God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Evolution
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:37:11
--------
EID:456d 1cf104a0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 7881363e
CR> CR> For your information, I lean toward "theistic" evolution, that God
CR> CR> the evolutionary process. I also tend to believe that evolution
di
CR> MG>happen
CR> CR> pretty much the way the major theory explains it. However, I make
CR> CR> distinction between the claim to absolute knowledge and hypothetica
CR> CR> conjecture. In short, evolution is the best theory available to
da
CR> CR> it is NOT FACT. You seem to be unable to make this most basic
CR> MG>distinction.
CR> MG> You still have not named on thing.
You have still not named on things.
CR> CR> MG> No one has said that. The creation explanation was
CR> CR> MG>discarded when it could not explain the fossil record. Should
CR> CR> MG>the time come when the theory of evolution can not explain the
CR> CR> MG>facts of evolution then it will be modified or discarded.
CR> The creation explanation does not necessitate a young earth view, nor
does
CR> it necessarily rule out theistic evolution as your assumption seems
to
CR> presuppose.
Of course it requires a young Earth, one roughly 6000 years
old to be specific. Why in the world did the idea ever come into
existence were it not for that story? Who else invented it?
Upon what grounds was it invented?
Specifically what your imaginary old earth form of creation
requires is that every time there is a return of fossil forming
conditions then and only then do creation events occur.
Clearly, at one time there were fossil forming condition and
by jove there were creation events. Later fossil forming
conditions go away and creation ceases. Even later when fossil
forming conditions return by George that god of your shows a
burst of creative activity.
CR> MG> No evidence for it and it explains nothing other than when
CR> MG>you want no brainer explanation you invoke another miracle. That
CR> MG>certainly makes life exasy.
CR> What do you mean evidence. There can be no absolute proof of metaphysical
CR> realities.
Nor is there the slightest evidence that metaphysics is
anything other than an advanced form of mental masturbation. So
why would you bother bringing it up.
I find it a greater miracle to suppose that the cosmos simply
CR> happened than that a Creator guided the creation of the universe from
the
CR> initial Big Bang to our present state of affairs.
What greater miracle. Our universe is a natural result of
the existence of nothing. You are demonstrating Clarke's
observation that any sufficiently advanced science will appear to
be magic in another form. There is a clear explanation for the
existence of the universe and you insist upon calling it a
miracle.
Bow down and worship the idol rather than learn.
You appear to have some compulsion to invoke a god for what
you can not personally understand and no interest in completing
your understanding in that gods are more comforting.
CR> CR> MG> And if there is it would still leave creation explaining
CR> CR> MG>nothing about the fossil record. So why would you keep raising
CR> CR> MG>objections when you do not know the different between the theory
CR> CR> MG>and fact of evolution?
CR> CR> It you yourself who seems to be unable to make the distinction,
fri
CR> MG> I am speaking in the scientific sense not the way you are
CR> MG>confusing the terms.
CR> The facts require an interpretation,
They require nothing. But an explanation of known facts is
always of interest. One does not intemperate facts to fit a
theory. A theory stands or falls upon its ability to explain the
facts.
a paradigm for understanding different
CR> pieces of the puzzle. In this sense, no matter how well the pieces
fit,
CR> the theory of evolution is still a hypothetical explanation. IMO, it
is
CR> the best explanation to date of the facts available. However, theories
ar
e
CR> theories, not facts. Perhaps it is you who is confusing terms?
Of course they are different despite you constantly
confusing the terms. I will also note that creation is no
explanation of the facts unless you hypothesize that your god can
only create when fossil conditions are right and even then your
god is limited to making his latest creation look very much like
his last creation and is incapable of creating mammals with more
than four limbs and is limited in dozens of other ways.
It that is a god it must be an apprentice god just learning
the ropes of creation.
CR> CR> MG> It has already been observed. If you are planning to hang
CR> CR> MG>around on this world for a few million years you might see the
CR> CR> MG>kind of change you think evolution is talking about. In fact
yo
CR> CR> MG>will see genetic drift until species have become distinctly
CR> CR> MG>different.
CR> CR> Interesting speculation there, Matt. Perhaps you need to re-examin
CR> CR> exactly what current thinking is among the scholars within geology
CR> CR> paleontology before you make such sweeping generalizations.
CR> MG> I believe I am quite current. What might it be you are
CR> MG>talking about?
CR> The list you give in evidence of transitional fossils is highly
CR> interpretative evidence and is in no way absolutely conclusive.
Whose current thinking says that? Please be specific.
It does
CR> indicate that evolution may have taken place, but there is room for
doubt
CR> and continued investigation of the evidence as well as new fossil finds.
Whose current thinking says that? Please be specific.
CR> While I may not be as current as I might be on the subject, I am familiar
CR> enough with the discipline to know that no two paleontologists agree
CR> exactly on any transitional form.
Which are your referring to? Please be specific.
Also, the number of fossils used to
CR> substantiate such "evidence" is usually extremely limited.
Who is saying that? Please be specific.
Since you have a reading familiarity with all of the above
quotations will be greatly appreciated.
---
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--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Evolution
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:31:11
--------
EID:456d 1cf103e0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 7881363f
CR> This list is all interpretative information regarding supposedly
CR> transitional FOSSILS. You made the claim that evolution was going on
in
CR> the contemporary animal world where species have recently transformed
into
CR> other species. Let's see it, Matt. Otherwise, I must assume that you
are
CR> attempting to misdirect your response.
I have posted both the list of ancient ones (which was the
subject of this thread) and the list of recent ones which you now
pretend I said I would post.
You asked for transitional fossils in this thread and that
is precisely what I provided.
If you are now going to hold that the looks like a a duck,
waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck means it is only
INTERPERATED that is is a duck, fine with me. If you have
another meaning on interpretation please post it.
CR> Moreover, this list you give is old news and really doesn't prove beyond
CR> all doubt that these are transitional forms, though admittedly some
do see
m
CR> to be so. The point is that you claimed that this process is happening
CR> today and that you could provide proof. Let's see it.
What has been posted is evidence. Very good evidence to my
mind but you may reject it.
But as for today
======================================================================
Authors: Chris Stassen (stassen@netcom.uucp),
jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt),
Anneliese Lilje (anne@cco.caltech.edu),
L. Drew Davis (drewd@terminus.gatech.edu)
Title: A List of Observed Speciation Events
======================================================================
By Chris Stassen:
Here is a short list of referenced speciation events. I picked
four relatively well-known examples, from about a dozen that I
had documented in materials that I have around my home. These
are all common knowledge, and by no means do they encompass all
or most of the available examples.
Example one:
A strain of _drosophilia paulistorum_ developed hybrid
sterility after being isolated in the lab for only a
couple of years.
(Test for speciation: offspring are not fertile, like
horse vs. donkey.)
Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally
created incipient species of Drosophilia", _Nature_
23:289-292.
Example two:
Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of
the chromosome count, from the original stock. (Note that
polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race"
of the same species as the original stock, but they do meet
the criteria which you suggested.)
(Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the
original stock.)
Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in
_Epilobium angustifolium_ (Onaagraceae)", _Evolution_
21:713-719
Example three:
Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which
occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the
creature to the island.
(Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology.
It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been
performed with the parent stock.)
Stanley, S., 1979. _Macroevolution: Pattern and Process_,
San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41
Example four:
Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which
formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years
ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago.
(Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and
lack of natural interbreeding. These fish have complex
mating rituals and different coloration. While it might
be possible that different species are inter-fertile,
they cannot be convinced to mate.)
Mayr, E., 1970. _Populations, Species, and Evolution_,
Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348
==============================================================================
=
Anything else you would like?
---
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Judith Bandsma
Sub: Pig and Pepper
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:21:20
--------
EID:e312 1cf0aaa0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 cb6ad31c
On (14 Jul 94) Judith Bandsma wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> Remember, the use of pepper is the only blasphemy. Do not use it or
RC> allow it to be used. All will submit to the Great Dodecaheaded One!
JB> So that's why my mother would never allow pepper in the house!
JB> She never would explain it to us.
Either a proto-Dodecaheadist, or displeased by the Dutchess's cook.
JB> But can you explain the ban on coffee? That's the other great
JB> mystery that I would like explained.
Perhaps out of respect for Daisy, as coffee gives Her diarhea.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Small Steps
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:22:19
--------
EID:23d9 1cf0aac0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 ce4c274d
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to All...
PM> 1. We are here, and we are able to think.
You have yet to demonstrate that you can think critically, though
you do a fine job of evading certain questions (see following post).
PM> 2. There is (or is not) a Creator.
There are millions.
PM> 3. If yes, He reveals Himself unto us.
He, she, they. Look around you, Phil. If it's just a ghost that
you mean, however, then it appears to be rather the Created.
PM> 4. As the man, Jesus.
Of whom (assuming, as is not unreasonable, that such a person
actually existed historically) you know next to nothing but some
wild legends from an age of superstition.
PM> 5. Who volumtarily died in our place.
Like Mithras died in your place?
PM> 6. Who rose again.
A veritable jack-in-the-box god, popping up every time you crank
the handle of dogmatic repetition.
PM> 7. Who lives forever.
Along with the crew of the Flying Dutchman.
PM> 8. To make intercession for His own people.
While laughing uproariously as Gypsies and Jews are tortured and
killed by the millions. Oh, well. Since they are not his own
people, they may as well suffer and be killed, as he chuckles over
their plight, smiling divinely from above at their pain.
PM> 9. Who wants us "to prosper and be in health."
But really doesn't mind watching children starve to death.
PM> 10. Who is active, today.
Due to the heavenly aerobics program; not that such actions
amount to a hill of beans where it matters.
PM> 11. Who forgives and heals.
In absentia.
PM> 12. Who says, "Ask."
But what he really means, judging by the actions of those who
claim to listen to him, is "Evade all questions that are asked
of you, because make-believe is blissful, but ignorant."
PM> 13. Who gives us various gifts.
Such as smallpox.
PM> 14. Who is coming back.
With Elvis in a UFO, to inaugurate John F. Kennedy as World Tyrant
and Dictator of the Solar System.
PM> 15. Who will keep on giving us life.
In return for us giving him life by imagining him to exist.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Four questions for you
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:23:24
--------
EID:3e25 1cf0aae0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 9537e761
Here is my list of questions you evaded Phil, first posted June 29th:
1. Do you have any way whatsoever to distinguish your
idea of God from make-believe, Phil?
Any at all?
(asked April 30th)
2. Or can you - and I ask this in all seriousness,
Phil - can you in any way distinguish your notion of
"God" from that which exists only in imagination?
(asked May 2nd)
3. So explain to us please how one tells the difference
between a counterfeit ghost and a genuine ghost.
(asked May 3rd)
4. Do you have any way whatsoever of distinguishing
your god from that which is only imaginary?
How do YOU make any such distinction?
I don't see that there would be any problem
answering that, unless you do not in fact make any
such distinction.
(asked May 5th,
May 7th, May 11th)
It's about time for you to face these questions honestly, and answer.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Mere Blind Faith
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:24:31
--------
EID:5d35 1cf0ab00
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 93e86165
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> No wonder Christianity is rightfully said
RC> to be intellectually bankrupt.
PM> BLIND FAITH? Really?
Yes, Phil - really.
As Michael Hardy unwittingly expressed it so well not too long
ago, it is nothing but pure speculation; or as the unaffected can
clearly see, unevidenced belief based upon nothing more than old
superstitions and wishful thinking.
Blind and arbitrary, the hallmarks of religious faith.
The practical result in believers? Evasion and denial.
PM> Quote:
Just because you play "Simon Says" with some dead bitch of a
plagiarist (Ellen Gould White) means nothing. You thoughtlessly
quote her claims and assertions as if they were evidence that
your identical empty claims and assertions were true.
No wonder Christianity is said to be intellectually bankrupt.
EGW> The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear,
EGW> founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control.
The Hegemony of the Great Dodecaheaded One is not, as the Pepper
Fiend would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission,
an unreasoning control. Do you believe, Phil? Do you?
Your "God" and "Satan" are just as unevidenced as the GDO and the
Pepper Fiend. But blind faith in old superstitions has you bowing
and scraping in deference to these playthings without stopping
to think if they exist at all outside imagination.
EGW> It appeals to the intellect and the conscience.
The blind faith you exhibit by thoughtlessly and uncritically
swallowing fairy tales and pure speculation has NOTHING to
do with the intellect nor with the conscience.
EGW> "Come now, and let us reason together"
That is acceptable. Now answer the four questions I have for you.
PM> Robert, I know this is totally unacceptable to you, but
PM> I just had to state it for the lurkers.
Not to worry, the lurkers will quickly see your blind faith in
the mindless ramblings of a long dead plagiarist as evidence that
Christianity is, in some cases at least, intellectually bankrupt.
Furthermore, it is not _totally_ unacceptable. Let us reason
together, Phil. Take that to heart.
Now that you have returned to participate in the echo again, let
us address those questions you fled before, keeping reason first
and foremost in our mutual consideration. If you can provide any
substantial reason to think that your faith is not blind, do so.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: killing
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:25:52
--------
EID:0dcc 1cf0ab20
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 d43ad802
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to Martin Goldberg...
PM> The victims relatives might cast the first stone.
Jesus told you that, right? He whispered it in your ear.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: answers past due
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:26:33
--------
EID:1d41 1cf0ab40
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 4646a307
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to "Charlie Ray"...
> Or can you - and I ask this in all seriousness,
> Phil - can you in any way distinguish your notion of
> "God" from that which exists only in imagination?
PM> It's difficult for me to prove God to myself,
That's not what I asked. Kindly re-read the question.
Can you, Phil, can you even _distinguish_ your god from that
which exists only in imagination? Either you can do so
(in which case, I will be asking to see it done) or else you
can NOT.
Answer the question this time. Don't evade it, and don't
try to _change_ the question as a means of evading it.
PM> Very recently I am applying myself towards getting
PM> answers. Anyone care to help?
No one is able to answer the question for you. Either you
(Phil Morrison) can indeed distinguish your god from that which
exists only in imagination, or else you (Phil Morrison) cannot.
Now answer the question.
> So explain to us please how one tells the difference
> between a counterfeit ghost and a genuine ghost.
PM> This doesn't ring any bells. Perhaps another was asked it?
No, Phil, I asked YOU. And now I'm asking you again. You had
claimed that counterfeit ghosts don't disprove "genuine" ones.
> RC> How exactly do you distinguish this "Saviour"
> RC> from that which is only imaginary, Phil? Tell
> RC> me how.
>
> PM> Can't tell you, Robert.
PM> That I cannot tell Robert, doesn't mean I have no answer,
Then out with it! Your bluff is being called, right now.
PM> only that my answer won't be acceptable to Robert...
Anything is better than your obvious evasiveness. Whether or
not your eventual answer turns out to be but another example
of blind faith depends on you.
> You may send your response to the attention of Robert Curry,
> since it is I, after all, who is writing to your attention here.
PM> I guess Robert will see this.
The "I" above referred to me - didn't you see the origin line?
PM> And at present I have no good answer.
But tons of blind faith!
PM> Were I to say that the Spirit of God witnesses with my spirit,
Then you have not distinguished your Spirit Ghost from that which
exists only in the imagination, have you?
PM> that would no be acceptable to Robert, Charlie.
Oh, I accept your answer, Phil. And I see it for the unevidenced
blind faith that it is.
Play around with all the make-believe you wish, as is your right,
but don't cry when it is justly pointed out as blind faith.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Small Steps again
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:27:38
--------
EID:a51e 1cf0ab60
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 e96226cc
On (14 Jul 94) Phil Morrison wrote to All...
[15 dogmatic statements deleted because they are repetitions]
PM> If they ARE true, I want Robert Curry to know this.
Then you'd best find some _reason_ to think them true. I don't
share your affinity for blind faith, Phil.
PM> And others, too. But Robert is a favorite, somehow.
Is it because I called your prophetess a dead plagiarizing bitch?
Santa Claus shows his mercy by not putting coal in your stocking.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: worthless hearsay
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:28:45
--------
EID:72d3 1cf0ab80
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 aff0fea0
On (15 Jul 94) Charlie Ray wrote to Mike Prather...
CR> Elvis has impersonators. Jesus appeared to 500 plus witnesses
CR> at one time and ascended into heaven before their very eyes.
That's nothing! Daisy has appeared to twenty thousand plus witnesses
at one time, and ascended to Pluto before their very eyes _and_ their
very telescopes.
All you are doing is repeating groundless hearsay, which, due to
the ease of making it up, is inadmissible as evidence.
Preachers lie today, so there's reason to think they could just as
easily lie a couple hundred or a couple thousand years ago.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Zaynab Richmond
Sub: Baha'i - Fire Tablet 1
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:29:53
--------
EID:c606 1cf0aba0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 04fca89f
On (14 Jul 94) Zaynab Richmond wrote to All...
ZR> I am a member of the Baha'i Faith and am here to answer any
ZR> questions you may have about it.
Oh, boy! First a Quaker, and now a Baha'i - we're really getting
some unusual religious representatives in here this month.
Still waiting for a Satanist to show up....
Oh, and welcome to HolySmoke. Better pray to your god for help.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Dead Gods
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:04:00
--------
EID:b531 1cf16080
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 30a0851c
On 07-14-94, at 02:20, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to CHARLIE RAY in
reference to Dead Gods
JM> CR> I take it then that you really are a minister? Or is this
JM> CR> simply another rhetorical device?
JM> I am a legally ordained minister in the Universal Life Church.
Hello John. You have me confused. I am unable to tell if you believe in
Jesus as the son of God or not. You claim to be a minister of the
Universal Life Church. Would you please tell me what the doctrines of
this church is?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:04
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--------
From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Bad Laws
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:15:00
--------
EID:1cd3 1cf161e0
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 5b7702e5
On 07-15-94, at 08:10, PRESTON SIMPSON wrote to DAVE OOSTERMAN in
reference to Re: bad laws
PS>So. Are you advocating total monogamy? If so, why should people
PS>whose belief systems do not conform to yours follow what you have to
PS>say?
Are you saying that if your wife wanted to have sex with other people
it wouldn't bother you?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:15
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Christian Hate Groups
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:20:00
--------
EID:817e 1cf16280
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org 42944a71
On 07-15-94, at 08:10, PRESTON SIMPSON wrote to NATHAN DUTTON in
reference to Re: Christian hate groups
PS> CJH> What's UNnatural about them? If you god doesn't like fags,
PS> CJH> then why did he create them?
PS> CJH> Remember, certain animals also practice homosexuality as a
PS> CJH> population control mechinism.
PS> ND> God created the man not the immoral choice to become gay...
PS> ND> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
PS> ND> Homosexuality is a Choice. A immoral one......
PS>Your opinion is noted as being worthless. It is not supported by the
PS>facts. If you have facts that you wish to present to support your
PS>argument, you are invited to do so. If not, your opinion will remain
PS>as such and thus will have little, if any bearing on the rest of our
PS>lives.
I don't think the majority of the believers on this echo could care
less whether you think his opinion is worthless or not. We also could
care less about all your claims of facts and evidence.
Homosexuality is wrong, period. No gray area.
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:20
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From: Johnny Mckinney
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: " Get Saved Today "
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:27:00
--------
EID:0fe4 1cf16360
MSGID: 1:106/6256@fidonet.org b449d157
On 07-14-94, at 02:41, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to DOUG BREWER in
reference to Re: " Get Saved Today "
JM> There are a great many books on this subject, but one of the
JM> most concise is "The Mythmaker - Paul and the Invention of
JM> Christianity" by Hyram Maccoby and published by Weidenfield and
JM> Nicolson, ISBN 0-297-78805-1. That particular book contains
JM> enough references for you to do some extra research on the
JM> subject. I might also recommend "Jesus Within Judaism" by James
JM> Charlesworth and Michael Grant's "Jesus- An historians Review of
JM> the Gospels. I'll give you the ISBNs for those if you would like
JM> them.
John I don't understand why you tell us to read certain books against
religion and expect it to change our view. When believers reference
books to humanist, atheists, etc., i.e. "evidence" by Josh McDowell,
everyone screams he is debunked and unreliable. What is so special
about the two books and authors you spoke of above? What's to say we
don't think they're debunked as well? Where does anybody draw the
line?
In God's Love,
~Johnny~
07/17/94 12:11
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From: Brian Beard
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:21:02
--------
EID:da15 1cf072a0
MSGID: 1:388/12.0 2e28250d
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Tyler A. Wunder to Nathan Dutton <=-
TWA> Who said that gay activists don't have God on their side? I know
Sorry, I just had to butt it. It seems to me impossible that God
would be on the side of gays. The Bible clearly states in
(1 Corn. 6:9-11) that homosexuality is a sin. Since God is is
against sin how against sin, tell me how can He be for it.
TAW> a few gay Christians -- I also know a few Christian bigots who claim
TAW> that homosexuals are evil or diseased or some such prejudicial
TAW> codswallop.
True that some Christians do think homosexuals are evil or desiesed,
but Romans 1:18-32 says that it is resulted from sin. If you have
accepted Christ into your heart all sins are frogiven, including
homosexuality.
... Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. (Thoreau)
--- ChainMail/JAM 1.02+
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From: LARRY SITES
To: ALL
Sub: ICR Luna(tics)
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:06:00
--------
EID:30b2 1cf0a0c0
In an attempt to rip off the 25th anteversity (sp?) of the moon landing,
the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) has produced a half hour radio
show called "Apollo, Quest for the Moon". Hosted by Jim Long and Vanessa
Hodge it includes comments from several people involved with the project
as
well as several ICR shills. First they make out Werner Von Braughn as a
bible believing creationist. This is the same Natzi that had no problem
serving Hitler in the 2nd world war.
Next, Pratt Johnson, one of the 3 engineers quarantined with the returning
astronauts, says that the moon rocks are basically the same as earth rocks.
The ICR's Gish mumbles that there was no danger of extratrestial germs
because earth is the only place of life. After astronaut Charlie Duke, now
a christian, waxes poetic about his now christian vision of the trip,
Walter Hersch claims there is no clock to set radiometric dating by as
there was no one there at the beginning of the universe.
Then the ICR's physicist from Grace College, Dr Deyone Deyon (sp?) takes
over. He says that perhaps radiometric dating is open to interpretation
because atoms can migrate into or out of rocks. And further that because
of
tidal breaking effect that the moon is 1 1/2 inch further from the earth
each year, that it would touch the earth only 1.4 billion years ago. He
goes on to explain that each of the scientific explanations for the moons
origin have problems and concludes that not only is the biblical
explanation for the moon as a sign and season indicator correct, but it
also contributes to the health of the earth through its tidal effect and
angular stabilization effect, thus it is an obvious evidence of design.
The ICR concludes by offering a free publication, "The Moon, Creation, and
Composition" by calling 1-800-743-6374, for more details.
Peace, Larry
___
* WR # 398 * I like -made .
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From: Steve Lew
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Gay bashing
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:27:12
--------
EID:5cb2 1cf17360
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299420
JJ>SL>speaking. Apostle Paul wrote that homosexuality was not "normal".
He
JJ>SL>goes even further to say that oral sex is not "normal" since it is
JJ>SL>considered a form of homosexuality.
JJ> Where does Paul say these things?
I'll let you know when I go back to the Baptist Theological Seminary
tomorrow.
Cheers,
Steve
... Typical humans, you can always count on them to mess things up.
___
X TLX v3.30 X
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From: Steve Lew
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 'True Christians' at wor
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:56:14
--------
EID:86e6 1cf17700
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299aee
MG>MG>>Before you go on and on about your god, do you have any non
MG>MG>>biblical evidenc
MG> SL> First, I don't "go on about my God". I have not been to church in
MG>You obviously had something to say or I wouldn't have
MG>replied to it.
This is a laugh.
MG>"If you believe in god, do you have any real evidence to do
MG>so
Real evidence to my belief. Are you seriously asking me to show evidence
that I believe in our Lord Jesus Christ? As soon as you show me HOW to
do so then I will.
MG>or do you just believe because someone told you to?"
I DO have my own mind and can think for myself.
MG> SL> Yes, I know. I admitted yesterday that I meant to put gender and
MG> SL> not race. God does not mind whether or not other races
MG> SL> inter-marry.
MG>That's real big of him. he puts all the humans down here
MG>and doesn't care if some of them marry because they are a
MG>different color but prohibits because they are the same sex.
Once again, twisting the words around. I NEVER said God "prohibits" sex
with the same gender. He does not like it.
As for your questions pertaining to why is there sin, if God is so
powerful why doesn't He just get rid of it. God wants us to think for
ourselves and make our own choices, Heaven or Hell.
MG>To hell with him.
Lucifer, right ;)
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I am..the Doctor...whether you like it or not.
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From: Steve Lew
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 13yrs? Haha
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:00:16
--------
EID:0eb0 1cf17800
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299be0
MG>MG>>You're about 13 years old...right?
MG> SL> ROTFLOL!! Hardly. I'm getting a little long in the tooth. Double
MG> SL> that plus some and then you got it right.
MG>It's just that I couldn't imagine that any adult would
MG>believe this load of crap.
We all need SOMETHING to believe in. I believe there is a God and you
believe there is no God, am I correct?
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X M. Jackson seen at Kmart: SALE little boys pants 1/2 off!
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From: Steve Lew
To: Jack O'Neill
Sub: Hummmmm
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:14:18
--------
EID:fda5 1cf179c0
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e299f2a
JO>SL> I was just wondering as to why the people in _Holysmoke_,
JO>SL> that do Not believe that there is a God, know so much about
JO>SL> the bible and God?
JO>It is _BECAUSE_ we know so much about the bible that we
JO>don't believe it. Your bible is riddled with factual errors
JO>and contradictions. It's claims fly in the face of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not really. As soon as I am finished compiling my list I'll post it here
for all to read. It pertains to "contradictions" in the bible by showing
that the are not contradictions. At this time I ask for anyone to please
send me their contradictions they have pertaining to the bible. I will
answer them in my post but if I cannot answer them then I shall state
so. My answers will not have any bible quotes or "the bible said so".
JO>observed facts. As far as your god thingy goes, there is
JO>no evidence to suppport it's existence outside of
JO>imagination.
And there is no evidence to say that He does not exist, is there.
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I can keep a secret. It's the people I tell that cannot.
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From: Steve Lew
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: sin to exist
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:44:20
--------
EID:f992 1cf17d80
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e29a634
QF>QF>>way, if there was a god,
QF> SL> And there is :)
QF>You are correct. There is a god. It's the Mutant Cosmic Star Goat. I'm
save
d
QF>Ok, maybe not, but what makes your god so much better than the Star Goat?
QF>They both have an equal amount of evidence for their existances.
And they both have the same amount of evidence of their non-existence.
My God is not better than your Star Goat, just an equal. Depending on
your faith in "your" god, you have your beliefs and faith. I in turn
have the same for my God. You believe that your god is the all powerful
one, great I happy for you. I as well, have the same feeling about my
God.
QF> SL> IT?! God is not an it, not a He, not a She, not black, nor white.
QF>Of course not. There are no gods.
^^
You forgot to put an IMHO there. Other wise, to coin a popular phrase
around here, prove it.
QF> SL> This is where Lucifer, Gods ex-right hand er..a..wing angel, comes
int
o
QF> SL> play. He needs sin to exist. Good points though :)
QF>Why would an omnipotent god need sin to exist?
I need to stop posting at two or three in the morning, I keep skipping
words or putting the wrong ones in. I meant Satan needs sin to exist.
Those two lines were in reference twords Satin.
Cheers,
Steve
X TLX v3.30 X I still miss my ex-wife, but my aim is getting better.
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From: Kevin Lamonte
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Song
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:03:00
--------
EID:710b 1cf19860
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
JH> ND> JESUS LIVES THAT IS WHO!!!!!!!
JH> MG> Jesus is dead and Who is Tom Baker.
JH> KL> Hey, hey! Who is Sylvester McCoy and Peter Davidson and Tom
> KL> Baker. Three men, one Who....
JH> KL>
JH> Nay! Seven in the Mystical Number of Perfection!
> Behold...
JH> 1st William Hartnell
> 2nd Patrick Troughton
> 3rd Jon Pertwee
> 4th Tom Baker
> 5th Peter Davison
> 6th Colin Baker
> 7th Sylvester Maccoy
And on the third decade, He rose from the dead waters of Humanity
in the form of Homer Simpson, and the Evil shaketh'd to It's
roots...
(Amblin Entertainment is going to produce a new Who series to be
broadcast on Fox.)
TMFP!
Kevin Lamonte
---
OLX 2.2 Let no good deed go unpunished.
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From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Joel Donelson
Sub: Respond please...
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:52:02
--------
EID:3aaf 1cef6680
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E022A5
Thanks Joel!
Take Care,
Richard
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Check It Out...
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:55:27
--------
EID:65fa 1cef66e0
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E022A6
-> Not at all. But remember, those who make accusations of homosexuality
-> latent homosexuals themselves.
Is that your only weapon Preston, cause you sure use it quite often...
Sorry to burst your Bubble sweets but this Brother is pure man....
But then again I don't have to prove that to you....You're not my woman!
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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From: John Tait
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Superstitions
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:55:00
--------
EID:6d55 1cf176e0
q
-> I expect not. Just as I have found my own knowledge of rational
-> wisdom against such superstitions has been strengthened 10 fold by
-> listening to the babbling of the religiously deluded. If they can't
-> even remain faithful to
I do not see where christian beliefs are superstitious. They are based on
hist
orical facts. They are supported by personal observations. Granted they
step o
utside the laws of nature as we know them but who is to say we know them
all?
I also take exception to the statement that as a christian I have been molded
into a "tithing bread winning". If I was molded it was not by any human
but by
God. If I give it is because of what God has done for me. Have you ever
inves
tigated Chistianty from a personal level? You believe every you read or
hear.
--- QM v1.26/b
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: 'True Christians' at work again in Washington, DC.
Date: 16 Jul 94 12:42:00
--------
EID:c095 1cf06540
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e280f78
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0da
PID: GED 2.41
Wednesday July 13 1994, Nathan Dutton writes to C. J. Henshaw:
CJH>> Christians inspire hatered against fags.
ND> That is your view of Christianity. If you really followed
ND> Christ you would know that is not really true
'IS NOT!'
No amout of ranting, raving and footstamping on your part will change the
fact
s. Don't think so? Walk in front of a moving train and foam at the mouth
tha
t the train 'aint really there. Get back to us on how successful you are
in
making the train disapear.
Willfully deluding yourself is one thing, trying to force your delusions
on so
mebody else is somtething different again.
ND>> HE LIVES
CJH>> He's real....DEAD.
ND> HE LIVES
Is that all you can say when you are presented with something that insults
you
r mythologies?
ND>> ... "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it"
CJH>> Like not wearing mixed fibres? Or what about killing your enemy's
CJH>> children? (Pslam 137:9)
ND> Study the Bible!!!!
Answer the questions. According to the bible, Pi=3, bats are birds, insects
h
ave four legs and wearing two different types of cloth at the same time
is an
'abomination.'
ND> ... Psalm 14:1"The fool says in his heart,"There is no God."
Even the fool has more brains than a bible-worshipper.
C. J. Henshaw
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 12:50:01
--------
EID:551f 1cf06640
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e281355
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0db
PID: GED 2.41
Wednesday July 13 1994, Nathan Dutton writes to C. J. Henshaw:
CJH>> What's UNnatural about them? If you god doesn't like fags, then why
CJH>> did he create them?
ND> God created the man not the immoral choice to become gay...
Doesn't your bible state that your godlet created everything? Or can you
pick
and choose as to what it created?
CJH>> Remember, certain animals also practice homosexuality as a population
CJH>> control mechinism.
ND> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
So why did it create them?
You god has also determined that Judas died twice, and that bats are birds.
ND> Homosexuality is a Choice. A immoral one......
Present your evedence for these 'morals.'
There is substantinal evedence that being a fag most of the time isn't a
choic
e.
ND>> I don't want my son taught that garbage in school!!!!!!!
CJH>> Chances are, your son is in a private bible-banger school where fags
CJH>> aren't even admitted...
CJH>> Even so, you can't teach fag-ness any more than you can teach being
CJH>> black.
ND> You are born black, white or a certain race but you make the
ND> choice later in life whether you are going to lust after your
ND> same gender.
'You WILL do it MY way'. Sorry, you just don't get to say 'make it so.'
I fail to see what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom is any
of you
r concern. It certainly isn't any of my convern.
ND> Natural. Tell me how homosexuals reproduce.
Who's to say that have to reproduce? The population of the Earth is currently
something like four billion (4,000,000,000) people because of christian
teach
ings that you MUST reproduce.
How many more do you think the Earth can support? Or do you think that
'raptu
re' is so iminant that it doesn't matter?
ND> I mean everything in nature reproduces. rabbits, dogs, cats, humans.
Duhhh
ND> With your mentality, I guess it is safe to be excited the human race
ND> has made it this far...
You're basicly saying that if everybody was gay the human race would die
off.
That is true, but you're religous blinders are preventing you from seeing
tha
t life isn't in black and white.
CJH>> You are very arrogant to think that the bible has any meaning to
CJH>> unbelevers.
ND> IF so? Why are you getting so upset.
Stupidity bothers me.
ND> I believe it is none other than God is piercing you at the core of your
ND> corrupted beliefs...
C'mon godlet, pray for me. Make my day.
You're a real hypocrite to talk about currupted beleifs when the very foundati
on of your bible-worship was currupted by Saul for the perpose of wiping
out t
he religion based on a medieval carpenter who incited revolt against the
ocupa
tional armies of the Roman empire.
Everything you worship now is based on a lie.
CJH>> Just because I defend the rights of fags doesn't mean I am one.
ND> If you do not claim to be Gay I cannot understand you motives...
When the rights of one are abridged, the rights of all are threatened.
ND> ... JESUS WEPT
Is that supposed to mean something?
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Arse Hol(er)y
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:14:02
--------
EID:94aa 1cf069c0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2815b3
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DC1BB4
PID: GED 2.41
Saturday July 09 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to C.j. Henshaw:
DC> And an entry to the HS FAQ's hall of Fame?????
I'll consider it.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:01:00
--------
EID:791f 1cf07020
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2820b6
PID: GED 2.41
* Forwarded by C. J. Henshaw (1:250/820)
* Area : U_TALK.RELIGON.MISC (Usenet gated area)
* From : Gedaliah Friedenberg, 1:250/224.98 (Wednesday July 13 1994 16:17)
* To : All
* Subj : MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
(note: followups set to alt.messianic)
MISSIONARIES AT KOTEL DISGUISED AS ORTHODOX JEWS
(Dateline TEL AVIV) Rabbi Sholom R. Lifshitz, head of the educational
and anti-missionary organization Yad L'Achim, has come out with a
statement warning the public visiting the Western Wall in Jerusalem to
beware of missionaries disguised as Orthodox Jews with beard and peyos
[side locks - GF] who prey on Jews in distress at the Wall.
On 18-year-old boy, a resident of Jerusalem, told Yad L'Achim
activists the following story: "As I was praying by the Western Wall,
an Orthodox Jew with beard and peyos approached me and asked, 'Why are
you crying, what is the matter?' I told him my troubles and he
pursuaded me to come with him.
"It turned out that I was taken to Emanuel in the Old City next to the
Jaffa Gate, which is a church. There they attended to all my needs.
There is a young club there which preaches shmad (apostasty) and
Christianity."
Rabbi Lifshitz said the missionaries are distributing thousands of
copies of the New Testament throughout the country, and exploit the
ignorance of the new immigrants who are led to believe that it is the
authentic Tanach.
Rabbi Lifshitz added that now, during the summer, there is an increase
in missionary activities by thousands of tourists who exploit their
visit in Israel for "holy missionizing."
Gedaliah
-=-Gedaliah Friedenberg-=-
P. O. Box 334 Ohr Somayach Yeshiva friedenb@egr.msu.edu
Monsey, NY 10952 gfrieden@nyx10.cs.du.edu
My opinions are usually shared by Ohr Somayach Yeshiva, but I am not a
representative or spokesman of the Yeshiva in any way.
-+- uugate 0.34 (OS/2 2.11)
+ Origin: Michigan State University (1:250/224.98)
I'm left wondering if there's any limit to the underhandedness of Christian
fu
ndamentalists...
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 17:59:01
--------
EID:dc2f 1cf08f60
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e28598d
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0b987a9
PID: GED 2.41
Friday June 24 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> SOME TEACH there is to be no second coming of the Lord,
How can 'he' come twice if 'he' never existed at all?
MK> God's judgments, listed in the book of Revelation (chapters 6-18),
Quoting scripture at unbelevers is like quoting _Salem's Lot_ to people
who do
n't beleve in vampires. Don't beleve me? Would some quotes from the Q'ran
co
nvert you into a Muslem?
MK> How Soon Will the Rapture Take Place?
One spelling mestake here. It's 'RUPTURE' not 'RAPTURE.'
P.S.
Only a brainless fundi would contiune to spout religous tracts after they
wher
e asked, nay, TOLD not to. This activity has earned you the following discrip
tion in the HOLYSMOKE rollcall list:
Name Alignment Description
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[cut]
Margurete Kendall fundi twit Doesn't have a clue. Recently posted
500kB of fundi tracts. Forced to apologise
by moderator. Still up spewing scripture
like a busted shitpipe. However, it is only
posting fewer tracts at a time.
[cut]
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: DI&BOND.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:05:02
--------
EID:dc58 1cf090a0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285c13
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0b987b1
PID: GED 2.41
Friday June 24 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> Demonic Influence & Bondage
Oh no! How terrible.
MK> Getting Free-->><<--Staying Free
Next you'll be telling us about the demon under your bed.
MK> The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me... the Lord hath anointed me to
MK> preach...
Even where it isn't welcome, it would seem.
MK> Many people today live in prison. The cells may vary, the jailers
MK> face may be different, but the result is still the same.
Chances are, the prison is a chruch, and the jailer is the pastor or minister.
MK> They are bound by a force that they cannot control.
The threat of 'heavenly retribution' if they don't tithe each week.
MK> They cannot touch the force nor can they see it, but it is real.
'You can't see or feel the invisible elf that is beside me, but if you don't
d
o as I say, he'll clobber you over the head with a base-ball bat.'
Tell me the difference between the two statments.
MK> It may be a chemical dependence, such as alcohol, heroin, cocaine or
MK> tobacco. It may be lust, envy, jealousy, gluttony, hatred, fear or
MK> mental torment.
By mental torment, you must mean the Christian church.
MK> This force is not a respecter of persons, it attacks at will,
MK> sometimes rendering its victims helpless.
Like those who pay %60 percent of their income to their ministers?
MK> Man for centuries has tried to control it.
Sending people back to 'Jesus' is a very popular method used by Christians
to
attempt to control those who they think are controlled by their 'Satan'
diety.
Satan, being non-existant, doesn't worry me. Those who beleve in him, however
, DO concern me.
MK> This force is the power of Satan.
Only Christians beleve in this 'Satan.'
MK> The majority of people today are totally ignorant of Satan and the
MK> evil spirits, demons, that are under his control.
The majority of people today are totally ignorant of the lucky charms elf
and
the evil spirits, demons, that are under his control.
MK> By and large, unsaved people are influenced by demon spirits.
'If you aren't Christian, you a Satanist.'
How loving of your all-loving god. Jesus, save me from your followers.
[Remainer of your post deleted to save $$$$.$$]
MK> Father, I pray for those reading this tract desiring deliverance from
MK> the bondage the enemy of their soul has put them in. I rebuke every
MK> foul spirit and every demon that has tried to-+- TBBS v2.1/NM
Did Satan truncate your message because he didn't like what you are saying?
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: SIGNSOF.TXT
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:16:03
--------
EID:7f16 1cf09200
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285c87
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e0c34d65
PID: GED 2.41
Saturday June 25 1994, Marguerite Kendall writes to All:
MK> A recent article, appearing in the Duluth Sunday paper for July 18th
has
MK> provoked this little study. It had to do with a secret meeting of the
MK> Bilderberg group of about one hundred men, the super-rich, liberal
MK> intellectuals, world-prominent political figures, etc., in Vermont last
A
pril.
For humanitys sake, PLEASE `go back to Jesus' soon.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: Dupes again
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:19:04
--------
EID:0f9f 1cf09260
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e285d5e
PID: GED 2.41
A system in net 116 (Nashville, TN) is dumping dupes here again. This system
is responcable for the four scripture tracts that appeared under Margurite
Ken
dall's name.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Fundy-man buys a clue...
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:11:05
--------
EID:3c7b 1cf0b160
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e28938b
REPLY: 1:13/220 5f0f4306
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Doug Brewer writes to Ryan Shaw:
DB> I was wondering, if evolution is true, where in this world is a creature
DB> that is still in transition?
Evolution hasn't stopped; we're ALL in transition.
DB> Where is a half man-half ape, or something similiar?
Does evolutionary theory predict that there SHOULD be one?
DB> I also wonder if you are aware that Charles Darwin himself said in
his
book
DB> that, "..to assume that something as complex as the human eye came about
by
DB> random chance is, at best, absurd."
It's your strawman that evolution is random. It isn't.
C. J. Henshaw
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: 'Jews for Jesus' properganda sheet
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:23:06
--------
EID:e100 1cf0b2e0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e2899f7
PID: GED 2.41
Here's a type-up of something a 'Jews for Jesus' conversionist was speading
ar
ound here:
===
[Front cover]
[Several roadsigns]
SIGNS
[Page 1]
SIGNS are VERY IMPORTANT!
without them we would not know...
where we are.
[Picture depicting gormless-idiot in car looking at a 'entering LOWVILLE'
sign
]
or where we are GOING,
[Picture of aforementioned idiot in car stopping VERY QUICKLY opon seeing
a 'S
TOP you are going the wrong way' sign.]
or how to GET there.
[Same idiot looking at a steep-hill warning roadsign]
or if we should go some-place else.
[Idiot looking at a 'closed' sign]
[Page 2]
Signs are also importent to tell us...
how we are FEELING or how we SHOULD be feeling.
[Idiot looking at his tempriture]
or how we should BEHAVE in a certain place.
[Idiot in library, looking at 'QUIET' sign]
signs also tell us about the WEATHER.
[Weathermap of the U.S. ONLY, which is strange, considering this junk is
being
spread in Canada...]
or of COMING DANGER.
[Idiot falling face first onto wet floor; 'Slippery when wet sign on wall']
[Page 3]
We spend a lot of time learning how to READ signs...
But gow many of us HEED signs?
[Car speeding through crosswalk]
JESUS [Fish sign here] said that we know how to read the signs in NATURE...
