title hanged himself, was cut down by a friend
and
, after riseing again, jumpped off of the cliff.
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
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PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Christianity
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:25:52
--------
EID:07c7 1c424b3a
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c932
REPLY: 1:387/303 52eac6b8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Obviously as Christians are a very big part of the problem.
FR> When people can look at the Christian once-head of the KKK
FR> David Duke and attempt to get him elected to govern a state
FR> based upon the ideological platform of Christian hatred and
FR> intolerance, there is a very real problem which must be
FR> addressed by insiders. (An individual, I often add, who
FR> said that his Isis/Jesus mythos could not "return until the
FR> nigger is 'gone' from America.")
jf> Ok, but can anyone prove that David Duke is a Christian?
Certainly the evidence is clear for anyone on the outside looking in not
being
subjected to religious blinders. Were such comments as David Duke and Pat
Ro
bertson not epidemic of Christianity, I might be tempted to consider them
to b
e "false Christian sodomite scum" (if I may borrow a phrase) and not indicitiv
e of Christianity.
I must grant that intolerance is not pandemic to Christianity.
jf> [the] KKKs's actions are horrible.
It is a Christian organization as is the Aryan Nations and 10 others than
Davi
d Rice has enumerated for all to see.
jf> Their hatred for African Americans, Jews, and other groups
jf> is totally contrary to Jesus' Christ and His teachings.
I will grant you that. The "message of Christ" is to love everyone.
jf> The man who caried Jesus' cross, Simon, was from North Africa.
jf> An Ethiopian Eunuch believed in Christ in the book of Acts.
Mythology is fine yet mere words. Actions are what are important when there
a
re innocent victims in the path of believers.
jf> God loves every individual of every race; racial hatred is wrong.
Only the last phrase is correct. If you are talking about the classical
Chris
tian mythologies, your pantheon hates with a passion, seemingly to change
its
hatred from day to day. Quite often it has slaughtered or demanded to have
sl
aughtered the populace of entire cities who had the audacity to be living
on l
ands it "promised to the chosen."
Also, your pantheon only 'loves' those which believe in it. The uninfected
ar
e in no way connected with nor concerned with your mental concoctions and
you
do your cause a grand disservice to include the better educated, critically
th
inking in your delusions. By declairing that the better educated, critically
thinking not-believer in your pantheon are 'loved' by your pantheon, you
are a
ttempting to drag innocent people into your path of destruction.
Haven't we all seen enough of what that has done to humanity, Jerry?
~*~ As for the road map, those roads are paved with the bodies of more
than one person who died not for your religion, but because of it.
- Dan Ceppa
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:35:54
--------
EID:8be0 1c424c7b
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c933
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d4bdeea
PID: FM 2.02
JM> I love you too, Marty
ws> I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are
ws> influenced by reprobate minds. They know nothing of the
ws> giving love of Jesus as he hanged on the cross,
Actually, the man was more likely hung from the neck until dead and not
hammer
ed to boards according to the myths. The punishment for treason and blasphemy
was hanging, not being nailed up. Ignorant sheep-fuckers (such as yourself
-
- let's be honest, now) are incapable of rational thought, I should
add.
And as we have seen, the better educated, critically thinking not-believers
in
this forum are much better informed as to the origins of the classical Christ
ian mythologies than the believer. No believer, for instance, wishes to
ackno
wledge the Mithratic, Greek, Roman and Germanic origins of Christianity.
ws> nor do they understand the deep peace and satisfaction
ws> from the substitution of faith for their so-called "scientific
ws> proof".
You presume the audacity of assumption to know the mind of the
better
educated, critically thinking in this forum, William. These is no such
thing
as "scientific proof." There is only evidence towards which scientific
metho
d may be applied. There are also assertions which are made which are untestab
le and, as such, non-falsifiable which then falls into the venue of religion
a
nd falls out of the venue of science.
ws> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
ws> when we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them
ws> and their abominations.
Please do yourself a favor and kill yourself. That you have
not
done so already indicates that you don't believe in your own mythologies.
ws> May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain
ws> as the burning fires of hell consume their flesh.
Superstitious ignorance at its best. Religious zealotry and
fear
of death raises its ugly head. Hatred and intolerance for those hateful
bett
er educated whom you are incapable of understanding will get theirs, by
god, a
nd won't you just laugh!?
ws> I only wish I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
Just like any Jew-killing Nazi, that's Christianity.
ws> Yours in Christ,
Drag your dick out of his ass, William. Christ has got work to do.
~*~ Fundies are like the Borg: Separate them from the rest of the
collective consciousness and they malfunction. :)
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: Ron is a Christian just like you are
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:37:29
--------
EID:99da 1c424cae
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c934
REPLY: 1:106/7512 1782e764
PID: FM 2.02
Did you know that white people can get seriously mutated
in under 5 hours just by standing outside in the sun?
~*~ We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. - David Rice
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:41:05
--------
EID:8014 1c424d22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c935
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d4c4182
PID: FM 2.02
ce>> Indeed, this is a strange and idiotic world.
FR> I had not noticed. }:-}
ce> Add "uninformed" to that.
Okay... It is done.
~*~ All seven and we'll watch them fall. They stand in the way of love
and
we will smoke them all. - Prince and the new power generation
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Raven Still
Sub: PRETTY INTERESTING AROUND HERE!!!
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:43:16
--------
EID:3a3c 1c424d68
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1086c936
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 2d4c1e95
PID: FM 2.02
rs> Well, I'm New and I have a few Questions.
rs> #1. Is there any Pagans on this echo?
A few managed to survive Christian slaughters, yes.
~*~ If you get all bent out of shape reading this, I DARE YOU TO
PROVE ME WRONG!!!! Otherwise fuck off - Rick Vanderzwaag
---
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: David Rice
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:37:04
--------
EID:74ac 1c3e8ca0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 cc7439f2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d496066
On (28 Jan 94) David Rice wrote to Marilyn Burge...
DR> I understand your reasoning, and I agree with it. The violation
DR> of being denied ones livelyhood by another is very much like
DR> rape. The loss of ones' job by lay-off is very much like losing
DR> ones' family. I do not deny the pain and rage of employees of the
DR> timber industry who have their jobs frigged with.
DR>
DR> What are the alternatives? Humanity cannot continue to destroy
DR> what cannot be replaced in less than a thousand years or so. What
DR> happens when life is undesirable because it is dangerous to
DR> breathe? Will future generations look upon us kindly?
Styx has told us that this topic does not belong on this echo. I am
inclined to agree. In the spirit of his request, I'll drop the thread.
