God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Tony Nasrallah
Sub: speaking of bigots,
Date: 30 Jan 94 12:52:02
--------
EID:0a2f 1c3e6680
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f0c896b
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 2d43f820
> The Qur'an tells us that God made us into different nations and
> tribes so that we might know each other, not hate each other.
Gee, that makes a lot of sense... !?!
Different... so that they might know each other. Hmm.
Hate usually stems from differences. Although someone might hate
someone else for being similar, that is not nearly so common.
Using your statement above, please apply it toward different
religious denominations. Does it bring them together, or does
it tend to focus upon how they differ?
Perhaps that is why so many denominations preach condemnation
toward those who differ from their norm.
I fail to see the validity in what your Qur'an is apparently trying
to teach about tribal differences contributing toward knowing each
other. Separating cultures into separate tribes moves them apart;
rather than bring them together.
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From: Styx Allum
To: Suzy Quarrella
Sub: Walk on water? Better know where the rocks are.
Date: 30 Jan 94 13:04:03
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EID:3b3f 1c3e6880
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f0c896c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d45dd42
Hubby Steve:
> SQ> I don't do winter. :) [Why do you think I'm here in Texas,
> SQ> and not in my home state of Michigan? :) ]
Wife Suzy:
> Because I dragged you down here, that's why. :)
Oooooo... is that another case of
"Hate the sin... love the sinner"? ;-)
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From: Styx Allum
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Theory???
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:53:04
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EID:25ec 1c3ea6a0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145dd9
> JS> Only 1/2 of one percent of the Bible could be considered
> JS> innacurate or misunderstood.
In order to know that, you would have to know precisely how much
of it is wrong. Also, just WHICH .5% is innacurate could make
a monumental difference.
God designed your mouth to be big enough for your foot.
Naturally, God doesn't make mistakes. Right?
Or are they only .5% mistakes?
Hey, he missed the value of pi by nearly 5%, which is almost
ten times as innacurate as what you claim.
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From: Styx Allum
To: All
Sub: Conference Guidelines
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:56:05
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EID:d907 1c3ea700
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145dda
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcome
in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-9998
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 21:40:06
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EID:a154 1c3ead00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145ddb
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a42
> SA> Food for thought: Do you pray to your god?
> Yup.
> SA> If he is omniscient, would he not already know your thoughts before
> SA> any need to express them via prayer?
> Yup.
That means that prayer is redundant and unnecessary.
Do you believe in both omniscience AND freewill?
If so, are you aware that they are mutually exclusive concepts?
> SA> -Styx Allum, Moderator
> I'm new on this echo, but a beaten, grizzled veteran of Net356
I'm familiar with that network. One of my best friends founded it
back when they were calling Net 152 for their echo feeds.
He is now the NC for Net 152. He was also my nextdoor neighbor
when I started my BBS back in '81. Small world, no?
> BTW, noticed you're in Eugene, Or. Do you know Les Lemke?
Yes, however... he is in Coos Bay, OR. (About 150 miles away!)
We've had many heated discussions, usually about politics.
> ... Free speech means letting those who are wrong speak also.
Bingo. Welcome to HolySmoke!
-Styx
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 21:59:07
--------
EID:a154 1c3eaf60
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145ddc
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a43
> These events were carried out by men, using their free wills,
> not God IMHO.
Ah. In my last message, I asked you if you believed in free will.
You've already admitted to believing in your god's omniscience.
Food for thought:
Assume that god knows everything, incl. future (i.e. omniscient).
John has the "free will" to choose path "A" or path "B".
God already knows that he will choose "B".
Does John have the free will to choose "A"?
No. If he does, then God was incorrect. (Hence, not omniscient)
For your god to be omniscient, John can never choose anything
other than what God already knows he will choose.
For John to have free will, your god can not be omniscient.
Now you have the dubious duty of choosing which concept you
wish to believe in. If you choose to believe in both, you will
be guilty of lying to yourself, as they cannot co-exist.
---
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 30 Jan 94 22:16:08
--------
EID:4b58 1c3eb200
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f1609d6
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
> Ok all you happy athiests out there...this here Bible-beater's got a
> question:
> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
Because the majority of religious groups here ARE Christian.
They are also easy targets for logical debunking, due to their
belief in mutually exclusive concepts.
Their bible does them more harm than good, with regard to defense
of their belief system. We've had a veritable book posted here
of biblical contradictions and inaccuracies.
> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than intellect
> and this hacks you off.
Some people DO tend to be less tolerance of dogmatic ignorance;
so that is a valid theory.
> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a
> possibility)
BZZZZZT! Stick around, and you will find that the Christian religion
is based upon mutually exclusive concepts. Therefor, it can not be
true.
> c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
Other than to argue how "Tao" is pronounced. ;-)
> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
Arguing with a Mor(m)on is much like a one-way communication.
Their reality routines are stored in write-only memory.
> ... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
Where there's Holy Smoke, there's bound to be fundies afire.
...Black holes were created when God divided by zero.
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From: Styx Allum
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Fleas: Adam had'em.
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:1111 1c3f8a00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f911964
> BTW, Herr Comrade Allum, I never did send accolades your way for
> founding this forum.
My pleasure. Rub Styx together and add some sparks...
toss in some fundies, and there be holy smoke.
> SA> Little did I know that what started out as a joke to tease local
> SA> fundies... would catch on and become the 13th most active echo on
> SA> the FidoNet backbone (at last check).
> Hmmmmm...something satanic this way comes. HolySmoke the
> _13'th_ most active echo...not 12'th, not 14'th...
It's a prime echo, so it needed a prime number.
:)
--- ---
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From: Styx Allum
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Flood stud.
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:20:01
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EID:a8ef 1c3f8a80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f911965
> ... A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then?
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood."
Damn, I should have been a fundy, with a line like that!
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:43:03
--------
EID:c802 1c3f4560
I totally agree with you, brother. As Jesus told his discipiles when they
preach the good news and they reject it for them to knock the dust off their
shoes as they leave.
My shoes are dusted.
Johnny
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:51:05
--------
EID:a349 1c3f4660
Dear Marty
I cannot scientifically prove to you that God exists. Even Thomas
saw and talked with Jesus and he still doubted that he was the son of God
and that he had risen from the grave. He believed only after Jesus appeared
to him and Thomas was able to touch him. Jesus told us "blessed are those
who have not seen, but still believe." When the time comes, you will see
Jesus. If this is all a hoax and I still believe, what have I lost? If Jesus
is real and you chose not to accept him and his salvation, what have you
lost? A great deal my friend. My wife and I prey for you and all peoples
of
the earth who have not found the peace that comes with knowing Christ.
Johnny
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Strickland
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 30 Jan 94 07:00:19
--------
EID:c8c8 1c3e3800
David Strickland, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leip
zig
DS> Marty Leipzig Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
DS> About: +Origin:
GG> ... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC> ... +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> ... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML> ... +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for the
DS> DS Almighty Lard
ML> +Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony for
ML> Heyzeus!
DS> +Origin: Sissy Britches: Cowards for Crust.
ML> +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
DS> +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Taking over the World for His Piety.
ML> +Origin: STUFFING NETWORK: Turkeys for Jezuz!
DS> +Origin: SECOND LAW OF THERMO-DYNAMICS: Changing the Laws of the
DS> Universe for Stupidity.
ML> +Origin: SCOTCH NETWORK: Humic acid and loch water for Hayzeus!
ML> (Doc Goldberg's gonna get me for this one...)
DS> Can't wait to see the reply your gonna get for that one.
DS> +Origin: Social Theocracy: Removing your Rights for Jaaayyyssuuss.
+Origin: SYMBIONT NETWORK: Leeches and Hangers-on for Kryst.
... The wages of sin are death. Pat Robertson's are $6E+06/year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The deathcult always rings twice
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:57:36
--------
EID:8f63 1c3e5720
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
ML> ... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
MG> OK...you win.
I've got a million of 'em...
MG> ...Fundies: Litterbugs on the Information Superhighway.
Or...
... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information Superhighway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Life's Meaning
Date: 30 Jan 94 08:32:03
--------
EID:658e 1c3e4400
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> SB> You convince me of nothing.
ML> Well, if you can't be swayed by the facts; there is nothing
ML> that will penetrate that shield of dogma induced ignorance.
SB> You have shown me no facts.
Unfortunately, you either cannot or will not recognize a fact
even if it came up to you, shook your hand and pissed all over
your shoes.
SB> þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ In Jesus' name we shall be wrong
Sounds about right.
... "Dave, my mind. It's going. Hey! Let me tell you about Jesus."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Mythology
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:58:14
--------
EID:8975 1c3e5740
Steve Rose, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:J.J. Hitt
SR> Hello J.J.!
JJH> Street corners I can deal with. I find street evangelism more
JJH> entertaining than I find it a nuisance.
SR> Aren't those pin-heads a laugh riot!?? :D
SR> I love it when someone gets behind them and crouches down. Then you
SR> simply push forward a bit and...
I like to walk by them murmuring "Hail Satan...Hail Satan..."
JJH> And answering the door without your pants on will take care of the
JJH> door-to-door types.
SR> Also holding a bottle of half-empty gun oil in one's hands...looking
SR> mildly annoyed...adds to the effect and the laughs! :)
This happened last night...I was relaxing with my usual adult
beverage, watching something or other from Russia via satellite
when the doorbell rings (at 8:30 pm, no less). I answer the
door holding a brace of mastiffs (each one tipping in at over
100 kilos), to be greeted, however briefly, by a whole herd of
Jehovah's Witlesses.
"Watch out! They hate proselytizers! I don't know how long I
can hold 'em!"
"Grrrrr.....Woof!".
Always good for a chuckle...