But we don't know how to read the signs in LIFE-- that GOD is trying to
get a
message TO US. [Err, why would an omnipotent god have to TRY?]
For some it will be a sign of WARNING about coming danger,
to others it will be a sign of HOPE and PEACE.
Still others will see it as a sign to help them get BACK HOME after being
lost
.
[Page 4]
Why not take this pamphlet as a SIGN that...
[Sign of 'G O D wants to talk TO YOU]
"HOW GREAT ARE HIS SIGNS, and how mighty are His wonders. His kingdon is
an e
verlasting kingdon, and his deminions is from generation to generation"
daniel
4:3
"And the WORD became flesh, and dwent among us, and we beheld His (Y'shuua's)
glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Farther" john 1:14
[Page 5]
Signed, JHAN MOSKOWITZ
JEWS FOR JESUS
===
Any group who calls themselves 'JEWS FOR JESUS' must be highly fucked up...
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: LIBERAL GULF WAR CRAP
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:44:07
--------
EID:33fc 1cf0b580
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e289b59
PID: GED 2.41
KW>> Liberals abhor the use of force, particularly when it is successful,
KW>> for success confirms and advances the nobility of our military."
KW>> from "See, I Told You So" by Rush Limbaugh. Pocket Books. 1993.
Forget about 'Thou shalt not kill?'
Here' read this:
Local Storage (1:250/820)
LOCAL Msg : 150 of 178
From : nyt@blythe.org 1:343/70.10 Sat 02 Jul 94
11:4
7
To : All
Subj : Limbaugh Receives Flat Earth Award
.MSGID: 1:343/70.10
0000
4985
.PID GIGO+ sn 5 at helix vsn 0.99w32
.Message-Id:
From: nyt@blythe.org (NY Transfer News)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 14:47:35 -0500 (EST)
Jun 30, 1994 by johnwp@igc.apc.org
Ozone Action, Inc. PRESS RELEASE
1621 Connecticut Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20009
For Immediate Release:
Contact: Susan Pollack (202) 265-6738
June 29, 1994
RUSH LIMBAUGH AWARDED FLAT EARTH AWARD FOR BAD SCIENCE
Washington, D.C. - Today, Ozone Action awarded author and talk
show host Rush Limbaugh the first Flat Earth Award for promoting
the worst science since people thought the earth was flat.
Although Limbaugh qualified in a wide range of areas, his
statements about stratospheric ozone depletion, one of the most
serious environmental threats to life on the planet, won him this
award.
Limbaugh has gained notoriety for effectively misleading the
public on environmental issues. He takes the uncertainty that is
inherent in the natural sciences and uses it to erode confidence
in environmental and health regulations.
Limbaugh became the Master Confusionist on ozone depletion with
his broad-based and unfounded attacks on "junk scientists" and
"environmentalist wackos" in his talk shows and in his recent
book, The Way Things Ought to Be. Much of what Limbaugh says
about ozone depletion is based on information taken from the late
Dixie Lee Ray's books Trashing the Planet and Environmental
Overkill. Her books rely heavily on articles by Rogelio A. Maduro
for her conclusions about ozone depletion. Maduro is an associate
editor of 21st Century, a magazine published by Lyndon Larouche's
organization. Maduro is the co-author of The Holes in the Ozone
Scare which one leading atmospheric scientist described as "the
single best compilation of all the incorrect and out-of-date
information ever issued on ozone depletion."
"While people were sitting on the beach during the summer of 1993
reading Rush Limbaugh's book, they were getting burned in more
ways than one," said John W. Passacantando, Executive Director of
Ozone Action. Passacantando added, "NASA scientists were
measuring record ozone depletion over the United States and people
were being exposed to record amounts of ultraviolet radiation,
while Limbaugh was broadcasting that the ozone scare was a hoax.
Limbaugh runs the bad science laundry machine, taking information
from the least credible sources in the country and spinning it so
that it seems like a credible alternative viewpoint. Limbaugh
falls flat with his listeners on ozone. Many Americans are
concerned about the higher risks associated with ozone depletion
and the National Weather Service just introduced a daily
forecasting system to warn people about their risk level of
radiation exposure from the sun."
Ozone Action is a nationwide non-profit dedicated to informing
society about the human and environmental harm caused by UV
radiation and to halting the destruction of the ozone layer
through public education and activism.
END
--
+ 212-675-9690 NY TRANSFER NEWS COLLECTIVE 212-675-9663 +
+ Since 1985: Information for the Rest of Us +
+ GET INFO from ftpmail%transfr@blythe.org +
+ e-mail: nyt@blythe.org info: info@blythe.org +
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--------
From: Ollie North
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Preachers
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:53:08
--------
EID:86c4 1cf0b6a0
MSGID: 1:250/820 2e289d89
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DA1BC9
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to Ollie North:
ON>> 25,000 each, plus a pardon if you become President and I'm caught.
DC> How about 125,000, a full pardon for all current crimes, plus
DC> any crimes yet to be discovered, but only if I get elected!
Deal.
YOU ARE UNDER ARREST! You have the right to remain silent. Anything you
say
can and will be used against you. You have the right to a lawyer.
Ooops.
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Questions
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:55:09
--------
EID:3c5c 1cf0b6e0
MSGID: 1:250/820.666 2e289df0
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DA1BCB
PID: GED 2.41
Friday July 08 1994, Dan Ceppa writes to C. J. Henshaw:
PS>> Face it, without the Catholics, there would be no Christianity.
CJH>> They should be tried for crimes against humanity in abstentia.
DC> How about we crucify their god in effigy?
Errr, how do you crucify something that doesn't exist? I'll settle for
droppi
ng incenduries on the vatican't.
C. J. Henshaw
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Judith Bandsma
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:00:00
--------
EID:7f8e 1cf03000
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1f9
JB> DOESN'T CONTRADICT ITSELF? Thank you very much for my laugh of the
JB> day. All 4 of the major Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John)
JB> contradict not only each other but themselves in places. Then there
are
JB> the writings of Paul which contradict the teachings of Jesus. That's
JB> just a small portion of the NT. The OT is even worse.
JB> Subsidiary giggle....the fact that this message comes from a BBS
JB> system named for a Greatful Dead tune.
Please provide me with the chapters and verses that you believe are in
conflict with each other. I have read the Bible all my life, and though
I
am not a "Bible scholar", I am not aware of any contradictions.
I think you are making an empty claim; and I'd like you to prove it.
... The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Psalms 14:1
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:06:01
--------
EID:5498 1cf030c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fa
CL> ok, where in bible can you find a word about viruses?
If you will be specific as to what you are asking, I'll look it up. I mean
are you refering to the cause of viruses, the cure for them, what???
I will be happy to spend the time to research anything you want to know.
I
am not saying that the Bible is going to give the secret formula for the
cure for AIDS or something. It does talk about why we get these sicknesses,
and how to avoid them. It also talks about healing....
I must say, that of all the people I talk to, you are my favorite. You
haven't sunk to becomming abusive yet, and I appreciate that.
Believe it or not, I only have the best interest of these people at heart.
So, the abuse and profanity is difficult for me to put up with.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to your reply....
Doug
... All scripture is given by inspiration of God. II Tim. 3:16
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:11:02
--------
EID:e72a 1cf03160
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fb
CL> there have been many liars in the churches for the duration of
CL> history, then, only people you may call true christians were just few
CL> saints, but here's my point, it isn't necessary to be a christian to
CL> be a saint, instead of the bible, you just use your own ethics,
I understand that. It is NOT necessary to be a Christian to be a decent
person. With that I agree.
Christians are simply people who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour; and
chosen to *TRY* to live their lives according to scriptural principles.
But, my statement still remains true. Whether you believe the Bible or
not does not negate the fact that it is the final authority on what is or
is
not a *Christian* action. It is the yardstick for our faith.
The Bible clearly states that we are to tuen the other cheek, love one
another. and so on and so on.... So, anyone who is performing acts of
violence, and calling themselves a Christian is a liar; and I would not
want the actions of that person to be used as an example of my faith.
Doug
... He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 John 4:8
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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--------
From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:17:03
--------
EID:0f00 1cf11220
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fc
I am going to look up the answers to you questions, so I can respond with
scripture. i will get back to you as soon as I have them all. Probably
a day or two.
By the way, those were good questions; but I already know there is a
scriptural answer for most of them. The others we just have to answer with
supposition, and believe that there was a purpose. It is arrogant of us
to
assume that we should be able to understand every thought that runs through
the mind of God. He passed on what he wanted us to know; the rest I'll
ask
him in person one day.
I'll do my best to answer you. You also must understand that if i can't
answer a question, that doesn't mean that there isn't an answer; it just
means
that I don't know it...
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:22:04
--------
EID:b9b5 1cf112c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fd
I'm afraid I must humbly admit that I have no answers for your questions.
You are dealing with an area that I have little understanding of. I will
pass your questions on to a local Bible College; if they respond to me,
I'll
let you know what they said.
Before you gloat, and call me names, let me say that I freely admit having
lost this particuliar battle. I simply don't know.
I feel as though I am making a mistake by entering into these areas anyway;
because I am so poorly educated in math and science. I ought to be talking
about things I have a thourough understanding of (Of course, that was your
line wasn't it...).
Anyway, I'll see what I can do.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:26:05
--------
EID:e3ef 1cf03340
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1fe
SS> There are plenty of us in here that have read the bible and
SS> individuals like John Musselwhite and Simon Ewins are very knowledgable
SS> of the bible and _other_ sources. You have stated that you have done
SS> virtually no reading outside of the Bible.
SS> Now, how can *you* argue against something that you have never read?
I never stated that. In fact I rarely read the Bible anymore. I do read
about 1 book a week, topics vary tremendously. I have a working knowledge
of the Bible; but I am not a BIble scholar. I simply have faith for that
which I do not already know.
Doug Brewer
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: The book.
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:28:06
--------
EID:b9b5 1cf03380
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a1ff
SS> You can use anything you want, but what you present will be examined
SS> critically by others.
That's the beauty of it, they're not my words. So be as critical as you
like. I assume you're prepared to tell me that these people have no idea
what they're talking about; in spite of their credentials....
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Bill Ward
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 17 Jul 94 02:28:07
--------
EID:d2f2 1cf11380
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a200
BW> I was trying to point out the logical flaws in your stated position,
I
BW> guess I didn't do to well, as you still seem to think that you can
BW> have your cake and eat it too. Ah well everyone has their own world
BW> picture, and tis rather futile to try to impose our picture onto the
BW> mind of another. I'm sorry to say that I do not believe in GOD[s], or
BW> your Bible and therefore would have serious problems accepting it's
BW> Judeo/Christian system of morals and ethics. For example; what is
BW> "moral depravity"? thats a slippery moral ethical question that I don't
BW> have an answer for, but Christians say that they do have an answer,
God
BW> told them, and they wrote it in the Bible. I have no evidence as to
the
BW> veracity of this claim, but I am supposed to accept it via "faith".
But
BW> my own intellect insists on debateing these issues of "morality" and
I
BW> can't see how Jack wanting to put his penis in John's anus, and John
BW> wants Jack to do it, is anybody else's buisiness. You or I might be
BW> personaly disgusted by this behavior, but where is the the proof that
BW> your or my personal moral code is inherantly superior to those who do
BW> indulge in these things? My own moral and ethical code simply say's
"do
BW> unto others as you would have them do unto you", this is not from a
BW> religious point of view, simply from a rational point of view. I do
BW> not wish to have you restrict my freedom, so therefore I don't try to
BW> restrict yours.
BW> Come, let us reason together.
I liked this post better than your first one.
Here is the bottom line. People get hung up[ on the rules and regulations
and neglect to see the real deal. Christianity is about Salvation. Period.
The desire to adhere to the rules comes naturally to those who truly love
God.
We are not about forcing anything on anyone. We just point out that the
world is in trouble, and we have the answer.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Joseph Perez
Sub: Re: Scientific support for Christianity
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:36:08
--------
EID:89a9 1cf03480
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a201
JP> I thought I already had! Look, I agree with the
JP> scientific model and I also believe in God, but I just don't see that
JP> your points prove any of the claims you make for them. That's not to
JP> say that I don't agree with you, just that I think you need to polish
JP> your definations a bit more.
I was merely making a statement to people who say that science does not
support the existence of God; by quoting a scienctist who says different.
That was all. I proved, in the words of a scientist, that some scientists
through their work, have come to a belief in God.
However, any polish you'd like to add, would be appreciated.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: MIKE PRATHER
Sub: Re: "heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 06:38:09
--------
EID:c0a9 1cf034c0
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a202
MP> What you feel is emotion. I don't deny the existence of emotion. I
MP> challenge you to show evidence that the emotion you feel comes from
MP> some power outside of yourself.
What is the source of emotion? How does a random, protoplasmic organism
begin to "love" it's mate? What is the source of love and hate, etc...
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
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From: Doug Brewer
To: Chris Lee
Sub: Answers to your questions
Date: 17 Jul 94 05:20:10
--------
EID:22b8 1cf12a80
MSGID: 1:13/220 6313a203
Okay, I'm going to try to answer the ones that I can answer quickly; and
I will continue to try to find the answers to the others. I hope that these
answers will help you to see that God does have a purpose for everything.
I am praying that through our dialogue, at some time, you will come to
accept Jesus as your Saviour. I think that if you were to do that, then
alot
of the things you question would be made clear to you through the Holy Spirit.
Regarding that; I do believe in the Trinity. In the same way that we are
physical, mental, and spiritual; I believe that God is three in one. This
is consistent with the scriptures stating that man was made in the image
of
God. In this example, God the Father would be the mind; Jesus would be
the
body; and the Holy Spirit would be the spirit of God's being. When you
view
it in that light, the Trinity is not hard to accept or understand.
But, let me get to your questions:
1) Why did God kill everyone with the Flood except Noah and his family?
- Genesis 6:5-8 "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of Man was great on
the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil
continually. And Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and
it grieved him in his heart. And Jehovah said, i will destroy Man, whom
I have created, from the earth--from man to cattle, to creeping things,
and to fowl of the heavens; for I repent that I have made them. But Noah
found favour in the eyes of Jehovah."
2) Why did God regard some animals as filthy (actual word was unclean)
- I don't know, but I will try to find someone who is more knowledgeable
than I am to explain it to me.
3) Why did God kill the first-borns of all Egyptians?
- Exodus 4:22-23 " And thou shalt say to Pharoah, Thus saith Jehovah:
Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to thee, Let my son go, that
he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill
thy son, thy firstborn."
See.. Pharoah refused to let God's son go, so the penalty for that was
that it cost him his son (or the firstborns of all his nation).
4) Why did God renounce Lucifer....?
Lucifer did not challenge God for an instance. he led 1/3 of the Angels
in a revolt against God, and for that he was cast out. He was a traitor,
and he was treated as such...
5) Did the animals get kicked out at the same time as Adam and Eve?
- The Bible does not conclusively say. That is something we assume. The
Bible des say that God told Adam that the earth would be cursed for his
sake. So, we assume that includes the animal kingdom.
Also, regarding the gene pool problem... The Bible does not say that
Adam and Eve were alone. It says, male and female created he them... then
in Chapter 3 in describes the creation of Adam and the fact that he had
no
mate. So, it is reasonable to assume that God made others, and then he
made
Adam in his image. This would also account for why the Jews are "God's
people". Perhaps they are the direct descendents of Adam??? This is
just a thought, I don't know for sure.
6) Why is God so defensive.....
- God does not challenge others to defy him. The Bible says in several
places, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God". He only ever encourages
people to test him. he says, "Try me, and see if I will not pour you out
a blessing...." "I am the Lord thy God. Is anything to hard for me?"
He never encourages rebellion. In fact, that was the purpose of the Flood,
the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah (sp), and various other times when
God punished societies.
7) Why doesn't God do something good for us?
- Well, who exactly is "us"?
If you mean the U.S.- we have had the most economically, technologically,
and medically advanced society in history. We have freedoms that the
entire world is jealous of. I believe that is because of two things.
1) we were founded on Christian principles, and as they are being destroyed
so is our society... 2) We support Israel, and we are blessed for it.
If you mean you and I- God has healed my body. He has blessed my family
financially. He has brought peace to my parents marriage which nearly
ended in divorce, and which they both will admit turned around when they
started going back to church and serving God.
As for you; he has provided you with a chance to find peace and salvation.
He has sent his son to die for you, and to be raised from the dead so that
you would not have to die. AND he sent me to you to give you the info.
If you were to accept Jesus, things would begin to happen in your life.
This I know from experience. See, Christianity is not an idea, it's a
lifestyle. It is the guiding force behind the lives of millions.
You scoff at it now; but I pray that one day you will come to see the
truth that is being presented to you. God loves you, and he CAN make a
difference in your life.
8) Where does the Bible say that Jesus is God?
- All over the place!!! But, I will cite two. If you want to look up more
I'll be happy to give you references.
1) John 1:1 "In the beginnig was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God". - the Word is a name for Jesus
2) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten]
Son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish, but have everlasting
life".
9) Why are there so many rich preachers?
- For the same reason that there are rich people in any other field. They
do their job well. Most preachers received a percentage of the offerings
as a salary, since preaching is their full-time job. As their church grows
bigger, so does the offering, and so does their salary.
This is not to say that there are not preachers who steal the money (ie.
Jim Bakker) but they are the exception, not the rule.
And why shouldn't God's people be rich? If my father made the world, and
all that is in it; shouldn't I be able to have as much of that as I can
come by in a legal and moral fashion? Call it an inheritance....
I'm sure you will have a response, and it probably won't be the one
I'd like to see. But, I remain here for the purpose of talking to you.
And I mean YOU. I think I am here (on this echo) for that reason. The
others are just distractions; but I believe that I was lead to this echo
to bring the Word to you Chris. So, I'm gonna keep trying. I hope you
uderstand.
Doug
--- Stop Abortion NOW!
* Origin: Brokedown Palace BBS Newport News Va. 1-804-591-8537 (1:13/220.0)
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:03:12
--------
EID:cba1 1cf10060
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e28ad4e2
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 2e26b50c
PID: GE 1.02+
Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
PS> Margie, I'm afraid you've been warned before about posting
PS> tracts in here. I thought you said you'd "learned your
PS> lesson" and were going to "change your attitude."
You forgot that members of the Christian cult are forgiven for their
mistakes. That does not, however, mean that they will not repeat
them. Some belief system. Duh! I should become a Christian murderer.
(Pun intended). Then I could murder Christians, be forgiven, and
_still_ go to the fantasy known as heaven.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: The Cosmic Star Goat
Sub: Lookie!
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:34:54
--------
EID:315f 1cf16c40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a902
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e2796fd
PID: GE 1.02+
The Cosmic Star Goat wrote in a message to All:
TCSG> Steve Winter
TCSG> Sysop, PreRapture BBS
TCSG> Owner and Operator of the PRIME Network
Hey, Mr. Goat. Have you ever considered joining the PRIME Network
just for a couple of weeks? It wouldn't cost that much and a goat
like you could raise some hell (so to speak).
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Mr. Pat, the fake...
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:38:06
--------
EID:31b7 1cf16cc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a903
REPLY: 1:109/388.0 e27b31f0
PID: GE 1.02+
Marguerite Kendall wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
MK> I know, Pat Robertson paid a surprise visit to your
MK> television set, with a special invitation for you to listen,
MK> only you refused it.
MK> He had a special message for you, only you turned it down.
I saw one of his messages once. He held some money in his hand and
prayed to God to increase the amount of donations coming in. Have
you ever bothered to do some research on this guy? Maybe you should
see where all the donations are going.
MK> * Origin: The Shephard's Board; Alexandria, VA (1:109/388)
^
JFC!
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: Charles Baldo
Sub: Creation of life
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:40:36
--------
EID:ec7a 1cf16d00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e296a904
REPLY: 1:2613/206 629795e2
PID: GE 1.02+
Charles Baldo wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
CB> Religion is mans relationship with God. I beleive Shinto or
CB> possibly Taoist See God in trees also. God is everywhere
CB> including trees. If you find him there then hey.. God bless
CB> the trees and enjoy your relationship with them.
Religion is a set of beliefs, not a relationship. Your relationship
with your god may be a part of your religion but it is not your entire
religion.
God does not live in the Douglas Firs of Oregon. They are trees, they
are huge, they are green, and they are beautiful. The wind also makes
nice, soothing sounds when blowing through their branches.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: You, Johnny.
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:14:04
--------
EID:d7cd 1cf181c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e0
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA457F64
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Ray Talley:
JP> Thanks for sharing your (worthless to me) opinions.
How come everytime someone pokes a hole in anything you say you
reply with something as worthless as this?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: consider this
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:15:10
--------
EID:cd4c 1cf181e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e1
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA458B9B
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
JP> Do animals demonstrate any concern for morality ?
JP> Do you think wolves ever debate the morality of eating
JP> sheep ?
Do you think humans every consider morality when eating cows,
pigs, chickens, and/or sheep?
JP> If you mean Creatorless "evolution",
JP> then all of life is just a big accident.
It is possible, no?
BTW bumblebutt, evolution has nothing to do with creation. When
are you going to start to grasp this fact?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: thermodynamics
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:19:24
--------
EID:1730 1cf18260
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e2
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45B596
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
JP> Matter over time does the opposite of what it took to Create the life
JP> and the universe we now observe.
HP> Bzzzt. There's plenty of ordered energy left in the universe
HP> yet.
HP> Take a look at that big hydrogen lamp in the sky, that's some of it.
JP> Non sequitur.
Are you:
A) Dumb
B) Stupid
C) Ignorant
D) All of the above
Which one is it?
You were debunked with the fact that the sun exists. You replied
with a "nothing." Why do you continue to deny any arguments that
contradict your beliefs?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: JFK and JFC
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:22:52
--------
EID:bb1f 1cf182c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e3
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45C051
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Mike Hill:
JP> I predict/prophecy in Jesus name that: John F.Kennedy will publicly
JP> reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the final,
JP> supreme "beast" of the Revelation. This fulfillment will confirm the
JP> truth of Jesus Christ and His Revelation.
Does it bother you that JFK lies in a tomb and was declared dead by
a medical doctor? The shit that you continue to spew is so unbelievable
that I have a hard time believing that you are even for real. If you
are, then this is really, really sad.
BTW, when is JFK coming back and where is he hiding?
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:30:46
--------
EID:21b3 1cf183c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e7
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA45FCCF
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Dan Ceppa:
DC> ... "Faith is not wishing to know what is true." -Nietzsche
JP> How long WAS Nietzsche raving insane before he died ?
JP> Just asking. WBW, John
Have you ever considered to take a look at yourself, fundy-man?
Anyone that believes JFK is alive and that JFK is also satan
needs to be checked into the nearest hospital.
---
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From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Reply
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:27:32
--------
EID:d97d 1cf18360
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e5
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA46DFCE
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Martin Goldberg:
JP> This "fundy" doesn't care what the laws made by men
JP> are.
So you totally disregard the laws of the United States?
---
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--------
From: Ryan Shaw
To: John Prewett
Sub: Miracles
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:28:32
--------
EID:85de 1cf18380
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 e29913e6
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA46EAFA
PID: GE 1.02+
John Prewett wrote in a message to Matt Giwer:
JP> God created life, which I appreciate.
Do you have any proof? Please present it if you do. Thanks
in advance.
---
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From: David Strickland
To: Frank Waring
Sub: Deception
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:22:54
--------
EID:c851 1cf0aac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.666@fidonet.org 2e284ff1
REPLY: 1:123/44 53bd4eec
Frank Waring Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom to All,
About Deception.
FW> These so-called bible prophets, are nothing more than Zionist
FW> stooges. They would like you to believe, that the Pope is the
FW> antichrist, when in fact, the Jew is --
FW> 1jn.2:22,jn.8:44,rv.2:9,3:9. This is all part of the
FW> International Zionist Conspiracy, to divide The Church, and
FW> take-over America.
Fuck, YET another CONSPIRACY theory! Don't you guys have anything better
to d
o with yourselves than to sit around and dream up half-assed conspiracy
theori
es?
David
--- GoldED/P32 2.42.G0214
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: The Cosmic Star Goat
Sub: Lookie!
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:52:16
--------
EID:004e 1cf1be80
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2e29c471
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e2796fd
PID: GED386 G0614 1554US1
Saturni dies July 16 1994, Dixit The Cosmic Star Goat ad All:
TCSG> Look what I stumbled across in a Trade paper....yes, it is legit
TCSG> PreRapture Solutions
TCSG> 1806 Albany Street
TCSG> Durham, NC 27705-3134
Look in the back of Computer Shopper...he's been known to "advertise".
From
what I've seen, most can't afford his "price" and all the extras that come
wit
h it.
--- GoldED 2.42.G0614+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Here's a keeper
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:18:50
--------
EID:e4eb 1cf09240
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c5
REPLY: 1:365/200.0 2e23a0d9
THREE for the quote file in just one message. I'm beginning to think some
of
our fundies have been out in the summer sun too long.
Nathan Dutton wrote in a message to Simon Ewins:
ND> In 18:9 it was true what Jesus said.
ND> Remember we need to count the supernatural in all of
ND> this as well.
ND> Jesus was the first to rise himself from the dead,
ND> all other occurances happened from Gods power
ND> I don't think John made it up. The answer of why this
ND> was done this way is probably God wanted that way.....
..."Every once in a while, stop and enjoy an ice cream cone." -Einstein
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: HOLYSMOKE FAQ - HOLYF
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:31:11
--------
EID:5258 1cf09be0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c0
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 43c43739
Martin Goldberg wrote in a message to Edward Hopkins:
EH> Robert was just making it up to make fun of religion.
EH> People
EH> all over the world know that God exists.
MG> In Columbus's time, people all over the world knew that the
MG> earth was flat.
And some fundies still know it's flat.
...Baptists don't make love standing up. It's too close to dancing.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Unity
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:44:54
--------
EID:dac3 1cf09d80
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c6
REPLY: 1:250/820.666 2e233fc5
C. J. Henshaw wrote in a message to MIKE PRATHER:
CJH> Wednesday July 06 1994, MIKE PRATHER writes to JOHN PREWETT:
MP> I've found that when someone says they're non-denominational, they're
MP> about as far out of reality as is possible.
CJH> This describes John 'JFK will rise from the dead' Prewett
CJH> quite well. Yes, he does 'think' JFK will rise from the
CJH> dead and become the 'antichrist.'
Actually, John thinks JFK is still alive.
...Fundamentalism means never having to open one's mind.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Becoming God
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:01:30
--------
EID:8b53 1cf0a820
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c2
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
JO> So where is he? Is the CIA hiding him? Shacked up in
JO> Havana with Fidel? Did you believe that picture in one of
JO> the tabloids a few years ago showing Jackie with a grey
JO> haired JFK? Was that the source of your prophecy?
JJH> Modern technology (in the form of image editing software)
JJH> sure has been a boon to the Weekly World News.
JJH> Some of those faked photographs are works of art.
And no doubt making them credible to those who believe in their stories.
I'm s
urprized John hasn't cited the scene form _Forrest Gump_ showing Tom Hanks
wit
h JFK as 'proof' that JFK is still alive. :-}
JJH> Beats the hell out of the days when "cut and paste" was
JJH> something done with sissors and glue.
Yeah, but the old ones were so obvious it was comical.
..."Facts are stupid things" - R. Reagan
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: evidence???
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:21:28
--------
EID:889a 1cf0aaa0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c3
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 608e6225
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
jon> If you had just stayed home in your closet, they would never
jon> have known that you are Black, (oh wait, that wasn't it),
jon> Jewish?, ... I forgot, what is your crime? It's just too
jon> hard to try to think this way, I'm running out of sarcasm.
jon> ;=}
FR> Amen on all fronts. Very well said.
Thank you.
FR> There are Christian
FR> groups which are activly trying to make homosexuality a
FR> crime punishable by death.
Along with adultry. Take a moment and think the unthinkable, and consider
wha
t would be next if they did. No sex with the lights on? Only during 'approve
d' hours and for an 'approved' duration? Limitations on language used?
The l
ist is endless. I was told that there was a law on the books in Pennsylvania
that classified any sexual activity other that the "missionary position",
with
the male superior, as an "unnatural act". I'm sure some of our fundies
would
sure like to see that one resurrected.
FR> They are gathering and
FR> consolidating their forced in Colorado for the past few
FR> years.
"On January 7, the _Gazette Telegraph_ newspaper of
Colorado Springs, Colorado, decided to survey religious organizations
which have moved into that city, especially since 1990.
It appears that the executive vice president of the Greater
Colorado Springs Economic Development Corporation had been busy
recruiting such organizations for the city." American Atheist
Newsletter March, 1994
Wonder just who pays that dude's salary.
...It's a scary feeling when you see B8 00 4C CD 21, and know what it does.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Sandy Doonan
Sub: hat
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:05:21
--------
EID:6dd9 1cf0b0a0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e286e5c4
REPLY: 1:102/890.7@FidoNet 609641b2
Sandy Doonan wrote in a message to John Prewett:
RT> that you favor these types of simplistic explanations in place of
RT> reason or reasoning.
jp> I haven't seen any reasoning from you
jp> that leads to anywhere worth going.
SD> But then your "reasoning" includes John F. Kennedy being
SD> alive, I noticed.
Wanna bet when Dr. Kissinger dies John will deny he's dead?
...Every absurdity has a champion to defend it.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Fresh fundy meat
Date: 17 Jul 94 05:05:03
--------
EID:a0ef 1cf128a0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b0
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e27185f
Shelby Sherman wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
SS> 13 Jul 94 01:39, Jack O'Neill wrote to Marty Leipzig:
SS> Rick Gordon uttered this:
RG>> Now, some geologists feel that at least some of the major
RG>> seismic disturbances which are evidenced in various parts of
RG>> the world at the Cenozoic levels are best explained as
RG>> triggered by the flood. [...]
SS> Thanks for saving this quote.
It's tucked away with, almost :-{, every other post in this echo that has
made
it to my system since late May.
SS> Now he cannot reasonably deny
SS> that he he said it, that is unless he claims that Satan made
SS> him say it.
I won't be surprised when the day comes that one of these fundies thinks
my ta
pe drive is a device of their satan god. ;=}
..."You did *what* in my name?!?" -- Jesus
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Pompous?
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:14:10
--------
EID:636e 1cf161c0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b7
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 270f9d00
Hector Plasmic wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
>SS> You know, I asked the same thing and got no answer. I've
>SS> asked many questions of the Rev. Charles Ray and gotten no
>SS> answers. Why do we bother?
JO>*I* certainly don't plan to hold my breath waiting for an answer.
JO>My favorite question to Revolving Charlie is the one about women
JO>preachers in his church. I, and two or three others, asked him to
JO>justify that in light of the passage from their holey writ about
JO>women keeping silent and not to teach.
HP> Unless the Ass o' godders have had a fairly recent change of
HP> heart, they don't allow women to be preachers. Note the TV
HP> relationship between Tammy Faye and Jimbo Bakker -- that was
HP> about as high as women could get in that particular cult
HP> last time I checked.
These statments by two of our ass o' godders would seem to indicate otherwise.
----------------------
From: Jerry Randall
To: Charlie Ray 19 Jun 94 00:19:58 Subject:Ta
bernacle
[...]
I am in the Oklahoma Dist. of the Assembly of GOD. I reside and minister
in s
ection 10. I am recognized as a certified minster by both the General Council
and the Dist. Council. How about you? ....Rev. Jerry
----------------------
From: Jerry Randall
To: Rick Gordon 21 Jun 94 01:56:52 Subject:Ta
bernacle
You're welcome I hope it helps. If you still have questions, my Pastor
takes
a great interest in the tabernacle, I'd be happy to relay questions to her.
Rev. Jerry [^^^]
----------------------
And then Charlie clinched it with:
----------------------
From: Charlie Ray
To: Jerry Randall 23 Jun 94 22:40:00 Subject:Ta
bernacle
[...]
The senior pastor of your church is a woman, Jerry? If so, that is great.
It just proves to the world that Pentecostals are not prejudiced against
wome
n ministers:)
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
----------------------
J.J., Scot, and I have asked Charlie how they can do this when their hol[e]y
b
ook says that women are to "be in silence" and not to teach. I haven't
seen h
im answer yet. Hit your key and we'll ask him again.
...Thou shalt pay homage to the god favored by the majority.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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From: Jack O'Neill
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Women
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:45:53
--------
EID:b7b0 1cf16da0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b2
Hello Charlie,
This has been asked of you before and if you replied Fido must have eaten
your
answer. :-} So let's try again.
On the 23rd of June you said, in a message to Jerry Randall:
"The senior pastor of your church is a woman, Jerry? If so, that is
great. It just proves to the world that Pentecostals are not prejudice
d
against women ministers:)"
How can your church allow women to be ministers in light of the following
pass
ages from your bible?
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedien
ce, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their
husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(1st Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 14)
11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transg
ression.
(The First Epistle to Timothy, Chapter 2)
How is a woman able to minister in a christian church if she is to "keep
silen
ce in the churches" and "it is not permitted unto them to speak"?
Thanks
...Moral: Term used to tell others you're better than them.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Jack O'Neill
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Reply
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:31:55
--------
EID:6998 1cf173e0
MSGID: 1:3653/888.0 e28f83b8
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 43de0cdd
Martin Goldberg wrote in a message to Jack O'Neill:
MG> They claim it to be the disease of homos from thie all
MG> powerful and loving god. why not just snap your fingers,
MG> kill the homos and leave the heteros alone. that is, if
MG> you're a loving god that likes to KILL people.
I wish they would explain why the U.S. military, with all of it's ineptitude
a
nd human frailties, can _usually_ wipe out a single building of it's choice,
b
ut their omnipotent god thingy can't send a plague, earthquake, tornado,
flood
, hurricane, drought, or whatever without killing so many 'good guys'.
MG> membrane makeup). It used to be that they always found at
MG> least one student (male or female) with "Intracellular Gram
MG> negative diplococci" the bell weather sign of Ghonnorrea.
Ah, the dedicated students performing extra-curricular research for one
of the
ir sexuality courses no doubt. :-}
...Never accept brownies from a proctologist.
--- timEd/2 1.00
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: SIGNSOF.TXT
Date: 15 Jul 94 07:04:53
--------
EID:acac 1cef3880
> Hello All!
> It will be a number tattooed on the right hand or forehead of every
> individual.
> not prefixed by '666' or its equivalent, they will not be in touch with
Interesting. But of doubtful accuracy.
Consider that those who go along with the coming thing,
have the mark of the beast (the character of satan) in
their brain.
They may not actively be against anyone (except God).
If they actively participate in killing the remnant,
they are said to have the mark in their hand.
More or less.
phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Matt Giwer
Sub: Re: law/grace
Date: 15 Jul 94 07:10:01
--------
EID:2aeb 1cef3940
> The Ten Commandments and all regulatory additions are hereby
> rescinded. The human race can handle anything they address
> without my help.
Seems like that part is here before your schedule! :)
Very few people can name the 10 C.
And most consider them ten suggestions.
phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: ask
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:48:44
--------
EID:ca85 1cf04600
> That would be tempting the Lord. I would not ask a selfish act
> out of a motive just to prove God's authenticy to you.
OK
Now tell me, when He asks us to be "bold" when approaching
His Mercy, what are we actually asking Him for?
Wisdom? How about healings?
I need ever so much more... phil
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Re: laws
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:58:25
--------
EID:5e3c 1cf04740
> RC Hey, everyone - it's time for Phil's favorite dead bitch
(Ellen Gould White, plagiarist)
to spew forth her paranoid stupidity:
> PM> Those who honor the Bible Sabbath will be denounced
> PM> as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral
> PM> restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and
> PM> calling down the judgments of God upon the earth.
> That's funny! Who do you know who has ever "denounced" those who
> take Saturdays off as "enemies of law and order?" Spit it out.
Provide your surface mail address, and I'll see if I can
locate an issue (rather far back) describing the chain-gangs
in (YES) Tennessee, for no other "crime" than above.
HOWsumEVER, the thrust of her statement is FUTURE...
Phil
PS Are you sure you are not over-valuing her contributions
in your entering remarks? hi :) Be careful not
to give her TOO MUCH credit...
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--------
From: Phil Morrison
To: All
Sub: Love sin?
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:08:39
--------
EID:75df 1cf04900
Or hate it?
*
* All true obedience comes from the heart.
* It was heart-work with Christ.
*
* And IF WE CONSENT,
* *************
* He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims,
* so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will,
* that when obeying Him
* we shall be but carrying out our own impulses.
* ****************
* The will, refined and sanctified,
* will find its highest delight in doing His service.
* ***************
* When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him,
* our life will be a life of continual obedience.
* *******************
* Through an appreciation of the character of Christ,
* through communion with God,
* sin will become hateful to us.
* ******* (egw)
*
Robert Curry has already expressed his high approval of
the lady author of DESIRE OF AGES. Some 100 years old.
phil
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--------
From: Michael Hardy
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: explore
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:14:59
--------
EID:e13f 1cf0b1c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270E8
-> MH> But, critical thinking tells me that I shouldn't necessarily
-> MH>dismiss someone else's experience just because I may not have had
-> MH>similar experience. It doesn't mean I should accept it uncritical
-> MH>either, but it does suggest that something *may* be going on wort
-> MH>exploring.
->
-> Okay, how does your "critical thinking" propose "exploring" a "person
-> experience" for which even the experiencer admits there is no evidenc
->
-> Did you think it through, Mike?
->
Talk to the person, decide whether he or she is stable and sane,
and then discuss the experience. Find out how many other people claim
similar experiences. Keep an open mind about the truth of the
experience.
Reserve judgment.
You would rather shout "Got any evidence?" And shut your mind to
the possibility that anything can be true that you, Hector Plasmic,
can't understand or perceive.
--- WM v3.10/93-0963
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From: Michael Hardy
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: real world
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:16:44
--------
EID:26ce 1cf0b200
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270E9
-> MH> By assuming you know what is the "real world,"
->
-> You don't? ROFL! It figures. What do you do, make up a new world
-> every morning? Or do you have mornings in your world? What color is
-> the sky in your world, Mike? Is it Earth or some other planet, or do
-> you just sort of float, ever wakeful, in your whimsically colored sky
->
-> Would you like an experiment to perform that might help you get a gri
-> on what the real world is? Any tall buildings in your world? Does
-> gravity work there?
->
You really are quite annoying.
It must be nice to know everything. There's so much less to learn.
Michael
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From: Michael Hardy
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: mithra
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:37:26
--------
EID:02d1 1cf0b4a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270EA
This is what you call parallels? For a minute there I was afraid you
were going to come up with something challenging.
-> Originally Mithra was one of the lesser gods of the ancient Persian
-> pantheon, but he came to be regarded as the spiritual Sun, the heaven
-> Light, and the chief and also the embodiment of the seven divine spir
-> of goodness; and already in the time of Christ he had risen to be co-
-> with, though created by, Ormuzd (Ahura-Mazda), the Supreme Being [J.M
-> Robertson, /Pagan Christs/, p. 290.], and Mediator between him and ma
-> [Plutarch, /Isis et Osiris/, ch. 46; Julian, /In regem solem/, chs. 9
-> 21.]. He appears to have lived an incarnate life on earth, and in so
-> unknown manner to have suffered death for the good of mankind, an ima
-> symbolising his resurrection being employed in his ceremonies [Tertul
"Appears to have lived?" "Some unknown manner?"
-> Epistles and Gospels. Thus the designations of our Lord as the Daysp
-> from on High [Luke, i. 78.], the Light [2 Cor. iv. 6; Eph. v. 13, 14;
-> Thess. v. 5; etc.], the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi iv. 2; and much
-> in Christianity.], and similar expressions, are borrowed from or rela
-> to Mithraic phraseology.
->
Malachi was written at least four centuries before this religion
appeared on the Hebrew scene.
Images of light are found in Jewish thought as well, particularly
the Dead Sea Scrolls written by the Essenic Jews (and also predating
Mitraism's arrival on the scene.) There is no need to assume that
Mithras was the only place the metaphor could have come from.
Nor is there any reason to think that a borrowing of terms, if such
a thing took place, means borrowing of ideas.
The differences are as striking as the similarities. Jesus is also
called the Word (Logos) of God; son of Man; and a number of other
descriptive apellations. These did not come from Mithras.
-> Mithra was born from a rock [Firmicus, /De errore/, xxi.; etc.], as s
-> in Mithraic sculptures, being sometimes termed ``the god out of the
-> rock'', and his worship was always conducted in a cave; and the gener
-> belief in the early Church that Jesus was born in a cave is a direct
-> instance of the taking over of Mithraic ideas. The words of St. Paul
-> ``They drank of that spiritual rock ... and that rock was Christ'' [I
-> x. 4.] are borrowed from the Mithraic scriptures; for not only was Mi
Hm. Mithras was born from a rock. Jesus was born to a woman in a
stable. Yeah, I can see the similarities there, Fred. (not really)
Any support for the assertion that the early church believed Jesus
was born in a cave?
Also, any reason to think that being born *in* a cave is dervied
from a story of someone being born *from* a rock, any more than being
born in a stable?
I did find this detail in my own research of Mithras, and it didn't
strike me as a similarity at all.
-> supposed words of Jesus in regard to Peter --- ``Upon this rock I wil
-> build my church'' [Matt. xvi. 18.] --- was due to their approximation
-> the Mithraic idea of the /Theos ek Petras/, the ``God from the Rock''
-> Indeed, it may be that the reason of the Vatican hill at Rome being
-> regarded as sacred to Peter, the Christian ``Rock'', was that it was
-> already sacred to Mithra, for Mithraic remains have been found there.
->
That's an argument, not a parallel. (And not an especially
convincing argument, IMO.)
-> Christian idea. In later times the bull is interchangeable with a ra
-> but the zodiacal ram, Aries, which is associated with Mithra, was rep
-> by a lamb in the Persian zodiac [Bundahish, ii. 2.], so that it is a
-> which is sacrificed [Garucci, /Les Myste`res du Syn. Phrygien/, p. 3
-> as in the Paschal conception of Jesus. That this sacrifice had origi
-> a human victim, and that it later involved the idea of the sacramenta
-> death of a human being, is clear from the fact that the Church histor
-> Socrates, believed that human victims were still sacrificed in the
-> Mithraic mysteries down to some period before A.D. 360 [Socrates, /Ec
-> Hist.], bk. iii., ch. 2.].
->
-> Thus the paramount Christian idea of the sacrifice of the lamb of God
-> one with which every worshipper of Mithra was familiar; and just as M
Ha! The Christian idea of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb goes all
the way back to Exodus. The lamb has always been seen as the symbol of
God's perfect sacrifice in Hebrew thought and needs no help from
Mithrasim to explain the Jesus as Lamb imagery.
