God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Styx Allum
To: Tony Nasrallah
Sub: speaking of bigots,
Date: 30 Jan 94 12:52:02
--------
EID:0a2f 1c3e6680
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f0c896b
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 2d43f820
> The Qur'an tells us that God made us into different nations and
> tribes so that we might know each other, not hate each other.
Gee, that makes a lot of sense... !?!
Different... so that they might know each other. Hmm.
Hate usually stems from differences. Although someone might hate
someone else for being similar, that is not nearly so common.
Using your statement above, please apply it toward different
religious denominations. Does it bring them together, or does
it tend to focus upon how they differ?
Perhaps that is why so many denominations preach condemnation
toward those who differ from their norm.
I fail to see the validity in what your Qur'an is apparently trying
to teach about tribal differences contributing toward knowing each
other. Separating cultures into separate tribes moves them apart;
rather than bring them together.
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From: Styx Allum
To: Suzy Quarrella
Sub: Walk on water? Better know where the rocks are.
Date: 30 Jan 94 13:04:03
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EID:3b3f 1c3e6880
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f0c896c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d45dd42
Hubby Steve:
> SQ> I don't do winter. :) [Why do you think I'm here in Texas,
> SQ> and not in my home state of Michigan? :) ]
Wife Suzy:
> Because I dragged you down here, that's why. :)
Oooooo... is that another case of
"Hate the sin... love the sinner"? ;-)
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From: Styx Allum
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Theory???
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:53:04
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EID:25ec 1c3ea6a0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145dd9
> JS> Only 1/2 of one percent of the Bible could be considered
> JS> innacurate or misunderstood.
In order to know that, you would have to know precisely how much
of it is wrong. Also, just WHICH .5% is innacurate could make
a monumental difference.
God designed your mouth to be big enough for your foot.
Naturally, God doesn't make mistakes. Right?
Or are they only .5% mistakes?
Hey, he missed the value of pi by nearly 5%, which is almost
ten times as innacurate as what you claim.
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From: Styx Allum
To: All
Sub: Conference Guidelines
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:56:05
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EID:d907 1c3ea700
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145dda
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcome
in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-9998
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 21:40:06
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EID:a154 1c3ead00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145ddb
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a42
> SA> Food for thought: Do you pray to your god?
> Yup.
> SA> If he is omniscient, would he not already know your thoughts before
> SA> any need to express them via prayer?
> Yup.
That means that prayer is redundant and unnecessary.
Do you believe in both omniscience AND freewill?
If so, are you aware that they are mutually exclusive concepts?
> SA> -Styx Allum, Moderator
> I'm new on this echo, but a beaten, grizzled veteran of Net356
I'm familiar with that network. One of my best friends founded it
back when they were calling Net 152 for their echo feeds.
He is now the NC for Net 152. He was also my nextdoor neighbor
when I started my BBS back in '81. Small world, no?
> BTW, noticed you're in Eugene, Or. Do you know Les Lemke?
Yes, however... he is in Coos Bay, OR. (About 150 miles away!)
We've had many heated discussions, usually about politics.
> ... Free speech means letting those who are wrong speak also.
Bingo. Welcome to HolySmoke!
-Styx
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 30 Jan 94 21:59:07
--------
EID:a154 1c3eaf60
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f145ddc
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a43
> These events were carried out by men, using their free wills,
> not God IMHO.
Ah. In my last message, I asked you if you believed in free will.
You've already admitted to believing in your god's omniscience.
Food for thought:
Assume that god knows everything, incl. future (i.e. omniscient).
John has the "free will" to choose path "A" or path "B".
God already knows that he will choose "B".
Does John have the free will to choose "A"?
No. If he does, then God was incorrect. (Hence, not omniscient)
For your god to be omniscient, John can never choose anything
other than what God already knows he will choose.
For John to have free will, your god can not be omniscient.
Now you have the dubious duty of choosing which concept you
wish to believe in. If you choose to believe in both, you will
be guilty of lying to yourself, as they cannot co-exist.
---
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From: Styx Allum
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 30 Jan 94 22:16:08
--------
EID:4b58 1c3eb200
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f1609d6
REPLY: 1:3807/105 2d493a44
> Ok all you happy athiests out there...this here Bible-beater's got a
> question:
> Why do athiests carry out a majority of their religious debates with
> us Christians rather than some other religious group?
Because the majority of religious groups here ARE Christian.
They are also easy targets for logical debunking, due to their
belief in mutually exclusive concepts.
Their bible does them more harm than good, with regard to defense
of their belief system. We've had a veritable book posted here
of biblical contradictions and inaccuracies.
> a. Christians have beliefs that involve faith more than intellect
> and this hacks you off.
Some people DO tend to be less tolerance of dogmatic ignorance;
so that is a valid theory.
> b. Christians are right. (Come on now...this is always a
> possibility)
BZZZZZT! Stick around, and you will find that the Christian religion
is based upon mutually exclusive concepts. Therefor, it can not be
true.
> c. You can't find many Taoists to argue with.
Other than to argue how "Tao" is pronounced. ;-)
> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
Arguing with a Mor(m)on is much like a one-way communication.
Their reality routines are stored in write-only memory.
> ... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
Where there's Holy Smoke, there's bound to be fundies afire.
...Black holes were created when God divided by zero.
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From: Styx Allum
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Fleas: Adam had'em.
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:1111 1c3f8a00
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f911964
> BTW, Herr Comrade Allum, I never did send accolades your way for
> founding this forum.
My pleasure. Rub Styx together and add some sparks...
toss in some fundies, and there be holy smoke.
> SA> Little did I know that what started out as a joke to tease local
> SA> fundies... would catch on and become the 13th most active echo on
> SA> the FidoNet backbone (at last check).
> Hmmmmm...something satanic this way comes. HolySmoke the
> _13'th_ most active echo...not 12'th, not 14'th...
It's a prime echo, so it needed a prime number.
:)
--- ---
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From: Styx Allum
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Flood stud.
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:20:01
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EID:a8ef 1c3f8a80
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f911965
> ... A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then?
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood."
Damn, I should have been a fundy, with a line like that!
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:43:03
--------
EID:c802 1c3f4560
I totally agree with you, brother. As Jesus told his discipiles when they
preach the good news and they reject it for them to knock the dust off their
shoes as they leave.
My shoes are dusted.
Johnny
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 08:51:05
--------
EID:a349 1c3f4660
Dear Marty
I cannot scientifically prove to you that God exists. Even Thomas
saw and talked with Jesus and he still doubted that he was the son of God
and that he had risen from the grave. He believed only after Jesus appeared
to him and Thomas was able to touch him. Jesus told us "blessed are those
who have not seen, but still believe." When the time comes, you will see
Jesus. If this is all a hoax and I still believe, what have I lost? If Jesus
is real and you chose not to accept him and his salvation, what have you
lost? A great deal my friend. My wife and I prey for you and all peoples
of
the earth who have not found the peace that comes with knowing Christ.
Johnny
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: HAL-PC - Houston, TX - (713) 963-4100 (1:106/10000)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Strickland
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 30 Jan 94 07:00:19
--------
EID:c8c8 1c3e3800
David Strickland, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leip
zig
DS> Marty Leipzig Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
DS> About: +Origin:
GG> ... +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC> ... +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> ... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
DS> ... +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML> ... +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for the
DS> DS Almighty Lard
ML> +Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony for
ML> Heyzeus!
DS> +Origin: Sissy Britches: Cowards for Crust.
ML> +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
DS> +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Taking over the World for His Piety.
ML> +Origin: STUFFING NETWORK: Turkeys for Jezuz!
DS> +Origin: SECOND LAW OF THERMO-DYNAMICS: Changing the Laws of the
DS> Universe for Stupidity.
ML> +Origin: SCOTCH NETWORK: Humic acid and loch water for Hayzeus!
ML> (Doc Goldberg's gonna get me for this one...)
DS> Can't wait to see the reply your gonna get for that one.
DS> +Origin: Social Theocracy: Removing your Rights for Jaaayyyssuuss.
+Origin: SYMBIONT NETWORK: Leeches and Hangers-on for Kryst.
... The wages of sin are death. Pat Robertson's are $6E+06/year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The deathcult always rings twice
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:57:36
--------
EID:8f63 1c3e5720
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
ML> ... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
MG> OK...you win.
I've got a million of 'em...
MG> ...Fundies: Litterbugs on the Information Superhighway.
Or...
... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information Superhighway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Life's Meaning
Date: 30 Jan 94 08:32:03
--------
EID:658e 1c3e4400
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> SB> You convince me of nothing.
ML> Well, if you can't be swayed by the facts; there is nothing
ML> that will penetrate that shield of dogma induced ignorance.
SB> You have shown me no facts.
Unfortunately, you either cannot or will not recognize a fact
even if it came up to you, shook your hand and pissed all over
your shoes.
SB> ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In Jesus' name we shall be wrong
Sounds about right.
... "Dave, my mind. It's going. Hey! Let me tell you about Jesus."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Mythology
Date: 30 Jan 94 10:58:14
--------
EID:8975 1c3e5740
Steve Rose, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:J.J. Hitt
SR> Hello J.J.!
JJH> Street corners I can deal with. I find street evangelism more
JJH> entertaining than I find it a nuisance.
SR> Aren't those pin-heads a laugh riot!?? :D
SR> I love it when someone gets behind them and crouches down. Then you
SR> simply push forward a bit and...
I like to walk by them murmuring "Hail Satan...Hail Satan..."
JJH> And answering the door without your pants on will take care of the
JJH> door-to-door types.
SR> Also holding a bottle of half-empty gun oil in one's hands...looking
SR> mildly annoyed...adds to the effect and the laughs! :)
This happened last night...I was relaxing with my usual adult
beverage, watching something or other from Russia via satellite
when the doorbell rings (at 8:30 pm, no less). I answer the
door holding a brace of mastiffs (each one tipping in at over
100 kilos), to be greeted, however briefly, by a whole herd of
Jehovah's Witlesses.
"Watch out! They hate proselytizers! I don't know how long I
can hold 'em!"
"Grrrrr.....Woof!".
Always good for a chuckle...
... Nine out of ten mastiffs prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 30 Jan 94 09:15:52
--------
EID:e697 1c3e49e0
Don Martin, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- God
DM> Strikes L.A. -- with Don Martin on 24 Jan 94 08:48:
ML> not a small amount of hot volcanic gasses. All of a sudden, the
ML> surface broke into individual platelets and started to convect
ML> (just like the bigger continental plates). We all bid a hasty
ML> retreat to the crater rim just in time to see a new $200,000
ML> coring rig slowly being subducted....
ML> The lava fountaining that evening was most impressive.
DM> You guys do get to have all the fun.
Yep. Any business where explosives are an integral part of the
day has to be fun.
DM> I have always wanted to see
DM> an eruption first hand (the lava sort, thankyouverymuch, and not the
DM> Mt. St. Helens sort).
I was in one of the first groups to be allowed into the St. Helen's
area after the May, '80 blast. One of our profs was a
distinguished vulcanologist; he got the invite, needed
pack-mules (a.k.a. grad students) and off we went. Since I was
also PADI certified, I got the dubious honor of doing some
underwater photography in what remained of Spirit Lake. Nothing more
fun than SCUBA diving (divers weights and all...) in water chock full
of busted trees and volcanic ash.
... Hi, Mr. Rex! I'm Barney! I love you! You love m<<>>
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER WITH BRAINLESS IGNORANTS?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:27:19
--------
EID:d220 1c415360
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Martin
Gold
berg
JM> Dear Marty
I'm the "Marty" in this echo. The other Doctor hereabouts
prefers the appellation "Martin".
JM> I cannot scientifically prove to you that God exists.
At least you admit defeat.
JM> Even
JM> Thomas saw and talked with Jesus and he still doubted that he was the
JM> son of God and that he had risen from the grave. He believed only after
JM> Jesus appeared to him and Thomas was able to touch him.
Ah, yes. Doubting Thomas. The original skeptic. A patron saint
of science if science had any need of patron saints.
JM> Jesus told us
JM> "blessed are those who have not seen, but still believe."
He also blessed just about everyone with a vested interest in
maintaining the status quo. What Jesus failed to realize is that
the poor are part of the problem...
JM> When the time
JM> comes, you will see Jesus.
Wrong. If you are referring to death, all one will see is a
body rapidly returning to the ambient temperature of its
surrounding environment.
JM> If this is all a hoax and I still believe,
JM> what have I lost? If Jesus is real and you chose not to accept him and
JM> his salvation, what have you lost? A great deal my friend.
Pascal's Wager, circa 1994. Listen, Bubba, what if YOU picked
the wrong horse in this supernatural trifecta? What if the
Mormon's nailed it on the nose? How about the Muslims? Or how
about all the atheists out there who don't bet on illusions
and rather invest in reality?
Hmmmm?
JM> My wife and
JM> I prey for you
Somehow, I don't think this is a typo...
JM> and all peoples of the earth who have not found the
JM> peace that comes with knowing Christ.
We don't pray for you, Johnny. We can only hope that someday
some small fact can penetrate that shield of dogma-induced
benightedness and let you celebrate the substantiality of life
in the here and now instead of wasting it preparing it for some
apparent afterworld.
... Your lack of comprehension may tend to make you lax in worldly ways.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Pluto? Far out, man. Orbital, even.
Date: 01 Feb 94 06:30:44
--------
EID:88ad 1c4133c0
Fredric Rice, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
FR> #include Dan Lafferty
DL> Have you ever visited or even seen Pluto...
FR>
And beyond...
DL> Then how do you KNOW it exists?
ml> By something with which you are totally unfamiliar: science.
ml> Celestial mechanics, physics and astronomy, to name but a few.
FR> Perterbation theory (not to be confused with masturbation theory.)
FR> Masturbations of, er, I ment perterbations of Neptune and Uranus gave
FR> observers a reason to suspect another fairly massive body. Dan
FR> suspects that it was a relevation sent by juh-HEEEE-Zeus! no doubt.
Perterbation theory really pisses me off. It irritates me. Damn it!
Great...now I'm all perturbed.....
HEY! It works!
DL> All those pictures might just be a fabrication of the
DL> scientific community for the sake of recieving grants \
DL> that they might keep their jobs.
FR> Surely he doesn't actually hold this belief!
He wrote the damn thing. Unless he was typing in tongues...
ml> Then again, they might not. Why is it that you fundies will so
ml> readily accept something so non-evidenced as some sort of
ml> supernatural being(s), yet so readily disregard cold, hard
ml> scientific fact?
FR> Surely you don't expect a rational answer!
Like the last time I took a certain well-heeled girl named
Hope out to lunch, and she again grabbed the check: Hope
Springs Eternal.
ml> ... Death is the only god that comes when you call.
FR> Certainly it can easilly sneek upon the unsuspecting.
THERE! LOOK BEHIND YOU! <<>>
... Be suspicious of all native-born Esperanto speakers.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: William Stone
Sub: WHY DO WE BOTHER WITH THESE MORONIC FUNDIES?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:15:20
--------
EID:0798 1c4151e0
William Stone, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Johnny
Mckinn
ey
JM> I love you too, Marty
WS> Johnny,
WS> I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are
WS> influenced by reprobate minds.
We "hear" him just fine (actually, nothing here is "heard", but
rather read...accuracy counts, you know). It's just that we are
so busy laughing at him and his fundy stormtroopers, like
you, that it only appears that we are ignoring him.
WS> They know nothing of the giving love of
WS> Jesus as he hanged on the cross,
Blood! Death! Depravation! Welcome to Christianity 101.
WS> nor do they understand the deep peace
WS> and satisfaction from the substitution of faith for their so-called
WS> "scientific proof".
You must be so eternally blissed to give up your life and
reality for some baseless illusion; after all it relieves you
of the painful process of having to think.
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
WS> when we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them and
WS> their abominations.
Blood! Death! Mayhem! Welcome to Christianity 102.
WS> May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail
WS> in pain as the burning fires of hell consume their flesh.
And you bozos wonder why we take you so to task.
"Peace and Love." Bullshit.
A pox upon you and your deathcult.
WS> I only wish
WS> I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
You were born a few years too late, Billzo. Torqemada and you
would have been the best of buddies. Death, dismemberment and
torture all in Christ's name. Funny how the more times change,
the more things remain the same; especially in static and
stagnant doctrines of demise.
WS> Yours in Christ,
WS> William Stone
You people are the best argument for atheism that has ever been
devised.
... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information Superhighway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 01 Feb 94 07:27:14
--------
EID:e864 1c413b60
Martin Goldberg, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipz
ig
DC>>>> ... +Origin: PRIAPIC Network! Dickheads for Jeezus!
MG>>>> Lap! Network: Going in Circles for Jesus.
ML>>> +Origin: PolyTetraFluoroEthelyne Network: Slipping away
ML>>> for Jeeeeeesus!
MG>>> +Origin: Ultraviolet Network: Cancer for Jesus.
ML>> +Origin: Ultraviolent Network: Gunning down doctors for
ML>> Jesus.
MG>> +Origin:Guilt Network! Jewish Mothers for Jesus and Chicken
MG>> Soup.
ML> +Origin: Goy Network!: Putzes and schlemiels for Jesus!
MG> +Origin: STAPH NETWORK! Drizzeling Shits for Jesus.
+Origin: STREP NETWORK! Screaming 'til our throats bleed for Jeesus!
... Varicose veins: blood vessels extremely near each other.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Fear And Loathing...Preparations for the next life.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:28:28
--------
EID:9dcd 1c415380
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Fredric
Rice
FR>sb> So you are saying that you know my Christian friends
FR>sb> better than I do and you know for a fact that they
FR>sb> live in fear? Thats quite the claim!
FR>In fact I understand what motivates you better than you do.
SB> What makes you think that?
Fred has made a study of "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and
the Madness of Crowds".
... IMPIETY: MY irreverence toward your deity.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: A quick geology lesson.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:30:07
--------
EID:b122 1c4153c0
Steve Bedard, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Larry Sites
SB> ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
Solid rock, when exposed to the elements, tend to weather and erode.
Strange how beliefs do the same when exposed to logic and reason.
... The FREE GIFT of God costs just too damn much.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: Lawyers and other assorted bottom dwellers.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:16:28
--------
EID:9386 1c415200
Don Martin, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Richard Thorneyc
roft
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Richard Thorneycroft shared a conception
DM> -- Santa and eight flying re -- with Wayne Michaels on 26 Jan 94
DM> 12:54:
RT> that _there is NO evidence_? Their sworn testimony is evidence.
DM> Evidence in a court of law, yes. But scientific evidence does
DM> not accept anecdote, and around here scientists and not lawyers are
DM> the role models.
Where, indeed, other than in brothels and cheap motels, would lawyers
ever be considered role models?
... How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? Cut the rope.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY THEY DON'T BOTHER WITH SUPERSTITIONS.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:17:33
--------
EID:e4d6 1c415220
Johnny Mckinney, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:William
Sto
ne
JM> I totally agree with you, brother. As Jesus told his discipiles
JM> when they preach the good news and they reject it for them to knock
JM> the dust off their shoes as they leave.
JM> My shoes are dusted.
JM> Johnny
Just don't let that doorknob impale you in the ass on your
scurrying way out.
... Everyone stopping by with unsought advice will see your mistake.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Starwyn
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Tear a new one.....
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:52:00
--------
EID:23f8 1c417680
* Replying to a message originally to Fredric Rice on 01-31-94
RT>Exactamungo, that's why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's
RT>your point?
RT>Exactamungo, that is why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's
RT>your point?
RT>Bla bla bla, why not just let Hector answer, I usually reply,
RT>you can read it.
RT>Gotcha wondering eh?
RT>You pompous twit and I suppose you will _enlighten_ me as to the
RT>true meaning of TEAR A NEW ONE.
RT>Stop trying to be so brilliant. Hector used the word _lunatic_,
RT>get it?
RT>What is YOUR point? What IS your point? What is your POINT?
RT>Don't go away mad, just go away.
Whatever drugs you're currently taking, would they help my back pain? You
¨see
m pretty blasted on whatever it is...
Good luck.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: John Bobbit Hates To Be Cut Off In Traffic! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Crusades, et all
Date: 29 Jan 94 12:47:10
--------
EID:10ca 06678672
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b0
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
JF>Who says the crusades were "Christian"? I feel they were a horrible
JF>tragedy. Why would Christians need to conquer Jerusalem? Jesus said
his
JF>kingdom was not of this world. Christianity has no Mecca, no physical
JF>location on earth to "defend or exalt".
From the America OnLine encyclepida:
As religion touched nearly every facet of medieval life, people of all
classes journeyed to shrines, or places of religious interest. The hallowed
place might be the grave of a martyr, or a church that sheltered the relics
of a saint. These journeys were called pilgrimages. Travel was hard, but
discomfort was even welcomed as a kind of penance. The pilgrim who could
not
afford a horse plodded on foot, aided by a staff. The typical pilgrim garb
was a cloak, girdled by a cord, and a brimmed felt hat.
Every country had its favorite shrines, but the great shrine for all
Christians was the Holy City, Jerusalem. Even though the Holy Land had been
held by the Arabs for centuries, Christian pilgrims had been unmolested.
When the Holy Land fell to the _eljuk Turks in the 11th century, they
persecuted pilgrims.
Christian Europe then vowed to win the Holy Land from the Turk "infidels."
Pope Urban II declared in 1095, "God wills it. Christ Himself will be your
leader when you fight for Jerusalem." On that command he sent forth Europe
to fight a series of religious wars called the Crusades.
From my own research:
Prior to the 1st crusade, the Roman Empire was divided into 2 christian
areas, roughly France/Germany/Spain/Italy headed by Pope Urban II and the
Byzantine Empire, an area around Constantinople under Alexius. (if I
remember correctly, the 2 divisions of christianity came about over a petty
dispute about if it was ok or not to have icons in church.) "A great
offensive against the Moors was still being waged by the Christian princes
of Spain, and the church had aided enlistment for the holy cause by an
offer of special indulgence-the promise to the recruit that whatever
penance he had accumulated would be wholly or largely remitted. Under a
similar blessing the conquest of Sicily was being pushed" page 228 of
Stephenson's _Mediaeval History_. The rest of Europe was in conflict with
the various kings trying to expand/maintain power.
In 1095 Urban went to France where he held council of clergy and nobility
at Clermont. "There Urban, a Frenchman speaking in the vernacular to a
French audience, delivered his epoch-making appeal. The Turks, he reminded
his hearers, had but recently, after almost destroying the Byzantine
Empire, seized the holy places in Palestine. What a nobile work it would
be to rescue the Lord's sepulcher from their foul hands! And who should
assume this most sacred obligation if not the Franks-a people long
distingused for purity of faith, and a people famed beyond all others for
prowess in arms? Here, crowded in by sea and mountain, they inhabited a
country that hardly produced enough food to support them; there, on the
contrary, lay the Promised Land of Israel, 'flowing with milk and honey.'
Let them cease from their murderous wars and dissensions. Let them rather
join in one blessed enterprise, to wrest from the infidel the lands
defiled by his presence, knowing that God would grant them not merely a
rich earthly reward but also imperishable glory in the kingdom of heaven.
So Urban concluded, and the entire assemblage, we are told, shouted as
with one voice, 'Dieu le veut-God wills it!'" page 229 Ibid.
Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us", Jews
in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes and
hacked to death or burned alive.
"Every crusader, together with his family and all his possessions, was
brought under the protection of the pope and, by a plenary indulgence, he
was assured of immediate entrance into paradise if he died in the course
of the war". "Crowds of ill-armed persons, without adequate funds or
competent leadership, started on a mad pilgrimage... the majority on
rashly advancing into Asia Minor, were killed by the Turks". page 230
Ibid.
The organized army was commanded by the French, including Hugh, count of
Vermandois; Robert, duke of Normandy and Stephen, count of Blois, the last
2 representing the king of England. Also Robert, count of Flanders. The
neighboring house of Boulogne sent Eustace, Baldwin and Godfrey, who had
been appointed by Henry IV to the undesirable duchy of Lower Lorraine.
Also Raymond, count of Toulouse, Bohemund, son of Robert Guiscard.
Bohemund was unquestionably the best general. Merchant shipowners of Genoa
and Pisa helped. They left in 1096 by various routes to converge on
Constantinople where Alexius had promised to furnish money, provisions and
more troops. Alexius had problems enrolling chiefs for his service. He
would not provide for futher progress untill they did homage to him for
whatever lands conqured.
In June 1097, Nicaea fell and was given to Alexius who then diverted his
forces to the Aegean coast leaving the crusaders to go on toward the holy
land. Bohemund's nephew Tancred took Tarsus while Balwin took Edessa. The
rest spent the winter outside the walls of Antioch waiting support from
Alexius who along with deserters had turned back. An Italian fleet arrived
with supplies and siege engines in spring 1098. Antioch surrendered on
June 3 to the generalship and diplomacy of Bohemund 5 days before a Turk
relief force arrived. Bohemund lead in driving them off also. Bohemund
defied emperor Alexius who had abandoned them and took title to Antioch.
Pope Urban did not interven on Alexius behalf. (No big surprize - grin)
Italian ships directly supplied the popes forces.
"The battle also precipitated a bitter quarrel between Bohemund and
Raymond of Toulouse, who had himself been eager to rule at Antioch and who
now, in the face of the northern French party, espoused the cause of
Alexius.Besides, the southern French attributed the victory, not to the
generalship of Bohemund, but to the power of a sacred relic-the lance
which had pierced the side of the crucified Christ and which, as the
result of a vision, had recently been discovered by Peter Bartholomew, a
follower of Raymond. The Normans, of course, scoffed at this alleged
miracle, intimating that their rival had simply uncovered what they had
already buried. Even after the host had resumed its march on Jerusalem,
dissension still raged. At last, during a halt on the coast, Peter
Bartholomew agreed to undergo ordeal by fire to prove the truth of his
statements. Clad only in a shirt and bearing the Holy Lance, he actually
walked into a heap of fiercely blazing olive branches and emerged on the
other side. Twelve days later he died, in consequence, said his friends,
of excited handling by the crowd; in consequence, said his enemies, of
natural burning by the fire. So the dispute continued as before-a
remarkable commentary on the mixture of religion and politics that
characterized the whole crusade". page 232-3 Ibid. Maybe the ICR, todays
creationists and you would be willing to "prove" the truth of your
statements in the above manner? (grin)
On July 15, 1099 Jerusalem fell after 6 weeks assualt. One week later,
Godfrey who led the final assault and who had remained somewhat aloof from
the previous wrangling was proclaimed Defender of the Holy Sepulcher.
Urban died in Rome on July 29, 1099. Godfrey died on July 18, 1100 and his
brother Baldwin who, on moving from Edessa, was formally crowned as king
on Christmas Day, 1100.
The ecstatic cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote about the conquest of
Jerusalem, "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees
and
even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgement of God."
In summary, it was Pope Urban, head of the christian church, that "lead"
the 1st crusade, not Godfrey of Lorraine of the house of Bologne aka de
Bouillon, who merely was in the right place when Jerusalem fell. Leaders
in the field were nobility that had little chance of rulling in their
native country. Troops were induced to go via material *and* special
spiritual rewards. After the failure of the eastern christian emperor
Alexius to live up to his end of the bargin, leaders in the field set the
presedent for claiming kingship.
As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Chrusade,
"The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ
himself is glorified."
In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in
1191, he ordered 3,000 captives - many of them women and children - taken
outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for
swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no
consequence.
Throughout Europe, beginning in the 1100s, tales spread that Jews were
abducting christian children and killing them for blood rituals. Hundreds
of massacres stemmed from this "blood libel". After the Fourth Lateran
Council in 1215 proclaimed the doctrine of transubstantiation: that the
host wafer miraculously turns into the body of Jesus, rumors soon spread
that Jews were stealing and crucifying the wafers. Reports said that the
pierced host actually bled. In 1243 in Belitz, Germany, Jews were burned
at the stake for this. To avenge the tortured host, the German knight
Rindfliesch lead a brigade in 1298 that exterminated 146 defenseless
Jewish *communities* in six months. Such killings continued into the
1800s.
Don't forget the persecution of Albigensian heretics starting in the 1200s
that lead to the Inquistion which shifted to focus on witchcraft in the
1400s. What about the "Protestant Inquisition" started by John Calvin in
the 1500s leading to Oliver Cromwell being deemed a *moderate* in
the 1650s because he massacred *only* Catholics and Anglicans, not other
Protestants?
What about that Thirty Years War between Protestants and Catholics, that
involved Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France, and
Italy? One estimate is that Germany's population dropped from 18 to 4
Million.
Contrary to Gods will, christianity has repetedely resorted to killing
others if they refuse to be "saved". If I were the devil, I could think
of
no better way to seperate people from God that to get them to break his
commandment "thou shall not kill" by killing in Gods name! How else could
so
many people be mislead if the organized christian religions are not the
work
of the devil? Now what makes you think your version/interpertation of
"christianity" is any better?
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Justification by faith
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:12:19
--------
EID:10ca 06678673
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b3
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
JC>Rom 3:10 "as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous,
LS> BUNK! Paul is ADDING his personal interpertation and in so doing is
LS> contridicting the clear message of the bible. Not only is Noah note
LS> as being rightious:
RT>Hi Larry, Paul prefaces his statement with _as it is written_ a ref.
to
RT>the O.T.. The Thompson Chain gives Ps.14 as a cross ref.
RT>A Psalm of David ...V1 reads
RT>The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
RT>V7 is the good part!
RT>Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!
RT>when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people,(restoration)
RT>Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
So what is your point? Aren't you merely CONFIRMING my point that Paul is
twisting scripture to his own ends? If a fool says there is no god or
righteous, does that make it true? Paul attempts to show that only Jesus
is
righteous, yet Genesis clearly says that Noah was righteous. Which one is
wrong, Genesis or Paul? Since they can't both be right, your holy babble
is
only partialy true, at best. How do you know that what you consider the
"good parts" are true, let alone mean what you interpert them to?
Peace, Larry
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From: Larry Sites
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 29 Jan 94 14:27:38
--------
EID:10ca 06678674
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b4
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
FR> You are taught that fags are 'abominations.' You justify
FR> this hatred by stating that you don't hate the individuals
FR> but homosexual acts -- which hets also engage in.
DL>??? I have no idea what you are talking about. "Hets" don't engage in
DL>"homo" acts. Homo acts are sex with like sex in any form.
Then it is ok for a male to analy penetrate a female? Do you have a bible
quote to that effect?
Peace, Larry
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:38:39
--------
EID:5f47 1c3e8cc0
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4506
PID: CNet 3.0
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the current
RB> pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the holocaust.
SR> Yeah...some story about him in his young days being told in effect,
to
SR> 'Pull
SR> this lever'...and he thought he was just turning on the lawn sprinklers.
SR> Little did he know... :)
Wrong answer... as another responded, the rumor has it that he was involved
in
the production of the gas, and knew what it was going for. This is supposedl
y part of the reason George Bush asked people to forgive the Nazi war criminal
s, because he was trying to make way for further involvement between America
a
nd the Vatican.
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:55:48
--------
EID:2abd 1c3e8ee0
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4909
PID: CNet 3.0
rb> "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of America, and
to
rb> the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible,
rb> with Liberty and justice for all." -- This is something to fight for!!!
FR> Read the original pledge, Rob, prior to 1950, and you'll notice that
you
FR> have been lied to badly. You will notice that the pledge never had
the
FR> phrase "one nation under god" in it.
It is typical that you would find something to rag on rather than stay on
topi
c and acknowledge that I support your right to believe what you wish, as
appos
e to the person whom I wrote that to. No, you couldn't possibly take the
time
to be supportive of something positive, you would rather continue to bitch
ab
out everything and anything that threatens you. You say that I need to
relax
and take a pill. I suggest you do the same, for, if you did, you could
have f
elt comfortable staying on topic and not going off on a tangent just to
get a
kick.
As for the statement "one nation under God", since it wasn't even the issue
at
hand, but rather just something I felt led to 'highlight', I shouldn't give
y
ou any response, but your high and mighty attitude and self assurance is
lacki
ng in poise and tact. For your assuption that I have no knowledge of the
hist
orical version of the above, or couldn't possibly admit it if I did is a
bunch
of propagandic redoric that you are so good at spewing. I quoted the version
I like, and that I figured most would know. Live with that!
And in closing, I repeat, "and Liberty and Justice for all". That goes
for yo
u as well as me! So start respecting others RIGHT to belive what they wish,
a
nd at least have the guts to support my supporting your rights! Religious
Lib
erty is a principle that is fundamental to this nation. Take Care!
Rob
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From: Rob Bamford
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitism
Date: 30 Jan 94 18:02:43
--------
EID:1b15 1c3e9040
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4aa8
PID: CNet 3.0
RB> Anyone hear any of the information that Pope John Paul II, the
RB> current pope, was one involved with the gas chambers during the
RB> holocaust. I will have to dig up the info I had on this!!
DR> The claim is that Pope JPII helped manufacture some of the gas used
DR> in the Nazi Germany extermination camps. [...]
This is the information I heard. And while I do not say it is true, I don't
a
ssume your accuracy in saying its not also! I heard it from a source quite
se
perate from Chick Publications. It would be interesting to know for sure
all the details, if there are any, to this rumor. Take Care!
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: What use...
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:15:46
--------
EID:10ca 066234a2
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4cb309
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
...is religion to the living? By now, most of you will have seen enough
of
my posts to know that I hold christianity and particularly fundamentalists
and creationists, in the highest contempt, and am able to justify it with
bible quotes and historical evidence. Yet, I hold the teachings of Jesus
in
the highest reguard and to the best of my ability try to live my life
according to his directives.
I am now interested in discussing the value of religion in the life of the
living, with both religionists and non-religionists. In this thread, I am
specifically NOT interested in discussing an afterlife or any effects
thereon due to ones choices in this life. There is just as much evidence,
if
not more, that people reincarnate into physical beings as there is that
they
go to an eternal heaven or hell. In any case, I believe that one of, if
not
the main/only, reasons for Jesus' comming was to teach how to live in this
life. In fact, he said as much when asked about the nature of afterlife:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.
Now then, of what use or value is any religion to the living? If we set
aside the afterlife considerations for the moment, then we also eliminate
the peace of mind and/or assurance that one will exist in an acceptable
manner after this life. What then is left for this life? Is it not the goal
of most living to live a life of life, liberty and the pursut of happyness
free from unreasonable fear of not achieving these goals? Does not every
currently active religion teach that the achievement of these goals is
dependant upon treating others the same way one would hope to be treated?
Haven't all religions that required the taking of others lives to increase
ones own odds of achievement, fallen of their own weight? Isn't the reason
because people recognize that to maximunize their odds of achievement, they
must also maximunize that of others? Otherwise if it is ok for one to take
from others, mightn't it also be just as ok for others to take away?
Isn't the real value of a religion in the benefit it provides by teaching
how to live? Don't people that learn how to treat others well, live a better
life because of it? Isn't this what Jesus was teaching?
Peace, Larry
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From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: ICR speaks in San Diego
Date: 30 Jan 94 15:48:34
--------
EID:10ca 066234a3
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4cb30a
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
Anyone in the San Diego area might wish to listen to a creationist speak
in
person:
The Institute for Creation Research is sponsoring a talk by Kent Hovind,
popular Creation Evangelist, titled "Dinosaurs, Geologic Ages, and the
Christian" at the New Campus of Horizon Fellowship Church, 3401 Claremont
Drive, San Diego, CA, phone 619-277-4991 at 7PM Friday, February 25, 1994.
Their flyer says that Dr. Hovind is widely acclaimed as a speaker on
creationism in the south and east (over 550 messages per year), but this
is
his first appearance in San Diego. The lecture is free and ICR books and
tapes will be available for purchase.
If you go, be sure to look at the "Brainwashed?" booketlet by Gish. It cost
25 cents and is listed in their publications list under "Scientific Case
for
Creation" as scientific proof for creation. Yet on page 21 it still claims
men and dinos lived together even though the ICR has quietly dropped this
claim.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Fizgig
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:17:00
--------
EID:732c 1c3faa20
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
I beg your pardon, have I stumbled into the Flame area?
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From: Fizgig
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 31 Jan 94 22:17:00
--------
EID:a1dc 1c3fb220
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jerry Faust dated 01-29-94 ***
> You could fool me. What about his own personal destruction of Sodom
> and Gomorrah? What about the times he told the Jews to go kill all
> the
> men and married women in certain places, take all the virgins
> captive,
> and make slaves of them and all the male children? Sounds like
> violence to infants to me, when you kill their mothers and fathers,
> rape their older sisters, and make salves of them.
>
>
I understand, but one side note: The Jewish law had very strict rules about
¨
how to treat slaves. They had to be treated as people, not property, rape
¨wa
s STRICTLY forbidden, and every 50 years all slaves were set free. That
¨is a
few of the rules. Oh, and the rule about setting the slaves free had to
¨do w
ith the year of Jubilee. The slaves didn't have to stay slaves for the
¨whole
fifty, if you became a slave 5-10 years before the year of Jubilee, ¨that
was
all the time you had.
As I said, I understand your being upset, I just didn't want you to think
¨the
Isrealites were complete barbarians. Many slaves elected to stay with ¨there
masters (not owners) after there time was up. It was also very leagal ¨to
bu
y one's freedom, even slaves were required to have some kind of living ¨wage.
But that is only the law of the Torah, Im not about to say that it was always
followed (if youll pardon the word) religiously.
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From: Fizgig
To: Peter Vanderkam
Sub: Sequence of Gospels
Date: 31 Jan 94 22:57:00
--------
EID:ef2a 1c3fb720
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> MB> 2. Where do Q and Thomas fit into this order?
>
> LS> Q as I understand it is the lost predecessor to Matt/Mark. In
> that
> LS> respect, it should be used to identify the thelogical
> evolution/slant
> LS> of Matt/Mark......
>
> Q stands for the German word Quelle which means Source. As was
> mentioned
> above here by LS, tradition has it that it was one of the main
> sources
> on which the three synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are
> based.
The Quelle Gospel is a *theoretical* sorce that contains collections of
¨sayin
gs from the Gospels and is said to be the sorce from which all but John
¨drew.
There has been, however, no discovery of any such ancient text to my ¨knowle
dge. Though it may well exist, it is only supposed.
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> it is accepted that *none* were actual disciples of Jesus. But again,
> there are those who argue that possibly Matthew, and maybe even John
> were contemporaries of Jesus. (see my series on "Who wrote the
It has been accepted by quite a few bu certainly not all. In addition most
¨t
hat agree on this point are highly anti-supernaturalist. It has ¨traditionaly
been accepted that the Gospels of Mathew and John were those of ¨the desciple
s listed in the 4 Gospels. Also, the book of Mark was ¨traditionaly accepted
as being the work of Peter's amanuensis.
*** Quoting Peter Vanderkam to Larry Sites & M Burge. dated 01-29-94 ***
> LS> Thomas is an odd one, all that stuff about making female
> LS> male and 2 into one. I just wish I had a way of determining
> what the
> LS> meaning was to the writer/reader back then.
> Thomas was discarded for the longest time, but has recently
> re-surfaced
> and is getting more and more attention from the Biblcal scholars. It
> contains "Sayings by Jesus", and is highly Gnostic in outlook. This
> means that it was rather closely connected to the mystery religions
> of
> that time.
As to the Gospel of Thomas, its gnostic content is the chef reason the ¨source
was not cannonized. It was determined to be heritical. The ¨attention
it is
getting from Biblical scholars is quite naturaly from the ¨more gnostic
schol
ars. The Orthodox church still views gnosticism as being ¨heritical.
Now, that being said, PLEASE don't get the idea that Im looking for a fight!
I don't want to appear to challenge anyone to a debate but I did think that
¨t
here was some information being left out here. Traditional orthodoxy may
¨not
be the most popular veiwpoint these days but I didn't want anyone to ¨think
it
had died. We are still kicking around out there.
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From: Tim Epstein
To: All
Sub: Life, Death and Religion.
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:03:00
--------
EID:7429 1c3fa060
MSGID: 3:635/526.2 0f931724
G'day.
Though I am very much an Atheist, I have a broad range of friends in terms
of
religious beliefs. One in particular is a "born again" who considers himself
t
o be a part time missionary. I respect the charitable work he does, especially
with "street kids", though I cannot condone the religious indoctrination
that
comes with the help. The following story is an example of the danger that
lur
ks behind religion taken to an extreme.
My friend had spent a lot of time with a 15 year old street kid, who eventuall
y got a good job and moved in with my friend as a housemate. I got to know
the
kid pretty well, and was glad that he had straightened out very well, but
sho
ok my head at the religious conversion that was the price he unwittingly
paid.
A few months later, I visited my friend and we chatted about cars, computers,
and other things for quite a while, when my friend off-handedly mentioned
that
"by the way, (the kid) died a couple of days ago."
I was shocked as the kid didn't touch drugs or have any other life threatening
habits, and upset too, as I had come to know him pretty well by then. I
could
n't beleive that my friend
showed no signs of any distress at all, and mentioned the death in the same
ma
nner as last week's football scores.