... Nine out of ten mastiffs prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 30 Jan 94 09:15:52
--------
EID:e697 1c3e49e0
Don Martin, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- God
DM> Strikes L.A. -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 08:48:
ML> not a small amount of hot volcanic gasses. All of a sudden, the
ML> surface broke into individual platelets and started to convect
ML> (just like the bigger continental plates). We all bid a hasty
ML> retreat to the crater rim just in time to see a new $200,000
ML> coring rig slowly being subducted....
ML> The lava fountaining that evening was most impressive.
DM> You guys do get to have all the fun.
Yep. Any business where explosives are an integral part of the
day has to be fun.
DM> I have always wanted to see
DM> an eruption first hand (the lava sort, thankyouverymuch, and not the
DM> Mt. St. Helens sort).
I was in one of the first groups to be allowed into the St. Helen's
area after the May, '80 blast. One of our profs was a
distinguished vulcanologist; he got the invite, needed
pack-mules (a.k.a. grad students) and off we went. Since I was
also PADI certified, I got the dubious honor of doing some
underwater photography in what remained of Spirit Lake. Nothing more
fun than SCUBA diving (divers weights and all...) in water chock full
of busted trees and volcanic ash.
... Hi, Mr. Rex! I'm Barney! I love you! You love m<<>>
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER WITH BRAINLESS IGNORANTS?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:27:19
--------
EID:d220 1c415360
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Martin
Gold
berg
JM> Dear Marty
I'm the "Marty" in this echo. The other Doctor hereabouts
prefers the appellation "Martin".
JM> I cannot scientifically prove to you that God exists.
At least you admit defeat.
JM> Even
JM> Thomas saw and talked with Jesus and he still doubted that he was the
JM> son of God and that he had risen from the grave. He believed only after
JM> Jesus appeared to him and Thomas was able to touch him.
Ah, yes. Doubting Thomas. The original skeptic. A patron saint
of science if science had any need of patron saints.
JM> Jesus told us
JM> "blessed are those who have not seen, but still believe."
He also blessed just about everyone with a vested interest in
maintaining the status quo. What Jesus failed to realize is that
the poor are part of the problem...
JM> When the time
JM> comes, you will see Jesus.
Wrong. If you are referring to death, all one will see is a
body rapidly returning to the ambient temperature of its
surrounding environment.
JM> If this is all a hoax and I still believe,
JM> what have I lost? If Jesus is real and you chose not to accept him and
JM> his salvation, what have you lost? A great deal my friend.
Pascal's Wager, circa 1994. Listen, Bubba, what if YOU picked
the wrong horse in this supernatural trifecta? What if the
Mormon's nailed it on the nose? How about the Muslims? Or how
about all the atheists out there who don't bet on illusions
and rather invest in reality?
Hmmmm?
JM> My wife and
JM> I prey for you
Somehow, I don't think this is a typo...
JM> and all peoples of the earth who have not found the
JM> peace that comes with knowing Christ.
We don't pray for you, Johnny. We can only hope that someday
some small fact can penetrate that shield of dogma-induced
benightedness and let you celebrate the substantiality of life
in the here and now instead of wasting it preparing it for some
apparent afterworld.
... Your lack of comprehension may tend to make you lax in worldly ways.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Pluto? Far out, man. Orbital, even.
Date: 01 Feb 94 06:30:44
--------
EID:88ad 1c4133c0
Fredric Rice, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
FR> #include Dan Lafferty
DL> Have you ever visited or even seen Pluto...
FR>
And beyond...
DL> Then how do you KNOW it exists?
ml> By something with which you are totally unfamiliar: science.
ml> Celestial mechanics, physics and astronomy, to name but a few.
FR> Perterbation theory (not to be confused with masturbation theory.)
FR> Masturbations of, er, I ment perterbations of Neptune and Uranus gave
FR> observers a reason to suspect another fairly massive body. Dan
FR> suspects that it was a relevation sent by juh-HEEEE-Zeus! no doubt.
Perterbation theory really pisses me off. It irritates me. Damn it!
Great...now I'm all perturbed.....
HEY! It works!
DL> All those pictures might just be a fabrication of the
DL> scientific community for the sake of recieving grants \
DL> that they might keep their jobs.
FR> Surely he doesn't actually hold this belief!
He wrote the damn thing. Unless he was typing in tongues...
ml> Then again, they might not. Why is it that you fundies will so
ml> readily accept something so non-evidenced as some sort of
ml> supernatural being(s), yet so readily disregard cold, hard
ml> scientific fact?
FR> Surely you don't expect a rational answer!
Like the last time I took a certain well-heeled girl named
Hope out to lunch, and she again grabbed the check: Hope
Springs Eternal.
ml> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
FR> Certainly it can easilly sneek upon the unsuspecting.
THERE! LOOK BEHIND YOU! <<>>
... Be suspicious of all native-born Esperanto speakers.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: William Stone
Sub: WHY DO WE BOTHER WITH THESE MORONIC FUNDIES?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:15:20
--------
EID:0798 1c4151e0
William Stone, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Johnny
Mckinn
ey
JM> I love you too, Marty
WS> Johnny,
WS> I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are
WS> influenced by reprobate minds.
We "hear" him just fine (actually, nothing here is "heard", but
rather read...accuracy counts, you know). It's just that we are
so busy laughing at him and his fundy stormtroopers, like
you, that it only appears that we are ignoring him.
WS> They know nothing of the giving love of
WS> Jesus as he hanged on the cross,
Blood! Death! Depravation! Welcome to Christianity 101.
WS> nor do they understand the deep peace
WS> and satisfaction from the substitution of faith for their so-called
WS> "scientific proof".
You must be so eternally blissed to give up your life and
reality for some baseless illusion; after all it relieves you
of the painful process of having to think.
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
WS> when we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them and
WS> their abominations.
Blood! Death! Mayhem! Welcome to Christianity 102.
WS> May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail
WS> in pain as the burning fires of hell consume their flesh.
And you bozos wonder why we take you so to task.
"Peace and Love." Bullshit.
A pox upon you and your deathcult.
WS> I only wish
WS> I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
You were born a few years too late, Billzo. Torqemada and you
would have been the best of buddies. Death, dismemberment and
torture all in Christ's name. Funny how the more times change,
the more things remain the same; especially in static and
stagnant doctrines of demise.
WS> Yours in Christ,
WS> William Stone
You people are the best argument for atheism that has ever been
devised.
... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information Superhighway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 01 Feb 94 07:27:14
--------
EID:e864 1c413b60
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
DC>>>> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>>>> Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>>> +Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away
ML>>> for Jeeeeeesus!
MG>>> +Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
ML>> +Origin: Ultraviolent Network: Gunning down doctors for
ML>> Jesus.
MG>> +Origin:Guilt Network! Jewish Mothers for Jesus and Chicken
MG>> Soup.
ML> +Origin: Goy Network!: Putzes and schlemiels for Jesus!
MG> +Origin: STAPH NETWORK! Drizzeling Shits for Jesus.
+Origin: STREP NETWORK! Screaming 'til our throats bleed for Jeesus!
... Varicose veins: blood vessels extremely near each other.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fear And Loathing...Preparations for the next life.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:28:28
--------
EID:9dcd 1c415380
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Rice
FR>sb> So you are saying that you know my Christian friends
FR>sb> better than I do and you know for a fact that they
FR>sb> live in fear? Thats quite the claim!
FR>In fact I understand what motivates you better than you do.
SB> What makes you think that?
Fred has made a study of "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and
the Madness of Crowds".
... IMPIETY: MY irreverence toward your deity.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: A quick geology lesson.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:30:07
--------
EID:b122 1c4153c0
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Larry Sites
SB> þ WinQwk 2.0b#1175 þ You're the solid rock on which I stand
Solid rock, when exposed to the elements, tend to weather and erode.
Strange how beliefs do the same when exposed to logic and reason.
... The FREE GIFT of God costs just too damn much.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: Lawyers and other assorted bottom dwellers.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:16:28
--------
EID:9386 1c415200
Don Martin, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Richard Thorneyc
roft
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Richard Thorneycroft shared a conception
DM> -- Santa and eight flying re -- with Wayne Michaels on 26 Jan 94
DM> 12:54:
RT> that _there is NO evidence_? Their sworn testimony is evidence.
DM> Evidence in a court of law, yes. But scientific evidence does
DM> not accept anecdote, and around here scientists and not lawyers are
DM> the role models.
Where, indeed, other than in brothels and cheap motels, would lawyers
ever be considered role models?
... How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? Cut the rope.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY THEY DON'T BOTHER WITH SUPERSTITIONS.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:17:33
--------
EID:e4d6 1c415220
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:William
Sto
ne
JM> I totally agree with you, brother. As Jesus told his discipiles
JM> when they preach the good news and they reject it for them to knock
JM> the dust off their shoes as they leave.
JM> My shoes are dusted.
JM> Johnny
Just don't let that doorknob impale you in the ass on your
scurrying way out.
... Everyone stopping by with unsought advice will see your mistake.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Starwyn
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Tear a new one.....
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:52:00
--------
EID:23f8 1c417680
* Replying to a message originally to Fredric Rice on 01-31-94
RT>Exactamungo, that's why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's
RT>your point?
RT>Exactamungo, that is why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's
RT>your point?
RT>Bla bla bla, why not just let Hector answer, I usually reply,
RT>you can read it.
RT>Gotcha wondering eh?
RT>You pompous twit and I suppose you will _enlighten_ me as to the
RT>true meaning of TEAR A NEW ONE.
RT>Stop trying to be so brilliant. Hector used the word _lunatic_,
RT>get it?
RT>What is YOUR point? What IS your point? What is your POINT?
RT>Don't go away mad, just go away.
Whatever drugs you're currently taking, would they help my back pain? You
see
m pretty blasted on whatever it is...