Part II of your post is in a separate post from me.
M.
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From: Michael Hardy
To: David Rice
Sub: twit list
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:44:16
--------
EID:3444 1cf0b580
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270EB
-> I've been twitting several folks in this echo for the past two
-> or three weeks, and it has helped cut back on the noise
-> considerably. Since the following have demonstrated -NO- value
-> in being read, they are excised from my reading. Sorry! It is
-> very likely that as the echo becomes even more crowded, I'll
-> add more names to the list. There just isn't time enough in
-> the day to respond to every idiot who begs for attention.
->
So you're only going to talk to people who agree with you, eh? That
should cut down on the chance of your accidentally learning something.
No matter -- those of us you have twitted will be spared the noise
you make, and that should make all our lives more peaceful.
M.
--- WM v3.10/93-0963
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From: Michael Hardy
To: David Rice
Sub: hey!
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:46:59
--------
EID:d073 1cf0b5c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470 86E270EC
-> SE> More's the pity that he didn't hit his head harder when he
-> SE> fell off his horse.
->
-> Then we would be speaking Arabic and bowing to Mecca five times
-> a day. Also, Johnny Mckinney, Michael Hardy, Dan Lafferty, Mark
-> Fox, Charlie Ray, John Prewett, Ken Wiens, Rick Gordon, Nathan
-> Dutton, Jesse C. Jones, John Jeanneault, Jim Staal, Andrew
-> Ruys, Marguerite Kendall, Arthur Biele, Jesse Hornbacher, Raoul
-> Newton, Charles Baldo, Deeann Gatchell, Ric Remington, Jerry
-> Randall, Shawn Swanner, Martin Riley, Charles Nagy, David
-> Stoddard,, Edward Hopkins, Bob Sewell, John Tait, Daniel
-> Hendry, etc., would "know in their heart" that Muhammet was the
-> Prophet of God and that Jesus is a Satanic lie. They would be
-> utterly convinced of the truth of Islam and Allah's
-> commandments.
->
Hey! I shouldn't be on this list. The implication is that the above
named are exclusionist Christians who think all non-Christians are
hellbound. I do not think that way, and I suspect a few of the others
you named do not either.
Kindly do not use such a broad brush.
Michael
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: David Rice
Sub: My Twit List
Date: 17 Jul 94 03:12:12
--------
EID:427f 1cf11980
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e28a1be
PID: GED G1219
Hello David!
Friday July 15 1994 11:56, David Rice wrote to All:
DR> BILL CONNER
DR> S.N. MOZUMDER
DR> STEVE BEDARD
DR> CHARLIE J. RAY
DR> CHARLIE RAY
DR> TED HOLDEN
DR> RICHARD THORNEYCROFT
DR> MIKE STAAB
DR> MOHAMMAD KHAN
DR> JOHNNY MCKINNEY
DR> MICHAEL HARDY
DR> JOHN JEANNEAULT
DR> MARK FOX
DR> CHARLIE RAY
DR> JOHN PREWETT
DR> JIM STAAL
DR> NATHAN DUTTON
DR> KEN WIENS
DR> MARGUERITE KENDALL
DR> DAN LAFFERTY
DR> DAVE OOSTERMAN
DR> JERRY RANDALL
DR> BOB SEWELL
DR> RAOUL NEWTON
DR> RIC REMINGTON
Maybe it would be easier to list the people who you don't consider to be
Twits
.
Ruby Tuesday
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From: Jack Roberts
To: All
Sub: Satan
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:52:00
--------
EID:ce35 1cf18680
PID: RA 2.02 22754
MSGID: 1:123/318 53c83796
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7703
Did you know that the UN is a Satanist organization, and they consider
Christians their primary enemy?
In the last days, Satan will seduce the nations of the world (NWO), prior
to
Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
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From: John Bilbao
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: evidence???
Date: 17 Jul 94 01:16:00
--------
EID:a3d5 1cf10a00
PID: RA 2.01 22701
MSGID: 1:135/368 53c723ea
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7684
Very Poetic J.J I assume you believe it is normal for a man to put his Dick
in another mans asshole , asshole.
... !edis gnorw eht morf siht ta gnikool era uoY
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Historical Jesus
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:13
--------
EID:7a8b 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c0
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to JESSE JONES on 07-13-94:
JM> Have you read "Jesus - An experiment in Christology" by Edward
JM> Schillebeeckx? It isn't an easy read, but he has some very
JM> interesting things to say.
No, I haven't, but I'll look for it, thanks.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 07:01
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Jesus a Pharisee?
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:14
--------
EID:ff3d 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c1
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to DOUG BREWER on 07-14-94:
JM> DB> As far as Jesus being a Pharisee, I've never heard that. You
JM>are
JM> Take a look at the relationships between the Pharisees (not
JM> Paul's Pharisees but the real ones) and you will see that nothing
JM> Jesus said disagrees with them... It DID disagree with the
JM> Sadducees, but that is to be expected.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Jesus's teaching
built on the Pharisees', and took them to another level. And it for
that reason, I think, that it is plausible to speculate that Jesus
himself was trained as a Pharisee.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 07:07
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From: Jesse Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: assumptions
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:15
--------
EID:138d 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c2
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting MARILYN BURGE to MICHAEL HARDY on 07-14-94:
MB>My Bible-believing, fundy friend checked out his Bible with notes
MB>and found out that the "original scripture" that was used to make
MB>it dated back only to 100 CE for the OT stuff in it. In other
MB>words, it very likely WAS rewritten by the early Christians. Check
MB>this one out with a Hebrew scholar, and you'll find out that ALL
MB>of the scriptures that are cited by Christians as precursors to
MB>the arrival of The Messiah have been altered in some way to APPEAR
MB>to be pointing to Jesus of Nazareth. Don't take my word for it; go
MB>find a Rabbi, and maybe you'll have a bit of understanding
MB>regarding why the Jews are still awaiting the arrival of The
MB>Messiah.
There you go again.
In all my readings, I have never seen any suggestion that
Christians had re-written the Old Testament. Scholars do believe that
Christians relied on mistakes in the Septuagint (which Christians did
not translate), including the famed "virgin" for "young woman"). And
many of the quotes of the OT found in the NT are used in, shall we say,
creative ways.
The Oxford Annotation to the Bible (1993) -- hardly an
evangelical work -- says that the Hebrew text of the OT you refer to was
produced by the Pharisees; earlier segments found at Qumran, as well as
earlier quotes from the Talmud, are all consistent with this text (the
"Masoretic Text."
Unless you have something more solid than the chronological
sequences, I suggest that *your* suggestion that Christians altered the
text of the OT is irresponsible and inflammatory.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 07:20
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From: Jesse Jones
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:15
--------
EID:db0e 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c3
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting PRESTON SIMPSON to MARGUERITE KENDALL on 07-15-94:
PS>Margie, I'm afraid you've been warned before about posting tracts in
PS>here. I thought you said you'd "learned your lesson" and were going
PS>to "change your attitude."
Are you now the Moderator?
Where in the Rules does it say no post can quote from other
materials? Or must be responsive to a specific post? Can no one start
a new thread? Can no one quote other material?
I think you are advocating a dangerous course of censorship here
which will only (God forbid!) bring HolySmoke to disrepute.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 07:24
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Dead Gods
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:16
--------
EID:6229 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c4
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to CHARLIE RAY on 07-13-94:
JM> Well, I'm not particularly interested in theology as I feel it is
JM> the product of an overworked imagination.
An "overworked imagination" is, IMHO, an oxymoron. But perhaps
this indicates why I have no interest in what passes for science in
these parts -- it is the product of an *underworked* imagination.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 07:29
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Letter of the Hebrews
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:16
--------
EID:ffd4 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c5
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to CHARLIE RAY on 07-14-94:
JM> CR> Perhaps you disagree with
JM> CR> the 1st chapter of John? How about the epistle to the Hebrews?
JM> Yes... I disagree with both of them. John is purely a theological
JM> statement with little resemblance to the facts, and of course,
JM> you know my opinion of Paul the mythmaker...
You don't believe Paul wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews, do you?
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 08:44
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Theology
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:17
--------
EID:bbf6 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c6
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to CHARLIE RAY on 07-14-94:
JM> As I've mentioned many times, theology is for the superstitious,
?!?!?!? Theology has nothing to do with the supernatural claims
of religion, nor with its historicity. You think Paul Tillich is
superstitious? Richard Niebuhr? Rosemary Rueter? Hans Kung?
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 08:47
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Paul, Jesus, you, and me
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:17
--------
EID:09f2 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c7
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to CHARLIE RAY on 07-14-94:
JM> CR> Why did the four Gospels portray him as divine?
JM> To conform with Paul's opinions... Since I have grave doubts
JM> about their originality, they are just stories.
It is, wouldn't you agree, sheer speculation not subscribed to
by any scholarly consensus to say that Paul influenced the gospels.
Luke perhaps shows some similarities, which is consistent with Acts'
accounts of Paul and his relationship to Luke. There are indeed many
scholars who believe that the gospels and the church as it developed in
the first century are at odds with Jesus's own teaching, but even those
scholars do not attribute that difference to Paul.
JM> CR> The Johannine community obviously understood him to be
JM> CR> divine apart from the corpus of Pauline materials. How do you
JM>account
JM> CR> for that?
JM> More superstition.
To dismiss it as "more superstition," however, is to miss what
it may tell us about the development of Christianity in these early
years. The fourth gospel is a fascinating glimpse into a unique
community, and many current studies suggest it may have a greater
authenticity than has been previously supposed.
JM> To explain my earlier statement, Jesus tried to get people to
JM> understand that in one of the most segregated societies on earth
JM> ALL people were equal. Paul tried to tell everyone that only
JM> through salvation would everyone be equal. I have great respect
JM> for Jesus' teachings (when we can separate it from Paul's), but
JM> absolutely none for Saul of Tarsus.
It is true that Jesus preached a radical egalitarianism and
inclusiveness. He also, however, preached a radical spirituality,
grace, and apocalypse. I myself believe that Paul's teachings of
justification by faith are well-rooted in Jesus's teachings, and
probably more authentic than much that we find in the gospels, including
the nativity stories and the post-resurrection appearances.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 09:00
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From: Jesse Jones
To: Don Martin
Sub: Fourth gospel
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:18
--------
EID:ae36 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c8
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting DON MARTIN to CHARLIE RAY on 07-15-94:
DM> Add to that the fact that John is the most "mystical" of the
DM>gospellers, more interested in dealing in matters divine than in
DM>confining himself to more mundane things, and the door is more than
DM>a little ajar for operations of the imagination. At least Matthew,
DM>Mark and Luke attempted to write material with some semblance to an
DM>historic account. Being an actual (in the sense of physically
DM>present) "eyewitness" is rather less important to John, who would
DM>doubtless have been satisfied to "be there in spirit". In fact,
DM>such "witness" is more in keeping with his character and likely to
DM>have been regarded by him as equal (if not superior) to being there
DM>in the flesh.
Don, I think this is a good description of the fourth gospel. I
don't agree with what I take is your conclusion that the synoptics are
for this reason of more use, but still I think you have accurately
captured the essence of the difference.
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 09:04
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From: Jesse Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Thick and ordinary
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:03:18
--------
EID:66fa 1cf16860
MSGID: 1:135/71 638d12c9
PID: OLMS 01.51.05 [PRSBN46N]
Quoting JOHN MUSSELWHITE to CHARLIE RAY on 07-13-94:
JM> JM> However, more people hear a song or tune written by
JM> JM> Lennon/McCartney every day than would hear the words written
JM>by Jesus
Oh, so you were talking about Paul *McCartney*, not Paul of
Tarsus?!?
JM> CR> I haven't heard a Beatles tune in over a year, while I have read
JM> You lead a sheltered life, Charlie... You can't ride an elevator,
JM> listen to commercials or even walk down most streets without
JM> hearing a snippet of a tune written by L&M.
JM> CR> population is Christian, I suspect that more people hear
JM> CR> Scripture daily that those who hear a Beatles song, especially
JM>since the Beatles
JM> CR> are mostly a Western phenomenon. Soon they will be relegated
JM>to the
JM> CR> forgotten past, noting particularly the need for fads and trends
JM> CR> in contemporary Western societies.
JM> Just like Mozart, Beethoven and Gershwin...
Myself, I make it a point every day both to read some scripture
and to listen to some Beatles' tunes!
Jesse Jones
Miami, FL
07/17/94 09:11
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From: Dan Lafferty
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Nutball Scums #2, 3 and four
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:00:02
--------
EID:d72b 1cf04000
MSGID: 1:141/1108 2e27956b
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 2e25ec30
Hello Preston!
14 Jul 94, Preston Simpson writes to Dan Lafferty:
PS>> Worked for God, didn't it? After all, he arrived on the scene,
PS>> announced his presence, and demanded that he be worshipped, or else.
DL>> References, if you please. I do not recall ANY demands. He came and
DL>> taught. Nowhere does it mention a temper tantrum when some refused.
DL>> Dan
PS> Genesis 2:16- And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree
o
f
PS> the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge
PS> of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou
PS> eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
PS> Not exactly a command to be worshipped, but it is indeed a command to
PS> avoid a certain behavior and follow God. It is not a request. If God
had
PS> indeed wanted A&E not to eat of the tree, he would have been well-advised
PS> not to put it there at all.
Not a command to be worshipped at all. Adam and Eve were innocent "children"
before they partook and they were meant to. The fall occured when they
partoo
k. What about the completely contradictory commandments that they recieved?
They could not be fruitful and multiply untill they had the knowledge and
they
could not have the knowledge with out "dying", which they did when they
were
kicked out of the presence of G-d.
PS> There are plenty of references to God ordering the Israelites to smite
th
e
PS> "unrighteous" or doing it himself. Or what of this:
PS> II Chronicles 28:19 For the Lord brought Judah low because of Ahaz king
o
f
PS> Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the Lord.
PS> Looks like a case of "Worship me or else."
He also told chastized Jonah for his anger about the destruction of Nineveh
no
t comming to pass.
PS> The Bible, particularly the OT (but the NT is not excluded) is peppered
PS> with cases of God smiting some people or other for not worshipping him.
See above.
Dan
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From: Dan Lafferty
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: jesus, man!
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:31:03
--------
EID:544d 1cf0b3e0
MSGID: 1:141/1108 2e28602b
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2e250fb7
Hello Tyler!
14 Jul 94, Tyler A. Wunder writes to Dan Lafferty:
TAW> Do you read this echo on occassion, Dan, or do you simply
TAW> rent space here? The Testimonium Flavium is such a widely accepted
TAW> Christian interpolation that even Christian scholars who think there
is
a
TAW> kernel of legitimacy to the passage avoid using it because it has been
s
o
TAW> well established that the passage has been inserted/modified by Christia
n
TAW> writers. That you are a regular on this echo yet are unaware of this
fac
t
TAW> makes me wonder...
Actually I do not have time for the majority of the manure that flows over
the
various channels. Right now I only scan this base for messages to me and
it
has been that way for many months.
Dan
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From: Dan Lafferty
To: David Rice
Sub: INDEED?
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:34:04
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EID:234e 1cf0b440
MSGID: 1:141/1108 2e28617e
Hello David!
15 Jul 94, David Rice writes to Dan Lafferty:
>>DR> But John was talking about the chief Christian god: justice
>>DR> isn't its venue: read your printed god (Bible) instead of
>>DR> worshiping it and you will see this very plainly.
DL>> Had you bothered reading it for YOURSELF instead of relying
DL>> on any one and every ones' criticism as your sole source of
DL>> information you would have seen the justice you pathetic
DL>> small minded person.
DR> What makes you believe I have not read the Bible?! By what
DR> possible "logic" did you attempt to use to come to that
DR> conclusion?
DR> I stand by my claim that the Biblical god does not concern
DR> itself with justice. One has only to read the Bible to see
DR> this is true.
And you do not read for knowledge of what is written, only for phrases to
take
pot shots at. That fact that you made the above comment only proves my
point
: if "the Biblical God does not concern itself with justice" were true as
you
claim there would be no Jonah, hence you did not read it even as well as
most
who do read it do. Go get puffed, Rice.
Dan
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Neil Ansley
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: abortion
Date: 17 Jul 94 20:39:35
--------
EID:1bc2 1cf1a4e0
MSGID: 1:3627/230.0 2e29cf45
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
FR> Few people -- if any -- _want_ to have abortions. If there were
FR> people willing to adopt children, you could expect to see the number
FR> of births increase. Since people __USUALLY__ only want to adopt
FR> healthy white children (I see we have exceptions in this forum) it is
FR> a higher ethic not to give birth in the first place.
So murder is more ethical?
... I hate BlueWave!
--- GEcho 1.02+
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From: Neil Ansley
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ancient Jewish hatred
Date: 17 Jul 94 20:39:36
--------
EID:cf23 1cf1a4e0
MSGID: 1:3627/230.0 2e29cf46
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
FR> ~*~ 1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
FR> they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant
FR> and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. -- Christian Family
FR> Values
Yes, why not announce your ignorance to everybody?
I'm not saying _you_ are ignorant, but that statement certainly was.
/>eil
... Bluewave sucks!
--- GEcho 1.02+
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From: Neil Ansley
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Do I know you?
Date: 17 Jul 94 20:39:37
--------
EID:2844 1cf1a4e0
MSGID: 1:3627/230.0 2e29cf47
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Reg]
Where are you from? I've got a friend that lives around here (Holden
Beach, North Carolina) named Charlie Ray....
/>eil
... I hate BlueWave!
--- GEcho 1.02+
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Gays, Lesbians, and Chri
Date: 17 Jul 94 07:37:35
--------
EID:21ff 1cf13ca0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 c8595434
REPLY: 1:135/71 611306eb
On (12 Jul 94) Jesse Jones wrote to Brothers And Sisters In...
JJ> I can understand why any of you would believe that
JJ> homosexuality is against God's will. Myself, I think what
JJ> Paul was condemning in the passages generally cited was
JJ> creature worship, lustful sex, and promiscuity in general. He
JJ> said nothing about committed monogamous relationships between
JJ> people of the same gender.
JJ> But certainly, our brother Paul did not single out
JJ> homosexuality.
There is little enough genuine love in this world, without so-called
Christians condemning what little does exist.
JJ> I think if Jesus were to address the question directly he
JJ> might say: "You have heard it said that intimate
JJ> relationships between people of the same gender is sinful.
JJ> But I say to you, whoever engages in sex without love and
JJ> respect in their heart sins against that person and against
JJ> God." Maybe once we heterosexuals have learned how to have
JJ> loving relationships, we can teach others. But as for me, I
JJ> will not condemn someone in a same-sex relationship.
Jesus never addressed the topic of homosexuality. He talked about
lust and adultery, but they don't have anything to do with a
committed relationship between two people of the same gender. The
brand of hatefulness that is demonstrated by the believers in this
debate only reminds me how little believers know of love. Those
who take this position in the name of God are God's worst enemy.
To begin with, it is the most unloveable who need love the most.
Just that alone tells me this whole topic -- and especially the
position that the believers are taking regarding this topic --
are more representative of the Christian Devil than Christ.
JJ> You may disagree with me, but tell me, what does this dispute
JJ> have to do with our witnessing for the Gospel? Luke 17:1
JJ> (NRSV) "Jesus said to his disciples, "Occasions for stumbling
JJ> are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come!"
In the same scripture where Paul bad-mouths homosexuality, he also
comes down just as hard on greed, pride, dishonesty, and the other
more ordinary "sins." It is my firm belief that the reason the
far-right believers zero in on homosexuality and ignore all the
other proscriptions mentioned in that same passage is because they
can come down on homosexuality without any fear of later caving in
to the urge to participate, where if they come down on the other
"sins" that are mentioned, they are in effect coming down on
themselves, and they aren't spiritually mature enough to risk
doing that. A scripture regarding the mote in one's own eye comes
readily to mind. . . .
... Don't ask me; I was hired for my looks.
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: glodberg
Date: 17 Jul 94 10:44:34
--------
EID:3535 1cf15580
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2187d89f
REPLY: 1:3625/470 86DD47B7
On (12 Jul 94) Michael Hardy wrote to Fredric Rice...
MH> -> Doctor Glodbreg's photograph is available for download
MH> on
MH>
MH> I think what you're shooting for is "Goldberg," not "Glodbreg."
MH>
Nope. Glodbreg is our typo king, so we pay homage by putting a
couple in his name for him.
... The worst thing about censorship is .
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Dandelion
Sub: Re: An apology.
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:35
--------
EID:c0da 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897cb
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Dandelion to Preston Simpson <=-
> And yes, someday, I will be a psychologist.
D> -!---[ My Reply: ]-----
D> Heheheh... Well, I suppose that means you've taken some basic
D> psychology classes, unlike some of the amateurs around here... :)
Something like that... I've already had preliminaries and will be getting
into the real meat of the courses this coming semester.
... Maybe God is a kid with a chemistry set.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:35
--------
EID:8a5a 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897cc
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Doug Brewer to J.J. Hitt <=-
DB> Has it ever occurred to you why us "modem evangelists" even bother?
DB> Do you think we're earning points or something? We are trying to let
DB> you people in on a secret that can save your life. and your soul. For
DB> that we are mocked, abused, and cursed at. Does that make much sense?
DB> If you were drowning, and I said, "take my hand, I'll pull you up in
DB> the boat"; would you respond with curses and abuse? Well, take a look
DB> around my friend; you are drowning.
The "secret" you speak of leads to subordination (if not out and out servility
)
to an invisible entity who is prone to fits of temper and is fond of sending
people to hell for anything that he doesn't like; he also gets a kick out
of
creating Catch-22 situations for infinite stakes. Face it, God acts like
a
little five year old kid with an ant farm.
Oh, and you haven't presented much, if any, evidence that any of us skeptical
types is indeed drowning. In fact, it is entirely possible that you are
laboring under a delusion.
... "Okay, you primitive screwheads. THIS is my *BOOMSTICK*!" -Ash
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Re: Because of idiots
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:36
--------
EID:d54c 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897cd
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Doug Brewer to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> Why do Christians always sound bitter? (Rhetorical question though
FR> you are certainly free to answer it.)
DB> Let me. Christians sound bitter alot because we come to you with a
DB> message of salvation; and we are spit on, cursed and abused. That
DB> tends to cause bitterness. Sorry.
Amplification: Christians come with what they think is a message of salvation,
and are often of the opinion that their way is the only way and occasionally
demand or at least insist that everyone live by their code. This is why
they
are rejected.
... Lions 20, Christians 0.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Re: Freedummy.
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:36
--------
EID:f2fc 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897ce
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Doug Brewer to Marty Leipzig <=-
DB> 2) The Bible does not teach that we should kill anyone. It teaches
DB> love and tolerance. Because some people choose to kill and hurt in
How about "Thou shalt not suffer a witch (actually, the word meant "poisoner")
to live?" Or God's commandments to the Israelites to conquer the Promised
Land
more or less by fire and sword, slaying the innocent along with the soi-disant
guilty?
DB> But, since you have been told, your blood is not on my hands.
DB> In other words; I am not doing this because I earn some cosmic
DB> brownie points, or get a bozo button. I am doing it because I care,
DB> and because I am called to do it. I will not be any better, or worse,
DB> off whether you accept Christ or not. And, as far as having you, "On
DB> my side", I couldn't care less. I do not need you, and God does not
DB> need you. You need God!! That is the point you seem to be missing.
Cute. First you say that you care, then you say that you don't. Which is
it, Dougie?
... EARTH.EXE corrupted. Run ARMAGEDN.BAT? (y/n)
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Re: Crust was perfect.
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:36
--------
EID:d731 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897cf
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Steve Rose to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> I'd like for someone to actually post some real evidence to support
PS> religious claims. Looks like I'll be waiting for a while.
SR> Yup. We'll all be waiting a lifetime. Nothing will show up, of
SR> course, except a fundy's persistence about their world of ignorance.
Oh well, on to better and other things.
... "I dunno, I'm making this up as I go." -I. Jones
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Creationist Debating
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:37
--------
EID:8f6b 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> numbers. Heck, one day, I may even go so far as to
PS> calculate that Jesus Christ equals 666.
JH> I've already done it for you.
JH> Behold...
JH> A = 1 * 9 = 9
JH> B = 2 * 9 = 18
JH> C = 3 * 9 = 27
JH> ect ect ect...
JH> Y = 25 * 9 = 225
JH> Z = 26 * 9 = 234
JH>
JH> J = 90
JH> E = 45
JH> S = 171
JH> U = 189
JH> S = 171
JH> ------- Total
JH> 666
JH>
Wow...cool...does this mean that Christ is the antiChrist? Isn't that an
oxymoron?
... "I dunno, I'm making this up as I go." -I. Jones
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Science illiteracy test
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:37
--------
EID:da4c 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d1
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> CJH> The only species made purposefully extinct by humans is?
PS> CJH> ___________________________________________________________
PS> Hmmm. Offhand, I don't know. I know of several species
PS> that were made extinct,
PS> if perhaps not purposefully. If I had to guess, I'd say that it was
the
PS> passenger pigeon. However, the dodo, Steller's sea cow, the great auk,
an
d
PS> various and sundry other beasts didn't get much good out of contact
with
PS> mankind.
JH> I think he's looking for small-pox or something similar.
JH> But it's no longer a "science test" when he starts adding concepts
JH> like "purpose". At that point it becomes an editorial.
Smallpox isn't totally extinct...samples do exist in Atlanta and
in
Moscow. There was a brief scare when a sample got loose, but things were
quickly sealed up and the threat is over.
... MANICS FOR JESUS! oh, wait, I'm really bummed....
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: "Love?" Hardly!
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:37
--------
EID:a985 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d2
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Preston Simpson <=-
CR> Very heavy, Dave. One third of the world's population is Christian,
ps> Where's your statistics for this one? Latest info I have says that no
ps> more than 1 billion (or a little less than 20%) of the global
ps> population is Christian.
FR> You're confused by what Christians like Charlie consider human.
FR> Niggers, chinks, and fags don't fall under the classification.
FR> Or am I being too cynical of his motivations?
Well, what of us mixed-race type people? You know, us half-breeds
and
quarter-breeds who are always such an embarrassment?
And yes, you're probably being too cynical. But if he thinks that one billion
people make up a third of the earth's population, he's been living in the
past
.
... Sit down, you're rocking the boat!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: Christian's answer
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:38
--------
EID:e9b6 1cf093c0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Preston Simpson <=-
SS> 13 Jul 94 11:49, Preston Simpson wrote to Shelby Sherman:
PS> BTW, what's the number of your board?
SS> I don't run a board as such, just a mail-only node with
SS> no callers. Sorry.
No problem. I still have a couple of places to get my daily mail "fix."
... Ride The Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: David Johnston
Sub: Re: homosexuality
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:38
--------
EID:c4e8 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d4
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting David Johnston to Preston Simpson <=-
-> One of the more famous homosexuals in history was King James (I
-> forget whether he was the first or the second), of the KJV Bible
-> fame. He had a couple of kids, and was openly homosexual. Later in
-> life, he went on a real witch- hunting craze. Personally, I think he
-> was bonkers and deserved shooting, but
DJ> Although King James firmly believed in witches (and in fact believed
DJ> that witches were out to get him), oddly enough he never actually had
DJ> any alleged witches executed. He always ruled that the evidence in
DJ> the specific case before him was insufficient to justify a guilty
DJ> ruling.
Guilty conscience talking to him, perhaps? Been a while since I've done
a lot
of research into the witch hunts, but I do remember that, after a bit, the
hunters were paid a set fee for each witch that they captured, so it was
in
their best interests that they find as many "witches" as possible.
... Myth-conceptions are the major cause of wars.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: David Johnston
Sub: Re: Such Intelligence
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:38
--------
EID:fbf5 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d5
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting David Johnston to Preston Simpson <=-
-> Pray, if everything is meaningless to you, why not kill yourself now?
-> After all, you are only staying alive by inertia. I imagine that a
-> life based upon nihilism must be very dull indeed. After all,
-> everything is pointless to you, no?
DJ> Robinson isn't really a nihilist. He is merely trying (and failing)
DJ> to make a point about the logical extension of the rejection of the
DJ> supernatural.
People continue to mystify me. I suppose they always will.
... Maybe God is a kid with a chemistry set.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:38
--------
EID:3259 1cf093c0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Martin Goldberg <=-
MG> Since you asked.....homosexuality occurs in nature. that makes it
MG> natural.
ND> Besides if you want to compare the human race to a bunch of
ND> animals in heat, I guess that is your choice, but I will choose
ND> not to. We are God breathed individuals. We are made in Gods
ND> likeness. To say the Homosexuality is ok would be calling our
ND> God Gay.
But God loves everybody, doesn't he? And he wants us all to have a close
personal relationship with him, doesn't he? Sounds to me like the ol' guy
is
a bisexual at the very least.
Oh, and you're invited to provide evidence to back up your claims. I know
that
you've already said you don't have any that you can present, but I thought
I'd
ask, just for old times' sake. And you don't need to get upset when someone
asks you for evidence that you can't/won't provide. The fault is, after
all,
yours.
ND> I am sure my Son will be aware of the fact of the sinful behavior
ND> in the future. But to teach it is just another alternate
ND> lifestyle is false teaching. It is a lifestyle of the wicked if I
ND> may say.
A lifestyle is still a lifestyle, Nathan. Homosexuality is by most indications
a lifestyle that some people have very little (if any at all) choice in
leading; to put it bluntly, they do it because they were made that way.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:39
--------
EID:f726 1cf093c0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Chris Lee <=-
CL> just because one doesn't believe in god doesn't make one an
CL> anti-christ or a satanic believer, it doesn't condemn a man to
ND> Evidently you don't read the Bible. Anyone who is not part
ND> of Christ is a part of the ANTI-CHRIST
Cute. Such bipolarized thinking is almost sad in its childishness. What
about
those of us who are simply neutral and persist in doing what they want to
do
without the intervention of an invisible entity?
CL> renounce god, it simply makes one more happier, he lives no where else
CL> but your faith, and faith cannot be proven, even by yourself if you'd
CL> examine it with eyes of free man,
ND> Your not free unless you are set free by Jesus. Yes He lives is
ND> a part of my Faith and I am sharing it with you.....
BS. Christianity isn't about freeing anyone. A devout Christian is one of
the
most enslaved people possible.
... "Okay, you primitive screwheads. THIS is my *BOOMSTICK*!" -Ash
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Wild??
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:39
--------
EID:a965 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897d9
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Chris Lee <=-
CL> i don't know if it was bible or some gospel or whatever, but i heard
CL> that grain of faith can move the mountain, lesse if you have grain
of
CL> faith, please move a mountain for me,
ND> That would be tempting the Lord. I would not ask a selfish act
ND> out of a motive just to prove God's authenticy to you.
In other words, you can't do it and neither can God, if he exists.
... The secret of flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Song
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:40
--------
EID:b310 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897db
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to C. J. Henshaw <=-
CJH> When a fundi has run out of semi-logical arugments, he reverts to
CJH> spewing mythology.
CJH> C. J. Henshaw
ND> I am not running. I stand firm on the Rock of my Salvation and
ND> whom shall I fear....
Ah. The truth comes out. You fear your invisible entity. You fear this great
THING that you believe is watching you all the time with completely undivided
attention. How does it feel to be under such close scrutiny? How does it
feel
to have absolutely no privacy? How does it feel to know that each and every
thing you do will be played back before all of humanity someday?
If I believed as you did, I'd be a nervous wreck by now. Face it, your God
is
an incurable voyeur.
... Beam me up, Scotty...this planet sucks.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: Re: words
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:40
--------
EID:b6f6 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897dc
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to C. J. Henshaw <=-
-> Then he's not omnipotent. Make your mind up, is he omnipotent or isn
MH> I'll rephrase: God could interfere in our choices, but he chooses
MH> not to (most of the time at least) because he wants us to make our
MH> decisions free of his coercion.
His coercion comes at the end, when he looks at what you've done and sentences
you to hell or to heaven for it. And there are, according to various of
your
other brethren, plenty of innocents who are going to be going to hell.
... Maybe God is a kid with a chemistry set.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Re: I don't _think_ so...
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:41
--------
EID:5a51 1cf093c0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> If Maslow's model is indeed true,
JS> Hi, Preston.
Greetings, Jim.
JS> Thankyou for including the key word here, 'if'.
I hold very few absolutes in my life.
JS> It is interesting that sex drive is included with hunger and
JS> thirst. No one has ever died for lack of sex and masturbation is
JS> known to asuage, at least temporarily, ones need for sex.
What Maslow was driving at was the need to reach homeostasis before we could
move on to higher issues. Hard to concentrate on vast philosophical problems
when your stomach is rumbling.
And yes, I agree that while no one ever died of sex and masturbation can
temporarily placate the sex drive (I thought most Christians were against
masturbation. I recently had one of my fellow skeptics provide scripture
that
seemed to support this position. Could you clarify this later, perhaps?),
ther
e
is another and better way.
PS> Sorry. I don't buy it. The Bible is not evidence of anything except
PS> that a bunch of people long in their graves continue to have a
PS> regrettable amount of influence over certain of today's population.
JS> I find it interesting that you and others are more than willing
JS> and perfectly happy to accept the teachings of others long in
JS> their graves (who, unfortunately continue to exert a regrettable
JS> amount of influence over certain of today's population). Maybe even
JS> this Maslow dude.
Maslow's been dead since 1970. But we can prove that he was alive, and we
can prove that he's dead, and we have lots of evidence of what he said,
a lot
of it from his own hand. Not so with Christ.
PS> I have an attitude towards anyone who wants to force his religion or
PS> his ethics on people that they don't know.
JS> Well, now that I know him a little better, it is O.K. then?
PS> No.
JS> Pretty narrow, here, Preston. :*>
Sorry. I tend to be that way sometimes.
... Help stamp out, eliminate and abolish redundancy!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Re: nah...
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:41
--------
EID:57cc 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897de
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Preston Simpson <=-
JS> You and I certainly can agree to disagree on this matter,
JS> Preston. I will respect you just as much either way.
PS> Wait a little bit yet. You may stop respecting me after a while.
JS> Ever the optimist, eh, Preston? I am known for my tenacity.
Merely a statement of possibility, Jim.
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)acrifice to random god?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Re: No porblem with salesmen!
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:41
--------
EID:d23e 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897df
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> These "internal struggles" that you mention can be aided and abetted,
PS> or even caused by external stresses. What you define as internal
PS> struggle can be explained a little better in terms of a Freudian model
PS> of the mind:
JS> Hi, Preston.
JS> Yeah, I took Psych 101 as well. I find Freud to be one of those
JS> 'long in the grave' persons we were discussing in a previous
JS> exchange. As with anyone doing too much cocaine, even Mom starts
JS> looking good.
I'll be the first to admit that Freud was a half-baked crackpot, but I think
that his model of the conscious and unconscious mind was pretty good and,
IMO,
still valid. A case of a lunatic having a moment of genius.
PS> stressed to the limit, the person will snap. This, in my opinion, is
PS> what causes a lot of suicides. An external pressure was applied, or
was
PS> reacted to poorly, and the individual broke and killed himself to
PS> escape the pressure.
JS> I believe the 'reacted to poorly' part to be the accurate
JS> portion of the statement.
If someone is continually exposed to incredible amounts of stress, they
will
snap, sooner or later. The now-accepted name for this sort of reaction is
"post-traumatic stress disorder." I prefer to think of it as "shell shock,"
myself. But I digress....
To continue, EVERYONE has a breaking point. If they are pushed far enough,
the
y
will eventually break. Some are more catastrophic about this than others,
but
it will eventually happen.
In fact, given the nature of today's society, the "fight-or-flight" reaction
is probably one of the more stressful factors involved in the kind of pressure
s
that I spoke of. You can't exactly run from your problems, and you can't
exactly fight them, so all of the adrenaline and the body's burning of all
available fuel tends to have a detrimental effect before too long.
... SENILE.COM not loaded. Out of memory.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:30:41
--------
EID:d7be 1cf093c0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2897e0
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Phil Morrison to Doug Brewer <=-
> The founders of this country left England to escape Catholicism, not
> Christianity.
PM> More specifically, Roman Catholicism, I'd guess.
PM> Lotsa Catholics not of Rome...
PM> phil
PM> PS: I enjoy what you are posting
I think some of us historical scholar types are going to have to disagree
with what Brewer's said.
The Puritans fled England due to persecution from the Church of England,
otherwise known as the Anglicans. The Anglicans, being an offshoot of Catholic
-
ism (which is indeed Christianity, by the by. Next time you see a Catholic,
thank him for preserving your religion for you), did not follow the Pope.
They
were Catholic in ceremony, but not necessarily in fact.
Furthermore, there was the Reformed movement, which was a sect of Protestantis
m
and basically followed the teachings of John Calvin. (A real control-freak
who
took over Geneva and established what the faithful would have called a
theocracy and the skeptics a totalitarian police state.) The Reformists
were
against Catholicism and anything that even faintly resembled it.
The Puritans, once they established their colony in America, proceeded to
indulge in exactly the same sort of religious persecution and harrassment
that
they had suffered in England. Kind of ironic, isn't it?
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Andrew Ruys
Sub: EVIDENCE+STATS
Date: 16 Jul 94 15:10:11
--------
EID:e6c3 1cf07940
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 781433b4
AR> AR> AR> the one in Genesis. Obviously statistics have disproved
AR> AR> AR> Darwins hypothesis, not to mention genetic science.
AR> AR> TAW> Statistics disprove evolution? Really? How so?
AR> AR> The complexity of mutation from base amino acid to high
AR> AR> order mammal, the brief time period involved, and the
AR> AR> limited rate at which preferred mutation occurs through
AR> AR> natural selection combine to give a balance of
AR> AR> probabilities considerably against the hypothesis that
AR> AR> mutation and natural selection account for what exists
AR> AR> today. Furthermore, genetic science, a hard science
AR> AR> verifiable in the here and now, precludes a change in
AR> AR> chromasome number.
AR> You didn't deal with this one. This is irrefutable in itself.
What is there to deal with but to point out self serving
assumptions?
AR> MG> A fanciful claim but we are all willing to listen. Post
AR> MG> your assumptions, the equations you are using, the numbers you
AR> MG> are going to put into the equations and the solutions to the
AR> MG> equations. Of course you will not because you are unable to do
AR> MG> so but you can't say you were not given the chance.
AR> Well Matt, you asked for it...here it comes...
AR> The assumptions and equations come from the sub-discipline of mathematics
known
AR> as statistics - remember from your undergraduate university days all
that
Chi
AR> squarred distribution, bell curves, regression coefficients...
AR> We'll now zoom in on the problem, and find ourselves in the sub-topic
of
AR> statistics known as probability theory...remember all those factorials
and
bags
AR> of coloured balls...yes its all coming back to you now, those dreaded
AR> tutorials...
AR> Anyway, to the problem solving stage:
AR> We will use as an example, the chance development of an ultra-simple
syste
m
AR> consisting of 200 components, in the same ball park of complexity as
a sim
ple
AR> protein molecule. The probability of a given configuration is 1/20!
(1 ove
r 20
AR> factorial), which is around 1:10^375 (1 in 10 to the power of 375).
An eve
nt of
AR> probability above 1:10^50 is considered impossible in practical terms.
Chemistry does not work by chance. Therefore, statistics
are inapplicable to the discussion.
AR> The chance that one of these 5*10^101 combinations was correct given
that
AR> 10^375 combinations exist = 10^375/5*10^101 = 2*10^273 ... in other
words,
a
AR> zero chance in practical terms.
AR> The most basic protein molecule contains many hundred components, and
so w
e are
AR> edging towrds the 10^1000 permutation zone. So by this statistical analysi
s we
AR> haven't even got our first simple virus yet.
Amino acids do not sequence randomly. Therefore statistics
is not applicable.
AR> For our 200 component protein molecule, the number of permutations is:
AR> SUM OF [for n=1 to 200] (n!)
Again, you have failed to take into account non-random
sequencing thus calculating raw permutations is inapplicable.
AR> i.e. 1!+2!+3!+...+199!+200! which is higher than 200!, albeit only slightl
y
AR> higher, but certainly not an escape route for the natural selection
hypoth
esis.
AR> Well, as we know, we have organisms much more complex than viruses.
AR> So I repeat my comment of the previous message with the weight of irrefuta
ble
AR> statistical analysis behind it...
I believe I have just demonstrated it is fallacious by
pointing out such sequencing is not random. Therefore your
entire analysis is fallacious. Now if you would like to back up
and prove amino acid sequencing is random we can get back this
post.
AR> You asked for it...now you will have to try and deal with it.
Dealt with.
---
* RM 1.3 01261 * ABRACADABRA! Almost HEX.
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Questions
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:56:17
--------
EID:9002 1cf08700
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 61333c58
On (12 Jul 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Robert Curry...
JCJ> I pray for your soul.
FR>
Do you think he sticks pins in voodoo dolls, too? ;-)
FR> The Christian equal to "fuck you _and_ your hurtful questions."
And if that were not obvious enough on its face, Jesse has admitted
as true your analysis that his intention is to annoy and to insult.
It does insult some people, oddly enough, even though it is clear
to me that his formula is nothing more than a means of lashing out.
--- PPoint 1.82
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From: Robert Curry
To: Rick Mcfarlane
Sub: pi = 3?
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:57:03
--------
EID:cb5e 1cf08720
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 a13863d9
On (14 Jul 94) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Robert Curry...
RM> I saw Raoul's note, and certainly can't follow his logic either.
RM> 30/10 is certainly not the same as 10/3, at least not when I do
RM> the calculations .
Maybe he'll explain the Talmudic interpretation to you, though you'd
be better served by finding a more reliable source for that information.
RC> Where did you get the strange notion that the ancient Hebrews were
RC> using the relatively modern notion of significant digits? Please
RC> explain.
RM> I never said that.
True, you did not.
RM> But the modern people who are claiming that this is a case of an
RM> error in the bible certainly _should_ be using the modern notion
RM> of significant digits.
Why? The criticism is one directed toward inerrantists, and should
be considered, I think, in that context.
If you are complaining about people taking the argument out of that
context, then I can support what you are saying, but in the original
context, it is a strong argument against the inerrantist dogma.
RM> When they take the ratio if two numbers that are stated to one
RM> significant digit of precision,
It is an anachronism to say that they were "stated to one significant
digit of precision." Such concepts did not exist at the time of
writing - thus the notion of interpreting the text that way is invalid.
And besides the anachronism involved, there is also a matter of how
the hell you figure out how many significant digits there are in
"thirty." In "30" we find one; in "30." we find two. But in "thirty?"