It turned out that the kid had died from a severe asthma attack. My friend
was
there at the time, and being a qualified paramedic kept the kid breathing
whi
le he called an ambulance. My friend had to do CPR in the ambulance on the
way
to hospital, as the ambulance crew was down one member. In the end, he couldn
't be revived.
Again, my friend told me of these events in a casual manner. I found it
hard t
o believe that he wasn't emotionally affected, given his close involvement
whi
lst the kid was dying. When I diplomatically questioned him about this,
he exp
lained that he felt the kid was lucky because he had gone to heaven, whilst
my
friend was still here putting up with life. He further admitted that he
was a
ctually envious that the kid had gone to heaven so early.
At this stage, I was trying to accept this attitude in terms of the strenth
of
my friend's religion. However, he completely blew me away a few minutes
later
after he told me he had thought the kid would pull through. He admitted
that
if he had thought the kid was going to die, he wouldn't have tried to resussit
ate him! He talked about "God's will", and not wanting to blow the kid's
chanc
e of going to heaven etc.
I was horrified, not only at this bizarre relevation that appeared logical
to
him, but at the whole attitude to life that my friend posseses. The concept
of
religion as being a nice way to believe that something nice and usefull
can h
appen to us after death had been taken to the extreme that life itself is
just
something we have to put up with until death, which is what we should all
be
looking forward to as soon as possible without blowing our chances at heaven
b
y suiciding!
Afterwards, I realised my friend was still on a "high" from the death of
the k
id. He discussed it in exactly the same way as you would a friend who has
just
won a few million in the lottery and has gone off travelling around the
world
enjoying themselves. The kid's fatal asthma attack was literally considered
t
o be his lucky ticket outta here.
Regards,
Tim
--- FMail 0.94
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From: Rob Bamford
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Pope
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:56:28
--------
EID:98eb 1c3f8700
MSGID: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4d8ca3
PID: CNet 3.0
Hi Steve...
SB> Never heard of that. If you have evidence, I would like to see it.
I got the information out of a book called "Behold a Pale Horse".
I was also told that Chick Publications, another source, has also stated
the s
ame claims. As far as first hand proof goes, I don't have any to show.
It is
a rumor in my book, and a very interesting one at that!
Also, do you have an InterNet E-Mail address? I can't send FidoNet Mail,
but
would like to interact through InterNet if you do have an address for it.
Take Care!
Rob
--- CNet/3
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From: David Strickland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:20:25
--------
EID:d2c8 1c3f8a80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d4e951e
Fredric Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: Paluxy Revisited...
ds> ... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
FR> Hey! That one is mine from two years ago! I had forgotten
FR> it.
Well 'tis mine now!
David
!*! An atheist is but a mad, ridiculous derider of piety, but a hypocrite
makes a sober jest of god and religion; he finds it easier to be upon
his knees than to rise to a good action. - Alexander Pope
Quoter v1.3
... Bend the facts to fit the conclusion. It's easier that way.
---
ž TLX v3.30 ž
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From: Rob Vanderkam
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Monkey wrenching
Date: 01 Feb 94 00:20:00
--------
EID:5914 1c410280
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 2d4de680
On 01-29-94 Marilyn Burge wrote to Rob Vanderkam...
> DR> injury to their workers! Bull-f-shit! It is MONEY they care
> MB> And you are destroying property that doesn't belong to you in
> MB> order to make a political point. That is immoral.
> RV> So what gives the gov't the right to destroy the forests today?
> RV> Could it not be said that these forests belong to the future and
> If they were in private ownership, there would be nothing anybody
> could do to prevent them from being clearcut by their owners. If
> they belonged to no one, anybody could come along and homestead the
> land that they are on then log them once ownership was established.
> The fact that they belong to everybody gives no one person or
> coroporation the right to cut them down.
Hmmm.... But they still get cut down. And the fact remains that
people caring doesn't get votes so economics drives the law. And
too often the law says the trees come down, usually flying in the
face of studies supporting conservation. Why? Because there is no
ABSOLUTE proof that our ecosystem is collapsing.
That argument has always been good enough to allow the destruction
of resources. That's why scientists are beginning to become more
politically active. They know that they will never come up with the
burden of proof so they say its time to go with 'close is good enough'.
So some people decide spiking is helpful. If it causes a loss of
revenue, then people will actually pretend that the loss was not
inevitable and that the spikers are ruining the economy, not them.
The sad ultimate fact is that there are too many people to be sustained
in this mode on these resources. I wonder if religion will become
more popular once academic labour is no longer supported. I am
suggesting that it is access to information that has allowed people
to face the truthabout how God is a myth. Otherwise no one would dare
dispute the possibility of it being real.
For those of us who have information and still claim there is a God,
well, it seems that they prefer not to look and see, or they don't
want to take responsibility for their lives, ... or can't. IMO
Regards,
Rob
___
* OFFLINE 1.56 * Circular Definition: see Circular Definition
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Gary Glunz
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:21:00
--------
EID:dd27 1c3f9aa0
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387B
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist. (rv.2:9,3:9)(1jn.2:22)(jn.8:44)
I resent the hell out of that.
How dare you call me Jewish!
...asshole...
... "the devils from St. Louis..." -Ron Stringfellow
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Adam...
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:36:00
--------
EID:bbbb 1c3f9c80
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387C
SQ> How about we address your statement with another round of "Missouri
SQ> Show Me":
Sounds good to me ;-)
... Origin: Old Bastards, World Headquarters: St. Louis, MO.
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ASSHOLEANCE
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:04:00
--------
EID:1875 1c3fa080
MSGID: 1:100/4 863B387D
JF> Hope you don't mind me dropping in on your conversation.
JF> ! Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing -
JM> Don't mind at all brother. I need help. Being attacked by others :)
If Jesus really was "god", he could've easily pulled out his nails,
got down of his cross, and went home.
All you have to do is configure youre settings to no longer download
this conference, and quit whining and playing martyr :-)
Growing numbers of people find the christian tendency to include
everybody in their suffering/death fantasies to be revolting.
... Instead of being born again, why not just grow up?
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From: Sunjester
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Steve'S Pr For Your R
Date: 31 Jan 94 20:53:02
--------
EID:eeea 1c3fa6a0
MSGID: 1:387/57.0 2d4db5fe
While faking an orgas..AAHHH...AAAHH, I overheard about Steve'S Pr For Your
R
Su> So female homosexuality is OK?
JM> Apparently... I don't see anything against it.
Yet another win for feminism, and those who accept double standards
as a way of life.
Su> I hope from this "Law" that you never masturbate.
JM> Why should it affect me... I'm not Jewish or Christian if you
JM> think it applies to them too.
Oops, gonna have to fix that AI routine that does my replys for me.
... No, *I* don't worship Eris. But my software does...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Christianity
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:58:00
--------
EID:5887 1c417740
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed51ec
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f0911c1
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
FR> My first guess would be that you have never read the
FR> classical Christian mythologies, Jerry. The one thing that
FR> believers in your deities do not do is love the not-believer
Hmm...
The Salvation Army provides aid to thousands of poor and homeless, regardless
¨of religious affiliation.
The Methodist Student Movement at my current college (University of Texas
at ¨
San Antonio) is co-sponsoring a seminar entitled "Beyond Racism". Another
¨sp
onsor is the school's Office of Minority Affairs. This is in conjunction
¨wit
h Black history month, and is open to all.
German theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer was hanged for speaking out against
Adolf
¨Hitler.
Various Christian groups are providing disaster relief in Los Angeles.
One of my history books states that a Christian effort in the late nineteenth
¨century may have saved the lives of Native Americans who were being ¨slaughte
red by the government and greedy Whites...
These are a few examples of Christian love...
FR> Isis/Jesus/spirit/Satan/Mary et al.
Why are Satan and Mary considered dieties? The Bible never ascribes ¨ĻŌg·btæ
s»www»m§»|s»vI~'RwvI»IwvIo³c²Śū,,"Ņvig›«bæŖr§·RŁwærŪ¹´2'vw?k*P~sūv
›»-6"—ė¹]„o³@ėV›żv/Ģ¼R,ž¼ŗv¦ż/$'%rg3f³7ż³v–ßi…qk#ux(•ĻŠ ¨
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: BBSing
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:10:00
--------
EID:4f11 1c417940
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed54be
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d4a5336
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Thanks for the encouragement. Drop a note whenever you wish and i'll see
ya ¨
on the echo...
---
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--------
From: Jerry Faust
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Continuing a message...
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:20:00
--------
EID:805c 1c417a80
PID: RA 2.01 2650
MSGID: 1:387/303 52ed572a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0f0911c1
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
FR> When you try to include the better educated,
FR> critically-thinking into your indoctrination-motivated
FR> beliefs, you open yourself up to a great deal of, shall we
FR> say, "just deserts?" rather than if you had merely expressed
FR> your beliefs and managed to exclude those who manage to
FR> remain free.
FR> Fair warning; knowing that you're new here and all.
Actually, I'm not interested in indoctrination. I am not offended, angry,
¨et
c. if people disagree with my views. I enjoy discussion in this echo; I'm
¨no
t here to point a finger at anyone. I'm not a fundamentalist. I consider
¨m
yself an open-minded individual; I don't want to exclude anyone. In fact,
¨so
me of what has been said inthese discussions has encouraged me to o ¨re-examin
e some historical facts, particularly about the crusades.
If I've made you feel excluded, I apologize. Stay in touch, we'll talk
some ¨
more.
---
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: David Dahl
Sub: God DOOMit!
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:00:02
--------
EID:163b 1c418000
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881a
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First David Dahl Said: ]-----
> If it wasn't so funny, it'd be sad.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Heheheh....you summed up my opinion EXACTLY... :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Mick Howland
Sub: Exorcism update
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:01:03
--------
EID:4d84 1c418020
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881b
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Mick Howland Said: ]-----
> Mr Vollmer said he believed his wife had been possessed by demons
> when
> she came under the control of a satanic cult as a three-year-old.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
This stuff just gets wackier and wackier...
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:02:04
--------
EID:28ba 1c418040
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881c
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> I don't know how to respond to utter secular nonsense, Dan.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I'm not suprised.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Starwyn
Sub: Harvey Smith
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:03:05
--------
EID:a0e8 1c418060
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881d
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Starwyn Said: ]-----
> HS>My friend you got none of your off the wall exegetics from
> HS>Christianity. Any 10 year old in my congregation looks at your
> HS>bible quotes, and just laughs... You went so far to take things
> HS>out of context, and don't wish to admit that for 4,000 years the
> HS>pagans ruled the world, and made a mess out of it, and destroyed
> HS>10's of thousands of babies and perhaps millions, and hence you
> HS>want to be one of them who dash babies against the rocks and who
> HS>split open the bellies of all those who don't believe like you.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehhe...this guy is a joke...
Next crazed lunatic.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Don Martin
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:06:06
--------
EID:cba5 1c4180c0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 1090881e
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Don Martin Said: ]-----
> It is not the "'em" that remains unfound, but any evidence
> whatsoever for any such beings at all. How does this universal state
=
> SELECTIVE disbelief? Ear filtration on your part?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, the message was in reply to a post where he said something to the effect
o
f atheists not disbelieving in gods, but rather the gods that are currently
wo
rshipped (Allah, God, Yahweh, etc).
It seems as if there is some dissention between the atheists...hmm...
:)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Alan Hess
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Christianity
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:49:36
--------
EID:41bc 1c418e20
MSGID: 1:261/1000 3b2858c7
REPLY: 1:387/303 52eac6b8
In a missive of Jerry Faust (1:387/303)
writes to Fredric Rice:
JF> Most of the very early Christians were Jews, not caucasians.
You're a little mixed up here. Caucasian is a race, Judaism is a religion.
T
hose early Christians could have been Caucasian Jews, or non-Caucasian Jews,
d
epending on what race inhabited the Middle East at that time. *adh*
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Frederick Rice
Sub: Evidence and Plausability
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:18:24
--------
EID:03bc 1c3f6a4c
>I'm not entirely certain whether David is trying to be funny or
>insulting or whether he is just offering a statement of fact, Mike. He
>merely mentioned (correctly, in my opinion) that "sound reasoning" is
>not part of the methodology employed by Christians when pertaining to
>deity beliefs -- which you wished to discuss.
¨I thank you for your response. As I've said,I'm a Christian in my ¨faith,
and
in my philosophy I'm an objectivist. My reasons for ¨believing in God rest
up
on many pillars. I think that one of the best ¨places to begin may be the
subj
ect of origins. ¨By origins I mean the beginning of the universe. There
isn't
any ¨theory I've read from anyone that explains in reasonable terms the
¨means
by which the universe came into being. Most theories center upon ¨either
what
is called the "Big Bang", for lack of a better term, or ¨the oscillating
univ
erse, with forms and variations of both. I believe ¨that the evidence supports
the Big Bang theories. ¨Within this central theory there are sub-theories,
ho
wever at this ¨time I don't see the necessity of going into these. Now how
doe
s the ¨Big Bang theory lend credence to the existence of God? Please follow.
¨
The universe, if it began with the Big Bang, was at one time a ¨singularity
of
sorts. It contained gravity exceeding by forces ¨immeasurable anything even
s
tipulated by the smallest of Black Holes. ¨With what is known about Black
Hole
s, nothing except perhaps minor QM ¨radiation may escape it. The gravitational
pull exceeds the escape ¨velocity of even light. ¨Now at a point in time,
a v
ery precise and important point in time, ¨this singularity exploded,(exploded
may be imprecise)and in a velocity ¨that is universally constant, expanded.
Th
e energy required to escape ¨the tremendous gravitational forces isn't there
u
nder any theory put ¨forth that I've seen. From some theories I read, the
esti
mated energy ¨density at 10-43 second was 10 to the 119 per cubic centimeter,
while ¨the estimated gravity was over 10 to the 26 of earth. The equation
¨doe
sn't allow for the universe as we see it today.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Frederick Rice
Sub: Evidence & Plausability 2
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:19:32
--------
EID:c79f 1c3f6a70
Even if these figures are very imprecise, nothing observed anywhere ¨could
pro
vide the energy necessary to overcome such gravitational ¨forces. ¨Now I
state
d that the point in time of the explosion was very ¨important; here is why.
If
the Big Bang delayed even by a factor of ¨10 -57 from when it did explode,
it
would have collapsed into a mass ¨incapable for anything natural to dissolve
it. ¨Now we could say that this still doesn't mean that there is a God,
¨howev
er I believe that the evidence shows that only a God could have ¨set into
moti
on what we see today,in the manner in which life could ¨develope. ¨Now lets
co
nsider the eternal universe theory. Entropy doesn't allow ¨for matter to
be et
ernal. If you state that the universe is an open ¨system, where is the evidenc
e? The evidence so far shows that we are ¨in a closed system universe. ¨If
we
are in a closed universe, then entropy and the laws of ¨conservation demand
th
at in time the universe dies. I state that under ¨all observable evidence,
not
conjecture, we are in a closed ¨universe. ¨A closed universe requires a
begi
nning. From this we arrive at God as ¨the source of the beginning. ¨Now,
I hop
e that this suffices as a beginning of dialogue, or a ¨termination of discussi
on due to agreement. I hope for the former and ¨doubt the latter.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Discussion
Date: 1 Feb 94 10:36:20
--------
EID:0b83 1c41548a
> MS> No, it isn't. However what would convince you that
> it wasn't?
>
> Moses did NOT write the first five books? John the
Well, according to the b est available sources Moses did pen the first ¨5
book
s of the Bible, and John did pen the books named after him. ¨What is the
point
? I ask that knowing full well what you imply.
God Himself didn't take pen and paper and put His thoughts and message ¨down
f
or us. He inspired men to put down on parchment what we today ¨call the
Bible.
I take this as a point of faith, and it isn't, at least to me, a ¨point
of de
bate. I don't take it blindly though, for I've researched ¨the history of
the
bible and how it was put together.
The Bible itself convinced me that it is of a divine origin. Why, ¨because
of
a theme that starts in Genesis and is completed in Revelation ¨that hasn't
con
tradiction or evidence of human collusion.
If all you want to do is to argue that you believe differently, please ¨save
y
ourself the trouble of responding. On this point I'm very firmly ¨convinced,
a
nd all I can do is to give you the reasons, which would ¨take an involved
disc
ussion, to attempt to let you see what I have ¨seen.
Does the Bible stand up to scrutiny? Yes, and to answer in this post ¨a
questi
on put to me by another, and perhaps yourself, many people ¨in history have
se
t out to destroy the Bible, convinced that it was ¨a "human" invention.
Not on
e has ever been able to refute it in a ¨substantial manner. I know that
some b
elieve that they have found ¨contradiction in it, and certainly some will
refu
se to accept the ¨premise of miracles, but then again, the bible proposes
fait
h.
I hope that this answer explains my position on this. I think I know ¨yours.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Mike Staab
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: No contradiction
Date: 1 Feb 94 10:49:52
--------
EID:0b83 1c41563a
>
> And on top of that, we still have no understanding of how
> he could have
> been the one to purchase Potter's Field at the same time
Have you ever purchased something FOR somebody? The chief priests ¨took
the mo
ney that Judas threw back to them and purchased the Field ¨of Akeldama in
Juda
s' name. This is evidenced in Matt. 27:6-10
There is no contradiction in this story, except and unless you consider
¨the r
elating by two individuals of the events from different perspectives ¨as
a con
tradiction.
To Frederic Rice as well as yourself, you'll have to better than this ¨if
you
wish to "prove" the scriptures as a human invention or a hoax.
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: too many question marks?
Date: 30 Jan 94 20:32:42
--------
EID:bef1 1c3ea400
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4c1aa9
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Derek
Cla
yton:
RT> I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
RT> of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
RT> Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
RT> over a period in excess of 1900 years; was presented to an impartial
RT> _court_. If such a gathering had made a finding, showing CAUSE for
RT> deception resulting in an all encompassing delusion, I could understand
RT> their recommending all future evidence be treated as evidence of delusio
n.
RT> To my knowledge this has NOT taken place. So I will continue to view
RT> the evidence as evidence favouring the existence of God.
No offense, but that's an intensely ignorant position. What happens when
this impartial court reviews the testimony of all the Christians in the
world
, and then all the non-Christians in the world? Last count I was aware
of, th
e non-Christians outnumber you two to one (by more, if you don't consider
some
self-proclaimed Christians to be Christians), and so by your own rules of
"BI
G NUMBERS WIN!", you lose. 2/3 of the world's population are not Christians.
And incidentally, if numbers proves the game, what about the days when th
e Christians numbered in the thousands? Or the hundreds? At what point
were
the numbers sufficient to you as evidence?
I'll give you a hint: never. Reality is not a popularity contest, and
w
hether 1 person or all people hold a position, that does not make the position
necessarily correct, or even lend the position any weight.
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: too many question marks?
Date: 30 Jan 94 19:55:36
--------
EID:c65a 1c3e9ee0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4c121f
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499495
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Derek
Cla
yton:
RT> I am not aware of a hearing where the evidence, in the form of millions
RT> of sworn testimonies concerning the spiritual intervention of the same
RT> Lord, resulting in witness corroborated, (bible defined) life changes,
Life changes brought about by a god, or simply a belief in god?
DC>> Ancient Greeks were just as adamant in their belief that Zeus et. al.
DC>> were real. Were they right? Goths were sure that Odin et. al. were
DC>> real. Were they right?
RT> Are you suggesting they were wrong? Are you suggesting I am qualified
to
RT> _judge_ this matter? Are you suggesting you want to spend time on this
RT> topic? Are you suggesting I can figure out some kind of connection
betwe
en
RT> this and my topic?
Can't you figure out the connection? Egyptians were adamant that gods such
as
Osiris existed. Goths were positive that Odin existed. Now. christians
(amo
ng numerous other modern cults) are positive that God exists.
Logic tells is that they can't all be right. So, even IF one of these groups
is right, we know that personal testimony has been wrong much more often.
In
short, personal testimony is not very reliable.
In defense of personal testimony for the existence of god, you may show
how pe
rsonal testimony is used as evidence for other truths. For example, if
1 mill
ion people claimed to see a blue car it would be logical to conclude that
the
blue car existed just as I conclude that the Pacific ocean exists without
actu
ally having been an eyewitness to it's existence.
But is personal testimony the same? And is it reliable?
Just what senses are stimulated when someone (be it a goth, christian, jew,
et
c) experiences gods? I asked you to explain your personal experience with
god
and your answer was a vague reference to man meets god, man changes, etc
Coul
d you imagine trying to use such evidence in court?
D.A. - "Did you see the man commit the murder?"
Witness - "No. I didn't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste the murderer,
but I
know who it is because I can just feel it through personal revelation."
Even if I can get a million others to testify (through the usual christian
tac
tics - promise of reward, fear of hell, ram in into their heads from birth)
wo
uld we convict the poor bastard because of such testimony?
DC>> Personal revelation has been experienced by every possible believer,
DC>> for every possible belief.
RT> Do you really think so? Are you in a position to be privy to this
RT> information? How can anyone know what EVERY believer of every faith
has
RT> experienced? Is this suposed to lessen the evidence I am discussing?
There are likely few exceptions. Something motivated the egyptians to dedicat
e astounding architecture to their gods, motivated goths to fanatic battles,
t
he christians to launch the crusades...
It lessens your evidence as was stated above. Personal "religious" testimony
is not reliable. It is a vague feeling, by some non-existent sense. It
has b
een experinced by many religions which can't all be right (if any).
RT> There is nothing particularly special about my testimony, it's the same
a
s
RT> millions of others. Man asks to meet God, God meets man. Man changes.
Lov
e,
RT> joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control become importan
t
RT> to the man. The strength of the evidence is in the number of similar
RT> testimonies available and the length of time this has been happening.
Was mass belief in Osiris by Egyptians strong evidence because of the number
o
f believers and length of belief?
Self-delusion is self-delusion no matter how many experience it.
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Bible
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:10:50
--------
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G'day John:
In a msg of , John Musselwhite writes to Steve
Bedard
:
JM> VERY few claim historical evidence for Jesus' existence is really
JM> lacking.
I know I've asked this before (I do tend to repeat myself), but why is it
that very few claim historical evidence for Jesus' existence is really lackin
g? By "why", I mean historical reasons, not psychological.
Incidentally, although I'm setting myself up for embarrassment if I don't
get in, just thought I'd mention that I put my eggs in two baskets, and
only
bothered applying to the M.A. program at UCalgary . Might be taking you up
on you
r offer re: polling mail off of you come September.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Adam...
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:18:02
--------
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G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Bamford writes to All:
RB> do I take such comments as empty ridicule, but warmly recall the scriptur
e
RB> that tells me that 'the things of God are foolishness' to ones like
you.
RB> You have stated as much in your own words, and the Bible supports you
100
%!
Let's examine this self-defense claim a little more closely.
Rob, let's assume I publish a book that is 100% bullshit. However, withi
n the book I place a disclaimer that non-believers will consider the book
nons
ense, which simultaneously offers further evidence for the validity of the
boo
k. Yet, we know the book is a crock.
Now, when the believer (we'll say some people have actually fallen for it
) believes, and we say, "Look, this is a crock, and here's why", he's simply
g
oing to point to Chapter X verse iv and say, "The Great Wunder said you'd
say
that! The Wundericron said you'd call my book foolishness, so it must be
true!
"
Clearly, this defense is not sufficient to vindicate any book, be it Wund
ericron or Bible.
Consider this the next time you think the fact that your Bible warns of
n
on-believers and their responses is any indication of the validity of said
tex
t. It's not.
You may have other reasons for thinking the Bible is the inspired word of
a deity, but that shouldn't be one of them.
RB> But it also says that your eyes can be open to the Good News of what
Chri
st
RB> has done for you, and you can have a regeneration experience
Is this anything like regeneration a la Doctor Who? Personally, I think
I liked the show so much because it presented the ability to change personalit
ies credibly in a major character. Not always for the better, mind you,
but a
t least credibly.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Worrell
Sub: Proof
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:26:10
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Worrell writes to Dave Keeton:
DW> You're pretty smart for a fundy. If God exists, the he is all knowing
DW> (by definition). If God is all knowing, then he knows that I will not
DW> believe without concrete evidence. Since concrete evidence is not
DW> forthcoming, either God does not exist or he doesn't care if I believe
DW> or not.
Not only that, but God would know EXACTLY what would convince you as to
h
is existence.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Mike Warnke
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:30:46
--------
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G'day Aaron:
In a msg of , Aaron Boyden writes to Michael Malone:
Aaron, you mentioned something a while back about Ayer's after-death expe
rience being written up rather well in some journal (or was it Flew? actually,
it was Flew, wasn't it?). Do you have a citation for this? I'd like to
pick
it up, so a title at least would be helpful.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rob Fargher
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:32:36
--------
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G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Fargher writes to Charlie J.
Ray:
RF> Chuckles, my boy, I doubt very much if anybody in this echo would
deny
RF> that the historical figure known as Jesus Christ or Joshua bar Joseph
RF> actually existed, was born in Bethelem, had a pretty good philosophy
RF> about life and suffered an agonizing death after being nailed to a cross.
My hand is going up.
RF> This is not an extraordinary claim nor an appeal to the supernatural.
RF> The mere statement that such a human existed doesn't require
RF> extraordinary proof; it's in the ho-hum realm.
True enough -- it is in the ho-hum realm. However, if the evidence for
t
he mere existence of Christ is highly inconclusive, there seems no need
to eve
n bother with the supernatural trappings.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Objective
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:36:22
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
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G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
>> Sure. Do you consider your Christian theism to be
>> reasonable/rational?
MS> Mr. Wunder, thanks for responding.
No problem (although this response is probably a little overdue -- hard
d
rive problems). Incidentally, don't call me Mr. Wunder unless you have
to. Cu
rrently, no one has to, and that includes yourself.
MS> Yes, without a doubt I consider that Christianity IS the most reasonable
MS> and rational expression of understanding of God and His plans.
Ok -- why? Incidentally, you seem to be using Christianity to explain Go
d (if I interpret the above correctly). I'm not giving you that much --
you h
ave to evidence the leprechauns before I'll talk about pots of gold at the
end
of the rainbow. Likewise, you can't use theism to substantiate Christianity
until you've substantiated theism.
MS> I'm sure
MS> that you understand that in every sense faith is a leap from the observab
le
MS> to the implied; in Christianity the leap is not so far as in every other
MS> form of theism.
I disagree, but there's no need for me to go that far. Do you feel that
theism is a logical step from the observed to the implied (ie. can you induce,
or aduce a theistic deity?)?
MS> In the explicit sense, Christianity more perfectly gives
MS> explanation to observable evidence. So far, this is only a defense of
the
MS> reasonableness of Christianity.
What observable evidence does Christianity explain better than any other
hypothesis?
MS> Given more specific questions, I'd be glad
MS> to continue this.
I've given you a few, although if there's any uncertainty, I'll be happy
to clarify.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Rice
Sub: Proof[sic]
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:42:20
--------
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to Dave Keeton:
DR> As yet, there is no such thing as a theory of creationism,
DR> therefore science and scientists do not support it. I have
DR> documented and well-referenced evidence that the ICR cult
DR> distributes lies and deliberately misrepresents real
DR> scientists. In fact, the ICR cult DEMANDS that their members
DR> take an occult oath before they may join the cult-+- which
DR> is in opposition to how science opperates.
Interesting. For my term paper in the sociology of sects, cults and new
religious movements I've opted to do the topic of the ICR. Any information
yo
u could send my way would be appreciated.
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Worrell
Sub: Revenge of the Nerds
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:50:06
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
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G'day David:
In a msg of , David Worrell writes to Tyler A.
Wunde
r:
AB>> Actually, we do have at least one philosopher here.
TAW>> Make it two. An arrogant undergraduate here.
DW> Three, if a minor in philosophy counts...
Well, that depends on our definition of philosopher. If we speak loosely
within academia, then you're in. If we want to be really loose (and a case
c
ould be made for this -- Fred Rice is a scientist, despite having no official
credentials), we could include anyone who considered themselves a philosopher.
Or we could be real tightwads and say that only people who have published
in philosophical journals are considered philosophers, but that, I suspect,
w
ould reduce the number of philosophers on this forum to 0.
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Disproven?
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:20:16
--------
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G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Bedard writes to Derek Clayton:
DC>> Is there sin in heaven? That is, once a person gets to heaven do
DC>> they ever
DC>> sin?
SB> I can not know for sure. I would tend to say no, yet Lucifer and his
SB> angels sinned while they were in Heaven.
Revelations chapter 21 (especially vs. 4) seems to imply that there is no
sin
in heaven. However, I will pursue this from both perspectives.
But first, if there is sin in heaven then what happens when a sin is comitted?
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Messiah
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:55:14
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
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G'day Joshua:
In a msg of , Joshua Lee writes to Steve Bedard:
JL> BTW, I expected to get fire from both sides, since as far as I know,
I'm
JL> the only atheist apostate ever on HOLYSMOKE, but so far it's only coming
JL> from the Christian camp, specifically, you. ;-)
If you change that to "legitimate atheist apostate" you may well be corre
ct. I assume this means you've turned back to the Jewish faith?
If so, this is actually good: I can use you as an example of why, if peo
ple converting from atheism to religion X vindicates religion X, then X
is Jud
aism. As I'm usually talking to Christians during these arguments, you're
a g
ood case to have against their using this argument to vindicate Christianity.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:03:42
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
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G'day Mike:
In a msg of , Mike Staab writes to Martin Goldberg:
MS> through His Son Jesus Christ. Now as to evidence, there are several
forms
MS> which are to be considered. We may consider the ontological arguments;
we
MS> may consider the arguments based upon the myths; or we may consider
the
MS> evidence of historicity. As to the first; Aquinas and Aristotle both
MS> demonstrated the nature of first and efficient cause. Are you familiar
wi
th
MS> this? There are other ontological arguments,
To my knowledge, these are not ontological arguments. For the ontologica
l argument, see Anselm. As for Aquinas and Aristotle's first and efficient
ca
uses, that is the cosmological argument (or variants of).
MS> but this ought to suffice for
MS> now. As to the second, the nature of myths indicates a truth behind
them.
What does this mean? Are you saying that as "every myth has a kernel of
truth", that we can assume the Christian lock, stock and barrel is legitimate?
MS> Not that the myths themselves are necessarily true, but that they convey
MS> events,occurances and ideas that exceed the normalcy of the day to day
MS> events. They lead into other fields of investigation. Then there is
the
MS> historical evidence. Consider Jesus Christ, Did he exist?
I don't think the evidence for his existence is adequate -- the evidence
for his supernatural, divine status is likewise inadequate.
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Kieth Anderson
Sub: Evidence.
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:54:48
--------
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PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Kieth:
In a msg of , Kieth Anderson writes to Hector Plasmic:
KA> verdict. Are you willing to hear this evidence and except the verdict
no
KA> matter what the demands are? To give an example in a court of law the
jur
y
KA> judge and lawyers may not have seen the crime being committed but none
th
e
KA> less a verdict is reached that has consequences. I await your reply.
I would like to see your evidence.
Derek W. Clayton
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Re: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 31 Jan 94 10:41:00
--------
EID:d3c1 1c3f5520
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef4
-=> Quoting Larry Sites to Mike Staab <=-
LS> BUNK! There are NO verses in the bible where Jesus "directly states
LS> that He is God incarnate". There are a few verses that christians
LS> INTERPERATE as such. Most of such verses can as validaly be
LS> interperted that Jesus claimed to know and do the will of a god
LS> distinct from him in all ways, ie he was not god but believed in god.
LS> For every verse you can provide in support of your claim, I will
LS> provide 2 in support of mine. Care to see where the evidence leads
us.
LS> John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not
LS> alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
LS> John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son
LS> of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of
LS> myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Let me get this straight, you read John 8 and came to the conclusion that
He was just a man who believed in God! Whooo Yaaa.
Wadda bout, verse 12 I AM the light of the world: he that follows ME shall
not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light Of Life! (Eternal!)
verse 18: I AM one that bear witness of MYSELF, and the Father that SENT
ME beareth witness of ME!
Verse 19: Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should
have known my Father ALSO.
Verse 23: Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I
AM
not of this world.
and verse 42: If God were your father, you would love ME: for I proceeded
forth and came from GOD; neither came I of myself, but HE SENT ME.
MORE THAN A MAN! This is God's Son we are talking about.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Avoiding Heaven
Date: 31 Jan 94 10:44:33
--------
EID:a02e 1c3f5580
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef5
reply this Foxe's Book of Martyrs, suggested read.
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Marrow <=-
dm> Why do dedicated christians and other christians who
dm> believe they will go to heaven when they die try to
dm> live for aslong as possible and avoid it?
FR>
FR> We have already asked the local believers in the Christian deities to
FR> explain that one. As I recall, most closed their eyes and hit the
FR> next key to avoid having to admit that they hold no strong faith.
FR> And, as I recall, only one participant tried to justify it with a
FR> "that would be testing my deities" type of non-excuse.
FR> 'Heaven' is a very frightening place since it is death.
FR>
When you're filled with the Light of Life, and having such an interesting
time Praising the Lord, why give it up? Maybe that dose of eternal life
in us makes it harder for us to switch locations. I've seen some folks
take what I would judge as _too long_ to die and I've seen some who time
their exit to perfection, in grace. Perhaps the painfull emotions we feel
at the loss of loved ones, the ones we are _qualified_ to discuss with the
_nasty boys_; hold us back from presenting our tears to your hard hearted
judgement. We do miss them.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Re: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:14:43
--------
EID:1a85 1c3f59c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef6
Reply this?
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Johnny Mckinney <=-
> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really exists.
SA> You've overlooked the aspect of showing theists how silly and
SA> unfounded their belief systems are.
SA> We dissect their beliefs here, to expose the contradictions and
SA> inconsistencies, paradoxes and hypocrisies, bigotry and hatred,
SA> and fallacies of false cause... just to name a few aspects of
SA> Contradictianity, Hypocristianity, and crucifixations.
Let me get this straight, you want to expose my PARADOX, whooo yaaa!
You want to dissect my foolish appearing belief that is FOUNDED ON TRUTH!
Amen, glory to God, praise to the Most High!!
As a rule of thumb, when you use so many big words, check the dictionary,
you might get caught with your pants down.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Re: Evidence
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:35:20
--------
EID:1eac 1c3f5c60
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef7
-=> Quoting Derek Clayton to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
DC> G'day Richard:
DC>
DC> In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes
DC> to Mike Staab:
RT> those you disagree with. Anyway MS I certainly agree there is _evidence
RT> for the IDEA_, most open minds would agree methinks.
RT> They used this _no evidence_ crap on me, I think you will find HP has
RT> changed the meaning of the word so it no longer agrees with the dictionar
y
RT> definition or judicial definition. The sworn testimony of millions of
RT> people over 1900 years, concerning a life changing experience, supported
by
RT> independant witnesses is not evidence! Astounding eh what?
DC>
DC> Testimony of personal revelation is evidence...but for what? Social
DC> programming? Self-delusion? Elation at the thought of avoiding
DC> death? Your god?
You are gettin carried away DC, I already sent a reply to you, concerning
this argument. Just a tip, edit FIRST then send one attack, I've just too
many nasty boys to deal with! Have a good day and may the Lord reveal Himself
to YOU! My reply is titled _too many question marks_.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Drew Webber
Sub: Re: fundamentals
Date: 31 Jan 94 11:40:40
--------
EID:aac4 1c3f5d00
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef8
-=> Quoting Drew Webber to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
-=> Quoting Richard Thorneycroft to Jason Rosendale <=-
RT> You're funny. The atheists post a four part message attempting to
RT> explain God's Laws for the operation of His universe. Like layers of
RT> an onion, each discovery leads to more mystery, more exceptions and
RT> indications that much more remains to be discovered. And we of the
RT> faith are part of a spiritual union, will we now be subjected to an
RT> insulting and paternalistic diatribe from an athiest, explaining the
RT> workings of the Holy Spirit?
DW>
DW> Well, I find it pretty damn insulting when someone claims to know the
DW> way the whole universe is ran because a old book and their parents
DW> told them that is the way it is, and then shrug off any attempt to
DW> contridict those cliams with known facts...
DW>
Oh! this one goodie goodie. What a JOY! Whooo yaaa! Here we go.
Read my lips, I make no claim to know ANYTHING about the way the whole
universe is run. (I can't even figure out the pretty pattern in my dog's
coat!) My claim as a fundy would be that God the creator knows His
creation and His Laws of the Universe. Seems you guys are the ones spending
all the time and money trying to figure out His laws. Most of us just live
with em. After all, you can't really change them, can you?
You know the really silly thing? There's a bunch of nasty boys out there
trying to use a few of God's operating laws, they stumbled across, to try
and prove God does not exist! Talk about pissing into the wind! (With your
money!)
I could have been really mean and insulting, believe it or not I used to
be
among those that are, but the sweet Lord has mellowed me. Have a great day
and the Lord bless you (good thing!).
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: fundamentals
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:13:53
--------
EID:df58 1c3f69a0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef9
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
rt> The atheists post a four part message attempting to
rt> explain God's Laws for the operation of His universe.
FR>
FR> That's like saying Christians post messages attempting to explain the
FR> mechanics behind fairies abilities to sprinkle dew drops around the
FR> yard.
Exactamungo, what do I know about _fairies_, he he.
FR> Your you deities are not believed in by the better educated,
FR> critically-thinking populace, don't you think it's funny to continue
FR> to project your own irrational, unfounded superstitions upon them?
I had no idea, O Better Educated One, that this echo reflected such elevated
thought! Does Your Eminence desire I leave the fairie yard? I thought I
was
just exchanging scatology in the barn yard. We usually do our recruiting
among the unwashed masses, ya know!
FR> What you've found is that physical laws do not require any of your
FR> deities and that the natural processes around you are direct results
FR> of natural, physical laws. Concocting deities to explain that which
FR> you do not understand is, of course, entirely up to you
Well, not entirely up to me. By the way it's what YOU found not me and
if I were you I'd wash my hands of it.
FR> yet don't you
FR> think that a rational approach to understanding is of better value
FR> than to merely quip "well, my deities did it" and stop thinking
FR> enirely?
Isn't it odd, I find my approach is like the beginning of wisdom. You know
I don't think anyone can _stop thinking_. One track, narrow, obsessive
biased, arrogant, autocratic, but not at a halt.
rt> Like layers of an onion, each discovery leads to more mystery,
rt> more exceptions and indications that much more remains to be
rt> discovered.
FR>
FR> Yep. The universe and natural, physical laws devoid of any deities
is
FR> a wonderful, exciting avenue of inquiry, isn't it? And isn't it also
FR> a shame that those incapable of attaining the cognative ability to
FR> understand these processes must lump all that they do not know into
FR> unseen superfriends?
Not, if what you are spending the time and money on discovering, is what
our
unseen superfriends put there in the first place. (Superior _cognative
ability_, isn't that a bit pompous, even for you?)
rt> And we of the faith are part of a spiritual union,
FR>
FR> Is "spiritual union" what we're calling ignorance these days?
No. We call ignorance, _ignorance_ these days.
rt> will we now be subjected to an insulting and paternalistic
rt> diatribe from an athiest, explaining the workings of the
rt> Holy Spirit?
FR>
FR> Ghosts are an interesting phenomena. Being psychological
FR> manifestations of internal conflict within the mind of the believer,
FR> ghosts perform and act exactly as the believers preconceptions direct
FR> it to perform and act -- much like believers in aliens from other
FR> planets perform and act according to the preconceptions within the
FR> mind of the believer.
Whooo Yaa, you did it! (I'm counting to 10, my wife told me I should try
to be less sarcastic.)
rt> How can anyone with so much experience be unaware
rt> that _evidence_ in the form of ever changing _fundamentals_
rt> and His story can be interpreted in more than one way?
FR>
FR> If you have any evidence at all, please share it. If you think that
FR> the mythologies you may or may not believe in are "unchanging," me
FR> thinks the one could do well to mayhaps read them once.
I refer you to the on going debate about evidence, you can latch on to
my reply to Derek Clayton re. too many question marks.
rt> Most Christians have always maintained the necessity of the
rt> presence of the Holy Spirit in converting the individual to
rt> the faith.
FR>
FR> Whereas what we really find is that indoctrination at an early age is
FR> the first requirement. Then inability to look at the history of the
FR> Christian death cult critically is also another requirement. The
FR> inability to reason rationally and critically is another requirement.
FR> Of course one might simply remove most of the brain and acquire the
FR> same result.
After this one FR's head released itself from his body and bumped against
the ceiling. Sorry, but doesn't all that bombast make you feel light headed?
FR> ~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
Thank the Lord for that.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Playing by the rules....
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:15:27
--------
EID:b866 1c3f69e0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efa
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
FR> #include Martin Goldberg
MG> I'd love to see god make himself known to ANYONE.
rt> Maybe you have been in the wrong place at the right time
rt> or maybe the right place at the wrong time, are you asking
rt> YHWH to make himself known to you?