Good luck.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: John Bobbit Hates To Be Cut Off In Traffic! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Crusades, et all
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:47:10
--------
EID:10ca 06678672
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b0
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
JF>Who says the crusades were "Christian"? I feel they were a horrible
JF>tragedy. Why would Christians need to conquer Jerusalem? Jesus said
his
JF>kingdom was not of this world. Christianity has no Mecca, no physical
JF>location on earth to "defend or exalt".
From the America OnLine encyclepida:
As religion touched nearly every facet of medieval life, people of all
classes journeyed to shrines, or places of religious interest. The hallowed
place might be the grave of a martyr, or a church that sheltered the relics
of a saint. These journeys were called pilgrimages. Travel was hard, but
discomfort was even welcomed as a kind of penance. The pilgrim who could
not
afford a horse plodded on foot, aided by a staff. The typical pilgrim garb
was a cloak, girdled by a cord, and a brimmed felt hat.
Every country had its favorite shrines, but the great shrine for all
Christians was the Holy City, Jerusalem. Even though the Holy Land had been
held by the Arabs for centuries, Christian pilgrims had been unmolested.
When the Holy Land fell to the _eljuk Turks in the 11th century, they
persecuted pilgrims.
Christian Europe then vowed to win the Holy Land from the Turk "infidels."
Pope Urban II declared in 1095, "God wills it. Christ Himself will be your
leader when you fight for Jerusalem." On that command he sent forth Europe
to fight a series of religious wars called the Crusades.
From my own research:
Prior to the 1st crusade, the Roman Empire was divided into 2 christian
areas, roughly France/Germany/Spain/Italy headed by Pope Urban II and the
Byzantine Empire, an area around Constantinople under Alexius. (if I
remember correctly, the 2 divisions of christianity came about over a petty
dispute about if it was ok or not to have icons in church.) "A great
offensive against the Moors was still being waged by the Christian princes
of Spain, and the church had aided enlistment for the holy cause by an
offer of special indulgence-the promise to the recruit that whatever
penance he had accumulated would be wholly or largely remitted. Under a
similar blessing the conquest of Sicily was being pushed" page 228 of
Stephenson's _Mediaeval History_. The rest of Europe was in conflict with
the various kings trying to expand/maintain power.
In 1095 Urban went to France where he held council of clergy and nobility
at Clermont. "There Urban, a Frenchman speaking in the vernacular to a
French audience, delivered his epoch-making appeal. The Turks, he reminded
his hearers, had but recently, after almost destroying the Byzantine
Empire, seized the holy places in Palestine. What a nobile work it would
be to rescue the Lord's sepulcher from their foul hands! And who should
assume this most sacred obligation if not the Franks-a people long
distingused for purity of faith, and a people famed beyond all others for
prowess in arms? Here, crowded in by sea and mountain, they inhabited a
country that hardly produced enough food to support them; there, on the
contrary, lay the Promised Land of Israel, 'flowing with milk and honey.'
Let them cease from their murderous wars and dissensions. Let them rather
join in one blessed enterprise, to wrest from the infidel the lands
defiled by his presence, knowing that God would grant them not merely a
rich earthly reward but also imperishable glory in the kingdom of heaven.
So Urban concluded, and the entire assemblage, we are told, shouted as
with one voice, 'Dieu le veut-God wills it!'" page 229 Ibid.
Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us", Jews
in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes and
hacked to death or burned alive.
"Every crusader, together with his family and all his possessions, was
brought under the protection of the pope and, by a plenary indulgence, he
was assured of immediate entrance into paradise if he died in the course
of the war". "Crowds of ill-armed persons, without adequate funds or
competent leadership, started on a mad pilgrimage... the majority on
rashly advancing into Asia Minor, were killed by the Turks". page 230
Ibid.
The organized army was commanded by the French, including Hugh, count of
Vermandois; Robert, duke of Normandy and Stephen, count of Blois, the last
2 representing the king of England. Also Robert, count of Flanders. The
neighboring house of Boulogne sent Eustace, Baldwin and Godfrey, who had
been appointed by Henry IV to the undesirable duchy of Lower Lorraine.
Also Raymond, count of Toulouse, Bohemund, son of Robert Guiscard.
Bohemund was unquestionably the best general. Merchant shipowners of Genoa
and Pisa helped. They left in 1096 by various routes to converge on
Constantinople where Alexius had promised to furnish money, provisions and
more troops. Alexius had problems enrolling chiefs for his service. He
would not provide for futher progress untill they did homage to him for
whatever lands conqured.
In June 1097, Nicaea fell and was given to Alexius who then diverted his
forces to the Aegean coast leaving the crusaders to go on toward the holy
land. Bohemund's nephew Tancred took Tarsus while Balwin took Edessa. The
rest spent the winter outside the walls of Antioch waiting support from
Alexius who along with deserters had turned back. An Italian fleet arrived
with supplies and siege engines in spring 1098. Antioch surrendered on
June 3 to the generalship and diplomacy of Bohemund 5 days before a Turk
relief force arrived. Bohemund lead in driving them off also. Bohemund
defied emperor Alexius who had abandoned them and took title to Antioch.
Pope Urban did not interven on Alexius behalf. (No big surprize - grin)
Italian ships directly supplied the popes forces.
"The battle also precipitated a bitter quarrel between Bohemund and
Raymond of Toulouse, who had himself been eager to rule at Antioch and who
now, in the face of the northern French party, espoused the cause of
Alexius.Besides, the southern French attributed the victory, not to the
generalship of Bohemund, but to the power of a sacred relic-the lance
which had pierced the side of the crucified Christ and which, as the
result of a vision, had recently been discovered by Peter Bartholomew, a
follower of Raymond. The Normans, of course, scoffed at this alleged
miracle, intimating that their rival had simply uncovered what they had
already buried. Even after the host had resumed its march on Jerusalem,
dissension still raged. At last, during a halt on the coast, Peter
Bartholomew agreed to undergo ordeal by fire to prove the truth of his
statements. Clad only in a shirt and bearing the Holy Lance, he actually
walked into a heap of fiercely blazing olive branches and emerged on the
other side. Twelve days later he died, in consequence, said his friends,
of excited handling by the crowd; in consequence, said his enemies, of
natural burning by the fire. So the dispute continued as before-a
remarkable commentary on the mixture of religion and politics that
characterized the whole crusade". page 232-3 Ibid. Maybe the ICR, todays
creationists and you would be willing to "prove" the truth of your
statements in the above manner? (grin)
On July 15, 1099 Jerusalem fell after 6 weeks assualt. One week later,
Godfrey who led the final assault and who had remained somewhat aloof from
the previous wrangling was proclaimed Defender of the Holy Sepulcher.
Urban died in Rome on July 29, 1099. Godfrey died on July 18, 1100 and his
brother Baldwin who, on moving from Edessa, was formally crowned as king
on Christmas Day, 1100.
The ecstatic cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote about the conquest of
Jerusalem, "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees
and
even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgement of God."
In summary, it was Pope Urban, head of the christian church, that "lead"
the 1st crusade, not Godfrey of Lorraine of the house of Bologne aka de
Bouillon, who merely was in the right place when Jerusalem fell. Leaders
in the field were nobility that had little chance of rulling in their
native country. Troops were induced to go via material *and* special
spiritual rewards. After the failure of the eastern christian emperor
Alexius to live up to his end of the bargin, leaders in the field set the
presedent for claiming kingship.
As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Chrusade,
"The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ
himself is glorified."
In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in
1191, he ordered 3,000 captives - many of them women and children - taken
outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for
swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no
consequence.
Throughout Europe, beginning in the 1100s, tales spread that Jews were
abducting christian children and killing them for blood rituals. Hundreds
of massacres stemmed from this "blood libel". After the Fourth Lateran
Council in 1215 proclaimed the doctrine of transubstantiation: that the
host wafer miraculously turns into the body of Jesus, rumors soon spread
that Jews were stealing and crucifying the wafers. Reports said that the
pierced host actually bled. In 1243 in Belitz, Germany, Jews were burned
at the stake for this. To avenge the tortured host, the German knight
Rindfliesch lead a brigade in 1298 that exterminated 146 defenseless
Jewish *communities* in six months. Such killings continued into the
1800s.
Don't forget the persecution of Albigensian heretics starting in the 1200s
that lead to the Inquistion which shifted to focus on witchcraft in the
1400s. What about the "Protestant Inquisition" started by John Calvin in
the 1500s leading to Oliver Cromwell being deemed a *moderate* in
the 1650s because he massacred *only* Catholics and Anglicans, not other
Protestants?
What about that Thirty Years War between Protestants and Catholics, that
involved Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France, and
Italy? One estimate is that Germany's population dropped from 18 to 4
Million.
Contrary to Gods will, christianity has repetedely resorted to killing
others if they refuse to be "saved". If I were the devil, I could think
of
no better way to seperate people from God that to get them to break his
commandment "thou shall not kill" by killing in Gods name! How else could
so
many people be mislead if the organized christian religions are not the
work
of the devil? Now what makes you think your version/interpertation of
"christianity" is any better?
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Justification by faith
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:12:19
--------
EID:10ca 06678673
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b3
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
JC>Rom 3:10 "as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous,
LS> BUNK! Paul is ADDING his personal interpertation and in so doing is
LS> contridicting the clear message of the bible. Not only is Noah note
LS> as being rightious:
RT>Hi Larry, Paul prefaces his statement with _as it is written_ a ref.
to
RT>the O.T.. The Thompson Chain gives Ps.14 as a cross ref.
RT>A Psalm of David ...V1 reads
RT>The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
RT>V7 is the good part!
RT>Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!