RC> Rounding to the nearest integer (more common then) gives 31 cubits.
RM> So? You've assumed that 10 cubits was the exact diameter.
No, Rick, I did not assume that at all.
Allow me to clarify my above remark. Rounding _down_ (or flooring) to
the nearest whole number was common then; the notion of rounding up also
happens to be relatively modern. Thus your second attempt to "fix" the
error is also quite anachronistic:
RM> Let me do the same thing, but assume that the circumference was
RM> exactly 30 cubits. That makes the diameter 9.54 cubits, and
RM> "rounding to the nearest integer", gives 10 cubits. And this is
RM> presented by Martin and Fred as an error?
You rounded up, which is anachronistic, as my criticism of the text
is based upon the meaning of its author(s) at the time of writing.
Given 10 + x as the diameter, and 30 + y as the circumference, where
x and y are nonnegative quantities less than 1 whole unit, there
is still no way to make the implied value of pi _inerrantly_ correct.
Since this is an argument against the biblical inerrantists, I think
that the above makes my point, as I stated earlier...
RC> It does provide an embarrassment for the biblical inerrantists,
RC> though, since it seems silly for a god to be over 4% off on
RC> the value of pi.
RM> That passage makes no reference to pi.
It does implicitly, which - in the context of inerrantist dogma -
makes the error rather embarrasing. In a more reasonable context,
it is no big deal (just as applies to other biblical errors).
RM> [...] Is it silly to be off 4% in describing something?
In the context of inerrantist dogma, yes. Normally, it depends on
what you're describing.
RM> If I told you that my yard is 200 feet wide, (it's actually 208
RM> feet wide) should I be "embarassed" by my 4% lack of precision?
If you claimed that your statement was "inerrant," then YES, you
would have something to be embarrassed about. Since you are not so
absurdly preposterous, however, no. See how context matters?
RM> The passage in question gives the diameter and circumference
RM> of the object being described, both with one digit of precision.
You have yet to explain, Rick, how you unilaterally decided that one
digit of precision is what applies to "thirty" or to "ten." I find
that to be an extraordinary leap.
RM> I tried to phrase it a number of different ways, and I received
RM> some interesting abuse (comments about "wounded pride",
RM> "bitterness", and "righteous indignation").
People are not noted for holding their tongues here.
RM> It's been an interesting experience to see the unbelievers resort
RM> to the same tactics that they so regularly decry when used by
RM> the believers.
I think Martin Goldberg made his case quite well when he pointed
out to you the thrust of his statement, that the error is there, and
_that_ is what makes the inerrantists demonstrably wrong.
While I appreciate your sense of fairness in attempting to find a way
out of this particular bind for the inerrantists, I think that the
attempt is unsuccessful, for the reasons I stated above.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Rick Mcfarlane
Sub: more on pi
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:59:21
--------
EID:1d45 1cf08760
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 f9470647
On (14 Jul 94) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Styx Allum...
SA> To attempt any calculations with "pi=3" would be silliness.
RM> That would depend on the circumstances, but, in any case, no
RM> one ever suggested that.
The ancient Babylonians often used 3 as pi in certain calculations.
Egyptians of the same period had a far better approximation, however,
to within 0.6% of the actual value. Just some trivia.
RM> All that was suggested was that the data contained in that passage
RM> can only be used to calculate pi to one significant digit,
Anachronistic mathematical operations do not apply here, and it is
still unclear how you determine the "significant digits" in "thirty."
RM> This discussion began with people claiming that this passage was
RM> in error (ie. inaccurate).
In the context that the argument was originally put forth, i.e., that
of demonstating a real problem with the biblical inerrantist dogma,
the roughly 4% error serves its purpose well it debunking such claims.
RM> [...] What I meant was that, given currently accepted scientific
RM> standards, (the standards to which scientific papers are held),
RM> this passage is correct.
I find the image rather amusing, but it is irrelevant, as you are
shifting the context from the original one critical of an inerrantist
dogma, to a scientific one, where errors are actually expected.
SA> (BTW - the references to 10 and 30 were not "single digit precision")
RM> Now, this is a more interesting objection.
Indeed. It is the objection that I have also made, noting that your
interpretation of the numbers according to "significant digits" is
quite anachronistic and also odd as applied to non-digital expressions.
RM> If those numbers actually contain more than one significant digit,
RM> then this passage really does give an inaccurate (rather than
RM> imprecise) value for pi, ie. it really _is_ in error. If you have
RM> reason to believe that they are meant to carry two significant
RM> digits, please present it, I am very interested.
The text clearly states "ten" and "thirty." You would interpret these
words (anachronistically) as "10" and "30" - meaning "between 5 and
15" and "between 25 and 35" (where the intervals are inclusive on the
left and exclusive on the right).
I submit that you are being silly and inconsistent with such an
uncalled for interpretation.
You have stated yourself that the text is not a modern scientific
paper, so why would you expect it to follow very recent conventions
in significant digits in the first place?
Secondly, even if you are going to insist on interpreting it in
such an anachronistic fashion, it is clear that "ten" corresponds
better to "10." than to "10" - and I will further submit to you
that the most accurate interpretation is that "ten" corresponds to
"ten plus a fractional quantity that is omitted."
Similarly for "thirty."
Read the passage as it was intended, why don't you?
RM> However, as a matter of standard practice, the numbers 3, 30, 300,
RM> 3,000,000, all are considered to contain one significant digit.
Good grief. The very place notation that you are using here to support
your argument wasn't even in existence at the time, nor even for nearly
a millenium afterwards! Basing an argument on anachronisms which do
not apply hardly seems appropriate.
The ancient Hebrews are highly unlikely to have had more sophisticated
mathematical notions than the Babylonians or Egyptians (in fact,
there is little to nothing of note to be found contributed to the
history of mathematics by the ancient Hebrew culture) and so it would
seem that one would do best to base interpretations of the text on
what was commonly _meant_ by such expressions at the time.
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Evolution
Date: 15 Jul 94 14:41:00
--------
EID:748e 1cef7520
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Ken Wiens to Matt Giwer <=-
Good morning, Ken.
KW> Sure. Fossils are fact. However, in what way to they
KW> establish that evolution is fact. Answer? They don't.
MG> Answer, life was different in the past. The older the
MG> fossil the more different the life from today. That is the fact
MG> of evolution.
KW> It is the interpretation of the fossils that lead one
KW> in one direction or another. Charlie is quite correct
KW> above when he states evolution is speculation.
MG> Interpretation would be a comment upon the theory and not
MG> the fact. There is no interpretation related to dating and
MG> noting the differences in fossils. It is clear to see. The only
MG> possible question would relate to the mechanism. That involves
MG> naming the mechanism.
KW> There is a lot of interpretation involved. Roger Lewin, one of
KW> the leading evolutionary scientists of our day, admitted the
KW> following in his book "Bones of Contention: Controversies in
KW> the Search for Human Origins:
KW> "It is an unfortunate truth that fossils do not emerge from the
KW> ground with labels already attached to them. And it is bad enough
KW> that much of the labeling was done in the name of egoism and a
KW> naive lack of appreciation of variation between individuals: each
KW> nuance in shape was taken to indicate a difference in type rather
KW> than natural variation within a population. This problem has
KW> in some part been eased in the half-century since Hooton made his
KW> pithy remarks. But it remains inescapably true that applying
KW> the correct label is astonishingly difficult, not least because
KW> such labels are in a sense arbitrary abstractions, and especially
KW> so when the material on which the analysis is being done is
KW> fragmentary and eroded. "It is an incredibly difficult problem,"
KW> says Lord Zuckerman. "It is one so difficult that I think it
KW> would be legitimate to despair that one could ever turn it into
KW> a science." page 27 of "Bones of Contention" by Roger Lewin.
KW> Simon and Schuster. New York. 1987.
Synopsis: They say that the fossil record shows a trend over the long term
from the simplest single celled organisms in the late precambrian to modern
life forms in the most recent sediments. You counter by quoting a
scientist who says that it is difficult to tell whether small differences
in fossils are due to variation within, or between populations.
This is so irrelevant to the point at hand that it can only be considered
a
diversion. No one was talking about small differences between fossils.
We're talking about the differences between algae and men here. Do you
really think that Roger Lewin has trouble making that distinction?
So, you still haven't addressed the fact of evolution in any way. The
fossil record is quite clear. Life was different in the past, and the
farther back you go the more different it was. Nothing much more advanced
than algae in the Precambrian. Nothing much more advanced than trilobites
in the Cambrian. Nothing on land until later yet. And so on and so on.
No
fossil hominids until very recently. How much interpretation do you think
is necessary to tell an algae from a trilobite from a dinosaur from a man?
Even you could do it at a glance.
Take care.
... But it does move! (Galileo Galilei)
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Jerome O'neil
To: John Prewett
Sub: Jesus Pusher
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:43:00
--------
EID:e53e 1cef9560
MSGID: 1:343/183@fidonet.org e513744a
JP> Jesus is genuinely mind altering.
JP>
JP> Matter of fact,
JP> Jesus is the most powerful mind alterer who ever lives.
;
You have never met Bongload.
---
MegaMail 2.10 #0:I don't think you're happy enough.
--- QScan v1.065b
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From: David Johnston
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: Wiccans
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:34:11
--------
EID:e816 1cf00c40
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032586
-> I try not to. Another reason I ask is that a couple of weird things
-> have happened to me lately, and the only religion that I know of that
-> comes even close to explaining them died out in ancient Egypt a
-> couple thousand years ago.
Your "ka" started arguing with your "ba" and your other four souls are
just plain fed up?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Dash the little ones
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:40:11
--------
EID:b67b 1cf00d00
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032587
No, in that infamous passage about killing the children of Babylon, the
Hebrews are asking God to send someone to give the Babylonians the same
grief they inflicted on Israel. It's not a message from God, it's a
message to God.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Re: evidence???
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:45:11
--------
EID:6a8f 1cf00da0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032588
-> Naturally we oppose divorce and spousal abuse. In fact, I preach
-> against
Of course, if you oppose divorce, you oppose the only reliable remedy
for spousal abuse...
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: David Johnston
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: INDEED
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:48:11
--------
EID:ac52 1cf00e00
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032589
-> Mormons do not believe in the same God, neither do the Jehovah's
-> Witnesses. I suggest that you educate yourself concerning the areas
-> of agreement between orthodox Christianity, like the RCC, and
-> Protestant Evangelicals.
Outsiders always lose the fine distinctions. In what way do the two
groups mentioned differ from mainstream and evangelical Christianity in
their depiction of God?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: David Johnston
To: Chris Lee
Sub: questions
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:54:11
--------
EID:2355 1cf00ec0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258a
-> MH> Applying "prior knowledge" of a group to an individual without
-> MH> getting to know that individual is bigotry, Chris. The person who
-> gets MH> mugged by a black man and from then on thinks blacks are
-> likely to be MH> violent robbers is just applying his prior knowledge
-> of blacks.
-> i don't recall a black man killing people under the name of god,
I'm sure that some have. However, why is that relevant?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Chris Lee
Sub: selfish
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:55:11
--------
EID:915e 1cf00ee0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258b
-> MH> Selfish is bad when it causes harm to others. but many things we
-> do causes harm to others, yet we do them because it will do good to
-> us, heck, this whole nation is doing great harm to latin american
-> countries by being wealthy,
Assuming that your nation was poor. How would this benefit Latin
America?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Heathens
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:02:11
--------
EID:21d6 1cf01040
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258c
-> EH> Can't we show some respect for other people ?
->
-> I think you will find, Edward, that the heathens here cannot show
-> respect for people of faith. In part, I think, that is because they
-> tend to act like spoiled brats. And in part it is because they have
-> no belief system to enable or empower them to care for other humans.
Speaking as a heathen, I resent your implication that I am unable to
care for other humans.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Conditioning
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:07:11
--------
EID:83a3 1cf010e0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258d
-> RR> I know I might regret this, but what are you talking about with
-> that RR> statement..?
-> God is not a god of love. He killed thousands of innocent children,
-> and condemned more to a life of sexual slavery. The Bible records
-> this. Ask
Oh, come on, give Mr. Rodriguez a break and satisfy my curiosity. What
part of the Bible was that?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Dave Oosterman
Sub: Re: laws
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:13:11
--------
EID:021f 1cf011a0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258e
-> DJ> can partake without notable damage. It seems to me that harm is
-> the DJ> most notable determinant of whether a lifetime of abstinence
-> is called DJ> for, harm to others, or to oneself.
-> Hi David,
->
-> And IMHO (and many others), extra-marital sex causes sufficient harm
-> in enough cases to fit that criteria.
So let gay people marry.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: David Johnston
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Check It Out...
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:25:11
--------
EID:4f94 1cf01320
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7803258f
-> JM> But I don't agree that it's genetic, Simon. I believe it's a men
-> JM> problem that can be helped.
-> PS> Too bad. Latest evidence suggests that some, if not all
-> homosexuality PS> fact genetic in nature.
-> RR> Makes you wonder who is providing the evidence....
-> Mother Nature.
So far as I know, the only studies which have provided any information
on the subject, while statistically questionable, indicated that there
may be a biological element to homosexual tendancies. However, that
does not necessarily mean that they are a genetic trait, since they
could just as easily be the result of random developmental influences in
the womb. I know of no studies that suggest that the offspring of
homosexuals are themselves particularly likely to become homosexual.
Note however that the infamous rat crowding experiments suggest that a
substantial percentage of homosexual behavior is the result of an
involuntary psychological reaction to our standard urban life pattern.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: David Johnston
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Re: "Heathens"
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:27:11
--------
EID:fb21 1cf01360
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032590
-> to even entertain such a notion is totally absurd. The odds of
-> life appearing spontaneously in the ancient oceans is something
-> like a 10 followed by 40 thousand zeroes or greater, according
-> to Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe, one of the most eminent
-> British scientists of our day.
Who lacked the biochemical training to give an informed opinion on the
subject.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Re: Ancient Jewish Hatre
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:29:11
--------
EID:00da 1cf013a0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 78032591
-> PS> Normal is what the majority of the population says is right.
-> Saying PS> that something is right does not mean that it is done by
-> all or most of PS> the population.
-> KW> So, if the majority of the population says blacks should be KW>
-> slaves, that is normal. Hmmmm....
-> PS> But the majority of the population does not say that right now,
-> and I PS> did not say that normal automatically equalled right. There
-> are many PS> cases where it was not so.
-> What you said I quote above. In short, the majority is right,
-> according to you above. Thus, what I say in response above
-> is what logically follows.
No it doesn't. He said the majority is always normal, not the majority
is always right.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: Freddy's Place Edmonton, AB. 403-456-4241
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--------
From: Charlie Ray
To: David Rice
Sub: homosexuality
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:49:00
--------
EID:fd7b 1cf14620
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21DFC
Hello DAVID RICE...
Message from: DAVID RICE
To: CHARLIE RAY
homosexuality
07-15-94 11:57
CR> Homosexuality has never produced a progeny. Until recently
CR> with the advent of artificial insemination, no homosexual
CR> women reproduced. Common sense should tell you that is not
CR> natural selection, but artificial manipulation.
DR>Hi!
DR>You are speaking from ignorance (again). Homosexual women have
DR>produced children ever since there were women. My ex- roommates
DR>both wanted children, and they were both lesbians. Just because
DR>a woman is homosexual does not mean she is somehow unable to
DR>become pregnant.
DR>Care to try again, Charlie?
You mean they were willing to become heterosexual long enough to have
children? Amazing that they would make such a sacrifice when they are not
attracted to men.
BTW, know any homosexual men who have become pregnant?
Sincerely yours in Christ,
* WR # 461 * Criticism comes easier than craftsmanship.--Zeuxis.
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From: Charlie Ray
To: David Rice
Sub: evidence???
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:53:00
--------
EID:d947 1cf146a0
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21DFF
Hello DAVID RICE...
Message from: DAVID RICE
To: CHARLIE RAY
evidence???
07-15-94 11:58
CR> Christians, however, are under a divine[sic] imperative to
CR> go into all the world and proclaim the good[sic] news of
CR> Jesus Christ[sic].
DR>Just like the Muslims. And the Moonies. And the Davidians.
All are more recent than Christianity, and Islam in particular borrowed
most of its ideas from Judaism and Christianity.
Moreover, there is no direct command from a deity in those religions,
whereas Christ himself commands Christians to preach and proclaim the good
news of the kingdom of God. What's your point?
Sincerely yours in Christ,
* WR # 461 * Criticism comes easier than craftsmanship.--Zeuxis.
--- WM v3.11/91-0006
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From: Charlie Ray
To: Don Martin
Sub: Dead Gods
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:02:00
--------
EID:c16e 1cf14840
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E02
Hello DON MARTIN...
Message from: DON MARTIN
To: CHARLIE RAY
Dead Gods
07-15-94 19:03DM> Contrary to the dictates of sanity, Charlie Ray said
DM>to Martin Goldberg:
MG>The FACT remains? What fact is this? The same one that permits yo
MG>the country's "moral relativism"?
CR> The witness of the Gospel of John, an eyewitness to the ministry a
CR> the crucifixion of Christ proclaims this fact. A fact is that whi
CR> cannot be denied on the basis of the evidence.
DM> Now let's see: fact is that John did not publish until the end
DM>of the first century, which would put the crucifixion as far away
DM>from him in time as the first administration of Franklin Delano
DM>Roosevelt is from us. And yet he was, according to you, an
DM>eyewitness not only to the crucifixion but to the ministry that
DM>preceded it (the Hoover administration, relatively speaking).
DM>Unless the guy was a child prodigy of an observer, that would pretty
DM>much place him in my father's generation, relatively speaking. It is
DM>now toward the end of our century: how many competent writers do YOU
DM>know born during the administration of Theodore Roosevelt? How many
DM>of them have waited until the present to set down the single most
DM>significant event in their lives?
Whether or not the Gospel of John was written by the apostle himself or
from oral tradition preserved in the Johannine community is beside the
point. The gospel asserts that the Apostle John was an eyewitness to the
crucifixion and the resurrection. Oral tradition is as reliable as any
newspaper article today, and probably better.
DM> Add to that the fact that John is the most "mystical" of the
DM>gospellers, more interested in dealing in matters divine than in
DM>confining himself to more mundane things, and the door is more than
DM>a little ajar for operations of the imagination. At least Matthew,
DM>Mark and Luke attempted to write material with some semblance to an
DM>historic account. Being an actual (in the sense of physically
DM>present) "eyewitness" is rather less important to John, who would
DM>doubtless have been satisfied to "be there in spirit". In fact,
DM>such "witness" is more in keeping with his character and likely to
DM>have been regarded by him as equal (if not superior) to being there
DM>in the flesh.
You are entitled to your biased opinions, Don. However, higher criticism
does not necessarily need to draw your conclusions from the same evidence.
How does the Jesus seminar find the original sayings of Jesus? Oral
tradition. I suppose we should throw out the entire volume recently
released?
DM> Later, you say to Scot Bear:
SB>Vice-versa I might add. Remember the miracle of the Noodles?
CR> One naive Christian does not make all Christians fools, Scot.
DM> That may well be; however, in my experience, one naive
DM>Christian rarely lacks for company, particularly as naivete is
DM>certainly not a disqualification for entry into the flock.
While that may be true of Christian laity it is no less true of the typical
uneducated non-Christian. Many of the uneducated atheists here hold
equally foolish ideas about the Bible, history, and philosophical positions
concerning metaphysics. What's your point?
Sincerely yours in Christ,
* WR # 461 * Outside show is a poor substitute for inner worth.
--- WM v3.11/91-0006
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From: Charlie Ray
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: fundy fairy tales
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:04:00
--------
EID:b215 1cf14880
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E05
Hello MARTIN GOLDBERG...
Message from: MARTIN GOLDBERG
To: CHARLIE RAY
fundy fairy tales
07-15-94 22:07 CR> From THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS:
MG>I read the post. Then I reread it.
MG>It's a crock.
Simply amazing that a supposed "scientist" has never heard of Thomas Kuhn
or the University of Chicago. I now understand how far illiteracy goes
among atheists in this echo. Care to reveal any more of your ignorance,
Mr. Goldberg?
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
Fidonet @1:2370/10
Wilmore, KY, the Holy City.
I ain't no sysop, but I am A/G.
Internet:
charlie.ray@profbbs.com
* WR # 461 * If you secure an area, don't forget to inform the enemy.
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--------
From: Charlie Ray
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: "Because _Salem's Lo
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:46:00
--------
EID:9be2 1cf16dc0
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E08
Hello MARTIN GOLDBERG...
Message from: MARTIN GOLDBERG
To: CHARLIE RAY
"Because _Salem's Lo
07-15-94 22:17
CR> Statistics show that male homosexuals are more promiscuous than
CR> their heterosexual counterparts or female homosexuals. The
MG>Reference this please.
Try a recent post to me in this conference by someone defending
homosexuality.
MG>AIDS is transmitted by sexual contact, anal intercourse being more cond
MG>Uninfected partners NEVER get sexually tranmitted HIV from onogamous
MG>relationships. The last end of year CDC study shows that the rate of
H
MG>infection is larger in heteros than homos.
Probably because there are more heteros than homos and the disease has
spread from the homosexual male population to the rest of the high risk
groups within the heterosexual crowd. Last year the major television
networks said that with the upgrade of AIDS related diseases that
homosexual men under the age of 40 had the highest death rate from AIDS.
Wonder why? I am sure it had nothing to do with promiscuous behavior.
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
Fidonet @1:2370/10
Wilmore, KY, the Holy City.
I ain't no sysop, but I am A/G.
Internet:
charlie.ray@profbbs.com
* WR # 461 * We often despise what is most useful to us.
--- WM v3.11/91-0006
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--------
From: Charlie Ray
To: Jason Nishiyama
Sub: What's the matter?
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:49:00
--------
EID:8808 1cf16e20
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E0B
Hello JASON NISHIYAMA...
Message from: JASON NISHIYAMA
To: CHARLIE RAY
What's the matter?
07-14-95 17:01JN>In a message to Matt Giwer on 12 Jul 94 09:57:00, Charlie
Ray writes:
CR> I was specific. Haven't you learned comprehensive reading skills
CR> God is uncaused. He is totally and completely transcendant over s
CR> and time and is eternal, without beginning or end. Pure science
CR> insists that every effect must have a cause, thus the theory of an
CR> infinite series of cycles in an eternally self-existent universe i
CR> unscientific. Can you grasp that, or do I need to break it down f
CR> you?
JN>It is completly within the relm of pure science for a universe to exist
JN>without
JN>a begining or end, trancending space and time as it were. The oscilati
JN>universe theory in cosmology can be based completely on known observati
JN>such an universe would not have a begining or end as we know it.
Really? I'd like to see the human who was around long enough to witness
such phenomena in action and lived to explain it to the rest of us. Must
have one heck of a longevity.
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
Fidonet @1:2370/10
Wilmore, KY, the Holy City.
I ain't no sysop, but I am A/G.
Internet:
charlie.ray@profbbs.com
* WR # 461 * Highest proof of virtue: boundless power w/o abuse.
--- WM v3.11/91-0006
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--------
From: Charlie Ray
To: David Rice
Sub: Yet another observation
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:56:00
--------
EID:c245 1cf16f00
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E0E
Hello DAVID RICE...
Message from: DAVID RICE
To: ALL
Yet another observation
07-15-94 11:55
DR> _______________________
DR> |
|
DR> | Father forgive them
|
DR> ________ / | for they know not
|
DR> | | / | what they do.
|
DR> | &@@@@& | / |
|
DR> l@@@@@@@@@l / |_______________________|
DR> l& 0 0 &l/
DR> l( V )l
DR> jll( {---} )lll
DR> jlll (VVVVV)|lllj
DR> \\\! jjj| |VVV| |jjjj !///
DR> \@@@____________| / V \|______________@@@/
DR> | \ *\ / \ /* /|
DR> | \ \______/ \_______/ / |
DR> |_____\_______ , , __________/___|
DR> { }
DR> { }
DR> \ /
DR> | |
DR> |\ -|- /|
DR> |/ \|
DR> ( )
DR> { }
DR> { ^ }
DR> { | | }
DR> | |/ /|
DR> { | } |
DR> |\ \ | |
DR> | \ \| |
DR> | U\* \ |
DR> | U\ \ |
DR> | UUU |
DR> | |
DR> | |
DR> |________|
Rev. Charlie Ray
Fidonet @1:2370/10
Wilmore, KY, the Holy City.
I ain't no sysop, but I am A/G.
Internet:
charlie.ray@profbbs.com
* WR # 461 * Error chokes the windows of the mind.
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--------
From: Charlie Ray
To: David Rice
Sub: My Twit List
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:3338 1cf16f40
MSGID: 1:2370/1 86E21E11
Hello DAVID RICE...
Message from: DAVID RICE
To: ALL
My Twit List
07-15-94 11:56
DR>I've been twitting several folks in this echo for the past two
DR>or three weeks, and it has helped cut back on the noise
DR>considerably. Since the following have demonstrated -NO- value
DR>in being read, they are excised from my reading. Sorry! It is
DR>very likely that as the echo becomes even more crowded, I'll
DR>add more names to the list. There just isn't time enough in
DR>the day to respond to every idiot who begs for attention.
DR>BILL CONNER
DR>S.N. MOZUMDER
DR>STEVE BEDARD
DR>CHARLIE J. RAY
DR>CHARLIE RAY
DR>TED HOLDEN
DR>RICHARD THORNEYCROFT
DR>MIKE STAAB
DR>MOHAMMAD KHAN
DR>JOHNNY MCKINNEY
DR>MICHAEL HARDY
DR>JOHN JEANNEAULT
DR>MARK FOX
DR>CHARLIE RAY
DR>JOHN PREWETT
DR>JIM STAAL
DR>NATHAN DUTTON
DR>KEN WIENS
DR>MARGUERITE KENDALL
DR>DAN LAFFERTY
DR>DAVE OOSTERMAN
DR>JERRY RANDALL
DR>BOB SEWELL
DR>RAOUL NEWTON
DR>RIC REMINGTON
If you can't handle the truth, stay out of the kitchen, Dave. BTW, I'm
flattered that I made your list a total of three times. I must be getting
through.
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Charlie Ray
Fidonet @1:2370/10
Wilmore, KY, the Holy City.
I ain't no sysop, but I am A/G.
Internet:
charlie.ray@profbbs.com
* WR # 461 * Fools say there is no God.
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--------
From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: After all, that's what Christ did.
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:32:56
--------
EID:379d 1cf09c00
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e286ec80
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2e257373
Tyler A. Wunder wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
TAW> G'day Marguerite:
TAW> In a msg of , Derek Clayton writes to
TAW> Marguerite Kendall:
FR>>> Now. What is "perfect" and by whos standards?
MK>> Put in simple language.
MK>> Have you ever done anything wrong, lie, steal, etc.
MK>> The one that is perfect, is the one that can do absolutely everything
MK>> that is right, right the first time.
DC> "When the Lord saw how wicked everyone on earth was and how evil their
DC> thoughts were all the time, he was sorry that he had ever made them
and
DC> put
DC> them on the earth. He was so filled with regret..."
DC> Genesis 6:5-6
TAW> Dare I ask, but did you get the point, Marguerite?
Yes, I have sinned. I have lied, stole, done lots of things wrong. Because
I
'm covered by the blood of Christ (Christ died on the cross for me), I'm
forgi
ven.
You see, Christ (Jesus) was the only one that was perfect. He never did
anyth
ing wrong, he never lied, stole, cheated, or anything.
The passage that you are talking about, is from Genesis 6:5-6 yes. But
that i
s the Old Testament. And this was before the flood of Noah.
Remember after the flood, God, said, that the would never destory the earth
ag
ain. In fact, his promise of that, was the rainbow, in the sky.
mgk.
TAW> ---
TAW> * Origin: Skepticism has no choir. (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Can Christianity be Proven.
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:36:56
--------
EID:5546 1cf09c80
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e286ec81
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 6096c004
Styx Allum wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
> I don't appreciate the language of "self-serving morons",
I don't believe I ever wrote that above sentence.
I do speak english.
Styx, why don't we just agree to disagree.
See you. Have a great day.
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Christ was perfect.
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:41:16
--------
EID:f6a3 1cf09d20
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e286ec82
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 60179c68
Styx Allum wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
> Christ was perfect, and sinless.
Styx:
Surely, you can write better messages than this.
How bad can things get.
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Wake Up, Maggie...
Date: 16 Jul 94 19:43:10
--------
EID:2fd5 1cf09d60
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e286ec83
REPLY: 1:109/601 2e27715c
Steve Rose wrote in a message to Don Martin:
DM> By me, she is quite welcome to post all she likes, so long as
DM> she mostly writes her own stuff and posts honestly to real people
DM> with real concerns/questions.
SR> What a concept for M.K. to try: making actual honest
SR> statements without the usual babble clap-trap quotes that
SR> typically fowls all her postings!
I been doing just that, you know.
DM> Frankly, she is too good a butt to lose.
SR> And at 40 years of age...there is still enough time left for
SR> her to learn how to use it beneficially.
Yes, I'm using it beneficially, to God's glory.
I get questions now and then, its great.
Thank you for the comment.
I'm remember that, when I'm gone on AT next month.
Just think most of August, I won't be writing in Holysmoke.
But, when I get home, I got a lot of catching up to do.
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:48:44
--------
EID:c6ef 1cf16e00
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f850
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 2e26b50c
Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
-=> Quoting Marguerite Kendall to All <=-
MK> Hello All!
PS> Margie, I'm afraid you've been warned before about posting
PS> tracts in here. I thought you said you'd "learned your
PS> lesson" and were going to "change your attitude."
I believe that Comsoon txt was one of my old ones. It may still be around.
So bear with me.
Since that little bit of uprising, I posted about four things on christianity
and the bible. But these were not uploaded, they were actually typed from
scr
atch. And put brief introductions in the messages, as to what they were.
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Intelligent messages
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:51:48
--------
EID:cb48 1cf16e60
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f851
REPLY: 1:350/401 86DE1BCE
Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
-> On 07-08-94 07:20, Marguerite Kendall got back to C. J. Henshaw
-> Re: Intelligent messages
CJH> Uh huh. And HOLY_BIBLE is a Satan debate echo.
MK> Is this because of the moderator, Steve Winter.
MK> Hope not.
DC> Best bet: If there is a Satan, Steve would fit the bill.
I am not going to put Steve Winter into any category, including that of
the ab
ove mentioned one "of satan".
Please don't judge him.
Holy Bible is not a satan debate echo. It is a bible discussion echo, which
t
he users, must use passages from scripture to make a point.
Yes, I get that conference too. And I am not all that crazy about it.
I like the Wholly_bible conference better. And the bible conference to.
But this one, (Bible) seems to have lost its national backbone feed, and
right
now, it is floating just around the DC area, with no messages being inputted
in it at all, hardly.
mgk
---
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From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Patty COMESOON
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:55:44
--------
EID:420e 1cf16ee0
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f852
REPLY: 1:109/601 2e27eb5d
Steve Rose wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
MK>> Hello All!
MK>> COMING SOON!
MK>
SR>> Is it that time of the month, already?? Or did Pat
SR>> Robertson pay a surprise visit to your neighborhood?
MK>
MK> I know, Pat Robertson paid a surprise visit to your television set
SR> Pretty hard for him to do that here...since I placed a
SR> 'fundy-filter' on my cable box to skip over his trashy CBN
SR> 700-Club Network channel. Sorry I have to miss re-runs of
SR> "The New Rin-Tin-Tin" show, though...but that's the breaks.
Steve:
You are gross and don't make any sense half the time.
mgk.
---
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--------
From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Re: The Bible vs what?
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:58:36
--------
EID:ed31 1cf16f40
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f853
Phil Morrison wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
> I don't think so, but because; The BIBLE is still the most popular book
> in the world. Is still the most read book in the world.
PM>
PM> Or was it the PDR ?
PM>
PM> Anyway, just reading it does little good,
PM> unless the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning...
PM>
PM> phil
You know you are right.
Have you done that.
---
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--------
From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: Yes.
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:00:50
--------
EID:5669 1cf17000
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f854
REPLY: 1:231/285 86E079BE
Chris Ferree wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
MK>I won't change my faith in Christ. It just gets straightened, everytime
I
MK>debunked by a Holysmoke writer.
CF> ~~~~~~~~
CF> You are either a truly ignorant person, been drinking too
CF> much, or are _dying_ to get into Fredric's quotes file.
CF> Debunking means showing that something is incorrect -- are
CF> you admitting that?
MK> RS> Oh goody! Fresh meat!
MK>May say that now, and I seem to be an easy target. Some of the other
ones
MK>know aren't.
CF> Are these new fundies going to each drop half-meg mail
CF> bombs? And did you recruit these yourself?
You know, that are already some fundies on this echo, but you don't know
whom
they are.
No, they won't drop half-meg mailbombs either.
---
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--------
From: Marguerite Kendall
To: Zaynab Richmond
Sub: Baha'i - Fire Tablet 1
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:02:18
--------
EID:d52b 1cf17040
MSGID: 1:109/388.0 e296f855
Zaynab Richmond wrote in a message to All:
ZR> Hello, I am Zaynab, joining this echo from the San Francisco
ZR> Bay Area. I am a member of the Baha'i Faith and am here to
ZR> answer any questions you may have about it.
ZR> In honor of the name of this echo, HOLYSMOKE, today I am
ZR> posting the Fire Tablet written by Baha'u'llah, for I have
ZR> heard that where there is smoke, there must be fire...
ZR> Indeed, when we read this Holy Tablet out loud, we find that
ZR> the spiritual fire is lit within us.
Hello and welcome to Holysmoke. Holy (don't know anything holy about it).
Sm
oke there is plenty of that. Stay around and see.
I've been on this echo now for a couple of months.
You will probably find that its pretty wild and woolly here.
Be prepared to get debunked, laughed at, and made fun of.
You might want to read some of the most FAQ's and you're see what I mean.
I am a christian myself and know from experience.
I want to give you a little warning. (Because of previous experience).
I would be careful about posting uploads, as its not too well like.
You might want to try original typed material.
I did find your fire Tablets interesting though.
Thanks for posting them.
mgk.
---
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--------
From: Alan Jennings
To: Don Martin
Sub: New Ordinations
Date: 17 Jul 94 11:33:00
--------
EID:8afc 1cf15c20
MSGID: 1:3800/6 630b6222
REPLY: 1:109/519.0 2e2715e8
PID: QE 2.75+ & FM 2.02
Okay, that's one for "Hoobah", and one for "Shepherd of the Rectum"
Looks like we have a nomination for the "Hoobah" being Styx Allum. Do you
have
a candidate for SOTR?
---
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--------
From: Alan Jennings
To: David Rice
Sub: New Ordinations
Date: 17 Jul 94 11:35:00
--------
EID:23d6 1cf15c60
MSGID: 1:3800/6 630b6223
PID: QE 2.75+ & FM 2.02
> I nominate Steve Rose.
Is that for Hoobah, or the SOTR title instigated by Rev. Martin?
---
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Questions
Date: 18 Jul 94 11:49:16
--------
EID:1021 1cf25e20
PS> The conversion to Christianity was inevitable. Constantine
PS> saw that, and, being
PS> the pragmatist that he was, "converted" to make the pope
PS> happy and got a LOT
PS> more influence than he might otherwise have had.
There wasn't a "pope" in Constantine's time. The bishops of Rome had
always claimed to be 'first amoung equals', but it wasn't until Gregory
VII (1073-1085) that the office of the Roman bishop became a seat of
central control. It was Gregory who claimed that only the bishop of
Rome could be called "Papa".
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Matt Giwer
Sub: The Collapse of Evol 2/2
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:10:39
--------
EID:c455 1cf05940
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E1A0F4
-> I would suggest you look up the meaning of the word curse
-> and you will find f--k, sh-t, p--s, c--t, c--k and the like are
-> not included.
You won't find the words themselves in the dictionary either but that
still doesn't say that they aren't degrading words used against another
individual. And the fact that you placed them above doesn't make you
that much smarter than those who constantly do it in this echo. It just
shows the level to which those will go to who do not want to hear other
peoples opinions.
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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--------
From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Matt Giwer
Sub: The Collapse of Evol 2/2
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:13:30
--------
EID:c455 1cf059a0
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E1A0F5
-> It is also their choice to post meaningless garbage, a
-> choice that is well exercised in this case. There are no facts
-> or theory to such nonsense.
->
-> And in choosing to post they accept the consequences in this
-> echo. Fools are identified as fools very quickly and without
-> mercy.
Remember you will be measured with the same ruler that you measure....
A fool is he who calls another a Fool...
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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--------
From: Richard Rodriguez
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Respond please...
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:18:10
--------
EID:838f 1cf05a40
MSGID: 1:377/77.2 86E1A0F6
-> No one sneezed.
Cute but very ignorant!
-> You echo message, yes. Your fundy gawd-superstitions? Naw. That i
-> for the ignorants who buy into it. You can keep it.
No one asked what you think of me and my superstitions as you put it, I
asked a simple question,"are you getting my message?", that simple! I
know it's difficult for you not to act obnoxious but try and refrain
next time it might be a little troublesome but try it nevertheless....
--- WM v3.11/93-0962
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--------
From: Brian Kolacy
To: Ryan Shaw
Sub: Re What!
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:29:11
--------
EID:72cc 1cf1b3a0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 78972744
(On 07-16-94 RYAN SHAW replied to MARGUERITE KENDALL)
RS>Marguerite Kendall wrote in a message to Chris Lee:
RS> MK> My spouse is the normal kind, like you and me.
RS> MK> A HUMAN BEING.
RS>Define "normal." After you are finished with that, define
RS>your god.
I'm still wondering why she and her "normal" spouse spawned 4 legged
children...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
---
* CmpQwk 1.40m #9044 * * <-Tribble # <-Tribble after Borg assimilation.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Matt Giwer
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: assumption
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:46:11
--------
EID:3a29 1cf195c0
MSGID: 1:3603/10@fidonet.org 79002f58
HP> MG>The energy density was too high for even quarks to exist.
HP> There are higher energy particles than quarks. :-)
Which are?
In any event the entire universe was at one point in a
volume no greater than one Planc length.
---
* RM 1.3 01261 * Double O Limbaugh, License to annoy.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: "Because _Salem's Lo
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:17:00
--------
EID:1760 1cf09220
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BCC
-> On 07-08-94 22:36, Ken Wiens got back to Charlie Ray
-> Re: "Because _Salem's Lo
CR> of praise, think about these things. 9 Keep on doing the things that
CR> you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, and the God
of
CR> peace will be with you. (NRSV)
KW> Again, excellent, Charlie. The truth is there for all to see.
Ken, you just said that the NRSV of the bible is true. Would
you care to substantiate that claim with some evidence as to
its validity?
... Trust a god who will send me to hell because of the way HE made me?
DD
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Joseph Brooks
Sub: Re: bible
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:41:00
--------
EID:dd33 1cf09520
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BCD
-> On 07-11-94 19:59, Joseph Brooks got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: bible
DC> that your babble teaches.... Maybe they should have prayed for
DC> talking rocks, rather than death and destruction.
JB> Again, I spew no such babble. I was merely rebutting the idea that
JB> all prayer is destructive and 'worse than useless'.
Do you happen to have conclusive evidence that prayer works,
other than as a plecebo for the prayer?
JB> forum and you have the right to jump in where you will but its
JB> generally a good idea to know who you're responding to
I've been around here for just a bit. It may be that the feeds
have never gotten around to posting a message to my node from
yours. Things like that do happen.
JB> militant athiests are as bad or worse than pushy bible thumpers...
I'm not militant. Just look at what has been said, and make
a comment or add information or ask questions, as warranted.
As you seem to have taken great offense to my comments, perhaps
it is you that are the militant one... A simple, "Hey, that's not
what I meant", or "Hey, take a look at the other things I've
said" or a "Fuck off, I'm an agnostic", would have been
sufficient. (BTW, why aren't you an atheist?)
As for where I "jump in", I'll do that where and when I choose.
But, thank you for your concern. It's been a pleasure meeting
you. We must have more of these discusions. I find it amusing.
JB> Brokedown Palace "I will choose free will..." (1:202/1312)
I made my mind my free will. Just never got around to
having to ask to have my own opinion.... :)
... All your future lies beneath your hat.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Can Christianity be P
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:46:00
--------
EID:ad47 1cf095c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BCE
-> On 07-14-94 05:07, Nathan Dutton got back to Mark Drake
-> Re: Re: Can Christianity be P
MD> Because, un-like those of you who believe in a dead god, my God and
MD> Goddess have appeared in front of me, talked to me, given me advice.
ND> JESUS is in controll of your God and Goddess for your God and
Do you happen to know the names of his God and Godess? How
can you be so sure that your God is more powerful than his
God an Godess?
ND> Goddess you claim to talk to you are nothing more than Demons.
I trust you have some evidence to support that claim.
ND> You are most likely possessed by them but by the Name of Jesus
ND> You can be set Free.
With therapy, you can be set free from the demon that possesses
you. Can you take that first step?
... It's ALWAYS dark if you never open your eyes!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: cannot
Date: 16 Jul 94 18:57:00
--------
EID:a1ca 1cf09720
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BCF
-> On 07-14-94 21:54, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: cannot
-> MH> in fact do believe there are things God cannot do ... things tha
-> MH> violate His basic nature.
-> Well, Michael, do tell us some of the things your god cannot
MH> attributes -- perfect righteousness and perfect love. All that fuss
on
MH> the cross was necessary to reconcile the two.
Fuss? Could you please elaborate on that "fuss"...
MH> This means he lacks the *will* to do those things, not the *power*.
So, god does not have the willpower to do things to help the
entire human race? You say he has the power...
MH> Because the just and the loving often conflct, we have the cross
MH> and the ensuing grace.
I punish my kids when the do wrong. That is showing love,
because if I didn't love them, I'd let them grow up to be
perfect brats. At the same time, I attempt to make their
lives better than mine. Part of that is giving them, in a
small way, a better world to grow up in. "Just" goes with
"love". Separating the two results in doting and spoiling
the next generation of caretakers of the planet we have. I'll
not sit back and watch it despoiled due to my remiss in showing
my kids their role as a part of this world's ecology.
MH> Specifics? I wouldn't presume to limit God by guessing. But those
MH> principles outlined above comprise the general.
Well, Michael, I'd still like to see some specifics. If your
guessing at what god can/can't do limits him, must be a rather
insecure deity.
... In Tasmania, if you get a divorce, technically you're STILL cousins.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Re: Christ was perfect.
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:07:00
--------
EID:98df 1cf0a0e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD0
-> On 07-10-94 16:26, Ken Wiens got back to Martin Goldberg
-> Re: Re: Christ was perfect.