FR>
FR> Neat. We've seen the Heisenberg Uncertainty Deity played before.
FR> These deities exist until they are looked for at which time they
FR> vanish.
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
rt> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
rt> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is obviously
rt> in error!
FR>
FR> o There has been no 'witness' that you can provide evidence for
FR> to support the irrational belief that there are invisible
FR> superfriends.
Please refer to on going _evidence_ debate. ref is in your other reply.
No offence but your inflated opinion does not establish sufficient
cause to dismiss all evidence as deluded. Where WILL we find an
unbiased judge? It's not this guy.
MG> Can you provide some?
rt> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony, YHWH
rt> has made Himself known to me.
FR>
FR> We have a participant who has admitted to hearing voices in his head
FR> since a very early age. Very often he is irrational, given to rants,
FR> and incapable of concocting a rational sentence. He, like you, has
FR> had deities "make known to" him.
FR> Perhaps if you described your experience we might be able to see where
FR> you were led astray. What we usually find are that people are quite
FR> mistaken in their experiences which are mundane yet have a
FR> predisposistion to believe that what they experienced was "proof
FR> positive" of deities, flying saucers, and "psychic attacks."
rt> I say He exists.
Sorry FR your argument has been posed, see reply D. Clayton _too many
question marks_. (You guys all read the same pamphlet?)
FR>
FR> Which one of the Christian panthon? And why only the one out of the
FR> thousands posited by humanity? It seems strange to be able to pick
FR> and choose which unevidenced deities to believe in while ignoring the
FR> rest.
rt> There are many thousands of testimonies to corroborate this
rt> witness certainly enough to establish a _ground for belief_.
FR>
FR> And yet none have a rational reason for doing so. As such, it is a
FR> belief grounded in wishful thinking.
rt> By definition this is evidence.
FR>
FR> It is groundless assertion not backed up by any testable, falsifiable
FR> means. As such, it is belief, not evidence.
You're behind FR, see current reply noted above.
FR> ~*~ The word you're groping for is "blasphemy." - Hector Plasmic
I don't normally lack for words, now a shovel, thats another matter.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Tear a new one.....
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:57:25
--------
EID:ef19 1c3f6f20
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efb
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
FR> #include Hector Plasmic
RT> The _all knowing_ God, who sees the future in all detail
RT> but still presents choice in the present, is a concept
RT> that goes beyond scripture.
HP> And right into the realm of the ludicrous.
rt> Debatable certainly but provoking laughter I think not.
FR>
FR> Hector is quite correct. If you're talking about the Christian
FR> deities, they couldn't even forsee their own defeat in one of the
FR> myths when the Christian deities tried to wipe people out who had
FR> chariots of iron. One would expect these "all knowing gods" who "see
FR> the future in all detail" would give it a rest when they detect iron
FR> chariots.
Exactamungo, that's why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's your
point?
FR> One of the Christian deities even told its followers that it would
FR> return from the dead within the life time of some of its
FR> contemporaries. One would expect this "all knowing deity" who can
FR> "see into the futyre in all detail" to at least be able to get its own
FR> zombe reanimation right.
Exactamungo, that is why I said it goes beyond scripture. What's your point?
(Patient eh what?)
HP> Do you have _any_ evidence at all that such a being exists, other
HP> than in the fevered imaginations of you and your fellow lunatics?
rt> Good point, to exist in the imagination is to exist,
FR>
FR> Within the imagination only. Mental images concocted reguardless of
FR> reason (or, if I may, lack of reason) exist as mental images. They
FR> are not manifest in any other way -- unless someone would like to be
FR> the first to present some new and exciting evidence.
How about some old and dull? How about that _ghosts_ crock ya posted me,
didn't you imply ghosts manifest themselves from the imagination? Don't
ask me you wrote it.
rt> afterall you only exist to me as a group of dots on
rt> a screen and the memory of our encounter will be
rt> mercifully brief!
FR>
FR> Those pixels are not making outrageous claims which are unevidenced
We aren't talking about the same HP then!
FR> yet is making rather mundane comments. If you were talking about the
FR> Christian pantheon, Hector is entirely correct in pointing out that
FR> the dead don't have the habit of walking again. People don't usually
FR> talk to snakes unless they are suffering from mental diffiCULTies.
FR> It is perfectly acceptable to make mundane claims about people and
FR> places and events. When outrageous claims are appended to them --
FR> reguardless of reason -- then otrageous evidence is required.
Bla bla bla, why not just let Hector answer, I usually reply, you can
read it.
rt> I am seldom fevered but have had moments of
rt> insight and creative persuit when in the state.
FR>
FR> One wonders if a belief in invisible superfriends could be considered
FR> "insight." Certainly it is creative.
Gotcha wondering eh?
HP> If so, please present it. If not, stuff your unfounded
HP> assertions where the sun don't shine. Thanks.
HP> Tear a new one.
rt> _please & thanks_ such polite, violent anal abuse.
FR>
FR> You may be playing the interpretation game again with Hector's words.
FR> It has been noted that people who have to interpret their mythologies
FR> in order to salvage an unworkable belief in deities fall into the
FR> habit of doing so.
FR> There are many places where "the sun don't shine" which could be
FR> stuffed without unfounded and, if I may say so, silly occult
FR> assertions.
You pompous twit and I suppose you will _enlighten_ me as to the true
meaning of TEAR A NEW ONE.
FR>
FR> Which moon might that be? If you are thinking of the Earth's Moon,
it
FR> is generally capitalized else the specific moon is offered with its
FR> name. Like deities which are not named, there are many moons and
FR> talking about one without being specific is entirely ambiguious.
Stop trying to be so brilliant. Hector used the word _lunatic_, get it?
Why don't you just let Hector answer his own mail. I'm not impressed.
What is YOUR point? What IS your point? What is your POINT?
Don't go away mad, just go away.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Hector the Horrible
Date: 31 Jan 94 13:59:43
--------
EID:5de4 1c3f6f60
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efc
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
> HP> In the imagination. Now, you have any evidence that your gods are
> HP> anything more than imaginary?
RT>Ah well, here we go again. Dear Hector, poor heart, there is a vast
RT>body of evidence existing. The sworn testimony of tens of millions of
RT>individuals, evidence of a spiritual influence that changed their lives.
HP> Drugs change lives. Bigotry changes lives. Falling off the roof
HP> changes lives.
Yup.
HP> Does religion change lives for the better more often than anything
HP> else? Do religious folk act any better than non-religious folk? Sure
HP> doesn't seem that way.
Religion eh? Is that what we are talking about? Sorry, I've been in the
wrong echo all this time. How embarrasing, I feel like such a twit, I
thought we were talking about EVIDENCE.
HP> Have religious folks been fighting wars and killing and torturing
HP> their neighbors over religion? Sure seems that way if you read a
HP> history text or a newspaper.
Guess so eh mon. I'd say a lot of em need the Lord! or at least read
the book.
HP> Should sworn testimony be accepted over empirical evidence? No one
HP> seems to think so.
Whoooahaaa, here we go, pedal to the metal! Definition of empirical
evidence, based on the results of experiment, observation or EXPERIENCE.
Sworn testimony regarding experience is by definition, guess what?
Empirical evidence. Perhaps _no one_ should read the dictionary.
HP> Can you validate these "testimonies" as anything more than madness,
HP> hallucination or lies? Can you even produce a million "sworn
HP> testimonies?" Even if you can, are you aware that "argument by
HP> popularity" is defective (see examples above)?
A small sampling of 100,000 Christian Testamonies, given 10 minutes
consideration each, would take over 6 years to admit. I'm sure a
million could be forthcoming, ya got 60 years? Who said you were
popular? or is that poplar with a knot in it?
RT>You may not like it, but in order to discount it you must change
RT>the meaning of the word _evidence_.
HP> Really?
yup.
HP> evidence n. Somthing that furnishes proof; the data on which a
HP> judgement or conclusion is based. Something that
HP> serves to indicate, suggest, or make evident.
HP> Just what about your unsubstantiated claims do you find to be
HP> evidence?
Substantiation is brought about through presentation of the body of
evidence. (bit of cart before horse thinking there). How can someone
present that which you say does not exist? Gotta play by the rules.
You must have a real cheapo dictionary there man, mine says: that which
makes evident: information in a law case; a witness; sign; indication;
ground for belief; TESTIMONY; proof; attestation; corroboration;
(Webster's/1965/edited by Doc Allee).
RT>... another tiresome ad hominem.....
HP> Don't allow the shoe to fit. It's easy; just don't bother to believe
HP> that for which there is no evidence, and don't claim that for which
HP> you can provide no evidence.
I must comment on the improved quality of this communication. It's been
a pleasure jousting with you. Have a good day (someday with God I hope)
and keep the tolerance and pleasure switches on.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Rich playing pot, and faring poorly otherwise.
Date: 31 Jan 94 14:38:44
--------
EID:57b9 1c3f74c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efd
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
> HP> Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lies, hallucination or
> HP> madness, often even to (or particularly to) the one doing the
> HP> testifying.
RT>When the personal testimony is corroborated and is similar to
RT>millions of other testimonies and takes place over 1900 years
RT>that constitutes legitimate evidence.
HP> First, you haven't produced "millions of other testimonies."
HP> Second, a lot of folks believed in Odin and Zeus at one time. I'm
HP> sure they'd have been willing to testify. Do you accept that as
HP> evidence of Odin and Zeus?
Hector, no offence but I took time to cover pretty much this argument
with Derek Clayton in _too many question marks_. Re. _millions of
testimonies_ fundies can be called upon to submit their personal
testimonies, given proper circumstance (pearls before swine, and all that).
A lot have independant corroboration re. life change (that son of a gun
was lusting after my wife, now I love the bastard, he just gave me the
shirt off his back....an stuff like that there). 1,000,000 testimonies
would take about 60 years to go thru at 10 minutes per. So much to say
and so little time. I think you know the organization is there to deliver
that many to an independant adjudicator for a finding.
HP> A lot of folks would have testified (and many probably still would)
to
HP> the substandard intelligence of non-whites at one time. Do you accept
HP> that as evidence?
No offence, but I find exactly that attitude being expressed by the nasty
boys in this echo. Lack of _higher education_=substandard intelligence.
Now don't give me some bullshit that you don't put that up as one of the
_givens_(self evident). You want ME to join your cult? (Ya see the
blacks didn't have any schools, hard to show your brilliance when you
can't read or write, bitch of a world eh?)
HP> A whole slew of folks have testified to seeing UFOs. Do you accept
HP> that as evidence?
HP> How about all those flat earthers, who would swear that anyone with
HP> any common sense could see the world must be flat? Do you accept that
HP> as evidence?
This has been covered with Derek Clayton, lets keep this organized, attack
my reply there.
HP> Face it, old bean, a lot of folks believing something doesn't affect
HP> reality.
Well old bean, I think you got it. I've been saying that about evolution
for eons.
Thanks for the quality attack. Pleasure doin business witcha.
Chow for now. He cares about you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Re: The evidence is in. You're not ice.
Date: 31 Jan 94 15:10:19
--------
EID:af7f 1c3f7940
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efe
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
ML> Richard Thorneycroft, who thought juvenile water was kid stuff,
ML> said to Marty Leipzig:
That's over my head, but I've got my ear to the ground, the herd is
moving.
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT> obviously in error!
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
RT> Back off mad dog,
ML> Down boy. Sit. Roll over. Beg forgiveness. Here; a bowl a kibbles
ML> and bits for the frothing fundy.
Woof!
RT> what allegory and legend?
ML> The Bible in all it's wonderful little impossibilities and the
ML> personal testimonies of those who have trouble accepting reality
ML> and mortality.
RT> Are you on drugs?
ML> Hardly. You're the one so intoxicated with ancient myth and
ML> fallacial stories that one might venture that you're but a
ML> weary traveler who rarely ventures into the realm of materiality;
ML> preferring the drug of "belief" over a dose of reality.
RT> This
RT> is a definition of _evidence_.
ML> Baloney. Evidence consists of data and verifiable,
ML> observable facts. Your hearsay and "witnessing" is nothing more
ML> than hopeful wishes wrapped up in the fervent desire of an
ML> illusory afterworld.
Please ref. Derek Clayton reply _too many question marks_ for current
state of the dis-union.
RT> Textbook stuff.
ML> Only if your text is the Bible. As I say; supernatural hearsay,
ML> legend and parable without basis in actuality.
RT> Brain dead???
ML> Yes, it would appear that you are. Just think, you still get
ML> full credit for being alive. Amazing.
RT> (satire
RT> only, calm down.).
ML> Mine's not.
You nasty man you!
RT> I say He exists.
ML> "You" say? Big fucking deal. You can say all day long that Mars
ML> is populated by Little Green Men, that the Earth is flat and that
ML> ancient astronauts landed and shook up the Aztecs. The mere
ML> statement that "you say" a God(s) exists is no more evidence
ML> for the latter than any of the former.
ML> I say you owe me $100,000.
I admit I got a bit carried away, and there might be grounds to prove
I insulted you, but no way that I borrowed a hundred grand! I'd
remember that even in my fevered fundy state!
ML> Pay up.
Talk to my lawyer.
RT> There are many thousands of testimonies to
RT> corroborate this witness,
ML> Well, certainly enough to form a number of cults.
Exactamungo, I think the laddy grasped it, a tad too tight, but
it's a start.
RT> certainly enough to establish a _ground for
RT> belief_.
ML> "Establish a ground for a belief"? Hilarious! An oxymoronic
ML> sentence! Belief is based on faith; which is accepted without
ML> question nor thought; much less evidence.
See Webster's Dictionary 1965, definition of _evidence_. Your argument
is with a higher authority than I. (Perhaps turn down the bombast control
on your monitor.....)
ML> You characters are really a verbal hoot.
Aren't we though. Wanna join us in the barrel?
ML> "If a million people believe a stupid thing, it is still a
ML> stupid thing." - P. Opus.
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience,
ML> Strange it is how billions of people have their lives changed by
ML> science and technology; only to have them deny this reality and so
ML> willingly embrace an illusory supernatural. Defective neural
ML> wiring, I suppose.
S & T, arent they the boys that brought us the hydrogen bomb and napalm?
Changed my life. Wiring is an over simplification, but you know that, all
you S & T types know more than you are willing to admit.
RT> over a time period of 1900+ years. By
RT> definition this IS evidence.
ML> Bullshit. Billions of people believe in spooks, spirits,
ML> spectres, and other supernatural nonsense; without the merest
ML> mote of hard, cold physical evidence.
ML> The only evidence this provides is the mass jejunity of
ML> people over the ages.
You are all reading the same flier. Refer to Derek Clayton reply and
jump on that, come on, get on track!
RT> You may not like it, too bad pal, its
RT> still _evidence_.
ML> You may not like it pal, but just by your say-so and claims
ML> that "millions belief therefore it's fact" is nothing more than
ML> an ill-crafted argumentum ad populum. Something does not exist
ML> by the mere wishes of those who so desperately want it to be
ML> true.
Off topic. Just trying to point out evidence does exist.
RT> You can puke out your vile insults,
ML> Sure is easy with you characters to know which buttons to push to
ML> get the desired response. Another HolySmoke unripe tangerine:
ML> green, effusive and very thin-skinned.
You want to attract Christians, spread some honey. Want to attract
nasty boys, say nasty things. Just after results. Pouring out, nice,
I like that. Anyway pal, the skins a bit thicker than you imagine.
But I'm sweeet inside, I guess it is more like a ripe tangerine inside
a hard rubber ball with razor blades glued to it, handle at your own risk!
RT> its still
RT> evidence.
ML> Yet another variation on the old fundy "IS NOT!" IS NOT!"
ML> ..."IS TOO! IS TOO!".
ML> Just as ridiculous and just as invalid.
RT> You can disagree with it
ML> I always disagree with rampant ignorance.
RT> ...thats legit but you are WRONG in
RT> saying _no evidence exists_.
ML> No, you are incorrect as to what constitutes evidence and what
ML> comprises reality.
RT> By definition this is evidence.
ML> Bullshit. It is not manifest, physical nor tangible.
RT> You are redefining _evidence_, that's cheating pal.
ML> There is but one definition of evidence. It is you who are
ML> trying to warp the definition to fit your equally warped ideas.
RT> We are speaking
RT> of evidence concerning a spiritual influence that has changed a number
RT> of individuals.
ML> Philosophically, these people sound like they needed changing.
RT> These individuals have testified, under oath (he he)
ML> Ever hear of the terms "delusional" and "perjury" (or, in your
ML> case, hallucination)?
RT> about the nature of this transformation and witnesses can confirm the
RT> change.
ML> Physical change? Some sort of measurable, palpable, tangible
ML> corporeal change or some warm-fuzzy "Oh, I'm so glad I gave my
ML> soul away" change?
ML> Evidence? Only of the gullibility and naivete of the great
ML> unwashed.
I think we got off on the wrong foot. By the way you're on my foot...
move over will ya. Hey, your prejudice is showing. While you are
at it trash the insults. If ya promise to stay on a topic (other
than your all encompassing distain of Christians) we can talk again.
Are your peers really impressed by this kind of crappy think?
May the Lord truly start a wonderful work in your life!
Bless you, tangerine.
ML> ... A belief-filled mind is a waste of perfectly good carbon.
ML> -!- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
ML> ! Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Re: The other barrel...again misfires.
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:03:15
--------
EID:3647 1c3f8060
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8eff
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
ML> Richard Thorneycroft, who thought juvenile water was kid stuff,
ML> said to Marty Leipzig:
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT> obviously in error!
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
RT> Congratulations ML you just destroyed a judicial system thats been
RT> around several thousand years!
ML> Hardly. The courts of the land recognize hearsay for just what
ML> it is: unsubstantiated opinion and unrecognized in the court.
ML me lad, hearsay means _rumour_, (honest!) I am talking about
sworn testimony concerning a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Shame about that mis-
fire.
RT> Such brilliance, we will no longer
RT> admit personal testimony, even if supported by witnesses.
ML> Produce the physical evidence and signed affidavits and we'll
ML> see how well you case holds.
You are, of course, unbiased and will put forth an independent finding?
RT> No evidence
RT> allowed, unless it agrees with what you think evidence should be,
ML> Hey, who says a fundy can't learn? That's absolutely right,
ML> bozo. We have a well set elucidation of what constitutes
ML> evidence. Your "spiritual testimony" and "personal accounts"
ML> are just so many "Just So" stories and legend without palpable,
ML> physical confirmation.
Tyrant, with emphasis on the rant.
Like I said, shame about the mis-fire. By the way laddy, where can I
obtain a copy of those _well set elucidations of what constitutes
evidence_ in a case of this kind? And I don't mean the copy in your
head, removing your brain would be too messy.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Daniel Doran
Sub: Re: Playing By The Rules.
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:29:02
--------
EID:33da 1c3f83a0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f00
rply -=> Quoting Daniel Doran to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
DD> RICHARD THORNEYCROFT wrote something that might even have been about
DD> Playing by the rules.
RT> When the personal testimony is corroborated and is similar to
RT> millions of other testimonies and takes place over 1900 years that
RT> constitutes legitimate evidence. You lose, gotta do better than that.
RT> (how about cheat, change the definition?)
DD>
DD> What about the even larger volume of personal testimony and
DD> corroboration from a larger number of individuals than all of the
DD> Christians who have ever lived, over a period of time longer than 1900
DD> years that are in opposition or contradiction to Christianity. Surely
DD> you must believe them. That fewer people believe in Christ than do
DD> not must certainly prove that Christianity is a either not the true
DD> religeon or not the one true religeon. The "evidence" is overwhelming.
DD> Unless of course you disregard their evidence solely because it
DD> doesn't support what you believe.
DD>
Reminder, topic is _evidence does exist_, a rebuttal to _no evidence exists_.
What I must believe 101, is down the hall.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Daniel Doran
Sub: Re: The Evidence Is In. Y
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:33:21
--------
EID:bbaf 1c3f8420
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f01
-=> Quoting Daniel Doran to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
DD> RICHARD THORNEYCROFT wrote something that might even have been about
DD> The evidence is in. Y
DD>
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience, over a time period of 1900+ years. By
RT> definition this IS evidence. You may not like it, too bad pal, its
RT> still _evidence_.
DD>
DD> Ah, but what is it evidence of? An evolved biological mechanism of
DD> neurological connections and chemical messengers that allow human
DD> beings to continue coping with situations that support no rational
DD> reason for hope? (thus giving them a better chance of keeping their
DD> children alive long enough to pass a gene for spiritual experiences
DD> than similar individuals who, without the gene, give up in despair)
DD> God is not a necessary explanation for spiritual experiences.
DD>
DD>
DD>
DD>
DD>
DD>
DD>
Covered see reply to DEREK CLAYTON, too many question marks.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Stuart Lumgair
Sub: Re: Hector the Horrible
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:34:54
--------
EID:bad8 1c3f8440
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f02
-=> Quoting Stuart Lumgair to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
SL> On (25 Jan 94) Richard Thorneycroft wrote to Hector Plasmic...
RT>
RT> Ah well, here we go again. Dear Hector, poor heart, there is a vast
RT> body of evidence existing. The sworn testimony of tens of millions
of
RT> individuals, evidence of a spiritual influence that changed their
RT> lives.
RT> This evidence has been documented for over 1900 years and corroborated
RT> by millions of friends and neighbors.
SL>
SL> This may be so, but what about the hundreds of other religions
SL> that can produce exactly the same evidence (sworn testimony) as
SL> the one you choose to follow. It would seem that you are saying
SL> that they are also equally "true" .... which I am sure will
SL> scare the pants off of you once you realize it .
SL> I can find you people who will swear to the spiritual
SL> influences on their lives of many different gods, goddesses,
SL> and other supernatual critters .... their belief does not make
SL> it reality, only truth to them as an individual.
SL>
SL>
Topic is _there is evidence_ a rebuttal to _there is no evidence_.
Truth 101, is down the hall and turn right.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: The evidence is in. You're whatever.
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:38:14
--------
EID:d7a1 1c3f84c0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f03
reply
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
JM> Hi Richard...
JM>
JM> On 25 Jan 94 15:17:33, Richard Thorneycroft penned the following to
JM> Marty Leipzig In reference to Re: The evidence is in. You're insulting
JM> and tedious.
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
RT> Back off mad dog, what allegory and legend? Are you on drugs? This
RT> is a definition of _evidence_. Textbook stuff. Brain dead??? (satire
RT> only, calm down.).
JM>
JM> OK... let's look at textbook stuff. You have evidence a
JM> certain frame of mind can provide a transformation of
JM> personality. I can provide that as well without using religion
JM> or relying on a "God" to do the work FOR you. It takes 21 days
JM> and anyone can do it without becoming addicted to a religion.
I say the Holy Spirit can change lives. I don't even know if my mind
has a frame.
RT> I say He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to
RT> corroborate this witness, certainly enough to establish a _ground for
RT> belief_.
JM>
JM> A ground for belief for some people, perhaps. Others have just
JM> grown up.
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience, over a time period of 1900+ years. By
RT> definition this IS evidence. You may not like it, too bad pal, its
JM>
JM> All is is, as I've mentioned, is evidence the human mind can
JM> be influenced in many ways. Budhists have reported the same
JM> thing as have Moslems, Jews, First Nations peoples and many
JM> others. If it is evidence of a "god" it is only circumstantial.
RT> By definition this is evidence.
JM>
JM> By definition it is hearsay.
You are the second _hearsay_, but I am a patient man. Heresay is rumour.
Sworn testimony concerning a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is not hearsay.
ML> Bullshit. It is not manifest, physical nor tangible.
RT> You are redefining _evidence_, that's cheating pal. We are speaking
RT> of evidence concerning a spiritual influence that has changed a number
RT> of individuals.
JM>
JM> Like Koresh, Bakker and Swaggart? How about Oral Roberts and
JM> his 900 foot Jesus? Your theory that a supreme being has a
JM> positive spiritual influence falls down on those, and MANY
JM> other points. My theory of a psychological influence which can
JM> be controlled to achieve the same effect covers those bases and
JM> many more.
RT> These individuals have testified, under oath (he he)
JM>
JM> Does that include under torture as well? B-})
RT> about the nature of this transformation and witnesses can confirm the
RT> change.
Topic is _there is evidence, a rebuttal to _there is no evidence_.
_I made a big Bo Bo 101_, is down the hall bear left.
JM>
JM> Got anything from "The Journal of American Psychiatry" on the
JM> subject?
JM>
No, you?
JM> John
JM>
JM>
Nice to meet you, John. Sorry about the short time. Got Tony the Tiger
by the tail here. Chat again.
Have a really good day and God bless.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: The evidence is in. You're Mr. Rice.
Date: 31 Jan 94 16:48:45
--------
EID:444a 1c3f8600
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f04
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT>> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT>> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT>> obviously in error!
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
rt> Back off mad dog,
FR>
FR> That's an irrational response, Richard.
rt> what allegory and legend?
FR>
FR> I suppose you never read the classical Christian mythologies, then?
rt> Are you on drugs?
FR>
FR> That's a typically Christian response to the frightening world of
FR> facts, Richard.
rt> This is a definition of _evidence_.
FR>
FR> An incorrect, inaccurate one.
Doncha wish!
rt> Textbook stuff.
FR>
FR> Time to buy a _secular_ text book, Richard.
rt> Brain dead??? (satire only, calm down.).
Satire FR my man, satire. I jest when in despair over what passes as
wisdom in this world.
FR>
FR> It certainly would appear as though you have nothing to say. Why are
FR> you wasting the better educated, critically chinking participants time
FR> merely calling people names, Richard? Shouldn't you be in the
FR> OPEN_BIBLE forum where irrational, unthinking opinion is bantered
FR> around and swallowed whole?
FR> Take your pill, son.
FR>
Not THE PILL, no daddy no!
You of all people should not need a topic reminder. This is _there is EVIDENCE
_
a rebuttal to _there is NO evidence_. What the hell is _critical chinking_,
on
e
of those eastern philosophy things? Check with the office.
FR> ~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
FR> - Rodney Matejek
A dull light blindeth not. Do pigs sweat?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: The evidence is in. It's Fred again!
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:07:00
--------
EID:5d8a 1c3f88e0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f05
reply
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT>> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT>> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT>> obviously in error!
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
rt> Back off mad dog,
FR>
FR> That's an irrational response, Richard.
rt> what allegory and legend?
FR>
FR> I suppose you never read the classical Christian mythologies, then?
rt> Are you on drugs?
FR>
FR> That's a typically Christian response to the frightening world of
FR> facts, Richard.
rt> This is a definition of _evidence_.
FR>
FR> An incorrect, inaccurate one.
rt> Textbook stuff.
FR>
FR> Time to buy a _secular_ text book, Richard.
rt> Brain dead??? (satire only, calm down.).
FR>
FR> It certainly would appear as though you have nothing to say. Why are
FR> you wasting the better educated, critically chinking participants time
FR> merely calling people names, Richard? Shouldn't you be in the
FR> OPEN_BIBLE forum where irrational, unthinking opinion is bantered
FR> around and swallowed whole?
FR> Take your pill, son.
FR>
FR> ~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
FR> - Rodney Matejek
FR>
FR> -!-
FR> ! Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Hector the Horrible
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:07:38
--------
EID:7927 1c3f88e0
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f06
reply
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
HP> In the imagination. Now, you have any evidence
HP> that your gods are anything more than imaginary?
rt> It's Hector again! Jousting with the Christian brothers.
FR>
FR> He asked you for evidence, son, not a contest with an unarmed
FR> believer.
rt> Methinks he doth protest too much!
FR>
FR> Youthinks not at all since you are incapable of recognizing what
FR> constitutes evidence. Hearsay, beliefs, and opinions to disguise
FR> ignorance will not cover up said ignorance one bit.
rt> Ah well, here we go again.
FR>
FR> You have not even started, silly! Present your evidence.
rt> Dear Hector, poor heart, there is a vast
rt> body of evidence existing.
FR>
FR> Which you are very selfish in refusing to share. All you do is claim
FR> that you believe, that others believe, and that you have evidence.
FR> Fine. Everyone here realizes that the sad state of education promotes
FR> the existance of believers in gods, vampyres, and fairies. With that
FR> acknowledged, let's see you trot out your evidence.
rt> The sworn testimony of tens of millions of individuals,
FR>
FR> Unevidenced belief motivated almost entirely through the fear of death
FR> and indoctrination by like-less-well-educated parents. The stated
FR> beliefs by millions of Santa does not constitute evidence any more
FR> that the stated beliefs by millions of your deities.
FR> Flood tubes 1 and 3
rt> evidence of a spiritual influence that changed their lives.
FR>
FR> Evidence that a belief in deities is enough to prompt people to
FR> change. That is a psychological -- scientific -- field of inquiry and
FR> does not provide any evidence whatsoever for the mental images
FR> concocted by believers.
FR> Opening outer doors
rt> This evidence has been documented for over 1900 years
rt> and corroborated by millions of friends and neighbors.
FR>
FR> That groundless, unevidenced _belief_ has been stated as such for well
FR> over 10,000 years, silly boy. Your deities have lived quite a bit
FR> longer within the minds of the believer than a mere 1900 years.
FR> Reguardless, the thousands of deities posited have been believed in
by
FR> billions -- those you decided to pick and choose are no different.
FR> And, as we see, belief is not evidence.
FR> Matching bearings and shooting!
rt> You may not like it, but in order to discount it
rt> you must change the meaning of the word _evidence_.
FR>
FR> Break out the life rafts, Richard. Your beliefs are in flame and your
FR> unsupportable argument is leaking very badly. Yet, as we have seen,
FR> Hector did, indeed, pick a fight with an unarmed (and unsupportable)
FR> fool.
FR> You are trying to claim that mere belief constitutes evidence. Do you
FR> think that your Santa Clause is evidenced? If you say that you don't
FR> believe in Santa Clause, then why do you choose to pick and choose
FR> what you are willing to believe?
Ever get that _I'm all puffed up feeling_? Why not jump on my reply to
Derek Clayton, its kinda where the debate is at right now. (I know,
you are very intelligent, BUT respect for God is the beginning of wisdom.
Ya know even Steven H. does not dismiss God the Creator, why don't you
drop him a line, or do you distain him as a FOOL?) Santa was covered last
week.
Thats OK, the Lord has assured me I'm fireproof! My argument is leaking.
thats cute!
I know you are a senior guy, but you are off base, seriously off base
when you say I am presenting _mere belief_ as evidence. The evidence
is a changed life. Many, many changed lives. Tangable, measurable,
personally witnessed, changed lives.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Playing by the rules....
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:26:53
--------
EID:b866 1c3f8b40
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f07
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
RT> Yes, Martin, my personal testimony
HP> Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lies, hallucination or
HP> madness, often even to (or particularly to) the one doing the
HP> testifying.
rt> Ya know Hector, having read a number of your assaults, I
rt> can't help but notice, that you behave like your imagined enemy.
FR> Amazing. The demand that asking people for their evidence when they
FR> make outrageous claims is an 'attack' is only heard from those with
FR> psychological difficulties. Hector pointed out _nicely_ that claims
FR> of invisible superfriends are indistinguishable from hallucination or
FR> madness and the believer automatically devolves to bleats of "personal
FR> attack."
rt> The narrow minded
No offence, FR but I am sure HP can answer his own mail and I really
do not need you to explain what he meant or what I meant, for that matter.
I realize if stimulated you can bring insult to a new zenith but SIX replies
from you in one packet is more than even I have the patience for. No offence
but I just don't find you that much fun to talk to. The topic is _there
is
evidence_ a rebuttal to _there is no evidence. Two messages should be
sufficient to make your point. Your point has been made, want to give me
a hand with all this crap, play Gods advocate for a while?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Richard Thorneycroft
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: The other barrel.....
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:57:01
--------
EID:f91e 1c3f8f20
MSGID: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f08
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Richard Thorneycroft <=-
MG> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT> obviously in error!
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
rt> Congratulations ML you just destroyed a judicial
rt> system thats been around several thousand years!
FR> Well, Marty is like that, you know. (By the way, your spelling is
FR> even worse that mine when you break into irrational rants.) He's the
FR> clown who is working on a "guilty as charged particle beam weapon" and
FR> has plans to use it to detonate Jupiter!
rt> Such brilliance, we will no longer admit
rt> personal testimony, even if supported by witnesses.
FR> Er, um, sorry to interrupt you in mid-rant yet personal testimony is
FR> not admissable as evidence unless there is testable, falsifiable
FR> testimony being offered backed by either an admission of guilt by the
FR> individual being grilled or by physical evidence -- such as a bank
FR> video camera tape.
Guilty as charged, now let me explain just how guilty I am of being a
changed man, and my friend here with the video camera will tell ya too.
I wasn't six replies from you on this topic, it was NINE wasn't it?!
Good Lord man, are you in your right mind? I'm serious. What are
you anyway? Like I said before you got your _idea_ across in two.
By the way give me someting in quotes, some referances, I suspect
you know little about the litigation process in cases of this type.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: George Wells
To: Steve Rose
Sub: GOD HAS LEFT
Date: 01 Feb 94 00:01:47
--------
EID:03ee 1c410020
SR> GW> wish to offer my opinion of the "Christian God" that I beleive.
SR>
SR>If you are going to support outdated superstitions...at least get it
SR>right. The word is 'believe.'
I came here to give my opinion, not to be flamed for my spelling.
SR> GW> I also beleive that soon after his son departed from this world,
SR> GW> that he no longer watched over us, and does not to this day.
SR>
SR> GW> It would appear to me that this world is some great experiment on
this
SR> GW> "God"'s part, which he grew tired of, and left us.
SR>
SR>Perhaps the lingering smell will bring him back one day...and he'll
SR>remember to flush the Cosmic Commode. Hope he lowers the seat, as well.
I think he tried that once...to an extent...did he not flood the Earth?
George
___
* MR/2 1.52 NR * We are Spock of Borg. Resistance is illogical.
--- Renegade v1-2 Exp
* Origin: The Empire (519)539-7383 (1:221/1101)
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From: Eric Weeks
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Introduction
Date: 26 Jan 94 04:26:00
--------
EID:4abd 1c3a2340
PID: RA 2.01
MSGID: 1:324/296 52e48e84
REPLY: 1:350/401 862E2AA3
My position on God is based on all of the religons, and none of ¨them. I
have
read MANY religeous books of all faiths and I try to ¨keep an open mind.
In sh
ort, I believe all people worship the same ¨God (from a different cultural
vie
wpoint), just most are to ¨narrow-minded to realize that a different view
of t
he same idea does ¨not make one a heretic who is going to hell because they
do
n't ¨follow all the rules of a particular faith. ¨
Eric
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Cherokee Nation = Lowell, Ma. = 508-452-2082 (1:324/296)
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From: Eric Weeks
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Re: Lack of facts
Date: 26 Jan 94 04:29:01
--------
EID:40bf 1c3a23a0
PID: RA 2.01
MSGID: 1:324/296 52e48f1e
REPLY: 1:350/401 862E2AA4
See previous message as to what I think, though I am happy to answer ¨specific
questions, pointed and sharp as they may get.
Eric
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Cherokee Nation = Lowell, Ma. = 508-452-2082 (1:324/296)
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From: Eric Weeks
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Question for the Better E
Date: 26 Jan 94 04:30:02
--------
EID:3958 1c3a23c0
PID: RA 2.01
MSGID: 1:324/296 52e48f6c
REPLY: 1:350/401 862E2AA7
> -> Eric Weeks got back to Marilyn Burge Re: Question for the Better E
> EW> So, tell me as I just entered the arena, where do you stand in a
> EW> religeous sense. I'm trying to figure out where all the players in
> this
> EW> game stand and it's kindof tough when I'm reading half conversations.
> It's also hard to understand what may be bothering you
> about Marilyn's messages if you don't qoute from them...
> You do know what an OLR is, don't you?
> ... Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you.
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
> --- WM v3.10/92-0416
> * Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain
> reigns ( (1:350/401)
> 324/288
No, what is an OLR?
Eric
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Cherokee Nation = Lowell, Ma. = 508-452-2082 (1:324/296)
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Grace
Date: 01 Feb 94 06:41:00
--------
EID:1087 047610c0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4e419d
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Larry Sites <=-
LS>LS>What did
LS>LS>he say about grace? Humm, NOTHING! Why is it that God supposedly
LS>LS>incarnate
LS>LS>never said squat about grace.
SB> Another place were Jesus talks about grace is in Luke 23:43 where He
SB> tells the criminal that they will be in paradise together.
Steve, I am in a long-running study of Luke, and have been amazed to see
how central Grace is to so many of the parables told in Luke, especially
those
that are unique to Luke, such as the Prodigal Son, in Luke 15:11-32, but
also
throughout these pericopes in Chapters 15 and 16.
Yours in Christ,
Jesse
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Gospel Of John
Date: 01 Feb 94 06:44:01
--------
EID:1087 047610c1
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4e419e
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to J.j. Hitt <=-
JH> John's gospel differs so widely from the other three that the
JH>author was most likely totaly unaware of the existance of any other
JH>written account of Jesus's life.
SB> How is this so clear? I disagree with your statement that the author
SB> was totally unaware of other written accounts since it does cover some
SB> of the same accounts as the synoptics.
My studies indicate that in many ways John's gospel in fact _responds to_
the synoptics, clarifying issues that had arisen since those gospels were
circulated, especially as it related to the by-then growing trend to
Gnosticism. I too think the author of John was aware of the synoptics.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Guess who's coming to din
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:35:01
--------
EID:10ce aa0b31d1
MSGID: 1:206/2720 100c00d5
REPLY: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 3adc7c67
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> AB> Islam is surely no more dangerous than
> AB> Christianity. Given the choice, I'd rather
> AB> abolish both, but if that can't be done, it
> AB> hardly matters which one is on top.
> At the time of the exile from Spain in 1492, the Jews
> of Spain that left settled in Islamic countries,
> because of the higher level of tolerence exhibited at
> that time under the Caliphate.
> Of course, even before it's decline, countries in the
> Islamic empire had outbreaks of persecution. None of
> them were nearly as bad, long-lasting, or widespread
> as Western Europe's doings in that period, however.
Yes, but there were non-religious cultural and economic factors involved
as we
ll. While Islam may be a more enlightened religion than Christianity, I
don't
think the evidence is anywhere near conclusive. And even if Islam is better
than Christianity, I'd still rather have neither.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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From: Cecil Head
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: RE: STEVE'S PR FOR YOUR RELIGION
Date: 01 Feb 94 03:28:49
--------
EID:778f 1c411b80
>MG> Hi,I don't know where you read that 'Christians are taught to hate
>MG> homosexuals'. The Bible says "hate the SIN not the SINNER".
>MG> cya, M.G.
>
Funny how you won't find what you printed in quotes anywhere in the Bible.
Just like you won't find a well preached christian thought: "God helps those
w
ho help themselves"
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: 24th Street Exchange - A BBS Since 1983 * (916) 448-2483 (1:203/52)
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From: Kirby Nixon
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Re: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit
Date: 29 Jan 94 21:45:58
--------
EID:00e8 1c3dada0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d4d6047
~~From the electronic bitstream Jason Rosendale was saying~~
-{ Re: Evidence-Implicit or Explicit }-
MS> There is more substantial proof that Jesus existed than there is that
MS> George Washington was our 1st president.
One for Frederic's quote file.
... Photons have mass? I didn't know they were Catholic!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: David Dahl
Sub: Re: God DOOMit!
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:00:16
--------
EID:a764 1c3fa800
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4dc5c000
Someone else> If Jesus truly was raised from the dead
There's the real "meat" to a message full of fluff. This fellow has just
gone on and on about how the bible's true and Jess is a god, yet even he
knows that there's no evidence that anything he's said is more than
wishful thinking.
DD> If it wasn't so funny, it'd be sad.
And vice versa, eh? :-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Death is the only god that comes when you call. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Re: Waste of time......
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:12:39
--------
EID:e841 1c3fa980
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4dc8a700
REPLY: fidonet#1:380/100.1 2d4c6baf
> >WM> I found it quite funny.
> >WM> Haven't seen one yet.
> >WM> My goodness, you sure didn't last long.
> RT> Just what is your point, Wayne.
WM>Let me know when you learn to quote more than my answers to
WM>something and I'll tell you what my point was.
The fact that he went to a lot of trouble to obscure your points should
tell you that the point (a bullseye) was made.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Jess died for his sins. (1:380/16)
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Re: Hectine scatology
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:17:58
--------
EID:550a 1c3faa20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4dc9e600
REPLY: fidonet#1:380/100.1 2d4c7332
WM>evidence: 1. the state of being evident
WM> 2. something that makes another thing evident
WM> 3. LAW a statement of a witness, an object, etc, bearing on
WM> or establishing the point in question.
WM>I presume you are trying to use number 3 as the first two have
WM>nothing to do with your claim.
He's trying, but he fails to notice that his "testimonies" establish the
fact that people believe, not the fact that what they believe has any
validity. In other words, the point in question is not addressed by his
"evidence."