I have made my point, which was that EVERYTHING in connected. And when
we "do good" from the standpoint of our own hobby horses, we also do at
least an equal amount of bad to somebody else. I saw (and see) little
sign that you have thought through the negative aspects of what you are
attempting to achieve, and until you do, you are guilty of doing great
harm to other human beings -- probably as great a harm as the loggers
are doing by cutting old-growth timber. Until you can spend an equal
amount of time and adrenaline working out an alternative for those you
would displace from their jobs, towns, and homes, what you are doing is
immoral. We do not live in a binary world. Everything is complex.
That is why the art of compromise is not only moral, but necessary. If
we simply ride roughshod over the lives of other in order to achieve
our own goals, we are no better than the political despots we read
about in our history books.
... Lawyer: The only animal that defecates from both ends....
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Evil
Date: 30 Jan 94 18:25:02
--------
EID:eb1b 1c3e9320
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 6ea36723
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d496523
On (27 Jan 94) Larry Sites wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
LS> JC> The concept -- which as I said I don't find particularly
LS> satisfying
LS> JC>is
LS> JC>that God did not create "all," because chaos is what existed before
LS>
LS> JC>creation.
LS>
LS> Ah, who created the chaos? I thought you subscribed to the belief that
LS> everything but god must have a creator. Who created chaos?
It wasn't chaos prior to the creation anyway. There is a helluva
difference between a VOID and chaos, and Genesis 1 says it was a void.
... If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless.
--- PPoint 1.78
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 28 Jan 94 13:44:01
--------
EID:ce8f 1c3c6d80
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d495d3e
Friday January 14 1994, Steve Quarrella writes to Suzy Quarrella:
SQ>> lifetime. You're supposed to fast for 24 hours before receiving
SQ>> the blessing. I guess the reason is is to humble you. Maybe the
SQ>> real reason is to make you so ravenous for food, you get light
SQ>> headed and think you're feeling "the spirit". :)
SQ> Bingo.
Yup. I happen to have a detailed file on brainwashing meathods, and food
depr
ivation is one of the most effective ones on the list, along with high-sugar
f
oods and sleep depravation. I can post the file here if you want. Note
that i
t's in _RTF_ format, not plain text. (This is due to large amounts of text
fo
rmatting)
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Aaron Boyden
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: BOB LARSON..MONEY..MONEY..MONEY
Date: 30 Jan 94 13:55:01
--------
EID:10ce aa0c6fb1
MSGID: 1:206/2720 0f0d3cbc
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0e13d597
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> ab> For a while, when he was running his absurd campaign against NAFTA,
> ab> Perot had an 800 number which was answered by a machine. I had my
> ab> computer autodial it several hundred times a day for a couple of weeks.
> Neat! My software on the ECD6000 Telco distributor
> specifically accumulates information to assist in the
> presentation of information useful for making arrests
> of people who do just this.
What law does this violate?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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From: John Musselwhite
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 00:34:02
--------
EID:4205 1c3e0440
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4b71cc
Hi John...
On 28 Jan 94 11:16:00, John Windsor penned the following to Drew Webber
In reference to ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
I left the subject the same even though the mis-spelling is driving
me nuts! It reminds some of us of who originated the message! (he
says with a thinly-disguised flame!)
JW> You are correct, from a certain viewpoint. Part of the Christian
JW> faith is the belief that our faith is the only one that's right. That
JW> in itself appears arrogant to an outside observer, but is integral
to
JW> our faith. If we concede that there may be other correct beliefs than
Unfortunately, that attitude could very well be Christianity's
downfall... Historically, that stance was developed later in its
development, and may very well have little to do with Jesus'
original message.
JW> Always good to have my faith challenged. Otherwise it becomes pretty
JW> stale and boring.
In many respects, discussions such as (some of) these tend to add
colour to faith, rather than break it down. At least, hopefully
that is true for those who require faith in something higher than
themselves to survive.
JW> That was also my assumption. I'm a Christian who asked the sysop to
JW> pick up this echo so I could converse with non-believers and learn
JW> about their beliefs,
There are some here who will discuss their beliefs, but you will
find many who HAVE no beliefs as well. That is a very difficult
thing to get across to some people... that others do not require or
have any beliefs about some supreme being, but that attitude DOES
exist. As for myself, I'm an amateur historian with a specific
interest in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ORIGINAL documents from
first-century Judea. I don't "do" gods (as they say in A_THEIST) as
there is no place for that other than as an historical curiosity.
My OWN "beliefs", and I do have them which is why I consider myself
more of a Deist than anything else although that doesn't quite
cover it, are mine and do not apply to anyone else so I don't
discuss them.
JW> partly because of my desire to learn about people,
JW> partly so I can learn more about my own beliefs by defending them, and
JW> partly so I can learn about the weaknesses in the opposing side's
JW> arguments.
Well... that depends on your point of view. If you are going to
argue about things like "creation science" and the reality of the
Noachin Deluge, you will find you are out of your element. If it's
a more esoteric discussion you are looking for the same thing may
happen as the "evidence" question always comes up, and that seems
to be an endless arguement. If you are interested in history,
without prejudice as to theological content, perhaps we may be able
to shed some light on what is ordinarily a taboo subject to most
Christians.
It also helps to have a fairly thick skin! B-})
John
... Is this the right room for an argument?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 30 Jan 94 01:01:55
--------
EID:54dd 1c3e0820
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4b71cd
Hi John...
On 28 Jan 94 11:16:02, John Windsor penned the following to All
In reference to Debate
JW> Ok all you happy athiests out there...this here Bible-beater's got a
JW> question:
JW> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
JW> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
First, because many other religious groups know how to spell
"atheist"; Second, because Christians insist, because of the nature
of the religion that they are correct in their beliefs and everyone
who disagrees is wrong; and Third, because the historicity is so
easily called into question much of the time it's like shooting
fish in a barrel!
JW> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than intellect and
JW> this hacks you off.
"Faith is an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable."
JW> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a possibility)
A very SMALL possibility. The inconsistencies are such that the
probability of Saul/Paul being correct in his interpretation are
very slim.
JW> c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
I've never been able to argue religion with a Taoist. As long as
you refrain from being arrogant they seem to have the question of
personal reality under a fair bit of control.
JW> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
I just don't want to answer to their "secret police"! B-})
JW> e. None of the above.
Can I buy I vowel? How about an "E"? The answer to your question
could be, at some point in time these discussions MAY cause some
people to re-evaluate their opinions of reality. I know of one
case where this has already happened although I'd rather not go
into the details. For me personally, if it doesn't deal with
history, it's mostly for entertainment rather than education...
John
... "I don't write this nonsense, I just read it." (Simon Ewin)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Jeff Miller
Sub: Jehovah's Witnesses
Date: 30 Jan 94 01:16:43
--------
EID:9095 1c3e0a00
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4b71ce
Hi Jeff...
On 28 Jan 94 10:19:00, Jeff Miller penned the following to All
In reference to Jehovah's Witnesses
JM> Does anyone out there know anything about Joseph Franklin Rutherford
JM> and Nathan H. Knorr? They were the successors to Charles Taze
JM> Russell, and thus the second and third leaders of the Jehovah's
JM> Witnesses.
