God Damned Fundies!
|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:30:18
EID:b4fa 206b8bc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b3f
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff01a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Germiquet said "Avoiding the Question" to Don Martin,
adding:
JG> How about letting a "newbie" take a shot at this one.
DM> A newbie who has apparently not taken the time to read very much
DM> of this echo before officiously braying more than two dozen posts to
DM> straighten out the various people here, thereby making a terrific
DM> first impression.
JG> I don't try to "straighten out" any people here although I realize
JG> that the way I post may make it seem that way. These are MY PERSONAL
JG> OPINIONS ! They are not ideas that I tell anyone else they have to
JG> believe. "Officiously" I hold no office. I am not a bible scholar which
JG> should be VERY obvious and I don't claim to be. Too many people just
JG> look up bible verses so they can shoot people down in flames
JG> "officially" with a quote from their favorite version of the bible.
I
JG> am not into that. I don't give two hoots whether you agree with me or
JG> not. I calls them as "I" sees em. You ? Believe whatever you choose.
JG> Its fine by me. Hope you afford me the same courtesy.
In other words, you reserve to yourself the right to
shoot off your mouth without the tedious necessity of having
to base your utterances on anything more than the workings
of your imagination. If it is true that you don't give two
hoots whether anybody agrees with you, why bother spewing
the stuff in the first place?
The "courtesy" this sort of verbal masturbation
generally receives is that people will not bother to read
your stuff except for its target possibilities. Have fun.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:38:05
EID:89a0 206b8cc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b40
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313f8804
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston Simpson said "Cult Christianity" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> I have been brooding a bit about this non-issue lately, finding
DM> it somewhat offensive without knowing why. To me, one of the great
PS> I too find it offensive, but I do know why. It seems to insinuate in
a
PS> somewhat subtle way that a person's skin color has something to do
PS> with their personality. In the broadest possible terms this is just
PS> possible; if someone has been horribly discriminated against on the
PS> basis of skin color and has suffered a warping of personality that
PS> would not have otherwise occurred, then one *might* say that that
PS> person's color had an effect on the victim's
PS> personality.
I think that personality types are generated in part by
the culture in which the kid is raised. Consider the
well-known survey in which Caucasian Americans attributed
their good grades to the fact that they were smart, while
Oriental Americans were convinced that their working hard
was responsible. There is a whole lotta space between those
two data points that would result is differences in
self-esteem, attitude, and interests--in short in
differences in personality that might appear to be linked
to the physical type.
DM> think you could say of Calvin that he offers a perfection
DM> rationalization of the faith, and that that is both his great
DM> strength and the greatest damage ever done to Christianity. The
DM> happiest religions are probably the most non-intellectualized.
PS> I agree with you completely. In my mind, the purposes of any religion
PS> with a hierarchy should be as follows (in no particular order):
PS> 1. To provide emotional support for the needy, those who cannot for
PS> some reason or another stand on their own either in day-to-day life
or
PS> under stressful circumstances.
PS> 2. To provide an expression for emotion that would not otherwise exist
PS> in a given culture.
PS> Unfortunately, religion is also used for a third purpose, that being
PS> to control the masses. It is not always used this way, but it
PS> frequently is and it's rather good at it.
PS> Those are the benefits of an emotional brand of religion. Intellectual
PS> religions, IMO, don't serve much of a purpose. Being intellectual,
PS> they appeal best to thinking human beings, and thinking human beings
PS> are, as far as my experience goes, not as likely as the average joe
to
PS> get roped into a religion.
When I speak of Calvin rationalizing Christianity and
the strength of his influence in this country, I did not
mean that the Christians were any good at intellectual
pursuits, just that they attempt to practice them. Notice
that the fundies here invariably respond with chapter and
verse for the Bible (a simulation of rationality) when asked
for evidence. It is only when the hope of rationality is
stripped from them that they give themselves over to the
pure emotionalism of shrieking "IS NOT!"
PS> Therefore, IMO, intellectual religions are
PS> very nearly oxymorons and self-defeating. Religion shouldn't be about
PS> thinking your way into a state of religious bliss. It's about providing
PS> a release, even for a little while, from what Shakespeare referred to
PS> as the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
The consolation is appealing.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:54:01
EID:7ce0 206b9ec0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b41
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3141d87f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Andrew Masten said "Evidence" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
DC> never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
DC> the non-believers.