I always get a kick out of them using "evidence" that would, if
accepted, "prove" that the tooth fairy, easter bunny and Santa all
"exist." And every one of them think they came up with it on their own.
:-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Supernatural: that which idiots believe. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: "Vapor Canapy" nonsense
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:24:23
--------
EID:e6f1 1c3fab00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4dcb6700
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499493
RT>Gen. 7:11...In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the second month, the
RT>seventeenth day of the month, the same day were ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF
RT>THE GREAT DEEP broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
RT>Seems water above and water below became water in the middle.
ROFL! You are a _real_ fundy, aren't you, Rich? No faking ignorance for
you, eh? ROFL! (BTW, got any corroborating evidence that humans lived
to 600 years of age? Any at all?)
Read 'em and weep. The following is from a previous post by Marty Leipzig:
=========================================================================
If, for no other reason to educate some and irritate others, what
follows is a mathematical treatise on the impossibility of a Biblical
Great Flood...
In order to flood the Earth to the Biblical depth of "10 cubits"
above the highest mountains of the Earth; you would need some 4.427
billion cubic kilometers of water. The mass of this water would be
4.427 x 10^21 kilograms. The current amount of water in the Earth's
hydrosphere is only 1.37 billion cubic kilometers. So, where did the
other 2 hydrospheres full of water come from? It could not come from
water vapor (or clouds) because the atmospheric pressure would be 842
times greater than it is now. Further, the latent heat relaeased when
the vapor condenses into liquid would be enough to raise the
temperature of the Earth's atmosphere to 3,570 C (6,458 F).
Someone once suggested that a "Vapor Canopy" covered the Earth, and
this is where all that water came from. Not so at all. What would
keep that water in orbit above the Earth? This niggling little
property called gravity would cause it to fall. Why should that take
40 days and 40 nights? Further, this mass of water (some 4.427 X
10^21 Kg) stores a tremendous amount of potential energy which would
be converted to kinetic energy when the water falls and would be
converted to heat when it strikes the Earth. This potential energy
(Ep=M*g*H; where M=mass of water, g=gravitational constant and
H=height of water above the Earth's surface) could be calculated. If
4.427 x 10^21 is divided by 40 days, it yields 1.107 x 10^20 Kg/day.
If H=16,000m (approximately 10 miles), the released energy, per day,
would equal 1.735 x 10^25 joules. The amount of energy the Earth
would have to radiate per m^2/s is energy divided by surface area of
the Earth times the number of seconds in one day; thus: Ep=1.735 x
10^25/(4*3.14159*((6386)^2)*86,400) = 391,935.096 j/m^2/s.
The Earth currently radiates 215 j/m^2/s at an average temperature of
280 K. Using the Stephan-Boltzmann fourth power law to calculate
temperature increase:
E(increase)/E(normal)=T^4(increase)/T^4(normal); so
E(normal) = 215
E(increase) = 391,935.096
T(normal) = 280 (turn the crank, and...)
----------------------
T(increase) = 1,800 K.
The temperature of the Earth would have to rise 1,800 degrees.
Further, the water level would rise an average of 14 cm. per minute
for 40 days. In 13 minutes, the water level would be over 2 m. in
depth. Further, water under standard pressure would not exist as a
liquid at 1,800 K.
So much for that flood...
=========================================================================
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Religion: just say NO. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Re: Playing by the rules.
Date: 31 Jan 94 21:52:59
--------
EID:8d9d 1c3fae80
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 4dd21b00
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d499492
RT>You may not _like_ the evidence, it may make you _upset_, you may feel
RT>there is just not enough BUT you are incorrect when you say _there
RT>is NO evidence_. Do you grasp my argument?
Oh, we grasp your argument (it's hardly new, you know), it's just that
it has no validity whatsoever. Even using your legal definition of
"evidence" as opposed to the common or scientific definitions normally
used by all but lawyers and fundies, you're all wet. Consider:
Lawyer: "Your honor, we have testimony from 10,000,000 people who
firmly believe that Hector is guilty. However, we have
nothing else beyond this unevidenced belief which would
indicate his guilt."
Judge: "Get out of my courtroom, you moron."
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: "This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!" (1:380/16)
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From: jonny vee
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: MANSON FINDS THE LORD GOD
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:35:04
--------
EID:2664 1c3f1460
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0f827f8e
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d46df50
PID: FM 2.02
> jv> Bass is not just a lower-voiced guitar. The playing
> jv> technique is different, and the function of the
> jv> instrument is different.
> What's the tuning? My neighbor plays bass. He explained the
> difference once; maybe I got it wrong.
E A D G, low to high. An octave lower than the bottom 4 strings on a 6-string
. Same as a bass fiddle. But the tuning is not what makes it different,
it's
the function. This is why a lot of pretty good guitar players who think
they
can double on bass really can't.
> jv> Too bad Dr Demento isn't being syndicated by Westwood
> jv> One anymore. Sounds like something he'd give some
> jv> airplay to.
> He's syndicated in D.C. on WHFS FM. Maybe I'll send a tape of
> Pinball Wizard?
Couldn't hurt. I've heard some of the most awful crap on that show and
I've h
eard some excellent musicianship, but _everything_ I've heard on it has
been e
mphatically weird. Pinball Wizard on banjo just might do it.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: HalfLife -mail only- 510-886-6180 20:00-11:00 PST (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Judas
Date: 31 Jan 94 03:38:05
--------
EID:df9f 1c3f1cc0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0f827f8f
REPLY: 1:291/16 2d471d5a
PID: FM 2.02
> MS> me at the moment, but it is in the bible, told by two different
> MS> writers.
> At two different times. In two different ways.
Heh heh, now ask him who was at the tomb, when, and what they saw. Let
him sq
uirm around that one.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: HalfLife -mail only- 510-886-6180 20:00-11:00 PST (1:215/606)
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: More on Prof. Kenyon and "intelligent design"
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:48:42
--------
EID:9e74 1c416e00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
26 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad All:
FR> ~*~ ...you have willingly joined the legion of Satans's
FR> angels. - Ron Ballew
"...and my name's Satan: These are my Angels."
... Democracy: where you say as you like & do as you're told.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:53:20
--------
EID:f35f 1c416ea0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
26 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
CJ>> "Judas hanged himself--go and do likewise." One can read
CJ>> anything into Scripture that one wants to--cults do it all the
CJ>> time, why should I expect anything less from an atheist?
He never answered me on that when I simply said "You're the one who gives
a
fuck about an old book, you tell me."
FR> It's amazing, isn't it? Did you see Mike Staab (sp?) try to
FR> wiggle out from under the problem of there being two
FR> conflicting accounts of this mythos' death?
We've seen this backpedalling done in this forum time and time again.
FR> "Why, he hung
FR> himself on a tree overlooking a cliff and the rope broke."
Did you see what Marilyn Burge said about it? -Priceless-. :)
CJ>> present scholars from whom I can draw reasonable arguments:
CJ>> Aquinas, Anselm, Descartes, Locke, Augustine, Carl F.H. Henry,
CJ>> R.C. Sproul, Clark Pinnock, et. al.
FR> John Locke, no less.
Of course, he ignored MY list. I certainly can play "Let's have
a Quote Party" with them, and produce bits and pieces (and treatises, for
that matter) that are conducive to my point. So?
FR> Why didn't this clown also include Torqueamada, Pope Pious X,
FR> Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, and Jimmy Swaggart?
They weren't thinkers? :) ["Torquemada", man! It's even on the back of
my
time card this week!]
sq>> Cervantes, Larra, Espronceda, Lope de Vega, Cadalso, Moratin, Quevedo,
sq>> Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, Moliere, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson,
sq>> Shakespeare, as well as a couple of anonymous works such as El Poema
sq>> de Mio Cid and Lazarillo de Tormes (A very good one, in fact.).
FR> Could we add Spinoza and Kant or were they believers?
I haven't read Spinoza, and little of Kant. As you can see above, I tend
to read material that appeals to my Romantic sensibilities (with some
exceptions, such as Voltaire and his contemporaries...I'm also cynical,
but
you know that. ;).
sq>> So what are we going to do? Sit here and throw quotes around?
FR> Sure! Let's quote some mythology!
FR> Now. Let me see. What mythology can we expect to see? }:-}
Shit...now I have to go find my copy of Crossley-Holland for some Odin
stories.
sq>> If you have a dire need to grovel or rejoice because of some deity
that
sq>> you perceive, then by all means, do so. It is your right to do so,
and
sq>> frankly, it is not my place to tell you what to think.
FR> Yet you could suggest that he _should_ think.
Hey, it's his right to NOT think. It's not his right, however, to ask ME
to
not think.
... A fool and his money are some party.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: HYPNOTHERAPY
Date: 01 Feb 94 13:56:10
--------
EID:daff 1c416f00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
26 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> Greetings, once-great oracle of "wize"dom. (Saw the sign.)
I need to do a kludge-line per day.
FR> Oh you bet. Step 1, you know. You would not __believe__ what
FR> I have in the works right now. If my plan is successful, we
FR> should see the end of a couple of deathcults around the world
FR> within the next four or five years.
What are you going to do? Stop production of the Bible?
FR> Oh I just love it when a secret plan comes together!
The A-Team....ROFL!
... Forest fires prevent bears.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Christian Coalition is groaning...
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:00:40
--------
EID:9e3e 1c417000
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
26 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
[Joe Savel-Lie]
sq>> I can't even threaten the guy with a straight face anymore.
FR> I know what you mean. A kitten terrorizing a ball of
FR> string.
I'm certain we'll get the David and Goliath story from him sooner or later.
At least David had a rock.
FR> We _want_ your Creamy Ranch Dressing, you know. We all do.
I want his children alright, but -to eat-.
FR>> It's amazing, isn't it, that,
FR>> after being so soundly debunked and exposed as a liar and a fraud,
FR>> this individual can simply take a deep breath and continue to lie.
sq>> And pretend that not a damned thing was said about his previous lies.
I have SAVELLI.CAB here, and I can literally laugh out loud when I go through
it. "No more"...ROFL!
FR> The guy watches "700 club" so he thinks it's perfectly
FR> acceptable.
He should be watching The Learning Channel instead, getting some information
on those lost civilizations who spoke Modern English.
FR> This particular individual by himself is harmless.
Agreed. He's simply risable.
FR> not-believers safe from behind the mob. He can be counted upon
FR> being one of those types who is coward enough to pick up a gun
FR> and shoot the next dred tormentor -- reguardless of who it is.
Suzy knows I'd buy a snowplow blade just to run him over if he came into
my
house.
FR>> He's a homosexual but is too afraid to admit it,
sq>> Oooh, the ultimate insult!
FR> Oh no. Not at all.
To his way of thinking, yes it is.
FR> We always hate most what we see in others which we can not see
FR> in ourselves.
Are you calling me stupid?
... Stringfellows make strange bedfellows.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Your deities are good! Don't damage the faith!
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:01:28
--------
EID:783d 1c417020
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
26 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> #include Dave Schultz
MG>>> I DARE you to call Steve Quarrella's BBS and
MG>>> [download] "GOD$LOVE.GIF" from his Holysmoke files area.
sq>>> Phone number is 214/412-8457.
sq>> That phone number again is 214/412-8457.
One more time, K-Mart shoppers: 214/412-8457.
sq>> He hasn't yet stopped by.
FR> I think my little nudge was a little too transparrent.
FR> Ah, well. Perhaps the next one.
Nope. History repeats itself: They never even show up for Trick-or-Treat.
... Star Trek VII: The Search for Kirk's Toupee.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:05:56
--------
EID:29a7 1c4170a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
27 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad J.J. Hitt:
DR>> * Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
jjh>> What possible good use could you find for him ALIVE?
FR> Torture.
Hardly...and ruin my good chainsaw? How about "fertilizer"?
... No, Woody...I said TUCK the kid in bed. * Mia Farrow *
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ...out There.
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:16:38
--------
EID:7741 1c417200
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
27 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Ron Ballew:
rb>> You really should be more polite if you expect people to talk to
rb>> you. If you are so confident of your opinions why are you so
rb>> angry?
At least I didn't say "Oh, bullshit!" :)
FR> If you're so much the True Christian, why do you think magical
FR> words can harm you?
He's just stalling.
... An elephant is a mouse with an operating system.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: It's just a clef to the right.
Date: 01 Feb 94 19:58:50
--------
EID:004d 1c419f40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
27 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Marty Leipzig:
rc>> ... "141, 142, 143, 144!" she counted grossly.
FR>> "Argh! Ack! Greck!" he said heartlessly.
ml>> "Whoops. I just dropped a running chain saw." he said offhandedly.
FR>> "I just don't give a rat's ass," she said carelessly.
ml>> "Just look at all that waste oil swirling down the sewer!",
ml>> said Dwayne uncutously.
ml>> ... "I'm going to drill me a well.", said Derrick boringly.
fr>> "I'm pennyless!" Jesse said unaccountably.
jv>> "I can't sing that quarter note!" he quavered.
ml>> "I know. I know." he intoned flatly.
FR> "I can't _stand_ all these dead people," Joe said cryptically.
"I failed my junior year", he muttered sophomorically.
... Silver Xpress....the Far East pirate's choice!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: bible nonsense
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:01:02
--------
EID:dfa1 1c41a020
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Dan!
25 Jan 94, dixit Dan Ceppa ad Steve Quarrella:
->> Steve Quarrella got back to Fredric Rice Re: bible nonsense
FR>> "Correct your grammer and your spelling and try again."
SQ>> Psst. "Grammar". Now you've gone and done it.
DC> Steve, the error Fredrick made was in not capitalizing the
DC> word. He was undoubtedly referring to Kelsey Grammer, who
DC> plays a psychiatrist. In effect, he inferred that Zach
DC> should learn spelling and get his head straight.
Ah yes....sorry about that, everything is OK now. I'm "of the body" again.
No problem here whatsoever.
... "We all chip in for a bag of cement...."
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Passages
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:05:14
--------
EID:2885 1c41a0a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
28 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Hector Plasmic:
HP>> Evidence, Jesse, or suck the bullshit back from whence it came.
DR> That reminds me of the Red Dwarf episode where time ran
DR> backwards on a planet.
Actually, I think of THE LAST DAY: "What happens to all the calculators?"
... "Auntie Em: Hate you and Kansas. Took the dog." Dorothy
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Jess' DWI
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:06:50
--------
EID:bade 1c41a0c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
28 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Martin Goldberg:
DR> me or something. Unfortunately the police car rushed in front
DR> of him and forced his car into the curb before he could do
DR> anything more criminal (just like in the movies! Wow!).
Wow! Evidence for God, man!
... Wanna read a good horror novel? Get a history book!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Advanced civilizations -- in your dreams
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:10:14
--------
EID:e0e3 1c41a140
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
28 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> I think we've got something here. I think we have alarming
SQ>> proof that the television has become established (and firmly)
SQ>> as a deity in today's households. Rather than simply entertain
DR> Goddess! I'm afraid your insight here is correct.
I have my moments, fortunately. :)
DR> I have heard
DR> that there were telephone polls that asked adults if they would
DR> give up TV forever for one million dollars--- most would not. I
Can you hear it now? "Fuck no!" Frankly, I'm just waiting for ST:TNG to
finish its run, and then that'll be it for MY TV watching. I prefer my
books. :)
DR> the Vavau' chain. It has a population of 103,144 people. They do
DR> not have any televisions. The literacy rate among citizens ten
DR> years of age and older is 100% in both Tongan and English. Most
I've heard similar claims about Iceland. Kelsey? You out there?
DR> students also take classes in the New Zealand languages. The
DR> nastiest grafitti I saw, in a public toilet, was "I hate
DR> algerbra!"
With "I hate speling class" writting by the same hand, no doubt.
... You don't go to Denny's: You end up there.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:11:08
--------
EID:ec7e 1c41a160
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
28 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
MG>> Hi,I don't know where you read that 'Christians are taught to hate
MG>> homosexuals'. The Bible says "hate the SIN not the SINNER".
SQ>> Well, shit, Fred...so much for THAT theory. :-/
DR> The Bible says "Hate black SKIN not the black person."
Could you imagine the mayhem if that was really in there? I bet we've got
some Fundies HERE who'd love to find a "lost book" of the Bible with that
phrase (Either that or they could become Mormons.).
... Lazy elves at the North Pole get the heave-ho ho ho!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Baseless Belief
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:31:38
--------
EID:1762 1c3f0be0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
27 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Dan Ceppa:
DR> Ah, but god only requires that you bend over and accept his
DR> staff of authority; surrender your criticle thinking abilities;
DR> strangles, repress, suppress, and sublimate your natural
While driving through Western Arkansas and Eastern Oklahoma this weekend,
I
was surprised at how many Baptist churches out there are called "Free Will
Baptist Church". I wonder WHY these churches have this name.
... Courage is the fear of being thought a coward.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Walk on water? Better know where the rocks are.
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:36:18
--------
EID:e827 1c3f0c80
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Marty!
26 Jan 94, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> I don't do winter. :)
ML> You don't know what you are missing...frostbite, snow
ML> blindness,
Ah, but I do. Texans as a whole (meaning those who do not travel) simply
do not comprehend what snow really is. It's hilarious to watch the city
of
Dallas -panic- when the newscasters say we're going to have a few inches
of
snow here.
ML> scantily clad snow bunnies...
Suzy?
SQ>> [Why do you think I'm here in Texas, and not in
SQ>> my home state of Michigan? :) ]
ML> Lack of state income tax?
That too!
ML> Fundies by the bucketful?
That three!
ML> I know! Lone Star Beer!
Give me a brown bottle and I'll make you some of that.
... "...I might not give the answers that you want me to..."
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Fascinating
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:41:02
--------
EID:ba07 1c3f0d20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Styx!
25 Jan 94, dixit Styx Allum ad Steve Quarrella:
>>>> Obviously your ignorance of western civilization is lacking.
>> Hey, he said this to me too...
I'm quite familiar with western civilization. However, I don't buy the
red herring of "Lots of people believe it and write about it, so it MUST
be so." That's HIS ignorance of the political machine (running on
Christian gas) that has impacted history for close to two thousand years.
Oh, so "AD" is supposed to mean something? How about "Wednesday"? Good
grief.
SA> Actually, he never said that to me. I merely commented on his
SA> failed attempt to insult someone (you? dunno).
Yeah, it WAS to laugh, wasn't it?
... Ways to skin a cat: #27 --- Use an electric belt sander
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Fascinating
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:43:52
--------
EID:ba07 1c3f0d60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Styx!
SA> Eve. She had an Apple in one hand, and a Wang in the other.
SA> Hell, she even had an Adam at her side. (Remember those?!)
SA> Eve was user friendly. She even let her kids practice I/O with
Fundies would argue that she had a Macintosh. But the evidence shows
that Adam had an Apple Too.
... Never mud-wrestle with a pig: You lose and he enjoys it
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Frederick Leff
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:48:16
--------
EID:78a8 1c3f0e00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Frederick!
26 Jan 94, dixit Frederick Leff ad Steve Quarrella:
FL> I've not yet taken advantage of there services. Looking
FL> forward to other books you can reccommend. Later....
Gerard Straub's SALVATION FOR SALE. Want a good laugh about Pat Robertson?
THAT is -the- book. The other one I wholeheartedly endorse is Frank Zappa's
THE REAL FRANK ZAPPA BOOK. Reading that will inspire you to wet your pants
again and again. :)
... Let people think they govern and they will be governed.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Frederick Leff
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:49:42
--------
EID:a72d 1c3f0e20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Frederick!
26 Jan 94, dixit Frederick Leff ad Steve Quarrella:
FL> Come on Steve! Any fool knows that Gee-sus could not have
FL> spoken Russian.
We have fools in this very forum who believe he spoke English. In light
of
that, I think it only fair to allege that Jesus spoke Russian, or better
still, if you want true omniscience, I'll allege that he spoke Esperanto
long before Zamenhoff even invented the damned language. "Prove me wrong".
... Southern DOS: "Ya'll reckon?" [yep/nope]
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1302 105/30 112/1 128/1
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Mormon History
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:39:32
--------
EID:2124 1c4164e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, J.J.!
28 Jan 94, dixit J.J. Hitt ad All:
JH> Does anyone know what happened to Oliver Cowdry? He was Jospeh
JH> Smith's secretary and right-hand-man (and probable co-author of
JH> the 'Book', assumeing they didn't steal the text from someone
JH> Anyone know what the real story is?
Let us know when you find out, eh? :)
... Diplomacy: Saying "Nice doggy" until you find a rock.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Pierce
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:47:56
--------
EID:b139 1c4165e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
28 Jan 94, dixit John Pierce ad All:
JP> Beware! The Jew is the antichrist.
Let me know how much plane fares are to Tehran, eh?
... Profanity: The linguistic crutch of inarticulate bastards
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Allegory?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:38:30
--------
EID:bcc4 1c4154c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
28 Jan 94, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> Will he chime "allegory" yet again?
JC> Where have I ever claimed anything was allegory?
Your simple inability to address my posts left me to make my own conclusions.
I'm still not certain as to how you propose to bring about this "Reign of
God" to which you have referred.
As for ignoring my wife, there have been several of her posts that you have
ignored, but you're getting better. Frankly, we both think you're out here
having us all on.
... Nine out of ten rotweillers prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: More lies
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:44:52
--------
EID:ce62 1c415580
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
28 Jan 94, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Fredric Rice:
JC> The emptiness, as I have made clear, afflicts us all -- me
JC> as well as Steve.
NO, YOU HAVE NOT MADE THAT CLEAR.
You have quoted Biblical scripture until you're blue in the face. You
have dropped names and made references to popular culture. You have
otherwise made no attempt to clarify that I'm empty.
Look, if you're trying to say "Human beings are naturally curious, so they
read books and try new things", just say so. As for this malarky about
that curiosity being some sort of manifestation of reaching out for your
deity, again, you made the claim, you provide the proof. Keep spinning
your
gears, Jesse. Are you going to quote some more scripture and tell me that
I'm being hateful?
JC> I have never said or implied that Steve "can't 'really be
JC> in love'".
No, you've said that "heathens" such as myself can't be thankful or
grateful. THAT is pure bullshit.
... The tin can was invented in 1812, the can opener in 1845.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:47:38
--------
EID:c26c 1c4155e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Johnny!
25 Jan 94, dixit Johnny Mckinney ad Steve Quarrella:
JM>> thing for sure is this..God lets the sunshine fall on
JM>> believers and non-believers alike. He loves you and he
JM>> loves me. Have a nice day Fred :)
SQ>> Download GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system and then we'll talk.
JM> Where is your system?
Dallas.
JM> I'm on a BBS in Houston. Give me your number.
214-412-8457.
JM> Number. BTW, in a sandstorm, you see the sand, not the wind.
JM> In a tornado, you see the debris, not the wind.
And? In a garbage scow, you see the garbage. And?
JM> God leaves
JM> evidence for all to see. A flower, the stars, a newborn baby
JM> of any species. Even Mr. Clinton who is talking on the TV as
JM> I type this message.
Only Christians presuppose that their deity has time for the American
political scene. As for evidence, I'll be looking for you to download
that GIF. Then we'll discuss it (I'll be eagerly awaiting the tried and
true "Man does evil things, not God" excuse.).
JM> (I think)
Do you?
... When cows laugh, does milk come out their noses?
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:49:20
--------
EID:90a9 1c415620
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Johnny!
25 Jan 94, dixit Johnny Mckinney ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> We don't want to be like them. We want to live our lives as we see
SQ>> fit. This echo is a place to blow off the steam that is generated by
SQ>> those believers.
JM> I don't care who you have sex with or what you read, Steve,
JM> unless of course you start looking at my wife :)
We'll get along just fine then.
SQ>> You are guilty of uttering something that every Fundy before you has
SQ>> uttered. "You're afraid", they ask. And once again, the question
SQ>> (which always goes without answer, is "Why am I afraid?"
So why am I afraid? Afraid of what?
JM>> just my sincere observations. I respect every non-believers
JM>> right not to believe. They in turn should also respect
JM>> believers.
I am a firm believer in "You reap what you sow."
... All I want for Christmas is Santa's list of naughty girls
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: GOD$LOVE.GIF
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:50:00
--------
EID:426a 1c415640
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Johnny!
25 Jan 94, dixit Johnny Mckinney ad Steve Quarrella:
JM> Called the number you left me 214-412-8457 but keep getting
JM> busy signal.
Will be watching.
JM> Will try later after I listen to Mr. Clinton
JM> speak. That is if he doesn't raise my taxes to high where I
JM> can't afford the long distance call :)
It's OK...he's just doing what his predecessor did.
... No, no, nurse! I said SLIP off his SPECTACLES!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:58:32
--------
EID:7a40 1c415740
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
29 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Luke Enriquez:
le>> Death sits waiting to tap us at any minute,
FR> Simply don't turn around and look.
Or....
... Never knock on death's door: Ring the doorbell and run instead.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Advanced civilizations -- in your dreams
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:09:08
--------
EID:d54b 1c415920
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
With: Ron Ballew, in absentia
Hwaet, Fredric!
29 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> Boy, it sure got quiet out in SKEPTIC, didn't it?
FR> Good!
It puzzles me as to how I, as an amateur linguist, got the guy to shut up
about his Biblical English claims, yet he continues spouting off physics
that would have put Einstein on the floor. Was it Hector Plasmic who said
"Stephen Hawking has walked further in his wheelchair than you have with
your own two legs"? I always liked that.
rb>>> Just watch The Learning Channel (TLC).
Just typical. You can hear Ron Stringfellow now, in fact: "Next!"
FR> I forgot that the clown pointed at TLC as an
FR> 'authority.'
No, he pointed at TV as an authority. *Important point*
FR>> The credability of the entertainment industry in matters
FR>> scientific is zero.
This much is certain.
rb>> You missed a very important point: Let's have a little
rb>> discussion about CBS' last little folly about Noah's Ark.
Crickets again?
... An elephant is a mouse with an operating system.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Suzy Quarrella
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:18:56
--------
EID:0e1b 1c415a40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
With: Fredric Rice
29 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Suzy Quarrella:
SQ>> ... AIDS cures queers (see Romans 1:27) [Steve Winter]
szq>> Now that's hateful!
And so very Christian: As I mentioned to you in the car the other night,
what you have here is someone shooting an arrow into the wall and THEN
painting a target around it. Winter hates "queers", and he simply uses
Jesus
to excuse his hatred. We see plenty of that in these parts, don't we?
FR> We were all disgust-ted by this quote of Steve Winter's. I
FR> sent a policy complaint to his network coordinator on the
FR> grounds that he was being too annoying.
And of course, you were probably told that you were being too easily annoyed.
And probably some of the old "Freedom of Speech"/"Freedom of Religion"
dodge too. Why people willingly transport his hatred around the globe
escapes me.
... When your chocolate bar melts in the fridge... You're in Arizona!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:22:08
--------
EID:29a7 1c415ac0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
29 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Suzy Quarrella:
FR>> I'll bet you a George Bush <-spit-> American Dollar
szq>> Now you're being hateful! I like George and I like Ronnie.
FR> <-gasp-!> Certainly you can't be serious! Ron, sure! I mean,
FR> who _wouldn't_ like to have some time alone with the guy but
FR> George!?
Oh, she's serious alright, and don't call her 'Shirley'. Hey, you know
who
her uncle is. :)
FR> Your posts give lie to that statement. Really, having ones
FR> photograph available for download is quite unusual (and
FR> unnatural.) }:-}
I have a new one to put up soon, and am working on GIFs for Don Martin and
my wife, plus some stuff that'll get a good laugh out of a few people
here. Looks like one of the mighty programmers got himself a good scanner.
:)
... Support your Sysop: Send him your paycheck.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Don Martin
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:26:00
--------
EID:31b0 1c415b40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Don!
27 Jan 94, dixit Don Martin ad Steve Quarrella:
DM> And the Vulgate was in Latin--
But of course. Important piece of work, that (and it's fun to read. :).
DM> it wasn't all THAT vulgar as
DM> to be in English. Back then you didn't COUNT as literate
DM> unless you could read Latin.
This is true...I don't recall Anglo-Saxon being a "learned" language.
But what was considered to be learned BEFORE William rolled into
Normandy?
DM> Standards have fallen sadly
DM> in the past few centuries . . . .
They're doing now what they should have done a thousand years ago: Put
it
into pictures, since all the followers can't read or think anyways.
[Generalization alert! Hyperbole alert!]
... Now diamonds AND AIDS are forever.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: More ignorance being displayed by the creationist
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:45:46
--------
EID:51c1 1c415da0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
29 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Fredric Rice:
MG> I have, this very day, areafixed skeptic, atheist, and
MG> evolution from Steve Q. Now I'll have three times the fun.
You need to afix EVOLUTION again. :) Come and git it!
... And the words of the prophet were written on taglines...
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Stewart Harris
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:50:06
--------
EID:a3e9 1c415e40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
29 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Steve Quarrella:
SH>>>>In 1975 I have a dream.
SQ>> Maybe someone will shoot him...we know what happened to the last
SQ>> guy who said that.
MG> Bad form. We don't want to be seen as fundies with a gun in
MG> their hand for the lord.
Yes, but I didn't say that _I_ was going to shoot him. I find the claims
of
a madman to the effect of "I have a perpetual motion" machine to be risable
in the very least, in fact.
... Chicken heads are the chief food of captive alligators.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:54:32
--------
EID:34cf 1c415ec0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, John!
29 Jan 94, dixit John Musselwhite ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> -- xMail 1.00
Tool of the Devil listed above. I don't think the Squish support is up
to
speed at this point, and I've taken care of it already. Some of my stuff
got nailed, and some of David's got hit, but I rescanned everything and
sent it out.
... "....always running at someone's bleeding heel..."
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Judas failed miserably
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:01:18
--------
EID:5b11 1c416020
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Marilyn!
29 Jan 94, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Fredric Rice:
MB> There are some things about the Xian viewpoint on this one
MB> that I have a hard time reconciling with reality. If you just
MB> look at their explanation for the seeming contradiction
MB> regarding death method, it makes no sense. If I can picture
MB> their explanation, it requires Judas to climb out on a limb
MB> that overhangs a cliff, tie a rope around the limb, then tie
MB> the other end around his neck, then jump. Upon jumping, he
MB> discovers the hard way that the rope was not very sturdy, it
MB> breaks, and he tumbles down the cliff.
Hey, I've got the answer:
Judas sold God's kid out, so God got revenge on him by making him die
strangely.
No?
... Your grandmother used a 300 baud acoustical modem!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Adam...
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:02:16
--------
EID:6c79 1c416040
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Dan!
28 Jan 94, dixit Dan Lafferty ad Styx Allum:
DL> I do. The clergy in MY church are not full time and are NOT
DL> payed. They have no reason to sugar coat or sensationalize the
DL> doctrine, indeed if they did they would be in for a reprimand
DL> and perhaps early removal. I say early because they are not in
DL> life long positions any way as the typical length of service
DL> for a bishop being four years.
Are you a Mormon, Dan?
... Creationist Nonsense Detected: (S)ave, (D)elete, (L)augh like hell?
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Drew Webber
Sub: About Love...
Date: 01 Feb 94 16:53:28
--------
EID:425f 1c4186a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Drew!
28 Jan 94, dixit Drew Webber ad Steve Quarrella:
DW> There is an easier way to get this file across.. UUENCODE it.
I would rather not, as it would quickly fill this echo up, and then we'd
hear the calls of "I didn't see part x...can you repost?" Let the Fundies
read that "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate" when they log on my
board. :)
DW> many messages.. like 50. And UUENCODING files is a sure
DW> fire way to piss off moderators.. :)
It'll get you yelled at in the echo I moderate. :)
... After they make styrofoam, what do they ship it in?
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Dahl
Sub: God DOOMit!
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:08:58
--------
EID:57f0 1c418900
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
30 Jan 94, dixit David Dahl ad All:
DD> The following is a message I read in Usenet.
Oh, that was rich. Thanks! :)
DD> First of all, I realize this newsgroup is about action
DD> games and not religion or organized philisophies.
"So I'll just throw another log on the fire and show how superstitious I
am."
DD> If you're not interested in a (hopefully) intelligent
DD> Christian response,
I've seen plenty of "intelligent Christian responses" about Doom. If that's
intelligent, we're all in deep trouble.
DD> Some of the recent postings show an ignorance in four
DD> main areas: Jesus Christ, the Bible, Christians, and
DD> (ooh!) reality.
"So let's ban Doom already. It's heretical."
DD> *** Jesus Christ ***
DD> In all of my (albeit limited) experience, the only
DD> people who slam Him like we've seen, are people who've
DD> never known Him personally and intimately.
Isn't it amazing how they always miss the point? It's not Jesus we slam
(That would be like slamming Hamlet), but rather his intolerant followers.
DD> To claim to
DD> have even a basic knowledge of true Christianity or of
DD> Jesus himself without the above, is to broadcast your
DD> own ignorance.
Of course. Here's where we get the secret handshake.
DD> choose a personal relationship with Him..."I'm on my
DD> own trip. I don't want to make Jesus my Lord",
"I don't want to make Hamlet my Lord."
DD> What this means to you:
DD> You can accept or reject His offer. To deny the offer exists is
DD> the same as rejecting it. Either way, you will (are)
Oho! Here's where we get that old song and dance that we've heard in this
echo so many times. It's a shame that Dopefish can't get through to this
guy.
So what did his nonsense have to do with Doom?
DD> relishing the fact that most people will go to hell,
DD> and wacked out on FAAIITH. If you look around enough,
DD> you will find these people.
Why aren't they as vocal as the nuts?
DD> The Bible is true, and deserves to be treated like it.
DD> out. DON'T use a King James if you can help it, unless
DD> you are a literature major or are fluent in 17th
DD> Century English. Try an NIV, NRSV, NKJV, Living, etc.
That's right. Get something that his been reduced to its primaries by
simpletons. Wanna impress me? Read it in the original (which I can't do,
unfortunately). Frankly, though, I think Ralph Stokes and Ron Ballew would
be insulted that this guy has pooh-poohed their beloved KJV.
DD> *** Reality ***
DD> I've seen a few postings from people who want to call
DD> "Mephistopheles" Lord, enjoy Satanism, etc.
Do you have these posts, David? Or did this guy just make this up? For
all
of MY cracks about Satan at work, even the Christians know it's all a big
game I play for laughs.
DD> My response
DD> to you is that you haven't experienced the fullness of
DD> Satan himself, or his minions.
Oh, so he has?
DD> You're a joke.
Likewise, I'm sure.
DD> If Jesus truly was raised from the dead, then every
DD> word He said is important and needs to be listened to.
If? And "If not"?
DD> You will be/are held accountable for His teachings
DD> whether you accept them or not. Again, this is assuming
DD> He was raised from the dead.
Oh yes, that little minor point there.
DD> for everyone to see (if they can see it). If you have
DD> the ability to suppress spasms, keep the postings
DD> focused on computer games and away from Jesus unless
DD> you have something positive and meaningful to say.
So was this aimed at all of the Fundies (as it should have been), or at
the
people who were telling the Fundies they were full of shit?
DD> round out the wackiness of the original "Jesus is
DD> coming soon because of the current state of the world."
Yes, we missed him during the Inquisition and the Reign of Terror in France
and Vietnam and all those other "horrible times".
DD> masses). And it serves to balance out the Jesus sucks!
DD> the Bible sucks! and All Christians suck! postings. He,
-Idiots suck-.
DD> Benjamin Greenwood
DD> greenwb4341@cobra.uni.edu
DD> 319-266-0931
Now THIS is tempting.
... Sisyphus never worked with a LAN.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Larry Brewer
Sub: "antichrist"
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:11:28
--------
EID:ad65 1c418960
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Larry!
30 Jan 94, dixit Larry Brewer ad Martin Goldberg:
LB> christians talk about {or a christian hell). Second, please be
LB> careful because people like this in the last 1900 years have
LB> murdered millions of Jews (I could fill this echo with
LB> atrocities that the Church did against the Jews).
Stick around, Larry, as I'm going to be shortly posting a semi-daily
atrocity, in the same vein as the Bicentennial moments that were aired back
in '76. Lots of good stuff about conversos and limpieza de sangre.
LB> Jesus was some savior....
He only cares for middle-class white people, it seems.
... Goodmail goes to recipients; BADMAIL goes EVERYWHERE!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: TRIVIAL THINGS
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:12:28
--------
EID:fb78 1c418980
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Amy!
27 Jan 94, dixit Amy Anderson-Coffin ad Steve Quarrella:
CJ>> SQYou also seem to ignore the pure political force that was used to
CJ>> make th SQ"anno domini" a standard. Are you aware that it was a
CJ>> crime, punishable SQdeath, to not believe in God for a long period
of
CJ>> European history?
Sure enough: Crickets chirping. I aimed that at Lonnie Coleman too, but
yet received no reply.
AA> And in Massachusetts it's illegal to use tomatoes in clam
AA> chowder.
Why is that? I can just imagine all of the great laws we have here in Texas.
... Calm down ... it's only ones and zeros.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: The Reign of God is at h
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:15:18
--------
EID:2cee 1c4189e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Amy!
27 Jan 94, dixit Amy Anderson-Coffin ad Steve Quarrella:
CJ>> Just like any other cop out, when faced with a possibility that has
a
CJ>> long tradition and historical background to support it
SQ>> Oh. Is this where we get into the "It's old so it must be right.
SQ>> After all, lots of people have written about it." debate?
Thus far, nothing but crickets. Ten bucks that if he returns, he pulls
out a bunch of "ad hoc"s and "ad hominem"s and a slew of other "ad"s that
make him look like he knows what's going on. I don't think he quite
understands that other people can play quote war, and out of those authors
I mentioned, I can produce plenty of writings to support any position I
can dream up.
... I'd post a Pro-Life saying, but there's no ANSI swastika.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: RELIGION OF DAN
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:23:46
--------
EID:4294 1c418ae0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Amy!
27 Jan 94, dixit Amy Anderson-Coffin ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Like I said, there's that bit about creating god/God in one's own
SQ>> image. Picture Sir Ralph Richardson with a bottle of Bass Ale. :)
AA> GUINNESS, you heathen.
As an established stout drinker, Guinness just doesn't cut it much of the
time for me, and I find that the stout produced in small brew pubs is really
the best stuff I've had. I'd have to say, though, that Molson Porter is
a
favourite of mine, but in any case, I wouldn't want to be drinking a stout
or
a porter right after creating the cosmos: The stout is reserved for when
I'm
sitting around AFTERWARDS, surveying my handywork. The ales (such as a
good
red) are reserved for after the hard work is finished. :)
... If space is a vacuum, who changes the bags?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:28:28
--------
EID:104a 1c418b80
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
28 Jan 94, dixit C. J. Henshaw ad Steve Quarrella:
CJ> Yup. I happen to have a detailed file on brainwashing
CJ> meathods, and food deprivation is one of the most effective
CJ> ones on the list, along with high-sugar foods and sleep
CJ> depravation. I can post the file here if you want. Note that
CJ> it's in _RTF_ format, not plain text. (This is due to large
CJ> amounts of text formatting)
I'd be interested in seeing that, but RTF?
What you describe above reminds me of "The Graduate School" experience
(and there were times that I felt a certain sense of euphoria after going
sleepless for two days).
... TAGline? It's a MAXline!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Debate
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:33:16
--------
EID:e866 1c418c20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, John!
30 Jan 94, dixit John Musselwhite ad John Windsor:
JW>> d. Mormons are too nice to argue with.
JM> I just don't want to answer to their "secret police"!
I FINALLY got around to buying a copy of Cheap Trick's DREAM POLICE awhile
back, for just the title track. I've razzed Suzy about this one almost
since I've known her. :)
"The Church Police they live inside of my head
The Church Police they come to me in my bed
The Church Police they're coming to arrest me, oh no!"
You know that talk is cheap and those rumours ain't nice
And when I fall asleep I don't think I'll survive..the night."
Cause they're waiting for me, they're looking for me
Every single night they're driving me insane
Those men inside my brain"
[...]
Scary, isn't it?
... Nature always bats last.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Lies
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:35:48
--------
EID:8c7e 1c418c60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, David!
31 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Jesse C. Jones:
sq>> He also seems to be ignoring my wife (which
sq>> is a good thing in some aspects, I suppose. :).
JCJ>> I have not ignored your wife.
DR> Them's fighting words!
If only I could take him seriously.
... Black plastic electrical tape is the work of the Devil
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: AND FOR THE RECORD
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:37:58
--------
EID:f155 1c418ca0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
With: Johnny McKinney
Hwaet, David!
31 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Johnny Mckinney:
JM>> God leaves evidence for all to see. A flower, the stars, a
JM>> newborn baby of any species. Even Mr. Clinton who is talking
JM>> on the TV as I type this message. (I think)
Why are we here? Because we're here. Roll the bones...roll the bones.
Why does it happen? Because it happens! Roll the bones...roll the bones.
[Stolen from Styx' favourite band, of course. :) ]
... Dyslexic agnostic: "I wonder if there is a dog".