If you can find a copy of "The Kingdom of the Cults", a rather
biased but reasonably factual book (with references) on cults in
the U.S., there is a fairly in-depth look at the JWs...
As well, any public library will have at least some of the
information you seek without the religious prejudice which the
aforementioned book contains.
JM> (Incidentally, some years ago both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the
JM> Mormons protested the negative tone of the articles about them in the
JM> Britannica, and the encyclopedia replaced the articles with more
JM> "balanced" ones. Of course, one could argue that the newer articles
Amazing what the threat of a lawsuit from a group which doesn't
have to pay taxes can do!
John
... Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. -- Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 30 Jan 94 01:25:35
--------
EID:c73b 1c3e0b20
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4b71cf
Hi Marty...
On 28 Jan 94 18:54:10, Marty Leipzig penned the following to Dan Ceppa
In reference to Lightbulbs & X-tians
DC> populations. It is a method of establishing dominance
DC> over the colony.
ML> "Well...I'll be fucked." - the Beta Male Baboon.
"Whale oil beef hooked" - The Newfoundland Male Buffoon.
John
... If it's not private netmail, then it's a public free for all.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: jonny vee
Sub: Playing by the rules....
Date: 30 Jan 94 01:32:48
--------
EID:05e4 1c3e0c00
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4b71d0
Hi jonny...
On 27 Jan 94 14:54:00, jonny vee penned the following to John Musselwhite
In reference to Playing by the rules....
jv> But the book says that faith is the evidence of things not seen. And
jv> the book is full of Truth, it says so right there in the book.
"The Book says BURN and DESTROY repent and redeem and revenge and
deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum
'cause they don't go for what's in the Book and that makes 'em
BAD." -- Frank Zappa
... A Jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 30 Jan 94 12:08:25
--------
EID:61d4 1c3e6100
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4c1da1
Hi John...
On 28 Jan 94 04:56:00, John Pierce penned the following to All
In reference to "antichrist"
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist. (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
Beware... Saul/Paul was the Antichrist and the so-called Christians
were duped by him!
John
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love...
Date: 30 Jan 94 12:10:48
--------
EID:10b9 1c3e6140
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4c1da2
Hi Jerry...
On 27 Jan 94 14:57:00, Jerry Faust penned the following to Sunjester
In reference to About Love...
JF> In regard to the flood, death has never been a part of God's original
JF> intent for humanity. Moses did proclaim the coming rain for many
JF> years. I feel that God was grieved over those that died. He said
JF> that the world would never be destroyed by a flood again.
A pretty easy committment to make considering it was never
destroyed in the first place!
John
... It's just a book, Jerry!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: David Rice
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 30 Jan 94 13:09:07
--------
EID:5d0f 1c3e6920
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4c1da3
Hi David...
On 28 Jan 94 18:57:12, David Rice penned the following to Styx Allum
In reference to Monkey wrenching
DR> You will then be surprised to learn that many Deep Ecologists do not
DR> want fires to be fought IN SOME AREAS when said fires are started by
DR> lightning. As Leopold pointed out long ago, fighting forest fires in
Having directly seen the results of some of those fires I have to
agree with you. For that matter, there are times when a fire is
REQUIRED in order to keep the ecosystem going.
DR> I would file logging under "reckless disregard for others' property"
DR> though said "property" (ecosystem) doesn't belong to anyone, but
Although I don't agree with clear-cutting, logging is an absolute
necessity on this continent. Cutting trees down for pulp to make
Bibles or print the National Enquirer ("Jesus and Satan's face seen
over the skies of Texas!") is a crime, but a tree going down is
also a piano being played or a baseball bat being swung or a
post-and-beam house which could last for centuries being built...
(thank you Rush Limbaugh! it's the only thing he ever said that I
agree with!)
DR> The timber industry doesn't seem to care about
DR> the safty of its employees, and yet the same employees will defend
Tell that to the employees of the Posey Mill in Hoquium, Wash. They
aren't alone either. Next time you hear a concert played on a fine
American piano, think about the craftsmen who depend on old-growth
spruce and maple not only for their jobs, but for their artistic
lives and the enjoyment of millions of people for (possibly)
centuries to come as well. Although I appreciate the beauty of
trees in nature, I also believe in what we can DO with them. Of
course, that means management and not pillaging.
I'll respect Styx's wishes and make this my last post on the
subject as well, even though I cleverly worked in SOMETHING
on-topic in my statement above.
John
... Canada: a country where smokes are $7 but heart transplants are free.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Echos
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:32:43
--------
EID:8996 1c3e8c00
> What other religon based echos are out there and which ones are run by
> Steve Winter?
freq a copy of ECHOLIST from the source at 1:1/201. it has all the info
there
is on various Echos.
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2104/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: Stuart Lumgair
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 31 Jan 94 00:09:03
--------
EID:7ca7 1c3f0120
MSGID: 1:134/32.666 45e1f9d3
On (25 Jan 94) Johnny Mckinney wrote to Jeff Jones...
JM> JJ> No, he hates you. Vishnu loves you.
JM>
JM> Hello Jeff. Who is Vishnu?
Another of the worlds many SuperFriends. You should check
into all of them, maybe get the police to do a photo line-up
so that you can figure out which one is messing with your
life. They all look fairly similar, but there are subtle
differences. Yahweh is the one with all the blood and
body parts laying at his feet. Thor carries a hammer.
Some of the goddesses are really cute :)
... Don't give me that kinkier-than-thou attitude
--- PPoint 1.78
* Origin: Point of the Beast (1:134/32.666)
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From: Alan Jennings
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 30 Jan 94 11:22:00
--------
EID:0c91 1c3e5ac0
MSGID: 1:3800/6 0f0b026b
REPLY: 1:123/2 52e78cd0
PID: QE 2.75+ & FM 2.02
> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
No. Saddam Hussein is the antichrist. By Ecclesiastical Proclamation since
199
1.
Of course, any of the Brethren here in the echo may proclaim their own antichr
ist.
Now that John and I have made our pronouncements, what say YOU?
(be sure to present with portfolio)
-Archie Bishop
---
* Origin: The Holy Cloakroom - Online Ordination - (504)927-4509 (1:3800/6)
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--------
From: Tim Gaden
To: George Wells
Sub: RULES OF HOLYSMOKE (was GOD HAS LEFT)
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:43:42
--------
EID:c9b4 1c3c7d60
On 25-Jan-94, George Wells wrote to All about GOD HAS LEFT
GW> I am new to this echo and am not fully versed in it's rules, etc, but
I'm also new to this conference but I've manged to pick up a number of the
rules.