RT>when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people,(restoration)
RT>Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
So what is your point? Aren't you merely CONFIRMING my point that Paul is
twisting scripture to his own ends? If a fool says there is no god or
righteous, does that make it true? Paul attempts to show that only Jesus
is
righteous, yet Genesis clearly says that Noah was righteous. Which one is
wrong, Genesis or Paul? Since they can't both be right, your holy babble
is
only partialy true, at best. How do you know that what you consider the
"good parts" are true, let alone mean what you interpert them to?
Peace, Larry
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From: Larry Sites
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:27:38
--------
EID:10ca 06678674
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b4
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
FR> You are taught that fags are 'abominations.' You justify
FR> this hatred by stating that you don't hate the individuals
FR> but homosexual acts -- which hets also engage in.
DL>??? I have no idea what you are talking about. "Hets" don't engage in
DL>"homo" acts. Homo acts are sex with like sex in any form.
Then it is ok for a male to analy penetrate a female? Do you have a bible
quote to that effect?
Peace, Larry
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:38:39
--------
EID:5f47 1c3e8cc0
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4506
PID: CNet 3.0
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the current
RB> pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the holocaust.
SR> Yeah...some story about him in his young days being told in effect,
to
SR> 'Pull
SR> this lever'...and he thought he was just turning on the lawn sprinklers.
SR> Little did he know... :)
Wrong answer... as another responded, the rumor has it that he was involved
in
the production of the gas, and knew what it was going for. This is supposedl
y part of the reason George Bush asked people to forgive the Nazi war criminal
s, because he was trying to make way for further involvement between America
a
nd the Vatican.
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:55:48
--------
EID:2abd 1c3e8ee0
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4909
PID: CNet 3.0
rb> "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of America, and
to
rb> the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible,
rb> with Liberty and justice for all." -- This is something to fight for!!!
FR> Read the original pledge, Rob, prior to 1950, and you'll notice that
you
FR> have been lied to badly. You will notice that the pledge never had
the
FR> phrase "one nation under god" in it.
It is typical that you would find something to rag on rather than stay on
topi
c and acknowledge that I support your right to believe what you wish, as
appos
e to the person whom I wrote that to. No, you couldn't possibly take the
time
to be supportive of something positive, you would rather continue to bitch
ab
out everything and anything that threatens you. You say that I need to
relax
and take a pill. I suggest you do the same, for, if you did, you could
have f
elt comfortable staying on topic and not going off on a tangent just to
get a
kick.
As for the statement "one nation under God", since it wasn't even the issue
at
hand, but rather just something I felt led to 'highlight', I shouldn't give
y
ou any response, but your high and mighty attitude and self assurance is
lacki
ng in poise and tact. For your assuption that I have no knowledge of the
hist
orical version of the above, or couldn't possibly admit it if I did is a
bunch
of propagandic redoric that you are so good at spewing. I quoted the version
I like, and that I figured most would know. Live with that!
And in closing, I repeat, "and Liberty and Justice for all". That goes
for yo
u as well as me! So start respecting others RIGHT to belive what they wish,
a
nd at least have the guts to support my supporting your rights! Religious
Lib
erty is a principle that is fundamental to this nation. Take Care!
Rob
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From: Rob Bamford
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 30 Jan 94 18:02:43
--------
EID:1b15 1c3e9040
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4aa8
PID: CNet 3.0
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the
RB> current pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the
RB> holocaust. I will have to dig up the info I had on this!!
DR> The claim is that Pope JPII helped manufacture some of the gas used
DR> in the Nazi Germany extermination camps. [...]
This is the information I heard. And while I do not say it is true, I don't
a
ssume your accuracy in saying its not also! I heard it from a source quite
se
perate from Chick Publications. It would be interesting to know for sure
all the details, if there are any, to this rumor. Take Care!
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: What use...
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:15:46
--------
EID:10ca 066234a2
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4cb309
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
...is religion to the living? By now, most of you will have seen enough
of
my posts to know that I hold christianity and particularly fundamentalists
and creationists, in the highest contempt, and am able to justify it with
bible quotes and historical evidence. Yet, I hold the teachings of Jesus
in
the highest reguard and to the best of my ability try to live my life
according to his directives.
I am now interested in discussing the value of religion in the life of the
living, with both religionists and non-religionists. In this thread, I am
specifically NOT interested in discussing an afterlife or any effects
thereon due to ones choices in this life. There is just as much evidence,
if
not more, that people reincarnate into physical beings as there is that
they
go to an eternal heaven or hell. In any case, I believe that one of, if
not
the main/only, reasons for Jesus' comming was to teach how to live in this
life. In fact, he said as much when asked about the nature of afterlife:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.
Now then, of what use or value is any religion to the living? If we set
aside the afterlife considerations for the moment, then we also eliminate
the peace of mind and/or assurance that one will exist in an acceptable
manner after this life. What then is left for this life? Is it not the goal
of most living to live a life of life, liberty and the pursut of happyness
free from unreasonable fear of not achieving these goals? Does not every
currently active religion teach that the achievement of these goals is
dependant upon treating others the same way one would hope to be treated?
Haven't all religions that required the taking of others lives to increase
ones own odds of achievement, fallen of their own weight? Isn't the reason
because people recognize that to maximunize their odds of achievement, they
must also maximunize that of others? Otherwise if it is ok for one to take
from others, mightn't it also be just as ok for others to take away?
Isn't the real value of a religion in the benefit it provides by teaching
how to live? Don't people that learn how to treat others well, live a better
life because of it? Isn't this what Jesus was teaching?
Peace, Larry
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From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: ICR speaks in San Diego
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:48:34
--------
EID:10ca 066234a3
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4cb30a
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
Anyone in the San Diego area might wish to listen to a creationist speak
in
person:
The Institute for Creation Research is sponsoring a talk by Kent Hovind,
popular Creation Evangelist, titled "Dinosaurs, Geologic Ages, and the
Christian" at the New Campus of Horizon Fellowship Church, 3401 Claremont
Drive, San Diego, CA, phone 619-277-4991 at 7PM Friday, February 25, 1994.
Their flyer says that Dr. Hovind is widely acclaimed as a speaker on
creationism in the south and east (over 550 messages per year), but this
is
his first appearance in San Diego. The lecture is free and ICR books and
tapes will be available for purchase.
If you go, be sure to look at the "Brainwashed?" booketlet by Gish. It cost
25 cents and is listed in their publications list under "Scientific Case
for
Creation" as scientific proof for creation. Yet on page 21 it still claims
men and dinos lived together even though the ICR has quietly dropped this
claim.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Fizgig
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:17:00
--------
EID:732c 1c3faa20
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
I beg your pardon, have I stumbled into the Flame area?
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From: Fizgig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 31 Jan 94 22:17:00
--------
EID:a1dc 1c3fb220
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jerry Faust dated 01-29-94 ***
> You could fool me. What about his own personal destruction of Sodom
> and Gomorrah? What about the times he told the Jews to go kill all
> the
> men and married women in certain places, take all the virgins
> captive,
> and make slaves of them and all the male children? Sounds like
> violence to infants to me, when you kill their mothers and fathers,
> rape their older sisters, and make salves of them.
>
>
I understand, but one side note: The Jewish law had very strict rules about
how to treat slaves. They had to be treated as people, not property, rape
wa
s STRICTLY forbidden, and every 50 years all slaves were set free. That
is a
few of the rules. Oh, and the rule about setting the slaves free had to
do w
ith the year of Jubilee. The slaves didn't have to stay slaves for the
whole
fifty, if you became a slave 5-10 years before the year of Jubilee, that
was
all the time you had.
As I said, I understand your being upset, I just didn't want you to think
the
Isrealites were complete barbarians. Many slaves elected to stay with there
masters (not owners) after there time was up. It was also very leagal to
bu
y one's freedom, even slaves were required to have some kind of living wage.
But that is only the law of the Torah, Im not about to say that it was always
followed (if youll pardon the word) religiously.
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From: Fizgig
To: Peter Vanderkam
Sub: Sequence of Gospels
Date: 31 Jan 94 22:57:00
--------
EID:ef2a 1c3fb720
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> MB> 2. Where do Q and Thomas fit into this order?
>
> LS> Q as I understand it is the lost predecessor to Matt/Mark. In
> that
> LS> respect, it should be used to identify the thelogical
> evolution/slant
> LS> of Matt/Mark......
>
> Q stands for the German word Quelle which means Source. As was
> mentioned
> above here by LS, tradition has it that it was one of the main
> sources
> on which the three synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are
> based.
The Quelle Gospel is a *theoretical* sorce that contains collections of
sayin
gs from the Gospels and is said to be the sorce from which all but John
drew.
There has been, however, no discovery of any such ancient text to my knowle
dge. Though it may well exist, it is only supposed.
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> it is accepted that *none* were actual disciples of Jesus. But again,
> there are those who argue that possibly Matthew, and maybe even John
> were contemporaries of Jesus. (see my series on "Who wrote the
It has been accepted by quite a few bu certainly not all. In addition most
t
hat agree on this point are highly anti-supernaturalist. It has traditionaly
been accepted that the Gospels of Mathew and John were those of the desciple
s listed in the 4 Gospels. Also, the book of Mark was traditionaly accepted
as being the work of Peter's amanuensis.
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> LS> Thomas is an odd one, all that stuff about making female
> LS> male and 2 into one. I just wish I had a way of determining
> what the
> LS> meaning was to the writer/reader back then.
> Thomas was discarded for the longest time, but has recently
> re-surfaced
> and is getting more and more attention from the Biblcal scholars. It
> contains "Sayings by Jesus", and is highly Gnostic in outlook. This
> means that it was rather closely connected to the mystery religions
> of
> that time.
As to the Gospel of Thomas, its gnostic content is the chef reason the source
was not cannonized. It was determined to be heritical. The attention
it is
getting from Biblical scholars is quite naturaly from the more gnostic
schol
ars. The Orthodox church still views gnosticism as being heritical.
Now, that being said, PLEASE don't get the idea that Im looking for a fight!