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: More Ark stuff
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:44:28
--------
EID:cf56 1c418d80
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
31 Jan 94, dixit mick howland ad All:
mh> Excavation pictures may reveal Noah's Ark
mh> ADELAIDE: An archaeologist has released graphic photos of the
mh> excavation of a vessel believed to be Noah's Ark.
You need to go back and get your picture taken in front of that ship's
wheel.
... Please return stewardess to original upright position.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Judgment
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:45:54
--------
EID:60ca 1c4195a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
29 Jan 94, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Joe Siegler:
JC> Oh, I see. That must be in one of the non-canonical
JC> gospels, where Jesus said, don't judge, but it's okay to
JC> make negative observations and snide comments.
What if he read it in the book of "someone learned"? That seems to appeal
to you.
JC> What do I think? I think this place is a cesspool where
JC> evangelical atheists vie with each other to see how cool
JC> they can be by insulting, flaming, and ridiculing people
JC> of faith.
-Why do you stay here if that's the case-? It amazes me that you cry and
bemoan the fact that there are no bunnies and light to be found here, yet
you stick around and add to the signal-to-noise ratio. Why is that?
Frankly, I think your time would be better spent not in the pursuit of
changing the minds of "heathens", but rather in getting your fellow club
members to adhere to the ideals of this "Reign of God" to which you have
vaguely referred. Why don't you do that?
JC> I think we Christians are too eager to be liked by secular
JC> people, so instead of defending brothers and sisters in
JC> Christ when they are being persecuted, we laugh with them.
Many of your club members aren't gaining points with "secular people" (You
forgot to tell Joe that you call them "heathens", remember?) with their
attitudes towards sex, education, or minorities (The list goes on, of
course.)...do you expect fags to come up to your club members and kiss them
when those same club members express an intent to kill them? Do you expect
me to smile and call you "Brother" when you make such an assinine claim
as "You heathens don't know how to be joyful or thankful." It is not I
who should cater to your Jesus grovelling, learn that now, Fundamentalist.
Sometimes your "brothers and sisters in Christ" deserve their rewards.
Or should we open up our arms to your hateful flock and just let them
walk all over us?
... Every bride has to learn it's not her wedding but her mother's.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:46:54
--------
EID:0781 1c4195c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, William!
30 Jan 94, dixit William Stone ad Johnny Mckinney:
WS> I doubt these people in here will hear you as they are
WS> influenced by reprobate minds. They know nothing of the
WS> giving love of Jesus as he hanged on the cross, nor do
WS> they understand the deep peace and satisfaction from
WS> the substitution of faith for their so-called
WS> "scientific proof".
Obtain a copy of GOD$LOVE.GIF and then we'll talk about Jesus' love.
Unfortunately, due to your position in Herr Winter's network, you would
never be validated on my system, so you'll have to find it elsewhere.
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of
WS> rapture when we are caught up in glory and the earth
WS> swallows up them and their abominations. May they
WS> suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain as
WS> the burning fires of hell consume their flesh. I only
WS> wish I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
That's a nice Christian attitude you've got there, William. That's OK,
I hate your guts too. Mr. Winter has programmed you well, I see.
What do you think Jesus thinks about your bloodlust? No, not -my- so-called
sins, yours.
... We'll do Satan's work at an honest price. 1:124/9005
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 01 Feb 94 17:57:10
--------
EID:d9d6 1c418f20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
30 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
MG>> Hi,I don't know where you read that 'Christians are taught to hate
MG>> homosexuals'. The Bible says "hate the SIN not the SINNER".
sq>> Well, shit, Fred...so much for THAT theory. :-/
FR> Yeah, 10,000 newspaper article to the contrary are all lies.
Shit, we ought to invoke the "Many have written about it, so it must be
true!" party line right about now.
... The best way to accelerate a Mac is at -9.8 m/s^2
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:20:00
--------
EID:60ed 1c419280
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
30 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
rb>>> Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
sq>> So that means that we simply haven't seen the evidence for
sq>> Biblical English, and we should simply assume it's buried
sq>> somewhere, awaiting discovery.
"And there's no reply at all...no reply at all."
FR> Doubtless the clown wishes he had kept his yap shut.
Doubtless, yes, but as I mused in another message, it befuddles me that
he
continues with his rants about physics (har) in SKEPTIC, with his fingers
in
his ears, YET I simply tell him that there's no evidence for Biblical
English and he goes away. What's going on here?
FR> imagine someone making such a stupid mistake as to mouth-off
FR> what his religious masters told him in thinking forums. That's
FR> a very stupid mistake.
Ever hear of Joe Savelli?
... But who were the beta testers for Preparation A through G?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:47:20
--------
EID:d9d6 1c4195e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
30 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Dan Lafferty:
dl>> "Hets" don't engage in "homo" acts.
FR> What's a homo act? Please be specific as I don't wish to have
My wife tells me that one of her brothers (jobless, of course)
is all paranoid that "the fags" are trying to pick him up. Suzy informs
me
that he can't pick up ugly women, let alone fags. :)
... I found Jesus, and he said "Tag, you're it!"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: DEMON SEEDS
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:25:40
--------
EID:3b58 1c419320
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
30 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
JC>>> You heathens have been predicting,
sq>>> "Oh, denigrate me...scourge me!"
sq>> And, since he likes quoting so much, I'll throw in a
sq>> nice one from Genesis: "Yet there's no reply at all...no
sq>> reply at all." I wonder how close to the so-called truth I am.
So I am left to draw my own conclusions based on the available data, of
course.
FR> It's amazing just how much he doesn't know about those without
FR> a belief in deities.
Willful ignorance, Fred. Willful ignorance.
[MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER]
FR> This is the book that my public library couldn't keep on the
FR> shelf as it was constantly being slipped into a purse and
FR> sneeked out -- I presume to be destroyed. It's in the
FR> library now yet at the front desk. The library
Interesting...maybe that's what happened to it back in school.
FR> If you catch it before I do, perhaps you could drop a sentense
FR> or two from the back cover. I would be interested in hearing
FR> about the credentials of the authorship.
Will do. Anything that Zappa recommends (in his autobio) has to be good.
:)
... Our bikinis are exciting...they are simply tops!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: GODS AND GODDESSES ARE ALL WET BEHIND THE TAILS
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:28:18
--------
EID:6087 1c419380
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
31 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>>> But yet he dares not admit that his make-believe friend is no
sq>>> different than that of Robert's god-daughter (Gotta change the
sq>>> name of that title. :).
FR>> Strange, huh? Any normal, rational, thinking individual would
FR>> merely say either "yes" or "no" and either append disclaimers
FR>> as needed or not.
jcj>> I notice his participation has been reduced lately.
Ergo, we must assume that he has found Jesus.
sq>> It's amazing that so many people have written science
sq>> books, and the Fundies don't accept THOSE as truth.
FR> There will be claims that "that's different!"
Yes, I know.
FR> Steve! Start up your "Inquisistional Moments" series.
sq>> It took him a while, but he ignored some really good points that she
sq>> made previously (Such as "Aren't you being a bit hateful yourself?").
sq>> Surprise.
He STILL ignored that one.
FR> Well I, certainly, was surprised. (BTW: It's midnight here
FR> and your computer isn't answering in the background task. Put
No, Satan sabotaged it when we went away to Hot Springs for the weekend.
All is well now.
FR> I have a software project to mayhaps bounce off of you, now
FR> that you mention it. When or if your project with Reverened
FR> Jennings reaches a point where you have time, I'll upload my
FR> intentions to your system.
By all means, please do so.
... EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:31:24
--------
EID:c04e 1c4193e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
31 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> There is:
FR> o fiche - to counter
FR> o fictief - fiction
FR> o fijn - fine, subtle
FR> o fiks - robust, brave
Psst. It's colloquial. "To fuck". Same origins as "fokken" and "fuck".
sq>> Although I'm not a synchronic linguist by any means, I think the
sq>> minute humans began to speak they had different languages.
That's when the wars started. "I call great globe in sky 'Ug'. You call
great globe 'Zug'. I right, I kill you."
sq>> We don't even have attestations of
sq>> Proto-Indo-European, let alone English.
FR> In a 6000-year-old-universe, people have to contrive stories to
FR> account of diversity of language and even, sadly, skin color.
It's simple cultural arrogance. English is not only a newcomer on the
scene, but it's nothing in the sands of time.
... Heralds don't pun...they cant.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Adam...
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:34:04
--------
EID:c224 1c419440
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, jonny!
30 Jan 94, dixit jonny vee ad Steve Quarrella:
>> DO try to be a bit more hateful in the future, eh? :)
jv> Alright, fucker.
-Beautiful-. You speak my language!
>> Rather, they quote nonsense about ancient Earth empires and advanced
>> societies. :)
jv> Really? I never knew about that shit.
I heard it from a pastor on a Florida radio station.
Er...
Try watching The Learning Channel.
Er...
I have to admit only passing familiarity with Hubbard's Folly. I wouldn't
be seen dead reading his books.
jv> I thought they were all
jv> about e-meters and that kind of psycho-pseudo-scientific stuff.
They use THAT to get money out of you.
jv> I never knew they had any of that other kind o' crap. Of
jv> course, considering that it's a "religion" that was invented
jv> on a bet by a science fiction writer,
What IS the nature of this bet, BTW?
... "And Clint Eastwood as the Beaver..."
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: About Love...
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:35:24
--------
EID:08b4 1c419460
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, jonny!
30 Jan 94, dixit jonny vee ad Steve Quarrella:
>> Please download GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system (214-412-8457) and we'll
>> go further.
jv> Well, it seems that none of our religious buddies will look at
jv> this and complain, but I will.
I wonder why.
jv> Personally, I think that the picture does not demonstrate god's
jv> curse on humans, but human's curse on other humans.
From an non-theistic point of view, I agree with you. It represents
antipathy and apathy both.
However, when someone comes along and says "Jesus loves everybody!",
that's when I mention the GIF and await comment.
... Horoscope reading cancelled due to low cloud.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Starwyn
Sub: Harvey Smith
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:38:34
--------
EID:6b14 1c4194c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Starwyn!
31 Jan 94, dixit Starwyn ad All:
HS>>My friend you got none of your off the wall exegetics from
HS>>Christianity. Any 10 year old in my congregation looks at your
HS>>bible quotes, and just laughs...
Yes, well, the collective mental age of those in his congregation is 10,
you see.
HS>>out of context, and don't wish to admit that for 4,000 years the
HS>>pagans ruled the world, and made a mess out of it, and destroyed
HS>>10's of thousands of babies and perhaps millions, and hence you
HS>>want to be one of them who dash babies against the rocks and who
HS>>split open the bellies of all those who don't believe like you.
Oh, this is rich.
S> THEIR way or no way on the threat of death? And those that
S> refused were then PUT TO DEATH?
Ask him about the Inquisition.
S> think you have your religions mixed up and I demand an apology
Have you gotten it?
S> the truth. You are in a PAGAN echo telling US we are murderers
S> and liars. You've just shit on MY front porch
So light him on fire then. :) [Figuratively speaking, of course.]
HS>>Nonesense. you are attempting to live in a fantasy world...
S> And you are out of line...again!
And I see a pot calling a kettle "black".
... Mutants, out. Chameleonic life forms, no thanks.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Starwyn
Sub: harvey
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:40:32
--------
EID:7d11 1c419500
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Starwyn!
31 Jan 94, dixit Starwyn ad All:
HS>>Yes and we have history to show how vile, and evil the pagans
HS>>were in the past...
Harvey probably masturbates as he thinks about how badly HE'D like to
match the utter barbarity practiced in Odin's name. Of course, I'd say
shooting a handicapped man as he left a clinic (in cold blood, of course)
is as bad as hanging a human being and stabbing it with a spear in the name
of The Big Cheese.
S> Harvey? You'd love to see it happen again, wouldn't you? Have
But not in my yard.
S> be the one with the firewood, Harvey. Your hatred is showing
S> again. QUICK! Hide behind the bible and say it isn't so...
Send him a PRIME network application.
... He who slings mud loses ground.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Trent Hall
Sub: Transitional fossils
Date: 01 Feb 94 18:41:46
--------
EID:3c10 1c419520
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
31 Jan 94, dixit Trent Hall ad All:
TH> Show me extant transitional forms that did not exist a couple
TH> hundred years ago. While you're at it, be sure to disallow for
TH> the obvious adaptation in certain type of insects, etc. which
TH> still remain insects even after adaptation.
Let's cut to the chase here, Trent: Show me your God. Don't give me
your testimony, which isn't worth the toilet paper I use. Give me your
God.
... "Is there a Lawyer in the House? -=}BLAM!{=- Any more!?"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: All
Sub: Re: Voice Support Lines Clarified
Date: 01 Feb 94 21:58:46
--------
EID:c7f4 1c41af40
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d4ed0aa
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
=============================================================================
* Forwarded by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
* Area : MUFFIN (MUFFIN)
* From : Gary Gilmore, 1:2410/400 (Dies solis January 30 1994 22:06)
* To : Steve Winter
* Subj : Re: Voice Support Lines Clarified
=============================================================================
SW> Wannabe moderators make the noisiest twits, Matt. Many here
SW> use USR modems. My message was appropriate and useful.
SW> Your's, however, betrays a character defect.
YOUR message was a thinly veiled advertisment for your 4port cards.
Witness the fact you included pricing and where to buy in your message.
--Gary
PS: Don't bother replying with your usual childish name-calling.
... Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an idiot.
-+- Via Silver Xpress V4.00 BT040
+ Origin: Bloom County BBS * Dearborn, MI * (313)582-0888 (1:2410/400)
=============================================================================
Salue, All!
From a good friend of mine who has had some experience with Mr. Winter too.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: A response...
Date: 01 Feb 94 03:08:06
--------
EID:fbbf 1c411900
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4dcb56
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e951f8
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Saturday January 29 1994 14:09, Jerry Faust wrote to All:
JF> Regarding death in the Bible, God prohibited David from building His
JF> temple because of the David's bloodshed... indeed, David had killed
JF> many.
JF>
JF> I'm almost out of time, but I hope to continue this discussion soon.
Thnkas. That gives us just enough time to switch to a fresh barf-bag in
antic
ipation of your further myth and superstition postings.
--- InterMail 2.26
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: About Love...
Date: 01 Feb 94 03:13:07
--------
EID:8211 1c4119a0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4dcb67
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Saturday January 29 1994 19:27, J.J. Hitt wrote to Jerry Faust:
JF>> Moses did proclaim the coming rain for many years.
JJH>
JJH>
JJH> Gosh... my secular uninspired understanding of the story was that
JJH> Moses came AFTER the flood by at least a small handfull of centuries.
JJH>
JJH> Sure glad you know your Bible there....
Good! You have the echo-religionoid trapped in his babblical errors. Sad
whe
n they can't even get their fairy-tales listed in the right chronological
orde
r! Always happens when there are too many players on stage all at once.
;)
--- InterMail 2.26
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 03:18:08
--------
EID:6049 1c411a40
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4dca4c
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Patrick!
Saturday January 29 1994 23:12, Patrick Humphrey wrote to Johnny Mckinney:
JM>> I love you too, Marty
PH>
PH> I'd hope you've talked with your wife about that -- I thought you were
PH> a fundy, and they're not allowed thoughts like that, you know? :-)
For only $5.00 dollars a week in tithes...the jeesoid church will let them
lov
e anyone they wish.
--- InterMail 2.26
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 01 Feb 94 06:27:39
--------
EID:f61d 1c413360
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4e3cf8
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0e89cb49
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- Paluxy Revisite
d... -- with Don Martin on 29 Jan 94 10:39:
>dm> The World Almanac, 1994, lists 42 nations with fleets
>dm> totalling over 1 MILLION tons each on page 187.
FR> Military or commercial?
Commercial--I should have given the table heading of "Merchant Fleets".
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: About Love...
Date: 01 Feb 94 07:10:57
--------
EID:0e3f 1c413940
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d4e46fa
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:387/303 52e94eb8
A pregnant pause ensued as Jerry Faust shared a conception -- About Love...
--
with Sunjester on 29 Jan 94 13:55:
JF> Please see my general letter addressed to ALL on this echo. I
JF> have received many messages and I'll respond with a general letter.
Very likely because you lack to wit and honesty to deal with specific poi
nts, but we shall see.
I saw. The message to "all" is nothing but a series of "IS SO!" statemen
ts. Pathetic.
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Joe Siegler
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Judgment
Date: 01 Feb 94 23:13:00
--------
EID:e4e3 1c41b9a0
MSGID: 1:124/9006@fidonet.org 2e1b6081
JC>Oh, I see. That must be in one of the non-canonical gospels, where Jesus
JC>said, don't judge, but it's okay to make negative observations and snide
JC>comments.
Jesus was perfect, I'm not. I make mistakes, but I also admit to
them. If you choose to intrepret my comments that way, so be it. I
can't stop that. All I know is my intent, and it is not what you make
it out to be.
JC> I think people who can't spell well tend not to think well.
See your first quoted section above.
JC>What do I think? I think this place is a cesspool where evangelical
JC>atheists vie with each other to see how cool they can be by insulting,
flam
ing
And from what I've seen I would agree; so why do you bother? I don't
normally read this conference, but Steve Quarrella does. Since we
work together, I see a lot of what he reads from time to time, and I
saw your message that I originally replied to.
JC> What is it that you think?
About?
* 1st 1.15b #1051bt * I hate you, you hate me. -Barney for the 90's
--- QScan v1.06b
* Origin: * Arsenal of Freedom II * Garland, TX * 214-271-5410 (1:124/9006)
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: John Windsor
Sub: Debate
Date: 02 Feb 94 02:33:00
--------
EID:f147 1c421420
MSGID: 1:2617/117 11043da4
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First John Windsor Said: ]-----
> I always thought that Islam was the predominant religion. Anybody
> know?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Actually, it's probably Buddhism...
But what I meant by that was, the most widespread. There are many more
Christ
ians in the Middle East than Muslims in the US... :)
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: jonny vee
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 30 Jan 94 22:27:01
--------
EID:9506 1c3eb360
MSGID: 1:247/133 10034529
>Does radioactive decay have a cause, Mr Vanderzwaag? How about a
Well, actually, I spoke to one of the physics profs at the university that
I a
m attending, and according to him, the causal chain in beta decay (which
was t
he example that Frederic Rice used) is complete, and is not an instance
of an
event without a cause. (I'll deal with that in a message to him.)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Physics as I understand some
Date: 30 Jan 94 23:59:02
--------
EID:e1fc 1c3ebf60
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452a
>There is no 'cause' just as there is no cause for spontanious(sp)
>beta decay, if I understand the process of beta decay properly.
I would contend that you do not understand the process of spontaneous beta
dec
ay properly according the work of Abdus Salam, Steven Weinburg, and Sheldon
Gl
ashow. (Nobel prize winners 1979 for work on the weak nuclear force.) The
"cau
sal chain" is complete in any instance of beta decay.
Now, in regard to whether the Big Bang has a cause of not, you Hector and
a nu
mber of others (the list is growing daily) are implying that you have knowledg
e about something, that theoretically, you cannot have knowledge of. Steven
We
inberg in his book "The First Three Minutes" notes that we cannot discuss
what
happened at the instant the Big Bang happened (no frame zero) because the
tem
perature is infinitely high. We can only discuss those events which occured
wh
en the temperature was a mere 100,000 million degrees Kelvin.
Hence all of your speculations about what occured or did not occur prior
to
the big bang are nothing more than that: speculations. To state that there
is
a no causal chain of events which lead to the formation of the universe
is gro
undless. What I have contended is simply this: there is no reason to think
tha
t the Big Bang does not have a cause. To that end, I have presented a very
cog
ent argument to support that contention. But this to is nothing more than
spec
ulation and conjecture on my part. I cannot know for sure, hence that is
why I
take the agnostic positon. Logically however, there is nothing for us to
supp
ose that the Big Bang, as an event, is any different from any other event.
Now, what happened prior (temporally that is) has been a matter of debate
for
years within the scientific community. What we currently have are a series
of
thories; even Weinberg and Hawking admit that either the oscillating model
or
steady state model of the universe are "attractive" because they avoid the
que
stion of a "genesis". Hawking admits that scientists tend not to "like"
certai
n explainations, or bracket out certain facts, in order to avoid the "creator"
quesiton. However, what we "like" or find "attractive" is not always the
case
. The mere fact that they "like" one theory or are "attracted" to another
beca
use it avoids certain theistic implications means that they have a bias,
and a
re not that objective about things at all. The Bills would have loved to
win t
he Superbowl tonight, but that was not going to happen. I imagine that they
di
d not "like" the fact that they were beaten for a fourth straight time,
or wer
e not all that "attracted" to it, but that doesn't change a thing.
I have pointed out to Hector (in a message that he completely avoided for
some
strange reason :) ...) that Hawking, after all of the considerations he
makes
in "A Brief History of Time" is still faced with the question of the possible
"role" of a "creator", and keeps on talking about "god" right up to the
last
sentence. If this is still an issue for him, this means that he could not
rule
it out. The possibility still exists, which is all that I have been saying.
The "why" of the universe, why it exists at all, is still a question, which
actually falls under the purview of philosophy, but has also been questioned
b
y physicits (who have noted its philosophical import). We cannot answer
that q
uestion, and until we "can" answer that question we cannot speculate with
cert
ainty about the answer. To say that there is a "creator" is no more plausible
or reasonable than to say that there is not, however, what I have been contend
ing is that it is best to suspend your judgment until all the facts are
in.
Why that presents a problem to you is something that you will have to work
out
on your own. From a logical standpoint however, what I have contended here
is
perfectly tenable.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 31 Jan 94 01:23:03
--------
EID:d5c4 1c3f0ae0
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452b
>accurate. Certain particle decay processes all the way down to
>hadron experience effect prior to cause. Interactions between
>some particles exhibit an effect prior to the cause (which is
>usually a proton-proton collision.)
I would suggest that you look into the work of Steven Weinberg, Sheldon
Glasho
w, and Abdus Salam, and their work on the weak nuclear force. You will find
th
at the causal chain is intact. About the Hardon experience, well, I will
have
to look into that. From what I have discussed with my Physics professors,
ther
e is nothing in either quantum physics or nuclear physics (relativity) which
c
ontradicts the "law of causation", or breaks any of its rules.
>That is merely incorrect. As I mentioned, time is a spacial
>dimention just like up is a spacial dimention. It is defined by
Incorrect. Time is not a spacial dimension of the universe. Space is space,
ti
me is time. The two are much different, although they pertain to the same
thin
g. When I state that the Earth is, on average, approximately ninety-three
mill
ion miles from the sun, or the moon two-hundred and forty thousand miles
from
the Earth, no temporal designation is required. When I discuss the size
of the
monitor that I am looking at (fourteen inches) this is independent of any
tem
poral designations. Spatial dimensions can be discussed independently of
tempo
ral ones.
>dimention just like up is a spacial dimention. It is defined by
>the rate of expansion of the universe just as the speed of light
>is defined by the rate of expansion of the universe. If a
Time is also not measured according to the "rate of expansion of the
universe". Our temporal designations were defined according to the length
of a
day, which is relative to the time it takes for the Earth to spin once.
Our ye
ar is subdividied according to the amount of time that it takes for the
earth
to orbit around the sun. We measure the age of the universe according to
those
terms, and not the other way around.
>compaction phase is experienced, we can expect effect to preceed
>time in the macro universe -- something totally foreign to us.
Read Red Dwarf and Even Better than life. :)
>That, too, is incorrect. Time is granular; quantinized. There
>is a point where one may take a second and divide it in half a
>certain nubmer of times until it can't be divided again. If you
That was a position held by Descartes also in the 1600's. Time, unlike atoms,
are not rooted in any "quantized" particles. There are rates which provide
a s
ense of continuity (i.e. the 24 frames per second of a comic strip) and
it has
been found that at 120 frames per second provides an almost "real" sense
to i
t, but that does not denote a quantized value for time. We currently have
high
speed cameras which can shoot film at over 300 frames per second, but how
fas
t could we go??? Is there a point at which the time/space continum would
break
down, and thereby allow us to fold space and time??? This very issue was
cove
red in an theory called the Gulliver hypothesis, which attempts to argue
that
it would be theoretically possible to step beyond space and time according
to
the particle model of time. However the means by which this threory attempts
t
o prove this, is by the supposed imbalence between rational and irrational
num
bers, in which it is conceivable that the number of irrational numbers would
p
otentially be infinite within an infinte set of numbers.
>Chronons may very well be exactly like this. Space and time are
>merely two representatives of the same phenomena.
May is the operative word here. I would suggest that you read the Guliver
Hypo
thesis in order to determine its truth value. From what I understand of
that h
ypothesis, you are incorrect in your assumptions about the granulization
of ti
me. Time and space are not the same.
>And now that you know of the existance of chronons? In any
I don't believe in the existence of chronons, and I think that you are just
tr
ying to bullshit your way through something with a lot of technical terms
hopi
ng that I might not call your bluff. Well, you are wrong. Time is the sine
qua
non of change, and that is all that there is to it. No matter how long it
tak
es for the change to occur, we can still talk about it in mili-seconds or
nano
-seconds, and any decimal place there of. Any stretch of time, regardless
of h
ow small, has a beginning and an end to it.
>The count of the number of atoms passing through the valiance
>shell of an atom defines time as it is set and quantinized. If
That marks a definition that you have set to indicate a "chronon" of time.
How
ever, how long does it take for one atom to pass through the valiance shell
of
an atom, moreover, how long does it take for one electron to pass through
the
field of another electron. It is possible to speak of the speed of light
bein
g 186,000 miles per second. What would be the fraction of time it took for
a p
hoton of light to travel half of its own length? How about a quarter, or
any m
ovement at all across any fraction of the photon's length? If we took into
acc
ount the wave particle duality of light, we would understand that such a
movem
ent constitutes a "change of position" and hence can be called an event.
Any m
ovement under the wave particle duality of light would constitute an event,
wh
ich can be defined in temporal terms. Kinda blows that whole "chronon" idea
to
shit doesn't it?
The rest of your message uses this presupposition as its foundation, so
I will
disrgard it entirely.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Hey, what happened to you???
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:05:04
--------
EID:b8cb 1c3f10a0
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452c
>Why should Hector always do your homework for you? Many
>participants have spent a great deal of time and effort to
>educate you about physics and contemporary cosmologies which you
>soundly ignore. If you are unwilling to listen to the answers,
>please don't waste our time asking questions, okay?
Fredric, this is bullshit. I have done my homework on this issue, and have
rea
d plenty on the subject. No I am not a physics major, but I discuss philosophi
cal issues, as well as issues in Physics with other students at the university
that I go to all the time. One of the profs in our dept. has a PhD in theoret
ical mathematics, and has in the past worked for Nasa. (Robert Malone) When
he
discusses philosophical issues, he starts from physics and then goes on
from
there. Thus I have had a very qualified mentor to explain many of the issues
w
hich I am talking to you about now. I have also read, and discussed in detail
with other professors (physics) Steven Weinberg's "The First Three Minutes"
an
d Hawkings latest two books "Black Holes and Other Essays" and "A Brief
Histor
y of Time". No, I cannot explain General Relativity fully, with all of the
mat
hematical formulas that go along with it, but I have a fairly good grasp
of mo
st theories in Physics.
Undoubtedly it is you that needs to read a little more before you end up
stick
ing your foot in your mouth. As I have indicated in a previous message,
you do
not know me. You have never sat down and talked with me for any length of
tim
e, and if you met me on the street you wouldn't even know it. Your making
all
of these assumptions about me, and what you think I know or don't know only
ma
kes you look like a moron. Quit "assuming" things about me, and take a good
lo
ok at what I am posting. If you don't like what you see, fine, but if you
are
going to disagree with it post some real facts and not this kind of crap.
You'
re not proving your points this way.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:22:05
--------
EID:d1e9 1c3f12c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452d
Condition: Sober, conscious
Are you happy now???
>How are we to tell if you are drunk or sober when you post, Rick?
>If you don't want impressions to continually consider that you
>are drunk with each post, how about posting at the top of each
>message your current cognative status?
Well, being drunk or sober has little to do with the substance of this debate.
Drunk or sober, I would contend that my IQ rating is at least 30 points
above
yours. At least I know that I will sober up, but you on the other hand will
s
till be stupid. :)
>He raised several good points. If you can not be expected to be
He raised bulshit. At one moment he contended that universe has a beginning,
a
nd then it doesn't, that time has a beginning and then it doesn't, and that
so
mthing that is infinite is actually finite. He also finds it necessary to
defi
ne terms according to "his" understanding of the word, and when someone
posts
the definition, he ignores it. I don't think that he has a very good understan
ding of the English language (evidenced by him not knowing what irrelevant,
ob
viate, infinite and finite mean) and that he has merely read one or two
books,
and now is an expert on the subject. He's a legend in his own mind, but
that
is about as far as it goes.
>My _friendly_ suggestion is to find a more expensive habit.
Cute, maybe you should take a .357 and blow your brains out. The world might
b
e a better place for it.
>Then __do__so__! Ask him for a formal challange and state the
>terms of the conditions.
Sure, you come up with the plane tickets, the auditorium, and fly everyone
of
our profs down there, and no problem, I'll take him on.
>terms of the conditions. As it is, you are entirely incapable of
>even discussing contemporary cosmologies or nuclear physics at
>__any__ level other than that of stupidity and ignorance.
Sure Fred, whatever....
>Were he to agree you would shit your pants and like as not show
>up drunker than The Lord on the day of the debate.
Drunk or sober, I would win. It would not matter. Hector is a brainless
child
that didn't get enough attention as a child, and got picked on a little
too mu
ch.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 31 Jan 94 03:09:06
--------
EID:ae7a 1c3f1920
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452e
>If you're at t1 and then at t2 you've hardly become "incompatible"; look
>it up. Perhaps you carelessly chose an incorrect word, eh?
Oh you are such a moron. If at t1 object A is in location A, and then at
t2 ob
ject A is in location B, then you have two incompatible states of one and
the
same thing. Location A and B are not the same, hence they are different.
Objec
t A cannot occupy location A and B at the same time. If its not in location
A,
then it is in location B and vice-versa. The object is always the same,
but t
he location and time change. It cannot occupy both locations at both times.
To
be in one location at one time and another location at another time denotes
t
wo incompatible states of one object. First it is here, then it is there.
Henc
e, is object A is at first in Location A and then later in Location B, then
we
have two incompatible states of one and the same thing.
Didn't you learn anything in Physics???
>remember that you have no time without space and no space without a
>universe to define it.
This is a point which you take for granted, however, you have not managed
to p
rove at all that time is merely a property of the universe, or that time
canno
t exist independently of the universe. What you think here doesn't count,
what
you can prove does. Now, prove that there was no time prior to the Big Bang,
and then we'll talk about this mindless drivel you spouted here.
Both the oscillating model of the universe (Big Bang --> Big Crunch -->
Big Ba
ng, etc., etc.,) and the steady state model discuss events prior to the
Big Ba
ng, hence there is a "before" and therefore "time". In a universe full of
caus
es, it is perfectly valid to ask what the cause of that universe is, and
then
what the cause that of that was. Everything else has a cause, so it is up
to y
ou to justify why the Big Bang should be treated any different. If you are
goi
ng to say that the Big Bang is all the proof that you need, then you are
just
like the fundy that says that the Bible is all that he needs. No, there
isn't
a universe created everyday, but I would like to know exactly how you can
say
unequivocally that there is no cause to the Big Bang. Obvously you witnessed
t
his phenomenon, and therefore you are an authority on the subject. You don't
k
now whether or not there is a cause to the Big Bang, and for that matter
neith
er do I. If you think that you can prove that the Big Bang does not have
a cau
se, then post it here, otherwise this is mere speculation and conjecture
on yo
ur part. (I'm pretty sure that like a fundy on the run, you will avoid that
is
sue, and just post more of your usual diatribe) What I have contended is
perfe
ctly logical, that since everything else has a cause, then so too does the
Big
Bang.
>universe to define it. Your examples all require both time and space to
>exist; hence they apply _to the universe_, not to Elsewhere.
Elsewhere, which you so conveniently place at the end of this sentence,
indica
tes another place. Another place means another space. Place means a location
i
n space. Maybe you should work on your terminology a little here, and then
get
back to me, you sound very confused about what this all means.
>Elsewhere is irrelevant as it can't interact with the universe.
If the "cause" of the universe is "elsewhere", then it did interact with
the u
niverse, for it was the cause of the universe. It "causally" interacted
with t
he universe. Get it???
>want more. Perhaps "Cosmology for Complete Idiots..."
You must be talking about what your view is..... fundy....
>Very good; it's Event One. The moment when time and space came into
>being. There's no "before" time, so we'll skip meaningless conjecture.
Ah, there is an "elsewhere" according to you, but not a "before"??? Obvously
y
ou can prove this.... Prove it, then I'll believe you. No proof, and I'll
cont
inue to maintain the same position that I have right now, and dismiss yours
as
the illogical diatribe that it is.
>Is the uniqueness of the big bang what bothers you?
Not at all. I just disagree with you that the Big Bang does not have a cause.
I have asked you to prove that it does not, and this is the best that you
can
do. Not very convincing there Hec. Prove that there is no cause to the Big
Ban
g.
>guesses;
That is what your contention that the Big Bang does not have a cause is.
A gue
ss. You cannot know anything about what lies beyond the universe, or that
happ
ened before the universe, so to state that it does not have a cause is a
load
of shit there Hec. Prove that it does not have a cause. That does not mean
pro
ve that it does not need a cause, it means prove that it does not have a
cause
.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 31 Jan 94 03:11:07
--------
EID:ae7a 1c3f1960
MSGID: 1:247/133 1003452f
>There are no other instances in which the universe was created,
Created, hmmmm you wouldn't be going fundy on us now would you???
Listen up moron, prove that the Big Bang does not have a cause; otherwise
this
whole diatribe is meaningless.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: You've got a lot in common with fundies...
Date: 31 Jan 94 03:15:08
--------
EID:46fb 1c3f19e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 10034530
>With mere concepts, you're right. With reality, of course, you seem to
be
>very wrong. Or have you been beating on a wall that's only sorta there?
Bullshit!
>I demand nothing of you, Rick. I merely point out the
>inadequacies of your arguments.
Bullshit, you have done nothing of the kind.
>But you either believe or you do not believe. Your phraseology,
Demanding that I take a side here???
>Do you believe a god exists ("accept as truth or real") or do you not
>believe it (not "accept as truth or real")? Or do you just refuse to
>state ("copout")?
Neither. No, that is not a copout, that is just something that you may never
u
nderstand.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Randy Dane
To: Rick
Sub: Telemate/14400
Date: 31 Jan 94 18:39:00
--------
EID:ec2e 1c3f94e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 1012c889
My friend has a U.S. Robotics 14400 modem. I gave him a copy of Telemate,
but
it doesn't have a setting for 14400 baud on the install menu. Please leave
me
a message about what to do. I should have my own soon.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Derek Clayton
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Evidence
Date: 01 Feb 94 01:08:58
--------
EID:0fc7 1c410900
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4dada9
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef7
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Derek
Cla
yton:
RT> You are gettin carried away DC,
Sorry Arty.
RT> I already sent a reply to you, concerning this argument.
The delay involved with echomail means I didn't get your reply until a couple
of days after I sent the 'duplicate' message that seems to have bothered
you.
RT> Have a good day and may the Lord reveal Himself to YOU!
I thought he did once. As it turns out it was only the aftereffects of
one he
ll of a bowl of chili the night before.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: The phantom Hector claim revisited
Date: 01 Feb 94 09:53:12
--------
EID:0315 1c414ea0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4e26d5
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 24a0d400
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Hector:
In a msg of , Hector Plasmic writes to Tyler A.
Wunde
r:
TA>> The statement "Hector Plasmic does not believe in the
TA>> existence of god" is false?
HP> A particular god, or some sort of as-yet unproposed god-thing?
HP> I don't believe in the existence of any god I've ever seen proposed,
HP> because I haven't seen any evidence for their existence.
So the statement, "Hector Plasmic does not believe in the existence of go
d" is true, given that "god" is equivalent to a god you've seen proposed.
Hmmmm...this is from a long time back, and I don't seem to remember the
c
onfusion.
---
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From: Derek Clayton
To: William Stone
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 01 Feb 94 12:24:40
--------
EID:4726 1c416300
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d4e4d1d
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d4bdeea
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day William:
In a msg of , William Stone writes to Johnny Mckinney:
WS> They know nothing of the giving love of Jesus as he
WS> hanged on the cross,
Perhaps we would if someone had "branged" us the evidence.
WS> nor do they understand the deep peace and satisfaction
WS> from the substitution of faith for their so-called "scientific proof".
Thinking can be a strain.
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
when
WS> we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them and their
WS> abominations. May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in
pain
as
WS> the burning fires of hell consume their flesh. I only wish I could be
the
re
WS> to light the oven, to be honest.
God bless you too.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: God Strikes L.A.
Date: 01 Feb 94 10:54:50
--------
EID:64df 1c4156c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4e3549
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3a7eeb14
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Martin:
In a msg of , Martin Goldberg writes to David
Rice:
MG> Sorry....hope you are OK in spirit and that Fred's family got away OK.
MG
>
MG> I'm sure that I speak for the rest of us here that if there is anything
M
G>
MG> that we can do, let us know.
What? An offer of kindness from an atheist? Jesse'll have a hard time
b
elieving you're not making this up, and that it's not just the Christian-few
r
unning around trying to put L.A. back together again.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Rob Chamberland
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:16:10
--------
EID:6997 1c417a00
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4e73e0
REPLY: 1:247/133 0a8b42de
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Rob:
In a msg of , Rob Chamberland writes to Rick Vanderz
waag:
RC> The Catholic position would be
RC> that if A) Jesus is God
I, for one, won't just simply "give" you this one.
RC> , and B) Jesus began the Church
Nor this one. Paul, yes. Jesus? Not to my knowledge.
RC> , then C) necessarily
RC> the Church is the Living Word of God.
I might as well say, that if leprechauns exist, and if leprechauns keep
t
heir pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, then necessarily there are
pots o
f gold at the end of the rainbow. A conclusion based on unfounded premises
is
not a sound conclusion.
RC> Thhe Church as the Living Word of
RC> God exists in the present moment, it is evident for all to see, therefore
RC> we may conclude that D) God exists.
Not at all. You are abducting the observation of the Roman Catholic chur
ch as evidence of the truth of its claims. I could equally observe the
Mormon
s as evidence of the truth of their claims, or the Jehovah's Witnesses as
the
truth of their claims.
Those who feel that the mere existence of a religious movement must demon
strate its veracity are usually short on imagination and too long on wishful
t
hinking. Stacking the deck would be another way of expressing this, I believe
.
RC> Lindbergh. So, this would be one more thing to refute before you go
on to
RC> your agnostic postition.... Sorry for the intrusion.
The biggest problem with Rick's position is that he feels that the non-fa
lsifiable status of theistic claims grants them some measure of validity,
alth
ough in a "speaking out the side of his mouth" manner (i.e. "I neither believe
nor disbelieve" metaphysical clap-trap) -- he calls what most others on
this
forum call foolishness, agnosticism.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Passages
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:31:52
--------
EID:dbee 1c417be0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4e76ed
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d3e902d
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Jesse:
In a msg of , Jesse C. Jones writes to All:
JCJ> While attending a lovely funeral of a family friend between Christm
as
JCJ> and New Year, I was wondering how you heathens mark this passage.
Jesse, do you *honestly* mean "heathen" in a non-derogatory fashion? I
c
annot help but get the feeling that you use the word as an insult, while
batti
ng your eye-lashes and innocently cooing, "Well, it is what you are, isn't
it?
"
Something akin to referring to homosexual males as cocksuckers and/or but
tfuckers, this seems.
After you answer this question to my satisfaction, I'll consider answerin
g the bits about funerals, weddings, baptisms and such.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: The evidence is in. You're insulting and tedious.
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:53:44
--------
EID:bd0d 1c417ea0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d4e7c84
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d45a165
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Richard:
In a msg of , Richard Thorneycroft writes to Marty
Le
ipzig:
MG>> There is no _evidence_ for god's existance.
RT>> If you mean there is no witness, sign, indication, ground for belief,
RT>> testimony, attestation or corroboration then your statement is
RT>> obviously in error!
Richard, I feel somewhat responsible for you as what you spout comes from
my neck of the woods. Someone adamantly insisting that reality is a numbers
game is certainly something we haven't had to face before -- most likely
becau
se most fundies realize how stupid the point is, once shown, and shamefully
sl
ink away from making the point again. You are, for some reason, different.
RT>> I say He exists. There are many thousands of testimonies to
RT>> corroborate this witness, certainly enough to establish a _ground for
RT>> belief_.
ML>> "If a million people believe a stupid thing, it is still a
ML>> stupid thing." - P. Opus.
RT> If tens of millions of people testify to having had a similar, life
RT> changing spiritual experience, over a time period of 1900+ years.
This works as well (better, actually) against your religion than for it.
Hinduism has been around longer than Christianity. In fact, of the major
reli
gions (population-wise), the only one newer than Christianity is Islam.