THE RULES IN HOLYSMOKE
1. Christians are not allowed to use scripture intelligently.
2. Atheists must have a narrow, positivist philosophy of language.
3. On no account should meaningful conversations be attempted.
4. Christians are not allowed to admit any of the atheists' criticisms
could
be true.
5. Atheists are not allowed to admit that anything Christians say might
be
true.
6. Any further rule must according with these guiding principles.
I hope you find this helpful.
Regards,
Tim Gaden
(A fellow Anglican).
--- TerminateMail
* Origin: "Love thy neighbour, yet tear not downe thy fence" (3:632/454.7)
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--------
From: mick howland
To: All
Sub: More Ark stuff
Date: 31 Jan 94 23:00:36
--------
EID:215e 1c3fb800
MSGID: 3:690/660@fidonet 3b1dfe4d
* Original to All in "SKEPTIC"
* Forwarded Mon Jan 31 1994 23:00:36 by mick howland at 3:690/660@fidonet
From "Sunday Times" Perth Western Australia, Sunday, January 30th, 1994.
Excavation pictures may reveal Noah's Ark
-----------------------------------------
by Andrew Turner
ADELAIDE: An archaeologist has released graphic photos of the
excavation of a vessel believed to be Noah's Ark.
Mr Jonathan Gray says the latest discoveries at the site near Mt.
Ararat on the Iran-Turkey border confirm it is one of history's most
significant archaeological finds.
And the vessel's measurements are believed to conform almost exactly
with the 300 by 50 by 30 cubits (a cubit is about 50cm) specified by God
when he gave the building instructions to Noah in chapter 6 of the book
of Genesis.
The Turkish government, which ordered the excavation of the site, is
taking the find so seriously it is constructing a viewing platform and a
four-lane highway in preparation for the predicted tourist boom.
Mr Gray, who has returned from the site, became involved in the
excavation about two years ago.
"There were some people who tended to suggest that it was just a freak
of nature, a big rock formation." he said.
"I am a sceptic by nature. two years ago, I was a big sceptic but I
wanted to satisfy myself about this as I am so interested in
archaeology.
"There is enough evidence for anyone who really wants the truth. But
we hope to be able to excavate enough of the remains to convince even
the most hardened sceptic."
According to the Bible, the craft was built after Noah was chosen by
God to perpetuate the human race after floods devastated the earth. Mr
Gray says the flood occured about 2345 BC.
Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wifes and male and female
specimens of animals were said to have been at sea for 13 months before
floodwaters receded enough for them to return to land.
Mr Gray is set to return to the site later this year when underground
investigation begins.
Originally he was called in to confirm that the relic was
archaeological and not natural.
This week he released detailed pictures of the site and relics
discovered during the latest dig, which concluded late last year.
In modern-day dimensions, the three-storey "ark" is about 150m long,
30m wide and 15m tall.
Mr Gray said the vessel, found about 2000m above sea level, was
covered by about 2.5m of mud, caused by a volcanic eruption.
Earthquakes in 1958 and 1977 had forced it to the surface, enabling
detailed investigations to begin.
Mr Gray said radar tests on the site had revealed a structure in the
ground, animal remains, rivets and other outlines.
The body of the "hull" has been lifted out of the ground about 6m and
the structure extends about 8m underground.
"It has all the characteristics of the ark as described in the old
records," Mr Gray said. "The structure shows rooms and passageways and
doors and ramps."
Hunter says his cynicism is gone
--------------------------------
Jonathan Gray was sceptical when he was told archaeologists had
discovered what they believed was Noah's ark.
After 26 years in the field, he joined American ark hunter Ron Wyatt.
Mr Gray said his cynicism vanished.
"There is enough evidence for anyone who really wants the truth. But
we hope to be able to excavate enough of the remains to convince even
the most hardened sceptic."
No more work will be carried out on the Mt Ararat site, about 2000m
above sea level, until May when a thick layer of snow has melted.
Mr Gray says that when a collection of metal rivets, timber samples
and animal remains appeared after 1991, archaeologists knew they had
"the real thing".
Subsequent testing confirmed the age and composition of the relics.
The hull's 7m ribs and detailed room structures and animal remains
were found during an expedition led by Mr Gray from October to December
last year. One of the most startling discoveries was part of a pair of
deer antlers.
"There is a base of one," Mr Gray says.
"It would indicate that there was an animal inside that boat-shaped,
man-made object that shed its antler during the time it was in that
vessel."
regards, mick
vege@omen.it.com.au
--- msgedsq 2.0.6b
* Origin: Join the F.A.R.C.E in your community today! (3:690/660)
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--------
From: mick howland
To: All
Sub: Exorcism update
Date: 01 Feb 94 00:00:24
--------
EID:1dd3 1c410000
MSGID: 3:690/660@fidonet 3b1e8a76
* Original to All in "SKEPTIC"
* Forwarded Tue Feb 01 1994 00:00:24 by mick howland at 3:690/660@fidonet
From "Sunday Times" Perth Western Australia, Sunday, January 30th, 1994.
Exorcism team may face death charges
------------------------------------
MELBOURNE: Four people who performed an exorcism on a woman believed
to be possessed by demons could face trial for manslaughter despite
having charges dismissed by a magistrate last year.
A spokeswoman for the Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr Bernard
Bongiorno QC, said the matter ws being reviewed by the office.
Ms Lee Carmody said if there were no delays there could be a decision
this week on whether the four were presented directly for trial.
Joan Vollmer, 49, died a year ago during an exorcism which lasted
several days at a country property near Dimboola.
Her husband, Ralph, David Klingner, Leanne Reichenbach and Matthew
Nuske were charged with manslaughter.
But during the committal hearing in Horsham Magistrate's Court, Mr Tim
McDonald found there was insufficient evidence to convict them.
Mr McDonald, who also sat as coroner, then found they had contributed
to Mrs Vollmer's death.
The court had heard medical evidence that it was highly probable the
death was caused by cardiac arrest due to pressure on the neck.
But Mr McDonald said there was a possibility the pressure applied to
the neck did not cause the arrest.
Mr Vollmer, a pig farmer, was on holidays and unavailable for comment.
His co-accused (and aquitted) also refused to comment.
Soon after Mrs Vollmer's death, her husband spoke to media across
Australia and from overseas. He was adamant she would rise from the dead
on the day of her funeral.
When she did not, Mr Vollmer said his faith in God was not diminished.
Mr Vollmer said he believed his wife had been possessed by demons when
she came under the control of a satanic cult as a three-year-old.
regards, mick
vege@omen.it.com.au
--- msgedsq 2.0.6b
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--------
From: Kieth Anderson
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Evidence.
Date: 30 Jan 94 14:21:00
--------
EID:2347 1c3e72a0
Hector you seem to have some strong misunderstandings about the truth. You
ask
ed for evidence in regards to the existence of God, well I am prepared to
show
you evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and that evidence demands a verdict.