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
No, but one named Paul Hill recently carried the day in
a theological dispute with an abortionist by using a
12-guage shotgun. The word "sword" above is a metaphor for
the exercise of force in general, I suspect. Ceppa's
observation also covers the doings of the Inquisition, and
they never used swords at all.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:58:42
EID:efcb 206b9f40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b42
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan Ceppa said "Marines, etc." to Don Martin,
adding:
JB> my granddaughters again until Jordan is in school and Holly will be
at
DM> At our age, four years is just the instant from one set
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
DC> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DC> Going soft on sentiment, you old curmudgeon?
DC> After all, turn-about is most definitely fair play! :)
Some of us are only human, your deityship.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:00:51
EID:573f 206ba000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b43
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31427E3D
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Mark Barnett said "Angel Fundy" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
DC> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
DC>You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
DC>any evidence for that, too?
MB> Well What Kind of evidence do you whant. You will find that any
MB> evidence that you find or that I find we will have points in them that
MB> we will disagree on the truth of it.
MB> Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
MB> biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
MB> These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest
MB> and the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and finaly the flood
MB> is talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say that a "God"
MB> caused a flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man and his familly
MB> and that he build a great boat and save animals and his family. and
MB> that when the flood was over he made a scriface to God.
MB> The main evidence I have is in the value I place in the book. I could
MB> also state that there as been a lot of Archaeological Evidence for
MB> that other Items in this Book. So I will say that I belive and I will
MB> try and get so evidence that you will find acceptable and get back to
MB> you.
MB> What do you belive in?
Others have got this; you might as well:
Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
of the Noachan Flood. It avoids the problem of "how can there be
physical evidence for a spiritual being?" by focussing on one
instance in which that spiritual being supposedly interacted
physically with the physical world in a way that would have
produced distinctive physical consequences. While we have seen
fundies claim that their god is so deceitful as to cover his
tracks, I, for one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.
I do not concern myself here with the issue of the needed
two additional hydrospheres of water and its drainage out of
earth's gravity well, nor with the necessary consequences
resulting therefrom by operation of the laws of physics: the
atmospheric pressure resulting from a "vapor canopy" that would
prevent the existence of life as we know it, the heat release
from the condensation of that much water that would be
sufficient to melt lead anywhere in the atmosphere, etc. are
very serious impediments to the veracity of the story, but most,
if not all, fundies lack sufficient knowledge of physics to be
able to follow the reasoning. It only confuses them, leading
them to drag out yet another version of the Deceitful God, who,
they claim, sets the laws of physics aside his wonders to
perform. Instead, I simply take the Genesis account at its face
value, looking at the effects that much water falling at that
rate would inescapably have upon the face of the earth.
We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
rainfall per minute.
I would think that "gullywasher" fails to do this rate
justice, inasmuch as that term is applied to rainfalls of one or
two inches per hour. Suffice it to say that this rain would wash
away pretty much any particles smaller than Volkswagens and
deposit all of this in a single stratum covering the low-lying
areas world-wide.
We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
area on earth with its thickness varying in inverse proportion
to altitude), and we further know from the mechanics of
disposition of suspended solids in fluids the type and extent of
the stratum that would be laid down by a global flood. Those
larger particles would lie at the bottom of the stratum, with
progressively smaller bits covering them. In addition to that,
the contents of that stratum, the remains of ALL creatures
mingled together under optimal conditions for fossilization
(heavy sedimentation at great depths, with the finest materials
thickly sealing the top) are known: in short, a universal unique
event would produce a universal unique outcome--a stratum like
no other in the geologic column.
Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
a black hole.
So show us this stratum. That would be evidence.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:11:48
EID:ac24 206ba160
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b44
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 638d886b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt said "Cult Christianity" to Don Martin,
adding:
JH> It's no coincidence that the civil rights movement and it's
JH> leadership came out of the 'Black Church'. There was no other
JH> framework in place for organization.
Unlike the nests of white trash snake handlers, a
user-friendly environment. . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:18:12
EID:1b2d 206c0a40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcb
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141e629
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Katherine and David were killing time yakking about TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE
C:
DW> 08 Mar 96 17:27, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> SA>> chocolate pie with you when he gets it from Lynda...
DW>> He can have the whole damn thing. I've already said I'm not eating
DW>> anything she cooks. :)
KW> Coward.