I don't want to appear to challenge anyone to a debate but I did think that
t
here was some information being left out here. Traditional orthodoxy may
not
be the most popular veiwpoint these days but I didn't want anyone to think
it
had died. We are still kicking around out there.
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From: Tim Epstein
To: All
Sub: Life, Death and Religion.
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:03:00
--------
EID:7429 1c3fa060
MSGID: 3:635/526.2 0f931724
G'day.
Though I am very much an Atheist, I have a broad range of friends in terms
of
religious beliefs. One in particular is a "born again" who considers himself
t
o be a part time missionary. I respect the charitable work he does, especially
with "street kids", though I cannot condone the religious indoctrination
that
comes with the help. The following story is an example of the danger that
lur
ks behind religion taken to an extreme.
My friend had spent a lot of time with a 15 year old street kid, who eventuall
y got a good job and moved in with my friend as a housemate. I got to know
the
kid pretty well, and was glad that he had straightened out very well, but
sho
ok my head at the religious conversion that was the price he unwittingly
paid.
A few months later, I visited my friend and we chatted about cars, computers,
and other things for quite a while, when my friend off-handedly mentioned
that
"by the way, (the kid) died a couple of days ago."
I was shocked as the kid didn't touch drugs or have any other life threatening
habits, and upset too, as I had come to know him pretty well by then. I
could
n't beleive that my friend
showed no signs of any distress at all, and mentioned the death in the same
ma
nner as last week's football scores.
It turned out that the kid had died from a severe asthma attack. My friend
was
there at the time, and being a qualified paramedic kept the kid breathing
whi
le he called an ambulance. My friend had to do CPR in the ambulance on the
way
to hospital, as the ambulance crew was down one member. In the end, he couldn
't be revived.
Again, my friend told me of these events in a casual manner. I found it
hard t
o believe that he wasn't emotionally affected, given his close involvement
whi
lst the kid was dying. When I diplomatically questioned him about this,
he exp
lained that he felt the kid was lucky because he had gone to heaven, whilst
my
friend was still here putting up with life. He further admitted that he
was a
ctually envious that the kid had gone to heaven so early.
At this stage, I was trying to accept this attitude in terms of the strenth
of
my friend's religion. However, he completely blew me away a few minutes
later
after he told me he had thought the kid would pull through. He admitted
that
if he had thought the kid was going to die, he wouldn't have tried to resussit
ate him! He talked about "God's will", and not wanting to blow the kid's
chanc
e of going to heaven etc.
I was horrified, not only at this bizarre relevation that appeared logical
to
him, but at the whole attitude to life that my friend posseses. The concept
of
religion as being a nice way to believe that something nice and usefull
can h
appen to us after death had been taken to the extreme that life itself is
just
something we have to put up with until death, which is what we should all
be
looking forward to as soon as possible without blowing our chances at heaven
b
y suiciding!
Afterwards, I realised my friend was still on a "high" from the death of
the k
id. He discussed it in exactly the same way as you would a friend who has
just
won a few million in the lottery and has gone off travelling around the
world
enjoying themselves. The kid's fatal asthma attack was literally considered
t
o be his lucky ticket outta here.
Regards,
Tim
--- FMail 0.94
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Pope
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:56:28
--------
EID:98eb 1c3f8700
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4d8ca3
PID: CNet 3.0
Hi Steve...
SB> Never heard of that. If you have evidence, I would like to see it.
I got the information out of a book called "Behold a Pale Horse".
I was also told that Chick Publications, another source, has also stated
the s
ame claims. As far as first hand proof goes, I don't have any to show.
It is
a rumor in my book, and a very interesting one at that!
Also, do you have an InterNet E-Mail address? I can't send FidoNet Mail,
but
would like to interact through InterNet if you do have an address for it.
Take Care!
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: David Strickland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:20:25
--------
EID:d2c8 1c3f8a80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d4e951e
Fredric Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: Paluxy Revisited...
ds> ... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
FR> Hey! That one is mine from two years ago! I had forgotten
FR> it.
Well 'tis mine now!
David
!*! An atheist is but a mad, ridiculous derider of piety, but a hypocrite
makes a sober jest of god and religion; he finds it easier to be upon
his knees than to rise to a good action. - Alexander Pope
Quoter v1.3
... Bend the facts to fit the conclusion. It's easier that way.
---
þ TLX v3.30 þ
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From: Rob Vanderkam
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 01 Feb 94 00:20:00
--------
EID:5914 1c410280
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 2d4de680
On 01-29-94 Marilyn Burge wrote to Rob Vanderkam...
> DR> injury to their workers! Bull-f-shit! It is MONEY they care
> MB> And you are destroying property that doesn't belong to you in
> MB> order to make a political point. That is immoral.
> RV> So what gives the gov't the right to destroy the forests today?
> RV> Could it not be said that these forests belong to the future and
> If they were in private ownership, there would be nothing anybody
> could do to prevent them from being clearcut by their owners. If
> they belonged to no one, anybody could come along and homestead the
> land that they are on then log them once ownership was established.
> The fact that they belong to everybody gives no one person or
> coroporation the right to cut them down.
Hmmm.... But they still get cut down. And the fact remains that
people caring doesn't get votes so economics drives the law. And
too often the law says the trees come down, usually flying in the
face of studies supporting conservation. Why? Because there is no
ABSOLUTE proof that our ecosystem is collapsing.
That argument has always been good enough to allow the destruction
of resources. That's why scientists are beginning to become more
politically active. They know that they will never come up with the
burden of proof so they say its time to go with 'close is good enough'.
So some people decide spiking is helpful. If it causes a loss of
revenue, then people will actually pretend that the loss was not
inevitable and that the spikers are ruining the economy, not them.
The sad ultimate fact is that there are too many people to be sustained
in this mode on these resources. I wonder if religion will become
more popular once academic labour is no longer supported. I am
suggesting that it is access to information that has allowed people
to face the truthabout how God is a myth. Otherwise no one would dare
dispute the possibility of it being real.
For those of us who have information and still claim there is a God,
well, it seems that they prefer not to look and see, or they don't
want to take responsibility for their lives, ... or can't. IMO
Regards,
Rob
___
* OFFLINE 1.56 * Circular Definition: see Circular Definition
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Gary Glunz
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:21:00
--------
EID:dd27 1c3f9aa0
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387B
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist. (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
I resent the hell out of that.
How dare you call me Jewish!
...asshole...
... "the devils from St. Louis..." -Ron Stringfellow
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Adam...
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:36:00
--------
EID:bbbb 1c3f9c80
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387C
SQ> How about we address your statement with another round of "Missouri
SQ> Show Me":
Sounds good to me ;-)
... Origin: Old Bastards, World Headquarters: St. Louis, MO.
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ASSHOLEANCE
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:04:00
--------
EID:1875 1c3fa080
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387D
JF> Hope you don't mind me dropping in on your conversation.
JF> ! Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing -
JM> Don't mind at all brother. I need help. Being attacked by others :)
If Jesus really was "god", he could've easily pulled out his nails,
got down of his cross, and went home.
All you have to do is configure youre settings to no longer download
this conference, and quit whining and playing martyr :-)
Growing numbers of people find the christian tendency to include
everybody in their suffering/death fantasies to be revolting.
... Instead of being born again, why not just grow up?
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From: Sunjester
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Steve'S Pr For Your R
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:53:02
--------
EID:eeea 1c3fa6a0
MSGID: 1:387/57.0 2d4db5fe
While faking an orgas..AAHHH...AAAHH, I overheard about Steve'S Pr For Your
R
Su> So female homosexuality is OK?
JM> Apparently... I don't see anything against it.
Yet another win for feminism, and those who accept double standards
as a way of life.
Su> I hope from this "Law" that you never masturbate.
JM> Why should it affect me... I'm not Jewish or Christian if you
JM> think it applies to them too.
Oops, gonna have to fix that AI routine that does my replys for me.
... No, *I* don't worship Eris. But my software does...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Christianity
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:58:00
--------
EID:5887 1c417740
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed51ec
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f0911c1
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
FR> My first guess would be that you have never read the
FR> classical Christian mythologies, Jerry. The one thing that
FR> believers in your deities do not do is love the not-believer
Hmm...
The Salvation Army provides aid to thousands of poor and homeless, regardless
of religious affiliation.
The Methodist Student Movement at my current college (University of Texas
at
San Antonio) is co-sponsoring a seminar entitled "Beyond Racism". Another
sp
onsor is the school's Office of Minority Affairs. This is in conjunction
wit
h Black history month, and is open to all.
German theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer was hanged for speaking out against
Adolf
Hitler.
Various Christian groups are providing disaster relief in Los Angeles.
One of my history books states that a Christian effort in the late nineteenth
century may have saved the lives of Native Americans who were being slaughte
red by the government and greedy Whites...
These are a few examples of Christian love...
FR> Isis/Jesus/spirit/Satan/Mary et al.
Why are Satan and Mary considered dieties? The Bible never ascribes ÏšÔg·bt¿
s»www»m§»|s»vI~'RwvI»IwvIo³c²Úû,,"Òvig›«b¿ªŸr§·RÙw¿rÛ¹´2'vw?k*P~sûv
›»-6"—ë¹]„o³@ëV›ýv/̼R,þ¼ºˆv¦ý/$'%˜rg3f³7ý³v–ßi…qk#ux(•ÏÐ
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: BBSing
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:10:00
--------
EID:4f11 1c417940
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed54be
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5336
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Thanks for the encouragement. Drop a note whenever you wish and i'll see
ya
on the echo...
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Continuing a message...
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:20:00
--------
EID:805c 1c417a80
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed572a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f0911c1
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
FR> When you try to include the better educated,
FR> critically-thinking into your indoctrination-motivated
FR> beliefs, you open yourself up to a great deal of, shall we
FR> say, "just deserts?" rather than if you had merely expressed
FR> your beliefs and managed to exclude those who manage to
FR> remain free.