A
re you willing to hear this evidence and except the verdict no matter what
the
demands are? To give an example in a court of law the jury judge and lawyers
may not have seen the crime being committed but none the less a verdict
is rea
ched that has consequences. I await your reply.
--- DLG Pro v1.0/DLGMail
* Origin: Atlantis BBS - Halifax, NS. (902)-492-1544 (1:251/14)
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--------
From: Kieth Anderson
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Humanism
Date: 30 Jan 94 14:42:00
--------
EID:f9d5 1c3e7540
Hector you do not make sence. You sprout off therories that you do not substan
tiate and when some one challenges you, you make jokes or insult them.
What d
o you beleive Hector? hat is your evidence?you ther
--- DLG Pro v1.0/DLGMail
* Origin: Atlantis BBS - Halifax, NS. (902)-492-1544 (1:251/14)
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Bonnie Jans
Sub: Bible
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:44:00
--------
EID:a4ce 1c3d6580
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f8d8089
BJ>These last couple of days I have just tuned into this Echo and have
BJ>been
BJ>trying to catch up on the newer messages (As of Dec. 1993- Jan 24.)
BJ>I'm
BJ>exhausted! :) This is a very interesting B>B>S But what I was
BJ>going to ask
BJ>is I remember reading a message about the Holy Bible on Shareware.
BJ>Is this
BJ>an easier translation to understand than the King James?
Are you looking for something for Windows or DOS?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: One God
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:07:01
--------
EID:cc5e 1c3d68e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f8d808a
FR>sb> Satan is a fallen angel.
FR>An equal to your Jesus. Just because this deity has fallen out of
FR>favor with
FR>itself doesn't mean that it is any less the deity, Steve, than the
FR>one which
FR>did not fall out of favor.
The fact that he is an angel and angels are not gods does show that he is
not a deity.
FR>sb> Mary is a human being.
FR>An equal to your Jesus, again. Many people pray to both for the same
FR>reasons. There is no difference between the Mary mythos and the Jesus
FR>mythos
FR>-- not even gender when you review the origins of Isis; not even the
FR>belief
FR>that they both lived as mortals. Both myths are said to still be
FR>accessable
FR>through
FR>thought and to grant interceedance upon those of the living.
There is a difference since Jesus is divine and Mary is only human. Also
there is no Biblical basis for praying to Mary. Scratch another deity.
FR>sb> Neither are God and neither are worshipped by me.
FR>We're not talking about which deities you choose to acknowleged or
FR>accept,
FR>Steve. We are talking about the deities within the Christian
FR>pantheon.
Are you talking official Christian doctrine? If so, I would like your
sources.
FR>Also, you worship the 'Satan' deity just as much as you worship the
FR>'Jesus'
FR>deity. Both fill your belief about why you must believe in the
FR>pantheon.
FR>Both, you believe, have an influence in your life -- one is
FR>"positive" (in
FR>your mind only) and the other "negative."
FR>You pay homage to it. You believe in it. It is a deity. That is
FR>undeniable.
It is deniable. Worship means "the act of paying reverence to God;
adoration". This does not describe my attitude towards Satan. I do not
worship him and he is not deity.
FR>FR> Then we have:
FR>FR> o The god thing(s)/ideology(ies) you label 'angel(s)'
FR>FR> o The god thing(s)/ideology(ise) you label 'saints' or
FR>'spirits.'
FR>
FR>sb> These are not God and are not worshipped by me.
FR>These are a bit of a reach, yes, yet still part of your pantheon.
FR>They are
FR>part of the Christian zoo of animal life -- they are all the same
FR>species,
FR>too, as they only breed among themselves. All are equal in validity.
Just because Christians believe in angels and saints (who are simply
believers) does not mean that we worship them. You have not shown how
they are gods.
FR>sb> What hatred have I tried to spread?
FR>You, by virtue of joining the single most destructive ideological
FR>cult which
FR>has ever visited death and destruction upon the face of the Earth,
FR>are in
FR>total and complete agreement with the ideologies. Were you not in
FR>agreement,
FR>you would not have joined the club.
FR>As I said before, one does not join the KKK and then claim one is not
FR>a bigot.
There is no hatred in Christianity. Christianity is about love for God
and love for all people. When you become a Christian, you agree with the
teachings of Christ but you do not have to agree with all those who have
used Christs name for their own purpose. I am not responsible for the
crusades. The teachings of Christ are not resonsible for the crusades.
Personal greed and hatred are responsible for the crusades.
FR>FR> You are exactly what the problem is. By unflinchingly trying to
FR>FR> convince yourself that there is no problem with State-created
FR>FR> mythologies designed to control the populace, you're a part of
FR>FR> the problem; you're inadvertantly a fascist working towards the
FR>FR> realization of a fascist State.
FR>sb> You need help.
FR> Why of course I need help. I don't understand
FR>proton/proton
FR>fusion yet and that is something of an embarrassment. My spelling is
FR>about
FR>what could be expected from a High School brat yet at least I'[m
FR>consistant
FR>and correctable -- when it's pointed out.
FR>Yet still, anyone who refuses to see the harm that his or her
FR>ideologies
FR>inflict upon innocent people __are__ part of the problem. It hardly
FR>matters
FR>that the individual has never shot someone three times in the back.
FR>What
FR>matters is that the someone subscribes to the same ideological
FR>justification
FR>as those who __do__ shoot people in the back.
FR>Individuals are individuals, Steve, and they will do what they will
FR>reguardless of what claims to ethics or morality are. It is their
FR>attempts
FR>at justification of their tyrannies which is unacceptable.
Christian ideologies do not inflict harm on anyone. Certain individuals
will act in an unacceptable way (eg killing abortion doctors), no matter
what the religon they claim to follow says. The ideology does not become
guilty because certain people who claim to follow it, have no problem in
acting contrary to it. Christianity is not dangerous. Unstable
individuals are.
BTW, Christianity is not a state created mythology.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Glory and power be unto the Ancient of Days
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Satan Again Up The Yang
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:52:02
--------
EID:ac29 1c3d6e80
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f8d808b
FR>sb> You never gave me your response to the
FR>sb> quote from the Qur'an concerning Satan.
FR>You never provided the original language quote. Which was pointed
FR>out to
FR>you. What we find are deities co-opted for use by other religions yet
FR>their
FR>attributes mutate to some extent and their names are changed. Let us
FR>take a
FR>history lesson together, shall we?
Since I do not know the Arabic alphabet I can not transliterate my Arabic
version of the Qur'an for you. Even if I could, I doubt you understand
Arabic and therefore it would not matter. However, I believe the Arabic
name for Satan is Shaitan. Before you use this as evidence that the
Qur'an is talking about a different being remember the difference is only
because it is in a different language, just as in Christian Bibles
translated in different languages, the name of Satan would be slightly
different. In english translations, Shaitan is translated as Satan.