MG> Do you have any ACCURATE HISTORICAL REFERENCES for this?
MG> Do not quote the bible. You do not prove the bible by
KW> I see so many people engaging in this fallacy that one cannot
KW> prove the Bible or support the Bible by quoting it. The Bible
Martin has forwared me a message from you. I have it in
my possession. It say you owe me $1,000,000. Care to
pay up now?
I quote:
"I, Ken Wiens, owe Dan Ceppa, the sum of $1,000,000, payable
on demand."
I expect payment, now.
Don't bother to deny it. I have the message.
... Jesus is the Lord's Shepherd, Elvis had a thing for Cybil Shepherd
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Re: Christ was perfect.
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:16:00
--------
EID:34fd 1cf0a200
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD1
-> On 07-12-94 21:49, Steve Lew got back to Martin Goldberg
-> Re: Re: Christ was perfect.
MG>offer instant evidence of your god. do it now or we will
SL> then look at the riches that I would receive in Heaven. If there is
no
SL> God, and I spent my life the same way and died then I have not lost
Does that include your killing innocent children as well? I
find it a bit hard to take when someone condones a death cult.
You want to do yourself in, that's up to you. But, do leave
the children out of your scheme. They'd like to have a life,
and deserve a life of their own, thank you.
... Shepherds for Christ: Poor pay, but all the sheep you can fleece!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Re: Christian hate group
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:24:00
--------
EID:3d70 1cf0a300
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD2
-> On 07-14-94 06:42, Jesse Jones got back to Doug Brewer
-> Re: Re: Christian hate group
DB>no such thing as a Christian "hate group". There are only hateful
DB>--- Impeach Klinton NOW!
JJ> Hmmm.... My brother, do you think there might be something
JJ> inconsistent with your expressed disdain for preaching hate and your
JJ> political tagline, which on one fell swoop implies Germans are Nazis,
Jesse, do you maybe now see why those that are not part of
you beliefs have a reason to fear those beliefs? Just a
little?
Personally, I don't call anyone "brother", as I have 2 sisters.
I have learned to call a lot of people "friend".... I think
you catch my drift on that distinction.
Any comments on Doug Brewer's message/tag and this post from
me to you?
(The taglines gods are being tough tonight! Had to change that
Auto-select about "lawyers" )
... "For he *is* the Kwisatz Haderach!" -- Alia Atreides
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Christian or not?
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:31:00
--------
EID:2e03 1cf0a3e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD3
-> On 07-12-94 01:09, Kelsey Bjarnason got back to Eddie Benson
-> Re: Re: Christian or not?
EB> is a Deist?
KB> "And God proceeded to create the heavens and the earth, and then
KB> proceeded to fuck off and leave it all to rot ..." Thumper 3:15
Is this in the Archives yet? If not, why not?
... Fundamentalism: Believe in a kind, loving God or we'll kill you.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: evidence
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:52:00
--------
EID:593b 1cf0a680
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD4
-> On 07-14-94 22:07, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: evidence
-> Why worry about "authenticity" when you have no intention
-> of using the "validity" of the gospels as evidence?
->
MH> I posted a message saying the Resurrection was attested to by
MH> documented history. I then IMMEDIATELY said that the history I meant
MH> was the rapid rise of the church after the death of its founder.
Rapid rise? What yeast are you using? The Jersulem Church,
a part of Judaism, did not grow rapidly. It, itself, died.
Where the religion got rolling was due to Saul landing
on his head and starting a new amalgamated mythos of a
bit of Judaisim, some of the Juraslem Church, and a lot
of the Mythraisim Saul grew up in.
MH> The authenticity of the gospels is an important point to argue,
MH> but I was not offering them as direct evidence of the Resurrection.
I know you know that. What is the evidence that you have to
provide?
... The gene pool could use a little chlorine
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Andrew Ruys
Sub: exasperation
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:07:00
--------
EID:6050 1cf0a8e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD5
-> On 07-10-94 10:04, Andrew Ruys got back to Matt Giwer
-> Re: exasperation
AR> following bizarre rituals. This is why open minded people eagerly
AR> convert.
AR> There is such a thing as a free lunch ;-)
Provide that "free lunch" of yours to Somalia and Ethiopia
tonight. Do it by the time I get your response to this
posting to you.
If your god doesn't intervene, then, tell him for me, that he's
an asshole. Pur, and unadulterated.
Thank you for your co-operation.
... Sorry about your RectoCranial Inversion.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Re: G-d
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:18:00
--------
EID:a181 1cf0aa40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD6
-> On 07-08-94 22:13, Ken Wiens got back to Preston Simpson
-> Re: Re: G-d
PS> What examples of this design can you show us, Ken?
KW>
KW> One obvious example is the human body.
Do you happen to wear glasses? How about a hearing aid? How's
your appendix doing? Been able to hand wrestle a cow to the
ground to get your daily meat?
... Divide by zero error -- protection violation 0666 -- truth entered
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: glitch
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:20:00
--------
EID:9ec2 1cf0aa80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD7
-> On 07-14-94 21:47, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: glitch
-> -> Now, where's your evidence?
-> ->
->
->
-> MH> -!- WM v3.10/93-0963
->
-> Seeing as how this is your entire post on Shelby's request for
->
MH> Obviously a glitch of some sort occurred. I would not waste the
MH> time it would take to post a message without saying something in it.
Well, please enlighten me as to your response to Shelby....
Do youhave some evidence to provide us of your god?
... Atheists have no invisible means of support.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: Godly Noodles?!
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:26:00
--------
EID:8d1c 1cf0ab40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD8
-> On 07-13-94 03:14, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: Godly Noodles?!
DC> (from: Comments from A. Gnocchi. Rebutals are found in the
DC> Book of Anitpasto, by Peitro Pepperonni)
JH> Just remember this:
JH> The Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Ramens did.
Beef or chicken flavored? Either way, they are Top.....
... +Origin: SWORD NETWORK: Raping, Pillaging, and Killing for Kneezus.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: paul
Date: 17 Jul 94 07:13:00
--------
EID:a325 1cf139a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BD9
-> On 07-14-94 22:05, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: paul
-> MH> guidance of Paul's mythmaking, why don't they mesh more in the f
->
-> The Pauline letters, at least the one that Paul/Saul actually
-> wrote, pre-date the gospels.
->
MH> I know that, that was part of the point of my discussion with
MH> John. If the gospels were indeed written decades after the bulk of the
-> MH> generation after the fact, why not have Peter or one of the Gosp
-> MH> authors witness it?
->
-> The Jerusalem Church, of which Peter was a member, was at odds
-> with the very radical and non-Judaic teachings that Saul
MH> That wasn't the question. The question was, if someone was writing
But, it's part of the answer. The Jerusalem Church was simply
a branch of Judaism. It held that Jesus was the Messiah, not
god incarnate. Such an idea would be against their religion.
MH> the Resurrection, why not strengthen the story by saying that Peter
MH> witnessed it?
Why does the earliest of the gospels not even include the
story of Jesus' birth?
MH> All four of the G's say no one witnessed the Resurrection. Why not
MH> have an eyewitness? Wouldn't that make the story sound more authentic?
MH> "It happened, and I saw it."
And, they could not document it. After all, Saul had never met
Jesus.
-> MH> *Why not include in the Gospels an account of the 500 witnesses
->
-> Because there weren't _any_?
->
MH> Same question. Paul says there were. If the Gospels were written
It's easier to tell a tall tale of a friend of a friend type. Just
enough pseudo-background to sound plausible.
-> MH> (Interesting, isn't it, that the minor disagreements among the
-> MH> gospels actually work FOR their authenticity?)
->
-> Really???? In what way?
->
MH> By making collusion theories far-fetched.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that they were written in
collusion. However, they were written to explain the way that
the "prophecies" came to pass. Two of them were written at
about the same time. Yet, they show discrepancies. They are
nothing more than the authors imbelishments of the myth created
by Saul, in an attempt to reconcile the new religion with OT
prophecies.
... "Bother," said Pooh, and called in an air strike.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Trouble!
Date: 17 Jul 94 07:30:00
--------
EID:6cfa 1cf13bc0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E31BDA
-> On 07-08-94 21:45, Ken Wiens got back to Robert Curry
-> Re: Trouble!
RC> Why state that? Is it because you just like to make empty threats?
KW>
KW> I say that because making fun of the true God is a serious thing.
Which "true god" are you referring to? Yahweh? Jehovah? Vishnu?
Odin? Athena? Zeus?
KW> The results for those who persist are, as evidenced by the
KW> biblical record, unpleasant to say the least.
More empty threats that have a bad habit of making some of
their believers carry it out for real.... Bet you are a big
fan of Chuck Manson and Jimmy Jones.
... Myth-conceptions are the major cause of wars.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: All
Sub: in the news
Date: 12 Jul 94 19:29:00
--------
EID:4deb 1cec9ba0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB2
I just ran across this message in my local Religion message
base. Though that some of you would be interested....
* Reply to msg originally in WorldRelig
-> On 07-12-94 02:44, Larry Rosenblum got back to All
-> Re: in the news
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
Contact: Diane Ainsworth
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 5, 1994
Writings based on the Book of Genesis, dating back
at least 2,000 years, are being examined this month by a
team of researchers from Southern California using space age
imaging techniques that could unlock their secrets.
Dr. Gregory Bearman, a physicist from the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is working with colleagues at the
Shrine of the Book in Israel to examine one of the Dead Sea
Scrolls known as the Genesis Apocryphon, a popular retelling
of narratives from the Book of Genesis.
The research is being sponsored by the Ancient
Biblical Manuscript Center in Claremont, Calif., which
houses the world's most extensive collection of Dead Sea
Scroll images and makes them available for research.
Bearman first applied infrared imaging techniques
to a fragment of the scroll last year and was able to
distinguish enough of the black ink in infrared wavelengths
-- beyond what the human eye can see -- to read the text.
Further examination revealed traces of letters on the
fragment that have suggested to scholars it may be a chapter
heading introducing the words of Noah.
Photographic infrared imaging has been used for
years to examine Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient
documents that appear to be virtually illegible. Because of
their age and exposure to the elements, though, even
infrared photography cannot provide enough contrast between
the lettering and the parchment or animal skins on which the
texts are written to make out words or letters.
When they are imaged digitally, however,
researchers are able to view the documents in a narrower
wavelength band that can sometimes reveal more detail.
The process is part of a space-age imaging
technique called multi-spectral imaging -- or imaging in a
variety of wavelengths -- derived from the development of
remote-sensing instruments on board spacecraft exploring other
planets of the solar system.
The technology is used not only to image planets
but their atmospheres in multiple, contiguous wavelengths.
Typical systems today incorporate more than 100 wavelengths.
One of the earlier versions of the imaging
technology -- the near infrared mapping spectrometer -- is
currently en route to Jupiter as part of the Galileo
mission. A more recent derivative -- the visible and
infrared mapping spectrometer -- is under development for
the Cassini mission to Saturn.
Bearman uses solid-state sensors and computer
image-processing to examine the scrolls. The digital
information gives researchers higher spectral resolution
than an infrared photograph can. Consequently, very slight
differences in colors and textures are detectable through
their unique wavelength characteristics.
This month the Ancient Biblical Manuscript Center
imaging team will both photograph and electronically image a
number of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Members of the team include
Sheila Spiro, director of the center, Dr. Bruce Zuckerman,
associate professor of religion at the University of
Southern California, Ken Zuckerman of West Semitic Research
and Israeli photographer Ronnie Heymann. The Zuckermans
specialize in photography of ancient documents and
inscriptions.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are religious writings in
Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek that were preserved in earthen
jars and are generally believed to have been left by a
Jewish community living near the Dead Sea at the turn of the
millennium. Hundreds of the scrolls were found in the 1940s
and 1950s in caves in the vicinity.
The researchers will image the entire Genesis
Apocryphon scroll, written on sheep skin that has been dated
to between the second century B.C.E. (Before Common Era) and
the first century C.E. (Common Era). The scroll measures
about 11 feet long by 1 foot wide (330 centimeters by 30
centimeters).
The team has also been invited by the Israel
Antiquities Authority to conduct a pilot project, along with
the organization's photographers, conservators and computer
experts, on a number of their Dead Sea Scroll holdings.
While continuing to advance the sensor and
information-processing technologies necessary for multi-
spectral imaging, JPL is also actively involved in
transferring the technology to industry and in developing
commercial and other ground-based applications.
A grant from NASA's Small Business Innovation
Research Program has made it possible for the Laboratory to
work in partnership with Cambridge Research and
Instrumentation in Cambridge, Mass., to miniaturize the
technology and drive down costs.
With the continued development of more compact and
lightweight instruments, imaging specialists believe the
technology will find applications wherever identification of
materials is important.
Multi-spectral imaging, for instance, has
important applications in such fields as archaeology,
oceanography, geology and atmospheric studies. Commercial
applications, in turn, could benefit a variety of industries
including agriculture, graphics, manufacturing and medicine.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ryan Shaw
Sub: Re: " Time to quit "
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:29:00
--------
EID:7f44 1ceca3a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB3
-> On 07-10-94 16:32, Ryan Shaw got back to Christopher Baker
-> Re: Re: " Time to quit "
CB> TTFN.
CB> Chris
RS> Just wondering, what does the "TTFN" mean?
(T)eology: (T)ruly (F)ull of (N)ooooodles!
... Skeptics in Jerusalem - "Geeez!"-ers of Nazareth!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Dave Oosterman
Sub: Re: "Because _Salem's Lot
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:34:00
--------
EID:b808 1ceca440
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB4
-> On 07-09-94 23:57, Dave Oosterman got back to Mike Hill
-> Re: Re: "Because _Salem's Lot
MH> I really must dispute the above qoute, as my wife and I will have
MH> been married nine years this Oct. 5. We have known each other 15 years
Gee...., Dave, you ddn't bother to quote it.
MH> before marrying. I always incourage a couple who are comtemplating
MH> marrige to live together for a while first. Why? Because if they
DO> Without the documentation, I cannot dispute you. I will look for the
DO> source, and get back (if I find it).
I'm not sure, but if you ask Mike, he may u/l it here.
DO> ... ...The world crowns success, but God crowns faithfulness
He plays checkers? That's interesting. Let me know when he
learns how to play chess.
... ++++++ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a SAVIOR outta my ass!! :-)
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Re: "Heathens"
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:37:00
--------
EID:65b8 1ceca4a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB5
-> On 07-07-94 23:42, Ken Wiens got back to Hector Plasmic
-> Re: Re: "Heathens"
KW> There are plenty of reasons.
HP> There's another assertion. Where are the _reasons_, little fundy?
KW> not been reading my messages? For starters, study the human
KW> body. No design? It is all a conglomeration of meaningless,
KW> senseless mush?
Give us a call when you much needed appendix is removed. I'm
sure some one would gladly allow you to have their appendix
transplanted in you, just to save your life.
... Entropy! "And the computer said, 'let there be light'"
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Johnny Mckinney
Sub: Re: "Heathens"
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:40:00
--------
EID:ca34 1ceca500
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB6
-> On 07-08-94 17:36, Johnny Mckinney got back to Eddie Benson
-> Re: Re: "Heathens"
EB> What about the Hindus, Buddhists, etc. Are we supposed to
EB>believe that with out the god of Abraham, the world would have gone
EB>to hell in a hand basket.
JM> Correct-a-mundo!
Gee, Johnny, I'm sure you could back up that claim with a
bit of evidence to support it.... You can, can't you? I've
got a big bet riding on it.
... Bang! goes the kanga off the bonnet of the van...
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: "Wake up"
Date: 13 Jul 94 01:02:00
--------
EID:cae6 1ced0840
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB7
-> On 07-09-94 22:23, Marguerite Kendall got back to Fredric Rice
-> Re: "Wake up"
FR> If you elect to post 500K of occult mythology again, please
MK> Occult is to mean that of satan. Please.
Only a god, such as Satan, would allow 500K. Lesser gods
only are force their adherents to post reasonable message
lengths.
So, witch is it for you?
... Black holes happened when God tried to divide by Zero
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: 12-headed guy
Date: 13 Jul 94 01:08:00
--------
EID:9c9e 1ced0900
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB8
-> On 07-09-94 01:18, Michael Hardy got back to Robert Curry
-> Re: 12-headed guy
MH> Your Great Dodecaheaded One, on the other hand, is an obvious
MH> parody which you have invented intending to demonstrate what you
MH> consider the absurdity of faith. It is a joke.
MH>
MH> Does that help clear it up?
Think about it. Think about it hard, until your ears bleed.
If you don't see the joke, you haven't thought about it.
... Sorry Captain Bedard, you don't get to just "make it so".
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: Another fundy falls
Date: 13 Jul 94 01:25:00
--------
EID:3f33 1ced0b20
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BB9
-> On 07-08-94 21:52, John Jeanneault got back to Steve Rose
-> Re: Another fundy falls
SR> In other words...you have no such gawd. You just echo reality. Thought
SR> so.
JJ> In a sense yes....One would expect reality to echo God.
Then your god is must be like the FIDO net... Or like the
Grand Canyon. As they are both holes, you god's a hole too.
(Sorry, the prefix to "hole" should have been "ass")
... I am Peter Popoff of Borg. Prepare to reach God at 37.15 megahertz.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Christian's answer
Date: 13 Jul 94 08:33:00
--------
EID:8010 1ced4420
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BBA
-> On 07-09-94 10:08, Steve Lew got back to Chris Lee
-> Re: Christian's answer
CL> the words of God? Bible is full of lies. Bible is book written by Jews.
SL> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SL> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO BACK THIS UP!!! It is bad enough that you are
SL> making atheist remarks but now you dwell into the agnostic views by
SL> making such profane allegations. FYI, the bible was NOT written solely
SL> by Jews. Does the Roman Paul ring a bell?
Sure does.... Isn't he the one that says that it's ok to
lie for the lord?
... More I learn about religion...more I like Video games
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Johnston
Sub: evidence
Date: 13 Jul 94 11:10:00
--------
EID:53c1 1ced5940
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BBB
-> On 07-08-94 00:38, David Johnston got back to Chris Lee
-> Re: evidence
DJ> I do have to point out that NOBODY has a clean conscience.
I take it that yours is bothering you.
-> Why do God kill people and kill them again in the hell if he has
-> unconditional love?
DJ> From a heaven oriented perspective, death is no biggie.
Ahh, that explains your troubled conscience..
> However, I do
DJ> have to point out that Christianity doesn't think that God's love is
DJ> unconditional. There is only one condition, but it's a biggie.
And to propogate their faith, they think nothing of killing
for the good works of their master. As you said, "death is
no biggie" when it comes to your death cult dogma.
... "Sight is a facility, seeing is an art."
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Daniel Hendry
Sub: Re: Pssst. You forgot th
Date: 13 Jul 94 18:03:00
--------
EID:5550 1ced9060
MSGID: 1:350/401 86DF1BBC
-> On 07-09-94 20:42, Daniel Hendry got back to Don Martin
-> Re: Re: Pssst. You forgot th
DM> DH> say thousand yeas are ridiculous. I guess then Columbus should
not
DM> DH> have siled to the new world since he had no scientific evidence
DM>
DM> No evidence that the world was a sphere? Ships do not go hull
DM> down over the horizon of a flat earth. He was aware of this
DH> Pssst...you missed the obvious....one has to get onto their ship
DH> and go to the "edge" to discover that they do not as you say "hull down
Wrong. One only has to sail a ship out of sight from it's
starting point, with the ship itself always being in sight of
land. The observation can be confirmed by observes in
both location, at various heights above sea level.
DH> But no...you have to see the proof before trying it out.
DH> Who is being silly?
You are Duckie, as Erestopanes(sp?) used the angle of the
sun at various points on the earth to work out a fairly
accurate estimate of the circumference c. 354 BCE. No
water was necessary for "the big brave sailing to the edge".
... Use the Force, Luke, Don't give in to the DOS side.- Obi Win Gates
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Atheists Crap
Date: 14 Jul 94 08:34:00
--------
EID:2b99 1cee4440
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB2
-> On 07-10-94 19:30, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Atheists Crap
DC> ... "Faith is not wishing to know what is true." -Nietzsche
JP> How long WAS Nietzsche raving insane before he died ?
JP> Just asking. WBW, John
How long were you stark raving mad before you came up with
the ressurection of JFK as the anit-crust? There may be a
correlation there...
... Christians call it "faith" ... I call it "the herd" : Nietzsche
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Re: consider this
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:11:00
--------
EID:c766 1cee4960
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB3
-> On 07-10-94 11:27, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: consider this
JP> "after their own kind" is the reality we observe.
JP>
JP> Not species turning into other species
JP> as Creatorless evolutionists imagine.
Just how long ago did you supposed event take place?
DC> seem unique in that they have an understanding of their own mortality.
JP> Thank you for granting at least one uniqueness.
Perhaps it's only one.
JP> Do animals demonstrate any concern for morality ?
There is a bird, the wounded grouse, that feigns injury to
help keep predators away from it's young.
JP> There is no rational atheist basis for morality above the
JP> level of "law of the jungle" - "might makes right".
But there is. Greater accomplishments have occured through
co-operation and negotiation.
JP> If what you say were true, then human history and the present
JP> reality of human relations would be better than it is.
Don't forget, that for the last 2000 years, Western gvts have been
part and parcel to the dogma of religion.
DC> They change from culture to culture.
JP> No matter what the culture,.....
JP> if it teaches children they are animals,
JP> then the children are being encouraged to emulate animal "culture".
You just said that animals are not sentient. Do not try to
equate the two, in either direction. It doesn't work that way.
JP> Unlike you, I don't consider humans to be animals.
Check a biology text book again, for the first time. You
will find many similarities, including such endorphines
such as insulin, that are common to animals and man.
DC> Such as the Robber Barons of the late 1800's?
JP> Are you, in typical perverted fashion, going to blame
JP> the guidance of Christ for the attitudes and behavior
JP> of the Robber Barons ?
Yep. They were following the dictates that says the world
was created to be under the control of man.
JP> Christ as NT presented provides an example of doing good for
JP> people.
Such as attacking a church and whipping people?
JP> centuries, is that presently you think humans just accidently got
DC> Not by accident, but by evolution.
JP> If you mean Creatorless "evolution",
JP> then all of life is just a big accident.
Not an "accident", but a stream of events that began with
the BB.
JP> If you mean "evolution" in the sense that cars
JP> (due to intelligent input) "evolved",
JP> then we have no dispute.
Yes we do, as your analogy does not wash. You are equating
cars with biological life.
DC> Care to hear some quotes from such staunch environmentalists as James
DC> Watt?
JP>
JP> Why should I ? I'm don't advocate heeding J.Watt.
Why not? He followed the bible and helping destroy land
and ocean environments.
... I'll never forget his last words: "What the..."
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Cut the crap, get to t
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:21:00
--------
EID:32d0 1cee4aa0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB4
-> On 07-10-94 20:37, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Cut the crap, get to t
DC> Try reading _The Myth-Maker_, by Hyam Maccoby.
DC> You will find it extremely interesting, to say the least.
JP>
JP> Paul: Most influential author in world history.
JP> Hyam Maccoby: Who ?
From what I wrote, I thought it was obvious that he was the
author of the book I referenced to Marilyn.
Just so you get it: Hyam Maccoby is the author of the
book, _The Myth-Maker_. You will learn a lot about Paul.
... +Origin: PARADOX NETWORK!: Kosher ham and cheeseburgers for Kryst!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Decay Rates
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:38:00
--------
EID:6aba 1cee4cc0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB5
-> On 07-10-94 20:54, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Decay Rates
BS> ... And God said, "E = /mv2 - Ze2 - r," and there was light.
DC> So, tell us... Why didn't god have that written into his bible,
DC> rather than such other good tidbits as Pi=3.0?
JP>
JP> Precisely where does the bible state: "Pi=3.0" ?
Try reading 1 Kings 7:23 It also states that JFK will be
found swimming in it for therapuetic purposes dues to a
nasty back injury. Unfortunately, he swam to fast and took
the top of his head off with a collision with the side of
the pool.
... "If you're gonna shoot, shoot: don't talk." -- Tuco
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Frank Waring
Sub: Deception
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:43:00
--------
EID:05eb 1cee4d60
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB6
-> On 07-09-94 14:17, Frank Waring got back to All
-> Re: Deception
FW> This is all part of the International Zionist Conspiracy, to divide
FW> The Church, and take-over America.
Really? That's astounding! Did you come up with this on your
own, or did John Prewitt help you with your theory?
... If he was a car, all of his idiot lights would be now be flashing.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Re: evaded 3/6 or ignored
Date: 14 Jul 94 10:48:00
--------
EID:2ac6 1cee5600
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB7
-> On 07-10-94 13:15, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: evaded 3/6 or ignored
JP> Keep reading that book, and one gets to the account
JP> of Jesus Christ that the world does not heed.
DC> Like him whipping people
DC> in an aborted attempt to take over the temple?
JP>
JP> You demonstrate both a lack of regard for the record of the event
JP> and hypocritical judgment.
Your opinion of the events noted.
JP> Your characterization of the event as an "aborted attempt"
JP> is merely a display of your sheer imagination.
In light of the fact that wanna-be Messiah's had been attempting
that for some time, it is quite within the pattern of the
course of events.
JP> You and your crowd often rightly note the hypocrisy
My "crowd"? Which "crowd" would that happen to be?
JP> YET you fault Jesus for emphatically demonstrating
JP> His disapproval of religion being perverted to make money.
Didn't he also say, "Render to Caesar"?
JP> (as well as fulfillment of prophecy:
Oh, goody, another UFO!
JP> "Behold, I am going to send My messenger,
JP> and he will clear the way before Me.
That prophecy is made to fit your Jess. Try looking at
the other Messiahs and their attempts at revolution.
JP> Jesus's taking of the Temple was not due to overwhelming military
JP> style power.
'Course not. He expected the people to unite behind him,
thus fulfilling the prophecy.
JP> changers, was because both the crowd and the money changers knew
JP> that He was just plain right.
However, the crowd did not back him in he Messianic quest, thus
the abortive attempt.
JP> to rape or pillage. Anyone with a reading ability over the
JP> level of a third grader can deduce this from Paul's writing and
JP> NT record.
Takes a bit more than your level of reading to see the
contradictions and lies presented in the Pauline gospels.
DC> would have been more in order than those teachings of Saul.
JP> In light of your present rejection of Jesus,
Never met the guy. He died nearly 2000 YA, having left no
written records of his own.
DC> The promise of a better "afterlife"
DC> was quite useful in keeping the populace in check.
JP> Rather, the denial of a better "afterlife"
JP> keeps people in bondage to the fear of death which is the
JP> ultimate weapon and persuader of the rulers of this world
As you almost note, it is a 2-edged sword. You fear death more
than you fear life. Get used to it. You will be worm food
someday.
JP> to see the ultimate spiritual bankruptcy of the Roman Empire
JP> with all its immorality blessing demonic "gods"
JP> including caesar worship.
The promised "afterlife" was taken over by the Romans as it
proved to be a far better way of controlling the unruly masses
that they had to contain.
DC> You mistake "incentive" for "threat".
JP> The carrot of "incentive" and the stick of "threat".
Stick both of them up your ass, as good things will never hurt you.
... Go hence, and sin more creatively next time.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Daniel Hendry
Sub: Re: Evolution
Date: 14 Jul 94 10:59:00
--------
EID:be03 1cee5760
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB8
-> On 07-10-94 16:05, Daniel Hendry got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: Evolution
DC> So, Daniel, tell us what happens to someone who does not
DC> believe in the same faith as you? Where do they go?
DC>
DC> Inquiring agnostics need to know! That, and pagans, and
DC> atheists, and wiccans.......
DH> As for what you have said...you have worded the question so that
DH> it is quite loaded haven't you?
It's not healthy to come to a gun fight armed with
a letter opener.
DH> But...for those who do not believe and accept the sacrifice of
DH> Christ to "pay for" their "sin" or "wrong".....they choose (by way
of
DH> choosing else) one of the tho****usands of roads laid out by "the
DH> enemy" (what the hell do you call Satan without sounding like a
DH> crackpot?)
I'm not sure, but it looks like you are trying. Have any evidence
that your god Satan happens to exist?
DH> may look to run in different directions. They all circle back.
DH> To condemnation...so in a se...we choose forgiveness or
So, when I go to hell, I get to meet Ghandi. Lot's better
than going to heaven and meeting that Christian, Hitler.
DH> condemenation. not God.....we choose.
DH> You asked!:]
Sure did.... Should you happen to run into Adolph, tell him
I think he's still an asshole. Thanks!
... What can be said about him that hasn't been said about hemorrhoids?
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Existance & make-believe
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:12:00
--------
EID:6b83 1cee5980
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BB9
-> On 07-10-94 16:29, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Existance & make-believe
DR> 1. The false trilemma of "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic."
dc> Homo, Hetero, or Hedonist?
FR> Ideologue, Indian, or Idiot?
DC> Nebish, Nutcase, or Notoriety.
DC> Obtuse, Obscene, or Oblique!
FR> (I put them in rough alphabetical order.)
Thanks! It's a bit difficult keeping it rolling that way,
as everyone seems to be avoiding "K" and "Q" Wonder if
anyone has anything yet for "Z" or "X"?
Hell....
Zealot, Zygote, or Zargon?
... "This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!"
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Re: Fancy words
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:16:00
--------
EID:9dfb 1cee5a00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBA
-> On 07-09-94 19:49, Edward Hopkins got back to Hector Plasmic
-> Re: Re: Fancy words
HP> EH>we have souls.
HP>
HP> Well, now, there's a claim. Got any evidence to back it up? Any at
all?
HP> A single scrap?
EH> Can you prove we don't ?
Zounds! Another conspiracy!!! You're hidding the facts from
us, aren't you? Bet you can't back that up with evidence,
can you.
... The only sure thing in life is TAXES! You can no longer afford to die!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Fancy words
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:19:00
--------
EID:9dfb 1cee5a60
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBB
-> On 07-10-94 15:10, Edward Hopkins got back to Martin Goldberg
-> Re: Fancy words
EH> How do you know God doesn't exist ?
-> go read your book fo fairy tales while the adults talk about the
-> facts. It'll be a much easier life for you.
EH> I'm old enough to think for myself. You just *believe* that
EH> God is a "fairy tale". What if your wrong ?
Thing is, you are too chicken to look at the facts and
evidence, but take it all on belief. I believe I've got a
promissory note that says you owe me $100,000. Care to pay up?
... He's got a mind like a steel trap...rusted and frozen shut.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Re: Holy SPIRIT?
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:39:00
--------
EID:4aa7 1cee5ce0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBC
-> On 07-10-94 13:23, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: Holy SPIRIT?
JP> Faith in Jesus spread by peaceful persuasion.
DC> Are you referring to the Crusades, the Inquistion, or the Witch
DC> burnings?
JP> Actually I was referring to the initial spread
JP> over the known world.
Gee, there was a chance to stop it, but the prime directive
got in the way.... To bad.
BTW, you will note that it did not spread like the plague over
the world until it was used as a justifiable tenet for the
lovely little programs I outlined above.
DC> Kinda of hard to keep the "brotherly love" of "good
DC> x-tians" separate from their "brotherly hate"..
JP> Not hard at all for those to whom the NT record of Christ
JP> is the standard
JP> of what is and/or is not worthy of the label "Christian".
So, which of the myriad of x-tian religions shall be used
as a touchstone? Care to pick one? Care to see if other
Christians agree with your choice?
... If little else, the brain is an educational toy.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Re: HOLYSMOKE FAQ - HOLYF
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:44:00
--------
EID:0458 1cee5d80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBD
-> On 07-09-94 20:06, Edward Hopkins got back to Preston Simpson
-> Re: Re: HOLYSMOKE FAQ - HOLYF
PS> RC> Ah, then I _WAS_ successful at emulating a religious doctrine.
PS> What makes saying that pepper is blasphemous any more stupid than saying
PS> There is only one true God?
EH> Robert was just making it up to make fun of religion. People
EH> all over the world know that God exists.
Really? Care to back up that claim?
Actually, you are already debunked, as there are more than
just a couple of people in this echo that don't share in
your delusions.
Thanks for playing....
There will be some nice parting GIFs for you. Do take a
look at GOD$LOVE.GIF, in particular.
... Cats: God's way of saying your furniture is too nice.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:49:00
--------
EID:7c5e 1cee5e20
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBE
-> On 07-10-94 13:44, Charlie Ray got back to Scot Bear
-> Re: Re: Homosexuality
SB>Vice-versa I might add. Remember the miracle of the Noodles?
CR> One naive Christian does not make all Christians fools, Scot.
Nor does one man like Adolph make all NAZIs bad people.
... Fundamentalism: Believe in a kind, loving God or we'll kill you.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Re: If it dies its not a
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:02:00
--------
EID:6858 1cee6040
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BBF
-> On 07-10-94 13:59, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: If it dies its not a
-> On 07-02-94 19:26, John Prewett
-> got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Re: If it dies its not a
JP> Then Jesus proved He is more than just a man by rising from the dead.
DC> Is that the reason that there are no contemporary accounts of that
JP> Sure there is. Commonly called the NT.
Yep, no info to back your book, but the book.
JP> Your comment reflects ignorance of human behavior.
Tha people like Saul would lie for their god?
JP> People, mainly Jews, wrote about Jesus starting from when
You are talking of an offshoot of Judaism, known as the
Jerusalem Church.
JP> He started doing noteworthy things in Israel. That is human
JP> nature.
To do noteworthy things, or to have stories built up
around the fact that Paul fell on his head?
JP> or by who the gospels and letters which we now call the NT
JP> were first compiled.
JP> Yea, I know what RC claims. Source considered, duly filed.
Before I file yours, I do a printout of them and take them to
work. Beats the daily comic section, hands down!
JP> Look Dan, even His disciples (especially Thomas)
JP> couldn't believe Jesus arose until they saw and felt Him.
So, did Thomas put his fingers in the holes in Jesus' hands?
I don't believe he did. Got any facts to show that there
were holes in his hands? Just a little?
JP> Course He didn't present Himself to everybody.
DC> Of course not, as he couldn't. He was dead.
JP>
JP> Opinion noted. Then as now, Jesus reveals Himself to
JP> whoever He chooses, whenever He chooses.
Gee, choose me! I've got a Camcorder, and I could document
the event for you.
JP> There is no rational reason to think the claim
JP> of Jesus's resurrection originated with Paul.
No, as that was part of the Jerusalem Church. However, there
is much info that shows that Paul expanded on the idea and
made Jess not the Messiah, but a god.
... Blessed are the pessimists, for they shall have backups!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Re: Jim
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:15:00
--------
EID:34b4 1cee61e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC0
-> On 07-10-94 13:56, Jim Staal got back to Hector Plasmic
-> Re: Re: Jim
HP> The Holy Spook (Casper be its name)
JS> And, as you continue to persist in commiting the unpardonable
JS> (blaspheming the Holy Spirit) I will no longer respond or read
JS> your posts.
Isn't that a bit harsh? How could he know he was guilty of
one of those multitude of sins you have floating around?
As he doesn't have any evidence of the entity you say he
is blaspheming, perhaps you could provide him with some.
That may cure his vile words....
... Beer: You don't buy it, you only rent it...
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Re: Jim
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:17:00
--------
EID:34b4 1cee6220
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC1
-> On 07-11-94 21:37, Jim Staal got back to Preston Simpson
-> Re: Re: Jim
PS> Why should you be so blessed, when so many innocents have already been
PS> slain?
JS> I can understand your logic in this matter, but I believe the
JS> question is: 'innocents' by whose standards? Man and God have
JS> different standards.
They sure do. Your god kills innocents on a much grander
scale, and sentences them all to hell, to boot.
... He's going to be resurrected. There's still money to be made.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: John 3:16 Questions
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:21:00
--------
EID:970f 1cee62a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC2
-> On 07-10-94 14:02, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: John 3:16 Questions
JP> Hey, a flood is no big thing for God.
DC> When in doubt, conjure up another miracle.
JP> You're presently the doubter of God. As I was.
Presently, can you provide evidence that you can ride
a horse better than Saul?
DC> Saves you from having to do any thinking on the subject.
JP>
JP> I have more pertainent subjects to devote thought to.
Such as building Dr Frankenstein's laboratory and having
Al-Gore retrieve JFK's body?
... "Send a tax deduction to Boob, errh, god" : B. Larceny
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: life experience
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:29:00
--------
EID:6b0b 1cee63a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC3
-> On 07-10-94 10:35, John Prewett got back to Ray Talley
-> Re: life experience
JP> Thanks for sharing your (worthless to me) opinions. WBW, John
Thanks for quoting an entire message to add that last little
line of yours.
You idiocy, noted.
Carbon Copies to:
Styx Allum
Sysop
Node Boss
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Message
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:37:00
--------
EID:75b2 1cee64a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC4
-> On 07-09-94 18:50, Edward Hopkins got back to Don Martin
-> Re: Re: Message
Oh, flatuous keeper of the quotes, here's one for you!
EH> But no one has proved that the Bible is *not* God's Word, have
EH> they ? That's what I mean when I say that faith is more
EH> powerful than logic.
I wonder if it can leap tall buildings in a single bound, too....
...Hey! I didn't realize that until _after_ my frontal lobotomy!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Re: Message
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:38:00
--------
EID:acb1 1cee64c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC5
-> On 07-09-94 19:04, Edward Hopkins got back to Preston Simpson
-> Re: Re: Message
PS> I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has
PS> in the past.
EH> Then why not have faith in God too ?
I didn't like the original. Why waste money on the sequel?
... You are a man without limits...your stupidity knows no bounds.
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Message
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:40:00
--------
EID:acb1 1cee6500
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC6
-> On 07-09-94 19:45, Edward Hopkins got back to C. J. Henshaw
-> Re: Message
CJH> Faith told me to kill you because you're a threat to humanity.
EH> You are not being reasonable.
How do you know his faith is not as strong as yours? Care
to try logic, instead of faith?
(Hey, is that someone knocking on your door? It may be CJ...)
... "Honest to God, Big Guy, I thought turkeys could fly..." Herb Tarlick
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Names of Geologists
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:31:00
--------
EID:156d 1cee73e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC7
-> On 07-10-94 20:52, Shelby Sherman got back to Rick Gordon
-> Re: Names of Geologists
SS> I am still waiting for the names of those geologists who found
SS> evidence of Noah's flood.
Shelby, they should readily be available. I heard that the
emminent David Fasold lead the expedition to the center
of the earth. The paper was written by Von Dannekin, based
on his accurate photography of the journey.
I think they changed the title to _Cisterns of the Gods_. The
hardcover edition is called _Layers of the Clods_. You
really ark to read it. Naoh on my account, but because they
go in pairs. The septuagent version will be out in an octave,
written on tablets made of flat earth, b minor.
No need to thank me, as I'm sure that was the last thing
to cross your mind.
... The pun is mightier than the sword!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: PROPHECY!!!
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:21:00
--------
EID:04d4 1cee6aa0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC8
-> On 07-10-94 22:49, Dan Lafferty got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: PROPHECY!!!
DL>> Witness: I would assume Christ with the Father being the oficiator.
DC> Strange.... Isn't the the Christ a term to describe the Messiah,
DL> The Bible makes no statement on what was or was not taught to Adam and
Explains why they dind't understand not to eat from the proper
tree, doesn't it?
DL> Eve. On the other hand the Pearl of Great Price testifies that Adam
DL> was taught that Christ would come.
Where is that implied in the original tale?
DC>>> If so, who was the Rabbi?
DL>>> God.
DC> See note on Jewishness above. Rabbinical Judaism does not come
DL> Who said anything about Rabbinical Judaism? YOU! You said "Rabbi".
You answered the question and said "god".
> Many profess to support science while at the
DL> same time demanding evidence that they believe could not exist. No
DL> scientist looks for proof that they believe could not exist, nor do
DL> they demand the same of others.
Provide evidence that a theory is wrong. Show that you have a
theory that better describes the facts. Provide the evidence that
supports your claim.
... You have to commited the ultimate blasphemy and purchased Windows!
MB
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: rice's babble
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:37:00
--------
EID:c131 1cee6ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BC9
-> On 07-09-94 11:30, Charlie Ray got back to Matt Giwer
-> Re: rice's babble
CR> bone, doesn't need to eat for sustenance. Jesus appeared out of
CR> nowhere, indicating that He had access to another dimension.
Been watching a bit too much Star Trek lately, Charlie? I
suggest you take a break in 10-Forward for a while......
... Ignorance is free but it exacts an enormous price
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: salvation
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:38:00
--------
EID:696a 1cee6cc0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCA
-> On 07-09-94 21:34, Edward Hopkins got back to David Rice
-> Re: salvation
DR> Have any evidence it exists?
EH> What more do you need than faith ?
The lack of a cranial activity to allow faith to rule your life?
... Cap'n! The twit shields canna take much more o' this!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: scenario
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:42:00
--------
EID:2220 1cee6d40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCB
-> On 07-11-94 00:17, Michael Hardy got back to Marilyn Burge
-> Re: scenario
-> resurrections, and the like). Apparently their ploy
-> worked better than they could've dreamed of.
->
MH> This scenario crumbles under the weight of even the most
MH> superficial reading of the gospels. Although they do present Jesus as
MH> having the power to heal, and command the elements, only in the Gospel
MH> o John is he really presented as the sort of Graeco/Roman/Persian god
MH> you suggest. And even in John the portrayal is mitigated by humanizing
MH> elements.
Well, then, Michael, why do the gospels differ? Why not one
gospel, instead of 4? There must be something that explains
the differences between them....
And: I'll give you a clue.
Use what's between your ears and show us that their not
just their to hold up your rose colored sunglasses.
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: Re: Science illiteracy te
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:48:00
--------
EID:53ca 1cee6e00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCC
-> On 07-10-94 18:24, Quentin Fai got back to C. J. Henshaw
-> Re: Re: Science illiteracy te
CJ> State the EXACT name of the nearest and second nearest stars.
QF> Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri
Well, my son, you did well to illumatate us on your scientific
expertise. Either this evening, or tomorrow morning, I'll put
the light on and check your results.
'Till then, let me get back to my Sun Workstation and see if I
can tabulate your score.
... +Origin: SPIROCHETE Network: Infecting humanity for Jeezus!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Brian Kolacy
Sub: Science illiteracy test
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:50:00
--------
EID:1345 1cee6e40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCD
-> On 07-10-94 17:03, Brian Kolacy got back to C. J. Henshaw
-> Re: Science illiteracy test
CJ>State the EXACT name of the nearest and second nearest stars.