FR> Fair warning; knowing that you're new here and all.
Actually, I'm not interested in indoctrination. I am not offended, angry,
et
c. if people disagree with my views. I enjoy discussion in this echo; I'm
no
t here to point a finger at anyone. I'm not a fundamentalist. I consider
m
yself an open-minded individual; I don't want to exclude anyone. In fact,
so
me of what has been said inthese discussions has encouraged me to o re-examin
e some historical facts, particularly about the crusades.
If I've made you feel excluded, I apologize. Stay in touch, we'll talk
some
more.
---
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: David Dahl
Sub: God DOOMit!
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:00:02
--------
EID:163b 1c418000
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881a
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First David Dahl Said: ]-----
> If it wasn't so funny, it'd be sad.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Heheheh....you summed up my opinion EXACTLY... :)
-dan-
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Mick Howland
Sub: Exorcism update
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:01:03
--------
EID:4d84 1c418020
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881b
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Mick Howland Said: ]-----
> Mr Vollmer said he believed his wife had been possessed by demons
> when
> she came under the control of a satanic cult as a three-year-old.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
This stuff just gets wackier and wackier...
-dan-
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:02:04
--------
EID:28ba 1c418040
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881c
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> I don't know how to respond to utter secular nonsense, Dan.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I'm not suprised.
-dan-
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Starwyn
Sub: Harvey Smith
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:03:05
--------
EID:a0e8 1c418060
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881d
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Starwyn Said: ]-----
> HS>My friend you got none of your off the wall exegetics from
> HS>Christianity. Any 10 year old in my congregation looks at your
> HS>bible quotes, and just laughs... You went so far to take things
> HS>out of context, and don't wish to admit that for 4,000 years the
> HS>pagans ruled the world, and made a mess out of it, and destroyed
> HS>10's of thousands of babies and perhaps millions, and hence you
> HS>want to be one of them who dash babies against the rocks and who
> HS>split open the bellies of all those who don't believe like you.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehhe...this guy is a joke...
Next crazed lunatic.
-dan-
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Don Martin
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:06:06
--------
EID:cba5 1c4180c0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881e
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Don Martin Said: ]-----
> It is not the "'em" that remains unfound, but any evidence
> whatsoever for any such beings at all. How does this universal state
=
> SELECTIVE disbelief? Ear filtration on your part?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, the message was in reply to a post where he said something to the effect
o
f atheists not disbelieving in gods, but rather the gods that are currently
wo
rshipped (Allah, God, Yahweh, etc).
It seems as if there is some dissention between the atheists...hmm...
:)
-dan-
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--------
From: Alan Hess
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Christianity
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:49:36
--------
EID:41bc 1c418e20
MSGID: 1:261/1000 3b2858c7
REPLY: 1:387/303 52eac6b8
In a missive of Jerry Faust (1:387/303)
writes to Fredric Rice:
JF> Most of the very early Christians were Jews, not caucasians.
You're a little mixed up here. Caucasian is a race, Judaism is a religion.
T
hose early Christians could have been Caucasian Jews, or non-Caucasian Jews,
d
epending on what race inhabited the Middle East at that time. *adh*
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Frederick Rice
Sub: Evidence and Plausability
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:18:24
--------
EID:03bc 1c3f6a4c
>I'm not entirely certain whether David is trying to be funny or
>insulting or whether he is just offering a statement of fact, Mike. He
>merely mentioned (correctly, in my opinion) that "sound reasoning" is
>not part of the methodology employed by Christians when pertaining to
>deity beliefs -- which you wished to discuss.
I thank you for your response. As I've said,I'm a Christian in my faith,
and
in my philosophy I'm an objectivist. My reasons for believing in God rest
up
on many pillars. I think that one of the best places to begin may be the
subj
ect of origins. By origins I mean the beginning of the universe. There
isn't
any theory I've read from anyone that explains in reasonable terms the
means
by which the universe came into being. Most theories center upon either
what
is called the "Big Bang", for lack of a better term, or the oscillating
univ
erse, with forms and variations of both. I believe that the evidence supports
the Big Bang theories. Within this central theory there are sub-theories,
ho
wever at this time I don't see the necessity of going into these. Now how
doe
s the Big Bang theory lend credence to the existence of God? Please follow.
The universe, if it began with the Big Bang, was at one time a singularity
of
sorts. It contained gravity exceeding by forces immeasurable anything even
s
tipulated by the smallest of Black Holes. With what is known about Black
Hole
s, nothing except perhaps minor QM radiation may escape it. The gravitational
pull exceeds the escape velocity of even light. Now at a point in time,
a v
ery precise and important point in time, this singularity exploded,(exploded
may be imprecise)and in a velocity that is universally constant, expanded.
Th
e energy required to escape the tremendous gravitational forces isn't there
u
nder any theory put forth that I've seen. From some theories I read, the
esti
mated energy density at 10-43 second was 10 to the 119 per cubic centimeter,
while the estimated gravity was over 10 to the 26 of earth. The equation
doe
sn't allow for the universe as we see it today.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Frederick Rice
Sub: Evidence & Plausability 2
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:19:32
--------
EID:c79f 1c3f6a70
Even if these figures are very imprecise, nothing observed anywhere could
pro
vide the energy necessary to overcome such gravitational forces. Now I
state
d that the point in time of the explosion was very important; here is why.
If
the Big Bang delayed even by a factor of 10 -57 from when it did explode,
it
would have collapsed into a mass incapable for anything natural to dissolve
it. Now we could say that this still doesn't mean that there is a God,
howev
er I believe that the evidence shows that only a God could have set into
moti
on what we see today,in the manner in which life could develope. Now lets
co
nsider the eternal universe theory. Entropy doesn't allow for matter to
be et
ernal. If you state that the universe is an open system, where is the evidenc
e? The evidence so far shows that we are in a closed system universe. If
we
are in a closed universe, then entropy and the laws of conservation demand
th
at in time the universe dies. I state that under all observable evidence,
not
conjecture, we are in a closed universe. A closed universe requires a
begi
nning. From this we arrive at God as the source of the beginning. Now,
I hop
e that this suffices as a beginning of dialogue, or a termination of discussi
on due to agreement. I hope for the former and doubt the latter.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Discussion
Date: 1 Feb 94 10:36:20
--------
EID:0b83 1c41548a
> MS> No, it isn't. However what would convince you that
> it wasn't?
>
> Moses did NOT write the first five books? John the
Well, according to the b est available sources Moses did pen the first 5
book
s of the Bible, and John did pen the books named after him. What is the
point
? I ask that knowing full well what you imply.
God Himself didn't take pen and paper and put His thoughts and message down
f
or us. He inspired men to put down on parchment what we today call the
Bible.
I take this as a point of faith, and it isn't, at least to me, a point
of de
bate. I don't take it blindly though, for I've researched the history of
the
bible and how it was put together.
The Bible itself convinced me that it is of a divine origin. Why, because
of
a theme that starts in Genesis and is completed in Revelation that hasn't
con
tradiction or evidence of human collusion.
If all you want to do is to argue that you believe differently, please save
y
ourself the trouble of responding. On this point I'm very firmly convinced,
a
nd all I can do is to give you the reasons, which would take an involved
disc
ussion, to attempt to let you see what I have seen.
Does the Bible stand up to scrutiny? Yes, and to answer in this post a
questi
on put to me by another, and perhaps yourself, many people in history have
se
t out to destroy the Bible, convinced that it was a "human" invention.
Not on
e has ever been able to refute it in a substantial manner. I know that
some b
elieve that they have found contradiction in it, and certainly some will
refu
se to accept the premise of miracles, but then again, the bible proposes
fait
h.
I hope that this answer explains my position on this. I think I know yours.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: No contradiction
Date: 1 Feb 94 10:49:52
--------
EID:0b83 1c41563a
>
> And on top of that, we still have no understanding of how
> he could have
> been the one to purchase Potter's Field at the same time
Have you ever purchased something FOR somebody? The chief priests took
the mo
ney that Judas threw back to them and purchased the Field of Akeldama in
Juda
s' name. This is evidenced in Matt. 27:6-10
There is no contradiction in this story, except and unless you consider
the r
elating by two individuals of the events from different perspectives as
a con
tradiction.
To Frederic Rice as well as yourself, you'll have to better than this if
you
wish to "prove" the scriptures as a human invention or a hoax.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: too many question marks?
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:32:42
--------
EID:bef1 1c3ea400
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4c1aa9
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Derek
Cla
yton:
RT> I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
RT> of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
RT> Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
RT> over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial
RT> _court_. If such a gathering had made a finding, showing CAUSE for
RT> deception resulting in an all encompassing delusion, I could understand
RT> their recommending all future evidence be treated as evidence of delusio
n.
RT> To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
RT> the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
No offense, but that's an intensely ignorant position. What happens when
this impartial court reviews the testimony of all the Christians in the
world
, and then all the non-Christians in the world? Last count I was aware
of, th
e non-Christians outnumber you two to one (by more, if you don't consider
some
self-proclaimed Christians to be Christians), and so by your own rules of
"BI
G NUMBERS WIN!", you lose. 2/3 of the world's population are not Christians.
And incidentally, if numbers proves the game, what about the days when th
e Christians numbered in the thousands? Or the hundreds? At what point
were
the numbers sufficient to you as evidence?
I'll give you a hint: never. Reality is not a popularity contest, and
w
hether 1 person or all people hold a position, that does not make the position
necessarily correct, or even lend the position any weight.
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: too many question marks?
Date: 30 Jan 94 19:55:36
--------
EID:c65a 1c3e9ee0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4c121f
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Derek
Cla
yton:
RT> I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
RT> of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
RT> Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
Life changes brought about by a god, or simply a belief in god?
