God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Evolution
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:37:11
--------
EID:456d 1cf104a0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 7881363e
CR> CR> For your information, I lean toward "theistic" evolution, that God
CR> CR> the evolutionary process. I also tend to believe that evolution
di
CR> MG>happen
CR> CR> pretty much the way the major theory explains it. However, I make
CR> CR> distinction between the claim to absolute knowledge and hypothetica
CR> CR> conjecture. In short, evolution is the best theory available to
da
CR> CR> it is NOT FACT. You seem to be unable to make this most basic
CR> MG>distinction.
CR> MG> You still have not named on thing.
You have still not named on things.
CR> CR> MG> No one has said that. The creation explanation was
CR> CR> MG>discarded when it could not explain the fossil record. Should
CR> CR> MG>the time come when the theory of evolution can not explain the
CR> CR> MG>facts of evolution then it will be modified or discarded.
CR> The creation explanation does not necessitate a young earth view, nor
does
CR> it necessarily rule out theistic evolution as your assumption seems
to
CR> presuppose.
Of course it requires a young Earth, one roughly 6000 years
old to be specific. Why in the world did the idea ever come into
existence were it not for that story? Who else invented it?
Upon what grounds was it invented?
Specifically what your imaginary old earth form of creation
requires is that every time there is a return of fossil forming
conditions then and only then do creation events occur.
Clearly, at one time there were fossil forming condition and
by jove there were creation events. Later fossil forming
conditions go away and creation ceases. Even later when fossil
forming conditions return by George that god of your shows a
burst of creative activity.
CR> MG> No evidence for it and it explains nothing other than when
CR> MG>you want no brainer explanation you invoke another miracle. That
CR> MG>certainly makes life exasy.
CR> What do you mean evidence. There can be no absolute proof of metaphysical
CR> realities.
Nor is there the slightest evidence that metaphysics is
anything other than an advanced form of mental masturbation. So
why would you bother bringing it up.
I find it a greater miracle to suppose that the cosmos simply
CR> happened than that a Creator guided the creation of the universe from
the
CR> initial Big Bang to our present state of affairs.
What greater miracle. Our universe is a natural result of
the existence of nothing. You are demonstrating Clarke's
observation that any sufficiently advanced science will appear to
be magic in another form. There is a clear explanation for the
existence of the universe and you insist upon calling it a
miracle.
Bow down and worship the idol rather than learn.
You appear to have some compulsion to invoke a god for what
you can not personally understand and no interest in completing
your understanding in that gods are more comforting.
CR> CR> MG> And if there is it would still leave creation explaining
CR> CR> MG>nothing about the fossil record. So why would you keep raising
CR> CR> MG>objections when you do not know the different between the theory
CR> CR> MG>and fact of evolution?
CR> CR> It you yourself who seems to be unable to make the distinction,
fri
CR> MG> I am speaking in the scientific sense not the way you are
CR> MG>confusing the terms.
CR> The facts require an interpretation,
They require nothing. But an explanation of known facts is
always of interest. One does not intemperate facts to fit a
theory. A theory stands or falls upon its ability to explain the
facts.
a paradigm for understanding different
CR> pieces of the puzzle. In this sense, no matter how well the pieces
fit,
CR> the theory of evolution is still a hypothetical explanation. IMO, it
is
CR> the best explanation to date of the facts available. However, theories
ar
e
CR> theories, not facts. Perhaps it is you who is confusing terms?
Of course they are different despite you constantly
confusing the terms. I will also note that creation is no
explanation of the facts unless you hypothesize that your god can
only create when fossil conditions are right and even then your
god is limited to making his latest creation look very much like
his last creation and is incapable of creating mammals with more
than four limbs and is limited in dozens of other ways.
It that is a god it must be an apprentice god just learning
the ropes of creation.
CR> CR> MG> It has already been observed. If you are planning to hang
CR> CR> MG>around on this world for a few million years you might see the
CR> CR> MG>kind of change you think evolution is talking about. In fact
yo
CR> CR> MG>will see genetic drift until species have become distinctly
CR> CR> MG>different.
CR> CR> Interesting speculation there, Matt. Perhaps you need to re-examin
CR> CR> exactly what current thinking is among the scholars within geology
CR> CR> paleontology before you make such sweeping generalizations.
CR> MG> I believe I am quite current. What might it be you are
CR> MG>talking about?
CR> The list you give in evidence of transitional fossils is highly
CR> interpretative evidence and is in no way absolutely conclusive.
Whose current thinking says that? Please be specific.
It does
CR> indicate that evolution may have taken place, but there is room for
doubt
CR> and continued investigation of the evidence as well as new fossil finds.
Whose current thinking says that? Please be specific.
CR> While I may not be as current as I might be on the subject, I am familiar
CR> enough with the discipline to know that no two paleontologists agree
CR> exactly on any transitional form.
Which are your referring to? Please be specific.
Also, the number of fossils used to
CR> substantiate such "evidence" is usually extremely limited.
Who is saying that? Please be specific.
Since you have a reading familiarity with all of the above
quotations will be greatly appreciated.
---
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--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Evolution
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:31:11
--------
EID:456d 1cf103e0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 7881363f
CR> This list is all interpretative information regarding supposedly
CR> transitional FOSSILS. You made the claim that evolution was going on
in
CR> the contemporary animal world where species have recently transformed
into
CR> other species. Let's see it, Matt. Otherwise, I must assume that you
are
CR> attempting to misdirect your response.
I have posted both the list of ancient ones (which was the
subject of this thread) and the list of recent ones which you now
pretend I said I would post.
You asked for transitional fossils in this thread and that
is precisely what I provided.
If you are now going to hold that the looks like a a duck,
waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck means it is only
INTERPERATED that is is a duck, fine with me. If you have
another meaning on interpretation please post it.
CR> Moreover, this list you give is old news and really doesn't prove beyond
CR> all doubt that these are transitional forms, though admittedly some
do see
m
CR> to be so. The point is that you claimed that this process is happening
CR> today and that you could provide proof. Let's see it.
What has been posted is evidence. Very good evidence to my
mind but you may reject it.
But as for today
======================================================================
Authors: Chris Stassen (stassen@netcom.uucp),
jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt),
Anneliese Lilje (anne@cco.caltech.edu),
L. Drew Davis (drewd@terminus.gatech.edu)
Title: A List of Observed Speciation Events
======================================================================
By Chris Stassen:
Here is a short list of referenced speciation events. I picked
four relatively well-known examples, from about a dozen that I
had documented in materials that I have around my home. These
are all common knowledge, and by no means do they encompass all
or most of the available examples.
Example one:
A strain of _drosophilia paulistorum_ developed hybrid
sterility after being isolated in the lab for only a
couple of years.
(Test for speciation: offspring are not fertile, like
horse vs. donkey.)
Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally
created incipient species of Drosophilia", _Nature_
23:289-292.
Example two:
Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of
the chromosome count, from the original stock. (Note that
polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race"
of the same species as the original stock, but they do meet
the criteria which you suggested.)
(Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the
original stock.)
Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in
_Epilobium angustifolium_ (Onaagraceae)", _Evolution_
21:713-719
Example three:
Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which
occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the
creature to the island.
(Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology.
It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been
performed with the parent stock.)
Stanley, S., 1979. _Macroevolution: Pattern and Process_,
San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41
Example four:
Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which
formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years
ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago.
(Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and
lack of natural interbreeding. These fish have complex
mating rituals and different coloration. While it might
be possible that different species are inter-fertile,
they cannot be convinced to mate.)
Mayr, E., 1970. _Populations, Species, and Evolution_,
Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348
==============================================================================
=
Anything else you would like?
---
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Judith Bandsma
Sub: Pig and Pepper
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:21:20
--------
EID:e312 1cf0aaa0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 cb6ad31c
On (14 Jul 94) Judith Bandsma wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> Remember, the use of pepper is the only blasphemy. Do not use it or
RC> allow it to be used. All will submit to the Great Dodecaheaded One!
JB> So that's why my mother would never allow pepper in the house!
JB> She never would explain it to us.
Either a proto-Dodecaheadist, or displeased by the Dutchess's cook.
JB> But can you explain the ban on coffee? That's the other great
JB> mystery that I would like explained.
Perhaps out of respect for Daisy, as coffee gives Her diarhea.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Small Steps
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:22:19
--------
EID:23d9 1cf0aac0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 ce4c274d
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to All...
PM> 1. We are here, and we are able to think.
You have yet to demonstrate that you can think critically, though
you do a fine job of evading certain questions (see following post).
PM> 2. There is (or is not) a Creator.
There are millions.
PM> 3. If yes, He reveals Himself unto us.
He, she, they. Look around you, Phil. If it's just a ghost that
you mean, however, then it appears to be rather the Created.
PM> 4. As the man, Jesus.
Of whom (assuming, as is not unreasonable, that such a person
actually existed historically) you know next to nothing but some
wild legends from an age of superstition.
PM> 5. Who volumtarily died in our place.
Like Mithras died in your place?
PM> 6. Who rose again.
A veritable jack-in-the-box god, popping up every time you crank
the handle of dogmatic repetition.
PM> 7. Who lives forever.
Along with the crew of the Flying Dutchman.
PM> 8. To make intercession for His own people.
While laughing uproariously as Gypsies and Jews are tortured and
killed by the millions. Oh, well. Since they are not his own
people, they may as well suffer and be killed, as he chuckles over
their plight, smiling divinely from above at their pain.
PM> 9. Who wants us "to prosper and be in health."
But really doesn't mind watching children starve to death.
PM> 10. Who is active, today.
Due to the heavenly aerobics program; not that such actions
amount to a hill of beans where it matters.
PM> 11. Who forgives and heals.
In absentia.
PM> 12. Who says, "Ask."
But what he really means, judging by the actions of those who
claim to listen to him, is "Evade all questions that are asked
of you, because make-believe is blissful, but ignorant."
PM> 13. Who gives us various gifts.
Such as smallpox.
PM> 14. Who is coming back.
With Elvis in a UFO, to inaugurate John F. Kennedy as World Tyrant
and Dictator of the Solar System.
PM> 15. Who will keep on giving us life.
In return for us giving him life by imagining him to exist.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Four questions for you
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:23:24
--------
EID:3e25 1cf0aae0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 9537e761
Here is my list of questions you evaded Phil, first posted June 29th:
1. Do you have any way whatsoever to distinguish your
idea of God from make-believe, Phil?
Any at all?