BK> Alpha Centauri and Beta something
See my message to Quentin on this. It's nearly noon, now, and
the tide is out.
... Old myths are the dried up husks of dead religions.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Song
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:10:00
--------
EID:249c 1cee7140
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCE
-> On 07-10-94 20:47, Shelby Sherman got back to Jack O'neill
-> Re: Song
SS> MK 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels
SS> in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Seems like the son hasn't quite got the hang of his dad's
old tricks...
... +Origin: Pharmacolgy Network: Pop a Pope for Jeezus!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: teacher lets us learn
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:14:00
--------
EID:4cf5 1cee71c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BCF
-> On 07-10-94 14:23, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: teacher lets us learn
DC> mythos of a dying god, based on his experence of as a believer in
DC> Mytraism.
JP> Isaiah 53. Written well before Paul. As were the gospels.
Don't worry about Isaiah, but do present your evidence that the
gospels were writen before you alter ego fell on _his_ head...
JP> Opinions noted.
Evidence expected.
... "For he *is* the Kwisatz Haderach!" -- Alia Atreides
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: teacher lets us learn
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:18:00
--------
EID:4cf5 1cee7240
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD0
-> On 07-10-94 14:23, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: teacher lets us learn
DC> Messiah is nothing more than "the anointed one",
DC> meaning a secular king of the Jews. All Jewish kings were "christ".
JP> Non sequitur.
Try looking up the meaning of the term.... Until you know
what it means, drop in in the round file.
DC> Sorry, but those facts are in evidence long before Saul made up his
JP> Interesting. Now the OT is your authority.
JP> Seems like just a moment ago you were telling me
JP> the OT was unreliable re: the flood.
It is unrealiable, as is the NT. However, the mythos created in
th NT are based on "predictions" written in the OT. They were
rehashed by Saul to make Jess appear to be a god, not the
basic revolutionary that he was.
... If a tree falls on a mime, does anyone care?
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Rose
Sub: The Bible vs Reality
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:22:00
--------
EID:18eb 1cee72c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD1
-> On 07-11-94 07:51, Steve Rose got back to Marguerite Kendall
-> Re: The Bible vs Reality
MK> Don't have the figures, and if I did, it wouldn't make you happy
MK> anyways.
SR> Maggie...your figure makes us all very happy. Keep churning the
SR> butter.
She already made that. Unfortunately, the process was to
make whipped cream. Unless, of course, you like unsalted
butter on you strawberries?
... The real money is in starting your own religion. --L. Ron Hubbard
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Arthur Biele
Sub: The Collapse of Evol 2/2
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:28:00
--------
EID:6d25 1cee7380
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD2
-> On 07-10-94 23:28, Arthur Biele got back to Matt Giwer
-> Re: The Collapse of Evol 2/2
AB> In your post to me I noted 10 insult's, 7 Browbeats, and 4 ridicule's.
How many messages was that in? If it was less than 10, he
doesn't get the MIP this year.....
(Sorry, Matt, but that's the way the fundy crumbles...)
However, on a re-read of your line, it does appear that Matt
has set a new H_S record! Gondradulations, Matt! Please
supply a repost of your message, with Arthur, here, confirming
the amt of insults, browbeats and riducules, for authentication.
... Guard your rear in hospital..you're in enema territory!
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Prewett
Sub: Re: thermodynamics
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:40:00
--------
EID:c8bb 1cee7500
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD3
-> On 07-10-94 14:26, John Prewett got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: Re: thermodynamics
JP> Matter over time does the opposite of what it took to Create the life
JP> and the universe we now observe.
HP> Bzzzt. There's plenty of ordered energy left in the universe yet.
HP> Take a look at that big hydrogen lamp in the sky, that's some of it.
JP> Non sequitur.
JP> His statement has no bearing on what I stated.
Of course it doesn't, to you at least. After all, it does
nothing more that put another torpedo into your already
damaged hull.
DC> Unless, of course, you provide evidence that the sun doesn't exist.
JP> Nor does yours.
Totaly unsubstantiated opinion, noted. Try saying "IS NOT!"
Do it often enough, even you may believe it. Meanwhile, don't
forget to put on your life jacket.
BTW, do us all a favor and scuttle it on deep waters. It makes
salvage of it hard enough so some other idot does come around
and try to perform the task.
Thanks, and your need of a second opinion is noted. Ask Hector
for his....
... The Heisenberg Church where you may or may not be saved....
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Drew Webber
Sub: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:46:00
--------
EID:dc1e 1cee75c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD4
-> On 07-09-94 15:01, Drew Webber got back to Jerry Randall
-> Re: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
JR> Therefore I submit that you are not GOD.
DW> I don't give a fuck what your opinion is. I asked you to PROVE that
DW> I'm not God. Can you do that?
DW> Rev. Drew "GOD" Webber
I'd normally assert my authority as God Dan of this Echo here,
but I'm interested in how a young godling plays the fish at
the end of his hook. Hope you took the barb off of it, as we
may want to release him and catch him again.
(It's more sporting that way, but as a god, _I_ know that you
knew that.)
... I'm just here for moral support...ignore the gun....
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Larry Sites
Sub: RE: VIRGIN BIRTH MYTH 1
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:51:00
--------
EID:e847 1cee7660
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD5
-> On 07-10-94 08:41, Larry Sites got back to Perry Robinson
-> Re: RE: VIRGIN BIRTH MYTH 1
LS> For a current book, read Hyman McCaby's _Mythmaker, Paul and the
If you don't mind, may I correct you here?
OK! OK! I'll do it anyway.... That's "Maccobby"
LS> The following is a little older work that should be easily verifable:
LS> VIRGIN BIRTHS
BTW, thanks for the additional info!
... G'day, mate...throw another fundy on the barbie!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: We're see.
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:56:00
--------
EID:0cdd 1cee7700
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD6
-> On 07-10-94 18:58, Preston Simpson got back to Steve Lew
-> Re: Re: We're see.
SL> escaped from Sodum and Gamora when the other homos died the dead
SL> they deserved.
PS> want all the homosexuals to die? Would you be willing to kill them
PS> yourself?
Careful, Preston... I do think that's how "good old" Adolph
got his start about making himself "popular" with the Jewish
community.
If you ever get the stomach for it, as it's not easy to
view in retropect, look at any war propoganda, from _any_
of the sides. Dehumanization is the major theme.
... +Origin: Social Theocracy: Removing your Rights for Jaaayyyssuuss.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Drew Webber
Sub: What is God?
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:59:00
--------
EID:3cb8 1cee7760
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD7
-> On 07-09-94 11:05, Drew Webber got back to Scruffy
-> Re: What is God?
Sc> What is God?
DW> Me.
Good response, Grasshopper! Now, about that car I need you
to wax on, wax off....
... ++++++ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a SAVIOR outta my ass!! :-)
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: What's the matter?
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:05:00
--------
EID:c301 1cee78a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD8
-> On 07-09-94 11:41, Charlie Ray got back to Matt Giwer
-> Re: What's the matter?
CR> because we do not understand such appearances does not in fact mean
CR> that they are spontaneously generated. Photons appear to be particles
CR> when measured from one perspective and waves from another.
So, Chuckie, what are they? Waves or particles?
CR> limitations of human knowledge cannot explain this phenomenon.
That's why they are being studied! Every bit of data extends
the amount of available knowledge.
CR> the obvious question is where do these quantum "fluctuations" come
CR> from?
I'm sure you will tell us where they come from.
CR> It simply happens with no cause? Every effect must have a cause, and
CR> the uncaused first cause is that which we call God.
Explain the above annomily of new particles...
CR> origin of the Big Bang and what lies beyond the boundaries of the known
CR> universe?
Oh, you don't have an answer? Well, what does your theory
of god predict it to be?
... "Data, that is quite enough background!"--Piccard
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Wild??
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:12:00
--------
EID:65c1 1cee7980
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BD9
-> On 07-09-94 12:16, Marilyn Burge got back to Martin Goldberg
-> Re: Wild??
MG> multiple the wide variety of genetically distinct animals happened
MG> sicne that time?
MB> V-E-R-Y fast evolution. Of course, I don't believe in evolution,
MB> but that's no problem, cuz I have my faith.
MB> Is my fundy mode still in working order?
Not quite well enough....
Sicne(mg) you implied evolution, you lose. You should have
said, "Gog(mg) recreated the world with new animals after
the fooled.(mg)"
However, you aren't doing to shabby. An occasional reader
would have been quite impressed.
... Denial ain't just a big river in Egypt.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: you do realize
Date: 14 Jul 94 15:25:00
--------
EID:79d4 1cee7b20
MSGID: 1:350/401 86E11BDA
-> On 07-09-94 20:21, Edward Hopkins got back to David Rice
-> Re: you do realize
DR> EH> I will pray for you.
DR>
DR> Okay. And I'll burn a puppy for you. Deal?
EH> That's not funny.
In a way, it's not, however, it appears you caught the
gist of Fredric's point.
EH> am going to pray for them, since a good friend explained
EH> why you might be offended. Sorry.
Thing is, Ed, not only would Fredric be offended by your
remarks, both others in other cultures and religions as
well. Try to remember that this is not a world that revolves
around your local community. For that matter, the center of the
universe is not even the sun, let alone the earth.
Makes a big difference in perspective when you look at the
fact that you are living on a ball of mud at the edge of a
somewhat smallish galaxy in the backwater of a much large
universe.
Want to feel humbled, just look at nature. No need to
invent a god that tells you you are scum. Far better to
use your mind and work your way out of it and reconcile
yourself with your own existance.
Meanwhile I'll see what I can do to stop Fredric from
burning a puppy for you. As the Chinese say, cats make
better BBQ'd ribs, anyways....
... FUND: to give cash AMENTALIST: Without a mind
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From: David Johnston
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: " Concede this??? "
Date: 17 Jul 94 00:58:11
--------
EID:2085 1cf10740
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7881d8c6
-> dj> Here's a thought: what if the starter wasn't sentient?
->
-> <-heh-> That's borrowing from an assumption, though, that there is a
-> 'starter.'
That's OK, I'm perfectly prepared to juggle hypotheticals. However, in
some since something could be considered to be the starter, depending on
how you define your terms, even if it's just the invariable physical
constants of the universe.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Ken Wiens
Sub: Evolution
Date: 17 Jul 94 01:17:11
--------
EID:05e7 1cf10a20
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7881d8c7
-> CR> Which is obviously my point:) If you can't repeat CR>
-> evolution in a laboratory, then strictly speaking it is CR> not
-> pure empiricism, but speculation based on the CR> available data.
You can repeat evolution in the "laboratory". As an example, I cite the
Dachsund, as obscene an example of unnatural selection as you can find
anywhere.
-> KW> The creation explanation has not been discarded.
-> MG> Your ignorance of the history of this part of science is MG>
-> overwhelming. It was discarded by Linneaus more than a century MG>
-> before Darwin as it was unable to explain the facts.
-> My knowledge of the history of science is quite intact. There
-> is much written by scientists today also that is revealing
-> the weaknesses in evolutionary theory, not the least the
-> above citation I have provided from Dr. Lewin. If you wish
Dr Lewin's statement in no way supported Creationism. That he pointed
out that evolutionary theory isn't "finished" and that interpreting
evidence can be tricky does not validate a theory which lacks evidential
support, any more than it validates my own theory that space aliens had
sex with dinosaurs to produce mammals. To examine Genesis as a basis
for theories of biological development requires looking at the world as
it is, and comparing it to what it would be, if Genesis was literally
true in every detail.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: David Johnston
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups
Date: 17 Jul 94 01:45:11
--------
EID:6253 1cf10da0
MSGID: 1:342/14@fidonet.org 7881d8c8
-> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
That's absurd. God allegedly created all the animals, so why would some
of them be inherently corrupt? Apart of course from humanity, which
legitimately qualifies as a special case. In that particular passage,
all the bible was saying, was that these particular species were BAD TO
EAT.
-> You are born black, white or a certain race but you make the
-> choice later in life whether you are going to lust after your
-> same gender. Natural. Tell me how homosexuals reproduce. I mean
-> everything in nature reproduces. rabbits, dogs, cats, humans.
-> They
Not everything. I for example, am not going to reproduce. Neither will
any mules.
-> CJH> Just because I defend the rights of fags doesn't mean I am one.
-> If you do not claim to be Gay I cannot understand you motives...
Lack of imagination. Not everyone who isn't gay hates those who are.
In my case, I'd be prepared to defend gays because although I don't have
that particular peculiarity, I have known abuse for being different in
other ways. Therefore, when gays are subjected to abuse, I remember the
hell of my junior high years, and the gays I have known who have
tolerated and liked me, and feel incensed on their behalf.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Bryan Thorne
Sub: Re: Origin of Life
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:44
--------
EID:b495 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e121
BT>matter of six days. That of course was not what you wanted to talk
BT>about. I think that the idea of life forming on chance is highly
BT>unlikely.
Of course it is. That's why those nasty little things called "natural
laws" are generally used to explain it, instead of "chance" or unevidenced
superfriends.
BT>We know the building blocks of life here on earth and at this
BT>moment scientist are busy mixing the cemical goo together and shocking
BT>it with electricty but are finding that they are having no luck.
Other than proteinoid microspheres.
BT>Everyone has a theroy of how life was formed but yet we can't do it so
BT>you are left with the thought that we indeed don't have a clue on what
BT>it is that we need to make life.
Indeed, not everyone has a theory. The biologists studying the issue
do, but the creationists don't. Why do I say that? Simple. We've been
asking the creationists for a theory of creation for a _long_ time, and
have yet to see it. Lots of words - no theory. Then again, most of
them don't understand what a theory is.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Five days to get to and from the cargo decks?" -- Rimmer
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:45
--------
EID:5f30 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e122
CR>Even if the civil authorities eventually allow homosexual marriages and
CR>even if you provide homosexual churches to endorse such marriages, it
does
CR>not make it right in the eyes of God.
So who gives a flying fuck what God has to say about anything? Hell,
you can't even demonstrate he _exists_ so why should we listen to what
some old book tells us is his word?
CR>We must line up with the Word of God, not the other way around.
I'll be first in line - as soon as you demonstrate he exists.
* SLMR 2.1a * "I'm only sayin' this once: I'm dead!" -- Elvis
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: Re: evidence???
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:47
--------
EID:9e5e 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e123
CR>CL> so is it wrong to allow gays their basic rights becuz bible says
they
CR>CL> are wrong?
CR>What you choose to do in private is your business. When it becomes a
CR>public issue, then it becomes my business as a minister of the Gospel.
Nice avoidance of the question. C'mon, fundy, answer it.
* SLMR 2.1a * "'Pedorasto', the game for all the family."
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Re: Another
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:48
--------
EID:97b4 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e124
DB> Jesus Christ died for you and for all of us.
Correction. Jesus Christ died. Period. Any further suggestion (i.e.
that he died _for_ someone, that he rose from the dead, what have you)
is as yet unevidenced. Until evidence supporting the claims is brought
forth, such claims are _nothing_ more than the product of your desire
to believe. In which case, you may as well say that Martians died
for our sins; it has exactly as much content.
DB> I guess you don't care, but I'm praying for you. I hope you will accept
DB>the
DB>truth, before it's to late.
I love it. "Before it's too late". Too late for what? to be saved
from damnation and torture by your loving and forgiving deity? The
same deity which cannot be demonstrated as anything more than the
product of your desire to believe?
You realize what this means, don't you? Until you can demonstrate that
God exists, anything you say about him is nothing more than wishful
thinking on your part: "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to live forever? And
wouldn't it be nice if all those people I disagree with were burned
and tortured for eternity? Yeah, that'd be nice."
And you folks wonder why we don't consider Christians to be the loving
types they insist on portraying themselves to be.
DB> Inside you is a void. It tugs at you sometimes, on those lonely nights,
DB>after everyone is gone and you're all alone. I know about that void.
I kn
ow
What void? On those lonely nights, the only tugging I feel is a nasty
biological urge to snuggle up close to something soft and cuddly, and
get laid.
* SLMR 2.1a * "I believe that belongs to me." -- Quark
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Doug Brewer
Sub: Re: Another basket weaver
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:48
--------
EID:bf8b 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e125
DB> "Lerner notes that the laws of nature cannot explain the amazing advance
DB>in complexity of living organisms that has taken place on Earth over
the
DB>last 4 billion years. He acknowledges that this advance stands in violatio
n
DB>of the second law of thermodynamics, which says that systems tend to
degrad
e
DB>from higher levels of order, complexity and information to lower levels
of
DB>order, complexity, and information."
DB> BTW, are you a Ph.D. Physicist?
I'm not. However, having a degree in physics is hardly necessary to
point out that someone fucked up. By the same token, you may not be
a programmer, but this wouldn't prevent you from pointing out a logic
flaw in a program I wrote.
The basic error Lerner makes is that the advance in complexity is _not_
in violation of second law. Why? Two reasons. First, even in a closed
system, it is the _overall_ tendency for entropy to increase; there is
no requirement that entropy cannot decrease locally and temporarily.
Second, the Earth is not a closed system. It has an energy input - the
sun. The sun provides the energy necessary to do work - overcome
entropy locally - and in doing so, the sun provides a far greater
overall increase in entropy than any local decrease.
So, overall, the earth and sun, taken together, have an increasing
entropy, even though locally and temporarily, entropy can be reversed.
DB> I simply want to alert you to the fact that there is alot of evidence,
of
DB>a scientific nature, that supports a belief in God. The problem is,
people
DB>like you don't want to read it.
Since you've obviously read the book, how about providing some of that
evidence? That is, can you show any evidence _in support_ of the existence
of God, or only evidence against other explanations?
* SLMR 2.1a * "He's a Smeeeeeeeeeee..." -- Kryten
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From: Kelsey Bjarnason
To: Jim Staal
Sub: four
Date: 18 Jul 94 01:55:49
--------
EID:ff55 1cf20ee0
PID: GVBBS 0.22b Beta
MSGID: 1:153/792 2e29e126
JS> No, Chris. My point is this: neither laws nor coercion can
JS> change the heart bent on evil. Only God can change the heart
of
JS> a man.
Then it's too bad He doesn't seem to exist.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Dawn on the Serengetti..." -- Tom Servo
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From: David Rice
To: Arthur Biele
Sub: Evolution
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:11:10
--------
EID:a6ce 1cf25160
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
AB> Mathematicians consider anything with a probability as low
AB> as 10 to the 50th power to one to have zero chance of ever
AB> occurring.
Which is a lie. Here: let me toss a coin 1000 times.
TTHTTTHHHHTTTHHHTHHHHHHTTHHTHTHTHTHHHTHTHTTTTHHTTTHHTTHHTTT
HTTTTHHTTHHTTTHTHHHTHTTHTTTTHHTHHTHTHTTTTHTTHTHHHHTTHHHTHTH
THHTHTTTTTTTTHTHTTTTHTHHHTHTTHHTTTTHTTHTHTTHHHTHHTHTTTTTHTT
TTTHTHHTTTHHHHHHTHTTTHHHHTTTTHHTHHTTHHHTHTTHHHHHTHHHTTTHTTT
THHTTTHHTHTHHHHTTTTTHTTHTTTTTTHTHHTTHTTHHTTHHTHHTHTHTHTTTHT
HTHHHHHHHTTHHTTHHTTTHHHHHHHHTHHHHHHTHTTHHTHHHTHHHHTTTTTTTHT
HHHTHTTTTTHHHTTHHHTTTTHHHTTTTTHHHTHHHTTTHTHHTTHTTHHTTTHTHTT
HTTTHTTTHHHTHHHTTTHHTTTHTTHTTHTHHHHTTTTTTHHHHHTTHTHHTHHTTHT
THTTHTHTTHTHHHHTHTTHTTHTHTHTTTHTTTTHHHHTTHHTHHHHHHTHTTHHTHH
TTHTHHTTTHTHTHTHHHTHTTTTTTHTTTTHHTTTTHHTTHTHHHHHTHHTHHHTHTT
THTTHTTHHHHTTHTHTHHTHHHTTHTTHTHTTTTHTHTHTHTTHHTTTHTTTHTTTTH
THTHHHTHHTHHHHTTHHTTTTTTHHHTHHTHTTTTTHTTTTTHTHHTTTHHHHHHTHT
TTHHHHTTTHHHTHHTTHTHHTHHTHTHHTHTHTTHTHTTHHTHTHTHTHTHHHHTTTT
THTTHHHTTTTHTHHTTHTTHHTTHHTHHTHTHTHTTTHTHTHHHHTHHHTHTTTHHTT
THHHHHTHHTHHHHHHTHTTHHHHHHTHHHHTTTHTHTHHHHHHHTTTTTTHHTTTHHT
TTTHHTTTTHTHHHTHHHHTHTHHTTTTTTTHTTHHTHHTHTHHTTTTTTHTHHHHTTH
HHTTHHTHHHHTTTTHTTTHTTHHHHTTTHHHTHHHTHHHTHTTHTHTHTHHHHHT
The probability of my thowing the above sequence is much
less than 10e50, and yet I did it. Care to explain how?
-.-
"And you have no proof that the Mutant Cosmic Star
Goat (Braise His Mane!!) didn't eat Yahweh, have
Jesus for dessert, get really bad gas, and now you
worship a smelly methane cloud." -- Quentin Fai
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From: David Rice
To: Dave Oosterman
Sub: Because _Salem's_Lot_ says so!
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:12:12
--------
EID:69aa 1cf25180
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
DO> I'm merely stating that, for myself (and my wife), the
DO> impact of extra-marital sex would be devastating.
Why?
Also: instead of speaking for your spouse, let's ask HER.
Do you make all of her decisions for her?
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Edward Hopkins
Sub: Questions
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:13:18
--------
EID:d583 1cf251a0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
EH> What is Mithras ?
When Saul of Tarsus destroyed Christianity, he replaced it with
the Romanized Zoroastrian religion, and remodled most of the
Jesus myths to conform to Mithraic mythology. Once the "gospels"
were written in Greek, some of the Jesus myths were Helenized.
What we now call "Christianity" is actually Paulianity.
Perhaps you would consider learning how Christianity came into
being. It's a fascinating topic of study.
-.-
"And you have no proof that the Mutant Cosmic Star
Goat (Braise His Mane!!) didn't eat Yahweh, have
Jesus for dessert, get really bad gas, and now you
worship a smelly methane cloud." -- Quentin Fai
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From: David Rice
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Gays, Lesbians, and Chri
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:14:10
--------
EID:1b2f 1cf251c0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
JJ> I've not been active of late here. There have been long
JJ> stretches of time, however, when I was virtually alone in
JJ> defending the gospel in this hell hole.
<*Laughing My Ass Off!!!*> SURELY, Jesse, if the Gospels were
WORTHY of defense, their very existance would be defense enough
and you would not be required.
JJ> I've been reading messages again with more regularity,
JJ> however. I am delighted to see so many of you defending
JJ> the Way.
"Guide us Landru!"
JJ> I am frankly disturbed
No shit! We've been trying to tell you so for over a year.
JJ> , however, by the fights I see over homosexuality.
There is a joke in there somewhere. Marty? Help me out here!
JJ> I can understand why any of you would believe that
JJ> homosexuality is against God's will. Myself, I think what
JJ> Paul was condemning in the passages generally cited was
JJ> creature worship, lustful sex, and promiscuity in general.
JJ> He said nothing about committed monogamous relationships
JJ> between people of the same gender.
Paul said many things that are BLASPHEMOUS to god. I consider
sexuality to be a gift from god, to be honored and cherished
as the gift it is. Abuse of sexuality is evil; joyful
participation in sexuality is divine.
JJ> But certainly, our brother Paul did not single out
JJ> homosexuality. I think if Jesus were to address the question
JJ> directly he might say: "You have heard it said that intimate
JJ> relationships between people of the same gender is sinful.
JJ> But I say to you, whoever engages in sex without love and
JJ> respect in their heart sins against that person and against
JJ> God." Maybe once we heterosexuals have learned how to have
JJ> loving relationships, we can teach others. But as for me,
JJ> I will not condemn someone in a same-sex relationship.
My opinion is that Saul of Tarsus was homosexual.
JJ> You may disagree with me, but tell me, what does this dispute
JJ> have to do with our witnessing for the Gospel? Luke 17:1
JJ> (NRSV) "Jesus said to his disciples, "Occasions for stumbling
JJ> are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come!"
Also my opinion is that the majority of homosexual-denouncers
are in denial of their sexuality---- not that they are
homosexual themselves, but rather they carry neurotic bagage
inflicted upon them by a long history of sexual repression
in our cultures. They tend, in my opinion, to also have no
concept of what love is.
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From: David Rice
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Kingdom of this world?
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:15:00
--------
EID:abbd 1cf251e0
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
with: JOHN MUSSELWHITE
>JM> Jesus wanted the return of the Jewish monarchy, not a
>JM> Roman one.
JJ> I am familiar with and respect your scholarship, John. On
JJ> what do you base the above conclusion?
_Toldoth_Jeshu_ perhaps, among various other writings such as
Nag Hammadi.
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From: David Rice
To: Jim Staal
Sub: Latent Jim
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:16:06
--------
EID:7de6 1cf25200
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
With: Hector Plasmic
>HP> The Holy Spook (Casper be its name)
JS> And, as you continue to persist in commiting the unpardonable
JS> (blaspheming the Holy Spirit)
I butt-fucked the Holy Spirit last night, and it begged me to
do it again and again and again. Jesus was next in line but
Yahweh Jehovah snuck in line ahead of him (see the First
Commandment for the legal precedent).
Your death cult "blasphemied" the Holy Spook when it wrote in
it's paper idol (Bible) that Casper raped a virgin girl and got
her with child. I can think of nothing more evil and
BLASHPHEMOUS that to claim that god condones the debauchery of
innocent girls.
By the way, how does one "blashpmeny" the non-existant?
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From: David Rice
To: Mike Prather
Sub: "Heathens"
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:17:18
--------
EID:d1e5 1cf25220
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
>> "The account of Creation, Calvin believed, was an example of
>> /balbutive/ (baby talk), which accommodated complex and
>> mysterious processes to the mentality of simple people so
>> that everybody could have faith in God. It was not to be
>> taken literally"
>>
>> top of p 289, _A_History_of_God_, Karen Armstrong, (c) 1993
It's an EXCELLENT book! Very expensive, but worth the price.
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From: David Rice
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Creationist Debating
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:18:42
--------
EID:353a 1cf25240
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
PS> BTW: I once had in my possession (can't produce it now, it's
PS> been gone for years) a file that "proved" that the Bible was
PS> the word of God with some highly convoluted numerological
PS> toothrot.
I have a copy. It is also available from any of the Cults 4
Christ BBSs in FidoNet. The authors assigned Kabbalistic
numerology to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and then
proceeded to apply these numbers to various words and phrases
in the Bible. Funny thing is that they INCORRECTLY added one
more letter to the Hebrew alphabet than it actually had, AND
got their numbering system wrong.
_Skeptics_ magazine once did the same thing that the
Fundamentalists did with the Bible--- only using a Schwinn
bicycle. They found that purely random measurements of the
bike corrolated to Biblical dates, ages, numbers, etc., and
concluded that the Schwinn ten-speed bicycle was a
reproduction, by god, of the Bible.
It was a fuckin' hoot!
The FACT is, when one looks for magical corrolations, they
WILL find some because anything that has thousands of possible
measurements will yield results. Out of the hundreds of
thousands of possible Bible verses, one WILL find magical
corospondences. Same with measuring a bicycle.
As a P.S., I wrote to the authors of the Biblical "proof"
and told them they erred in the Hebrew alphabet and in
assigning values to the letters. They never wrote back,
though I sned my message a half-dozen times.
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From: David Rice
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: BIBLICAL ERRANCY
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:19:16
--------
EID:989e 1cf25260
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
with: Nathan Dutton and Kevin Lamonte
>ND> If you look in Jermiah 13:10-11 you will see that God[sic]
>ND> had a just reason for saying such a statement. God[sic] hates
>ND> evil
Ah, a god that hates. More evidence that Christianity is the
very definition of BLASPHEMY.
>ND> and rebellion against him and all Christians understand
>ND> that a life full of denying the Lord will only lead to
>ND> eternal punishment. lets look at Jer 13:10-11
What Nathan fails, to my utter ammusement, to understand is
that god didn't have anything to do with the words in Jermiah.
But then, neither did Jermiah.
PS> Ah. So your God[sic] does indeed have a reason for slaying
PS> the innocent, ordering the Israelites to keep little girls
PS> as slaves while slaughtering all the rest, and generally
PS> behaving like a damned tyrant. Tell me, what does it feel
PS> like to grovel beneath the boot of such a beast? Do you
PS> derive any pleasure from it? Please, share your masochistic
PS> feelings with me. It would make for an interesting
PS> bachelor's thesis.
For an excellent examination on why Christians worship their
god of death, hate, tyrany, and torture, read Robert Sheaffer's
book _Resentment_Against_Achievement_ 1998. One of the reasons
why the death cult is so popular is because it claims that all
of those who are happy and fulfilled in life will be tortured,
while the miserable sinners will be rewarded. Christianity's
foundation is ENVY against those who are "better" than they
are: it is RESENTMENT against the "haves" by the "have nots."
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Hummmmm
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:20:30
--------
EID:1ecc 1cf25280
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
SL> I was just wondering as to why the people in _Holysmoke_,
SL> that do Not believe that there is a God, know so much about
SL> the bible and God? Shoot, some of you know more than a few
SL> of my friends that are church goers
[First, a note: the Bible has NOTHING to do with God!]
The answer to your question is rather simple. People who lack
belief in gods are often fascinated by the thought processes
of those that do. I would be just as interested in examining
someone who professed a belief in Santa Claus if said someone
was an adult who went around insisting that others belive
the same. One way to understand Bible-worshipers is to read
the Bible. Knowing that the Bible is evil, self-contradictory,
and rife with errors offers one key to the thought processed
of those who worship it: they litterally CANNOT SEE the Bible
for what it truely is.
I find the study of gods-believers to be fascinating, just as
others study UFO abductees, psi believers, levitation nuts, etc.
The more someone knows about the Bible, the less one believes
it.
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: MIKE PRATHER
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 21:14:10
--------
EID:539d 1cf1a9c0
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d0
-=> Quoting MIKE PRATHER to NATHAN DUTTON <=-
ND> The point is that the person is saying that Gods power comes
> from each individual. For instance each person is God for
> themselves. So I said that since they are God and God can
> do anything. I asked him to make a corevette appear in my yard
> tomorrow morning.Preferably RED. Now since I serve the real
> God I know that asking that would be a selfish ambition, God
> would most likely not honor it, not to say God could not
> do it.
MP> Why would you say that God could honor it, but probably wouldn't?
MP> What about something that's not so selfish? Like, "God, please tell
me
MP> the next 25 rolls of these two dice"? What's the reason for not making
MP> simple requests for proof from your omnipotent God?
The reason I say that God probably wouldn't honor a selfish
request of like having a corevette appear in your yard is because
of the nature of the request. If you ask because you really
feel you need one who knows God may honor it. I am not saying God
would never make it happen. Our God loves us and we need to make
known to him our wants and desires and as long as they are not
contrary to what God's Word says. There is nothing wrong with
asking God for something but just realize if it does not occur
it most likely because of the selfishness of the request or
something God would prefer you not to have, do ect..... My God
accepts all request but He determines out of his own will whether
the request will be honored. I have prayed what you may call
some pretty selfish request in my life and God has answered them,
but in return many he has not answered. The more mature Christian
would tell you that prayer needs to always be a part of life in
evererything we do. God does not want for us to see him as a big
Santa Claus up in heaven praying continually for ourselves to
recieve presenents. He wants us to pray for the Lost who are not
Christians, Gods will, for your pastor, for your family, for friends,
ect, healing in our bodies, ect.... No I don't think it is wrong to
pray for material things but we must understand that is not all
what God wants us to pray for.
In your question refering to knowing the next 25 rolls on the
dice I would say that God would not honor that. God is against
gambling...... or the casting of lots....
HE LIVES
... "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it"
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: MIKE PRATHER
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 21:50:57
--------
EID:539d 1cf1ae40
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d1
ND> I have never seen my God harm me or anyone.
MP> That's because your God does not exist. However the excess worship
of
MP> your God can be very harmful.
Never has harmed any I have seen, in fact just the opposite has
happened their life has became more meaninful, finacially stable,
loving, kind, and the list goes on...
> Tell me one thing
> harmfull about serving God? NONE That is just one of many differences
MP> There are definite problems with worshipping your phoney God. It can
So you are telling me millions of people who have their lives
touched by God are all just looney. They are believing in a phoney
God huh? Don't think so. He Lives face it....
MP> cause you to look at the world in terms of black and white instead of
MP> trying to discover the heart of a particular issue. This causes a
MP> decrease in reasoning power, leading you to make poor decisions in
MP> your life. It can lead you to waste your money, thinking that God will
MP> somehow return your investment. It can lead you to make poor career
MP> choices, mate choices, etc, if you depend on "prayer" as your
MP> primary guiding factor. God can act as a drug, and can be as
MP> addictive as any drug when your belief is extreme. There are treatment
MP> programs available, by the way.
Not believing in God leaves, People with out Hope, People living
for a lost cause, People unable to solve thier own problems, with
out guidance, with out love, without healing, without heaven, without
the truth. You are making some pretty big statements telling me
and all other christians have a loss of reasoning power. I tell you
the very reasoning power you have now wich is evidently seared by
sin was given to you by God. I have never wasted a dime giving to
God. I give him a tenth of my salary and that is my business. God
can use the tenth better than the Alcohol, cigarettes, or lottery
tickets most others spend their tenth or more on that comes back
to them in no way or form. It is my business what I spend my money
on. I do pray and I can depend upon my God who I pray to. I do
no depend upon myself but God who answers my prayers. Neve Has
God led me to make a bad choice. The choices that I have made bad
were those choices I didn't present to God. Those choices where
I decided to do what I wanted instead of what Gods word wanted me
to do were those that turned out bad. You may see God as an
addiction but I assure you he is not but a real God who wants us
to be dedicated to him and rightfully so. I know your motives for
rejecting God or if you ever followed him but I do know He loves
you and is knocking on your hearts door. Won't you let him in?
HE LIVES
... "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near" Matthew 4:17
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Drew Webber
Sub: Re: Song
Date: 17 Jul 94 21:52:44
--------
EID:5a42 1cf1ae80
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d2
-=> Quoting Drew Webber to Nathan Dutton <=-
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Dan Ceppa <=-
ND> JESUS LIVES THAT IS WHO!!!!!!!
DW>
DW> THEN YOU BETTER DIG HIS CRUSTY OLD ASS UP THEN!!!!!!!!!!
Why do you have such a hatred for God? You know He is calling your
name. He who has a ear let him hear..
HE LIVES
... "Who can say,"I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:16:01
--------
EID:6d09 1cf1b200
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d3
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Nathan Dutton <=-
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Simon Ewins <=-
SE> Jesus was the first person to rise from the dead.
SE> - Acts 26:23
SE> - Revelation 1:5
SE> Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead.
SE> - 2 Kings 4:32-35
SE> - Matthew 9:18-25
SE> - Matthew 11:5
SE> - Matthew 27:52
SE> - Luke 7:12-15
SE> - John 11:44
ND> Jesus was the first to rise himself from the dead, all other
ND> occurances happened from Gods power
PS> SO? The fact remains that the Bible *still* contradicts itself when
it
PS> says that Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Whether God was
PS> the one doing the raising of the dead or the dead did it under their
PS> own power is irrelevant; the Bible still contradicts itself.
You don't understand anything about the Bible do you?
Tell me did you look all these so called contradictions up
yourself from your exhaustive research of the Bible or did
you just write a bunch of garbage you read out of some book?
The fact still remains it was not a contradiction for those
who correctly interpret the Bible
SE> While we are looking into this, perhaps you can answer a couple of
SE> questions for me...
SE> 1) Why do none of Paul, Matthew, Mark or Luke mention the raising of
SE> Lazarus from the dead? You think they didn't notice, or maybe John
SE> just made the story up?
ND> I don't think John made it up. The answer of why this was done
ND> this way is probably God wanted that way.....
PS>
PS> Typical fundy answer for something that they can't explain.
Typical sceptic answer when they deny the power of God!
SE> 2) Why does Paul only quote Jesus twice? After all, he is basing his
SE> entire theology on the life, works and death of Jesus, but he
SE> can't be bothered to quote the man.
ND> Paul was taught by Jesus himself after his conversion. Jesus
ND> himself reavealed himself even in Saul who became paul's
ND> conversion. Jesus revealing himself to Paul in all his Glory as a
ND> light shone from heaven.
PS> Do we have evidence of this? Actual, physical evidence? And you must
PS> admit that Christianity did not really take off as an evangelical
PS> religion until after Paul finished monkeying with it.
Well get in your time machine and go back and see for yourself.
Well since those don't exist read the Bible. It is in the
Book of acts. So what your saying is just becuase I do not have
any physical evidence you were born you are not really there
writing back and forth to me. Get real..... Christianity
grew because of the Power of the Holy Spirit within men. Yes
Paul was a very zealous man and educated and of course he
helped the spread the Gospel of Christ he did not change anything
of you are assuming. By the way can you prove He monkeyed with
Christianity?
HE LIVES
... Psalm 14:1"The fool says in his heart,"There is no God."
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:57:53
--------
EID:2346 1cf1b720
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d4
ND> God created the man not the immoral choice to become gay...
ND> God has also determined some animals as unclean you know......
ND> Homosexuality is a Choice. A immoral one......
PS> Your opinion is noted as being worthless. It is not supported by the
The same can be said about yours.
PS> No you can't. Studies have proven that it's not a choice.
List the facts then. They will not superced the bible though
ND> same gender. Natural. Tell me how homosexuals reproduce. I mean
ND> everything in nature reproduces. rabbits, dogs, cats, humans.
ND> They all use a male and female. If Adam and Eve were born what
PS> Wrong again, Nature Boy. Amoebae and similar single-celled life forms
PS> reproduce asexually, without any of that bother that we refer to as
PS> gender.
Ok your right about that but ones who have gender do
use a male and female. Are you trying to tell me
a homosexual is like an amoebae?
ND> you say a quote quote Gay. you would never have been around.
ND> With your mentality, I guess it is safe to be excited the human
ND> race has made it this far...
PS> You are, of course, ask to provide any real evidence you have that
PS> Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the human race.
Now your getting into a whole other issue. Lets just stick
to homosexuals for now.
CJH> Jesus Christ as depicted in the christian bible didn't exist. You
are
CJH> a SAULian, not a CHRISTian.
CJH> You are very arrogant to think that the bible has any meaning to
CJH> unbelevers.
ND> IF so? Why are you getting so upset. I believe it is none other
ND> than God is piercing you at the core of your corrupted
ND> beliefs...
PS> You may believe what you like. No one is going to stop you. If you
PS> choose to offend others with what you think, or try to force it on
PS> anyone else, you'd better brace yourself for some serious verbal
PS> beatings.
Not forcing you to believe anything or even trying to. I am just
standing up for the gospel of Jesus Christ. What are you
standing up for.
PS> BTW- as a psychology major, I find your persistant reliance upon an
PS> invisible entity quite entertaining, rather like a small child's
PS> imaginary friend.
I find your hate for God quite disturbing. It hurts to know you
may end up in Hell one day. I know you think that is ridiculous,
but Jesus is real. Take some time and ask him to help you believe
if he is really real. After all what is asking God going to hurt.
Just do it alone sometime when no one is around. Just openly ask
him to reveal himself to you somehow. You know the Bible says in
Revelation Chapter 3:20 with Jesus speaking
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him,
and he with me"
Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart. Won't you let him
in?
PS> Probably because you have difficulty with the concept of "empathy,"
PS> or, to put it more simply, "putting yourself in another man's shoes."
PS> It's a basic trait common to the more mature amongst humanity.
I try my best to understand how other feel more than you know.
PS> And you seem disappointed that Henshaw isn't gay. Why? Were you
PS> planning to attack that point and attempt to discredit him? Speaking
PS> strictly as a human being, you're ashaming me. I find it appalling that
PS> people can act with such buried hatreds, such overwhelming fury at
PS> something that has nothing to do with them.
The question about the Henshaw being gay was only from the
fact that I wanted to find out who I was speaking with nothing
more.
HE LIVES
... "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near" Matthew 4:17
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:00:20
--------
EID:c5a8 1cf1b800
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d5
PS> I'm not entirely sure that any of us skeptical types really cares if
PS> Jesus is in your heart. So long as you make unevidenced claims, you
can
PS> expect to take a little flak for them. Whether your invisible friend
is
PS> in your heart is your own business, as long as you don't offend people
PS> with your beliefs, just as the schizophrenic's little voices are his
PS> business so long as he doesn't offend others.
I have never seen you shovel out any evidence for your opinions.
HE LIVES
... Enter through the narrow gate that leads to life
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Nathan Dutton
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: BIBLICAL INERRANCY 1/2
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:07:00
--------
EID:873c 1cf1b8e0
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d6
ND> When you claim this is a contradiction you or whoever gave you
ND> this information must not know anything about who God is. God is
ND> compassionate as well as just, loving, kind, gentle, and the list
ND> goes on. To look at psalms 145:9 and compare it as a
ND> contradiction to Jer 13:14 is misunderstanding the text. If you
ND> look in Jermiah 13:10-11 you will see that God had a just reason
ND> for saying such a statement. God hates evil and rebellion against
PS> Ah. So your God does indeed have a reason for slaying the innocent,
PS> ordering the Israelites to keep little girls as slaves while
PS> slaughtering all the rest, and generally behaving like a damned tyrant.
These were not innocent people, read it again. You may see them
as innocent. From what I can tell from you, all who reject the
Bible are innocent and all who believe are guilty. That seems
to sum up your attitude.
HE LIVES
PS> ... Myth-conceptions are the major cause of wars.
PS> -!- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
PS> ! Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
PS> (1:123/319)
... "Who can say,"I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:10:15
--------
EID:d38d 1cf1b940
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d7
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Nathan Dutton <=-
ND>Remember we need to count the supernatural in all of this as well.
HP> Would you happen to have any evidence that a "supernatural" exists to
HP> be "counted?" If not, why should we "count" it?
Supernatural have evidence. I don't think so.
HE LIVES
... PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Atheists Crap
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:12:19
--------
EID:5dff 1cf1b980
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d8
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Nathan Dutton <=-
ND> I know Jesus is in my heart.
HP> Doesn't that make your circulation sluggish? Could it be causing an
HP> insufficient bloodflow to your brain, perhaps?
You know what is meant by the statement. Jesus is knocking on your
Hearts door..