If tens of millions of people DO NOT testify to having your life changing
spiritual experience, is that evidence against it as well?
RT> By
RT> definition this IS evidence.
This is only evidence of what people claim, evidence of indoctrination,
a
nd evidence of what people believe -- hardly evidence of the truth of what
the
y claim, unless you're of the opinion that what people claim is reliably
and n
ecessarily so.
Try again.
---
* Origin: Skepticism has no choir. (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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From: mick howland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 02 Feb 94 01:47:04
--------
EID:6eb0 1c420de0
MSGID: 3:690/660@fidonet 3b2cb476
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0e15000c
Fredric Rice at 1:102/890@FidoNet once typed to Dan Tosto:
dt> And of course, the biggest enemy of Christianity is
dt> questions.. Questions destroy faith.
FR> BINGO! We have a winner. Everyone turn in your cards.
+----+----+----+----+----+
| xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
|----|----|----|----|----|
| xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
|----|----|----|----|----|
| xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
|----|----|----|----|----|
| xx | xx | xx | xx | 42 |
|----|----|----|----|----|
| xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
+----+----+----+----+----+
Damn! And I was so close.
regards, mick
vege@omen.it.com.au
--- msgedsq 2.0.6b
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From: Tim Epstein
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Judas
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:06:00
--------
EID:b96f 1c4158c0
MSGID: 3:635/526.2 1008fd2d
REPLY: 1:291/16 2d471d5a
> The Bible says that he "burst asunder" in the midst
> of his field. Did he
> have a cliff in the middle of his field? That doesn't
> make very good
> agricultural sense: it's rather hard to get a team of
> horses to plow the
`> clifface.` Besides, the Bible`says that he "fell
`> headlong". If the rope
> had broken, he would have fallen feet first, or at
> least tumbled. Face it:
> it's a Biblical inconsistency.
Very interesting.
I have never before come across any claims that the Bible has inconsistencies.
Has anyone studied the Bible for inconsistancies? Is there a list published
a
t all?
Many thanks,
Tim
--- FMail 0.94
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From: J.J. Hitt
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: GODS AND GODDESSES ARE ALL WET BEHIND THE TAILS
Date: 02 Feb 94 02:40:02
--------
EID:4868 1c421500
FR> The origins of Easter seem to indicate it pretty well. I
FR> have been using "Isis/Jesus" for the last couple of days
FR> to see what comes of it -- someone may provide their
FR> archived information on the origins.
I don't really see the association between Isis and Jesus.
I thought it was Osiris who was murdered and then resurrected.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Proof, aloof on the roof. What a goof! But, not a poof.
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:06:12
--------
EID:08d5 1c4158c0
Fredric Rice, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ML> Next time, try for Freeport. All those damn refineries and
ML> chemical plants are in the way when I try to launch my boat.
dr> Monkey wrench 'em!
FR> Rocket-borne air-burst of 10-penny nails should kill most
FR> boats -- and people inside but hey, they're not of the body.
ml> "Raise shields and the tarpaulin, Mr. Data. Looks like
ml> we got a lunatic front moving in from the east..."
FR> Tut tut. This "lunatic front" is quite warm -- hot, in fact,
FR> and should increase the ambient air pressure nicely.
All but a bunch of hot air....
FR> If only
FR> for a brief instant. Merely an
FR> attempt to rock the boat.
Try granite in large, rough hewn blocks.
FR> Have Commander Data launch all life rafts.
"Sorry, Sir. He fucked the clutch and lunched all the life
boats."
... Error loading GOD.SYS (A)bort or (U)nzip BIGBANG.ZIP.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: The deathcult always rings twice
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:08:54
--------
EID:07ef 1c415900
Fredric Rice, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
FR> something which was observed coming from our very own SpinRon.
ml> [big, gaping Velociraptor-oid hunks of stuff snipped]
FR> I hope the surgery wasn't too painful.
Just a *snip* to the left...
FR> ~*~ HolySmoke: "A drive-by shooting on the information superhighway."
FR> - Marty Leipzig
ml> I was feeling particularly incensed that day and was whiling
ml> away the hours phoning Pat Robertson's Pledge line.
FR> Everyone needs a hobby, yeah. So. How much did you pledge?
Many, many hours of tied up phone lines.
ml> Then I saw on CNN (I have cable TV in my office...the
ml> perks of being Exploration Manager...the bar comes next...)
FR> You have set your sights too low, Marty. Settle for nothing
FR> less than MTV. I mean, you _owe_ it to yourself.
Got that. MTV1, MTV2, VH1, VH2...it's all in the package. I've
recently got hooked on CSPAN...Moscow Morning News.
ml> some Clintonian folderol and OzoneGorey gurglings about the
ml> "information superhighway". Thunderbolts later, I thought
ml> "what a fertile area; the intersection of electronic HolySmokian
ml> communication and the infamous IS."
FR> Certainly new terms and phrases to describe unnatural acts can be
FR> expected; and the so-called "information highway" _is_ unnatural or,
FR> at minimum, 'synthetic.'
One might say, paved with good intentions...
FR>There are a _lot_ of metaphores expected.
ml> As you shall see...
ml> ... HolySmoke: Fundy roadkill on the Information Superhighway.
FR> See?
Toldjaso...
... HolySmoke: Gridlock on the Information Superhighway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: DuPont, straight up or on the rocks?
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:17:41
--------
EID:3977 1c415a20
Fredric Rice, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty Leipzig
ml>> Goat damn. You're the first person I know outside the awl
ml>> bidness that seems to know anything about HE's.
FR> You should not enourage David __too__ greatly.
ml> I made the error of taking him slightly seriously...
FR> Oh please, he knows what he's about. I'm surprised that he admitted
FR> that he has such things in his rather large and, um, diverse library.
You ought to see my library...
FR> He is, as I am, very concerned for what we both percieve to be a very
FR> real environmental problem. It would be difficult to convince either
FR> of us that a problem does not, in fact, exist.
Of course there is a problem. A problem with self-appointed,
overzealous, NeoLudditic lunkheads who want to try and regain
the past by destroying the future. Go ahead, figure out that
one...
Anyways. Yep, there are environmental problems. Lissen up, sonny.
I could show you shit over in Russia that's turn you WHITE!
But, do you really think that there are groups of people who
deliberately go out and wantonly pollute, destroy and maim the
environment just for grins? If so, you've been watching way too
much of that subversive Turner-oid cartoon "Captain Planet". If
that sumbitch ever shows up on one of my locations, he'll be
doing 15-20 in the local hoosegow faster than you could
calculate the Lorenz transformation.
FR> There _have_ been arrests at his house for, er, um, "minor
FR> misunderstandings with the law?" Yeah, that about sums it
FR> up nicely.
ml> Not another "Great Pizza Menu Fiasco"?
FR> I suppose I had better type that one up and come clean.
tap...tap...tap...We're waiting...
FR> Yet, no,
FR> nothing like the hushed-up and embarrassing Fiasco. Hell, I might
FR> even be tempted to name some names. I think, in this instance, his
FR> room-mates (so-to-speak) were responsible and quickly released.
Still waiting...
FR> Then there was "The Computer Room Bombing of 1978" in
FR> Costa Mesa, California, to remember.
ml> What'd he think? Sky Net was about to become sentient?
FR> More like, "What are you doing, Dave?" "Hold this for
FR> me, would you Hal?" "Where are you going, Dave?" "Just behind this
FR> table here for a moment. Just don't drop that."
A little re-programming with an axe?
FR> Actually, it was written up in FidoNews some 10 years ago.
ml> ... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information
ml> Superhighway.
FR> HolySmoke: Arresting fundies for driving under the influence on the
FR> Information Highway.
FR> HolySmoke: Pulling over fundies for impeeding traffic on the
FR> Information Highway.
You're catching on....
... You will live by the side of the road and collect road kills.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: christians are taught to hate (and they admit it)
Date: 01 Feb 94 11:20:21
--------
EID:3a0e 1c415a80
Hector Plasmic, who thought ornithology is for the birds, said to:Marty
Leipzi
g
> MG> Hi,I don't know where you read that 'Christians are taught to hate
> MG> homosexuals'. The Bible says "hate the SIN not the SINNER".
> MG> cya, M.G.
ML> Strange how the key word in both though is "hate".
HP> Yep. Either way, the pertinent information is that "xtians are taught
HP> to hate."
Amazing. They so constantly preach "love" and "peace", yet are
so suffused with intoleracne and hatred.
Patently amazing.
... I'm starting a war for peace.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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From: Larry Sites
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Mythology
Date: 01 Feb 94 00:21:01
--------
EID:10ca 0662b3d0
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4f097c
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
SB> What is the reason for insulting others
SB>beliefs or trying to prove them wrong? What good does it do?
Ask the christians. This is their divine MO.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Larry Sites
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Grace
Date: 01 Feb 94 01:03:52
--------
EID:10ca 0662b3d1
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4f097d
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
LS>Jesus says that he is to be a symbol LIKE Moses' serpent and that
LS>those that
LS>understand the symbology and believe in the teachings it represents
LS>will have life eternal.
SB>It does not say that those who believe in the teachings but rather that
SB>those who believe in him (Jesus) will have eternal life.
Yea, right. And those "no other god" Jews believed IN that brass serpent
too, right? Jesus however does tell us this:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
LS>John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
LS>Son,
LS>that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
LS>everlasting life.
Matt 12:31,2
SB>What is this is saying about speaking against the Son of Man is that
if
SB>person repents they can be forgiven for that sin but no forgiveness can
SB>given for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Since Matt does not make the forgiveness conditional on repentance, you
are
adding your interpertation to what the bible actually says.
As for why one is allowed and th
SB>other not, I have no idea. I have never claimed to have understood
SB>everything God does.
If you admit to a less than complete understanding, how can you ever be
sure
that you really understand the parts that appear to match up with the
interpertation you have been taught?
However, there is still no contradiction between
SB>this and John 3:16.
The contridiction is betweem Matt 12:31,2 and John 3:18 which is also not
conditional on repentance, but I doubt that you will be able to see it.
SB>Another place were Jesus talks about grace is in Luke 23:43 where He
tel
SB>the criminal that they will be in paradise together. Now I doubt that
t
SB>Romans allowed this guy down off his cross so he could do some good deed
SB>to earn his way to Heaven. This guy probally did not even know the mora
SB>truths Jesus had taught. All he knew is he believed who Jesus was and
h
SB>was saved by that faith.
Your interpertation assumes that he was saved because he recogonized Jesus
as god. In fact the actual words show him telling his comrade to lay off
the
innocient "man" Jesus. Perhaps Jesus was recogonizing that because his heart
was in the right place he would go to heaven.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Larry Sites
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Justification By Faith
Date: 01 Feb 94 01:38:52
--------
EID:10ca 0662b3d2
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d4f097e
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
LS>JC>Rom 3:10 "as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous,
LS>JC>Rom 3:23 "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of
LS>God;"
LS>BUNK! Paul is ADDING his personal interpertation and in so doing is
LS>contridicting the clear message of the bible. Not only is Noah noted
LS>as being rightious:
LS>Gen 7:1 (KJV) for thee have I seen righteous before me in this
generation.
SB>What Paul is talking about is that our entire lives can not be righteous
SB>Even Noah sinned when he got drunk and passed out naked in his tent.
You have no basis to classify these things as sins. God had not yet
prohibited them and the episode is merely a reason for explaining the future
of Noah's sons tribes. God clearly identifies Noah as sinless:
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect
in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Here's the defination of the Hebrew word for perfect:
08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}
AV - without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6,
uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3; 91
1) complete, whole, entire, sound
1a) complete, whole, entire
1b) whole, sound, healthful
1c) complete, entire (of time)
1d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
1e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact
This is the same word perfect used to describe god himself:
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are
judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
And here's generations:
01755 dowr {dore} or (shortened) dor {dore}
AV - generation 133, all 18, many 6, misc 10; 167
1) period, generation, habitation, dwelling
1a) period, age, generation (period of time)
1b) generation (those living during a period)
1c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)
1d) dwelling-place, habitation
Paul is twisting the very words of god to fit his own man made theology
of
Jesus' teachings. You seem to have overlooked all the other "righteous man"
verses I posted. Just what in the heck did god put them in for if there
really were none?
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
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From: Larry Brewer
To: Fizgig
Sub: Re: ASSURANCE
Date: 02 Feb 94 10:24:00
--------
EID:bf73 1c425300
MSGID: 1:128/50 2D48E7E0
Fi> I understand, but one side note: The Jewish law had very strict
Fi> rules about how to treat slaves. They had to be treated as people,
Fi> not property, rape was STRICTLY forbidden, and every 50 years all
Fi> slaves were set free. That is a few of the rules. Oh, and the rule
Since Israel didn't have jails... a person was allow to pay off ¨damages
by be
coming employed (a slave) .... that could not last on longer ¨than 7 years.
I
n fact, food, clothing and all his needs must be supplied ¨first, before
his m
aster. It is land that reverted back to the family after ¨50 years. Remember
Judaism is a middle east religion (not a greek western ¨religion like chirsti
anity). It is hard to translate hebrew terms exactly ¨into english. There
ar
e 70 ways to translate the hebrew into english.
Thought you would find this interesting... maybe not ? (grin).
--- QuickBBS 2.76
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From: Steve Rose
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Crustianity
Date: 02 Feb 94 00:39:04
--------
EID:c206 1c4204e0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4efab5
REPLY: 1:387/303 52eac6b8
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
JF>
JF> God loves every individual of every race
Except the ones he left in the oven too long, right?
JF> + Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing -
Without mythical carton babble-heros to worship...jeesoids CAN do nothing.
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Judgment
Date: 02 Feb 94 00:41:05
--------
EID:8741 1c420520
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4efb0c
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d4bae99
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Jesse!
JCJ> evangelical atheists vie with each other to see how cool they can be
by
JCJ> insulting, flaming, and ridiculing people of faith.
Who richly deserve every such compliment afforded them.
JCJ> very sad, my brother, and I think it should make you feel sad, too.
Naturally. Telling 'brothers' what to think and feel...is the religionist
way
.
JCJ> I think we Christians are too eager to be liked by secular people,
I always wonder why? The feeling is not mutual, nor desired. But then
again,
we are not told by others what to like and feel.
JCJ> instead of defending brothers and sisters in Christ when they are
JCJ> being persecuted, we laugh with them.
By your words...humor is very persecuting, I take it then?
JCJ> Sort of like Peter denying Christ three times before the cock crowed.
Not so bad. Crust denied his own cock when he had the chance to father
kids.
--- InterMail 2.26
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From: Steve Rose
To: William Stone
Sub: WHY BROTHER?
Date: 02 Feb 94 00:47:06
--------
EID:a33a 1c4205e0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4ef8cb
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d4bdeea
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
WS> I imagine they will be quite surprised on the day of rapture
WS> when we are caught up in glory and the earth swallows up them
Did you miss the California Quake or something? We are all still here.
WS> May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain
Much as you are forced to do every sunday. Dig deep into that wallet!
WS> I only wish I could be there to light the oven, to be honest.
Bet you are sad you were born fifty years too late. You missed your calling.
--- InterMail 2.26
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Fundies-Waste of Time
Date: 02 Feb 94 00:51:07
--------
EID:61a8 1c420660
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d4ef9d3
REPLY: 1:100/4 86381A65
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Gary!
JM>> "Ignorance is bliss" as the saying goes.
GG>
GG> And a prime example of the reason these myths were invented - as a
GG> tool to keep the masses obediently in their place by the lords of
GG> this world. At least it keeps them productive... ;-)
Yeah. Ordered to keep popping out those babble babies... for gawd and state.
GG> Isn't it amazing the way human beings eagerly pick up the chains
GG> of slavery and put them on?
Some wear them slung around their neck. In gold or silver, for only $29.95.
GG> ... Religious people believe you haven't lived until you die.
Deep in their little hearts...they know they are dead wrong. :)
--- InterMail 2.26
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Coward for Christ
Date: 02 Feb 94 10:54:54
--------
EID:caed 1c4256c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
31 Jan 94, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> Oh, quite to the contrary. They didn't understand something, so they
sq>> ascribed an imaginary character "out there, thataway" to that something
sq>> However, as we know, "I believe" does not equate with "Is", as much
as
sq>> guys like Ron Ballew, Ron Stringfellow, and TV's Jesse want to stomp
sq>> their feet and pull out Latin phrases and drop names.
FR> Oh he's _quite_ correct that ignorant people concoct deities.
FR> Certainly.
Yes, but he didn't say that. I did. He simply said that early man knew
that there were gods out there as justification for his claims. I say that's
bunk.
FR>> Which is Goatshit! I __saw__ Dopefish today.
sq>> He talks to me, in fact.
FR> Suzy! Run for your life!
It's OK...I'm a patriarch. I can do this kind of stuff, you know.
sq>> There really is a family out there who is
sq>> painting Dopefish on the walls of their child's bedroom.
FR> Like I said, I don't doubt it.
I gave the number to id Software to make a phone call. :)
... Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Don Martin
Sub: Adam...
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:31:02
--------
EID:b0e8 1c424be0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
DM> Steve, you are shooting a lot of blanks recently, like the
DM> one quoted in full above. Trying out another OLR? It
DM> isn't working.
New mail tosser. Problem's been fixed (by going back to the old one). :)
... Beware of low-flying butterflies.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Adam...
Date: 02 Feb 94 09:47:18
--------
EID:9b7b 1c424de0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Tyler!
31 Jan 94, dixit Tyler A. Wunder ad Rob Bamford:
RB>> But it also says that your eyes can be open to the Good News of what
Christ
RB>> has done for you, and you can have a regeneration experience
"Spiritual regeneration, world-wide foundation...happy Birthday, Michael
Love..."
TA> Is this anything like regeneration a la Doctor Who?
TA> Personally, I think I liked the show so much because it
TA> presented the ability to change personalities credibly in
TA> a major character.
If this is what Rob's offering, _I'll take it_. I wouldn't mind being able
to live for hundreds of years, simply adopting another form "at death".
:)
Steve [WHO moderator]
... Stupidity is NOT a handicap. PARK ELSEWHERE!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 02 Feb 94 10:55:54
--------
EID:3f46 1c4256e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
31 Jan 94, dixit Richard Thorneycroft ad Styx Allum:
>> I cannot understand why non-believers would even bother to be on
>> this echo to begin with. If I didn't believe in God, why would I
>> want to challenge a believer to prove to me that God really exists.
SA>> You've overlooked the aspect of showing theists how silly and
SA>> unfounded their belief systems are.
SA>> We dissect their beliefs here, to expose the contradictions and
SA>> inconsistencies, paradoxes and hypocrisies, bigotry and hatred,
SA>> and fallacies of false cause... just to name a few aspects of
SA>> Contradictianity, Hypocristianity, and crucifixations.
RT> Let me get this straight, you want to expose my PARADOX, whooo
RT> yaaa! You want to dissect my foolish appearing belief that is
RT> FOUNDED ON TRUTH! Amen, glory to God, praise to the Most High!!
RT> As a rule of thumb, when you use so many big words, check the
RT> dictionary, you might get caught with your pants down.
Is your capture log on? Are you getting this? I think Martin Goldberg
and
I have another member of the Rogue's Gallery here. He's even talking about
"pants down". Hmmmm. Do you notice how he said so very little in so very
few words? I had written a rather lengthy flame/rebuttal to some of the
drivel he aimed in my direction (Obviously, he's never been to the Bible
Belt, and probably not the US either.), but after reading some of his
laughable horseshit today, I scuttled it. This guy just can't be for
real.
... Proverbial excrement strikes oscillating air device.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Walk on water? Better know where the rocks are.
Date: 02 Feb 94 10:05:52
--------
EID:9b23 1c4250a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Styx!
30 Jan 94, dixit Styx Allum ad Suzy Quarrella:
SA> Hubby Steve:
"Hubby?"
>> SQ> I don't do winter. :) [Why do you think I'm here in Texas,
>> SQ> and not in my home state of Michigan? :) ]
SA> Wife Suzy:
>> Because I dragged you down here, that's why. :)
SA> Oooooo... is that another case of
SA> "Hate the sin... love the sinner"? ;-)
We got us a winner here!
... Girlfriend? Yep, a 33 Mhz 486 with 256k cache!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: ASSURANCE
Date: 02 Feb 94 10:14:32
--------
EID:713a 1c4251c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
31 Jan 94, dixit Jerry Faust ad Gary Glunz:
JF> Please, I'm not trying to insult you. But, can you offer
JF> evidence God doesn't exist?
Can you offer evidence that Odin and Thor don't exist? [Honest question.]
... Cats are smarter than dogs: Eight cats won't pull a sled
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Joe Siegler
Sub: Judgment
Date: 02 Feb 94 17:43:38
--------
EID:4766 1c428d60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1B13 BT026
Hwaet, Joe!
1 Feb 94, dixit Joe Siegler ad Jesse C. Jones:
JS> And from what I've seen I would agree; so why do you bother?
JS> I don't normally read this conference, but Steve Quarrella
JS> does. Since we work together, I see a lot of what he reads
JS> from time to time, and I saw your message that I originally
JS> replied to.
Get him with the Black Sabbath quotes, get him with the Black Sabbath
quotes! [Jesse might not remember that you're the guy I mentioned in my
"I am so grateful!" post a short time ago. :) ]
... Nothing wrong here that a bit of plutonium can't fix
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Re: Mormon History
Date: 02 Feb 94 17:24:36
--------
EID:01ec 1c428b00
> Anyone know what the real story is?
DL> Maybe you should take that over to the MORMON or some
DL> other echo dedidated to that subject...
Because that's the last place I could expect an honest, factual answer
from.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Hector doesn't accept what he doesn't like
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:03:00
--------
EID:ca88 1c417060
MSGID: 1:247/133 108fe26a
> Theist Atheist Strong Atheist
>
> Believe <-------> Don't believe <--------> Disbelieve
>
>Believes x is right Doesn't give a rat's rear Believes x is
wrong
There are four classifications (5 with the weak atheist) that are commonly
recognized, everywhere else but here that is. Why don't you wake up to what
actually exists in the real world.
Theist <----------------------------------------> Atheist
| |
Believes | |
| ----------------
| | |
| Weak Strong
|
| Doesn't Disbelieves
| Believe
|
|
Agnostic
Suspends Judgment
Until We Can Determine
Truth Value of Satement
|
|
|
|
|
Disinterested
Those who don't care
either way
Print this one out to catch it all in one glance.....
Atheists and Theists are polar opposites of the same issue. They are both
caught up with (infatuated is more like it) the issue of whether there is
a
god or not. They concern themselves with statements of belief, either pro
or
con, and can be best described as intollerant (both theist and atheist).
Words can't describe how intollerant you are towards everyone who doesn't
agree with you, so in a classification of fundies, your the worst.
Agnostics are not merely a position in between the atheist and theist.
Agnostics believe that such knowledge is beyond the limits of human
subjectivity, knowledge and experience, and hence they suspend their judgment
concerning the existence of God.
Those who can be described as "disinterested" are those who do not confront
the issue at all. For them it is not an issue, so they don't talk about
it.
One of the things that bothers most people about Christians is that they
attempt to "save" you by setting up the Heaven or Hell choice. Believe,
and
you go to heaven. Reject Christ, and you're going to hell. They will do
everything in their power, and go to any length, to convince you that
believing is the better choice. They express a certain amount of intollerance
to anyone who does not accept their classifications.
Now, here we come to "your" problem. According to you, I either believe,
or
don't believe (disbelieve or don't believe), and therefore I am either an
atheist or a theist. Obviously when someone points out that there are more
than just those two possibilities, you express umbrage, and take it upon
yourself to "convince" them that they are wrong, and your categories are
"right". The level of intollerance which you express in regard to this issue
is, in fact, worse than anything that I have ever seen from any fundy. (kinda
makes you worse than a fundy, but we'll just call you a moron)
I do not accept "your" classifications on the grounds that I do not believe
that the knowledge required to determine whether or not god exists is beyond
the limits of human subjectivity. I don't believe that your position is
_any_
more tenable than that of the fundy. My attempts to point this fact out
to
you has been met with nothing but ad hominem remarks and a general dodging
of
the vital issues (such as the message that I left you about Hawking and
so
on...). The first thing that comes up in my mind is "what are you afraid
of?"
Are you that scared that if you no longer have a basis for calling fundies
illogical or irrational that your life will fall apart??? Are you afraid
that
someone is trying to take your "toys" away??? To this end, you have
re-defined terms to your own liking (obviate), contradicted yourself about
which version of the universe you are going to back (beginning with the
Big
Bang, or Steady state model), and generally relied on statements like "oh,
he's drunk" or "oh, he's a philosopher" to present your case. Well, it hasn't
worked, and i've seen through all of these attempts on your part, and sent
them right back to you. Either way, you are looking more like a fundy
everyday now.
>The agnostic wavers (at least so he'll claim) between believing and not
>believing depending on when you ask him.
My position has always been constant.
>We're all waiting for your explanation of how something outside the
>lightcone interacted with something inside the lightcone now,
I've presented it a dozen or so times, but you have failed to respond to
it.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 01 Feb 94 14:39:01
--------
EID:7674 1c4174e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 108fe26b
> Rick, I assume this Buddhist four cornered logic has a good
>explanation as to how something can be both a and not-a? Or how
>there can be three positions in a binary situation? And please,
From the Kaccayanagotta-Sutra:
"Everything exists this, Kaccayana, is one extreme. Everything does not
exist,
this Kaccayana, is the second extreme. Kaccayana, without touching either
ext
reme, the Tathagata teaches you a doctrine by the middle."
Kalaupahana, David, "Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way" SUNY press,
New Jersey: 1986 p. 10
In the Karika's of Nagarjuna, he presents his "Four Cornered Logic" which
atte
mpts to break down all categories of existence. Buddhism is a non-ontical,
non
-metaphysical philosophy which does not attempt to become entangled in metaphy
sical speculations about what we cannot determine, and because this leads
to t
he the positing of the "self" which is the source of all evil. Thus the
"four
Cornered Logic" takes all positions and none at the same time.
From the Karika: (Couplet 18:8)
"Everything is such, not such, both such and not such, and neither such
nor no
t such"
Kalupahana, David "Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way" SUNY, New
Jers
ey, 1986 p. 269
It is the ultimate non-metaphysical position, which avoids all metaphysical
speculations, categories, and problems, and renders them null and void,
includ
ing all questions about the "existence" of god(s).
Fredric Rice, David Rice, Hector Plasmic, Robert Curry and a few others
have a
ll claimed that I am engaging in a metaphysical debate, and yet nothing
is fur
ther from the truth. My position is absolutely the "most" non-metaphysical
pos
ition that you can take. Their branding it as metaphysics only serves to
demon
strate their blatant ignorance of what "metaphysics" is.
This past summer I attempted to point out to them that the entire debate
over
the existence or non-existence of God is a metaphysical issue. Oh, sure
they c
an focus on physics, chemistry, biology, history, anthropology, and psychology
to make their points, but it is still a metaphysical problem. (look in any
me
taphysics text since Aristotle's Metaphysics, and you will find arguments
eith
er for or against the existence of god.) Religion is about belief, metaphysics
is about existence. My position is non-metaphysical. to be sure, it is an
exi
stential/ontological position.
I'm just content to let them bang their heads against the wall for a little
while until one of them clues in. (Robert Curry may have, because he has
dropp
ed the entire issue)
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 01 Feb 94 15:44:02
--------
EID:ae7a 1c417d80
MSGID: 1:247/133 108fe26c
>There are no other instances in which the universe was created, Rick.
>Is that taxing your sodden brain to understand? ROFL!
There are instances where smaller atoms can be developed into larger atoms.
Th
is occurs on a smaller scale than the univere, but the analogy is the same.
Wh
at am I refering to? The Fusion reaction in a Hydrogen Bomb.
A Hydrogen bomb is basically a core of lithium hydride or deuteride, surrounde
d by several fission bombs. The fission bombs are detonated by exploding
speci
ally shaped TNT charges in each fission bomb in such a way that U-235 or
Pu-23
9 wedges are driven into the center of each bomb to form a critical mass
of ur
anium. In a micro second the temperature rises to one million degrees and
the
following fusion reactions occur in the core:
1 1 2 0 0
H + H -------> H + e + nu
1 1 1 1 0
2 2 1 3
H + H ------> H + H
1 1 1 1
2 2 3 1
H + H -------> He + n
1 1 2 0
1H1 Proton or Protium (in Lithuim Hydride)
2H1 Deuteron or deuterium
0e1 positively charged electron
0nu0 Neutrino with a clockwise spin about its direction of motion.
3H1 Radioactive Tritium (half life 12.4 years)
3He2 Isotope of Helium whose natural abundance is 10(-5)
The current estimates of the temperature of the singularity of the Big Bang
po
int out that it is infinitely high, and according to Steven Weinburg, we
can o
nly begin discussing it when the temperature falls to 100,000 million degrees
Kelvin. That would indicate that the Big Bang is "like" a huge Hydrogen
fusion
reaction, whose effect was the formation of the universe. There is no proble
m with a causal connection in the fusion reaction of a hydrogen bomb, so
what
makes you think that the Big Bang could be any different?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Pluralism
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:50:00
--------
EID:1087 0475c640
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4f8e8d
-=> Quoting Joshua Lee to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JL> One thing I have been impressed with is the social responsibility your
JL> denomination has exhibited in regards to issues dealing with various
JL> forms of discrimination and prejudice. :-)
JL> I think Reinhold Neihbur was one who often said it that way, right?
JL> I'm glad to see it specifically affirmed by a denomination.
And Niebuhr was also a minister in the United Church of Christ --
supporter of the Underground Railroad, first denomination to ordain women,
and
first denomination to ordain gays and lesbians.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Creation & chaos
Date: 01 Feb 94 20:56:01
--------
EID:1087 0475c641
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4f8e8e
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Larry Sites <=-
MB> It wasn't chaos prior to the creation anyway. There is a helluva
MB> difference between a VOID and chaos, and Genesis 1 says it was a
MB> void.
Both the Oxford Annotation, which Musslewhite vouches for, and the newer
Harper-Collins Study Bible, note that the "formless void" of verse 2 is
""formlessness and normlessness," the primordial chaos." This draws on
Babylonian creation myths, as reflected in more detail in Isa 40:12, Ps
33:6-7
,
and Job 38:8-11.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: All
Sub: A blessing
Date: 02 Feb 94 05:30:02
--------
EID:1087 0475c642
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d4f8e8f
Psa 52:1-5 "Why do you boast, O mighty one, of mischief done
against the godly? All day long you are plotting destruction. Your
tongue is like a sharp razor, you worker of treachery. You love evil
more than good, and lying more than speaking the truth. Selah. You
love all words that devour, O deceitful tongue. {5} But God will
break you down forever; he will snatch and tear you from your tent;
he will uproot you from the land of the living. Selah."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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From: Gary Glunz
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: Christian Antisemitis
Date: 01 Feb 94 03:35:00
--------
EID:1a7c 1c411c60
MSGID: 1:100/4 863C58D8
JH> There's a tie between Jack (stupid little comics for Jesus) Chick
JH> and the 'Christian Identity Movement' (Klansmen for Khrist)?
Ohhhh shit - I remember them things.
BTW, have you ever seen the insert in the Dead Kennedy's album
entitled "Fresh Fruits for Rotting Vegetables"?
HAW HAW
... *Origin: "You go to HELL, Charlie Connors!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Styx Allum
Sub: speaking of bigots,
Date: 03 Feb 94 19:34:04
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11133caa
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 0f0c896b
PID: FM 2.02
tn> The Qur'an tells us that God made us into different nations and
tn> tribes so that we might know each other, not hate each other.
sa> I fail to see the validity in what your Qur'an is apparently trying
sa> to teach about tribal differences contributing toward knowing each
sa> other. Separating cultures into separate tribes moves them apart;
sa> rather than bring them together.
And history paints a very different picture than Tony would like to see
-- or
to be seen, perhaps. His religion was created 700 years after the formation
o
f Paulinity inaccuratly called 'Christanity.' Its first move? Remove
"the p
romised land" from the infidels by cutting open children, raping those who
cau
ght their eye -- using the justification of their 'monotheistic' deities.
In fact, it wasn't until 58 or so years later that Christians launched _their_
first Holy Crusade to remove the infidels from "the promised lands" where
nob
ility could construct their own fiefdoms. That was in 1088 or 1089. Tony
can
boast that his club was the first "monotheistic" death cult to launch inhuman
tyrannies upon humanity a full generation before Christianity.
Its second move 300 years later? Attempt the extermination of Israel and
pick
over the bones of the Jews that Christians left behind. Only Israel, having
b
een driven to the winds, been hunted and exterminated where ever they landed,
had united and this time they held the swords and Tony's fellow club members
f
ound that exterminating the infidels wasn't ever going to be quite as much
fun
as it used to be.
-=-
Tony, your words are laughable in light of the history, just as any Christians
words are laughable for the same reasons. Actions give lie to the words.
~*~ I deleted the bible because I needed the room
for all of my Satanic literature - David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 03 Feb 94 19:42:07
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11133cab
PID: FM 2.02
jm> I totally agree with you, brother. As Jesus told his discipiles when
jm> they preach the good news and they reject it for them to knock the
jm> dust off their shoes as they leave.
Also known as "running from the light of truth." And it's also known as
"conc
octing an excuse to salvage an unworkable belief."
jm> My shoes are dusted.
Well we've yet to see any Christians remain in this forum for very long.
~*~ If you get all bent out of shape reading this, I DARE YOU TO
PROVE ME WRONG!!!! Otherwise fuck off - Rick Vanderzwaag
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 03 Feb 94 19:45:22
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11133cac
PID: FM 2.02
jm> My wife and I prey for you and all peoples of the earth who
jm> have not found the peace that comes with knowing Christ.
And what is this 'peace?' History tells us that it is a sword through the
bel
ly or a bullet through the head. Christianity is nothing if it isn't evil
in
the acts that it has done in the past and continues to do.
And fix your Christian-education-motivated spelling, for Christ's sake,
Johnny
. If you can't learn rational thought, at least try to learn which form
of "p
ray" or "prey" to use, okay?
~*~ Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of us.
- Patrick Humphrey
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 03 Feb 94 19:50:01
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11133cad
PID: FM 2.02
GG> +Origin: Sack O' Shit Network: Lying for Jeezus!
DC> +Origin: Shakespeare Network: Making up stories for Jeezus!
DS> +Origin: Shitting Network: Moving Bowels for Cheeses!
DC> +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
DS> +Origin: SCANDAL Network: Stealing money for Heyseuss!
ML> +Origin: PSEUDOSCIENCE Network: Lies and fabrications for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: SHOTGUN Network: Shooting Doctors in the back for the
DS> Almighty Lard
ML> +Origin: SINGLE SYNAPSE NETWORK: Stupidity and sanctimony for
ML> Heyzeus!
DS> +Origin: Sissy Britches: Cowards for Crust.
ML> +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
DS> +Origin: STIFLING NETWORK: Taking over the World for His Piety.
ML> +Origin: STUFFING NETWORK: Turkeys for Jezuz!
DS> +Origin: SECOND LAW OF THERMO-DYNAMICS: Changing the Laws of the
DS> Universe for Stupidity.
ML> +Origin: SCOTCH NETWORK: Humic acid and loch water for Hayzeus!
DS> +Origin: Social Theocracy: Removing your Rights for Jaaayyyssuuss.
ml> +Origin: SYMBIONT NETWORK: Leeches and Hangers-on for Kryst.
+Origin: SOAP-OPERA, NETWORK! YOU _WILL_ SING AND DANCE FOR JESUS!
~*~ And as you can see, he's simply not up to badgering escapees
while his severed head is sitting on a plate besides him. - Fred Rice
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Larry Sites
Sub: Crusades, et all
Date: 04 Feb 94 07:11:37
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2e4
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d4bb5b0
PID: FM 2.02
ls> Christian Europe then vowed to win the Holy Land from the Turk
ls> "infidels." Pope Urban II declared in 1095, "God wills it. Christ
ls> Himself will be your leader when you fight for Jerusalem."
My notes penned from a Dutch work titled, of course, "The Crusades," have
the
date for the First Crusade as 1088 or 1089. The Dutch researcher may not
have
known that Octavian ruled for four years before his names change -- something
interesting might be behind the different dates. Probably my Dutch.
ls> In summary, it was Pope Urban, head of the christian church, that "lead"
ls> the 1st crusade, not Godfrey of Lorraine of the house of Bologne aka
de
ls> Bouillon, who merely was in the right place when Jerusalem fell.
He will tell you that Catholics are not Christians, is my first guess.
~*~ We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already
told us what happened. Why do we need further proof. - Derek Williams
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Christian Coalition is groaning...
Date: 04 Feb 94 07:41:36
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2e5
REPLY: 1:202/1111@fido 2d4c4909
PID: FM 2.02
rb>> "I pledge alligence to the flag, of the United States of
rb>> America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation
rb>> UNDER GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all."
rb>> -- This is something to fight for!!!
FR> Read the original pledge, Rob, prior to 1950, and you'll notice that
you
FR> have been lied to badly. You will notice that the pledge never had
the
FR> phrase "one nation under god" in it.
rb> It is typical that you would find something to rag on rather than stay
rb> on topic and acknowledge that I support your right to believe what you
rb> wish, as appose to the person whom I wrote that to.
"Something to rag on." You are the occultist who capitalized the words
"UNDER
GOD" as you can plainly see in your quoted phrase above. The fact that
you c
hose to capitalize it indicates that you intended to make it your primary
bone
of contention. The fact that you chose to capitalize a sentence which is
not
even in the pledge is entirely the point, Rob.
rb> No, you couldn't possibly take the time to
rb> be supportive of something positive
The American pledge to its flag is nothing positive. It is entirely negative
for its demand of piety towards the symbol of nationalism. And, as most
of us
saw in Nazi Germany, nationalism can be quite negative indeed.
When you are older you'll find that the American pledge says nothing worth
fig
hting for. It says nothing worth killing for. When you are olding you
will l
earn that the Constitution of the United States is what holds your security,
n
ot advertizements that are the results of school contests.
rb> you would rather continue to bitch about everything
rb> and anything that threatens you.
You may wish to consider taking your pill, Rob.
rb> You say that I need to relax and take a pill.
Anyone who thinks that the mythological boat described in the "Noah" story
act
ually exists and that there are photographs of it has to have something
wrong
with his or her ability to think critically.
Also, anyone who thinks that "The Force" in the "Star Wars" movies actually
ex
ists has got to have something _very_ wrong with his ability to discern
realit
y from fiction.
Anyone who thinks that "tounges" is anything but babble needs to seriously
tak
e a look at what he or she has been programmed to believe.
rb> I suggest you do the same, for, if you did, you
rb> could have felt comfortable staying on topic and
rb> not going off on a tangent just to get a kick.
A good suggestion. Vitamin C should do fine for now.
Now as for topic... Why did you capitalize a phrase that isn't even in
the Am
erican pledge if it isn't the topic you wished to underscore?
rb> As for the statement "one nation under God", since it wasn't even the
rb> issue at hand, but rather just something I felt led to 'highlight',
I
rb> shouldn't give you any response, but your high and mighty attitude and
rb> self assurance is lacking in poise and tact.
From your attitude I would guess that you had no idea that the phrase isn't
in
the American pledge and that you feel rather embarrassed about adding it
sinc
e you've been programmed to.
That's entirely understandable.
rb> For your assuption that I have no knowledge of the historical
rb> version of the above, or couldn't possibly admit it if I did
rb> is a bunch of propagandic redoric that you are so good at spewing.
And yet you didn't know.
rb> I quoted the version I like, and that I figured
rb> most would know. Live with that!
Why don't you just start adding any phrase that you like? Why did you stop
wi
th just the one? Wouldn't you like to see something added about one of
the Ch
ristian deities? Since you decided to use a version which supports your
agend
a and occult beliefs, why didn't you use a version which states "UNDER JESUS?"
rb> And in closing, I repeat, "and Liberty and Justice for all".
rb> That goes for you as well as me!
And yet it doesn't 'go' for Native Americans nor towards hispanics and 'blacks
,' does it? It doesn't go for Satanists, Wiccans, nor Pagans entirely,
either
, does it?
rb> So start respecting others RIGHT to belive what they wish
If you are going to start twisting the American pledge, I am going to point
ou
t your lies where they are typed. If you then choose to start twisting
the Co
nstitution of the United States, you can also expect me to point out your
lies
.
Certainly you have the right to spout off whatever your masters have programme
d into you and I will agree that you have that right. Yet don't bleat
about violating your rights when I coorrect your lies, Rob.
rb> and at least have the guts to support my supporting your rights!
Bizzare. You can't "support" my rights, son. You can only follow the Constit
utional and Civil laws of the United States. If you break those laws, you
are
punished for doing so. No 'support' required.
rb> Religious Liberty is a principle that is fundamental to this nation.
Only after capitalism. If it behooves the State to remove an innocent religio
n -- such as, oh, let's say the Branch Dividians -- then the State will
remove
that right to religious liberty.
rb> Take Care!