(asked April 30th)
2. Or can you - and I ask this in all seriousness,
Phil - can you in any way distinguish your notion of
"God" from that which exists only in imagination?
(asked May 2nd)
3. So explain to us please how one tells the difference
between a counterfeit ghost and a genuine ghost.
(asked May 3rd)
4. Do you have any way whatsoever of distinguishing
your god from that which is only imaginary?
How do YOU make any such distinction?
I don't see that there would be any problem
answering that, unless you do not in fact make any
such distinction.
(asked May 5th,
May 7th, May 11th)
It's about time for you to face these questions honestly, and answer.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Mere Blind Faith
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:24:31
--------
EID:5d35 1cf0ab00
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 93e86165
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> No wonder Christianity is rightfully said
RC> to be intellectually bankrupt.
PM> BLIND FAITH? Really?
Yes, Phil - really.
As Michael Hardy unwittingly expressed it so well not too long
ago, it is nothing but pure speculation; or as the unaffected can
clearly see, unevidenced belief based upon nothing more than old
superstitions and wishful thinking.
Blind and arbitrary, the hallmarks of religious faith.
The practical result in believers? Evasion and denial.
PM> Quote:
Just because you play "Simon Says" with some dead bitch of a
plagiarist (Ellen Gould White) means nothing. You thoughtlessly
quote her claims and assertions as if they were evidence that
your identical empty claims and assertions were true.
No wonder Christianity is said to be intellectually bankrupt.
EGW> The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear,
EGW> founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control.
The Hegemony of the Great Dodecaheaded One is not, as the Pepper
Fiend would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission,
an unreasoning control. Do you believe, Phil? Do you?
Your "God" and "Satan" are just as unevidenced as the GDO and the
Pepper Fiend. But blind faith in old superstitions has you bowing
and scraping in deference to these playthings without stopping
to think if they exist at all outside imagination.
EGW> It appeals to the intellect and the conscience.
The blind faith you exhibit by thoughtlessly and uncritically
swallowing fairy tales and pure speculation has NOTHING to
do with the intellect nor with the conscience.
EGW> "Come now, and let us reason together"
That is acceptable. Now answer the four questions I have for you.
PM> Robert, I know this is totally unacceptable to you, but
PM> I just had to state it for the lurkers.
Not to worry, the lurkers will quickly see your blind faith in
the mindless ramblings of a long dead plagiarist as evidence that
Christianity is, in some cases at least, intellectually bankrupt.
Furthermore, it is not _totally_ unacceptable. Let us reason
together, Phil. Take that to heart.
Now that you have returned to participate in the echo again, let
us address those questions you fled before, keeping reason first
and foremost in our mutual consideration. If you can provide any
substantial reason to think that your faith is not blind, do so.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: killing
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:25:52
--------
EID:0dcc 1cf0ab20
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 d43ad802
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to Martin Goldberg...
PM> The victims relatives might cast the first stone.
Jesus told you that, right? He whispered it in your ear.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: answers past due
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:26:33
--------
EID:1d41 1cf0ab40
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 4646a307
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to "Charlie Ray"...
> Or can you - and I ask this in all seriousness,
> Phil - can you in any way distinguish your notion of
> "God" from that which exists only in imagination?
PM> It's difficult for me to prove God to myself,
That's not what I asked. Kindly re-read the question.
Can you, Phil, can you even _distinguish_ your god from that
which exists only in imagination? Either you can do so
(in which case, I will be asking to see it done) or else you
can NOT.
Answer the question this time. Don't evade it, and don't
try to _change_ the question as a means of evading it.
PM> Very recently I am applying myself towards getting
PM> answers. Anyone care to help?
No one is able to answer the question for you. Either you
(Phil Morrison) can indeed distinguish your god from that which
exists only in imagination, or else you (Phil Morrison) cannot.
Now answer the question.
> So explain to us please how one tells the difference
> between a counterfeit ghost and a genuine ghost.
PM> This doesn't ring any bells. Perhaps another was asked it?
No, Phil, I asked YOU. And now I'm asking you again. You had
claimed that counterfeit ghosts don't disprove "genuine" ones.
> RC> How exactly do you distinguish this "Saviour"
> RC> from that which is only imaginary, Phil? Tell
> RC> me how.
>
> PM> Can't tell you, Robert.
PM> That I cannot tell Robert, doesn't mean I have no answer,
Then out with it! Your bluff is being called, right now.
PM> only that my answer won't be acceptable to Robert...
Anything is better than your obvious evasiveness. Whether or
not your eventual answer turns out to be but another example
of blind faith depends on you.
> You may send your response to the attention of Robert Curry,
> since it is I, after all, who is writing to your attention here.
PM> I guess Robert will see this.
The "I" above referred to me - didn't you see the origin line?
PM> And at present I have no good answer.
But tons of blind faith!
PM> Were I to say that the Spirit of God witnesses with my spirit,
Then you have not distinguished your Spirit Ghost from that which
exists only in the imagination, have you?
PM> that would no be acceptable to Robert, Charlie.
Oh, I accept your answer, Phil. And I see it for the unevidenced
blind faith that it is.
Play around with all the make-believe you wish, as is your right,
but don't cry when it is justly pointed out as blind faith.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Small Steps again
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:27:38
--------
EID:a51e 1cf0ab60
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 e96226cc
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to All...
[15 dogmatic statements deleted because they are repetitions]
PM> If they ARE true, I want Robert Curry to know this.
Then you'd best find some _reason_ to think them true. I don't
share your affinity for blind faith, Phil.
PM> And others, too. But Robert is a favorite, somehow.
Is it because I called your prophetess a dead plagiarizing bitch?
Santa Claus shows his mercy by not putting coal in your stocking.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: worthless hearsay
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:28:45
--------
EID:72d3 1cf0ab80
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 aff0fea0
On (15 Jul 94) Charlie Ray wrote to Mike Prather...
CR> Elvis has impersonators. Jesus appeared to 500 plus witnesses
CR> at one time and ascended into heaven before their very eyes.
That's nothing! Daisy has appeared to twenty thousand plus witnesses
at one time, and ascended to Pluto before their very eyes _and_ their
very telescopes.
All you are doing is repeating groundless hearsay, which, due to
the ease of making it up, is inadmissible as evidence.
Preachers lie today, so there's reason to think they could just as
easily lie a couple hundred or a couple thousand years ago.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Zaynab Richmond
Sub: Baha'i - Fire Tablet 1
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:29:53
--------
EID:c606 1cf0aba0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 04fca89f
On (14 Jul 94) Zaynab Richmond wrote to All...
ZR> I am a member of the Baha'i Faith and am here to answer any
ZR> questions you may have about it.
Oh, boy! First a Quaker, and now a Baha'i - we're really getting
some unusual religious representatives in here this month.
Still waiting for a Satanist to show up....
Oh, and welcome to HolySmoke. Better pray to your god for help.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Dead Gods
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:04:00
--------
EID:b531 1cf16080
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 30a0851c
On 07-14-94, at 02:20, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to CHARLIE RAY in
reference to Dead Gods
JM> CR> I take it then that you really are a minister? Or is this
JM> CR> simply another rhetorical device?
JM> I am a legally ordained minister in the Universal Life Church.
Hello John. You have me confused. I am unable to tell if you believe in
Jesus as the son of God or not. You claim to be a minister of the
Universal Life Church. Would you please tell me what the doctrines of
this church is?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:04
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--------
From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Bad Laws
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:15:00
--------
EID:1cd3 1cf161e0
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 5b7702e5
On 07-15-94, at 08:10, PRESTON SIMPSON wrote to DAVE OOSTERMAN in
reference to Re: bad laws
PS>So. Are you advocating total monogamy? If so, why should people
PS>whose belief systems do not conform to yours follow what you have to
PS>say?
Are you saying that if your wife wanted to have sex with other people
it wouldn't bother you?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:15
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Christian Hate Groups
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:20:00
--------
EID:817e 1cf16280
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 42944a71
On 07-15-94, at 08:10, PRESTON SIMPSON wrote to NATHAN DUTTON in
reference to Re: Christian hate groups
PS> CJH> What's UNnatural about them? If you god doesn't like fags,
PS> CJH> then why did he create them?
PS> CJH> Remember, certain animals also practice homosexuality as a
PS> CJH> population control mechinism.
PS> ND> God created the man not the immoral choice to become gay...
PS> ND> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
PS> ND> Homosexuality is a Choice. A immoral one......
PS>Your opinion is noted as being worthless. It is not supported by the
PS>facts. If you have facts that you wish to present to support your
PS>argument, you are invited to do so. If not, your opinion will remain
PS>as such and thus will have little, if any bearing on the rest of our
PS>lives.
I don't think the majority of the believers on this echo could care
less whether you think his opinion is worthless or not. We also could
care less about all your claims of facts and evidence.
Homosexuality is wrong, period. No gray area.
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:20
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: " Get Saved Today "
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:27:00
--------
EID:0fe4 1cf16360
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org b449d157
On 07-14-94, at 02:41, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to DOUG BREWER in
reference to Re: " Get Saved Today "
JM> There are a great many books on this subject, but one of the
JM> most concise is "The Mythmaker - Paul and the Invention of
JM> Christianity" by Hyram Maccoby and published by Weidenfield and
JM> Nicolson, ISBN 0-297-78805-1. That particular book contains
JM> enough references for you to do some extra research on the
JM> subject. I might also recommend "Jesus Within Judaism" by James
JM> Charlesworth and Michael Grant's "Jesus- An historians Review of
JM> the Gospels. I'll give you the ISBNs for those if you would like
JM> them.
John I don't understand why you tell us to read certain books against
religion and expect it to change our view. When believers reference
books to humanist, atheists, etc., i.e. "evidence" by Josh McDowell,
everyone screams he is debunked and unreliable. What is so special
about the two books and authors you spoke of above? What's to say we
don't think they're debunked as well? Where does anybody draw the
line?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:11
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From: Brian Beard
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:21:02
--------
EID:da15 1cf072a0
MSGID: 1:388/12.0 2e28250d
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Tyler A. Wunder to Nathan Dutton <=-
TWA> Who said that gay activists don't have God on their side? I know
Sorry, I just had to butt it. It seems to me impossible that God
would be on the side of gays. The Bible clearly states in
(1 Corn. 6:9-11) that homosexuality is a sin. Since God is is
against sin how against sin, tell me how can He be for it.