HE LIVES
... "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: One size fits all
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:17:59
--------
EID:b992 1cf1ba20
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01d9
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Nathan Dutton <=-
-=> Nathan Dutton said to Simon Ewins <=-
ND> I don't think John made it up. The answer of why this was done
ND> this way is probably God wanted that way.....
DM> Once you have this sort of explanation, you need look no
DM> further. Nor think any further, for that matter.
When a Father tells the son to take out the trash, He means
it. He does not ask the son to think about it but to do it.
The same is with our father in heaven. There are somethings
he doesn't ask us to think about because he knows our minds
cannot explain them or even prove them. Our Father in heaven
wants us to use our brains but he also wants us to be obedient
to him.
HE LIVES
... Come Lord Jesus Take Me Home
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Nathan Dutton
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:37:29
--------
EID:de56 1cf1bca0
MSGID: 1:365/200.0 2e2a01da
DM> You are born with the capacity to learn to read. Perhaps you
DM> have fulfilled that capacity; if so, look into the latest research
DM> on genetic and in utero determinants of homosexuality, along with
DM> the findings on physical differences in the brain structure of
DM> homosexuals as compared to heterosexuals. Only the ignorant (and the
DM> sexually ambivalent) insist that sexual desire is a matter of
DM> choice.
It would be interesting to read and if I get the chance I am sure
I will, but the research in my eyes does not discredit the word
of God. The Fact will still be it is wrong in the eyes of God and
sinful behavior
CJH> Learn some grammar, idiot.
ND> Now your showing who the real hate group is!!!
DM> Yeah, he so hates people that he wishes them capable of
DM> communicating intelligently. The word you seek is "you're".
Thanks for the correction.
HE LIVES
... "Who can say,"I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: myth
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:40:08
--------
EID:f78d 1cf16500
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 de35a9b0
REPLY: 1:3625/470 86E1364B
On (16 Jul 94) Michael Hardy wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MH> -> So I take it you don't regard things like resurrections,
MH> -> virgin births, raising people from the dead, and healing
MH> -> people of diseases that were at the time incurable as
MH> -> being mythologizing? Well, I do.
MH> Well, you would. And you answer suggests that you didn't
MH> bother to read my message very closely. I'll try it again. It
MH> was in response to your statement:
MH> -> MH> -> 4. The Gospels were written by men who hadn't se
MH> -> MH> -> the events they wrote about, and decided to make
MH> -> MH> -> the principal character of the Gospels bigger than
MH> -> MH> -> life i an attempt to make him at least equal to the
MH> -> MH> -> gods tha currently were accepted as part of the
MH> -> MH> -> Roman and Gree pantheons. Given that the Romans and
MH> -> MH> -> Greeks (and tho who had been acculturated by the
MH> -> MH> -> R&G's were the main audience for what they wrote,
MH> -> MH> -> they were simply playin to their audience by
MH> -> MH> -> including much of the same old
MH> -> H> -> devices that had been used for millennia to "sell"
MH> -> H> -> the
MH> -> MH> -> pantheon to the masses heretofore (i.e., virgin
MH> -> MH> -> birth resurrections, and the like). Apparently
MH> -> MH> -> their ploy worked better than they could've dreamed
MH> -> MH> -> of.
MH> Jesus, as portrayed in the gospels, is very human, with human
MH> needs. He eats, sleeps, talks with people, acts like one of
MH> them, a human being trying to offer some insight. The virgin
MH> birth, resurrection, healings and the like may or may not be
MH> invented. But Jesus is not portrayed like a Greek or Roman
MH> god like Apollo or Zeus or Hercules.
Yes, he is. The virgin birth is a direct knockoff of the Osiris
tale. The resurrection is a direct knockoff of the Mithras tale,
as is the virgin birth (the woods were full of Greek, Roman, and
Egyptian gods who were the product of virgin births). Healings
among the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian pantheon were a dime a dozen,
also.
My thesis is that these kinds of strictly mythological happenings
were added to the Jesus tale to make the claim that he was a god
more believable to those who saw the gods as supernatural. These
are EXACTLY the kinds of reported events that accomplished that
goal. Jesus never claimed to be God personified; it was his
followers and the Gospellers who made this claim. Jesus never
claimed to be the Son of God, but rather specifically said He
was the Son of Man (as we all are, unless we claim that one of
our parents was not a human being). All those greater-than-life
claims regarding Jesus were specifically NOT made by Him, but
by those who were selling the story of His life and trying to
establish a new religion among those who saw such characteristics
as being necessary to a god.
... Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's?
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Hummmmm
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:48:27
--------
EID:78c1 1cf16600
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d122f880
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 2e223172
On (12 Jul 94) Steve Lew wrote to All...
SL> I was just wondering as to why the people in _Holysmoke_,
SL> that do Not believe that there is a God, know so much about
SL> the bible and God? Shoot, some of you know more than a few of
SL> my friends that are church goers
Many of us have studied the document extensively. Many of us have
also studied the roots of religion itself extensively. We make a
lie of the stereotype that claims that nonbelievers would be
believers, if only they studied religion and god and found out
what it was REALLY about. Many of us have done exactly that; that
is why we don't believe it.
I have a lapel button that I wear to Humanist conventions that
says "Do you understand the Bible? Then why do you believe it?"
That pretty well sums it up.
... Would it not be better to grow up rather than born again?
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Ho!
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:14:22
--------
EID:3eef 1cf169c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 02931255
REPLY: 1:250/820.666 2e20a84b
C.J., in the second paragraph of autopost #1, you have my name
spelled incorrectly. The I and Y are reversed. I'm flattered to be
at the top of the HS FAQ FILE, but would appreciate you spelling
my name correctly. Thank you.
And thank you for maintaining those files. They're neat!
... Can we pay $5 million to *make* God take Oral Roberts home?
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Biblical Transmission: a three speed stuck in low gear
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:35:08
--------
EID:4ad3 1cf16c60
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 451740dc
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e213409
On (11 Jul 94) Shelby Sherman wrote to Fredric Rice...
SS> 06 Jul 94 17:24, Fredric Rice wrote to Mark Fox:
SS>
SS>
SS> FR> Yes, you're certainly an Ass of God. Did you know that 66% of
SS> FR> your clergy are homosexuals? Do you want the evidence to check
SS> FR> for yourself?
SS>
SS> Since Mark Fox has rabbited, I'd be interested in the source of that
SS> stat.
Frederic is misremembering something that Austin Miles wrote in
"Don't Call me Brother." The actual quote is more along the line
of him saying that at one point during his ministry he got curious
about the number of Assemblies of God preachers who were making
inappropriate passes at parishioners, so he started keeping notes
on the issue. He discovered that the practice was not only
rampant, but that something like two-thirds of those who made
passes were married.
I just finished reading the book a couple of weeks ago; I suspect
Frederic read it many moons ago, and has simply forgotten the
details surrounding the statement Austin Miles made.
... 28A - The hex of the beast
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Lee Woofenden
Sub: evidence
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:06:45
--------
EID:1ef7 1cf170c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 f1297301
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 2e25b559
On (14 Jul 94) Lee Woofenden wrote to Marilyn Burge...
LW> Here's what Marilyn Burge said to Michael Hardy about evidence:
LW>
LW> MB> The earliest Christians rewrote the Hebrew scriptures in such a
LW> MB> way as to make them appear to be a precursor for Jesus of
LW> Nazareth
LW> MB> as the Messiah.
LW>
LW> Where does this idea come from? The Hebrew scriptures were
LW> preserved by the Jews of the period, not the Christians. In later
LW> centuries, it was the Jewish Masoretes that preserved the Hebrew
LW> scriptures, not the Christians. The Biblical texts of the Dead Sea
LW> Scrolls, which date from c 250 BC to 70 AD, show only minor
LW> variations from the texts we have today. Where are the examples of
LW> the early Christian "rewritten scriptures" today?
The rewritten scriptures are called the "Old Testament." They did a
lot more than simply translate the Hebrew into another language; they
also changed words in significant ways, such as translating almah,
which clearly means "young woman" to "virgin" instead in Isaiah. This
is but one of many examples where they deliberately changed OT scripture
to look like it was a precursor to Jesus of Nazareth.
LW> MB> They then wrote the New Testament, relying on
LW> MB> citations from their jiggered "Old Testament" that supposedly
LW> MB> showed all sorts of "prophesies" to support the claims they made
LW> MB> in the New Testament. Does this seem just a bit circular to you?
LW> MB>
LW> MB> If you check with Jews who really know Hebrew Scripture, you'll
LW> MB> find out that according to the original texts and traditions,
LW> MB> Jesus of Nazareth DOES NOT fit the specifications of the Messiah.
LW> MB> It is merely the jiggered version of the Hebrew Scriptures that
LW> MB> makes it APPEAR that those conditions and prophesies are met.
LW>
LW> The Jews at the time of Jesus did not believe he fulfilled the
LW> prophesies either. Otherwise they would have accepted him as the
LW> Messiah. That much is a Christian commonplace, and won't strike
LW> anyone as revolutionary. Why should it be surprising that Jews
LW> today wouldn't consider Jesus to have fulfilled the prophecies?
LW>
LW> Even this is a rather simplified version of the issue, however.
LW> There are at least two major, distinct veins of prophecy in the
LW> Old Testament. One foretells a powerful political ruler in the
LW> Davidic line who will rid Israel from her foreign oppressors and
LW> restore her to the glory she had in the time of David and Solomon.
LW> The other predicts that God himself will come and bring
LW> righteousness to the earth. Before we even ask whether Jesus
LW> fulfilled the prophecies, we have to ask, "Which prophecies? One
LW> set, the other set, or both?"
Many writings in the NT were put there for no other reason than to
make it appear that prophesies were completed by Jesus' arrival.
His Davidic lineage is a good example. In one Gospel it is traced
back through Joseph, who, if you are to believe the virgin birth
mythology, was definitely not His father at all. The other Gospeller
saw the mistake and "corrected" it by tracing His lineage back through
Mary, using much the same ancestors in many places, but including a
totally different number of generations. If we are to believe either
one of these accounts, we have to conclude that every single person
on one side of Jesus' earthly family married at an average of twice
the age of every single person on the other side of His family, as
one "family tree" contains twice as many ancestors as the other.
Do you really think that's likely?
LW> Claims that Jesus literally fulfilled both sets of prophecies will
LW> run into all sorts of trouble with the New Testament itself. Jesus
LW> clearly stated that "his kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36),
LW> which neatly dispenses with all the prophecies of a literal
LW> overthrow of foreign rule and return to independent Jewish
LW> nationhood under Jesus. Not to mention that Jesus never
LW> established such a kingdom.
Many apologists claim that the story of Jonah is actually the story of
the resurrection (i.e., they were both in a dark place for three days,
they both saw another being in the darkness while they were there, they
both were delivered by God, etc.). The Jews never saw this story as a
prophesy of the coming Messiah, but some apologists, in hindsight, do.
Another example is the echo of Moses' esacape from certain death when
the ruler ordered the killing of all male children. Sound familiar?
Whether you see these similarities as coincidence, plagiarism of earlier
tales, or precursors, there are too many such parallells between the
OT and the NT to be ignored. I see them as a direct borrowing of tales
from an earlier mythology. Some see the earlier stories in the OT as
metaphores of later, NT events (i.e., prophesy).
LW> Jesus even combatted the idea that the Messiah would be from
LW> the Davidic line. In Matthew 22:41-46 we read:
LW> While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
LW> "What do you think about the Christ? {Or Messiah} Whose son
LW> is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them,
LW> "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him
LW> `Lord'? For he says, `The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my
LW> right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' {Psalm
LW> 110:1} If then David calls him `Lord', how can he be his
LW> son?"
LW> No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one
LW> dared to ask him any more questions.
LW>
LW> This story also occurs in Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44. This
LW> shows that even the Christians did not think Jesus literally
LW> fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies.
LW> BTW, present day fundamentalist Christians are still looking
LW> for Jesus to literally fulfill those prophecies. I prophesy
LW> that they will be waiting for a looooong time!
Yes, indeed. But as I point out above, there are many who see the
OT as having been fulfilled. One just has to look at it right, and
interpret it correctly to see what I'm getting at.
Many of the similarities that they see amount more to plariarism
of earlier tales than to prophesies. You can see the fulfillment
of a prophesy in about anything, if you want to. Like the bit
about there being "wars and rumors of wars, etc." in the "last
days." When has this planet NOT had wars and rumors of wars? That
little piece of "prophesy" is so vague as to be totally
meaningless, but tell a fundy that.
... Is it illegal to yell "MOVIE" in a crowded firehouse?
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Ray Talley
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Re: Christ was perfect.
Date: 14 Jul 94 01:15:58
--------
EID:d080 1cee09e0
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 2e262039
SL> Proving the existence of God in only done by your own faith or belief
SL> in Him. Every religion is based on faith or belief. What is faith or
SL> belief? An emotion.
So far so good. You cannot know your god exists you can only believe it
so.
SL> By the same token of proving, how can I prove that
SL> I love my parents or my kids? I can't!
Are you saying that love is a mere matter of faith? Doesn't the fact that
you nurture and support your family demonstrate your love far beyond a mere
belief? Do your kids BELIEVE you love them or do they KNOW it?
SL> I have faith in them, I believe
SL> in them. The same thing applies to God.
BUZZZZZZT! Sorry but you lose 5 points for constructing a weak analogy.
In fact tho I'm sure you do have faith in, and believe in your family,
they have material and separate existence outside of you. That is, it
can be proven that they are real. As you pointed out above this cannot
be true of (any) god.
SL >Since I was not there when the
SL> bible was written, I cannot prove that it is accurate or even true.
Then why follow that particular belief system? There are lots of others
to choose from. Hey, mix and match mythologies. It has a nice ring to it.
SL> The way I look at it is this way, Christ is the Son of God who came
to
SL> Earth through a virgin birth. He died on the cross and rose again in
SL> three days and will come back for His children at the end of time. Now,
1) Hebrew's beleve we are all the 'Son of God'
2) 'virgin birth' is a mistranslation of the greek word for maiden
3) If Jesus of Nazerath 'rose from the dead' why did he then procede to
show himself ONLY to the members of his inner circle. Think about it, your
god sends his only son to die then returns him to life but snatches him
back into heaven before anyone can notice.
SL> if I spent my whole life in belief of this and died, when my time came,
SL> then look at the riches that I would receive in Heaven. If there is
no
SL> God, and I spent my life the same way and died then I have not lost
SL> anything.
So let me see if I got this right. You believe in christianly just in case
it is the one true relgion? Wow, what if Norse mythology is the one true
relgion?
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Ray Talley
To: Steve Lew
Sub: Re: Christian's non-answer
Date: 14 Jul 94 01:44:14
--------
EID:7d3b 1cee0d80
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 2e26203a
-=> Quoting Steve Lew to Chris Lee <=-
CL> SL> Why does God need to prove himself to you with such idiotic requests
CL> oh, so god doesn't have to prove himself? but why did he do it before?
He didn't, you know, see next quote.
SL> The people of that period of time were in such a smaller more
SL> illiterate world and the only thing they could understand were "magic
SL> acts". Today, people are more educated and don't need "magic acts" they
SL> use their intellect.
So god used to do "magic shows" cause thats all those poor dumb folks
could understand, but now we got us education and we are so smart we just
know god exists cause we been told it over and over.
In fact there is a tiny grain of truth here, those "miracles" were recorded
because those seeing something did not understand the natural causes of
what
they saw. Just as idle speculation (without a shred of proof) imagine Moses
surprise when a pocket of natural gas explodes into flame right in front
of
him as he crosses the desert. "It's a burning bush of fire! Clearly a sign
from God." as I said just wondering outloud.
BTW, if we are so much more "educated" today why do you continue to rely
of a
book written between 1500 and 3000 years ago? Hmmmm.
CL> SL> God performs miracles everyday. You wake up, the sun shines, Howerd
It's been 3000 years and you are still attribuing natural events (like the
sun) to your god's handy work. Go back to sleep.
<----- bad Howard Stern joke deleted ----- Your welcome.----->
SL> At that time black, asians and native americans were not christians
SL> and had their own gods. It wasn't until Christian missionaries went
SL> into these areas that they became christians.
Is there a point here? Are you saying that if a Chinaman had been in
Judea in 45AD (not immpossible) Paul and the boys would have let them
make addtions to the bible? Get a clue!
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Ray Talley
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Re: agnostic not atheist
Date: 16 Jul 94 07:09:44
--------
EID:3316 1cf03920
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 2e28c0a8
-=> Tyler A. Wunder to Ray Talley <=-
TAW> G'day Ray:
Hello Tyler, nice to chat with you.
TAW>> Which means that in the case of an unevidenced claim, you feel
TAW>> that believing the claim is equally valid to not believing the claim.
I feel that in the absence of "hard" evidence poeple tend to rely on thier
belief systems.
TAW>> Now, will I have to come up with silly, non-falsifiable
TAW>> unevidenced claims as examples to make you retract this, or will you
TAW>> do it yourself?
RT> I guesis I have to agree with Michael on that one.
Nope, you may be as silly as you wish. Myself, I practice being silly regularl
y
and I hope you do too. However it won't help you prove that one should
be
automatically negative in the absence of evidence.
TAW> Then I will have to come up with the previously threatened
TAW> "silly, non-falsifiable unevidenced claims" to enlighten you on the
TAW> issue of the burden of proof.
I understand and agree with the "burden of proof, but just because you
believe in blue unicorns and I don't does not mean said blue unicorns do
not
exist. (Proof aside, that is.) Many people did not BELIEVE in the existence
of
atoms. Einstein did not BELIEVE in the existence of quantum mechanics, yet
these thing are now PROVEN real.
RT> Since no imperical
RT> evidence can prove a matter of faith I must point out that the statment
RT> there is no god is a belief (read faith required). The more intellectuall
y
RT> honest statement is that of the agnostic who says, "I don't know."
TAW>
TAW> Technically, what you 'know' and what you 'believe' are two
TAW> seperate things. Either you believe or you don't; believe and
TAW> non-belief are both compatible with either thinking that you 'know'
or
TAW> thinking that you 'do not know'.
I agree completely. That's why I'm an agonstic and not an athiest.
TAW> I do not believe in God, but I don't
TAW> claim to know with 100% certainty that he does not exist.
Then you also realize that you are functioning under a belief system, that
is
a relgion. You say you connot know if there is a god or not so your must
believe there is none. Isn't that what I said in the frist place?
TAW> In any event, here's the scenario in a nutshell: you seem to
TAW> think that not believing in God is unwarranted because "no imperical
TAW> [sic] evidence can prove a matter of faith". In essence then, you
Are you really stooping to the level of correcting my spelling? How
disappointing.
TAW> consider a matter of faith to be an unevidenced claim which (I assume)
TAW> cannot be falsified.
I didn't say that, or at least what I meant to say was that the jury is
still
out.
TAW> Ignoring for the moment the fact that you either
TAW> believe or you do not, we'll examine the prudence of avoiding making
a
TAW> statement of belief or non-belief in favour of claiming "I don't know"
TAW> in the face of unevidenced, unfalsifiable claims.
Go for it!
TAW> 1) 'Do I believe that God exists? I don't know whether or not he
TAW> exists.' This is the most common use of the "agnostic" cop-out. It's
TAW> pretty socially acceptable, and most people won't even think to point
TAW> out that it doesn't answer the question, but avoids it by answering
a
TAW> question of belief with a statement of knowledge.
Not at all, (in the absence of evidence) I choose to neither believe nor
dis-believe. This is not avoiding the belief question. This is honestly
saying
that there is not enough data to provide any meaningful answer. They are
not
the same thing. I wonder what fightens you so about this?
TAW> Let's see how it
TAW> looks, though, when applied to other unevidenced, non-falsifiable
TAW> beliefs...
OK.
TAW> 2) 'Do I believe that fairie-like creatures exist on Neptune? I
TAW> don't know whether or not they exist.' Like the God assertion, this
TAW> one is unevidenced but (currently) unfalsifiable.
Maybe we could increase funding for the space program and go look. Sounds
like
a plan to me. :>
TAW> 3) 'Do I believe that an invisible hippo named Daisy exists, and
TAW> that she leaves no evidence of her existence? I don't know whether
or
TAW> not Daisy exists.'
The question of wheather ANY being (Daisy or YAWH) could exist and yet leave
no evidence of it's existence is, as yet, unanswered.
Oh dopey me, that's an agnostics response, isn't it?
TAW> Most sane people would immediately claim that they
TAW> didn't believe in Daisy, but by the "agnostic" logic, as you say, the
TAW> more honest statement is "I don't know". This is, of course, not the
TAW> more honest response because it's not even a proper response to the
TAW> question at all.
Now you are on very scary ground, i.e. "most sane people would..."
There was a time when most sane people believed the Earth was ~4000 years
old
and flat.
TAW> 4) 'Do I believe that the Great Pepper Fiend created the
TAW> universe? I don't know whether or not the Great Pepper Fiend created
TAW> the universe.' Yet another unevidenced, unfalsifiable claim, yet it's
TAW> pretty obvious that a statement of non-belief is what is appropriate,
TAW> and not the evasion of ignorance.
Well if one studies science it at least can be shown the neither the Great
Pepper Fiend nor any other supernatural god was REQUIRED to bring the universe
into existence. However as we both have said, matters of faith and knowledge
are separate arenas.
TAW> 5) 'Do I believe that I was the subject of a fiendishly clever
TAW> sex-change operation, the details of which have been removed from my
TAW> brain by advanced extra-terrestrial technology, and from the brains
of
TAW> all other earthlings as well? In other words, do I believe that I
was
TAW> a woman until just a few days ago when all of the physical evidence
TAW> and all of the memories of all persons on earth were accordingly
TAW> removed or altered to take my new masculine identity into account?
TAW> With regard to the above claim, I do not know if it is true or not.'
Probably this claim is just silly and not unfalsifiable. The biotechnology
for
such a feat does not exist (as yet) on this planet. Now if you want to add
a
paragraph about alien abduction...
TAW> Assuming you haven't got some dogmatic reason for preferring a
TAW> statement of ignorance (i.e. "I don't know") as opposed to an honest
TAW> statement of non-belief (assuming you're not insane, you don't believe
TAW> any of the above claims, but because it's not socially acceptable to
TAW> play "agnostic" with regard to much beyond the "God-claim", you
TAW> refrain from doing so),
At frist I thought I had no "dogmatic reason" for my agnostism, but on
reflection I see it is most like a result of my training as a scientist.
Tho I
can hardly wait for you to state your BELIEF that science is a belief system.
(sic) <- see I do know what it means.
TAW> hopefully you've learned something here.
You know, I started out repling to you in the spirit of open debate, but
your
arrogant, condecending post has changed my mind. You are every bit the blind
faith fool that I see reflected in the funny-mentalist posts. All you have
proven is that you would rather cling desperately to your own religon of
atheism then admit you don't already know everthing.
... "Don't mince words, Tyler ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Ray Talley
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Re: SOOOO?
Date: 16 Jul 94 07:22:42
--------
EID:b464 1cf03ac0
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 2e28c0a9
-=> Quoting Ruby Tuesday to Tyler A. Wunder <=-
RT> Hello Tyler!
RT>
RT> Wednesday July 13 1994 19:51, Tyler A. Wunder wrote to Johnny
RT> Mckinney: TA> JM>>>> If everybody
TA> JM>>>> practiced homosexuality, the human race would be
TA> JM>>>> extinct in a mere 100 years or less.
RT>
RT> And if everybody decided to be a dentist, we would all starve to
RT> death. If everybody decided to be interior designers...
RT>
RT> The point is, EVERYBODY practicing homosexuality is quite unlikely.
RT> As long as the current percentages stay about the same, I see no
RT> problem. If anything, the human population is growing much too fast.
RT> Ruby Tuesday
RT>
Good repsonse Rudy!
Do you suppose we will confuse anyone by having the same initials?????
Oh, Tyler, G'DAY! I just finished trashing your response on atheism vs
agnostism. This was addressed to your mere by way of flame bait.
Bye.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Ray Rozowski
Sub: Re: I don't _think_ so...
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:18
--------
EID:de77 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92a
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Ray Rozowski to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> 1. Self-actualization. The state in which a human being is at his
PS> highest potential.
PS> 2. Self-esteem. The feeling of self worth that one has.
PS> 3. Love and belongingness. The support and love of others.
PS> 4. Safety. A feeling of physical and emotional freedom from harm.
PS> 5. Physiological needs. Includes such things as satisfying hunger,
PS> thirst, sex drive, et cetera.
RR> Interesting view. :) Actually, looking at the hierarchy, it appears
RR> that Christianity seems to strive to prevent at least three of those
RR> levels from being completed, thus preventing many Christians from
RR> reaching their full potential.
Christianity seeks to deny the lowest level in some spots,
doesn't do much to enhance the next highest, can either enhance or dramaticall
y
reduce the third highest, ditto for the second, and seems to preclude the
first all together. After all, Christianity is all about surrendering yourself
to a group and essentially losing individuality.
... Maybe God is a kid with a chemistry set.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Scot Bear
Sub: Re: Arse Hol(er)y
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:19
--------
EID:ac8b 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92b
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Scot Bear to Preston Simpson <=-
> SB> This echo needs more NOODLES!
>
> Scot, what have I told you about noodles? Sheesh. Some people
> just never
> learn. Noodles are NOT your friends!
SB>
SB> Oh? :)
Yes. It is written right here on this piece of parchment , I quote: "And yt is written; _eat not_ ye noodles, _for they
are
_
evil and wrong." Prove that it isn't.
... "Daddy, what does '78% of C: formatted' mean?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: FUNdies
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:19
--------
EID:2095 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92c
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting David Rice to Preston Simpson <=-
>DR> Translation: "Steve I want you SO BAD! CALL ME so you can
>DR> lower yourself at my knees while I lift my skirt so you
>DR> can do a good job."
PS>
DR> Sorry!
Why sorry? I enjoy this sort of juvenile behavior.
>DR> Did I get that right?
PS> Probably not, but it was damned amusing.
DR> I'm just so empty inside, I have to strike out at people. :-)
Yes, it just gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling in side, doesn't it?
... Does anyone REALLY read these stupid taglines?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:20
--------
EID:2cb1 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92d
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting C. J. Henshaw to Preston Simpson <=-
CJH> Sunday July 10 1994, Preston Simpson writes to Fredric Rice:
PS> Now, if we could get that through some people's heads (perhaps with
a
CJH> chainsaw), then we might get results.
CJH> You're either naturally sadistic or you've been playing too much Doom.
Yes, it's true. I confess. I'm a Doom player.
CJH> In the case of fundies, I would suggest a fire-axe, a
CJH> meatgrinder, hydrocloric acid or a sandblaster. And if the fundi's
Interesting ideas...may not work for fundies, but I know of a few people
that
I could test these tools on first....
CJH> head is too hard for that, there's always a 12KVAC power transmition
CJH> line, thermite, plasma welding tools and industrial cutting lasers.
CJH> A'int I hateful?
Yes, you are the most hateful (yet remarkably hilarious and inventive) people
I have run across in here. Be proud!
... Myth-conceptions are the major cause of wars.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: C. J. Henshaw
Sub: Re: teacher lets us learn
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:20
--------
EID:96dc 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92e
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting C. J. Henshaw to Preston Simpson <=-
CJH> Sunday July 10 1994, Preston Simpson writes to Kevin Lamonte:
PS> Allowing for exaggeration and biased source, this still means that
PS> less than 1/5th of the U.S. population is Christian.
CJH> Such a low figure was probably provided to keep the xtian persecution
CJH> complex going.
I was kind of surprised that that many people in the U.S. subscribe
to such ideas. The Christians usually claim to have 1 billion members world-
wide, but if you eliminate the Catholics (as some do), then that number
drops
to about 400 million, or substantially less than Islam.
... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: John Tait
Sub: Re: Saw jesus
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:20
--------
EID:8397 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f92f
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting John Tait to Hector Plasmic <=-
-> JT>It also said He saw Jesus, who by the way is not dead.
-> Evidence to back up your baseless assertions, please. Which do you want?
JT> Evidence that Paul saw Jesus or Evidence that Jesus rose from the
JT> dead. In His name
Either one, but I must ask that your evidence be non-Biblical in nature.
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ormat C:?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: Re What!
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:21
--------
EID:d360 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f930
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Marguerite Kendall to Chris Lee <=-
MK> Chris Lee wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
MK> My kids are the four-legged kind. More intelligent than some people
MK> on Holysmoke.
CL> your kids are four-legged? who the hell was your spouse?
MK> My spouse is the normal kind, like you and me.
A hermaphrodite?
... Ride The Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: Christ was perfect.
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:21
--------
EID:0a2f 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f931
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Marguerite Kendall to Chris Lee <=-
MK> Chris Lee wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
MK> Yes, he was circumsized. Christ was perfect, and sinless.
CL> i don't know, does one have be circumsized to be perfect?
MK> No you don't have to be perfect to be circumsized.
You've got this backwards. Chris was asking if you had to be circumcised
to
be perfect.
MK> But in the biblical times, all Jewish males were circumcised.
So? It's not done today nearly as much as it once was.
... Myth-conceptions are the major cause of wars.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: I just can't stop praising the name of Jesus
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:21
--------
EID:2345 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f932
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Marguerite Kendall to Steve Rose <=-
SR> Hello Marguerite!
MK> Why satanism is considered an occult, is because satan is hidden trying
MK> as a roaring lion to devour us. Those in the occult, don't tell what
MK> they do. They don't even tell that they are in the occult.
SR> And most fundy jeesoids never even know that have been in
SR> one all along. The one called, Crustianity.
MK> I know, because I have several friends, that come out of the occult,
MK> that are now believers.
SR> Yup...they have simply substituted one superstious myth-cult
SR> for another, more popular one. That's like changing brands
SR> of cigarettes. Fundies never change.
MK> You know the word fundy is not in the dictionary.
MK> One day, you might (might) see it.
Dismissed as irrelevant. And the word "fundamentalist" does appear in my
dictionary under "fundamentalism."
MK> -!-
MK> ! Origin: The Shephard's Board; Alexandria, VA (1:109/388)
... MANICS FOR JESUS! oh, wait, I'm really bummed....
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Marguerite Kendall
Sub: Re: Howdy?
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:22
--------
EID:e0d5 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f933
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Marguerite Kendall to Chris Lee <=-
MK> If you don't know Christ.
MK> Your physical body will die, but your spirit will be in hell for
MK> eternity.
A cheery thought. Guess all those little kids that God slew back in Exodus
and the millions of children that continue to die today, as well as those
who never hear of Christ are all going to go to hell for something that
they
couldn't help. How do you sleep at night?
... Maybe God is a kid playing SimEarth.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Re: church
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:22
--------
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MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f934
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Phil Morrison to Perry Robinson <=-
> SS> What church is that?
> The one undivided Church of the first 1,000 yrs of Christianity.
PM> Not the Roman Catholic Church, it started in 1054, yes?
PM> phil
Ummm. Tricky question. The Christian Church got its first big boost when
Constantine made it legal in the fourth century. The Council of Nicea
began establishing church doctrine in 325. The Great Schism which resulted
in
the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches occurred in 1054. The
answer to your question is "sort of," since the Church existed since the
death of Christ and did not split into RC and EO branches until 1054.
... Even ostriches don't keep their heads in the sand!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Re: killing
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:22
--------
EID:fcc5 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f935
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Phil Morrison to Martin Goldberg <=-
> The bible condems killing yet we go ahead and kill criminals to protect
> ourselves from them.
PM> Wrong.
PM>
PM> The Bible condemns MURDER.
PM>
PM> Killing, however, is sanctioned,
PM> for those who deserve the same... yes?
PM>
PM> I favor stoning for pre-meditated murder, btw.
PM>
PM> The victims relatives might cast the first stone.
But God indulged in genocide of the innocent. Would you really trust a creatur
e
of that caliber to provide you with the guidelines for living a good life?
... The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Creationist Debating
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:23
--------
EID:4402 1cf19cc0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> Out idle curiosity (read, "lack of anything better to do"), what
PS> exactly *is* Prewett's method of figuring such things? There may be
PS> room for a thesis or two in there on numerical obsession or some such.
DM> I caught a bit of one of his posts (no sane person reads ALL of
DM> them) in which he pegs his hopes upon a "well-known Catholic with a
DM> head wound." The Pope having been shot in the gut, that leaves him
DM> with Kennedy. I don't know why this well-known Catholic should team
DM> up with a well-known Jew for the ride to Armegeddon, but that was
Well, shoot. Just how is this supposed to come about, anyhow? Magic? Are
John
and his "grass-roots apolitical believers" praying for it to happen?
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)acrifice to random god?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Song
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:23
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
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-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Sean Mccullough <=-
ND>
ND> JESUS LIVES THAT IS WHO!!!!!!!
ND>
SM>
SM>
SM> Have you any direct evidence that your "Jesus" is alive.....or ever
SM> was...
SM>
SM>
SM> I don't think that you do.......
SM>
ND> Sure I do..... He Lives within my heart....
No, no, NO. You seem to have misunderstood the question. Sean's not asking
for
belief, he's asking for evidence.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: babble-craft
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:23
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EID:5c54 1cf19cc0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
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-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> Neat! Everyone is controlled by your three-headed death
FR> gods, huh? Do you have any _evidence_ that your death gods exist?
FR> After you present that, then kindly present evidence that your death
FR> gods controll Steve Rose.
FR> Thank you in advance.
ND> I do believe God does have divine
ND> appointments that he sets up for people. And I believe God
ND> has already had it planned for you and others
ND> to read and listen to his word. God is knocking
ND> on your hearts door. Why not answer him today
If God is indeed the control freak you've made him out to be, why bother
with
all of this Gospel stuff and just make us saved? Or does God get some sort
of
kick out of watching innocents suffer and slaying little kids?
... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Song of utter stupidity
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:24
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EID:2d7f 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f939
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Fredric Rice <=-
nd> ... "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it"
FR>
FR> Because the innocent get slaughtered by the believers if they don't.
ND>
ND> They are not innocent if they disoybey the Word of God are they??
What of the innocents that your God slew in Exodus? You know, all the Egyptian
first-born? Were they "disoybey"-ing the word of God?
... Maybe God is a kid playing SimEarth.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Re: Can Christianity be Proven.
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:24
--------
EID:e8c0 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f93a
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Nathan Dutton to Mark Drake <=-
MD> Because, un-like those of you who believe in a dead god, my God and
MD> Goddess have appeared in front of me, talked to me, given me advice.
MD> And *NO* I was not using *ANY* mind altering substance. I regularly
MD> talk to my God and Goddess, in plain english, and get clear,
MD> understandable answers and suggestions. Can you say the same thing
MD> about your god? And when he does answer, the answer is so cryptic that
MD> no-one, except self-serving morons like you can understand it? The one
MD> that seems to be content to hand down commandments than no one,
MD> *ESPECIALLY* so-called christians seem to keep while professing to
MD> keep them?
MD> Mark
ND> JESUS is in controll of your God and Goddess for your God and
ND> Goddess you claim to talk to you are nothing more than Demons.
You are invited to provide any evidence you have of your claims.
ND> You are most likely possessed by them but by the Name of Jesus
You believe that schizophrenics and those afflicted with multiple personalites
are possessed, don't you?
ND> You can be set Free.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What a load of shit. Christianity is all about slavery
to an invisible entity.
... SENILE.COM not loaded. Out of memory.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Preston Simpson
To: Kevin Lamonte
Sub: Re: " Get Saved Today "
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:25
--------
EID:bc0d 1cf19cc0
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PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Kevin Lamonte to Preston Simpson <=-
PS>Just because I can't help myself, I'm going to share my ideas
>(dare I say "ethics"?) about willfully causing another's death.
PS>There is a difference between "murder" and "killing." "Murder"
>results when one unjustifiably slays another. "Killing"
>results when one justifiably slays another.
KL> The crucial word is "justifiably". Speaking only for yourself,
KL> how do you determine what is "just"? Can you imagine a situation
KL> in which you would murder, rather than kill?
Okay. I'll speak just for myself:
I can justify killing someone to defend myself or my loved ones. I can justify
it as a punishment for murder or for rape; or to prevent both/either from
occurring. If I see someone very seriously threatening myself or someone
I
care about, I will feel quite free to use any and all force necessary to
stop
them, up to and including killing.
I cannot imagine a situation in which I would murder someone. Plain and
simple
.
While I am quite capable of attacking someone and beating them senseless
if I
am so provoked, I do not think myself capable of murder.
PS>By my own moral code, I am quite incapable of murder, but I am
>very capable of killing. I would kill to defend myself or my
>family/loved ones, or as punishment for a crime. (i.e.- the
>victim in question perpetrated one of the only two crimes that
>I advocate a death penalty for.) Anything beyond that, for me,
>is inexcusable and falls under the domain of "murder."
KL> I am quite easily _capable_ of murder; I just hope I am not
KL> capable of after-the-fact justification.
My ethical system consists of having a few personal absolutes (along
the lines of "A is always right" or "B is always wrong." I have *very* few
of these.), and letting the rest be determined by circumstances. Except
in
a few cases, I think it ridiculous to have one set of hard and fast rules
that
one will never deviate from. But then, I speak only for myself and am
responsible just for me at this particular point in time.
PS>... Nobody notices when things go right.
KL> An interesting argument I once made using this tidbit.
KL> Machiavelli doesn't seem to have a great impression of the
KL> average citizens, calling them selfish, greedy, immoral, etc.
Quite a few are on one level or another; hence the "bread and circuses"
syndrome that plagues every "warm body" democracy.
KL> However, from a Prince's point of view, Machiavelli is absolutely
KL> correct: those who obey the laws are irrelevant. It's only when
KL> things "go wrong" that attention is required.
Entirely true, IMO.
... "Did it ever occur to you that God might be a committee?" -J. Harshaw
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: Re: Questions
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:38:25
--------
EID:c433 1cf19cc0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e29f93c
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Chris Ferree to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> CB> Byzantium held out until 1453. A thousand years: not too bad. I
PS> CB> am not sure the good ol' U.S. of A. will enjoy such success.
PS>I doubt it. A government as corrupt and worthless as our own is destined
t
PS>fail unless major changes are made.
CF> You think Byzantium was not corrupt? Ha!
Do WHAT? I was responding to the assertion that the United
States may not last a millenium. I know from the history courses I've taken
that Byzantium was about as corrupt as they come. The reasons for their
continued survival until 1453 were luck, a lot of money, and well-motivated
free soldiers. It helped some that the Europeans held a couple of crusades
to
partially defend them from the Muslim invasions shortly after the turn of
the
millenium (though the Fourth Crusade ended in the sacking of Constantinople),
and it helped even more that the Russians were devoted to the EOC and were
willing to support them.
CF> Also, you might want to consider other empires which embraced other
CF> religions yet remarkably survives; the Chinese dynasties, the Roman
CF> empire (for the most part, it was pagan), etc.
I have. Seems to me that religion doesn't play much of a part in determining
a country's longevity SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH THE RUNNING
OF
THE STATE.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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From: Larry Brewer
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Pots and Kettles
Date: 17 Jul 94 06:44:00
--------
EID:235b 1cf13580
MSGID: 1:128/50 2E223BE8
In a message to Ken Wiens <07-15-94 21:00> Martin Goldberg wrote:
KW> If "the basis of evolution is to select the strongest" then
KW> there is a purpose that drives evolution, a mind, a force
KW> that knowingly "selects the strongest." This would suggest
KW> that there is something to the notion of Theistic evolution.
KW> And here I thought it was all random. Evolution actually
KW> "selects the strongest..."
MG> The basis of gravity is to make things fall. why does gravity do
MG> this? Does gravity think about making things fall? No. Neither
MG> does evolution, but it selects the strongest just as surely as
MG> gravity makes things fall.
Select.... to select means you have to choose... to choose means you have
a c
hoice... a will. If evolution `selects' the strongest just as surely as
grav
ity makes things fall--then why do we still have stupid people, tribal people
, morons, down's syndrome, club feet or cleft lips, ugly people, mentally
ret
arded people, ect and then on the other hand very beautiful people, bright
an
d intelligent people, ect. It seems to me that this selective thing makes
us
all victims of our environments--victims of our governments (by laws and
dec
rees--who may live and who will die).
More to the point the `selection' you all talk about--does it have a `will'
o
r is it just `random'... where is the justice in random selection ?
Governments in the world are begining to realize that they have a role in
`se
lection' (superior race)... In fact the Supreme Court ruled in 1925 in the
Ca
rrie Buck case that the State has a right to select who will breed... she
was
sterilized by the state of Virginia because she was deemed by the State
to b
e feeble minded. The State deemed that feeble minded people were in essence
not desirable (not a strong trait or a good trait for society).
A State run `natural selection'... a choice made by the State for the people.
BTW: the Carrie Buck case is one of tens of thousands of people done in
thi
s country and let alone not to include Nazi Germany where generations of
Jews
are gone forever.
I have never seen gravity do things like this--objects don't have a choice
in
whether they fall... all things that go up eventually fall. Gravity doesn't
select or have a will... and governments can't choose when to use gravity,
ei
ther.
Larry
--- QuickBBS 2.76 Ovr
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50)
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--------
From: Mark Drake
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Can Christianity be Proven.
Date: 16 Jul 94 11:40:00
--------
EID:599f 1cf05d00
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:128/175.0 2e286c0b
-=> Nathan Dutton Spake unto Mark Drake about Re: Can Christianity be Proven.
<=-
ND> JESUS is in controll of your God and Goddess for your God and
ND> Goddess you claim to talk to you are nothing more than Demons.
ND> You are most likely possessed by them but by the Name of Jesus
ND> You can be set Free.
ND> HE LIVES
You can take *THIS* shit, and shove it up your own ass. I do not tell
*YOU* how to believe, do not *THINK* about being presumptuous enough as
to
tell *ME* how to believe.
You have your crutch, a destroying religion, I have my life-affirming,
earth-friendly religion.
You go ahead and worship your dead god on a stick. I will worship the
planet that allows your kind to exist on her.
You worship the torture instrument that your god allegedly died on, I'll
worship the tree that it was fashioned from.
If this is not clear enough for you, we can continue this, but you will
not like it!
Just remember, in jehovah's *OWN* words,(if you believe in the babble)
he is *BOTH* good and evil, so by demeaning what I, or anyone you
disagrees beliefs as evil, you are demeaning both *YOUR* god *AND*
yourself! Think about *THAT*!
Mark _Hawk_ Drake
... May the Goddess, in her infinite wisdom, have mercy on you!