Get a grip, son. Seek medical assistance and please, whatever else you
do, do
n't breed.
~*~ Prepare to die, Earth skum! - Spaced Invaders
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Fizgig
Sub: ATHIESTS...WHY BOTHER
Date: 04 Feb 94 07:44:59
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2e6
PID: FM 2.02
f> I beg your pardon, have I stumbled into the Flame area?
Typically those who hold deity-oriented beliefs and make statements which
incl
ude the unaffected are flamed greatly in this forum. Those who hold deity-ori
ented beliefs and somehow manages to refrain from including everyone else
mana
ge to also acquire respect.
Welkom ta HolySmoken
~*~ As for the road map, those roads are paved with the bodies of more
than one person who died not for your religion, but because of it.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tim Epstein
Sub: Life, Death and Religion.
Date: 04 Feb 94 07:50:10
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2e7
REPLY: 3:635/526.2 0f931724
PID: FM 2.02
te> he explained that he felt the kid was lucky because he
te> had gone to heaven, whilst my friend was still here putting
te> up with life. He further admitted that he was actually
te> envious that the kid had gone to heaven so early.
Sick and evil is the mind-set of the Born Against Christian.
te> He admitted that if he had thought the kid was going to die, he
te> wouldn't have tried to resussitate him! He talked about "God's will",
te> and not wanting to blow the kid's chance of going to heaven etc.
Horrid.
~*~ The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery
are greased by caffeine. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Strickland
Sub: Paluxy Revisited...
Date: 04 Feb 94 07:52:28
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2e8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d4e951e
PID: FM 2.02
ds>> ... Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day."
FR> Hey! That one is mine from two years ago! I had forgotten
it.
ds> Well 'tis mine now!
"Then began a long and bloody crusade to win back the Holy Tag Line from
the i
nfidels who had occupied it for so long..." }:-}
~*~ "Obviously your ignorance of western civilization is lacking."
-- Charlie J. Ray
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Christianity is evil by its own standards
Date: 04 Feb 94 08:21:08
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1186d2ea
REPLY: 1:387/303 52ed51ec
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Jerry!
And Hail Star Goat! }:-}
FR> My first guess would be that you have never read the
FR> classical Christian mythologies, Jerry. The one thing that
FR> believers in your deities do not do is love the not-believer
Some how you decided to change the subject in mid-post. Let's take a look,
ho
wever, at what it is, exactly, you are presenting:
jf> The Salvation Army provides aid to thousands of poor
jf> and homeless, regardless of religious affiliation.
Which is indicitive of people being people by people helping people, not
love
of the not-believer. Many more not-Christians perform "good works" than
do
Christians (if only because Christianity is a minority set of ideologies)
and
they do so out of the same motivations; specifically, people _do_ help people.
Attributing it to "love" or the misnomer/oxymoron "Christian love" is both
in
correct and highly inaccurate.
Neither does it invalidate the classical Christian mythologies, the history
of
Christianity, nor my point.
jf> The Methodist Student Movement at my current college (University of
jf> Texas at San Antonio) is co-sponsoring a seminar entitled "Beyond
jf> Racism".
Though some might find it insulting, I will suggest that this is mere damage
c
ontrol. In any event, once again, you have hit upon a phenomena which is
indi
citive of people helping people; not out of "love" but out of tolerance
and, e
ven more so, distaste at racists and bigots.
If anything, racial hatred and intolerance is the venue of Christanity in
the
United States whereas the atheists, Pagans and Wiccans hold no such ideologies
. There is no justification for intolerance which not-Christians can hold
whe
reas the classical Christian mythologies are all too often used as same
justif
ication. (The atheist who murders a doctor, for instance, will not hold
up a
book on Newtonian physics and claim that it grants him or her the right
to mur
der.)
David Duke and Pat Robertson are indicitive of what Christianity has stood
for
and continues to stand for. They are the extreem outward indications of
a set
of ideologies which have stunk from the very beginning; a set of ideologies,
I will add, which is not merely bath water but also the baby.
jf> German theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer was hanged
jf> for speaking out against Adolf Hitler.
Adolf Hitler was a wonderful example of Christianity; specifically, he used
hi
s deeply-held beliefs in the Christian deities for justification of his
genoci
de. (If you would like for me to post one of his best Christian speaches,
ple
ase ask. I have it right here.)
Many Bishops were dragged before the Nazi court and ordered to silence.
Many
refused and were killed -- not out of "love" but because they recognized
that
shipping the mentally insane off to the ovens was quite simply not right.
Mos
t
realized that they could not stop what was coming and kept their mouths
shut.
By your reasoning, they did so out of hatred; that's simply not true. They
di
d so out of self-preservation and the love of their families and themselves.
jf> These are a few examples of Christian love...
Incorrect. Those are a few examples of people helping people. Since people
b
erift of deity-oriented superstitions perform the same activities and even
to
greater degree than the Christian, your assertion is entirely false.
And you have done nothing to address the genocide depicted in the mythologies
nor the unholy tyrannies inflicted upon humanty by Christians in the past
-- w
hich was the subject before you decided it needed to be changed somewhat.
FR> Isis/Jesus/spirit/Satan/Mary et al.
jf> Why are Satan and Mary considered dieties? The Bible never ascribes
jf> ĻŌg·btæs»www»m§»|s»vI~'RwvI»IwvIo³c²Śū,,
jf> "Ņvig›«bæŖr§·RŁwærŪ¹´2'vw?k*P~sūv
jf> ›»-6"—ė¹]„o³@ėV›żv/Ģ¼R,ž¼ŗv¦ż/$'%rg3f³7ż³v–ßi…qk#ux(•ĻŠ
Put some delays into your ASCII upload end-of-line and character pacing
as tha
t might be your problem -- well, your problem with uploads, at least, of
messa
ges.
To answer your question, men concocted the deities to explain-away that
which
they couldn't understand or to contrive an excuse to control the populace.
The
King or Queen ruled through "devine right." That your 'Satan' and 'Mary'
deities are part of the Christian pantheon isn't of my doing as I did not
create the religion.
~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jerry Faust
Sub: Continuing a message...
Date: 04 Feb 94 09:54:02
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1189940e
REPLY: 1:387/303 52ed572a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> When you try to include the better educated, critically-thinking
FR> into your indoctrination-motivated beliefs, you open yourself up
FR> to a great deal of, shall we say, "just deserts?" rather than if
FR> you had merely expressed your beliefs and managed to exclude those
FR> who manage to remain free.
jf> Actually, I'm not interested in indoctrination.
Perhaps I was somewhat ambiguious in my statement. We were talking about
_you
r_ indoctrination into the Christian belief system, not what your intentions
w
ere or are.
jf> I am not offended, angry, etc. if people disagree with my views.
That's good. And would you be were they to include you into their deity-orien
ted beliefs? Would you be slightly miffed were you to find yourself included
into Curryian beliefs by believers proclaiming that you have sinned greatly
an
d will be punished forever because you had the audacity to use pepper upon
you
r food? Such a religion _does_ exist and they believe that anyone who uses
pe
pper has sinned against their goddess. More:
Would you be miffed were you to continually find Currians at your door exclaim
ing that you needed to be 'saved' for your sinning? Would you be miffed
if yo
u found that you couldn't buy pepper on certain days of the week because
of th
e irrational superstition-motivated beliefs of Currians?
To not-Christians, Christianity is equal with the audacity and sheer irrationa
l stupidity of those who would include the unaffected in their beliefs and
dic
tate demands upon others. All too often Christian churches have set themselve
s up, took out a map and declaired that all within the span of their hands
'be
longs' to their religion; the letters of notification of the not-believers
new
ly-acquired pious status are then sent.
Though most Christian churches do not do this, every Christian I have yet
to m
eet has held the belief that _everyone_ was part of their superstitious
belief
s; that _everyone_ was a 'sinner' and "needed" to be 'saved.'
That is a disgusting ideology. It is deadly. It is malignant with evil.
jf> I enjoy discussion in this echo; I'm not here to point a finger at anyone.
You should. We have had a Branch Winterian post in this forum his delight
at
the prospects of the unaffected "burning forever" and expressed gleefully
that
he would "like to light the oven."
The better educated, critically-thinking among us will of course point at
the
Christian and denounce him as a clueless, hateful follower of a deadly ideolog
y yet the Christian __must__ point their fingers and denounce this as the
spou
ter of hatred will only ignore the not-believer using the justification
that t
hey are "worshipping 'Satan.'"
So if you're not here to point the finger at anyone, what good are you?
if yo
u are unwilling to clean up your own Christian trash, why are you here?
jf> I'm not a fundamentalist.
Allow me to be the judge of that. I'm allowed to as I'm an atheist
a
nd n no way connected with your deity-oriented superstitious beliefs.
jf> I consider myself an open-minded individual;
jf> I don't want to exclude anyone.
That is the very bone of contention; you must exclude everyone from your
belie
fs else you are insulting in your outrageous audacity. If you are capable
of
excluding the not-Christian in your beliefs about 'sin,' 'hell,' 'heaven,'
et
al. then you're one step up on the moral high ground.
If, however, you believe that _everyone_ 'sins,' or that 'sinners' are going
t
o go to your 'hell' if they're not 'saved,' then you are no better than
a Bran
ch Winterian and certainly not someone I would willingly engage in discourse
w
ith.
jf> Stay in touch, we'll talk some more.
What's your educational background, Jerry? No credentials, please,
a
s I don't want to know and -- more to the point -- I, myself, hold no discerna
ble credentials. I'm just curious whether you have a background or a knowled
ge in various sciences and/or schools of thought.
Evolution? What is it to you?
~*~ I doubt if you will be so flippant and cocky when you are trembling
at
the foot of God on judgement day, Marilyn. You *will* be judged
whether you like it or not. - Christian Soldier, HolySmoke forum.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 04 Feb 94 10:59:15
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118af5d3
REPLY: 1:2617/117 1090881c
PID: FM 2.02
fr> I don't know how to respond to utter secular nonsense, Dan.
ds> I'm not suprised.
Yes, my experience has almost entirely been with theistic nonsense.
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: Hey! You are not of the body! Law Givers! Law Givers! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence and Plausability
Date: 04 Feb 94 11:03:39
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118af5d4
PID: FM 2.02
fr> I'm not entirely certain whether David is trying to be funny or
fr> insulting or whether he is just offering a statement of fact, Mike.
He
fr> merely mentioned (correctly, in my opinion) that "sound reasoning" is
fr> not part of the methodology employed by Christians when pertaining to
fr> deity beliefs -- which you wished to discuss.
What follows is a lengthy, disjointed sequence of comments which are so
badly
formatted that I really don't wish to read through it, Mike. Since it was
pos
ted with something of a lazy effort, I do not feel the need to expend the
effo
rt required to sort through it.
So allow me to return the whole glut for proper formatting and <-gasp->
pause
for breath, okay? If you reformat it so that it is readable, return it
and I'
ll give her a go.
> I thank you for your response. As I've said,I'm a Christian in my faith,
> and in my philosophy I'm an objectivist. My reasons for believing in God
> rest upon many pillars. I think that one of the best places to begin may
> be the subject of origins. By origins I mean the beginning of the
> universe. There isn't any theory I've read from anyone that explains in
> reasonable terms the means by which the universe came into being. Most
> theories center upon either what is called the "Big Bang", for lack of
a
> better term, or the oscillating universe, with forms and variations of
> both. I believe that the evidence supports the Big Bang theories. Within
> this central theory there are sub-theories, however at this time I don't
> see the necessity of going into these. Now how does the Big Bang theory
> lend credence to the existence of God? Please follow. The universe, if
> it began with the Big Bang, was at one time a singularity of sorts. It
> contained gravity exceeding by forces immeasurable anything even
> stipulated by the smallest of Black Holes. With what is known about
> Black Holes, nothing except perhaps minor QM radiation may escape it.
> The gravitational pull exceeds the escape velocity of even light. Now
at
> a point in time, a very precise and important point in time, this
> singularity exploded,(exploded may be imprecise)and in a velocity that
> is universally constant, expanded. The energy required to escape the
> tremendous gravitational forces isn't there under any theory put forth
> that I've seen. From some theories I read, the estimated energy density
> at 10-43 second was 10 to the 119 per cubic centimeter, while the
> estimated gravity was over 10 to the 26 of earth. The equation doesn't
> allow for the universe as we see it today.
~*~ They sat down in the kitchen, where the morons started pulling out
bibles, books, pamphlets, and other assorted implements of destruction.
- Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mike Staab
Sub: Evidence & Plausability 2
Date: 04 Feb 94 11:04:49
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118af5d5
PID: FM 2.02
Here's another lengthy one.
If you need a blank line, hit a space bar then enter and your text editor
will
allow the blank line.
> Even if these figures are very imprecise, nothing observed anywhere
> could provide the energy necessary to overcome such gravitational
> forces. Now I stated that the point in time of the explosion was very
> important; here is why. If the Big Bang delayed even by a factor of 10
> -57 from when it did explode, it would have collapsed into a mass
> incapable for anything natural to dissolve it. Now we could say that
> this still doesn't mean that there is a God, however I believe that the
> evidence shows that only a God could have set into motion what we see
> today,in the manner in which life could develope. Now lets consider the
> eternal universe theory. Entropy doesn't allow for matter to be eternal.
> If you state that the universe is an open system, where is the evidence?
> The evidence so far shows that we are in a closed system universe. If
we
> are in a closed universe, then entropy and the laws of conservation
> demand that in time the universe dies. I state that under all observable
> evidence, not conjecture, we are in a closed universe. A closed
> universe requires a beginning. From this we arrive at God as the source
> of the beginning. Now, I hope that this suffices as a beginning of
> dialogue, or a termination of discussion due to agreement. I hope for
> the former and doubt the latter.
~*~ They did not evolve. They were artifically genetically altered.
- Ronald Stringfellow (Ass of god)
---
* Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Avoiding Superstitious Ignorance
Date: 04 Feb 94 11:52:59
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118af5d6
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef5
PID: FM 2.02
#include David Marrow
dm> Why do dedicated christians and other christians who
dm> believe they will go to heaven when they die try to
dm> live for aslong as possible and avoid it?
FR> We have already asked the local believers in the Christian deities to
FR> explain that one. As I recall, most closed their eyes and hit the
FR> next key to avoid having to admit that they hold no strong faith.
rt> When you're filled with the Light of Life, and having such an
rt> interesting time Praising the Lord, why give it up?
George Orwell would be so proud.
The darkness of willful ignorance is comfortable, certainly, and yet those
with the desire to discard their deity beliefs for the light of reason find
themselves just as comfortable without their ignorance -- more so, in fact,
if
the evidence of the daily news is any indication.
Why give up the easy path of religious ignorance when the road to education
an
d intelligence is rough and difficult? Because the rewards of living life
fac
e-on without concocting myths to ease the path are far greater than a life
was
ted in the mistaken belief that there is another to be had.
rt> Maybe that dose of eternal life in us makes
rt> it harder for us to switch locations.
Maybe that the fear of eternal death is unbearable to many. Towards that
end,
they concoct a mental image which they might believe grants them special
disp
ensation from having to die.
rt> I've seen some folks take what I would judge as _too long_ to
rt> die and I've seen some who time their exit to perfection, in grace.
Bizzare, occult beliefs.
rt> Perhaps the painfull emotions we feel at the loss of loved ones,
rt> the ones we are _qualified_ to discuss with the _nasty boys_;
rt> hold us back from presenting our tears to your hard hearted
rt> judgement. We do miss them.
My but you do presume a great deal. My mother has three to six months to
live
due to cancer. Do you see me as unqualified to talk about the fear of death,
son?
~*~ And I can't be holding to what you got when all you got is hurt - U2
---
* Origin: MARSUPIAL, NETWORK! Pouching youths for Jesus! (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: fundamentals
Date: 04 Feb 94 11:59:46
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118bf758
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef8
PID: FM 2.02
rt> Oh! this one goodie goodie. What a JOY! Whooo yaaa! Here we go.
You give Christianity a bad name, Richard. You might think about offering
a r
ational face and disposistion. certainly you are only underscoring what
the b
etter educated dislike about Christianity with your every post.
Don't you realize you are doing the work of your 'Satan' god?
~*~ Ok, please explain the difference between facts and truth - J. Conwell
Facts are what the educated accept as truth.
Truths are what fundies are told to accept as fact. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: fundamentals
Date: 04 Feb 94 12:43:15
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118c28ef
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8ef9
PID: FM 2.02
rt>> The atheists post a four part message attempting to
rt>> explain God's Laws for the operation of His universe.
FR> That's like saying Christians post messages attempting to explain the
FR> mechanics behind fairies abilities to sprinkle dew drops around the
FR> yard.
rt> Exactamungo, what do I know about _fairies_, he he.
Absolutly nothing as they, like your deities, do not exist. Oh: Unless
you ha
ve any evidence which you might like to share with the rest of humanity?
You know, asking for evidence shouldn't be construed as an 'attack.' It
is me
rely asking if you have any evidence whatsoever that your deities are any
more
real than fairies.
FR> Your you deities are not believed in by the better educated,
FR> critically-thinking populace, don't you think it's funny to continue
FR> to project your own irrational, unfounded superstitions upon them?
rt> I had no idea, O Better Educated One, that this
rt> echo reflected such elevated thought!
Certainly this forum can be confusing to people unacustomed to rational
though
t yet you are forfiven. Ignorance is entirely acceptable however willful
igno
rance is not.
rt> Does Your Eminence desire I leave the fairie yard?
Do not attempt to include the better educated in your mental playground.
You
may play where you wish, of course, and with what you wish. When you include
those who are not connected with your occult beliefs in any way, you can
expec
t to be taken to tasks for it -- as you should be.
rt> I thought I was just exchanging scatology in the barn yard.
Not at all. You were including everyone in your superstitious beliefs.
Whatev
er else you wish to spread, please feel free to spread it. Those of us
with a
n education or an eye on what constitutes critical thinking are immune to
the
deadly Christian ideologies -- and those who spread the disease.
rt> We usually do our recruiting among the unwashed masses, ya know!
Among the ignorant, you mean. Reguardless, as I have mentioned, the atheists
you'll find in this forum have taken the innoculant: they have the ability
to
discern fact from fiction. If you wish to acquire converts to the Christian
d
eath cult, you'll need to do so among those who are not savy to the history
of
Christainity, Richard.
FR> What you've found is that physical laws do not require any of your
FR> deities and that the natural processes around you are direct results
FR> of natural, physical laws. Concocting deities to explain that which
FR> you do not understand is, of course, entirely up to you
rt> Well, not entirely up to me. By the way it's what YOU
rt> found not me and if I were you I'd wash my hands of it.
No no. You found that physical laws are not required yet you are in willful
d
enial of the facts, Richard. And you are quite correct in your statement
that
you had no choice whatsoever on the superstitious beliefs you would adopt.
A
ll you did was swallow the domestic insanity due to early indoctrination.
Cer
tainly those who recognize Christianity for what it is and what it does
to oth
erwise rational, thinking individuals can't fault you for what happened
to you
.
FR> yet don't you think that a rational approach to understanding is
FR> of better value than to merely quip "well, my deities did it" and
FR> stop thinking enirely?
rt> Isn't it odd, I find my approach is like the beginning of wisdom.
Adopting a superstitious belief in invisible superfriends is _hardly_ the
act
of a wise man, Richard. It is the act of a fool yet not a fatal act. The
ign
orance which drives the beliefs can be rectified;; you _can_ be saved, Richard
. All you have got to do is _want_ to be saved. There are people in this
for
um who can help you. Just say the word.
rt> You know I don't think anyone can _stop thinking_.
Certainly they can suspend critical though to salvage an otherwise unworkable
belief. And certainly every Christian must when it comes to his or her
belief
in invisible superfriends.
rt>> Like layers of an onion, each discovery leads to more mystery,
rt>> more exceptions and indications that much more remains to be
rt>> discovered.
FR> Yep. The universe and natural, physical laws devoid of any deities
is
FR> a wonderful, exciting avenue of inquiry, isn't it? And isn't it also
FR> a shame that those incapable of attaining the cognative ability to
FR> understand these processes must lump all that they do not know into
FR> unseen superfriends?
rt> Not, if what you are spending the time and money on discovering,
rt> is what our unseen superfriends put there in the first place.
And since these superfriends of yours are non-existant, how do you plan
to sup
port this assertion?
rt> (Superior _cognative ability_, isn't that a bit pompous, even for you?)
Everything you have said has provided evidence that the atheist
h
olds both the higher morality and the intellectual capability over the Christi
an. You have offered no outward display whatsoever to indicate that the
perce
ption you display is false.
rt>> And we of the faith are part of a spiritual union,
FR> Is "spiritual union" what we're calling ignorance these days?
rt> No. We call ignorance, _ignorance_ these days.
George Orwell would be so proud once again.
rt>> will we now be subjected to an insulting and paternalistic
rt>> diatribe from an athiest, explaining the workings of the
rt>> Holy Spirit?
FR> Ghosts are an interesting phenomena. Being psychological
FR> manifestations of internal conflict within the mind of the believer,
FR> ghosts perform and act exactly as the believers preconceptions direct
FR> it to perform and act -- much like believers in aliens from other
FR> planets perform and act according to the preconceptions within the
FR> mind of the believer.
rt> Whooo Yaa, you did it!
Certainly that was my intention. The fundie is nothing without his push-butto
ns out on his sleve for all to press.
rt> (I'm counting to 10, my wife told me I
rt> should try to be less sarcastic.)
What is wrong with my assessment of beliefs in "holy spirits?" Read it
again
and, rather than dangle from this atheists' strings like a puppet in the
wind
(mixing my metaphores for Jesus) tell me where my assessment is inaccurate.
rt>> How can anyone with so much experience be unaware
rt>> that _evidence_ in the form of ever changing _fundamentals_
rt>> and His story can be interpreted in more than one way?
FR> If you have any evidence at all, please share it. If you think that
FR> the mythologies you may or may not believe in are "unchanging," me
FR> thinks the one could do well to mayhaps read them once.
rt> I refer you to the on going debate about evidence, you can latch
rt> on to my reply to Derek Clayton re. too many question marks.
You have yet to provide any valid argument for the existance of evidence
and,
more to the point, you have yet to provide any of the evidence you claim
exists.
You may begin at any time. The disk drives are just all in a platter waiting
with baited breath for the enlightenment (if I may once again mix my metaphore
s for Jesus.)
rt>> Most Christians have always maintained the necessity of the
rt>> presence of the Holy Spirit in converting the individual to
rt>> the faith.
FR> Whereas what we really find is that indoctrination at an early age is
FR> the first requirement. Then inability to look at the history of the
FR> Christian death cult critically is also another requirement. The
FR> inability to reason rationally and critically is another requirement.
FR> Of course one might simply remove most of the brain and acquire the
FR> same result.
rt> After this one FR's head released itself from his
rt> body and bumped against the ceiling. Sorry, but doesn't
rt> all that bombast make you feel light headed?
So what you're saying is that you agree with my assessment that Christianity
h
as resorted to the knife and the sword to get to its posistion that it holds
t
oday? Do you agree with that assessment rather than your claim that all
it ta
kes is the presence of this ghost of yours?
FR> ~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
rt> Thank the Lord for that.
Thank _scientific_method_ for that, son. No need to invoke invisible superfri
ends to take the credit for other peoples hard work.
~*~ ...you have willingly joined the legion of Satans's angels. - Ron Ballew
---
* Origin: Shooting people will not make them love Jesus (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Playing by the rules....
Date: 04 Feb 94 14:02:18
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df271
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efa
PID: FM 2.02
rt> Maybe you have been in the wrong place at the right time
rt> or maybe the right place at the wrong time, are you asking
rt> YHWH to make himself known to you?
FR> Neat. We've seen the Heisenberg Uncertainty Deity played before.
FR> These deities exist until they are looked for at which time they
FR> vanish.
Gee. I'm disappointed that no one commented upon this.
FR> o There has been no 'witness' that you can provide evidence for
FR> to support the irrational belief that there are invisible
FR> superfriends.
rt> Please refer to on going _evidence_ debate. ref is in your other reply.
I have seen you continue to make groundless assertions. Certainly you have
re
fused to present evidence at every turn. It could possibly be due to the
fact
that there is no such evidence.
rt> No offence but your inflated opinion does not establish
rt> sufficient cause to dismiss all evidence as deluded.
Any comment which comes from a fundie is easilly disreguarded as non-insulting
as the source is considered. In any event, you have continually refused
to o
ffer any evidence. How can be examine your evidence and either accept it
or r
eject it if you continue to refuse to present it?
rt> Where WILL we find an unbiased judge? It's not this guy.
Just present your evidence and let's take a look.
FR> ~*~ The word you're groping for is "blasphemy." - Hector Plasmic
rt> I don't normally lack for words, now a shovel, thats another matter.
How about the crisis of faith you're entertaining? Being unable to find
any e
vidence whatsoever for any of the deities you believe in has prompted you
to b
elieve that groundless assertions is some kind of evidence. It is exactly
wha
t creationists do when they find that the facts don't fit their beliefs.
~*~ Ohh! Ohh! Hit me! Beat me! Make me install WINDOWS 3.1!~ ;-)
- Gary Glunz
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Tear a new one.....
Date: 04 Feb 94 14:32:16
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df272
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efb
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Hector is quite correct. If you're talking about the Christian
FR> deities, they couldn't even forsee their own defeat in one of the
FR> myths when the Christian deities tried to wipe people out who had
FR> chariots of iron. One would expect these "all knowing gods" who "see
FR> the future in all detail" would give it a rest when they detect iron
FR> chariots.
rt> Exactamungo, that's why I said it goes beyond scripture.
I suspect that by "scripture" you are refering to the classical Christian
myth
ologies and not a book on Newtonian physics. Reguardless of who has been
pro
gramming you, the mere fact that one or all of your deities was incapable
of d
efeating those individuals who employed a scientific discovery over those
back
ed by your deities who did not should be all the commentary needed to describe
where, exactly, your deities fit into the scheme of things.
FR> Within the imagination only. Mental images concocted reguardless of
FR> reason (or, if I may, lack of reason) exist as mental images. They
FR> are not manifest in any other way -- unless someone would like to be
FR> the first to present some new and exciting evidence.
rt> How about some old and dull?
If you have any, please present it. It is selfish to continually claim
that y
ou have evidence for the existance of your deities while at the same time
keep
ing all of that evidence to yourself.
rt> How about that _ghosts_ crock ya posted me, didn't you imply
rt> ghosts manifest themselves from the imagination?
Ghosts and deities are exactly what you expect them to be. They are called
"a
rtifacts of wishful thinking" by the polite among us. "Ignorance-born"
delusi
ons by those with a touch of the vulgar about them.
When you create a deity in your mind, it is exactly what you wish it to
be. Wh
en you create a ghost, a vampyre, warewolf, or young female sex maidens,
they
are all exactly what you wish them to be.
rt>> afterall you only exist to me as a group of dots on
rt>> a screen and the memory of our encounter will be
rt>> mercifully brief!
FR> Those pixels are not making outrageous claims which are unevidenced
rt> We aren't talking about the same HP then!
You are the one making outrageous, unevidenced assertions not grounded in
evid
ence or even rational thought. Hector Plasmic is calling you on your occult
b
eliefs and has asked politely enough for you to present your evidence as
you s
eem incapable of leaving the better educated out of your delusional wishful
th
inking. (See? We can combine the two as well.)
FR> It is perfectly acceptable to make mundane claims about people and
FR> places and events. When outrageous claims are appended to them --
FR> reguardless of reason -- then otrageous evidence is required.
rt> Bla bla bla, why not just let Hector answer,
rt> I usually reply, you can read it.
Typical Christian response to the light of reason.
rt>> I am seldom fevered but have had moments of
rt>> insight and creative persuit when in the state.
FR> One wonders if a belief in invisible superfriends could
FR> be considered "insight." Certainly it is creative.
rt> Gotcha wondering eh?
I'm wondering what a horror it is to be a Christian. At birth there is
a norm
al, healthy human being that's empty and waiting to be filled with such
wonder
at the joy of living and the existance of the universe to be explored and
exa
mined. There are limitless possibilities awaiting the child.
Then along come the Christian which symbolicaly shits in the baby's brain,
making it into an individual who is too frightened to live life without
superstitious dred; an individual incapable of and unwilling to engage in
crit
ical thought. An individual also who looks at life as a punishment; a life
th
at's a test and not a joy. An individual who looks at the universe with
dulle
d eyes and a dulled brain, not willing to examine and explore the vastness
whi
ch surrounds them, content to bleat "god did it."
The innocent children indoctrinated into a death cult have no defense.
They h
ave their lives stollen from them and many never manage to wrest it back
from
the hateful, ignorant thiefs which have stollen it.
What I wonder, when I read your posts, Richard, is that the crime is allowed.
HP> Tear a new one.
rt> _please & thanks_ such polite, violent anal abuse.
FR> You may be playing the interpretation game again with Hector's words.
FR> It has been noted that people who have to interpret their mythologies
FR> in order to salvage an unworkable belief in deities fall into the
FR> habit of doing so.
FR> There are many places where "the sun don't shine" which could be
FR> stuffed without unfounded and, if I may say so, silly occult
FR> assertions.
rt> You pompous twit and I suppose you will _enlighten_
rt> me as to the true meaning of TEAR A NEW ONE.
Certainly I will make the attempt to enlighten the Christian. You are confusi
ng the phrase, "chew you a new ass hole" with the phrase, "tear a new message.
" The "tag lines" that you see in FidoNet used to be called "tear lines"
and
they indicated where a message ended and where the new message began. When
of
f-line readers started to hit the Public Domain, tear lines were no longer
nee
ded; what evolved are called "tag lines."
Please try not to make the same mistake twice.
FR> Which moon might that be? If you are thinking of the Earth's Moon,
it
FR> is generally capitalized else the specific moon is offered with its
FR> name. Like deities which are not named, there are many moons and
FR> talking about one without being specific is entirely ambiguious.
rt> Stop trying to be so brilliant.
Woops! Too late.
rt> Hector used the word _lunatic_, get it?
And your postings would tend to confirm his conclusions, Richard.
rt> Why don't you just let Hector answer his own mail. I'm not impressed.
What makes you think I'm not Hector? Do you seriously "think" that "Hector
Pl
asmic" is a real name? Can you not see the message inside of that name?
Are y
ou really so very badly programmed by your masters that you are incapable
of e
ven _that_ small discovery?
rt> What is YOUR point? What IS your point? What is your POINT?
Get a grip, son. Ask Ron for a pill.
rt> Don't go away mad, just go away.
Well, there _are_ occult superstitions being asserted. So long as there
are,
I fully intend to be present for their debunking.
~*~ You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners - jonny vee
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Rich playing pot, and faring poorly otherwise.
Date: 04 Feb 94 14:37:56
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df273
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8efd
PID: FM 2.02
HP> Second, a lot of folks believed in Odin and Zeus at one time. I'm
HP> sure they'd have been willing to testify. Do you accept that as
HP> evidence of Odin and Zeus?
rt> A lot have independant corroboration re. life change (that son of a
gun
rt> was lusting after my wife, now I love the bastard, he just gave me the
rt> shirt off his back....an stuff like that there). 1,000,000 testimonies
rt> would take about 60 years to go thru at 10 minutes per. So much to
say
rt> and so little time. I think you know the organization is there to
rt> deliver that many to an independant adjudicator for a finding.
I see you are doing the ole' fundie side-step and the soft-shoe. You wouldn't
mind answering Hector's question re-stated above, would you? Or do you
presum
e to state -- for the record -- that you believe in Odin, Zeus, Apollo,
Hera,
Prometheus, Pan, Hel, Isis, Loki... thousands of deities, in fact?
rt> No offence, but I find exactly that attitude being
rt> expressed by the nasty boys in this echo.
Does anyone who ask you a question expecting an honest, rational answer
consti
tute what you consider a "nasty boy," Richard?
~*~ "Pi = 3, no error at all - Jesus is God, so listen to Paul! With
faith in your Babble, beat Satan at Scrabble! Type things to hide
your illiterate scrawl." - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: The evidence is in. You're a smeghead.
Date: 04 Feb 94 14:58:40
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df274
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f04
PID: FM 2.02
ML> No, he means hard, cold, physical evidence; not the allegory
ML> and distorted legend you provide.
rt> Back off mad dog,
FR> That's an irrational response, Richard.
I noticed that, as is typical of Christians, you refused to address that
which
you stated yet find embarrassing. Marty told you that your unevidenced
belie
fs are not evidence and neither is your tainted perception of history. Rather
than point out where Marty was "sadly mistaken," you elected to employ a
phras
e which you felt didn't require thought and so was conforting to you.
Reguardless of your willingness to recognize the fact, it was and remaind
an i
rrational response to the light of truth. It indicates that you are incapable
of logical, rational discussion.
rt> what allegory and legend?
FR> I suppose you never read the classical Christian mythologies, then?
And you also decided to ignore my question. Marty pointed at your mythologies
and you complained that you didn't know about them. I specified them by
name
and you ignored the question stated above entirely. And your response to
Mar
ty? Let's take a good look at what Christianity does to people:
rt> Are you on drugs?
The only evidence which you are supplying, Richard, is that Christianity
can d
amage people so badly and so soundly that they are unwilling to think rational
ly or think at all.
It's faintly disgusting, since you asked.
rt>> This is a definition of _evidence_.
FR> An incorrect, inaccurate one.
rt> Doncha wish!
If you have any evidence whatsoever, please present it. We have heard baseles
s assertions of opinion and superstitious beliefs far too many times to
keep t
rack. Some evidence would be a welcome change of "paste" in fact.
rt> Textbook stuff.
FR> Time to buy a _secular_ text book, Richard.
Did you ever buy yourself a secular text book, son?
rt>> Brain dead??? (satire only, calm down.).
rt> Satire FR my man, satire. I jest when in despair
rt> over what passes as wisdom in this world.
Silly boy, that's three times that George Orwell would be proud that you
prove
d him a highly accurate seer of the highest quality.
rt> You of all people should not need a topic reminder.
And why me, specifically? The topic is evidence. Your claims
that
you have some, in fact, when you continually refuse to offer it.
rt> This is _there is EVIDENCE_ a rebuttal to _there is NO evidence_.
Then why don't you share it?
rt> What the hell is _critical chinking_, one
rt> of those eastern philosophy things?
If you knew what critical thought was, you wouldn't be making occult claims
ab
out evidence only you know about, Richard.
FR> ~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
FR> - Rodney Matejek
rt> A dull light blindeth not. Do pigs sweat?
Certainly the light of reason is uncomfortable -- which is why Christians
alwa
ys have their heads in places where the light of reason never reaches.
~*~ These experiments weren't conducted by Joe Blow these people know
what they are talking about. you don't! - Keith Jones
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Hector the Horrible
Date: 04 Feb 94 15:10:56
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df275
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f06
PID: FM 2.02
rt>> You may not like it, but in order to discount it
rt>> you must change the meaning of the word _evidence_.
FR> Break out the life rafts, Richard. Your beliefs are in flame and your
FR> unsupportable argument is leaking very badly. Yet, as we have seen,
FR> Hector did, indeed, pick a fight with an unarmed (and unsupportable)
FR> fool.
rt> Ever get that _I'm all puffed up feeling_?
Quite often, certainly! I can safely say that I'm glad I'm not
a Chr
istian and I certainly take pride in my ability to have escaped from indoctrin
ation into the death cult though my own cognative abilities. The pride,
by th
e way, is justified every time you post a message.
rt> Why not jump on my reply to Derek Clayton,
rt> its kinda where the debate is at right now.
You don't seem to know what Echo Mail is, Richard. Many of the participants
a
re spread through-out the world. I, myself, am in Holland where data feeds
ar
e often once a week. You can't pick one or two of those hurtful better
educat
ed participants to do battle with and then demand that everyone else not
sneek
up behind your unarmed rear quarters (so-to-speak.)
rt> (I know, you are very intelligent, BUT respect
rt> for God is the beginning of wisdom.
Belief in invisible superfriends is indicitive of a mental malady, son.
rt> Ya know even Steven H. does not dismiss God the Creator, why
rt> don't you drop him a line, or do you distain him as a FOOL?)
You are lieing, of course. Specifically, he negates entirely the occult
belie
f in a 'creator god' as you claim inasmuchas such a 'creator' would be a
bumbe
ling fool, incapable of getting the job done right. Such a 'creator' would
ha
ve its license taken away were it to decide to take up driving a car, in
fact,
if the biological evolutionary artifacts are recognized.
What he doesn't negate is the possibility that there are deities in hiding
som
ewhere, too frightened of humanity to show themselves.
rt> Thats OK, the Lord has assured me I'm fireproof!
Strange, bizzare thing, Christianity.
rt> My argument is leaking. thats cute!
You should stick around and see some of my best inflamatory
rheto
ric. Seriously you have yet to see the best materials. If I may say so,
you'
re simply not worth the effort.
rt> I know you are a senior guy, but you are off base, seriously off base
rt> when you say I am presenting _mere belief_ as evidence. The evidence
rt> is a changed life. Many, many changed lives. Tangable, measurable,
rt> personally witnessed, changed lives.
Were you to pick up a security blanket and carry it with you rather than
a dei
ty belief in the occult, you would also have had a changed life -- one for
the
better, if your posts are any indication.
Your changed life is evidence of a belief in the occult, not in the existance
of those occult entities you like to create.
~*~ Whoever needs psychologists needs their head examined. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: Playing by the rules....
Date: 04 Feb 94 15:16:04
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df276
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f07
PID: FM 2.02
HP> Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lies, hallucination or
HP> madness, often even to (or particularly to) the one doing the
HP> testifying.
rt>> Ya know Hector, having read a number of your assaults, I
rt>> can't help but notice, that you behave like your imagined enemy.
FR> Amazing. The demand that asking people for their evidence when they
FR> make outrageous claims is an 'attack' is only heard from those with
FR> psychological difficulties.
rt> No offence, FR but I am sure HP can answer his own mail and I really
rt> do not need you to explain what he meant or what I meant, for that
rt> matter.
The fact that you attribute a rational and reasonable comment of Hector's
to b
e a "personal attack" is indicitive of a very real inability to discern
fact f
rom fantasy. I felt that it was my duty -- nay, my calling! -- to try to
assi
st the dear occultist understand that which Hector had tried to tell you.
rt> I realize if stimulated you can bring insult to a new zenith
There is no need. You insult yourself quite nicely.
rt> but SIX replies from you in one packet is
rt> more than even I have the patience for.
The attention span of the Christian is logged and noted.
rt> No offence but I just don't find you that much fun to talk to.
I am not surprised. Yet you lied anyway. Admit that you enjoyed my metaphore
s for the destruction of your laughable assertions.
rt> Your point has been made, want to give me a hand
rt> with all this crap, play Gods advocate for a while?
I feel no need to adopt an unsupportable, superstitious posistion which
has no
evidence to back it up. That would be, well, silly.
~*~ Christianity is evil by it's own standards. - Paul Feonic
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Richard Thorneycroft
Sub: The other barrel.....
Date: 04 Feb 94 15:22:51
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df277
REPLY: 1:221/950.0 2d4d8f08
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Er, um, sorry to interrupt you in mid-rant yet personal testimony is
FR> not admissable as evidence unless there is testable, falsifiable
FR> testimony being offered backed by either an admission of guilt by the
FR> individual being grilled or by physical evidence -- such as a bank
FR> video camera tape.
rt> Guilty as charged
That's the device Marty is working on; the "guilty as charged particle beam,
w
eapon." He's going to use it to detonate Jupiter and Martin Goldberg will
set
himself up his own little fiefdom on Gannymead.
rt> now let me explain just how guilty I am of being a changed
rt> man, and my friend here with the video camera will tell ya too.
Lovely. We get to see someone talk about a belief which "changed" him even
as
he claims that it was because his beliefs were real.
rt> What are you anyway?
You mean am I animal, vegetable or mineral? Male, female,
fagget
? Butcher, baker, candle-stick maker?
I am Archemedies in this echo, in Internet, and someone else
en
tirely in the public eye. If you want an answer to your question, please
feel free to ask specifics. I'll be truthful up to and until questions
about
my dick size.
~*~ If Jesus were born today, He'd surely refuse to become a Christian
- Ken
---
* Origin: Don't hate me because I'm well hung. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: George Wells
Sub: GOD HAS LEFT
Date: 04 Feb 94 16:08:17
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 118df278
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Greetings, George! Welcome to HolySmoke.
gw> I thank you for your greeting. Your welcome honours me.
Any times! By the way: I, myself, welcome spelling corrections from other
pa
rticipants only because I so badly need them. Steve Rose only
mentio
ned that you spelled "believe" incorrectly. I, myself, would have thanked
him
and then pressed onward. We're all here to learn from and about each other.
gw>> I am an Anglican, and do have a beleif that at one time, yes, there
gw>> was a "God" that watched over, and guided people in the very early
gw>> year of mankind. However, I also beleive that soon after his son
gw>> departed from this world, that he no longer watched over us, and does
gw>> not to> this day.