TAW> a few gay Christians -- I also know a few Christian bigots who claim
TAW> that homosexuals are evil or diseased or some such prejudicial
TAW> codswallop.
True that some Christians do think homosexuals are evil or desiesed,
but Romans 1:18-32 says that it is resulted from sin. If you have
accepted Christ into your heart all sins are frogiven, including
homosexuality.
... Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. (Thoreau)
--- ChainMail/JAM 1.02+
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From: LARRY SITES
To: ALL
Sub: ICR Luna(tics)
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:06:00
--------
EID:30b2 1cf0a0c0
In an attempt to rip off the 25th anteversity (sp?) of the moon landing,
the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) has produced a half hour radio
show called "Apollo, Quest for the Moon". Hosted by Jim Long and Vanessa
Hodge it includes comments from several people involved with the project
as
well as several ICR shills. First they make out Werner Von Braughn as a
bible believing creationist. This is the same Natzi that had no problem
serving Hitler in the 2nd world war.
Next, Pratt Johnson, one of the 3 engineers quarantined with the returning
astronauts, says that the moon rocks are basically the same as earth rocks.
The ICR's Gish mumbles that there was no danger of extratrestial germs
because earth is the only place of life. After astronaut Charlie Duke, now
a christian, waxes poetic about his now christian vision of the trip,
Walter Hersch claims there is no clock to set radiometric dating by as
there was no one there at the beginning of the universe.
Then the ICR's physicist from Grace College, Dr Deyone Deyon (sp?) takes
over. He says that perhaps radiometric dating is open to interpretation
because atoms can migrate into or out of rocks. And further that because
of
tidal breaking effect that the moon is 1 1/2 inch further from the earth
each year, that it would touch the earth only 1.4 billion years ago. He
goes on to explain that each of the scientific explanations for the moons
origin have problems and concludes that not only is the biblical
explanation for the moon as a sign and season indicator correct, but it
also contributes to the health of the earth through its tidal effect and
angular stabilization effect, thus it is an obvious evidence of design.
The ICR concludes by offering a free publication, "The Moon, Creation, and
Composition" by calling 1-800-743-6374, for more details.
Peace, Larry
___
* WR # 398 * I like ê-made Ò.
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From: Steve Lew
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Gay bashing
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:27:12
--------
EID:5cb2 1cf17360
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299420
JJ>SL>speaking. Apostle Paul wrote that homosexuality was not "normal".
He
JJ>SL>goes even further to say that oral sex is not "normal" since it is
JJ>SL>considered a form of homosexuality.
JJ> Where does Paul say these things?
I'll let you know when I go back to the Baptist Theological Seminary
tomorrow.
Cheers,
Steve
... Typical humans, you can always count on them to mess things up.
___
X TLX v3.30 X
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From: Steve Lew
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 'True Christians' at wor
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:56:14
--------
EID:86e6 1cf17700
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299aee
MG>MG>>Before you go on and on about your god, do you have any non
MG>MG>>biblical evidenc
MG> SL> First, I don't "go on about my God". I have not been to church in
MG>You obviously had something to say or I wouldn't have
MG>replied to it.
This is a laugh.
MG>"If you believe in god, do you have any real evidence to do
MG>so
Real evidence to my belief. Are you seriously asking me to show evidence
that I believe in our Lord Jesus Christ? As soon as you show me HOW to
do so then I will.
MG>or do you just believe because someone told you to?"
I DO have my own mind and can think for myself.
MG> SL> Yes, I know. I admitted yesterday that I meant to put gender and
MG> SL> not race. God does not mind whether or not other races
MG> SL> inter-marry.
MG>That's real big of him. he puts all the humans down here
MG>and doesn't care if some of them marry because they are a
MG>different color but prohibits because they are the same sex.
Once again, twisting the words around. I NEVER said God "prohibits" sex
with the same gender. He does not like it.
As for your questions pertaining to why is there sin, if God is so
powerful why doesn't He just get rid of it. God wants us to think for
ourselves and make our own choices, Heaven or Hell.
MG>To hell with him.
Lucifer, right ;)
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I am..the Doctor...whether you like it or not.
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From: Steve Lew
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 13yrs? Haha
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:00:16
--------
EID:0eb0 1cf17800
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299be0
MG>MG>>You're about 13 years old...right?
MG> SL> ROTFLOL!! Hardly. I'm getting a little long in the tooth. Double
MG> SL> that plus some and then you got it right.
MG>It's just that I couldn't imagine that any adult would
MG>believe this load of crap.
We all need SOMETHING to believe in. I believe there is a God and you
believe there is no God, am I correct?
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X M. Jackson seen at Kmart: SALE little boys pants 1/2 off!
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From: Steve Lew
To: Jack O'Neill
Sub: Hummmmm
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:14:18
--------
EID:fda5 1cf179c0
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299f2a
JO>SL> I was just wondering as to why the people in _Holysmoke_,
JO>SL> that do Not believe that there is a God, know so much about
JO>SL> the bible and God?
JO>It is _BECAUSE_ we know so much about the bible that we
JO>don't believe it. Your bible is riddled with factual errors
JO>and contradictions. It's claims fly in the face of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not really. As soon as I am finished compiling my list I'll post it here
for all to read. It pertains to "contradictions" in the bible by showing
that the are not contradictions. At this time I ask for anyone to please
send me their contradictions they have pertaining to the bible. I will
answer them in my post but if I cannot answer them then I shall state
so. My answers will not have any bible quotes or "the bible said so".
JO>observed facts. As far as your god thingy goes, there is
JO>no evidence to suppport it's existence outside of
JO>imagination.
And there is no evidence to say that He does not exist, is there.
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I can keep a secret. It's the people I tell that cannot.
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From: Steve Lew
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: sin to exist
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:44:20
--------
EID:f992 1cf17d80
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e29a634
QF>QF>>way, if there was a god,
QF> SL> And there is :)
QF>You are correct. There is a god. It's the Mutant Cosmic Star Goat. I'm
save
d
QF>Ok, maybe not, but what makes your god so much better than the Star Goat?
QF>They both have an equal amount of evidence for their existances.
And they both have the same amount of evidence of their non-existence.
My God is not better than your Star Goat, just an equal. Depending on
your faith in "your" god, you have your beliefs and faith. I in turn
have the same for my God. You believe that your god is the all powerful
one, great I happy for you. I as well, have the same feeling about my
God.
QF> SL> IT?! God is not an it, not a He, not a She, not black, nor white.
QF>Of course not. There are no gods.
^^
You forgot to put an IMHO there. Other wise, to coin a popular phrase
around here, prove it.
QF> SL> This is where Lucifer, Gods ex-right hand er..a..wing angel, comes
int
o
QF> SL> play. He needs sin to exist. Good points though :)
QF>Why would an omnipotent god need sin to exist?
I need to stop posting at two or three in the morning, I keep skipping
words or putting the wrong ones in. I meant Satan needs sin to exist.
Those two lines were in reference twords Satin.
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I still miss my ex-wife, but my aim is getting better.
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From: Kevin Lamonte
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Song
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:03:00
--------
EID:710b 1cf19860
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
JH> ND> JESUS LIVES THAT IS WHO!!!!!!!
JH> MG> Jesus is dead and Who is Tom Baker.
JH> KL> Hey, hey! Who is Sylvester McCoy and Peter Davidson and Tom
> KL> Baker. Three men, one Who....
JH> KL>
JH> Nay! Seven in the Mystical Number of Perfection!
> Behold...
JH> 1st William Hartnell
> 2nd Patrick Troughton
> 3rd Jon Pertwee
> 4th Tom Baker
> 5th Peter Davison
> 6th Colin Baker
> 7th Sylvester Maccoy
And on the third decade, He rose from the dead waters of Humanity
in the form of Homer Simpson, and the Evil shaketh'd to It's
roots...
(Amblin Entertainment is going to produce a new Who series to be
broadcast on Fox.)
TMFP!
Kevin Lamonte
---
þ OLX 2.2 þ Let no good deed go unpunished.
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From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Joel Donelson
Sub: Respond please...
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:52:02
--------
EID:3aaf 1cef6680
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E022A5
Thanks Joel!
Take Care,
Richard
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Check It Out...
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:55:27
--------
EID:65fa 1cef66e0
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E022A6
-> Not at all. But remember, those who make accusations of homosexuality
-> latent homosexuals themselves.
Is that your only weapon Preston, cause you sure use it quite often...
Sorry to burst your Bubble sweets but this Brother is pure man....
But then again I don't have to prove that to you....You're not my woman!
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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From: John Tait
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Superstitions
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:55:00
--------
EID:6d55 1cf176e0
q
-> I expect not. Just as I have found my own knowledge of rational
-> wisdom against such superstitions has been strengthened 10 fold by
-> listening to the babbling of the religiously deluded. If they can't
-> even remain faithful to
I do not see where christian beliefs are superstitious. They are based on
hist
orical facts. They are supported by personal observations. Granted they
step o
utside the laws of nature as we know them but who is to say we know them
all?
I also take exception to the statement that as a christian I have been molded
into a "tithing bread winning". If I was molded it was not by any human
but by
God. If I give it is because of what God has done for me. Have you ever
inves
tigated Chistianty from a personal level? You believe every you read or
hear.
--- QM v1.26/b
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: 'True Christians' at work again in Washington, DC.
Date: 16 Jul 94 12:42:00
--------
EID:c095 1cf06540
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e280f78
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0da
PID: GED 2.41
Wednesday July 13 1994, Nathan Dutton writes to C. J. Henshaw:
CJH>> Christians inspire hatered against fags.
ND> That is your view of Christianity. If you really followed
ND> Christ you would know that is not really true
'IS NOT!'
No amout of ranting, raving and footstamping on your part will change the
fact
s. Don't think so? Walk in front of a moving train and foam at the mouth
tha
t the train 'aint really there. Get back to us on how successful you are
in
making the train disapear.
Willfully deluding yourself is one thing, trying to force your delusions
on so
mebody else is somtething different again.
ND>> HE LIVES
CJH>> He's real....DEAD.
ND> HE LIVES
Is that all you can say when you are presented with something that insults
you
r mythologies?
ND>> ... "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it"
CJH>> Like not wearing mixed fibres? Or what about killing your enemy's
CJH>> children? (Pslam 137:9)
ND> Study the Bible!!!!
Answer the questions. According to the bible, Pi=3, bats are birds, insects
h
ave four legs and wearing two different types of cloth at the same time
is an
'abomination.'