DW> That shit ain't a-gonna work either, sweet-cheeks. :)
DW> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male scum
DW> - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't phase those
DW> of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
Real southern male, eh?
Ok....let's see....
How about if we offer you a MOON pie, and serve it in the back of a pick-up
truck after a lovely afternoon mud-riding. We'll even let your favorite
hound
dog lick it first. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Do Alabama babies have a southern drool?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:41:07
EID:44c8 206c0d20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcc
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3143BEDB
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dawn and Mark were killing time yakking about Angel Fundy:
DK>. I suppose in the next few days I'll see 2,000 questions from
DK>lurkers like Dan Ceppa and J.j. Hitt wanting to know who my SOURCES are
and
Lurkers? Dan Ceppa and J.J. Hitt?? LURKERS?!?!? What echo are YOU on?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Epitaph: So then I says, "How do I know you're the real angel of death?"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:51:57
EID:52c2 206c0e60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcd
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d71
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Jim were killing time yakking about DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
DC> That wasn't there, until about 1954. The original pledge read, "...
DC> one Nation, with Libery and Justice for all." McCarthy and his
DC> communist witch hunt had the "under god" inserted there. Pretty
DC> much the same reason that our money says, "in god we trust".
JG> Interesting, thanks for the history lesson :-)
JG> Having said that however, I am sure that many Americans would agree
JG> that there is a "spirit of god" within the hearts of many Americans.
Sure -- and in some Canadians, Mexicans, Germans, Englishmen, South Africans,
Australians, Koreans, Transylvanians, etc, etc, etc. There is nothing
INHERENTLY Christian about the United States.
JG> Having the freedom to admit that without fear of persecution has its
JG> good points and its bad points. The good point is that you can do it
JG> openly. The bad point is that you can also just use it as a label to
JG> impress people .
And labelling ourselves as a "Christian" nation, has also led to the arrogant
assumption that other countries AREN'T Christian, and therefore automatically
in the wrong in any dispute. By labelling ourselves a Christian nation,
we
are suggesting that "God is on OUR side". It makes it very easy to justify
whatever we do to nonchristian "enemies" -- be it placing Japanese-Americans
into concentration camps, shoving American Indians into the most desolate
portions of our country, burning villages in Vietnam, or bombing civilian
targets in Iraq. We can even justify our actions against other Christian
enemies -- because as long as they don't practice our peculiar American
brand
of Christianity, they aren't "true" Christians, so it's ok.
Certainly, we aren't the first to raise the banner of Christ in an effort
to
lend credence to political goals -- but as a country founded on the ideals
of
freedom for ALL, we should know better. It is an insult, both to the US
Constitution, and to the ideals of Christianity.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "It's time you learned that freedom is never a gift." -- Kirk
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:05:29
EID:a889 206c10a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edce
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31420ca8
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and David were killing time yakking about drool game:
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
DW> I'll give $20 to whoever makes Mikey leave for a month.
I think I get it -- Michael has to leave for a month, and he doesn't want
anyone here thinking they "ran him out", so he's controlling his exit.
This sort of reminds me of Willy Wonka's contest -- which reminds me of
chocolate -- which reminds me of....YOU!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Anti-Mickeys of the world: Unite
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:17:01
EID:a138 206c1220
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcf
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314208eb
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about Hello!:
DW> 08 Mar 96 22:29, Annette Spence wrote to Karen Davis:
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument...
DW> Remember when you though Annette was a "good" xtian?
:) So, she's mistaken -- I still like her. (Or to be more accurate, I haven't
read enough lately to have any negative feelings about her)
But, yeah, if I hadn't been in such a hurry when I scanned that, I would
have
typed up my initial response, which was "Ohhh, Annette, Noooooo!!!!!!"
But
it was too late anyway. Having already driven over the cliff, it was far
to
late for me to warn her to apply the brakes.
DW> I just had to rub your nose in it. :)
haha! I'm having a hard time feeling shamefaced about having my nosed
rubbed in it for giving someone the benefit of the doubt. If I'm going
to
be wrong, THAT'S the side I want to fall on.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A point of view is a matter of perspective...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: jim staal
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:25:30
EID:d029 206c1320
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd0
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31432fde
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Kevin and Mark were killing time yakking about jim staal:
-
MS> JB> I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My condolences
MS> JB> to you and your family. It is never easy to lose someone you
MS> JB> love.
MS> Thank you very much, It is very much appreciated.