FR> Phase 3: Someone, either you or some other badly informed
FR> individual, quipped that 'Satanists' also believe in the 'Satan'
FR> god.
Rick Vanderzwaag demonstrated that the Temple of Set seemed to believe in
Satan. However, I won't argue this point. If you disagree, take it up
with him.
FR> Phase 6: After many continued denials, you made the assertion
FR>that
FR> the Holy Qur'an also includes reference to the Christian deity
FR> called 'Satan.' You were asked to point out where it mentions
FR> this deity.
FR> Phase 7: You pointed to an "advasary" (pardon the spelling) and
FR> attempted to call it 'Satan' for no good reason other than to
FR> try to salvage an unworkable dogma.
Actually I called that adversary Satan for a pretty good reason, that is
the name he is called by in the Qur'an.
FR> Phase 8: John Musselwhite (who knows the Chrisian myths far
FR> better than you and I do and studies such things as original
FR> transcripts) attemted to correct your mistaken perception about
FR> the Holy Qur'an as well as to correct my misunderstandings as
FR> to the origins of the advasary.
I never saw any messages by John concerning the Qur'an. The only thing
I
saw from him concerning Satan was the possible Persian origins.
FR> Phase n: No matter what is said or done, there is but one way
FR> to resolve your misconception once and for all. This leads us
FR> into the method of your salvation:
It is about time we got to this. I have gotten sick of sidestepping the
issue. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to present my evidence.
FR>Present the bits of the Holy Qur'an which specifically mention this
FR>"Satan"
FR>and we will query those who study the original texts about the
FR>original names
FR>applied. We can argue endlessly if you're unwilling to reason
FR> yet
FR>there are "authorities" in such things. You and I are not. (Denials
FR>will
FR>get you no where if attempted, I would like to quickly add.) I will
FR>take
FR>your claims directly to the believers in the Holy Qur'an and see what
FR>they
FR>say.
Here we go.
Then did Satan make them slip
From the (Garden), and get them out
Of the state (of felicity) in which
They had been. We said:
"Get ye down, all (ye people),
With enmity between yourselves.
On earth will be your dwelling place
And your means of livelihood -
For a time." Sura II.36
(The Pagans), leaving Him,
Call but upon female deities:
They call but upon Satan
The persistent rebel!
"I will mislead them,
And I will create
In them false desires; I will
Order them to slit the ears Of cattle, and to deface
The (fair) nature created
By God." Whoever,
Forsaking God, takes Satan
For a friend, hath
Of a surety suffered
A loss that is manifest.
Satan makes them promises,
And creates in them false desires;
But Satan's promises
Are nothing but deception. Sura IV.117, 119-120
There are many more Suras that I can quote that use the name of Satan.
If
you want more, please let me know.
FR>If you can't find the bits of this Holy Books' scriptures, either
FR>attempt to
FR>find another religion which believes in the 'Satan' deity else admit
FR>that you
FR>were mistaken. If you find that 'Satan' is specifically spelled out
FR>and that
FR>it is in the original, I will humbly state -- for the record -- that
FR>I was
FR>sadly mistaken.
I does not matter if the word is spelled exactly the same as Satan. Even
in the Greek New Testament, it is spelled satanas rather than Satan.
Also, Muslims believe in many individuals who are also described in
the Christian Bible, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob,
Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Gabriel, John the Baptist, Mary and Jesus. If they
believe in the existence of these, why is it so surprising that they also
believe in the existence of Satan? Please ask any Muslims you know if the
Qur'an describes any of these individuals.
FR>We can decide upon your punishment or my punishment later. }:-}
I prefer cash. ;-]
FR>sb> Don't tell me you have already answered the
FR>sb> question in a previous message. Just answer the
FR>sb> question now!
FR>The answer is 'five.'
I thought it was 42.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Judaism
Date: 29 Jan 94 13:53:03
--------
EID:1e83 1c3d6ea0
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f8d808c
FR>HP> You, who are afraid to ask a Jew why they don't think Jess
FR>HP> was the messiah, are telling a Jew about Judaism? What next?
FR>HP> Plan on telling the cow how to eat the cabbage?
FR>sb> Almost as bad as people like Fredric Rice
FR>sb> trying to tell me about Christianity, eh?
FR>Who better than those looking in at Christianity from the outside
FR>whos sight
FR>remains untained by religious blinders?
So do you disagree with Hector about a non-Jew telling a Jew about
Judaism?
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Satan
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:04:04
--------
EID:c85d 1c3d7080
MSGID: 1:247/133 0f8d808d
JM> SB> about possible Persian origins of Satan but I do not see what
JM>this has
JM> SB> to do with the Muslim view of Satan. If this true, please
JM>provide the
JM> SB> evidence that Muslims don't believe in him. If you did not,
JM>please
JM> SB> let Fredric know.
JM> The Qur'an is out of my field of study as it's a such a late
JM> document. Apparently a belief in Satan originates with
JM>Persian
JM> mythology and was adopted by some of the Jews before the
JM>belief was
JM> squashed. I suspect the Muslims got it from the same place
JM>the
JM> Christians did as Saul/Paul would certainly have been aware
JM>of the
JM> myths.
I do not want to get into the possible Persian origin of Satan right now,
but I assume you are denying haven shown that Muslims do not believe in
Satan? I take it you also can see the possibility that Muslims believe
in
the existence of Satan just as Christians do.
þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ Prepare the way of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:18:42
--------
EID:fe53 1c3e8240
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4bdf63
REPLY: 1:247/133 068efa88
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Rick:
In a msg of , Rick Vanderzwaag writes to Tyler
A. W
under:
>> Rick, why don't you approach your logic professors and tell
>> them that you've discovered a third position between a and
>> not/non-a? I'm sure they'll be impressed.
RV> Actually, the professor at Brock University that teaches Logic (sententia
l,
RV> predicate and modal logic) also teaches the Buddhist Four Cornered Logic,
RV> which does not hold to Aristotle's Law of Excluded Middle or Law of
RV> Non-contradiction.
Rick, I assume this Buddhist four cornered logic has a good explanation
a
s to how something can be both a and not-a? Or how there can be three positio
ns in a binary situation? And please, seeing as you seem to understand
it so
well, explain it to me BRIEFLY. I don't want to read ten pages when it's
not
necessary, or be referred to a book when a short to medium lengthed explanatio
n would more than suffice.
RV> In the former we hold to the Boolean logic forms, which
RV> were intorduced by Bertrand Russel and Alfred North Whitehead. i.e.
Modus
RV> Ponens, Modus Tollens, Hypothetical Syllogism, Disjunctive syllogism,
RV> Constructive Delema, Conjunction, Simplification, and Addition, along
wit
h
RV> their Equivalence forms (Double Negation, Demorgan's Theorem, Commutation
,
RV> Association, Distribution, Contraposition, Implication, Exportation,
RV> Tautology and Equivalence), and Conditional and indirect proofs.