ND> ... Psalm 14:1"The fool says in his heart,"There is no God."
Even the fool has more brains than a bible-worshipper.
C. J. Henshaw
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 12:50:01
--------
EID:551f 1cf06640
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e281355
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0db
PID: GED 2.41
Wednesday July 13 1994, Nathan Dutton writes to C. J. Henshaw:
CJH>> What's UNnatural about them? If you god doesn't like fags, then why
CJH>> did he create them?
ND> God created the man not the immoral choice to become gay...
Doesn't your bible state that your godlet created everything? Or can you
pick
and choose as to what it created?
CJH>> Remember, certain animals also practice homosexuality as a population
CJH>> control mechinism.
ND> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
So why did it create them?
You god has also determined that Judas died twice, and that bats are birds.
ND> Homosexuality is a Choice. A immoral one......
Present your evedence for these 'morals.'
There is substantinal evedence that being a fag most of the time isn't a
choic
e.
ND>> I don't want my son taught that garbage in school!!!!!!!
CJH>> Chances are, your son is in a private bible-banger school where fags
CJH>> aren't even admitted...
CJH>> Even so, you can't teach fag-ness any more than you can teach being
CJH>> black.
ND> You are born black, white or a certain race but you make the
ND> choice later in life whether you are going to lust after your
ND> same gender.
'You WILL do it MY way'. Sorry, you just don't get to say 'make it so.'
I fail to see what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom is any
of you
r concern. It certainly isn't any of my convern.
ND> Natural. Tell me how homosexuals reproduce.
Who's to say that have to reproduce? The population of the Earth is currently
something like four billion (4,000,000,000) people because of christian
teach
ings that you MUST reproduce.
How many more do you think the Earth can support? Or do you think that
'raptu
re' is so iminant that it doesn't matter?
ND> I mean everything in nature reproduces. rabbits, dogs, cats, humans.
Duhhh
ND> With your mentality, I guess it is safe to be excited the human race
ND> has made it this far...
You're basicly saying that if everybody was gay the human race would die
off.
That is true, but you're religous blinders are preventing you from seeing
tha
t life isn't in black and white.
CJH>> You are very arrogant to think that the bible has any meaning to
CJH>> unbelevers.
ND> IF so? Why are you getting so upset.
Stupidity bothers me.
ND> I believe it is none other than God is piercing you at the core of your
ND> corrupted beliefs...
C'mon godlet, pray for me. Make my day.
You're a real hypocrite to talk about currupted beleifs when the very foundati
on of your bible-worship was currupted by Saul for the perpose of wiping
out t
he religion based on a medieval carpenter who incited revolt against the
ocupa
tional armies of the Roman empire.
Everything you worship now is based on a lie.
CJH>> Just because I defend the rights of fags doesn't mean I am one.
ND> If you do not claim to be Gay I cannot understand you motives...
When the rights of one are abridged, the rights of all are threatened.
ND> ... JESUS WEPT
Is that supposed to mean something?
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Arse Hol(er)y
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:14:02
--------
EID:94aa 1cf069c0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2815b3
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DC1BB4
PID: GED 2.41
Saturday July 09 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to C.j. Henshaw:
DC> And an entry to the HS FAQ's hall of Fame?????
I'll consider it.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:01:00
--------
EID:791f 1cf07020
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2820b6
PID: GED 2.41
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
* Forwarded by C. J. Henshaw (1:250/820)
* Area : U_TALK.RELIGON.MISC (Usenet gated area)
* From : Gedaliah Friedenberg, 1:250/224.98 (Wednesday July 13 1994 16:17)
* To : All
* Subj : MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
(note: followups set to alt.messianic)
MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
(Dateline TEL AVIV) Rabbi Sholom R. Lifshitz, head of the educational
and anti-missionary organization Yad L'Achim, has come out with a
statement warning the public visiting the Western Wall in Jerusalem to
beware of missionaries disguised as Orthodox Jews with beard and peyos
[side locks - GF] who prey on Jews in distress at the Wall.
On 18-year-old boy, a resident of Jerusalem, told Yad L'Achim
activists the following story: "As I was praying by the Western Wall,
an Orthodox Jew with beard and peyos approached me and asked, 'Why are
you crying, what is the matter?' I told him my troubles and he
pursuaded me to come with him.
"It turned out that I was taken to Emanuel in the Old City next to the
Jaffa Gate, which is a church. There they attended to all my needs.
There is a young club there which preaches shmad (apostasty) and
Christianity."
Rabbi Lifshitz said the missionaries are distributing thousands of
copies of the New Testament throughout the country, and exploit the
ignorance of the new immigrants who are led to believe that it is the
authentic Tanach.
Rabbi Lifshitz added that now, during the summer, there is an increase
in missionary activities by thousands of tourists who exploit their
visit in Israel for "holy missionizing."
Gedaliah
-=-Gedaliah Friedenberg-=-
P. O. Box 334 Ohr Somayach Yeshiva friedenb@egr.msu.edu
Monsey, NY 10952 gfrieden@nyx10.cs.du.edu
My opinions are usually shared by Ohr Somayach Yeshiva, but I am not a
representative or spokesman of the Yeshiva in any way.
-+- uugate 0.34 (OS/2 2.11)
+ Origin: Michigan State University (1:250/224.98)
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
I'm left wondering if there's any limit to the underhandedness of Christian
fu
ndamentalists...
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 17:59:01
--------
EID:dc2f 1cf08f60
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e28598d
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0b987a9
PID: GED 2.41
Friday June 24 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> SOME TEACH there is to be no second coming of the Lord,
How can 'he' come twice if 'he' never existed at all?
MK> God's judgments, listed in the book of Revelation (chapters 6-18),
Quoting scripture at unbelevers is like quoting _Salem's Lot_ to people
who do
n't beleve in vampires. Don't beleve me? Would some quotes from the Q'ran
co
nvert you into a Muslem?
MK> How Soon Will the Rapture Take Place?
One spelling mestake here. It's 'RUPTURE' not 'RAPTURE.'
P.S.
Only a brainless fundi would contiune to spout religous tracts after they
wher
e asked, nay, TOLD not to. This activity has earned you the following discrip
tion in the HOLYSMOKE rollcall list:
Name Alignment Description
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[cut]
Margurete Kendall fundi twit Doesn't have a clue. Recently posted
500kB of fundi tracts. Forced to apologise
by moderator. Still up spewing scripture
like a busted shitpipe. However, it is only
posting fewer tracts at a time.
[cut]
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: DI&BOND.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:05:02
--------
EID:dc58 1cf090a0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285c13
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0b987b1
PID: GED 2.41
Friday June 24 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> Demonic Influence & Bondage
Oh no! How terrible.
MK> Getting Free-->><<--Staying Free
Next you'll be telling us about the demon under your bed.
MK> The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me... the Lord hath anointed me to
MK> preach...
Even where it isn't welcome, it would seem.
MK> Many people today live in prison. The cells may vary, the jailers
MK> face may be different, but the result is still the same.
Chances are, the prison is a chruch, and the jailer is the pastor or minister.
MK> They are bound by a force that they cannot control.
The threat of 'heavenly retribution' if they don't tithe each week.
MK> They cannot touch the force nor can they see it, but it is real.
'You can't see or feel the invisible elf that is beside me, but if you don't
d
o as I say, he'll clobber you over the head with a base-ball bat.'
Tell me the difference between the two statments.
MK> It may be a chemical dependence, such as alcohol, heroin, cocaine or
MK> tobacco. It may be lust, envy, jealousy, gluttony, hatred, fear or
MK> mental torment.
By mental torment, you must mean the Christian church.
MK> This force is not a respecter of persons, it attacks at will,
MK> sometimes rendering its victims helpless.
Like those who pay %60 percent of their income to their ministers?
MK> Man for centuries has tried to control it.
Sending people back to 'Jesus' is a very popular method used by Christians
to
attempt to control those who they think are controlled by their 'Satan'
diety.
Satan, being non-existant, doesn't worry me. Those who beleve in him, however
, DO concern me.
MK> This force is the power of Satan.
Only Christians beleve in this 'Satan.'
MK> The majority of people today are totally ignorant of Satan and the
MK> evil spirits, demons, that are under his control.
The majority of people today are totally ignorant of the lucky charms elf
and
the evil spirits, demons, that are under his control.
MK> By and large, unsaved people are influenced by demon spirits.
'If you aren't Christian, you a Satanist.'
How loving of your all-loving god. Jesus, save me from your followers.
[Remainer of your post deleted to save $$$$.$$]
MK> Father, I pray for those reading this tract desiring deliverance from
MK> the bondage the enemy of their soul has put them in. I rebuke every
MK> foul spirit and every demon that has tried to-+- TBBS v2.1/NM
Did Satan truncate your message because he didn't like what you are saying?
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: SIGNSOF.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:16:03
--------
EID:7f16 1cf09200
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285c87
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0c34d65
PID: GED 2.41
Saturday June 25 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> A recent article, appearing in the Duluth Sunday paper for July 18th
has
MK> provoked this little study. It had to do with a secret meeting of the
MK> Bilderberg group of about one hundred men, the super-rich, liberal
MK> intellectuals, world-prominent political figures, etc., in Vermont last
A
pril.
For humanitys sake, PLEASE `go back to Jesus' soon.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: Dupes again
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:19:04
--------
EID:0f9f 1cf09260
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285d5e
PID: GED 2.41
A system in net 116 (Nashville, TN) is dumping dupes here again. This system
is responcable for the four scripture tracts that appeared under Margurite
Ken
dall's name.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Fundy-man buys a clue...
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:11:05
--------
EID:3c7b 1cf0b160
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e28938b
REPLY: 1:13/220 5f0f4306
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Doug Brewer writes to Ryan Shaw:
DB> I was wondering, if evolution is true, where in this world is a creature
DB> that is still in transition?
Evolution hasn't stopped; we're ALL in transition.
DB> Where is a half man-half ape, or something similiar?
Does evolutionary theory predict that there SHOULD be one?
DB> I also wonder if you are aware that Charles Darwin himself said in
his
book
DB> that, "..to assume that something as complex as the human eye came about
by
DB> random chance is, at best, absurd."
It's your strawman that evolution is random. It isn't.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: 'Jews for Jesus' properganda sheet
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:23:06
--------
EID:e100 1cf0b2e0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2899f7
PID: GED 2.41
Here's a type-up of something a 'Jews for Jesus' conversionist was speading
ar
ound here:
===
[Front cover]
[Several roadsigns]
SIGNS
[Page 1]
SIGNS are VERY IMPORTANT!
without them we would not know...
where we are.