FR> That is at least a reasonable belief, to some extent, and a belief that
FR> even I, a rabid atheist, can respect. More to the point, it is an
FR> ideology which does not attempt to include the non-believer -- that,
in
FR> itself, is worth a "well done" from my book.
gw> I'm glad you, as a serious non-believer, can see my point.
Most of the rabid atheists and somewhat calmer atheists in this forum can
prob
ably agree with your viewpoint. And I noticed that the religiouz zealots
boun
ced off of you; one claiming that "you'll burn for heresy with the rest."
Pay no attention to the zealots for they are well and truely fucked-over.
gw> I suppose I have become too rigid, (I'd like to say
gw> logical), and "proof-seeking" to beleive anything else.
The preponderance of facts tend to support your contention when viewed with
a
deity belief. That the deities of your choice were required for the formation
of the universe and the existance of life is an understandable belief.
That
the deities soon lost interest and walked away is also an understandbale
belie
f if only to judge by what humanity has done to each other and what natural
di
sasters do to us.
gw>> It would appear to me that this world is some great experiment
gw>> on this "God"'s part, which he grew tired of, and left us.
FR> We've certainly made quite a mess, haven't we?
gw> I believe that a lack of vision on our previous generations' part is
gw> mostly to blame. Also, this planet didn't exactly come with a user's
gw> manual...
Sad, isn't it? Acid rain affects even the most remote forests
of t
he world where Eskimos (see what I mean about my spelling?!) can look up
at th
e denuded tops of the tress and wonder if the round-eyes might be responsible
for that as well.
FR> BTW: You'll find one or two deists in this forum who hold your opinion.
FR> I would suggest that you seek them out for mutual support -- if they
FR> have not already mentioned that your views match theirs.
gw> I'm not familiar with the term "Deist"...just exactly what are these?
You might get one or two answers and have recieved them already since my
mail
lags yet it's the posistion which you stipulated: One or more deities started
the ball rolling, either did or did not have a hand in the creation of life,
and then walked away to go on to bigger and perhaps better things.
A Deist might say that the so-called "Big Bang" was instigated by a deity
but
that the involvement ended with that.
~*~ What we've got here is - failure to communicate. - Cool Hand Luke
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Discovery of the divine
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:20:20
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192431c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> It's amazing, isn't it? Did you see Mike Staab (sp?) try to
FR> wiggle out from under the problem of there being two
FR> conflicting accounts of this mythos' death?
sq> We've seen this backpedalling done in this forum time and time again.
If it isn't virgin births, speaking in tounges, backwards speech, or mystical,
magical boats, it's Judas.
FR> "Why, he hung himself on a tree
FR> overlooking a cliff and the rope broke."
sq> Did you see what Marilyn Burge said about it? -Priceless-. :)
He should have checked his equipment, yeah. }:-}
CJ>> present scholars from whom I can draw reasonable arguments:
CJ>> Aquinas, Anselm, Descartes, Locke, Augustine, Carl F.H. Henry,
CJ>> R.C. Sproul, Clark Pinnock, et. al.
FR> John Locke, no less.
sq> Of course, he ignored MY list.
Certainly. Your list is a list of 'sinners.'
FR> Why didn't this clown also include Torqueamada, Pope Pious X,
FR> Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, and Jimmy Swaggart?
sq> They weren't thinkers? :) ["Torquemada", man!
sq> It's even on the back of my time card this week!]
One little added 'a.' It's only one.
sq>> So what are we going to do? Sit here and throw quotes around?
FR> Sure! Let's quote some mythology!
FR> Now. Let me see. What mythology can we expect to see? }:-}
sq> Shit...now I have to go find my copy of
sq> Crossley-Holland for some Odin stories.
Who was it that kept posting endless tirades about... ah, yes. "First
Axe."
We all know who he was, after awhile, yet I'll be dipped if I can't recall
his
name.
~*~ Moses went walking with a staff of wood, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Newton got beaned by the apple good, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - R.E.M.
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: USA Vs. USSR in "morality"
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:21:47
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192431d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Amazing that some people feel the need to find demons every
FR> place they look.
sq> Netmail coming with an interesting bit I received today.
Got her. Hain't read her yet.
FR> Well, a download from Holland -- even on company Sprint -- is
FR> contraindicated at this time.
sq> I've got an address...want me to mail you a copy of Doom?
I'll look the puppy over when I return to the real world, thanks, no.
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Christian Coalition is groaning...
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:25:30
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192431e
PID: FM 2.02
sq>> I can't even threaten the guy with a straight face anymore.
FR> I know what you mean. A kitten terrorizing a ball of string.
sq> I'm certain we'll get the David and Goliath story
sq> from him sooner or later. At least David had a rock.
Ya' think so? I suspect that we only hear from the clown when the postperson
brings him a religious tract or when he's been watching "the 700 club."
FR> We _want_ your Creamy Ranch Dressing, you know. We all do.
sq> I want his children alright, but -to eat-.
They go well together, I hear, yeah.
~*~ If I can ever be of any further assistance to you in my capacity of
NEC or as a concerned person, please hesitate to write.
-- Christopher M. Faubert, Net 330 NEC
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: It's just a clef to the right.
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:35:57
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192431f
PID: FM 2.02
rc>> ... "141, 142, 143, 144!" she counted grossly.
FR>> "Argh! Ack! Greck!" he said heartlessly.
ml>> "Whoops. I just dropped a running chain saw." he said offhandedly.
FR>> "I just don't give a rat's ass," she said carelessly.
ml>> "Just look at all that waste oil swirling down the sewer!",
ml>> said Dwayne uncutously.
ml>> ... "I'm going to drill me a well.", said Derrick boringly.
fr>> "I'm pennyless!" Jesse said unaccountably.
jv>> "I can't sing that quarter note!" he quavered.
ml>> "I know. I know." he intoned flatly.
FR> "I can't _stand_ all these dead people," Joe said cryptically.
sq> "I failed my junior year", he muttered sophomorically.
"Get this elephant off of me!" he said, quite depressed.
~*~ OK, here's your apology, Kev: go fuck yourself in your preferred
orifice with a dung-clotted serving spoon. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Fascinating
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:43:45
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924320
PID: FM 2.02
>>>>> Obviously your ignorance of western civilization is lacking.
Read this again. Your ignorance is lacking; meaning you're not ignorant.
~*~ Daddy didn't give attention to the fact that Mommy didn't care.
- Pearl Jam
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: More lies
Date: 04 Feb 94 18:59:38
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924321
PID: FM 2.02
JCj> The emptiness, as I have made clear,
jcj> afflicts us all -- me as well as Steve.
You seem bent upon trying to convince yourself that everyone else is crazy
just because you are and you can't contemplate an existance of rationality.
You are, in my opinion, in need of professional, psychological assistance.
My
unsolicited advice is for you to try to discover why you feel "empty" and
to
take steps to correct the problem. I would also suggest that you take a
good
look at your inability to recognize that your mental malady is not everyone
elses.
Your inability to recognize that others are perfectly happy without your
deiti
es is a very real problem which you should think about addressing. And
I don'
t even care if you feel you must go to a priest to talk it over and perhaps
wo
rk past it.
You have a problem, guy, and I really do think you should fix it.
~*~ You -NEED- this echo! It has become your crack cocain. - David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:02:02
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924322
PID: FM 2.02
le>> Death sits waiting to tap us at any minute,
FR> Simply don't turn around and look.
sq> ... Never knock on death's door: Ring the doorbell and run instead.
What's that one, "chill out, guy. I'm just here for your hamster."
~*~ It's the end of the world as we know, ah it's the end of the world
as we know it -- and I feel fine - R.E.M.
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Advanced civilizations -- in your dreams
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:13:40
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924323
PID: FM 2.02
sq>> Boy, it sure got quiet out in SKEPTIC, didn't it?
FR> Good!
sq> It puzzles me as to how I, as an amateur linguist, got the guy
sq> to shut up about his Biblical English claims, yet he continues
sq> spouting off physics that would have put Einstein on the floor.
Come now, the contest was hardly fair. This is a clown who pointed at Star
Tr
ek and said that, since they get up to warp 9, it's not impossible. This
is a
clown who watched CBS and thought that there was real video tapes of his
myth
ological boat. 'A guy who thinks "The Force" is real because he saw it
used i
n Star Wars!
The utter nonsense and sheer ignorance was astounding. "Absolute zero,"
the m
onkey bleated, "is a man-made construct." He had to shut up about his bizzare
beliefs (programmed into him by his masters, almost certainly) as he didn't
s
ee Sparticus. He continued to bleat his ignorance of even the most simple
phy
sics because he saw it all on Star Trek.
Well, all fine and dandy. He's a hope that he doesn't breed.
sq> Was it Hector Plasmic who said "Stephen Hawking has walked
sq> further in his wheelchair than you have with your own two
sq> legs"? I always liked that.
Something like that, yeah.
rb>>> Just watch The Learning Channel (TLC).
sq> Just typical. You can hear Ron Stringfellow now, in fact: "Next!"
Who?
FR> I forgot that the clown pointed at TLC as an 'authority.'
sq> No, he pointed at TV as an authority. *Important point*
I slovenly lean to the left corrected. }:-}
rb>> You missed a very important point: Let's have a little
rb>> discussion about CBS' last little folly about Noah's Ark.
sq> Crickets again?
Sure. That was the button you pressed, wasn't it?
~*~ This line added to support David Rice's
counting fetish. :-) - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:19:25
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924324
PID: FM 2.02
#include Suzy Quarrella
SQ>> ... AIDS cures queers (see Romans 1:27) [Steve Winter]
szq>> Now that's hateful!
sq> And so very Christian:
Backed-up by popular mythology, yes. And what other religious clubs in
the Un
ited States may boast of having their very own book of mythologies any time
th
ey need a justification?
Christians should take a good look at their fellow club members and either
dec
ide that it's gone on long enough and fix it or adopt something less
destructive. I would perfer that they educate themselves out of deity beliefs
yet that's not ever possible, it seems.
sq> As I mentioned to you in the car the other night, what you
sq> have here is someone shooting an arrow into the wall and THEN
sq> painting a target around it. Winter hates "queers", and he
sq> simply uses Jesus to excuse his hatred.
That's it exactly. If Christianity didn't exist, he would be just as hateful
using some other justification.
FR> We were all disgust-ted by this quote of Steve Winter's. I
FR> sent a policy complaint to his network coordinator on the
FR> grounds that he was being too annoying.
sq> And of course, you were probably told that
sq> you were being too easily annoyed.
No, I heard nothing. His first network coordinator told me that he was
damned
tired of having to handle policy complaints and he could boast of being
the n
etwork coordinator who has had to handle more than any other. I would guess
t
hat this was part of the reason the head of the Branch Winterians was ejected
from FidoNet and begged to be let back in as a regional node.
~*~ OK, here's your apology, Kev: go fuck yourself in your preferred
orifice with a dung-clotted serving spoon. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:22:23
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924325
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> I'll bet you a George Bush <-spit-> American Dollar
szq>> Now you're being hateful! I like George and I like Ronnie.
FR> <-gasp-!> Certainly you can't be serious! Ron, sure! I mean,
FR> who _wouldn't_ like to have some time alone with the guy but
FR> George!?
sq> Oh, she's serious alright, and don't call her 'Shirley'.
sq> Hey, you know who her uncle is. :)
Pol Pot?! I thought George was a "persona non gratis" (mixing
ba
d spelling, english, and Dutch for Jesus.)
~*~ The Bible says "Hate black SKIN not the black person." - David Rice
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Judas failed miserably
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:24:55
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924326
PID: FM 2.02
#include Marilyn Burge
MB> their explanation, it requires Judas to climb out on a limb
MB> that overhangs a cliff, tie a rope around the limb, then tie
MB> the other end around his neck, then jump. Upon jumping, he
MB> discovers the hard way that the rope was not very sturdy, it
MB> breaks, and he tumbles down the cliff.
sq> Judas sold God's kid out, so God got revenge
sq> on him by making him die strangely. No?
That's it. That's what happened. Only it made him die twice.
~*~ You apparently want the whacko flowers and light conference
down the hall. Just follow the trail of drool, and check your
soul with Winters at the door. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Steve's PR for your religion
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:36:54
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924327
PID: FM 2.02
#include Dan Lafferty
dl>> "Hets" don't engage in "homo" acts.
FR> What's a homo act? Please be specific as I don't wish to have
I doubt that I get an answer.
sq> My wife tells me that one of her brothers (jobless, of
sq> course) is all paranoid that "the fags" are trying to pick him up.
A little wishful thinking? Does he step outside, look left and right and
look
a little disappointed when he doesn't see any fags trying to get him?
Oh! Speaking of fags! I've got some network mail from Questor.
I
saw it his the system from Internet yet I have yet to read net mail.
sq> Suzy informs me that he can't pick up ugly women, let alone fags. :)
Wimmin are nothing but a pain anyway.
~*~ If you get all bent out of shape reading this, I DARE YOU TO
PROVE ME WRONG!!!! Otherwise fuck off - Rick Vanderzwaag
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: GODS AND GODDESSES ARE ALL WET BEHIND THE TAILS
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:41:41
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924328
PID: FM 2.02
sq>>> But yet he dares not admit that his make-believe friend is no
sq>>> different than that of Robert's god-daughter (Gotta change the
sq>>> name of that title. :).
FR>> Strange, huh? Any normal, rational, thinking individual would
FR>> merely say either "yes" or "no" and either append disclaimers
FR>> as needed or not.
jcj>> I notice his participation has been reduced lately.
sq> Ergo, we must assume that he has found Jesus.
He's off somewhere stuffing pepper into his mug with the hopes no one will
not
ice. I'm sure that he's just engaged in a little blasphemy.
FR> Steve! Start up your "Inquisistional Moments" series.
sq>
Circle it.
FR> Well I, certainly, was surprised. (BTW: It's midnight here
FR> and your computer isn't answering in the background task. Put
sq> No, Satan sabotaged it when we went away to
sq> Hot Springs for the weekend. All is well now.
I got no confirmation from david of an important news item. Did he get
it, do
you know? Fer all I know, he's in the South Pacific Rim right now.
FR> I have a software project to mayhaps bounce off of you, now
FR> that you mention it. When or if your project with Reverened
FR> Jennings reaches a point where you have time, I'll upload my
FR> intentions to your system.
sq> By all means, please do so.
Okay. I'll type up a brief note and then work on the design doc later.
~*~ D'you wear a black arm band when they shot the man who said
"Peace could last forever" - GNR
---
* Origin: In the shadow, boy meets man (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Causation and the Universe
Date: 04 Feb 94 19:57:59
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192432b
REPLY: 1:247/133 10034529
PID: FM 2.02
>> Does radioactive decay have a cause, Mr Vanderzwaag? How about a
rv> that I am attending, and according to him, the causal chain in beta
rv> decay (which was the example that Frederic Rice used) is complete, and
rv> is not an instance of an event without a cause. (I'll deal with that
in
rv> a message to him.)
I'm neatly pissing my pants in anticipation.
-=-
I looked forward at the first three lengthy tirades. Skimming through them,
I
see nothing which could be considered an attempt to support your posistion
th
at everything must have a cause. You have dropped several names, repeated
the
m, and made no attempt to tie it together. Not only that, you got your
authors mixed up with the works. (I suspect you didn't take very good notes,
Rick.)
Your ignorance as to what space/time is continued unabaited, I noticed.
Rather
than just takeing notes, take the time to read what you're priests told
you t
o believe, okay?
~*~ Freedom to engage in voluntary school sacrifices. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 04 Feb 94 20:12:58
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192432c
REPLY: 1:247/133 1003452d
PID: FM 2.02
rv> Condition: Sober, conscious
rv> Are you happy now???
Walk this line for me
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
fr> He raised several good points. If you can not be expected to be
rv> He raised bulshit.
Well, you know, Rick, I would like to believe you and all yet your credability
is something lacking of late. You rather quack and waddle like a certain
fli
ght-capable aquatic fowl and exhibit a marked ignorance about even the most
mu
ndane and simple physics.
fr> My _friendly_ suggestion is to find a more expensive habit.
rv> Cute, maybe you should take a .357 and blow your brains out.
But Rick, I only have the one.
rv> The world might be a better place for it.
Well, Rick would have one less person pointing out his misconceptions, at
any
rate, yes.
fr> Then __do__so__! Ask him for a formal challange and state the
fr> terms of the conditions.
rv> Sure, you come up with the plane tickets, the auditorium, and fly
rv> everyone of our profs down there, and no problem, I'll take him on.
No, no. You are probably dimly aware that there is a plan to accumulate
HolyS
moke participants together in Las Vegas for a couple of days in June or
July,
don't you? If you find that Hector rubs you the wrong way, ask him if he
migh
t be willing to debate you for a half hour each, taking ten minutes at a
sprea
d. Doubtless few could find the time to get to Las Vegas but you and he
might
. Certainly I will try to make it. You could try to work up the audacity
to
presume to challange me!
fr> Were he to agree you would shit your pants and like as not show
fr> up drunker than The Lord on the day of the debate.
rv> Drunk or sober, I would win. It would not matter. Hector is a brainless
rv> child that didn't get enough attention as a child, and got picked on
a
rv> little too much.
Them's a clear challange if ever I heard one.
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: mick howland
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 04 Feb 94 20:17:17
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192432d
REPLY: 3:690/660@fidonet 3b2cb476
PID: FM 2.02
FR> BINGO! We have a winner. Everyone turn in your cards.
> +----+----+----+----+----+
> | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
> |----|----|----|----|----|
> | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
> |----|----|----|----|----|
> | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
> |----|----|----|----|----|
> | xx | xx | xx | xx | 42 |
> |----|----|----|----|----|
> | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx |
> +----+----+----+----+----+
mh> Damn! And I was so close.
Ya' only got O-42!
~*~ Let us trust in God who has alway fooled us in the past. - Unknown
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: GODS AND GODDESSES ARE ALL WET BEHIND THE TAILS
Date: 04 Feb 94 20:22:29
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192432e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The origins of Easter seem to indicate it pretty well. I
FR> have been using "Isis/Jesus" for the last couple of days
FR> to see what comes of it -- someone may provide their
FR> archived information on the origins.
jjh> I don't really see the association between Isis and Jesus.
jjh> I thought it was Osiris who was murdered and then resurrected.
The tie-in is between the fertility symbology employed at Easter. Easter
was
originally a Jewish festival, as I recall, which closely coincided with
the fe
stival which honored/recognized the rebirth of nature every year. It became
v
ery easy to rework the rebirth of nature into the reanimation of the Jesus
myt
hos.
The eggs and bunnies are a good clue as to who is being worshipped during
East
er. The Orient typically sees the Goddess Isis when they look at the Moon
(wh
ich is a female fertility goddess as it has phases which closly mimic a
female
s phases) as they fancy that they can make out a bunny whereas in Westernized
cultures, we claim to see a mans face.
Someone around here could probably plug dates and places into my outline
and w
ould doubtless be a great deal more accurate.
~*~ "Join us on the dark side, Jake." - Questor Thews
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: +Origin:
Date: 04 Feb 94 20:25:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1192432f
PID: FM 2.02
ml> ... HolySmoke: A head-on collision on the Information Superhighway.
FR> Neat! But that's what's to be expected when the fundy closes his eyes
FR> and thinks that his deities are going to save him.
ml> A clash between the Yugo of belief and the Kenworth of reality.
"Did you hear something?"
"Must a' been a cat."
~*~ You can UV irradiate a cockroach all day long and all
you'll have is a warm cockroach. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Pizza Fiasco
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:02:32
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924330
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Oh please, he knows what he's about. I'm surprised that he admitted
FR> that he has such things in his rather large and, um, diverse library.
ml> You ought to see my library...
Scan it in!
FR> He is, as I am, very concerned for what we both percieve to be a very
FR> real environmental problem. It would be difficult to convince either
FR> of us that a problem does not, in fact, exist.
ml> Of course there is a problem. A problem with self-appointed,
ml> Anyways. Yep, there are environmental problems. Lissen up, sonny.
ml> I could show you shit over in Russia that's turn you WHITE!
I read several reports in a journal about what was discovered in East Germany.
And there was a popularized magazine (Scientific American, perhaps) which
too
k a good look at the pollution within the old Soviet empire.
Never having seen it up close and personal, I can none-the-less accept your
as
sessment that it would turn me whiter than a honkey at a Texas klan bake.
ml> But, do you really think that there are groups of people who
ml> deliberately go out and wantonly pollute, destroy and maim the
ml> environment just for grins?
Fuck no. You have mistaken me for someone else. And I doubt that David
consi
ders that, either. We do recognize that dumping toxic wastes remains a
real p
roblem and that it is financially more attractive than spending the money
requ
ired to clean it up right.
FR> There _have_ been arrests at his house for, er, um, "minor
FR> misunderstandings with the law?" Yeah, that about sums it
FR> up nicely.
ml>> Not another "Great Pizza Menu Fiasco"?
FR> I suppose I had better type that one up and come clean.
ml> tap...tap...tap...We're waiting...
"You're not leaving this spaceship until you put on your sweaters."
FR> Yet, no, nothing like the hushed-up and embarrassing Fiasco.
FR> Hell, I might even be tempted to name some names. I think,
FR> in this instance, his room-mates (so-to-speak) were responsible
FR> and quickly released.
ml> Still waiting...
How can I talk about it when there are still people out looking for the
guilty
party?! Even in network mail I couldn't trust a full admission. 'Fact
is, I
should have kept me yap shut about the damned Pizza Fiasco and the Automated
Call Distributor I designed. That's it, you know. I shoulda' just kept
me mo
uth shut. Yet:
__Hypothetically__ speaking, let us -- just for the sake of argument, you
unde
rstand -- let us suppose that someone -- let's call him, oh, "Jesse" --
was de
signing and building an automated telephone call distributor. Let us also
ass
ume that Jesse was a hard worker and that he was brought into the project
to g
et it done quickly and done right. So much so was he a good worker that
the c
ompany he worked for -- let's call it, oh "Satanic Versus" -- informed Jesse
t
hat all he needed to do to have the company buy him dinner was to use a
specia
l phone number, place an order, and pizza would be delivered automatically
thr
ough the combine of Dominos' Pizza. A recording machine merely took orders,
y
ou see, with an address and the unsightly billing was
handled later by the little people in accounting.
Billing for the pizza, Jesse found out, was quite interesting. In fact,
just
too interesting and too far fucking out a good deal to leave entirely alone
th
en only to be used two or three times a week. It became so easy to get
breakf
ast, lunch, and dinner in the form of a pizza delivered and never having
to pa
y for it that Jesse latched upon a good idea. A lovely idea. And quite
sinfu
l.
Time tables designed to perform changes in routes of calls were contrived,
flo
w-charts of the evil deeds to performed were made, data tables entered,
and th
e crank was turned.
At a specific time every night, a time table would seize an outbound trunk
gro
up, search for a line behind a Centrex, seize it, listen for dial tone,
dial 9
to seize a line outside of Centrex, listen for dial tone again, and then
DTMF
generate the special pizza number.
Upon getting answer supervision from the outbound Centrex, the machine Jesse
c
onfigured to do his evil deed seized a SAS card (Speech Analysis and Synthesis
) causing a digitally-recorded order for a large cheese pizza with lots
of pep
pers and onions on it, asking the thing to be delivered to "Satanic Versus."
With the SAS channel falling silent, the 'dial tone detector' would return
'bu
sy' to the outbound trunk group which would, thinking the call was never
place
d, ask the Centrex CO to disconnect. The OTG propagated the busy back through
the objects until the Time Table sat and watched for another day.
Little did Jesse know but that he overlooked week-ends. After a couple
of wee
ks, he dropped most days out of the time table yet he allowed the default
rout
e tables to be employed on week-ends as he didn't explicitly describe inaction
on week-ends.
After a couple of months, Domino's Pizza started to complain. After another
m
onth, Domino's dropped the telephone line entirely and billed "Satanic Versus"
for the change in telephone number and the cost of printing and posting
the n
ew number to corporate businesses. "Satanic Versus," of course, didn't
know w
ho was at work making these billings and they set out to capture the bandit
tr
ying to collect his or her pizzas.
They were doomed to failure because Jesse didn't know shit about what he
was d
oing to his pizza golden cow.
Eventually someone at Domino's was said to have complained about picking
up th
e telephone asking the person who they were and having not gotten an answer.
T
hat news got back to Jesse and he realized that the reason he wasn't getting
h
is pizza any more was because he fucked up rather badly.
FR> Then there was "The Computer Room Bombing of 1978" in
FR> Costa Mesa, California, to remember.
ml>> What'd he think? Sky Net was about to become sentient?
FR> More like, "What are you doing, Dave?" "Hold this for
FR> me, would you Hal?" "Where are you going, Dave?" "Just behind this
FR> table here for a moment. Just don't drop that."
ml> A little re-programming with an axe?
One that he'll never forget, yeah.
ml> ... HolySmoke: Refusal to yield to idiots on the Information
ml> Superhighway.
FR> HolySmoke: Arresting fundies for driving under the influence on the
FR> Information Highway.
FR> HolySmoke: Pulling over fundies for impeeding traffic on the
FR> Information Highway.
ml> You're catching on....
I hope you're keeping a list!
~*~ "Join us on the dark side, Jake." - Questor Thews
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Rose
Sub: WHY BROTHER?
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:06:06
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924331
REPLY: 1:109/601 2d4ef8cb
PID: FM 2.02
WS> May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain
sr> Much as you are forced to do every sunday. Dig deep into that wallet!
Steve! You're a riot! Seriously a butt-fucking riot! }:-}
~*~ You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners - jonny vee
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Coward for Christ
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:08:05
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924332
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Which is Goatshit! I __saw__ Dopefish today.
sq>> He talks to me, in fact.
FR> Suzy! Run for your life!
sq> It's OK...I'm a patriarch. I can do this kind of stuff, you know.
sq> ... Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun.
Ted Kennedy's dick has killed more people than my car.
~*~ WINE: A fermented concoction of the Devil, drunk by
Christians during Communion. - Marty Leipzig
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: ATHIESTS..WHY BOTHER?
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:11:35
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924333
PID: FM 2.02
RT> Let me get this straight, you want to expose my PARADOX, whooo
RT> yaaa! You want to dissect my foolish appearing belief that is
RT> FOUNDED ON TRUTH! Amen, glory to God, praise to the Most High!!
RT> As a rule of thumb, when you use so many big words, check the
RT> dictionary, you might get caught with your pants down.
sq> Is your capture log on? Are you getting this?
Comming in five-by-five, CAPCO South.
sq> I think Martin Goldberg and I have another member of the
sq> Rogue's Gallery here. He's even talking about "pants down".
We all know what he wants. There is no rational discussion in Richard.
sq> I had written a rather lengthy flame/rebuttal to some of the
sq> drivel he aimed in my direction (Obviously, he's never been
sq> to the Bible Belt, and probably not the US either.), but after
sq> reading some of his laughable horseshit today, I scuttled it.
sq> This guy just can't be for real.
Hey! I did the same with half of my messages to him. Since he's unwilling
to
address the issues, I don't see any pressing need to press him to do so.
~*~ If Jesus were born today, He'd surely refuse to become a Christian
- Ken
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Judgment
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:18:42
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924334
PID: FM 2.02
#include Joe Siegler
JS> And from what I've seen I would agree; so why do you bother?
JS> I don't normally read this conference, but Steve Quarrella
JS> does. Since we work together, I see a lot of what he reads
JS> from time to time, and I saw your message that I originally
JS> replied to.
sq> Get him with the Black Sabbath quotes, get him with the Black Sabbath
sq> quotes! [Jesse might not remember that you're the guy I mentioned in
my
sq> "I am so grateful!" post a short time ago. :) ]
Joe is at least presenting a reasonable, rational face here. I would bet
that
if he were to discuss issues with the rabid atheists here, we might see
that
he is worth respecting -- one of the few, in fact.
~*~ What you are sorely lacking here is a point. - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: A blessing
Date: 04 Feb 94 21:19:50
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 11924335
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d4f8e8f
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> Psa 52:1-5
I'm not sure yet perhaps we've had a second attempt at an echocism.
~*~ We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already
told us what happened. Why do we need further proof. - Derek Williams
---
* Origin: And whatever's in the register, pops. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Statistics warning
Date: 05 Feb 94 10:51:33
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 120ada6c
PID: FM 2.02
Get ready for a few statistics.
o These are not posted to this forum very often because they
are rather lengthy. If your low-technology OLR chokes on
it or you are missing some of the list, flag me and I'll tell
you where to go.
o You will find a complete list of individuals, fake names, and
unusual addressing in this list as I made no attempt to
filter it. (Flags have been stripped from the list for the
obvious reasons you can easilly guess.) The totals are going
to be inaccurate as archive files are missing.
o The compilation program also supports the inclusion of flags.
A 'mailing list' of the better educated (fuck yourself, Jesse)
may be requested by dropping me a note if you have a broadcast
to make and wish to target a subset or groups of subsets.
o Suggestions for flag-types should be sent directly to me. If
you think, for instance, that there should be a flag for
homophobes, let me know. Or if there should be a flag for
McCarthyists (fuck yourself, Jesse) or for theocracy-wanna-bes,
let me know. You can ask for mailing lists based upon any of
the flags.
o The last point I need not mention so I won't.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Statistics - Names and Address
Date: 05 Feb 94 10:52:04
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 120ada6d
PID: FM 2.02
name Aaron Boyden, (1:206/2720)
name Abacus, (1:102/890)
name Adam Hawkins, (1:272/85)
name Adriel Ickler, (1:387/303)
name agnostic@stein2.u.wa, (1:124/9005)
name Al Hazred, (1:380/16)
name Al Tufano, (1:272/85)
name Alan Hess, (1:261/1000)
name Alan Jennings, (1:3800/6)
name Albertus Magnus, (93:9609/0.0)
name Alec Grynspan, (1:250/224)
name Alexander Bozof, (1:123/44.0)
name Alleycat, (1:247/133)
name Amy Anderson-Coffin*, (1:154/40.2)
name Amy Anderson-Coffin, (1:154/40.2)
name Andrew Jackson joung, (1:102/837)
name Anson Kennedy, (1:374/14)
name Anthony Hill, (3:635/550)
name Anthony T Milazzo, (1:202/1709)
name Anton Mobius, (1:380/16)
name Archie Manning, (1:380/16)
name Ariadne, (1:153/826)
name Atheist Soldier, (1:102/890)
name Bill Bergeron, (1:203/480)
name Bill Hicks, (1:3607/25)
name Bill Moore, (1:128/50)
name Bill Wolff, (1:115/769.2)
name Blair Donnelly, (1:342/51)
name Bob Parry, (1:250/102)
name Bob Winn, (1:280/25.0)
name Brian Devlin, (1:374/69@FIDONET.ORG)
name Brian Henry, (1:280/25.0)
name Brian Moore, (1:272/85)
name Brian Newman, (1:105/69)
name Brian Shreve, (1:106/113)
name Bringfried Lilke, (1:342/51)
name Bubba, (1:3607/25)
name C. J. Henshaw, (1:250/820)
name Careful Eugene, (1:106/3323)
name Carl Mccaskey, (1:3605/723)
name Carlos Zubieta, (1:388/12.0)
name Chad Salvatore, (1:260/118.0)
name Charles Sumner, (1:2613/240)
name Cherubim, (1:347/36)
name Chris Kelling, (1:142/232.0)
name Christian Soldier, (1:123/67)
name Christopher Baker, (1:374/14)
name Chuck Darwin, (1:380/16)
name Chuck Dubman, (1:261/1093)
name Chuck Kenney, (1:203/289)
name Chuck Sandnes, (1:11/420)
name citizens@cscns.com (, (1:396/11.4)
name Comrade Fredric, (1:102/890)
name CONRAD KNUDSON, (1:2618/
name Coridon Henshaw, (1:250/820)
name Dale Heatherington, (1:133/208)
name Dale Winarski, (1:342/35)
name Dallas Mcdonald, (1:3406/27)
name Dan Buda, (1:374/14)
name Dan Ceppa, (null)
name Dan Curran, (1:203/52)
name Dan Lafferty, (1:141/1108)
name Dan Owsley, (1:104/515)
name Dan Sereduick, (1:2617/117)
name dan.mckinnon@canrem., (1:124/9005)
name Dave Honis, (1:109/601)
name Dave Keeton, (1:3406/27)
name Dave M. Warren, (1:221/283)
name Dave Schultz, (1:114/262)
name Dave Smith, (1:247/133)
name David Boyer, (1:151/2310)
name David Brandenburger, (1:202/1709)
name David Dahl, (1:272/85.0)
name David Fire, (1:19/16)
name David L. Hamiter, (1:376/140.0)
name David Macdonald, (null)
name David Rice, (1:124/9005)
name David Salvador Flore, (null)
name David Stephenson, (1:374/98)
name David Strickland, (1:124/9005)
name David Worrell, (1:3615/45.0)
name Dean Cochrane, (1:153/942.2)
name Deborah K. Miller, (1:299/299)
name Derek Clayton, (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
name Derek Maddox, (1:291/16.0)
name Derek Williams, (1:157/611)
name Doctor Ass, (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
name Don Funderburg, (1:205/15)
name Don Geser, (1:3618/10)
name Don Martin, (RA 1:109/519.37)
name Don Nightingale, (1:101/160)
name Donovan Woodside, (1:3800/6)
name Dopefish, (1:124/9005)
name Doug Mauldin, (1:106/51)
name Douglas D Simmons, (1:3406/27)
name Dov Wisebrod, (1:229/15)
name Doyle Hansel, (1:106/10000)
name Drake Koefoed, (1:152/20)
name dsf3g@faraday.clas.V, (1:124/9005)
name Duchess, (1:247/133)
name ector Plasmic, (1:380/16)
name Ed Tillman, (1:387/57)
name EDEK ANDRED WHITEWIT, (93:9901/1)
name Endora, (1:387/57)
name Eric Werner, (1:133/208)
name Ernest Gainey, (1:260/118.0)
name Frank Fury, (1:380/16)
name Fred Rice, (1:102/890)
name Fredric Rhyce, (1:102/890)
name Fredric Rice, (1:102/890)
name Gary Christina, (1:280/33)
name Gary Glunz, (1:100/4.0)
name George Kotsopoulos, (1:229/125)
name George Orwell, (1:380/16)
name GEORGE ROOT, (1:272/82.0)
name George Wells, (1:380/16)
name Grand Inquisitor, (1:291/16.0)
name Greg Gentry, (1:280/25)
name Greg Nienaltowski, (1:2410/278.0)
name Gwen Todd, (1:128/50.0)
name Gwenny the Pooh, (1:128/68)
name Harry Mudd, (1:3607/25)
name Hector Plasmic, (1:380/16)
name Herbert Wells, (1:380/16)
name Howard Harkness, (1:124/2113)
name Ian Coles. To: Judy , (1:124/9005)
name J.B. Bryant, (1:123/67)
name James Conwell, (1:106/7512)
name James Hawks, (1:130/29)
name James J. Lippard, (null)
name James Wright, (1:153/944)
name Jason Nishiyama, (1:134/157)
name Jason Parent, (1:163/286)
name Jason Rosendale, (1:291/16.0)
name Jason Wraight, (1:229/401)
name Jay Barrymore, (1:114/262)
name Jay Noyes, (1:11/156)
name Jay Smith, (1:221/275)
name Jeff Jones, (1:202/102)
name Jeff Lane, (1:272/85)
name Jerry Lee Faust, Jr., (1:387/303)
name Jerry Mccluskey, (1:342/51)
name Jesse C. Jones, (1:135/71.0)
name Jim Devore, (1:2410/278)
name Jim Martin, (1:272/85)
name Jim McCollum, (1:2613/240)
name Jim Wirth, (1:152/20)
name Joe Pia, (1:2613/240)
name Joe Savelli, (1:291/16.0)
name Joe Schultz, (1:114/262)
name Joe Siegler, (1:124/9006)
name John Beukema, (1:203/52)
name John Burnette, (1:142/232.0)
name John Cruz, (1:153/7715)
name John Freese, (1:2410/278)
name John Lewis, (1:381/112)
name John Morris, (1:19/29)
name John Musselwhite, (1:134/67)
name John Passaniti, (1:2613/102)
name John Singletary, (1:3605/723)
name jonny vee, (1:215/606)
name Josef Berg, (1:342/35)
name Joseph Britt, (1:106/113)
name Joseph Brooks, (1:202/1312.0)
name Joseph Le Vine, (1:343/
name Joshua Lee, (1:271/250.9)
name Judi Hare, (1:350/401.0)
name Karl Lembke, (1:102/943)
name Kedrick Hulett, (1:102/890)
name Keith Baxter, (1:123/40)
name Keith Belanger, (1:271/47)
name Kelsey Bjarnason, (1:153/7715)
name Kenneth Roach, (1:208/401)
name Kenneth Werneburg, (1:247/133)
name Kevin Carder, (1:299/299)
name Kevin L, (1:324/127)
name Khonsu, (1:247/133)
name Kirby Nixon, (1:134/67)
name Lady Timberwolf, (1:128/50.0)
name Lainie Petersen, (1:221/275)
name Lance Neustaeter, (1:153/7715)
name Larry Sites, (1:202/102.0)
name Larry Slade, (1:106/3323)
name Laslo Holifeld, (1:247/133)
name Len Ovens, (1:153/7070)
name LEWIS RICZKO, (1:3609/19)
name Linda Whitten, (1:128/50)
name lippard@violet.ccit., (1:124/9005)
name Liz Saunders, (1:250/664.1)
name Lonnie Branch, (1:291/16.0)
name Lonny Bethany, (1:388/12)
name Lou Dripkin, (1:124/4115.221)
name Luke Enriquez, (3:632/515)
name Lynne Rosendale, (1:291/16.0)
name Macfinn, (93:9040/4)
name Mannie Long, (1:3607/25)
name Marilyn Burge, (1:105/40.3)
name Mark Opian, (1:124/9005)
name Mark Ramsey, (1:106/10000)
name Marshall Shapiro, (1:229/15)
name Martin Goldberg, (1:124/4115.221)
name Martin Irish, (1:105/1017.0)
name Martin Riley, (1:134/95)
name Marty Leipzig, (1:106/113.0)
name Mason Taube, (1:272/85)
name Matt Kubitza, (1:134/67)
name Matt Robins, (1:102/943)
name Matthew N Lewis, (1:299/299)
name Mica Arlette, (1:134/67)
name Michael Fefer, (1:229/15)
name Michael Gothreau, (1:134/67)
name Michael Johnson, (1:106/3323)
name Michael Malone, (1:114/7)
name Michael Murrell, (1:280/71)
name Michael Voytinsky, (1:163/215)
name mick howland, (3:690/660)
name Mike Angwin, (1:106/7.0)
name Mike Apoc, (1:134/67)
name Mike Crow, (1:381/112)
name Mike Perry, (1:396/21)
name Mike Staab, (1:150/115.0)
name Mike Thornton, (1:299/299)
name Morrissey's Dog, (1:396/35)
name MOSHE SHULMAN, (1:278/402)
name NalA niNsJneG, (1:3800/6)
name Neal Feldman, (1:3406/5.0)
name Ned Fleming, (1:280/333)
name Neil O'Rourke, (1:134/67)
name noring@netcom.com (J, (1:102/890)
name Norman Meadows, (1:128/68)
name Odin, (1:102/890)
name Pat Kelley, (1:203/289)
name Patrick Humphrey, (1:106/113.0)
name Paul Boyer, (1:2607/112.0)
name Paul Feonic, (3:800/854.0)
name Paul Paradiso, (1:272/85)
name Peri Michaud, (1:142/232.0)
name Peter Arnall, (1:134/67)
name Peter Garner, (1:100/4.0)
name Peter Petersen, (1:350/401.0)
name Phil Birnbaum, (1:243/30)
name Phil Heaton, (1:133/208)
name Phil Morgan-ellis, (1:350/401.0)
name Philip Pace, (1:3800/6.66)
name Philip Pell, (1:299/299)
name Pixie, (1:347/36)
name Poison, (1:123/40)
name President Clinton, (1:3603/140.4)
name QMail v1.01, (1:124/9005)
name QUENTIN FAI, (1:358/17)
name Questor Thews, (1:387/57)
name Randronoth, (1:215/606)
name Reinhard Plaut, (1:115/439.11@fidonet)
name RICH ROGERS, (1:2618/
name Richard Quick, (1:100/4.0)
name Rick Bengivingo, (1:134/67)
name Rick Carroll, (1:3603/140.4)
name Rick Vanderzwaag, (1:247/133)
name rick@ofa.com, (null)
name Rob Bamford, (1:202/1312)
name Rob Fargher, (1:153/7715)
name Rob Vanderkam, (1:163/215)
name Robert Curry, (1:3603/140.4)
name Robert Curry., (1:3603/140.4)
name Robert Hunter, (1:205/88.0)
name Robert Knowles"
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