Why do I get the feeling you were reading this off a sheet of paper when
you typed it in?
RV> Take this to your professor who teaches logic, and you will find that
the
re
RV> is nothing wrong with anything I have posted here about logic. It is
a
RV> prejudice of Western thought which does not recognize Eastern thought
or
RV> dismisses it as mere mystical bullshit.
If you can show how my western prejudice should accept something which,
f
or all intents and purposes, appears to be mystical bullshit, I'm all ears.
Ho
wever, I will take it to one of our logic profs and see what his opinion
of it
is.
You appear to grasp tenuously to this agnosticism illusion in an attempt
to play the role of "open-minded guru". Don't have your mind so open that
you
r brain falls out.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Questions
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:28:02
--------
EID:0bd9 1c3e8380
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4be073
REPLY: 1:247/133 07970aa5
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Bedard writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TA>> Give me an example. Incidentally, have you read your old
TA>> testament at
TA>> all? Last I heard, it was in the bible, and it does contain some
TA>> rather
TA>> glaring moral atrocities.
SB> While I disagree with your opinion of the Old Testament, I will give
an
SB> example. Sanhedrin 55a allows sex with a dog as long as the sex is
SB> sufficiently perverted.
So if given the choice, you would prefer to dash the heads of the infants
of your enemies against the rocks instead of fuck a dog?
I may not enjoy it, but I think I might prefer to fuck the dog. Pretty
d
istasteful, tis true, but when the alternative is smashing in baby heads
like
pumpkins, at least I'll be able to sleep at night.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:30:04
--------
EID:d6f2 1c3e83c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4be0e5
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d367f97
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Jesse:
In a msg of , Jesse C. Jones writes to Tyler A.
Wund
er:
TAW>> Well, I fit your list fairly well, Jesse.
JCJ> Indeed you do, Tyler.
TAW>> Now what? Still no
TAW>> god.
JCJ> The works were cited not as evidence of God, but as evidence for
my
JCJ> statement that humans feel an emptiness inside.
Sorry Jesse, no emptiness either. Now what? I've read most of your syll
abus, and I recognize in it neither emptiness in the human condition nor
a god
.
You have not provided evidence, but unsupported opinion.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:32:30
--------
EID:5a22 1c3e8400
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4be1eb
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d367f98
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Jesse:
In a msg of , Jesse C. Jones writes to Tyler A.
Wund
er:
JCJ>> A belief in divine Providence is a matter of faith, and not of
JCJ>> human reasoning.
TAW>> In other words, it's an irrational belief with no basis in
TAW>> reality.
JCJ> Well, that's the accusation we've faced since Paul addressed the
JCJ> Athenians in Acts 17:16-34.
The accusation is well founded, by your own admission.
TAW>> Jesse, I don't know if you're intentionally confusing the issue
TAW>> or not. You have stated on separate occasions both that All good is
TAW>> God's work AND that All God's work is good.
JCJ> Aha! Here's where I was losing you. I don't recall ever saying
--
JCJ> and would hesitate to say -- "that All God's work is good."
You would then not support the position? You would assert that the state
ment "All God's work is good" is false?
TAW>> Jesse, these analogies are not valid and you know it. As your
TAW>> God is undemonstrated, choose an analogy which involves some
TAW>> undemonstrated facts. How about, "How would a Tarot-card reader
TAW>> analyze a world in which prescience didn't work?" Or, "How would
a
TAW>> douser analyze a world in which his abilities were fraudulent?"
TAW>> Those are much more accurate analogies.
JCJ> Only if there is no God -- right?
I simply turned your tactic of assuming your conclusion as one of your pr
emises back on you. If you seriously cannot imagine a world without a god,
yo
u sorely lack an imagination. Seeing as I can imagine a world with leprechaun
s, dragons and things that go bump in the night, it seems you're simply
being
stubborn in stating that you cannot even IMAGINE a world without your deity.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Atheists do good
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:51:04
--------
EID:73d8 1c3e8e60
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4bf765
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 098e0fec
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Tyler A.
Wunde
r:
taw>> Not really. It's only the goodness that flows to us through
taw>> [insert your favourite non-falsifiable entity whom you elect
taw>> as the source of good].
FR> That's right! I never realized it before. Star Goat _is_ evidenced
by t
he
FR> good works that I do.
But of course. If anyone challenges you on this, you just say, "But I ju
st cannot imagine a world without Star Goat!"
taw>> Currently listening to O Fortuna, incidentally.
taw>> I wonder if this means I'm no longer empty :)
FR> I'm not sure _what_ that signifies.
O Fortuna
velut Luna
statu variabilus,
semper crescis
aut decrescis;
vita destabilis
nunc obdurat
et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,
egestatem,
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem.
I won't bother with the second half :), but it was used as background mus
ic in the movie, "Excalibur".
---
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Amen!
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:35:50
--------
EID:4e1a 1c3f4460
-=> Quoting Jesse C. Jones to Jerry Faust <=-
-=> Quoting Jerry Faust to Don Martin <=-
JF> Jesus loves everyone: babies, athiests, Christians, gays, lesbians,
JF> etc.
JCJ> Amen, Jerry! Welcome to this corner of Hell, and good luck!
He didn't say anything about "self-righteous bastards with a pathological
martyr complex", though...so you're left out again.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Patrick Humphrey
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:39:20
--------
EID:5d57 1c3f44e0
-=> Quoting William Stone to Johnny Mckinney <=-
JM> I love you too, Marty
WS> Johnny,
WS> I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are
WS> influenced by reprobate minds. They know nothing of the giving love
of
WS> Jesus as he hanged on the cross, nor do they understand the deep peace
WS> and satisfaction from the substitution of faith for their so-called
WS> "scientific proof".
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
WS> when we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them and
WS> their abominations. May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail
WS> in pain as the burning fires of hell consume their flesh. I only wish
WS> I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
Yeah, I'll bet you do...but then, by your own hateful admission, you're
going to be in the oven with the rest. "giving love of Jesus", my ass.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Re: Fleas: Adam...had'em.
Date: 29 Jan 94 17:57:59
--------
EID:fb39 1c3d8f20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4af80700
REPLY: 1:250/820 2d45e0be
> HP> + Origin: "This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!" (1:380/
16)
CJ>"This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!" "Is not!"
ROFL! Oh, for another 10 bytes on an origin line. :-)
--- Tear a new one
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Emptiness redux
Date: 29 Jan 94 18:11:36
--------
EID:73f5 1c3d9160
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4afb3800
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 0d8202b3
> > cjr> Try anthropology. The religious impulse has been documented and
> > cjr> observed in practically every culture that we know of, beginning
> > cjr> with the Neanderthal grave with flowers in it, dating to tens of
> > cjr> thousands of years ago.