[Picture depicting gormless-idiot in car looking at a 'entering LOWVILLE'
sign
]
or where we are GOING,
[Picture of aforementioned idiot in car stopping VERY QUICKLY opon seeing
a 'S
TOP you are going the wrong way' sign.]
or how to GET there.
[Same idiot looking at a steep-hill warning roadsign]
or if we should go some-place else.
[Idiot looking at a 'closed' sign]
[Page 2]
Signs are also importent to tell us...
how we are FEELING or how we SHOULD be feeling.
[Idiot looking at his tempriture]
or how we should BEHAVE in a certain place.
[Idiot in library, looking at 'QUIET' sign]
signs also tell us about the WEATHER.
[Weathermap of the U.S. ONLY, which is strange, considering this junk is
being
spread in Canada...]
or of COMING DANGER.
[Idiot falling face first onto wet floor; 'Slippery when wet sign on wall']
[Page 3]
We spend a lot of time learning how to READ signs...
But gow many of us HEED signs?
[Car speeding through crosswalk]
JESUS [Fish sign here] said that we know how to read the signs in NATURE...
But we don't know how to read the signs in LIFE-- that GOD is trying to
get a
message TO US. [Err, why would an omnipotent god have to TRY?]
For some it will be a sign of WARNING about coming danger,
to others it will be a sign of HOPE and PEACE.
Still others will see it as a sign to help them get BACK HOME after being
lost
.
[Page 4]
Why not take this pamphlet as a SIGN that...
[Sign of 'G O D wants to talk TO YOU]
"HOW GREAT ARE HIS SIGNS, and how mighty are His wonders. His kingdon is
an e
verlasting kingdon, and his deminions is from generation to generation"
daniel
4:3
"And the WORD became flesh, and dwent among us, and we beheld His (Y'shuua's)
glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Farther" john 1:14
[Page 5]
Signed, JHAN MOSKOWITZ
JEWS FOR JESUS
===
Any group who calls themselves 'JEWS FOR JESUS' must be highly fucked up...
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: LIBERAL GULF WAR CRAP
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:44:07
--------
EID:33fc 1cf0b580
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e289b59
PID: GED 2.41
KW>> Liberals abhor the use of force, particularly when it is successful,
KW>> for success confirms and advances the nobility of our military."
KW>> from "See, I Told You So" by Rush Limbaugh. Pocket Books. 1993.
Forget about 'Thou shalt not kill?'
Here' read this:
Ä Local Storage (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LOCAL Msg : 150 of 178
From : nyt@blythe.org 1:343/70.10 Sat 02 Jul 94
11:4
7
To : All
Subj : Limbaugh Receives Flat Earth Award
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ .MSGID: 1:343/70.10
0000
4985
.PID GIGO+ sn 5 at helix vsn 0.99w32
.Message-Id:
From: nyt@blythe.org (NY Transfer News)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 14:47:35 -0500 (EST)
Jun 30, 1994 by johnwp@igc.apc.org
Ozone Action, Inc. PRESS RELEASE
1621 Connecticut Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20009
For Immediate Release:
Contact: Susan Pollack (202) 265-6738
June 29, 1994
RUSH LIMBAUGH AWARDED FLAT EARTH AWARD FOR BAD SCIENCE
Washington, D.C. - Today, Ozone Action awarded author and talk
show host Rush Limbaugh the first Flat Earth Award for promoting
the worst science since people thought the earth was flat.
Although Limbaugh qualified in a wide range of areas, his
statements about stratospheric ozone depletion, one of the most
serious environmental threats to life on the planet, won him this
award.
Limbaugh has gained notoriety for effectively misleading the
public on environmental issues. He takes the uncertainty that is
inherent in the natural sciences and uses it to erode confidence
in environmental and health regulations.
Limbaugh became the Master Confusionist on ozone depletion with
his broad-based and unfounded attacks on "junk scientists" and
"environmentalist wackos" in his talk shows and in his recent
book, The Way Things Ought to Be. Much of what Limbaugh says
about ozone depletion is based on information taken from the late
Dixie Lee Ray's books Trashing the Planet and Environmental
Overkill. Her books rely heavily on articles by Rogelio A. Maduro
for her conclusions about ozone depletion. Maduro is an associate
editor of 21st Century, a magazine published by Lyndon Larouche's
organization. Maduro is the co-author of The Holes in the Ozone
Scare which one leading atmospheric scientist described as "the
single best compilation of all the incorrect and out-of-date
information ever issued on ozone depletion."
"While people were sitting on the beach during the summer of 1993
reading Rush Limbaugh's book, they were getting burned in more
ways than one," said John W. Passacantando, Executive Director of
Ozone Action. Passacantando added, "NASA scientists were
measuring record ozone depletion over the United States and people
were being exposed to record amounts of ultraviolet radiation,
while Limbaugh was broadcasting that the ozone scare was a hoax.
Limbaugh runs the bad science laundry machine, taking information
from the least credible sources in the country and spinning it so
that it seems like a credible alternative viewpoint. Limbaugh
falls flat with his listeners on ozone. Many Americans are
concerned about the higher risks associated with ozone depletion
and the National Weather Service just introduced a daily
forecasting system to warn people about their risk level of
radiation exposure from the sun."
Ozone Action is a nationwide non-profit dedicated to informing
society about the human and environmental harm caused by UV
radiation and to halting the destruction of the ozone layer
through public education and activism.
END
--
+ 212-675-9690 NY TRANSFER NEWS COLLECTIVE 212-675-9663 +
+ Since 1985: Information for the Rest of Us +
+ GET INFO from ftpmail%transfr@blythe.org +
+ e-mail: nyt@blythe.org info: info@blythe.org +
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--------
From: Ollie North
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Preachers
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:53:08
--------
EID:86c4 1cf0b6a0
MSGID: 1:250/820 2e289d89
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DA1BC9
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to Ollie North:
ON>> 25,000 each, plus a pardon if you become President and I'm caught.
DC> How about 125,000, a full pardon for all current crimes, plus
DC> any crimes yet to be discovered, but only if I get elected!
Deal.
YOU ARE UNDER ARREST! You have the right to remain silent. Anything you
say
can and will be used against you. You have the right to a lawyer.
Ooops.
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Questions
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:55:09
--------
EID:3c5c 1cf0b6e0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e289df0
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DA1BCB
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to C. J. Henshaw:
PS>> Face it, without the Catholics, there would be no Christianity.
CJH>> They should be tried for crimes against humanity in abstentia.
DC> How about we crucify their god in effigy?
Errr, how do you crucify something that doesn't exist? I'll settle for
droppi
ng incenduries on the vatican't.
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Judith Bandsma
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:00:00
--------
EID:7f8e 1cf03000
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1f9
JB> DOESN'T CONTRADICT ITSELF? Thank you very much for my laugh of the
JB> day. All 4 of the major Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John)
JB> contradict not only each other but themselves in places. Then there
are
JB> the writings of Paul which contradict the teachings of Jesus. That's
JB> just a small portion of the NT. The OT is even worse.
JB> Subsidiary giggle....the fact that this message comes from a BBS
JB> system named for a Greatful Dead tune.
Please provide me with the chapters and verses that you believe are in
conflict with each other. I have read the Bible all my life, and though
I
am not a "Bible scholar", I am not aware of any contradictions.
I think you are making an empty claim; and I'd like you to prove it.
... The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Psalms 14:1
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:06:01
--------
EID:5498 1cf030c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fa
CL> ok, where in bible can you find a word about viruses?
If you will be specific as to what you are asking, I'll look it up. I mean
are you refering to the cause of viruses, the cure for them, what???
I will be happy to spend the time to research anything you want to know.
I
am not saying that the Bible is going to give the secret formula for the
cure for AIDS or something. It does talk about why we get these sicknesses,
and how to avoid them. It also talks about healing....
I must say, that of all the people I talk to, you are my favorite. You
haven't sunk to becomming abusive yet, and I appreciate that.
Believe it or not, I only have the best interest of these people at heart.
So, the abuse and profanity is difficult for me to put up with.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to your reply....
Doug
... All scripture is given by inspiration of God. II Tim. 3:16
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:11:02
--------
EID:e72a 1cf03160
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fb
CL> there have been many liars in the churches for the duration of
CL> history, then, only people you may call true christians were just few
CL> saints, but here's my point, it isn't necessary to be a christian to
CL> be a saint, instead of the bible, you just use your own ethics,
I understand that. It is NOT necessary to be a Christian to be a decent
person. With that I agree.
Christians are simply people who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour; and
chosen to *TRY* to live their lives according to scriptural principles.
But, my statement still remains true. Whether you believe the Bible or
not does not negate the fact that it is the final authority on what is or
is
not a *Christian* action. It is the yardstick for our faith.
The Bible clearly states that we are to tuen the other cheek, love one
another. and so on and so on.... So, anyone who is performing acts of
violence, and calling themselves a Christian is a liar; and I would not
want the actions of that person to be used as an example of my faith.
Doug
... He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 John 4:8
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:17:03
--------
EID:0f00 1cf11220
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fc
I am going to look up the answers to you questions, so I can respond with
scripture. i will get back to you as soon as I have them all. Probably
a day or two.
By the way, those were good questions; but I already know there is a
scriptural answer for most of them. The others we just have to answer with
supposition, and believe that there was a purpose. It is arrogant of us
to
assume that we should be able to understand every thought that runs through
the mind of God. He passed on what he wanted us to know; the rest I'll
ask
him in person one day.
I'll do my best to answer you. You also must understand that if i can't
answer a question, that doesn't mean that there isn't an answer; it just
means
that I don't know it...
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:22:04
--------
EID:b9b5 1cf112c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fd
I'm afraid I must humbly admit that I have no answers for your questions.
You are dealing with an area that I have little understanding of. I will
pass your questions on to a local Bible College; if they respond to me,
I'll
let you know what they said.
Before you gloat, and call me names, let me say that I freely admit having
lost this particuliar battle. I simply don't know.
I feel as though I am making a mistake by entering into these areas anyway;
because I am so poorly educated in math and science. I ought to be talking
about things I have a thourough understanding of (Of course, that was your
line wasn't it...).