MS> Hopefully no one will take this in the wrong way and ridicule
MS> you also for showing any sympathy in this matter.
KDM> I doubt it. We may be assholes, but we aren't cruel.
MS> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
MS> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
MS> George and the rice brothers.
What have the Rice bros. said to you about this? The only negative post
I've
seen regarding your father's death has come from George.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Mere life is not victory, mere death is not defeat.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:30:18
EID:97b8 206c13c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd1
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31420d09
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and David were killing time yakking about legislation:
MH> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
DW> Are you claiming Hammurabi was a god, Mikey? So much for you being a
DW> Christian.
DW> Would someone *not* in Mikey's twit filter please forward this to him?
DW> Thanks.
That depends. If this message winds up being forwarded by the Top Secret
Drool Winner, and results in Mike leaving for a month, will you still pay
the
$20.00, even if it was your words that resulted in his departure?
(If you say yes, every person in this echo is likely to forward him a copy
of
this post)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Please Tell Me if you Don't Get This Message
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Bible and The Bible alone
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:41:38
EID:4700 206c1520
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd2
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe94
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
David and Sue were killing time yakking about The Bible and The Bible alone:
LB>> so I can't see that you have anything to complain about. Nor can
LB>> I see why it should trouble you if I've found friendship instead
LB>> -- that doesn't seem to be what you want anyway.
JS> That you would have to sacrifice Biblical principles to do so is what
JS> would bother me, Lynda.
DW> Which Biblical principles has she sacrificed, Jim-bob?
SA>
SA> Why, she speaks her own mind, and doesn't let hubby do it for her,
SA> like Jimbo's wife does.
"Let"?! I was fortunate enough the second time around to marry a real man
--
it would never occur to him to TRY to do my thinking for me. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "I'm not Picard." - Sisko "How fortunate for me!" - Q
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:21:40
EID:0e8d 206c1aa0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd3
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Steve and Sue were killing time yakking about WHAT??:
SA> Hehehe. Say, it -has- been 10 years already, hasn't it? I'm
SA> surprised I haven't noticed any organised whinging about how
SA> dangerous space travel is, how NASA should be done away with, how
SA> we shouldn't waste money and possibly lives on trying to reach for
SA> the stars. Not that it matters much, anwyay - seems like all the
Oh, it's there, alright. NASA has been very hard hit by the government
cut
backs. It slows things down, but it is also forcing them to run things
more
like a business -- and to turn over financial responsibility for many of
their
projects to those who will ultimately benefit by them -- private industry.
SA> guts have been taken out of NASA since that one stupid little
SA> explosion. All they seem to do anymore is dippy-do "experiments"
SA> that don't seem to reveal much of anything at all .. hacking up
They aren't as exciting as the old days of breathlessly watching the Apollo
missions, but those dippy-do experiments are making improvements in our
daily
life most of us will never know about -- and in far more practical ways
then
just getting a thrill at rooting for "our" side in the Space Race. I have
a
file around here somewhere of the benefits NASA has helped bring about in
the
last couple of years. It's pretty long, and encompasses everything from
telecommunications, to medicine, to business efficiency. The heart hasn't
been taken out of NASA -- it has simply matured past its adolescence.
SA> mice that've been in space a mere week is nothing compared to
SA> studying the after-effects of Russians being on Mir for months at
SA> a time.
And one of the BEST things that is happening to NASA is that it is slowly
coming out of it's need to COMPETE with other countries' space programs
-- we
are beginning to realize that what Mir learns is good for us -- and sharing
what we know is good for us, too.
SA> What happened to the boldness of the Apollo project? So some
The Evil Empire toppled -- we no longer see every mission as being the final
bastion of democracy against the forces of communism.
SA> silly civilian died - big deal. She knew it might be dangerous
SA> when she went up - if she didn't, she was too dumb to be a
SA> teacher, anwyay. The character Q from ST:TNG probably said it
I'm not sure why you feel the need to put down McAuliffe in order to make
your
point -- you are right, one civilian death, while sad, does NOT mean that
exploration should stop. The exploration of space has been far less hazardous
then the exploration of our continent ever was. However, McAuliffe is not
to
blame for those who would stick their heads in the sand and insist we don't
continue in the attempt. She WAS aware of the risk -- as was her family
and students. She was interviewed shortly before the launch and said as
much.
I believe that if she could have done it again, she would have -- even knowing.