DC>> Ancient Greeks were just as adamant in their belief that Zeus et. al.
DC>> were real. Were they right? Goths were sure that Odin et. al. were
DC>> real. Were they right?
RT> Are you suggesting they were wrong? Are you suggesting I am qualified
to
RT> _judge_ this matter? Are you suggesting you want to spend time on this
RT> topic? Are you suggesting I can figure out some kind of connection
betwe
en
RT> this and my topic?
Can't you figure out the connection? Egyptians were adamant that gods such
as
Osiris existed. Goths were positive that Odin existed. Now. christians
(amo
ng numerous other modern cults) are positive that God exists.
Logic tells is that they can't all be right. So, even IF one of these groups
is right, we know that personal testimony has been wrong much more often.
In
short, personal testimony is not very reliable.
In defense of personal testimony for the existence of god, you may show
how pe
rsonal testimony is used as evidence for other truths. For example, if
1 mill
ion people claimed to see a blue car it would be logical to conclude that
the
blue car existed just as I conclude that the Pacific ocean exists without
actu
ally having been an eyewitness to it's existence.
But is personal testimony the same? And is it reliable?
Just what senses are stimulated when someone (be it a goth, christian, jew,
et
c) experiences gods? I asked you to explain your personal experience with
god
and your answer was a vague reference to man meets god, man changes, etc
Coul
d you imagine trying to use such evidence in court?
D.A. - "Did you see the man commit the murder?"
Witness - "No. I didn't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste the murderer,
but I
know who it is because I can just feel it through personal revelation."
Even if I can get a million others to testify (through the usual christian
tac
tics - promise of reward, fear of hell, ram in into their heads from birth)
wo
uld we convict the poor bastard because of such testimony?
DC>> Personal revelation has been experienced by every possible believer,
DC>> for every possible belief.
RT> Do you really think so? Are you in a position to be privy to this
RT> information? How can anyone know what EVERY believer of every faith
has
RT> experienced? Is this suposed to lessen the evidence I am discussing?
There are likely few exceptions. Something motivated the egyptians to dedicat
e astounding architecture to their gods, motivated goths to fanatic battles,
t
he christians to launch the crusades...
It lessens your evidence as was stated above. Personal "religious" testimony
is not reliable. It is a vague feeling, by some non-existent sense. It
has b
een experinced by many religions which can't all be right (if any).
RT> There is nothing particularly special about my testimony, it's the same
a
s
RT> millions of others. Man asks to meet God, God meets man. Man changes.
Lov
e,
RT> joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control become importan
t
RT> to the man. The strength of the evidence is in the number of similar
RT> testimonies available and the length of time this has been happening.
Was mass belief in Osiris by Egyptians strong evidence because of the number
o
f believers and length of belief?
Self-delusion is self-delusion no matter how many experience it.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Bible
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:10:50
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G'day John:
In a msg of , John Musselwhite writes to Steve
Bedard
:
JM> VERY few claim historical evidence for Jesus' existence is really
JM> lacking.
I know I've asked this before (I do tend to repeat myself), but why is it
that very few claim historical evidence for Jesus' existence is really lackin
g? By "why", I mean historical reasons, not psychological.
Incidentally, although I'm setting myself up for embarrassment if I don't
get in, just thought I'd mention that I put my eggs in two baskets, and
only
bothered applying to the M.A. program at UCalgary . Might be taking you up
on you
r offer re: polling mail off of you come September.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Adam...
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:18:02
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G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Bamford writes to All:
RB> do I take such comments as empty ridicule, but warmly recall the scriptur
e
RB> that tells me that 'the things of God are foolishness' to ones like
you.
RB> You have stated as much in your own words, and the Bible supports you
100
%!
Let's examine this self-defense claim a little more closely.
Rob, let's assume I publish a book that is 100% bullshit. However, withi
n the book I place a disclaimer that non-believers will consider the book
nons
ense, which simultaneously offers further evidence for the validity of the
boo
k. Yet, we know the book is a crock.
Now, when the believer (we'll say some people have actually fallen for it
) believes, and we say, "Look, this is a crock, and here's why", he's simply
g
oing to point to Chapter X verse iv and say, "The Great Wunder said you'd
say
that! The Wundericron said you'd call my book foolishness, so it must be
true!
"
Clearly, this defense is not sufficient to vindicate any book, be it Wund
ericron or Bible.
Consider this the next time you think the fact that your Bible warns of
n
on-believers and their responses is any indication of the validity of said
tex
t. It's not.
You may have other reasons for thinking the Bible is the inspired word of
a deity, but that shouldn't be one of them.
RB> But it also says that your eyes can be open to the Good News of what
Chri
st
RB> has done for you, and you can have a regeneration experience
Is this anything like regeneration a la Doctor Who? Personally, I think
I liked the show so much because it presented the ability to change personalit
ies credibly in a major character. Not always for the better, mind you,
but a
t least credibly.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Worrell
Sub: Proof
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:26:10
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Worrell writes to Dave Keeton:
DW> You're pretty smart for a fundy. If God exists, the he is all knowing
DW> (by definition). If God is all knowing, then he knows that I will not
DW> believe without concrete evidence. Since concrete evidence is not
DW> forthcoming, either God does not exist or he doesn't care if I believe
DW> or not.
Not only that, but God would know EXACTLY what would convince you as to
h
is existence.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Mike Warnke
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:30:46
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G'day Aaron:
In a msg of , Aaron Boyden writes to Michael Malone:
Aaron, you mentioned something a while back about Ayer's after-death expe
rience being written up rather well in some journal (or was it Flew? actually,
it was Flew, wasn't it?). Do you have a citation for this? I'd like to
pick
it up, so a title at least would be helpful.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rob Fargher
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:32:36
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G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Fargher writes to Charlie J.
Ray:
RF> Chuckles, my boy, I doubt very much if anybody in this echo would
deny
RF> that the historical figure known as Jesus Christ or Joshua bar Joseph
RF> actually existed, was born in Bethelem, had a pretty good philosophy
RF> about life and suffered an agonizing death after being nailed to a cross.
My hand is going up.
RF> This is not an extraordinary claim nor an appeal to the supernatural.
RF> The mere statement that such a human existed doesn't require
RF> extraordinary proof; it's in the ho-hum realm.
True enough -- it is in the ho-hum realm. However, if the evidence for
t
he mere existence of Christ is highly inconclusive, there seems no need
to eve
n bother with the supernatural trappings.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Objective
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:36:22
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G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
>> Sure. Do you consider your Christian theism to be
>> reasonable/rational?
MS> Mr. Wunder, thanks for responding.
No problem (although this response is probably a little overdue -- hard
d
rive problems). Incidentally, don't call me Mr. Wunder unless you have
to. Cu
rrently, no one has to, and that includes yourself.
MS> Yes, without a doubt I consider that Christianity IS the most reasonable
MS> and rational expression of understanding of God and His plans.
Ok -- why? Incidentally, you seem to be using Christianity to explain Go
d (if I interpret the above correctly). I'm not giving you that much --
you h
ave to evidence the leprechauns before I'll talk about pots of gold at the
end
of the rainbow. Likewise, you can't use theism to substantiate Christianity
until you've substantiated theism.
MS> I'm sure
MS> that you understand that in every sense faith is a leap from the observab
le
MS> to the implied; in Christianity the leap is not so far as in every other
MS> form of theism.
I disagree, but there's no need for me to go that far. Do you feel that
theism is a logical step from the observed to the implied (ie. can you induce,
or aduce a theistic deity?)?
MS> In the explicit sense, Christianity more perfectly gives
MS> explanation to observable evidence. So far, this is only a defense of
the
MS> reasonableness of Christianity.
What observable evidence does Christianity explain better than any other
hypothesis?
MS> Given more specific questions, I'd be glad
MS> to continue this.
I've given you a few, although if there's any uncertainty, I'll be happy
to clarify.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Rice
Sub: Proof[sic]
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:42:20
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to Dave Keeton:
DR> As yet, there is no such thing as a theory of creationism,
DR> therefore science and scientists do not support it. I have
DR> documented and well-referenced evidence that the ICR cult
DR> distributes lies and deliberately misrepresents real
DR> scientists. In fact, the ICR cult DEMANDS that their members
DR> take an occult oath before they may join the cult-+- which
DR> is in opposition to how science opperates.
Interesting. For my term paper in the sociology of sects, cults and new
religious movements I've opted to do the topic of the ICR. Any information
yo
u could send my way would be appreciated.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Worrell
Sub: Revenge of the Nerds
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:50:06
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Worrell writes to Tyler A.
Wunde
r:
AB>> Actually, we do have at least one philosopher here.
TAW>> Make it two. An arrogant undergraduate here.
DW> Three, if a minor in philosophy counts...
Well, that depends on our definition of philosopher. If we speak loosely
within academia, then you're in. If we want to be really loose (and a case
c
ould be made for this -- Fred Rice is a scientist, despite having no official
credentials), we could include anyone who considered themselves a philosopher.
Or we could be real tightwads and say that only people who have published
in philosophical journals are considered philosophers, but that, I suspect,
w
ould reduce the number of philosophers on this forum to 0.
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Disproven?
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:20:16
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G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Bedard writes to Derek Clayton:
DC>> Is there sin in heaven? That is, once a person gets to heaven do
DC>> they ever
DC>> sin?
SB> I can not know for sure. I would tend to say no, yet Lucifer and his
SB> angels sinned while they were in Heaven.
Revelations chapter 21 (especially vs. 4) seems to imply that there is no
sin
in heaven. However, I will pursue this from both perspectives.
But first, if there is sin in heaven then what happens when a sin is comitted?