Anyway, I'll see what I can do.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:26:05
--------
EID:e3ef 1cf03340
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fe
SS> There are plenty of us in here that have read the bible and
SS> individuals like John Musselwhite and Simon Ewins are very knowledgable
SS> of the bible and _other_ sources. You have stated that you have done
SS> virtually no reading outside of the Bible.
SS> Now, how can *you* argue against something that you have never read?
I never stated that. In fact I rarely read the Bible anymore. I do read
about 1 book a week, topics vary tremendously. I have a working knowledge
of the Bible; but I am not a BIble scholar. I simply have faith for that
which I do not already know.
Doug Brewer
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:28:06
--------
EID:b9b5 1cf03380
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1ff
SS> You can use anything you want, but what you present will be examined
SS> critically by others.
That's the beauty of it, they're not my words. So be as critical as you
like. I assume you're prepared to tell me that these people have no idea
what they're talking about; in spite of their credentials....
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Bill Ward
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:28:07
--------
EID:d2f2 1cf11380
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a200
BW> I was trying to point out the logical flaws in your stated position,
I
BW> guess I didn't do to well, as you still seem to think that you can
BW> have your cake and eat it too. Ah well everyone has their own world
BW> picture, and tis rather futile to try to impose our picture onto the
BW> mind of another. I'm sorry to say that I do not believe in GOD[s], or
BW> your Bible and therefore would have serious problems accepting it's
BW> Judeo/Christian system of morals and ethics. For example; what is
BW> "moral depravity"? thats a slippery moral ethical question that I don't
BW> have an answer for, but Christians say that they do have an answer,
God
BW> told them, and they wrote it in the Bible. I have no evidence as to
the
BW> veracity of this claim, but I am supposed to accept it via "faith".
But
BW> my own intellect insists on debateing these issues of "morality" and
I
BW> can't see how Jack wanting to put his penis in John's anus, and John
BW> wants Jack to do it, is anybody else's buisiness. You or I might be
BW> personaly disgusted by this behavior, but where is the the proof that
BW> your or my personal moral code is inherantly superior to those who do
BW> indulge in these things? My own moral and ethical code simply say's
"do
BW> unto others as you would have them do unto you", this is not from a
BW> religious point of view, simply from a rational point of view. I do
BW> not wish to have you restrict my freedom, so therefore I don't try to
BW> restrict yours.
BW> Come, let us reason together.
I liked this post better than your first one.
Here is the bottom line. People get hung up[ on the rules and regulations
and neglect to see the real deal. Christianity is about Salvation. Period.
The desire to adhere to the rules comes naturally to those who truly love
God.
We are not about forcing anything on anyone. We just point out that the
world is in trouble, and we have the answer.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Joseph Perez
Sub: Re: Scientific support for Christianity
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:36:08
--------
EID:89a9 1cf03480
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a201
JP> I thought I already had! Look, I agree with the
JP> scientific model and I also believe in God, but I just don't see that
JP> your points prove any of the claims you make for them. That's not to
JP> say that I don't agree with you, just that I think you need to polish
JP> your definations a bit more.
I was merely making a statement to people who say that science does not
support the existence of God; by quoting a scienctist who says different.
That was all. I proved, in the words of a scientist, that some scientists
through their work, have come to a belief in God.
However, any polish you'd like to add, would be appreciated.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: MIKE PRATHER
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:38:09
--------
EID:c0a9 1cf034c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a202
MP> What you feel is emotion. I don't deny the existence of emotion. I
MP> challenge you to show evidence that the emotion you feel comes from
MP> some power outside of yourself.
What is the source of emotion? How does a random, protoplasmic organism
begin to "love" it's mate? What is the source of love and hate, etc...
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Answers to your questions
Date: 17 Jul 94 05:20:10
--------
EID:22b8 1cf12a80
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a203
Okay, I'm going to try to answer the ones that I can answer quickly; and
I will continue to try to find the answers to the others. I hope that these
answers will help you to see that God does have a purpose for everything.
I am praying that through our dialogue, at some time, you will come to
accept Jesus as your Saviour. I think that if you were to do that, then
alot
of the things you question would be made clear to you through the Holy Spirit.
Regarding that; I do believe in the Trinity. In the same way that we are
physical, mental, and spiritual; I believe that God is three in one. This
is consistent with the scriptures stating that man was made in the image
of
God. In this example, God the Father would be the mind; Jesus would be
the
body; and the Holy Spirit would be the spirit of God's being. When you
view
it in that light, the Trinity is not hard to accept or understand.
But, let me get to your questions:
1) Why did God kill everyone with the Flood except Noah and his family?
- Genesis 6:5-8 "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of Man was great on
the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil
continually. And Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and
it grieved him in his heart. And Jehovah said, i will destroy Man, whom
I have created, from the earth--from man to cattle, to creeping things,
and to fowl of the heavens; for I repent that I have made them. But Noah
found favour in the eyes of Jehovah."
2) Why did God regard some animals as filthy (actual word was unclean)
- I don't know, but I will try to find someone who is more knowledgeable
than I am to explain it to me.
3) Why did God kill the first-borns of all Egyptians?
- Exodus 4:22-23 " And thou shalt say to Pharoah, Thus saith Jehovah:
Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to thee, Let my son go, that
he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill
thy son, thy firstborn."
See.. Pharoah refused to let God's son go, so the penalty for that was
that it cost him his son (or the firstborns of all his nation).
4) Why did God renounce Lucifer....?
Lucifer did not challenge God for an instance. he led 1/3 of the Angels
in a revolt against God, and for that he was cast out. He was a traitor,
and he was treated as such...
5) Did the animals get kicked out at the same time as Adam and Eve?
- The Bible does not conclusively say. That is something we assume. The
Bible des say that God told Adam that the earth would be cursed for his
sake. So, we assume that includes the animal kingdom.
Also, regarding the gene pool problem... The Bible does not say that
Adam and Eve were alone. It says, male and female created he them... then
in Chapter 3 in describes the creation of Adam and the fact that he had
no
mate. So, it is reasonable to assume that God made others, and then he
made
Adam in his image. This would also account for why the Jews are "God's
people". Perhaps they are the direct descendents of Adam??? This is
just a thought, I don't know for sure.
6) Why is God so defensive.....
- God does not challenge others to defy him. The Bible says in several
places, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God". He only ever encourages
people to test him. he says, "Try me, and see if I will not pour you out
a blessing...." "I am the Lord thy God. Is anything to hard for me?"
He never encourages rebellion. In fact, that was the purpose of the Flood,
the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah (sp), and various other times when
God punished societies.
7) Why doesn't God do something good for us?
- Well, who exactly is "us"?
If you mean the U.S.- we have had the most economically, technologically,
and medically advanced society in history. We have freedoms that the
entire world is jealous of. I believe that is because of two things.
1) we were founded on Christian principles, and as they are being destroyed
so is our society... 2) We support Israel, and we are blessed for it.
If you mean you and I- God has healed my body. He has blessed my family
financially. He has brought peace to my parents marriage which nearly
ended in divorce, and which they both will admit turned around when they
started going back to church and serving God.
As for you; he has provided you with a chance to find peace and salvation.
He has sent his son to die for you, and to be raised from the dead so that
you would not have to die. AND he sent me to you to give you the info.
If you were to accept Jesus, things would begin to happen in your life.
This I know from experience. See, Christianity is not an idea, it's a
lifestyle. It is the guiding force behind the lives of millions.
You scoff at it now; but I pray that one day you will come to see the
truth that is being presented to you. God loves you, and he CAN make a
difference in your life.
8) Where does the Bible say that Jesus is God?
- All over the place!!! But, I will cite two. If you want to look up more
I'll be happy to give you references.
1) John 1:1 "In the beginnig was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God". - the Word is a name for Jesus
2) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten]
Son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish, but have everlasting
life".
9) Why are there so many rich preachers?
- For the same reason that there are rich people in any other field. They
do their job well. Most preachers received a percentage of the offerings
as a salary, since preaching is their full-time job. As their church grows
bigger, so does the offering, and so does their salary.
This is not to say that there are not preachers who steal the money (ie.
Jim Bakker) but they are the exception, not the rule.
And why shouldn't God's people be rich? If my father made the world, and
all that is in it; shouldn't I be able to have as much of that as I can
come by in a legal and moral fashion? Call it an inheritance....
I'm sure you will have a response, and it probably won't be the one
I'd like to see. But, I remain here for the purpose of talking to you.
And I mean YOU. I think I am here (on this echo) for that reason. The
others are just distractions; but I believe that I was lead to this echo
to bring the Word to you Chris. So, I'm gonna keep trying. I hope you
uderstand.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:03:12
--------
EID:cba1 1cf10060
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e28ad4e2
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 2e26b50c
PID: GE 1.02+
Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
PS> Margie, I'm afraid you've been warned before about posting
PS> tracts in here. I thought you said you'd "learned your
PS> lesson" and were going to "change your attitude."
You forgot that members of the Christian cult are forgiven for their
mistakes. That does not, however, mean that they will not repeat
them. Some belief system. Duh! I should become a Christian murderer.
(Pun intended). Then I could murder Christians, be forgiven, and
_still_ go to the fantasy known as heaven.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: The Cosmic Star Goat
Sub: Lookie!
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:34:54
--------
EID:315f 1cf16c40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a902
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e2796fd
PID: GE 1.02+
The Cosmic Star Goat wrote in a message to All:
TCSG> Steve Winter
TCSG> Sysop, PreRapture BBS
TCSG> Owner and Operator of the PRIME Network
Hey, Mr. Goat. Have you ever considered joining the PRIME Network
just for a couple of weeks? It wouldn't cost that much and a goat
like you could raise some hell (so to speak).
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Mr. Pat, the fake...
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:38:06
--------
EID:31b7 1cf16cc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a903
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e27b31f0
PID: GE 1.02+
Marguerite Kendall wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
MK> I know, Pat Robertson paid a surprise visit to your
MK> television set, with a special invitation for you to listen,
MK> only you refused it.
MK> He had a special message for you, only you turned it down.
I saw one of his messages once. He held some money in his hand and
prayed to God to increase the amount of donations coming in. Have
you ever bothered to do some research on this guy? Maybe you should
see where all the donations are going.
MK> * Origin: The Shephard's Board; Alexandria, VA (1:109/388)
^
JFC!