SA> even 10 years on. Granted, I have no say in how much money NASA
SA> gets; but I certainly wouldn't mind having my taxes go towards
SA> contribution towards a joint international space project of a more
SA> grandiose sort. I want to see a REAL space station/dock in my
SA> lifetime, damnit.
I'm in absolute agreement with you there! Unfortunately, you and I are
probably already too old to be allowed to actually GO -- but I'd like to
get
a phone call from my grandkids in space. :)
SA> I don't remember any of the moon landings; I
SA> was too young. I did, however, skip school (with mom's
SA> permission) to witness the first shuttle launch, and I still
SA> remmeber how exciting and hopeful it all was. There's risk in
Wow -- for some reason I thought you were my age. I remember the moon walk,
although I was a tad young to really understand the significance of it.
More emotionally riveting was the Apollo 13 thing, which my parents let
me
stay up to watch (I could no more have slept knowing that drama was taking
overhead than I could have flown up there to save them myself).
I was pregnant with my first daughter during the first shuttle mission --
after such a LONG absence from space, this was the most exciting thing I'd
seen in years. And even more profound than the launch (which was similar
to
the old launches, therefore not as "new") was the landing! We could go
into
space and come back normally -- not just toss our astronauts and all the
hardware into the ocean. That seemed like a real turning point for me.
The problem is, it looks like a very large, fast airplane when it lands.
It's ...boring. (To some -- I'm still fascinated) So NASA doesn't get the
airtime, until they have an accident, or lose a satellite. Funny, but
isn't that just like the railways (which used to be romantic and exciting),
or airflight (which used to be romantic and exciting)? When something becomes
a real part of our lives -- useful rather than glamourous -- we stop seeing
it, until it messes up.
So, as much as I miss the "old days" -- the days of dreaming about being
an
astronaut, the days when they were "heros" simply for getting to go,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: [2/2] WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:47:55
EID:4a82 206c15e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd4
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 2 of 2...
I'm kind of glad that it's gotten dull. It means that they can dig in and
do some real work instead of hitting golf balls on the moon, and scripting
patriotic patter for the astronauts to say. It means that they probably
WILL
eventually make it possible for my grandkids to break orbit.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A centipede is an ant made to government specs.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:51:26
EID:4e7f 20696e60
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 31431f94
Hi George...
On 07 Mar 96 10:44:37, George Rudzinski penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
GR> Where have you been? It appears like I haven't seen you post in quite
GR> awhile.
I have a life... B-})
I'm in the middle of a genealogy project as well as some other
things. I haven't time to read HS much, although I get on the
IRC channel fairly regularly. There are just too many messages
to read many of them these days!
Besides... the internet takes up a LOT of time! I'm writing
HTML as well, although my own pages still suck. EMail me if you
want the URLs.
John
... musselj@cadvision.com
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 10 Mar 96 20:20:42
EID:5b0b 206aa280
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b167de66
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA8
On (08 Mar 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Brad Jackson...
-> On 03-06-96 12:17, Brad Jackson got back to Masochistic Maiden
BJ> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
BJ> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
DC> Don't bother, as it closed before the end of the first Act...
That's Steve WINTERS' favorite citation! I wonder if he's here,
posting under a pseudonym!?
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Ed Dutkiewicz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:55:50
EID:8f18 206b46e0
MSGID: 1:236/20.0 314430e6
> ED> As far as dating contemporary things, one does get false
> ED> old ages. For example, the grass near a highway always
> ED> shows that its millions years old, when one uses carbon 14
> ED> dating. This is due to the burning of fossil fuels which
> ED> contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14) dioxide
>+ ED> to carbon-12 dioxide.
> Huh?
> Do you have a reference for this? Carbon-14 isn't an "old" form
> of carbon, it's an UNSTABLE isotope. The older something is, the
> *LESS* C-14 it will contain.
> I'd be very interested in learning where you picked up this
> little tid-bit.
OOPS. You are correct that older organic material hass less carbon-14.
I should have said that the burning of fossil fuels contribute to lower
amount of C-14, which imitates a lower ratio of C(14) to carbon 12, which
gives a false *old age* reading.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: The Play Board (1:236/20)
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|From: Ed Dutkiewicz
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:01:04
EID:3053 206b4820
MSGID: 1:236/20.0 31443220
Dan Ceppa noted:
> ED> example, the grass near a highway always shows that its millions years
> ED> old, when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is due to the burning of
> ED> fossil fuels which contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14)
> ED> dioxide to carbon-12 dioxide.