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Messiah
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:55:14
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G'day Joshua:
In a msg of , Joshua Lee writes to Steve Bedard:
JL> BTW, I expected to get fire from both sides, since as far as I know,
I'm
JL> the only atheist apostate ever on HOLYSMOKE, but so far it's only coming
JL> from the Christian camp, specifically, you. ;-)
If you change that to "legitimate atheist apostate" you may well be corre
ct. I assume this means you've turned back to the Jewish faith?
If so, this is actually good: I can use you as an example of why, if peo
ple converting from atheism to religion X vindicates religion X, then X
is Jud
aism. As I'm usually talking to Christians during these arguments, you're
a g
ood case to have against their using this argument to vindicate Christianity.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:03:42
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G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to Martin Goldberg:
MS> through His Son Jesus Christ. Now as to evidence, there are several
forms
MS> which are to be considered. We may consider the ontological arguments;
we
MS> may consider the arguments based upon the myths; or we may consider
the
MS> evidence of historicity. As to the first; Aquinas and Aristotle both
MS> demonstrated the nature of first and efficient cause. Are you familiar
wi
th
MS> this? There are other ontological arguments,
To my knowledge, these are not ontological arguments. For the ontologica
l argument, see Anselm. As for Aquinas and Aristotle's first and efficient
ca
uses, that is the cosmological argument (or variants of).
MS> but this ought to suffice for
MS> now. As to the second, the nature of myths indicates a truth behind
them.
What does this mean? Are you saying that as "every myth has a kernel of
truth", that we can assume the Christian lock, stock and barrel is legitimate?
MS> Not that the myths themselves are necessarily true, but that they convey
MS> events,occurances and ideas that exceed the normalcy of the day to day
MS> events. They lead into other fields of investigation. Then there is
the
MS> historical evidence. Consider Jesus Christ, Did he exist?
I don't think the evidence for his existence is adequate -- the evidence
for his supernatural, divine status is likewise inadequate.
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Kieth Anderson
Sub: Evidence.
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:54:48
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G'day Kieth:
In a msg of , Kieth Anderson writes to Hector Plasmic:
KA> verdict. Are you willing to hear this evidence and except the verdict
no
KA> matter what the demands are? To give an example in a court of law the
jur
y
KA> judge and lawyers may not have seen the crime being committed but none
th
e
KA> less a verdict is reached that has consequences. I await your reply.
I would like to see your evidence.
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Re: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 31 Jan 94 10:41:00
--------
EID:d3c1 1c3f5520
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef4
-=> Quoting Larry Sites to Mike Staab <=-
LS> BUNK! There are NO verses in the bible where Jesus "directly states
LS> that He is God incarnate". There are a few verses that christians
LS> INTERPERATE as such. Most of such verses can as validaly be
LS> interperted that Jesus claimed to know and do the will of a god
LS> distinct from him in all ways, ie he was not god but believed in god.
LS> For every verse you can provide in support of your claim, I will
LS> provide 2 in support of mine. Care to see where the evidence leads
us.
LS> John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not
LS> alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
LS> John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son
LS> of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of
LS> myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Let me get this straight, you read John 8 and came to the conclusion that
He was just a man who believed in God! Whooo Yaaa.
Wadda bout, verse 12 I AM the light of the world: he that follows ME shall
not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light Of Life! (Eternal!)
verse 18: I AM one that bear witness of MYSELF, and the Father that SENT
ME beareth witness of ME!
Verse 19: Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should
have known my Father ALSO.
Verse 23: Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I
AM
not of this world.
and verse 42: If God were your father, you would love ME: for I proceeded
forth and came from GOD; neither came I of myself, but HE SENT ME.
MORE THAN A MAN! This is God's Son we are talking about.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Avoiding Heaven
Date: 31 Jan 94 10:44:33
--------
EID:a02e 1c3f5580
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef5
reply this Foxe's Book of Martyrs, suggested read.
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Marrow <=-
dm> Why do dedicated christians and other christians who
dm> believe they will go to heaven when they die try to
dm> live for aslong as possible and avoid it?
FR>
FR> We have already asked the local believers in the Christian deities to
FR> explain that one. As I recall, most closed their eyes and hit the
FR> next key to avoid having to admit that they hold no strong faith.
FR> And, as I recall, only one participant tried to justify it with a
FR> "that would be testing my deities" type of non-excuse.
FR> 'Heaven' is a very frightening place since it is death.
FR>
When you're filled with the Light of Life, and having such an interesting
time Praising the Lord, why give it up? Maybe that dose of eternal life
in us makes it harder for us to switch locations. I've seen some folks
take what I would judge as _too long_ to die and I've seen some who time
their exit to perfection, in grace. Perhaps the painfull emotions we feel
at the loss of loved ones, the ones we are _qualified_ to discuss with the
_nasty boys_; hold us back from presenting our tears to your hard hearted
judgement. We do miss them.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:14:43
--------
EID:1a85 1c3f59c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef6
Reply this?
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Johnny Mckinney <=-
> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really exists.
SA> You've overlooked the aspect of showing theists how silly and
SA> unfounded their belief systems are.
SA> We dissect their beliefs here, to expose the contradictions and
SA> inconsistencies, paradoxes and hypocrisies, bigotry and hatred,
SA> and fallacies of false cause... just to name a few aspects of
SA> Contradictianity, Hypocristianity, and crucifixations.
Let me get this straight, you want to expose my PARADOX, whooo yaaa!
You want to dissect my foolish appearing belief that is FOUNDED ON TRUTH!
Amen, glory to God, praise to the Most High!!
As a rule of thumb, when you use so many big words, check the dictionary,
you might get caught with your pants down.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Re: Evidence
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:35:20
--------
EID:1eac 1c3f5c60
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef7
-=> Quoting Derek Clayton to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
DC> G'day Richard:
DC>
DC> In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes
DC> to Mike Staab:
RT> those you disagree with. Anyway MS I certainly agree there is _evidence
RT> for the IDEA_, most open minds would agree methinks.
RT> They used this _no evidence_ crap on me, I think you will find HP has
RT> changed the meaning of the word so it no longer agrees with the dictionar
y
RT> definition or judicial definition. The sworn testimony of millions of
RT> people over 1900 years, concerning a life changing experience, supported
by
RT> independant witnesses is not evidence! Astounding eh what?
DC>
DC> Testimony of personal revelation is evidence...but for what? Social
DC> programming? Self-delusion? Elation at the thought of avoiding
DC> death? Your god?
You are gettin carried away DC, I already sent a reply to you, concerning
this argument. Just a tip, edit FIRST then send one attack, I've just too
many nasty boys to deal with! Have a good day and may the Lord reveal Himself
to YOU! My reply is titled _too many question marks_.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Drew Webber
Sub: Re: fundamentals
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:40:40
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EID:aac4 1c3f5d00
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef8
-=> Quoting Drew Webber to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
-=> Quoting Richard Thorneycroft to Jason Rosendale <=-
RT> You're funny. The atheists post a four part message attempting to
RT> explain God's Laws for the operation of His universe. Like layers of
RT> an onion, each discovery leads to more mystery, more exceptions and
RT> indications that much more remains to be discovered. And we of the
RT> faith are part of a spiritual union, will we now be subjected to an
RT> insulting and paternalistic diatribe from an athiest, explaining the
RT> workings of the Holy Spirit?
DW>
DW> Well, I find it pretty damn insulting when someone claims to know the
DW> way the whole universe is ran because a old book and their parents
DW> told them that is the way it is, and then shrug off any attempt to
DW> contridict those cliams with known facts...
DW>
Oh! this one goodie goodie. What a JOY! Whooo yaaa! Here we go.
Read my lips, I make no claim to know ANYTHING about the way the whole
universe is run. (I can't even figure out the pretty pattern in my dog's
coat!) My claim as a fundy would be that God the creator knows His
creation and His Laws of the Universe. Seems you guys are the ones spending
all the time and money trying to figure out His laws. Most of us just live
with em. After all, you can't really change them, can you?
You know the really silly thing? There's a bunch of nasty boys out there
trying to use a few of God's operating laws, they stumbled across, to try
and prove God does not exist! Talk about pissing into the wind! (With your
money!)
I could have been really mean and insulting, believe it or not I used to
be
among those that are, but the sweet Lord has mellowed me. Have a great day
and the Lord bless you (good thing!).
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: fundamentals
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:13:53
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EID:df58 1c3f69a0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef9
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
rt> The atheists post a four part message attempting to
rt> explain God's Laws for the operation of His universe.
FR>
FR> That's like saying Christians post messages attempting to explain the
FR> mechanics behind fairies abilities to sprinkle dew drops around the
FR> yard.
Exactamungo, what do I know about _fairies_, he he.
FR> Your you deities are not believed in by the better educated,
FR> critically-thinking populace, don't you think it's funny to continue
FR> to project your own irrational, unfounded superstitions upon them?
I had no idea, O Better Educated One, that this echo reflected such elevated
thought! Does Your Eminence desire I leave the fairie yard? I thought I
was
just exchanging scatology in the barn yard. We usually do our recruiting
among the unwashed masses, ya know!
FR> What you've found is that physical laws do not require any of your
FR> deities and that the natural processes around you are direct results
FR> of natural, physical laws. Concocting deities to explain that which
FR> you do not understand is, of course, entirely up to you
Well, not entirely up to me. By the way it's what YOU found not me and
if I were you I'd wash my hands of it.
FR> yet don't you
FR> think that a rational approach to understanding is of better value
FR> than to merely quip "well, my deities did it" and stop thinking
FR> enirely?
Isn't it odd, I find my approach is like the beginning of wisdom. You know
I don't think anyone can _stop thinking_. One track, narrow, obsessive
biased, arrogant, autocratic, but not at a halt.
rt> Like layers of an onion, each discovery leads to more mystery,
rt> more exceptions and indications that much more remains to