> > First of all, your dates are in error.
> > Second of all, isn't it a shame that primitive
> > superstitions are still with some of us?
jv>And if I may butt in,
jv>Thirdly, how the fuck do flowers in the grave of Neanderthals (not
jv>even the same species, not even our ancestors; we are descended
jv>from Cro-Magnon) say anything about religion?
Beats me. Next they'll be telling us that we wear clothes because some
asshole in the not-distant-enough past was told he was naked by some
god-fellow (who was skipping about merrily, I'm told :-).
--- Tear a new one
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Adam...
Date: 30 Jan 94 13:00:00
--------
EID:d482 1c3e6800
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0f0cd2a4
PID: FM 2.02
>>> jv> Did you invite this Ballew person, too, Mr Quarrella?
>>> Good grief, stop calling "Mr."...you're making my hair turn gray,
> jv> Sorry. I'll try not to be so respectful (wink).
> DO try to be a bit more hateful in the future, eh? :)
Alright, fucker.
> jv> Actually, I think Scientologists are a bit more together than
> jv> that, and are also not prone to be quoting the bible. But
> Rather, they quote nonsense about ancient Earth empires and advanced
> societies. :)
Really? I never knew about that shit. I thought they were all about e-meters
and that kind of psycho-pseudo-scientific stuff. I never knew they had
any of
that other kind o' crap. Of course, considering that it's a "religion"
that
was invented on a bet by a science fiction writer, I suppose that fantasmic
st
uff is about par for the course. Can't have a religion without a load of
apoc
alyptic BS, eh....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Atheists do standing four-part squat thrusts
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:22:01
--------
EID:5ecb 1c3e7ac0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0f0f387e
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0b960d8d
PID: FM 2.02
> Yeah, make sure that she has a round handy. Life with the brain
> removed certainly doesn't sound appealing.
On the contrary. The one nice thing about losing your mind is that you
don't
miss it.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: About Love...
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:34:02
--------
EID:932a 1c3e7c40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0f0f387f
PID: FM 2.02
> JF> As a Christian, I feel that I can have a part in defeating ills
> JF> that plague our society: racism, poverty, etc. Jesus' love
> JF> extends to everyone.
> Please download GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system (214-412-8457) and we'll
> go further.
Well, it seems that none of our religious buddies will look at this and
compla
in, but I will.
Personally, I think that the picture does not demonstrate god's curse on
human
s, but human's curse on other humans. We have been more than capable of
feedi
ng everyone on the planet for years now, but we do not have adequate distribut
ion of that food, and there's also the little matter of some people having
no
money to buy food with. If there is a god, it's not its fault that we don't
t
ake care of each other.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Re: Rick still hasn't learned a thing from the echo...
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:10:05
--------
EID:d166 1c3e5140
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4bdbdd00
REPLY: 1:247/133 0e087d18
> >No one has "come along with anything different." Explain how one may
> >not believe in gods, and at the same time not NOT believe in gods.
RV>Read that sutra, and then get back to me.
Sheesh, you philosophy students and your sutras. Why don't you exersize
your own brain (sober).
Theist Atheist Strong Atheist
Believe <-------> Don't believe <--------> Disbelieve
Believes x is right Doesn't give a rat's rear Believes x is
wrong
The agnostic wavers (at least so he'll claim) between believing and not
believing depending on when you ask him.
RV>You're analogy however is not at the same level as with the notion
RV>of a god or creator. We can quickly verify whether or not Santa has
RV>a workshop at the North Pole by actually going there and
RV>investigating it.
It can't be found by those who don't believe. Or those who do. It's
magic. Your refutation of his analogy just fell apart.
RV>I can also set up video cameras in all of the houses in a city
RV>to determine whether or not such a being actually drops off presents.
Your puny technology cannot triumph over Santa's magic; he won't let you
videotape him.
RV>Hence I can determine the truth value of the statement "Santa exists"
RV>by empirical means. I cannot do the same for god.
You can't do it for Santa, as demonstrated above. You can't do it for
most _any_ outlandish claim (like invisible pink hippos) because they're
intentionally constructed to be non-falsifiable. In the case of xtians,
of course, they blew it in several places and offered up too much data
which can be used to show their god doesn't exist as described. You see
bullshit "explanations" for this just like the Santa example above:
"well, god made the earth _look_ old as a test of faith." That's what
you're buying into, Rick (yes, buying into, not "not believing." You're
off the fence.). Non-falsifiable and non-evidenced fairy tales.
How is it that you haven't learned anything in this echo yet?
RV>Deists used to contend that God created the universe, and then left
RV>it to manage itself.
We're all waiting for your explanation of how something outside the
lightcone interacted with something inside the lightcone now, Rick. If
you can't provide one, what's that say for the Deist's god, eh? :-)
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Contradicting a contradiction with a contradiction.
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:11:31
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EID:ad6c 1c3e5160
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
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REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d47f6a0
> JC>Rom 3:10 "as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous, not
ev
> JC>one;"
> LS> BUNK! Paul is ADDING his personal interpertation and in so doing is
> LS> contridicting the clear message of the bible. Not only is Noah noted
> LS> as being rightious:
RT>Hi Larry, Paul prefaces his statement with _as it is written_ a
RT>ref. to the O.T..
Which simply means that there's more than one contradiction in the bible.
You may be surprised, but we're not.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Ignorance simplifies any problem. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Re: Passages
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:21:05
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MB> What we have seen is a populace that has been conditioned to think that
MB>they can't think for themselves but must have something outside of
MB>themselves do their thinking for them. And look where this conditioning
MB>has gotten us!
This is precisely, of course, what Jesse "teaches" in this echo.
> JC> I say this as constructively as I can. I respect that humanists
> JC> at least have thought about some of these ultimate questions.
MB> You keep using the word "ultimte" as though it has some meaning in this
MB> context. I can't say that it does, in my opinion.
Jesse _must_ address only "ultimate" questions. All the others have
obvious answers that don't require his god. So he makes a few up,
together with answers, and labels them "ultimate." When anyone points
out his questions have no meaning, they're hateful or pathetic. The
armor of faith.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Men go to war because women are watching. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: John Windsor
Sub: Re: Only right? What's left?
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:23:04
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JW>Part of the Christian faith is the belief that our faith is the only
JW>one that's right.
Got any evidence -- any at all -- that your faith is anything more than
wishful thinking based on mythology?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Revolutions do not run backwards. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: John Windsor
Sub: Re: Does the beef salute the butcher?
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:24:42
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EID:3cc2 1c3e5300
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
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JW>Does this mean that Christians are not welcome here?
What's a slaughterhouse without a few carcasses to butcher?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Draft politicians, not human beings. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: John Windsor
Sub: Re: Do dead men walk?
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:27:19
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JW>Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religio