>Nope, it don't work that way. It would test to be far younger, as
>C-14 breaks down into C-12. A high concentration of C-14 would make
>a sample look far younger than it really is. That's one reason that
>more than one sample test is used, as well as other dating techniques
>to ensure that a proper range exists for the test results.
Ooops, I screwed up on my explanation. I meant to say this:
The older organic material has less carbon-14.
I should have said that the burning of fossil fuels contribute to lower
amount of C-14, which imitates a lower ratio of carbon(14) to carbon 12.
This
CO2 mixture is picked up by the surrounding grass. Therefore the grass is
dated older than it really is.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: The Play Board (1:236/20)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:53:13
EID:fafc 206b9ea0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a519c930
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d69
On (10 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Not so. God "chooses" this limitation. He is not "bound" by it.
JG> He has designed the universe to work this way. God has GIVEN man
JG> freedom of choice.
MB> So he, of his own "free will" chooses a way that will cause
MB> untold pain to billions of human beings, not to mention the
MB> pain that way has caused other life forms. Nice guy, your
MB> god. But I don't think much of his choices.
JG> Perception , perception , perception. You CHOOSE to perceive it in
JG> a negative way. It is like jogging. WHat a stupid thing to do. It
JG> causes you discomfort and pain, you run around in a big circle and
JG> end up in the place you started.
JG> But there ARE benefits of jogging, in terms of health and growth and
JG> even spiritual and emotional well being.
But there are no benefits to natural disasters and the like, and
that's what we are talking about. How handy that you've deleted
the context above, so that fact would get lost. Your god CHOSE
to make a world full of pain and sorrow with no appreciable
benefits. He's an asshole. So, quit changing the context in order
to make him appear to be otherwise.
JG> Yes allowing us to CHOOSE what we do is going to produce "growing
JG> pains", but without growing pains you won't grow. The lifespan of a
JG> man is NOTHING in terms of eternity,The 2 million years we have been
JG> growing is also
JG> nothing in terms of eternity. Just as that 20 minutes of jogging is
JG> nothing in terms of the years of benefits you can recieve by doing it.
You're changing the context again. That's dishonest. Does your
god approve of you lying for his sake? My standards are apparently
higher than your god's, because I DON'T approve of your lying. Not
for a minute.
I am not talking about MY choices; I'm talking about the choice
HE made. He's an asshole, and so are you.
... "Here, fundy, fundy, fundy. Nice fundy...***<<>>***"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:46:01
EID:1376 206bb5c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 3144ad79
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CEB806
-=| On 07 Mar 96 03:03, Al Schroeder said: |=-
AS> Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
:-)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:52:02
EID:bf84 206bb680
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 3144af15
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
-=| On 07 Mar 96 23:01, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
Is it me, Mickey!?!? Huh??? Is it? As an aside, I'd be happy with a little
LD bill. As would Lynne!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 09 Mar 96 14:32:00
EID:7137 20697400
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 228e534e
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Brad Jackson <=-
> BJ> keep people in their sins. Water baptism is the re-birth of Water
> MM> Wouldn't be Church of Christ would you?
> Greetings.
No I don't belong to a church called Christ! I belong to the
> United Pentecostal Church. Of course we do believe in Jesus Christ.
That's your first mistake right there. If Jesus ever existed, he's been
dead for millennia and will remain that way.
> Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Nope.
> Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
> that believeth not shall [be damned].
> For that matter do you know who Jesus is?
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour and supply the poisonous snakes.
> John 10:30 I and [Father are one].
> Some people today don't take the time to read the bible, which is
> God's word. They assume that their Pastor is telling the truth.
All THINKING people assume the Babble is lying, as well as their pastor.
And they are right, as the God of the Bible does NOT exist.
> You must follow up on everything that is be taught to you.
> Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.
> And if the blind [lead the blind], both shall fall into the ditch.
> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
And I would suggest that all Bible believers find a church that is Mark
16:15-18 teaching.
But I know they won't find ANY.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:00:01
EID:86d9 20697800
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 228e534f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6354b467
PID: FM 2.02
> JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to,
> JG> you will see he is making a distinction between "true"
> JG> christians and people who just "call themselves" christians.