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Charles Baldo
Sub: Creation of life
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:40:36
--------
EID:ec7a 1cf16d00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a904
REPLY: 1:2613/206 629795e2
PID: GE 1.02+
Charles Baldo wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
CB> Religion is mans relationship with God. I beleive Shinto or
CB> possibly Taoist See God in trees also. God is everywhere
CB> including trees. If you find him there then hey.. God bless
CB> the trees and enjoy your relationship with them.
Religion is a set of beliefs, not a relationship. Your relationship
with your god may be a part of your religion but it is not your entire
religion.
God does not live in the Douglas Firs of Oregon. They are trees, they
are huge, they are green, and they are beautiful. The wind also makes
nice, soothing sounds when blowing through their branches.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: You, Johnny.
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:14:04
--------
EID:d7cd 1cf181c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e0
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA457F64
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Ray Talley:
JP> Thanks for sharing your (worthless to me) opinions.
How come everytime someone pokes a hole in anything you say you
reply with something as worthless as this?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: consider this
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:15:10
--------
EID:cd4c 1cf181e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e1
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA458B9B
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
JP> Do animals demonstrate any concern for morality ?
JP> Do you think wolves ever debate the morality of eating
JP> sheep ?
Do you think humans every consider morality when eating cows,
pigs, chickens, and/or sheep?
JP> If you mean Creatorless "evolution",
JP> then all of life is just a big accident.
It is possible, no?
BTW bumblebutt, evolution has nothing to do with creation. When
are you going to start to grasp this fact?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: thermodynamics
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:19:24
--------
EID:1730 1cf18260
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e2
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45B596
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
JP> Matter over time does the opposite of what it took to Create the life
JP> and the universe we now observe.
HP> Bzzzt. There's plenty of ordered energy left in the universe
HP> yet.
HP> Take a look at that big hydrogen lamp in the sky, that's some of it.
JP> Non sequitur.
Are you:
A) Dumb
B) Stupid
C) Ignorant
D) All of the above
Which one is it?
You were debunked with the fact that the sun exists. You replied
with a "nothing." Why do you continue to deny any arguments that
contradict your beliefs?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: JFK and JFC
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:22:52
--------
EID:bb1f 1cf182c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e3
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45C051
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Mike Hill:
JP> I predict/prophecy in Jesus name that: John F.Kennedy will publicly
JP> reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the final,
JP> supreme "beast" of the Revelation. This fulfillment will confirm the
JP> truth of Jesus Christ and His Revelation.
Does it bother you that JFK lies in a tomb and was declared dead by
a medical doctor? The shit that you continue to spew is so unbelievable
that I have a hard time believing that you are even for real. If you
are, then this is really, really sad.
BTW, when is JFK coming back and where is he hiding?
---
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--------
From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:30:46
--------
EID:21b3 1cf183c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e7
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45FCCF
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
DC> ... "Faith is not wishing to know what is true." -Nietzsche
JP> How long WAS Nietzsche raving insane before he died ?
JP> Just asking. WBW, John
Have you ever considered to take a look at yourself, fundy-man?
Anyone that believes JFK is alive and that JFK is also satan
needs to be checked into the nearest hospital.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Reply
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:27:32
--------
EID:d97d 1cf18360
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e5
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA46DFCE
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Martin Goldberg:
JP> This "fundy" doesn't care what the laws made by men
JP> are.
So you totally disregard the laws of the United States?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Miracles
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:28:32
--------
EID:85de 1cf18380
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e6
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA46EAFA
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Matt Giwer:
JP> God created life, which I appreciate.
Do you have any proof? Please present it if you do. Thanks
in advance.
---
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From: David Strickland
To: Frank Waring
Sub: Deception
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:22:54
--------
EID:c851 1cf0aac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.666@fidonet.org 2e284ff1
REPLY: 1:123/44 53bd4eec
Frank Waring Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom to All,
About Deception.
FW> These so-called bible prophets, are nothing more than Zionist
FW> stooges. They would like you to believe, that the Pope is the
FW> antichrist, when in fact, the Jew is --
FW> 1jn.2:22,jn.8:44,rv.2:9,3:9. This is all part of the
FW> International Zionist Conspiracy, to divide The Church, and
FW> take-over America.
Fuck, YET another CONSPIRACY theory! Don't you guys have anything better
to d
o with yourselves than to sit around and dream up half-assed conspiracy
theori
es?
David
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G0214
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: The Cosmic Star Goat
Sub: Lookie!
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:52:16
--------
EID:004e 1cf1be80
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2e29c471
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e2796fd
PID: GED386 G0614 1554US1
Saturni dies July 16 1994, Dixit The Cosmic Star Goat ad All:
TCSG> Look what I stumbled across in a Trade paper....yes, it is legit
TCSG> PreRapture Solutions
TCSG> 1806 Albany Street
TCSG> Durham, NC 27705-3134
Look in the back of Computer Shopper...he's been known to "advertise".
From
what I've seen, most can't afford his "price" and all the extras that come
wit
h it.
--- GoldED 2.42.G0614+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Here's a keeper
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:18:50
--------
EID:e4eb 1cf09240
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c5
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0d9
THREE for the quote file in just one message. I'm beginning to think some
of
our fundies have been out in the summer sun too long.
Nathan Dutton wrote in a message to Simon Ewins:
ND> In 18:9 it was true what Jesus said.
ND> Remember we need to count the supernatural in all of
ND> this as well.
ND> Jesus was the first to rise himself from the dead,
ND> all other occurances happened from Gods power
ND> I don't think John made it up. The answer of why this
ND> was done this way is probably God wanted that way.....
..."Every once in a while, stop and enjoy an ice cream cone." -Einstein
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: HOLYSMOKE FAQ - HOLYF
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:31:11
--------
EID:5258 1cf09be0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c0
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 43c43739
Martin Goldberg wrote in a message to Edward Hopkins:
EH> Robert was just making it up to make fun of religion.
EH> People
EH> all over the world know that God exists.
MG> In Columbus's time, people all over the world knew that the
MG> earth was flat.
And some fundies still know it's flat.
...Baptists don't make love standing up. It's too close to dancing.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Unity
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:44:54
--------
EID:dac3 1cf09d80
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c6
REPLY: 1:250/820.666 2e233fc5
C. J. Henshaw wrote in a message to MIKE PRATHER:
CJH> Wednesday July 06 1994, MIKE PRATHER writes to JOHN PREWETT:
MP> I've found that when someone says they're non-denominational, they're
MP> about as far out of reality as is possible.
CJH> This describes John 'JFK will rise from the dead' Prewett
CJH> quite well. Yes, he does 'think' JFK will rise from the
CJH> dead and become the 'antichrist.'
Actually, John thinks JFK is still alive.
...Fundamentalism means never having to open one's mind.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Becoming God
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:01:30
--------
EID:8b53 1cf0a820
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c2
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
JO> So where is he? Is the CIA hiding him? Shacked up in
JO> Havana with Fidel? Did you believe that picture in one of
JO> the tabloids a few years ago showing Jackie with a grey
JO> haired JFK? Was that the source of your prophecy?
JJH> Modern technology (in the form of image editing software)
JJH> sure has been a boon to the Weekly World News.
JJH> Some of those faked photographs are works of art.
And no doubt making them credible to those who believe in their stories.
I'm s
urprized John hasn't cited the scene form _Forrest Gump_ showing Tom Hanks
wit
h JFK as 'proof' that JFK is still alive. :-}
JJH> Beats the hell out of the days when "cut and paste" was
JJH> something done with sissors and glue.
Yeah, but the old ones were so obvious it was comical.
..."Facts are stupid things" - R. Reagan
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: evidence???
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:21:28
--------
EID:889a 1cf0aaa0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c3
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 608e6225
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
jon> If you had just stayed home in your closet, they would never
jon> have known that you are Black, (oh wait, that wasn't it),
jon> Jewish?, ... I forgot, what is your crime? It's just too
jon> hard to try to think this way, I'm running out of sarcasm.
jon> ;=}
FR> Amen on all fronts. Very well said.
Thank you.
FR> There are Christian
FR> groups which are activly trying to make homosexuality a
FR> crime punishable by death.
Along with adultry. Take a moment and think the unthinkable, and consider
wha
t would be next if they did. No sex with the lights on? Only during 'approve
d' hours and for an 'approved' duration? Limitations on language used?
The l
ist is endless. I was told that there was a law on the books in Pennsylvania
that classified any sexual activity other that the "missionary position",
with
the male superior, as an "unnatural act". I'm sure some of our fundies
would
sure like to see that one resurrected.
FR> They are gathering and
FR> consolidating their forced in Colorado for the past few
FR> years.
"On January 7, the _Gazette Telegraph_ newspaper of
Colorado Springs, Colorado, decided to survey religious organizations
which have moved into that city, especially since 1990.
It appears that the executive vice president of the Greater
Colorado Springs Economic Development Corporation had been busy
recruiting such organizations for the city." American Atheist
Newsletter March, 1994
Wonder just who pays that dude's salary.
...It's a scary feeling when you see B8 00 4C CD 21, and know what it does.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Sandy Doonan
Sub: hat
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:05:21
--------
EID:6dd9 1cf0b0a0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c4
REPLY: 1:102/890.7@FidoNet 609641b2
Sandy Doonan wrote in a message to John Prewett:
RT> that you favor these types of simplistic explanations in place of
RT> reason or reasoning.
jp> I haven't seen any reasoning from you
jp> that leads to anywhere worth going.
SD> But then your "reasoning" includes John F. Kennedy being
SD> alive, I noticed.
Wanna bet when Dr. Kissinger dies John will deny he's dead?
...Every absurdity has a champion to defend it.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Fresh fundy meat
Date: 17 Jul 94 05:05:03
--------
EID:a0ef 1cf128a0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b0
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e27185f
Shelby Sherman wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
SS> 13 Jul 94 01:39, Jack O'Neill wrote to Marty Leipzig:
SS> Rick Gordon uttered this:
RG>> Now, some geologists feel that at least some of the major
RG>> seismic disturbances which are evidenced in various parts of
RG>> the world at the Cenozoic levels are best explained as
RG>> triggered by the flood. [...]
SS> Thanks for saving this quote.
It's tucked away with, almost :-{, every other post in this echo that has
made
it to my system since late May.
SS> Now he cannot reasonably deny
SS> that he he said it, that is unless he claims that Satan made
SS> him say it.
I won't be surprised when the day comes that one of these fundies thinks
my ta
pe drive is a device of their satan god. ;=}
..."You did *what* in my name?!?" -- Jesus
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Pompous?