... Abort the Gay Whales with a Nuclear Handgun for Comrade Jesus
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
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From: Mike Hill
To: Chris Ferree
Sub: THE HOLYSMOKE OF THE holy
Date: 17 Jul 94 10:05:00
--------
EID:ac99 1cf150a0
PID: RA 2.02
MSGID: 1:128/175 53c7a006
REPLY: 1:231/285 86E079B9
MH> not MK>, eh?
_M_ike _H_ill
---
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From: Sean Mccullough
To: Nathan Dutton
Sub: Song
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:53:00
--------
EID:88f2 1cf1b6a0
PID: JCQWK 2.01 IV beta 02019401
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7610
Hello, Nathan!!
On (14 Jul 94) Nathan Dutton wrote to Sean Mccullough...
ND>
ND> JESUS LIVES THAT IS WHO!!!!!!!
ND>
SM>
SM>
SM> Have you any direct evidence that your "Jesus" is alive.....or ever
SM> was...
SM>
SM>
SM> I don't think that you do.......
SM>
ND>
ND> Sure I do..... He Lives within my heart....
Pardonnez-moi, but I asked for "DIRECT EVIDENCE", not a bunch of
sentimental claptrap based on a combination of superstition and
overactive imagination.
ND> HE LIVES
Let's try this again: Do you have any DIRECT EVIDENCE that your Jesus is
alive, or even any that he currently exists in any way, shape, or form
outside your over-active imagination??
They say that the third time is often the charm: can you beat that??
ND> ... "Who can say,"I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without
sin"?
I can, for one. In religion, "sin" means violation of the law or will of
some god[s] or other. Usually, the only Deity using this term is the
rather psychopathic one of the Semite Monotheists, the god of
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, with which/whom I have as little
traffick as I can arrange. As I do not believe in that god, I am
guiltless of "sin", whatever that is. (David Rice)
The only OTHER usage of the term "sin" is the ORIGINAL usage of the
word: in archery, it means "to miss a mark with an arrow". As I have
never gotten past not shredding myself with the bowstring in archery, I
can't sin in THIS way yet, either!!
As for being able to say "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean": I
have, since abandoning Jesus-cultism, been true to myself. I have
stopped the inherent bigotry, tyranny, chicanery, fraud, and malevolence
which Bible-belief had deposited in my head and heart; I have accepted
the FACT that the Biblical view of human sexuality is so unreasonable as
to be genuinely farcical, and have stopped my malevolence towards humans
who do not conform thereto; I have freed myself from the ideological
tyrannies which your religion imposed on me in my nonage, and replaced
them day by day with more humane ideas. I therefore respectfully submit
that my heart is a great deal cleaner than that of anyone who lives a
pack of lies because some ancient desert thunder-demon lied a pleasant
lie to him via some weirdass book or another.
But all hope isn't gone for you, Nathan. You, too, can still WALK AWAY.
Just like I did. You can, too.
atarACksia -- Sean
... Campus Crusade for Cthulhu: If your god's dead blame mine.
--- RA 2.01+/FASTECHO 1.41G+
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--------
From: Charles Baldo
To: John Passaniti
Sub: Consider this
Date: 16 Jul 94 23:36:00
--------
EID:0610 1cf0bc80
MSGID: 1:2613/206 638680fb
-> You have entered conferences that others take some seriousness in.
-> HOLYSMOKE may have started as a joke, but the issues discussed
-> here touch on real life more often than not.
I would have more respect for it if it were called HOYCOW or HOLYTOLEDO
bringing up pleasant images of Pee Wee Reese or Corporal Klinger. GET
A LIFE!
JP-> Again, I have no personal vendetta against you ..
So what if you did! That sound like a threat, are you threatening me?
JP-> that requires *effort* and is reserved for people who I actually
JP-> know verses you, who I don't know at all).
Yes, I notice how you keep *not* putting effort into it.
I TOLD YOU I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY SO WHY DO YOU CONTINUE? LET ME GET
THE LAST WORD IN AND THEN WE CAN CONTINUE NOT KNOWING EACH OTHER!
JP-> So do I! Are you saying that because you treat this like a hobby
JP-> that gives you some special dispensation from having to express
JP-> yourself clearly? Because this is a hobby, you are free from
JP-> having to construct arguments that make sense?
YES!
-> seriousness and thought, then yes, you are going to be slammed.
Hey I am starting to enjoy it so FLAME ON, continue to be annoyed by my
misspelling and bring in the clowns or Hector Plasmic.
All the best
Charles Baldo
* Origin: The Crystal Palace [Rochester, NY] 716-224-9709 V.32bis (1:2613/206
)
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--------
From: John Passaniti
To: Charles Baldo
Sub: Consider this
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:05:01
--------
EID:ecc0 1cf218a0
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 6382af2e
REPLY: 1:2613/206 629795e1
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> CB->do if he has a free weekend some time curing AIDS would be a minor
> CB-> task.
>
> No just a feeling I get, sometimes I go on them. I admit John is an
> extremely intelegent person. He has made statements to the fact
> that if he worked on it he could eventually get it. Which I bet he
> could.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Charles, but no, I never made any such
claim. I did say there is absolutely no reason to believe such technology
wo
n't be common in the future. I have no reason to believe that life itself
can
't be understood. You apparently do, but fail to say why man is supposedly
li
mited in such knowledge.
> My contention is that this is reproduction (Cloning and such)
> not Creation. (something from nothing)
Tell that to the genetic engineers who have mutated bacteria and created
by *design* strains that eat oil slicks and produce insulin. These are
*creat
ions*. They did not exist in nature before.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Would you--/could you/-- with a goat?" (1:2613/102)
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--------
From: Charles Sumner
To: All
Sub: See Church&State Echo
Date: 16 Jul 94 17:12:00
--------
EID:7b29 1cf08980
PID: RA 2.02 22695
MSGID: 1:2613/240 53c6b284
NEWS RELEASE - JULY 16, 1994
KIRYAS JOEL: IS GOVERNMENT FOR SPECIAL INTERESTS?
Quick action by Governor Mario Cuomo signed into law pieces of
legislation designed to counteract the United States Supreme
Court decision in the Kiryas Joel case less than two weeks
previously. One bill allows the special school district set up
for Satmar Hasidic Jews to remain in operation. The other
creates criteria which probably no other village could meet and
allows such a village to set up its own school district.
"This appears to us as if our state government were thumbing
noses at the Supreme Court," said Charles H. Sumner, president
of Rochester Chapter, Americans United for Separation of Church
and State. The Supreme Court in a 6 to 3 decision on June 27
said that the New York State Legislature had violated the
separation of church and state by establishing such a school
district. We do not think that our elected representatives
should turn around and validate it again, requiring another
lawsuit.
In six months lawmakers failed to deal adequately with crime,
low-level nuclear waste, AIDS and newborns, public works
projects, the Wicks Law. They left the budget hanging for 69
days. Yet in less than two weeks they were able to enact and
sign special-interest legislation which violates our
constitution.
To their credit a handful of legislators opposed these bills.
Among these were Senators John B. Daly (R-Lewiston), Richard
Dollinger (D- Brighton), Mary Ellen Jones (D-Irondequoit) and
Assemblypersons Elizabeth Hoffman (R-Tonawanda) and Susan John
(D-Rochester.)
The purpose of the legislature in creating the special district
was to yield to the demands of a religious community which has
separatist tenets. Statements from the Court's decision said
"... government should not prefer one to religion to another, or
religion to irreligion." New York's act "... crosses the line
from permissible accommodation to impermissible establishment."
It "... brings about an impermissible 'fusion' of governmental
and religious functions."
Americans United believes in fair and equal treatment for all
religions and special treatment for none.
-30-
ROCHESTER CHAPTER AMERICANS UNITED
FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
31 APPIAN DRIVE, ROCHESTER NY 14606-4717; 716-334-2989, 247-5587
CONTACT: CHARLES H. SUMNER, 334-2989; sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org---
* Origin: The Flaming Chalice, Rochester, NY (1:2613/240)
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--------
From: Sean Mccullough
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Hello, It's Me...
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:54:00
--------
EID:8325 1cf1b6c0
PID: JCQWK 2.01 IV beta 02019401
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7610
Hello, Marty!!
On (11 Jul 94) Marty Leipzig wrote to All...
ML> Hello, folks.
ML>
ML> It's yours truly, back again from beyond the sea and distant
ML> lands in pursuit of global amity, understanding and loads and
ML> loads of filthy, oil stained, environment despoiling lucre.
I trust you enjoyed yourself <> ??
ML> (if you're a fulminating fundy, please hit the "N" key, besides,
ML> your mother is a cow)
Slightly edited (to eliminate the first reference to the
un-interested)....but I LOVE it anyway!!
ML> I left Houston, via British Airways (I do so love BA...they
ML> even now stock bourbon,
You must have helped someone in "da awl bidness" make a big enough
discovery of light sweet bourbon, er, crude, that BA can afford to stock
its in-flight bars with it as well as the aircraft's fuel tanks.....
ML> not that awful loch water and humic
ML> acid concoction formed up north on the island,
Future petroleum rather than present-day "awl" -- the only diff between
scotch and bourbon -- what's the difference?? ;-D
ML> I stopped in at the Ministry of Geology in Turkey for chat
ML> before I departed for the west. I asked them about the various
ML> nutso groups out looking for the ark. The Chief Geologist grew
ML> rather angry: "We have a limited budget. Since they come here
ML> often under some guise of science; when they get lost or fall
ML> off the mountain, we have to go get them. It just chews great
ML> holes in our budget. I wish they'd just stay the hell away."
ML> I told him that I couldn't agree more.
And quite a few of us feel the same way, and we raise our Scotch glasses
to toast the idea.......
ML> So, I'm back. I see we have a new crop of fundies; complete
ML> with the same old tired arguments. Ah, well. Let the weary
ML> infidel have a stab at 'em. It's been weeks...
ML>
Welcome home, Marty. Glad to have you back!!
Slack -- Sean
... Hail Stargoat! He could kick Yahweh's butt any day.
--- RA 2.01+/FASTECHO 1.41G+
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From: Christopher Baker
To: The Cosmic Star Goat
Sub: Re: Fundie Martyr Meter
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:13:20
--------
EID:0217 1cf0a9a0
you might want to try that again with a two space shorter line in each wrap
ar
ea. [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB 1.58/001027
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From: Christopher Baker
To: Ryan Shaw
Sub: Re: " Time to quit "
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:51:44
--------
EID:9f10 1cf1be60
> CB> whatever you wish. [grin]
> Thanks. That helped. I now have the answer to the universe.
if you got easy answers where would man's search for knowledge end up? tabloid
TV! [grin]
here's the canned text i created for this frequently asked question.
*** sound of can opening ***
it varies. primarily it represents (at off price as Sy Syms would say) Tah
Tah For Now but can be Tough Talking Football Now during the season
(ScabBall doesn't count), Through Touting Fido Net, This Time For Nothing,
etc. as you can see, the possibilities are endless; the potential
mind-boggling.
*** sound of can being tossed into the trash ***
TTFN. (The Truth For Nomenclature) [grin]
Chris
--- DB 1.58/001027
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--------
From: Scot Bear
To: David Johnston
Sub: Re: homosexuality
Date: 15 Jul 94 09:43:40
--------
EID:81ff 2e26a0f8
MSGID: 1:154/69.0 2e26a0f8
> Appalling ignorance. Of course homosexual women reproduced.
> Most of
> them ended up married and producing kids whether they liked
> it or not.
> Now, men, that's a different story, although even there
> many have
> functioned by closing their eyes and imagining...something
> else.
Can you imagine what his "flock" in Kentucky is like if the minister's THIS
st
upid? 8-)
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: STARCOM -- Fundies debunked, free-of-charge! (1:154/69.0)
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From: Robert Curry
To: David Rice
Sub: Plea for help
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:29:02
--------
EID:ab37 1cf183a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210.2 82f287a4
On (15 Jul 94) David Rice wrote to Robert Curry...
SQ> -Why do you stay-?
RC> To take a few potshots every so often so that he can convince
RC> himself that he's _really_ "combatting the evil heathens!"
DR> Plus the Voices in Jesse's head tell him he may not leave.
I don't think he actually hears voices in his head. At least he's
never hinted at such a thing.
No, Jesse's not _that_ far gone!
Now if you said that about Marguerite Kendall, I would have to
admit that there's quite possibly some truth to it; she might find
some benefit from psychiatric help, I think.
DR> Perhaps he wishes to abandon his false beliefs, and just does
DR> not know how to ask for help. That would explain why he hangs
DR> around.
I don't think that applies to him, as he does not appear to have
any willingness to seriously question the underpinnings of his blind
faith. He likely agrees with the "heathens" he despises so much
far more often than he cares to admit.
But the differences he has, he clings to tenaciously - with a very
common religious belief in the superiority of his position, despite
the complete lack of evidence he has to support such a groundless
contention. The truths expressed here by those free from superstition
simply piss him off - how dare the "godless heathens" be right!
--- PPoint 1.82
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--------
From: Joseph Perez
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Scientific support for Christianity
Date: 17 Jul 94 11:41:45
--------
EID:20fe 1cf15d20
MSGID: 1:300/25.0 2e297b68
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7753
> >> creating is defined as causing something- in this case everything
in the
>
> JP>Creation is not the same as cause. Creation is to
> JP>originate, or bring something from nothing.
>
> True enough. However, you're missing the more obvious point: there's
> no reason to believe the universe was created, period. There's no
> evidence of a time when there was no universe.
"There's no evidence of a time when there was no universe."?!?
How about prior to the big bang. Granted time as we know it also began
with the big bang, but the "period" prior to the big bang there was no
universe. So what caused the energy that triggered the big bang? Don't
bother to try to find an answer, it is truly unknowable, even to physics.
Just like God, the energy that originated the big bang can only be
observed, while physicists agree that it's origins will forever remain a
mystery because they originate before time and matter, which is all we will
ever be able to observe physically.
If God's power is perceived as being the positive energy of the
universe then something/someone caused that energy to be released. From
a
strictly physical argument, something created, or caused if you prefer,
the energy that created the universe therefore someone/something created
the universe. To say that it was definitely not an intelligence is as
unfactual as saying it defiantly was. You may believe there is no God,
and I may believe there is, but save for the emotional evidence I gain
through prayer, neither of us has any physical evidence that God does or
does not exist, nor do either of us have physical proof that the universe
was or wasn't created by an intelligence acting purposefully.
I enjoyed your post, because you seem to be able to present your
position without malice towards believers, something I have a hard time
doing when faced with the illogical nonsense that many believers try to
use to defend their position, and I'm in agreement with there final
conclusion!
BTW: Is Plasmic really your last name, and if so, do you know it's
origin?
... Wisdom is knowing what to do with what you know.
--- FE 1.41g+/RA 2.02+
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jim Staal
Sub: evidence???
Date: 13 Jul 94 00:41:11
--------
EID:8a19 1ced0520
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 79035615
* Forwarded from "HolySmoke (Family Educational forum)"
* Originally by Fredric Rice
* Originally to Scot Vertullo
* Originally dated 2 Jul 1994, 19:10
* Forwarded from "HolySmoke (Family Educational forum)"
* Originally by Jim Staal
* Originally to Scot Vertullo
* Originally dated 26 Jun 1994, 21:07
-=> Quoting Scot Vertullo to Jim Staal <=-
SV> Stick a guitar neck up your ass, Jim...and have a NICE day!
Is this what gays call 'rough sex' Scot?
> Tell me, Scot, do you have any evidence, any evidence at
> all
> that you, Scot Vertullo _were_ born a certain way? Do you
> have
> any evidence that someone didn't just program your thinking
> to
> be able to take advantage of you? If you do have any such
> evidence, please present it here for me.
SV>
SV> I think I'll take a clue from YOUR thinking, Jim. Because, IN MY
SV> HEART, I KNOW I was born this way, just as, in YOUR heart you know
SV> you're a Christian. Unless you have found a way to inhabit my mind and
SV> can read the thought-processes, you have NO right to know which way
I
SV> have arrived at where I am today as far as sexuality goes...
That is fine, Scot. I was taking a clue from the thinking of
others on this echo myself when I asked for evidence (which you
obviously do not have) to support your claim of 'born gay'.
SV> you have NO right to know which way I
SV> have arrived at where I am today as far as sexuality goes...
And you have no right to wave it in front of society and declare
that:
a. you are indeed gay.
b. that being gay is perfectly acceptable.
c. it is not your fault that you are gay.
SV> The evidence that someone didn't program my thinking? I have been:
SV> Fired for being gay Denied employment because I am gay Hated by total
SV> strangers because I am gay Beaten-up because I am gay Sent
SV> death-threats by NetMail because I am gay Tried suicide because I am
SV> gay Was ostracized FROM A CHURCH because I am gay
No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that
you were gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things
would not have happened to you, now would they.
SV> Tried suicide because I am gay
Why would you try suicide because you were gay?
SV> Yes, you just see the SEX part and fail to see there is a PERSON
SV> behind it.
SV> Take your bible, burn it and see PEOPLE for what they are, Jim
I do see people for what they are, Scot. People just like me:
sinners in need of a Saviour.
SV> Why would I CHOOSE for all these bad things to happen to me, Jim? It's
SV> no wonder I haven't KILLED someone. The only thing that prevents me
is
SV> my belief in the inherent goodness of people. For every one of YOU,
Scot, it is only because of people like me (Christians) that you
are _alive_ today. If all the Christians were taken out,
the gay-bashers would have the majority.
SV> there are millions of good people that have kept me going.
Millions? Let's be somewhat realistic here, Scot.
SV> I suggest that you get in touch with your God and ask him why you have
SV> to run other's lives instead of running your OWN.
I'm not trying to run your life, Scot. Merely save you from an
eternal death.
SV> The hurt is too deep, Jim and I refuse to discuss this any more if you
SV> can't see the fact that I, as a fellow human-being am being hurt by
SV> your bigoted way of thinking.
Jesus can heal those hurts, Scot. You only need believe and
trust him to do so.
SV> If there IS a hell, Jim, you, and your fellow-haters will surely rot
SV> in it.
There _is_ a Hell, Scot, but I only hate evil (Psalms 97:10),
and lies (Psalms 119:163) and am not too keen on those who hate
God (Psalms 139:21). Oh, and Scot, you are not the judge to
determine who will go there.
Have a chaste day........................................Jim
... I Corinthians 2:13-16
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Nag Hammadi
Date: 18 Jul 94 02:45:02
--------
EID:2908 1cf215a0
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29ecf8
PID: GED G1219
Hello J.J.!
Friday July 15 1994 11:32, J.J. Hitt wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
JJH> Anyone who has read Philip K Dick's VALIS trilogy will have at
JJH> least a nodding aquaintence with them. They're one of the major
JJH> "characters" in Dick's tale.
Oh? Never heard of it. What kind of books are they?
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: fast evolution
Date: 18 Jul 94 02:48:10
--------
EID:499a 1cf21600
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29ee0e
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 3c644881
PID: GED G1219
Hello Marilyn!
Thursday July 14 1994 16:56, Marilyn Burge wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
RT>> animals happened since that time: V-E-R-Y fast evolution.
RT>> Of course, I don't believe in evolution, but that's no
RT>> problem, cuz I have my faith. Are you joking? Ruby Tuesday
MB> Indeed. I sometimes forget in my give-and-take with like-minded
MB> people that there are newcomers on here who don't yet have a fix
MB> on my position. . . .
Thought so. Just checking. It's sometimes hard to tell for sure around
here.
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Suggestion
Date: 18 Jul 94 02:54:28
--------
EID:0528 1cf216c0
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29efe1
PID: GED G1219
Hello J.J.!
Friday July 15 1994 22:39, J.J. Hitt wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
JJH> It's a MUST READ. Find a copy. The author's name was Edwin
JJH> Abbott and he was a Shakesperian scholar by trade and only a
JJH> mathematician as a hobby.
JJH> BUT, I wouldn't recomend it for fundies. It's not a book about
JJH> faith, but rather a book about logic. And the author took more
JJH> than a few jabs at institutional religion in the characters of
JJH> the Circles (who are the priests of Flatland, because they have
JJH> no angles, they're "pointless"). The Circles are the vilains of
JJH> the book, who cause Triangle to be thrown into prison after his
JJH> return to Flatland.
I see. Well, I was simply going on what I knew (I guess that was pretty
obvious). There probably still are some aspects of the book that could
be use
d to argue from a christian point of view, though that point of view may
not n
ecessarily be faith. Thanks for the name of the author. It will make the
boo
k easier for me to find.
JJH> -+- EZPoint V2.2
JJH> + Origin: BUSH LOST - Live with it! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
Ruby
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Robert Curry
Sub: flatland
Date: 18 Jul 94 02:58:42
--------
EID:85c5 1cf21740
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f087
REPLY: 1:3603/210.2 b45f2c02
PID: GED G1219
Hello Robert!
Friday July 15 1994 00:59, Robert Curry wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
RT>> This is a suggestion especially for Christians who are
RT>> trying in vain to explain faith to all of those 'darn
RT>> atheists'...
RC> Religious faith is little more than wishful thinking.
RT>> There is a book called 'Flatland' or 'flat land' that you
RT>> might want to read (I've never seen it, and I'm not sure who
RT>> wrote it though).
RC> _Flatland: a Romance of Many Dimensions_ was written by Edwin
RC> Abbot.
RC> You might also look for a sequel of sorts, by Dionys Burger,
RC> which is entitled, _Sphereland: a Fantasy About Curved Spaces_.
Thanks for the titles/authors. But how do you know that religious faith
is no
more than wishful thinking? Have you ever had religious faith?
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Robert Curry
Sub: communication
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:02:00
--------
EID:bcda 1cf21840
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f1a4
REPLY: 1:3603/210.2 5536856c
PID: GED G1219
Hello Robert!
Saturday July 16 1994 07:58, Robert Curry wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
RC> Oh, shit. Not this pointless argument again!
RC> A person who does not believe in the existence of a god or
RC> gods.
RC> Since that's what most atheists mean, why not accept it?
Sorry. I haven't been around here long. As for this argument, I am happy
to
drop it. I'm not sure why I bothered to argue about it, since I don't really
care. I think that perhaps both kinds of athiests exist, though. (Believing
that no God(dess)(e)(s) exists vs. not believing in the supernatural.)
either
way, you are right, it is pretty trivial.
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Zaynab Richmond
Sub: Nag Hammadi
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:06:36
--------
EID:97d8 1cf218c0
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f228
PID: GED G1219
Hello Zaynab!
Saturday July 16 1994 11:58, Zaynab Richmond wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
ZR> I am also reading them and was surprised to see this subject line
ZR> in the echo... I picked up the book while looking for information
ZR> on the Dead Sea Scrolls... and am using it while researching the
ZR> satan concept. It is very interesting indeed!
Glad to hear it! Incidentally, what are you doing the research for (fun,
classes etc...) ?
Ruby Tuesday
---
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Jesse Jones
Sub: Suggestion
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:08:08
--------
EID:cdf5 1cf21900
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f2ad
REPLY: 1:135/71 63094d2e
PID: GED G1219
Hello Jesse!
Saturday July 16 1994 09:16, Jesse Jones wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
RE:FLATLAND
JJ> I haven't read it, or even seen it, but I know someone whose
JJ> cousin saw it on the library shelf once . . . .
I am told by some of the other people here that it is called Flatland, and
is
written by Edwin Abbott. It sounds really interesting, and I do plan on
gett
ing myself a copy as soon as I can find one.
Ruby Tuesday
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Bryan Thorne
Sub: Evolution 1/2
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:11:12
--------
EID:4329 1cf21960
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f3a4
REPLY: 1:153/976 6302618a
PID: GED G1219
Hello Bryan!
Saturday July 16 1994 01:24, Bryan Thorne wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
BT> A theory is a theory and we can debate it til the end of time. We
BT> will in the process maybe learn something about the other theory
BT> and maybe change our view but since none of us were around for
BT> the whole thing we will never know who is really right. It is the
BT> endless debate but I still get a kick out of it.
Yep. At least we think that none of us will be around. (unless you believe
i
n
reincarnation, vampirism, or an afterlife that comes in contact with the
world
of the living). But then again, if you believe in these things, there is
a g
ood chance that you think that you know the answer already.
Ruby Tuesday
---
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--------
From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Sean Mccullough
Sub: sorry
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:14:52
--------
EID:9bb5 1cf219c0
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f43d
PID: GED G1219
Hello Sean!
Um, I accidentally deleted somthing from you before I got a chance to read
it.
Sorry. The subject heading was Christianity. I use 3 different text editors
so I push the wrong buttons sometimes out of habit.
Ruby Tuesday
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From: Ruby Tuesday
To: Sean Mccullough
Sub: prejudices
Date: 18 Jul 94 03:40:02
--------
EID:ac7a 1cf21d00
MSGID: 1:163/335.16 2e29f9c9
PID: GED G1219
Hello Sean!
Saturday July 16 1994 01:27, Sean Mccullough wrote to Ruby Tuesday:
SM> Now are you getting a feeling for why it is that I lose my temper
SM> so often at Christians here on the 'Smoke?? The implantations of
SM> ANY automatic reactions, to people who only differ from you in
SM> matters of religion, into ANY child's head is ABUSE, and anyone
SM> advocating the same is a CHILD ABUSER. Look what it did to YOU!!
I could have done worse. I have never been forced to say that I believed
anyt
hing, although it is awful to see how dissappointed my mother is when I
tell h
er that I don't think that I am a Christian. My parents simply taught me
what
they believed was right. They made a promise when I was baptised to do
so.
What parents would not do their best to teach their child what they believed
i
n? It is part of the Christian religion to have these automatic reactions.
After all, if I truly believed that you would fry in Hell because you did
not
believe in a particular dogma, then it would be my duty to try to save you,
wo
uld it not? And it would be my duty to keep my children from listening
to yo
u as well.
Ruby Tuesday
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: SOOOO?
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:08:32
--------
EID:f2ce 1cf0a100
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2e283f00
REPLY: 1:163/335.16 2e252f95
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Ruby:
In a msg of , Ruby Tuesday writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TA> JM>>>>> If everybody
TA> JM>>>>> practiced homosexuality, the human race would be
TA> JM>>>>> extinct in a mere 100 years or less.
RT> And if everybody decided to be a dentist, we would all starve to death.
RT> If everybody decided to be interior designers...
I know -- that was my point. The above words (i.e. "If everyone practice
d...less") were spoken by Johnny McKinney. I quoted them back to him and
made
a number of "parody-arguments" similar to your dentist counter-argument
that
Johnny didn't even take the time to respond to and dismissed as "bullshit."
RT> The point is, EVERYBODY practicing homosexuality is quite unlikely.
Very true. What's more, unless you assume that everyone is EXCLUSIVELY
h
omosexual, this still doesn't necessarily eliminate population growth entirely
.
RT> As
RT> long as the current percentages stay about the same, I see no problem.
I
f
RT> anything, the human population is growing much too fast.
Agreed. Any ideas as to when it'll hit 6 billion?
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: HOLYSMOKE FAQ - HOLYFAQ.
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:14:32
--------
EID:f7ea 1cf0a1c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2e284036
REPLY: 1:2370/1 86DFB855
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Charlie:
In a msg of , Charlie Ray writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
CR>>> You obviously understand Christian ethics extremely well:) Why,
CR>>> non-Christian could easily prove Rice isn't God with the aid of h
CR>>> personal address, a twelve gauge shotgun, and a magnum load of
CR>>> buckshot:)
QF>> But He wouldn't really be dead. He would just move to another plan
QF>> existence. Prove that he wouldn't.
TA>> Isn't an inverse burden of proof fun?
CR> Actually, you're violating your own standards. What is this, illogic
for
CR> the sake of argument?
Charlie, that's exactly what it is. You'll see this type of argument any
time someone pulls the "I think God exists -- prove he doesn't!" line of
thou
ght.
CR> Shifting of the burden of proof is not an acceptable
CR> line of argument for either side.
I'm relieved to hear that we won't have to go through this kind of a demo
nstration with you. Unfortunately, the people who require the demonstration
a
re typically so daft that they seldom get the point, anyway :(
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Charlie Ray
Sub: logic
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:17:08
--------
EID:1a28 1cf0a220
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2e2840ac
REPLY: 1:2370/1 86DFB857
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Charlie:
In a msg of , Charlie Ray writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TA>> consequent). Like I said in the post, you may argue the initial assump
TA>> with Simon, but with regard to your claim of his hypocrisy, I expect
ei
TA>> very competent explanation of why my post is incorrect, or an apology
t
TA>> for your misunderstanding and your subsequent misplaced accusation.
CR> If you want a response from me on a specific issue, I suggest that you
CR> address your messages to me. I often do not read the entire packet
due t
o
CR> other responsibilities.
Suggestion noted, although you did respond to the message, anyway. Howeve
r, seeing as the message should have come directly before this one, I didn't
t
hink things would get too confused if I pulled a referral. Although not
neces
sarily a great way to get a person's attention directed towards something,
it'
s better (I believe) than posting the same message to multiple people.
---
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Michael Hardy
Sub: tyre
Date: 16 Jul 94 20:18:58
--------
EID:47f1 1cf0a240
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2e284149
REPLY: 1:3625/470 86DF70C3
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Michael:
In a msg of , Michael Hardy writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
->> -- possibly much later :( -- when I have the time. Things are a litt
->> for me right now, as I'm trying to finish my undergraduate degree bef
MH> No problem. I was TYREd of the subject anyway. (Groan)
Perhaps you'd like to pitch in and add comments to the prophecies that Jo
hnny McKinney has presented me with. Actually, what I'd like is for a Christi
an (so he doesn't read the message looking "for the whites of their eyes")
to
explain to Johnny why his prophecy examples aren't very good examples of
proph
ecy. He doesn't seem to (want to?) understand that begging the question
reall
y isn't a very good way to proceed with this issue.
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: All
Sub: time
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:24:02
--------
EID:6944 1cf17300
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2e294035
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day All:
Hmmm...looking over my schedule in the near future, it might be a good id
ea if I leave this forum for a while -- quite often I find myself spending
tim
e here in HOLYSMOKE when I really ought to be finishing up my degree. I
will
continue to download my mail, so I will get around to the backlog eventually
(
maybe sometime in September), but I don't think I'll be reading too much
in he
re (although if Fredric Rice [or anyone else] decides to write that program
fo
r me, I'll obviously respond to those messages).
See y'all in the fall...
---
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From: Chip Ewing
To: Moderator
Sub: Hello
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:53:26
--------
EID:91f7 1cf196a0
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 e297f4d0
PID: timEd-B11
Hello!
With this message, The Track Hound BBS joins the echo. Since I haven't seen
the echo rules, we will wing it, and hope no one here violates the echos'
sense of taste and style......:)
Chip Ewing
Sysop
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Preston Simpson
Sub: Re: Creationist Debating
Date: 19 Jul 94 02:26:04
--------
EID:a096 1cf31340
PS> Subtract from 47 the number 39,
PS> which may be derived
PS> as either the number venerated most by masons, [...]
Huh? 39?
What do you mean it's the "number most venerated by masons"?
Are you sure you're not thinking of the 33 degrees of the Scotish
Rite?
(The vast majority of Masons are not members of either the Scotish or
York rites or any other of the 'supplemental' masonic organizations.)
If the number is from one of the degree rituals or lectures, please
mention which one. (It's not, but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt
anyway...)
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: Pam Cammack
To: Zaynab Richmond
Sub: Baha'i
Date: 17 Jul 94 11:40:00
--------
EID:47ee 1cf15d00
MSGID: 1:352/19@fidonet.org 630b485c
PID: FM 2.02
Hi, Zaynab! I'm here! I got your messages this morning.
Pam
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Phil Morrison
Sub: Small Steps
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:32:28
--------
EID:2029 1cf0b400
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e28645b
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
PM> With this in mind, help me propose a list of the steps
PM> needed for the development of understanding reality.
PM>
PM> 1. We are here, and we are able to think.
PM> 2. There is (or is not) a Creator.
PM> 3. If yes, He reveals Himself unto us.
PM> 4. As the man, Jesus.
PM> 5. Who volumtarily died in our place.
PM> 6. Who rose again.
PM> 7. Who lives forever.
PM> 8. To make intercession for His own people.
PM>
PM> All help will be appreciated.
The only statement you made in reality from your listing above was number
1.
Keep practicing to eliminate the myths below it.
--- Synchronet/Fastecho
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From: Steve Rose
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Causing of the universe
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:34:38
--------
EID:47d6 1cf0b440
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e286470
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e27033e
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
Hello Shelby!
Friday July 15 1994 21:43, Shelby Sherman wrote to John Jeanneault:
JJ>> The "evidence" I have is of a spiritual nature....which is the
JJ>> type of evidence one would expect of a "spiritual entity".
SS>
SS> Please differentiate your spiritual from imagination.
As always, Shelby, you ask the impossible from those fundies. :)
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: evidence???
Date: 16 Jul 94 22:46:30
--------
EID:e2ef 1cf0b5c0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e2863c1
REPLY: 1:123/67 2e2704d6
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
Hello Shelby!
SS> From the New Testament
SS> ========================================================================
SS>
SS> [6] If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut
SS> off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved
SS> off, she should cover her head. [7] A man ought not to cover his head,
SS> since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of
SS> man. [8] For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; [9]
SS> neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
Maggie ought to hang HER head in shame...belonging to a cult like that.
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Charles Baldo
Sub: creation of life
Date: 18 Jul 94 07:56:30
--------
EID:74dd 1cf23f00
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e2a3605
REPLY: 1:2613/206 629795df
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
Friday July 15 1994 20:46, Charles Baldo wrote to Preston Simpson:
CB> of death. My *PERSONAL* relation with Jesus does it for me.
And a one-side relationship at that. Sice there is not actual jaysus to
be yo
ur -buddy and pal.-
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--------
From: Brett McCoy
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: Suggestion
Date: 15 Jul 94 13:14:18
--------
EID:d83c 1cef69c0
PID: TB-Edit 1.10-/PC
MSGID: 1:109/168.6218 2e26a869
REPLY: 1:163/335.16 2e23c1ca
Hi Ruby,
RT> This is a suggestion especially for Christians who are trying in vain
to
RT> explain faith to all of those 'darn atheists'... There is a book called
RT> 'Flatland' or 'flat land' that you might want to read (I've never seen
it
,
RT> and I'm not sure who wrote it though). Somebody I know HAS read it,
and
RT> she says that it is about a whole bunch of creatures who live in a flat
RT> world, then one gets flipped into 3 dimentions for a few seconds. The
RT> creature then goes back and tries to describe it to his fellow
RT> flat-critters but has a really hard time. It's not a religious work
per
RT> se; I think that it was written by a mathmatician.
RT> Anyhooo... I would be interested to see if anybody finds this book,
or ha
s
RT> read it.
I read it a while back. Matter of fact, when I was a kid, I had a babysitter
who told me the story. It was written back in the late 1890's, I believe,
alt
hough the author's name escapes me at the moment (George Abbott or something
l
ike that). AK Dewdny (Mathematical Recreations columnist) wrote a book
a few
years ago that was similar, although he explored his two-dimensional world
in
terms of biological evolution and mechanics. His world, supposedly, had
evolv
ed on a computer, based on cellular automata and artificial life theory.
My w
ife read the whole book, and was very upset to find that it wasn't real.
Brett W. McCoy | "Go not to the Elves for counsel,
bmccoy@cap.gwu.edu | for they will say
Minstrel, Mage, Sage, Wooer of Women, | both yes and no"
and General Friend of All Nature... | -- JRR Tolkien
Brett McCoy.
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: Re: God vs Man
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:45:27
--------
EID:5913 1cf27da0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2b1417
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Ruby Tuesday to Preston Simpson <=-
PS> Not necessarily true. It can be stated that while gods may not be
PS> human in appearance, they do possess some human qualities. Most
PS> of the gods that I know of (including God Himself) fall into this
PS> category, because all of them seem to possess at least one really
PS> human characteristic.
RT> I suppose. But isn't that part of the definition we use for "god"?
RT> Or would you call Nirvana a God? If you do not, then it is because
RT> part of your definition of "god" includes having a personality. If
RT> you say that having a personality counts as a human characteristic,
RT> then your statement "Did you ever notice that mankind models its gods
RT> on itself" (or something like that), is sort of pointless.
RT> Ruby Tuesday
I think that a god without a personality would be rather pointless
to
interact with. And I wouldn't necessarily refer to nirvana as a god of any
sort, merely a different state of existance. Having a personality does not,
IM
O
count in this instance as a human characteristic; I was thinking more along
th
e
lines of pettiness, compassion, etc.
... That tagline is TRUE -> <- That tagline is FALSE
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Ruby Tuesday
Sub: Re: christianity
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:45:28
--------
EID:81e6 1cf27da0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2b1418
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Ruby Tuesday to Preston Simpson <=-
RT> damage. Religious wars have been going on for probably about 5000
RT> years, and even while Christianity has been in existence, it has not
RT> been responsible for all the religious wars.
True, but it has been responsible for many of them in the past two millenia.
RT> Now, the bit about Islam...I did not mean that it was
RT> responsible for more damage than Christianity. I just think that it
RT> is likely to win over so many people in the coming centuries (if we
RT> don't pollute ourselves to death first), that Christianity will no
RT> longer be capapble of large amounts of destruction, since it will be
RT> less of a major religion. Of course, I can't see into the future, so
RT> i don't really know. It's just my guess.
Christianity is, regardless of the number of people who still practice it,
capable of quite a bit of damage yet. Any religion that practices mental
and emotional slavery is capable of that.
... File not found, I'll load something *I* think is interesting.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Richard Rodriguez
Sub: Re: Check It Out...
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:45:28
--------
EID:e264 1cf27da0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2b1419
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Richard Rodriguez to Preston Simpson <=-
-> Not at all. But remember, those who make accusations of homosexuality
-> latent homosexuals themselves.
RR> Is that your only weapon Preston, cause you sure use it quite often...
RR> Sorry to burst your Bubble sweets but this Brother is pure man....
RR> But then again I don't have to prove that to you....You're not my
RR> woman!
Nice cutting and pasting of my material. You neglected to mention that I
didn'
t
say ALL accusers were latent, merely some of them.
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ormat C:?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Ryan Shaw
Sub: Re: COMESOON.TXT
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:45:28
--------
EID:a7c6 1cf27da0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2b141a
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Preston Simpson <=-
RS> Preston Simpson wrote in a message to Marguerite Kendall:
PS> Margie, I'm afraid you've been warned before about posting
PS> tracts in here. I thought you said you'd "learned your
PS> lesson" and were going to "change your attitude."
RS> You forgot that members of the Christian cult are forgiven for their
RS> mistakes. That does not, however, mean that they will not repeat
RS> them. Some belief system. Duh! I should become a Christian
RS> murderer. (Pun intended). Then I could murder Christians, be forgiven,
RS> and _still_ go to the fantasy known as heaven.
But you're forgetting about the desire to sin. Christians
are
suppost to resist the urge to sin. But they fail anyway, simply because
nobody
is perfect.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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--------
From: Preston Simpson
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Christian hate groups on march again
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:45:29
--------
EID:a97a 1cf27da0
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 2e2b141b
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 7949
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Preston Simpson <=-
ps> I sometimes wonder why people such as Nathan continue
ps> to exist, when decent folk are abused and made to suffer.
ps> Surely there must be a reason.
FR> Decent folk don't want to appear negative. When fighting against
FR> fascism, one does not wish to appear fascist. When fighting against
FR> hatred of gays, one doesn't want to appear equally as rabid as the
FR> opposistion.
It's so hard to maintain the moral high ground when one's opponents
are
so damned frustrating. Perhaps I will build some character from this echo.
Yeah, right.
ps> Yup. The evidence I have seen indicates that most, if not all
ps> homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and is not a choice. Now,
ps> if we could get that through some people's heads (perhaps with
ps> a chainsaw), then we might get results.
FR> "Here is Mr. Chain Saw, come to help you learn a little lesson."
Sorry. I'd been spending a lot of time playing Doom when I wrote that.
FR> Sadly, we can't devolve to their level. That the physiology of the
FR> heterosexual and the homosexual has been examined and there is
FR> compelling evidence to describe the reasoning humans exhibit both is
FR> undeniable -- unless one is a total bigot andrefuses to acknowledge
FR> that one is equally as normal as the other.
I am working on a theory that states that Christianity precludes open-
mindedness. Would you agree or disagree with this postulation?
ps> Oh, but the state will force their atheistic, godless evolutionary
ps> garbage on them, and deny those children the right to be forced to
ps> pray in class! Sheesh.
FR> One of the more silly claims Creationists and theocracy-wanna-be's
FR> present, yeah. At some point the Constitutional and civil rights
FR> violations _can_ reach the point where violent self-defense is
FR> mandated. Sadly, the Creationist and "theocracyists" have guns too.
FR> Civil war is a good result.
Well, shoot. (no, not literally...put the gun down, Fred!) The way it looks
right now, the U.S. is falling apart at the seams and extreme measures will
be needed to even begin to restore some semblance of sanity to the country.
But we're not here to discuss politics, so....
ps> Once upon a time, evolution and lack of school prayer used to bother
me.
ps> But it doesn't anymore; a sign, perhaps, that I have gotten over years
ps> of religious indoctrination.
FR> WELCOME BACK!
Gee, thanks. 11 years of Freewill Baptist (what an oxymoron) school training
and being stuck with a fundamentalist for a mother is hard to get over.
FR> This belief that evolution somehow addresses deity is something I
FR> can't understand. It is like claiming that geology addresses deity.
It's another example of the standard Christian polarizing attitude, best
shown by the statement, "If not x, then y."
ps> Let the bigot think what he wants to. So long as he
ps> doesn't force it on anyone, his ignorance is limited to himself.
ps> The minute he wants it established as doctrine, a problem exists.
FR> So says us all, (I will wager one small dollar.) Sitting inside of
a
FR> church and spreading hatred of gays among each other is both faintly
FR> annoying as well as ammusing to me. Parading their hate and launching
FR> laws to limit legal response to 'gay bashing' is quite another.
FR> Have you seen the people in this forum try to defend their
FR> intolerance?
Yup. It's sad. I've seen 'em justify most everything from the murder of
innocents to the spreading of hatred and ignorance.
ps> Well, hell. I guess I'm just a faggy little "nigger
ps> loving" sissy boy who wants to get into women's pants.
FR> <-heh-> You forgot "liberal" and "humanist." }:-}
Well, we can't forget that, can we? I guess I'm a faggy little
"nigger loving" liberal humanist sissy boy who wants to get into women's
pants. Has kind of an interesting ring to it.
... EARTH.EXE corrupted. Run FLOOD.BAT? (y/n)
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Someth