> JG> So a true Christian is one who says " I am not going to
> JG> participate in these Crusades because it is against the
> JG> teachings of Christ". The ones who participate in something
> JG> that goes against the teachings of christ might CLAIM they
> "True Americans are those that will not join in voting for that commie
> Clinton and vote for whoever the Republicans put up."
> Does this look anything like your statement above? Does it make any
> more sense?
Not to mention that I can't seem to get these believing idiots to EVER be
able to produce evidence of their historicity in Crusader times!!
NEVER has anyone of fundie Protestant persuasion been able to show that
there were coreligionists of theirs prior to the birth of Ian Hus or Savonarola.
They refer to vague "heretics" in these ages, yes; but when confronted with
the actual beliefs these "heretics" had, they are found to have ONLY the
anti-papal point in common!!
The fact remains: if you believe that an early Roman Imperial era Jew named
Jesus was the very Creator of the Universe, you owe the Papacy the entirety
of your religion (with possible exceptions for certain Ethiopian Christians).
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:36:02
EID:6bb4 2069b480
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 22968d09
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Masochistic Maiden <=-
> NS> foods there for them to eat if they feel inclined to try them. My
> NS> youngest loves brussel sprouts because of this (heh heh heh), but
> NS> then, so do I.
> I should have known my youngest would turn out weird when, at the age
of
> 4, he LOVED liver and onions (and still does). And at the age of 8 we
> took
> him to a new fancy restaurant downtown (he's always had good manners).
> He
> saw escargot on the menu and wanted some. We tried to discourage
> him...even
> telling him it was snails...because they were fairly expensive. Then we
> figured we'd let him find out for himself.
> He loved them. So that became his special birthday food.
Here, Judith!! Have some Haggis!! :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:40:00
EID:ea39 206a6500
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442723
A lone voice in the wilderness, Michael mournfully howled out "animal abortions"
RS> This is clearly illustrated here in the Pacific Northwest. The timber
RS> battle has once again resurfaced after our wonderful congress in
RS> Washington D.C. tacked on a salvage timber rider to another bill. Of
RS> course the president signed it because the main bill was very important
RS> [this is where a line item veto would come in handy]. It basically
RS> allows timber companies to cut much more than before, wiping out the
RS> forests for centuries to come.
MH> You're comparing apples and pomegranates. I support environmental
MH> protection. You're absolutely right, maintaining the ecosystem is
MH> vitally important to our own survival.
MH> However, that's not the same as holding that every *individual*
MH> animal is of vital importance. What you do with your cat's fetuses
MH> isn't important to the overall health of the cat family. If your cat
MH> were one of the last seven on the planet, it would.
Not every human is vital to human survival, either, Mike. We
already have almost 6 billion of 'em, and a great majority of them
never realise their potential as it is. It's no good saying that
such and such a fetus might be the next Einstein - the next
Einstein could very well be some half-starved kid in Africa,
who was already born 6 years ago, but simply never had any
educational opportunities to let his mind grow enough (nor enough
food to keep it from stunting.) We don't need more humans,
either; we'd be much better off cultivating the humans that are
already here, rather than worrying about what might happen in the
future with some zygote.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Atheistgate 1
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:57:01
EID:8943 206a6720
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442724
A lone voice in the wilderness, Gwenny mournfully howled out "Atheistgate
1"
->> group of followers had forsaken family and fortune.(16) After a
->> dramatic march on the capital, Jesus was suddenly
->> arrested and executed.
Hwy, Gwenny. Just came across this message - you've probably
heard most of it from others, but hey. I can't spend ALL my time
reading mail. :)
GtP> This reminded me of a show I watched last night on TLC. It was an
GtP> episode of Ancient Worlds entitled "Secrets of the Templar". The
This was an old BBC documentary, made by Baigent and Leigh, before
their book (with Henry Lincoln) "Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"
was published. I first saw the doco last year, but I've read the
book (and its follow-up) several times, so I'm familiar with their
ideas.
GtP> narrator made an interesting case for the Grail actually being the
GtP> bloodline of Jesus. He said that Jesus was alledgedly a direct
GtP> descendent of King David. He indicated that what Jesus's followers
GtP> saw in him was the ACTUAL king of the Jews, come to free them. He
GtP> recounts the legend that Mary of Magdalene brought the "sangreal" to
GtP> France. What if, he asked, sangreal was NOT san greal, the holy cup,
GtP> but sang real, the royal blood. So that what Mary ACTUALLY had was
GtP> the unborn son of Jesus. (Given that "grail" or cauldron is
GtP> frequently a pagan symbol for womb, esp. the womb of the Great Mother,
GtP> it could work) (Great! Even the ancient myth writers are punsters.