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:14:10
--------
EID:636e 1cf161c0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b7
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 270f9d00
Hector Plasmic wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
>SS> You know, I asked the same thing and got no answer. I've
>SS> asked many questions of the Rev. Charles Ray and gotten no
>SS> answers. Why do we bother?
JO>*I* certainly don't plan to hold my breath waiting for an answer.
JO>My favorite question to Revolving Charlie is the one about women
JO>preachers in his church. I, and two or three others, asked him to
JO>justify that in light of the passage from their holey writ about
JO>women keeping silent and not to teach.
HP> Unless the Ass o' godders have had a fairly recent change of
HP> heart, they don't allow women to be preachers. Note the TV
HP> relationship between Tammy Faye and Jimbo Bakker -- that was
HP> about as high as women could get in that particular cult
HP> last time I checked.
These statments by two of our ass o' godders would seem to indicate otherwise.
----------------------
From: Jerry Randall
To: Charlie Ray 19 Jun 94 00:19:58 Subject:ÿTa
bernacle
[...]
I am in the Oklahoma Dist. of the Assembly of GOD. I reside and minister
in s
ection 10. I am recognized as a certified minster by both the General Council
and the Dist. Council. How about you? ....Rev. Jerry
----------------------
From: Jerry Randall
To: Rick Gordon 21 Jun 94 01:56:52 Subject:ÿTa
bernacle
You're welcome I hope it helps. If you still have questions, my Pastor
takes
a great interest in the tabernacle, I'd be happy to relay questions to her.
Rev. Jerry [^^^]
----------------------
And then Charlie clinched it with:
----------------------
From: Charlie Ray
To: Jerry Randall 23 Jun 94 22:40:00 Subject:ÿTa
bernacle
[...]
The senior pastor of your church is a woman, Jerry? If so, that is great.
It just proves to the world that Pentecostals are not prejudiced against
wome
n ministers:)
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
----------------------
J.J., Scot, and I have asked Charlie how they can do this when their hol[e]y
b
ook says that women are to "be in silence" and not to teach. I haven't
seen h
im answer yet. Hit your key and we'll ask him again.
...Thou shalt pay homage to the god favored by the majority.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Women
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:45:53
--------
EID:b7b0 1cf16da0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b2
Hello Charlie,
This has been asked of you before and if you replied Fido must have eaten
your
answer. :-} So let's try again.
On the 23rd of June you said, in a message to Jerry Randall:
"The senior pastor of your church is a woman, Jerry? If so, that is
great. It just proves to the world that Pentecostals are not prejudice
d
against women ministers:)"
How can your church allow women to be ministers in light of the following
pass
ages from your bible?
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedien
ce, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their
husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(1st Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 14)
11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transg
ression.
(The First Epistle to Timothy, Chapter 2)
How is a woman able to minister in a christian church if she is to "keep
silen
ce in the churches" and "it is not permitted unto them to speak"?
Thanks
...Moral: Term used to tell others you're better than them.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Reply
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:31:55
--------
EID:6998 1cf173e0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b8
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 43de0cdd
Martin Goldberg wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
MG> They claim it to be the disease of homos from thie all
MG> powerful and loving god. why not just snap your fingers,
MG> kill the homos and leave the heteros alone. that is, if
MG> you're a loving god that likes to KILL people.
I wish they would explain why the U.S. military, with all of it's ineptitude
a
nd human frailties, can _usually_ wipe out a single building of it's choice,
b
ut their omnipotent god thingy can't send a plague, earthquake, tornado,
flood
, hurricane, drought, or whatever without killing so many 'good guys'.
MG> membrane makeup). It used to be that they always found at
MG> least one student (male or female) with "Intracellular Gram
MG> negative diplococci" the bell weather sign of Ghonnorrea.
Ah, the dedicated students performing extra-curricular research for one
of the
ir sexuality courses no doubt. :-}
...Never accept brownies from a proctologist.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: SIGNSOF.TXT
Date: 15 Jul 94 07:04:53
--------
EID:acac 1cef3880
> Hello All!
> It will be a number tattooed on the right hand or forehead of every
> individual.
> not prefixed by '666' or its equivalent, they will not be in touch with
Interesting. But of doubtful accuracy.
Consider that those who go along with the coming thing,
have the mark of the beast (the character of satan) in
their brain.
They may not actively be against anyone (except God).
If they actively participate in killing the remnant,
they are said to have the mark in their hand.
More or less.
phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Matt Giwer
Sub: Re: law/grace
Date: 15 Jul 94 07:10:01
--------
EID:2aeb 1cef3940
> The Ten Commandments and all regulatory additions are hereby
> rescinded. The human race can handle anything they address
> without my help.
Seems like that part is here before your schedule! :)
Very few people can name the 10 C.
And most consider them ten suggestions.
phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: ask
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:48:44
--------
EID:ca85 1cf04600
> That would be tempting the Lord. I would not ask a selfish act
> out of a motive just to prove God's authenticy to you.
OK
Now tell me, when He asks us to be "bold" when approaching
His Mercy, what are we actually asking Him for?
Wisdom? How about healings?
I need ever so much more... phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Re: laws
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:58:25
--------
EID:5e3c 1cf04740
> RC Hey, everyone - it's time for Phil's favorite dead bitch
(Ellen Gould White, plagiarist)
to spew forth her paranoid stupidity:
> PM> Those who honor the Bible Sabbath will be denounced
> PM> as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral
> PM> restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and
> PM> calling down the judgments of God upon the earth.
> That's funny! Who do you know who has ever "denounced" those who
> take Saturdays off as "enemies of law and order?" Spit it out.
Provide your surface mail address, and I'll see if I can
locate an issue (rather far back) describing the chain-gangs
in (YES) Tennessee, for no other "crime" than above.
HOWsumEVER, the thrust of her statement is FUTURE...
Phil
PS Are you sure you are not over-valuing her contributions
in your entering remarks? hi :) Be careful not
to give her TOO MUCH credit...
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From: Phil Morrison
To: All
Sub: Love sin?
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:08:39
--------
EID:75df 1cf04900
Or hate it?
*
* All true obedience comes from the heart.
* It was heart-work with Christ.
*
* And IF WE CONSENT,
* *************
* He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims,
* so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will,
* that when obeying Him
* we shall be but carrying out our own impulses.
* ****************
* The will, refined and sanctified,
* will find its highest delight in doing His service.
* ***************
* When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him,
* our life will be a life of continual obedience.
* *******************
* Through an appreciation of the character of Christ,
* through communion with God,
* sin will become hateful to us.
* ******* (egw)
*
Robert Curry has already expressed his high approval of
the lady author of DESIRE OF AGES. Some 100 years old.
phil
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From: Michael Hardy
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: explore
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:14:59
--------
EID:e13f 1cf0b1c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270E8
-> MH> But, critical thinking tells me that I shouldn't necessarily
-> MH>dismiss someone else's experience just because I may not have had
-> MH>similar experience. It doesn't mean I should accept it uncritical
-> MH>either, but it does suggest that something *may* be going on wort
-> MH>exploring.
->
-> Okay, how does your "critical thinking" propose "exploring" a "person
-> experience" for which even the experiencer admits there is no evidenc
->
-> Did you think it through, Mike?
->
Talk to the person, decide whether he or she is stable and sane,
and then discuss the experience. Find out how many other people claim
similar experiences. Keep an open mind about the truth of the
experience.
Reserve judgment.
You would rather shout "Got any evidence?" And shut your mind to
the possibility that anything can be true that you, Hector Plasmic,
can't understand or perceive.
--- WM v3.10/93-0963
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From: Michael Hardy
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: real world
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:16:44
--------
EID:26ce 1cf0b200
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270E9
-> MH> By assuming you know what is the "real world,"
->
-> You don't? ROFL! It figures. What do you do, make up a new world
-> every morning? Or do you have mornings in your world? What color is
-> the sky in your world, Mike? Is it Earth or some other planet, or do
-> you just sort of float, ever wakeful, in your whimsically colored sky
->
-> Would you like an experiment to perform that might help you get a gri
-> on what the real world is? Any tall buildings in your world? Does
-> gravity work there?
->
You really are quite annoying.
It must be nice to know everything. There's so much less to learn.
Michael
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From: Michael Hardy
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: mithra
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:37:26
--------
EID:02d1 1cf0b4a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270EA
This is what you call parallels? For a minute there I was afraid you
were going to come up with something challenging.
-> Originally Mithra was one of the lesser gods of the ancient Persian
-> pantheon, but he came to be regarded as the spiritual Sun, the heaven
-> Light, and the chief and also the embodiment of the seven divine spir
-> of goodness; and already in the time of Christ he had risen to be co-
-> with, though created by, Ormuzd (Ahura-Mazda), the Supreme Being [J.M
-> Robertson, /Pagan Christs/, p. 290.], and Mediator between him and ma
-> [Plutarch, /Isis et Osiris/, ch. 46; Julian, /In regem solem/, chs. 9
-> 21.]. He appears to have lived an incarnate life on earth, and in so
-> unknown manner to have suffered death for the good of mankind, an ima
-> symbolising his resurrection being employed in his ceremonies [Tertul
"Appears to have lived?" "Some unknown manner?"
-> Epistles and Gospels. Thus the designations of our Lord as the Daysp
-> from on High [Luke, i. 78.], the Light [2 Cor. iv. 6; Eph. v. 13, 14;
-> Thess. v. 5; etc.], the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi iv. 2; and much
-> in Christianity.], and similar expressions, are borrowed from or rela
-> to Mithraic phraseology.
->
Malachi was written at least four centuries before this religion
appeared on the Hebrew scene.
Images of light are found in Jewish thought as well, particularly
the Dead Sea Scrolls written by the Essenic Jews (and also predating
Mitraism's arrival on the scene.) There is no need to assume that
Mithras was the only place the metaphor could have come from.
Nor is there any reason to think that a borrowing of terms, if such
a thing took place, means borrowing of ideas.
The differences are as striking as the similarities. Jesus is also
called the Word (Logos) of God; son of Man; and a number of other
descriptive apellations. These did not come from Mithras.
-> Mithra was born from a rock [Firmicus, /De errore/, xxi.; etc.], as s
-> in Mithraic sculptures, being sometimes termed ``the god out of the
-> rock'', and his worship was always conducted in a cave; and the gener
-> belief in the early Church that Jesus was born in a cave is a direct
-> instance of the taking over of Mithraic ideas. The words of