Yes; that was probably the most likely story I've heard about such
events yet. In the first book, it also suggests that the
mysterious Barrabas, who was released instead of Jesus, might have
been Jesus' heir as well. After all, why the hell should the same
Jews, who just days before were singing "Hosannas to the Son of
David" to Jesus, suddenly want him killed? Better to sacrifice
the King than his bloodline. And the bible never says who the
heck Barrabas was, probably for that very reason. Their thesis is
that most of the new testament has been edited and garbled
severely, with just hints and suggestions at what really went on
left over. Especially the touchier subjects - touchy, at least,
to the Romans and other Gentiles.
It also gives an account of Thomas - which, in Hebrew, means Twin.
He was also called Thomas Didymos - the latter word ALSO being
Greek for "Twin". Why call someone "Twin Twin"? Whose twin was
he? The painting The Last Supper, gives the clue. Look at it,
and you'll find Thomas looks EXACTLY like Jesus in that depiction
(and the painter, you will find if you read the book, was
supposedly mixed up with the mysterious Prieure de Sion, the
alleged keepers of the secret.
) He speculates that the REAL treasure of the Templars was the knowledge
GtP> that they were protecting the royal family of the line of King David.
There's actually more detail than that in the book, as well,
tracing the lineage through the lost Merovingian kings, with a
focus on Dagobert II, who was for some obscure (or is it?) reason
betrayed and killed by the Vatican, even though he himself was
Catholic, and not known to be a heritic. Also, the Merovingians,
all of them, were said to have "special powers" amongst their
subjects in France, including healing by the laying on of hands
(sound familiar?) The original king, Merovee, was said to have
had mysterious origins, including a sire from "across the sea",
represented by a mythical beast which has never been identified in
any other lore.
GtP> An interesting twist on this whole story is that there are those who
GtP> say that Mary of Magdalen was a priestess of Asarte (and with Mary
the
GtP> mother, she could represent the Goddess with Jesus as her son/lover).
GtP> Certainly, Solomon is traditionally one of the greatest magicians of
GtP> all time (and, damn, that COULD lend credence to the Masonic claim
GtP> that they trace their rituals back to Solomon's time). How ironic
if
GtP> what the fundies are ACTUALLY worshipping is the bloodline of the
GtP> lover/son/magician/king of the Goddess.
I don't remember any mention of this about the Magdalen, but the
book suggested she was only _called_ a whore by disciples who were
jealous of her, because she commanded Jesus' attention. It also
makes a good case that the wedding at Cana was that of Jesus and
Mary, and that the several Marys (excluding his mom) - Magdalen,
Mary of Bethany, etc - were one and the same. It also points out
that Jesus treated Mary very much like a wife, including making
her wait inside her mother's house until he bid her presence.
GtP> Anyway, the narrator contended that some group called the Priory of
GtP> Sion (which may have founded the Templars and had such illustrious
GtP> folk as Leonardo de Vinci as a member) existed into the current
GtP> century to protect the still existing bloodline of the Christos....the
GtP> Anointed King of Israel. Scary.
This was the more interesting theme of the first book, and was
followed up in the sequel, "The Messianic Legacy". At the end of
Book the Second, even the authors, however, have their doubts
whether or not the whole thing was a hoax. After all, the Prieure
seems to disappear several centuries ago, only to resurface (in
the form of publications in France hinting of a "mystery" in the
town of Rennes-les-Chateau, among other things) in the 1950s, and
then disappearing again with the resignation of M. Plantard from
the leadership of the Prieure in 1982. I would like to get these
authors' addresses, and see if they've dug anything new up on the
subject since then, though. I don't really buy into conspiracy
theories, but it's interesting, nonetheless.
And a more accurate goal of theirs would be to say that they wish
to restore the Merovingian kingly line to the throne of France
(and perhaps all of Europe); it just follows that the Merovingians
are believed, by the Preiure and the authors, to be able to trace
their bloodlines back through Jesus to David. The really
unnerving thing is the actual political machinations involved,
though it doesn't seem very likely to ever happen, M. Plantard's
veiled comments aside.
GtP> Actually, this is alot easier to believe that Jesus had a wife and
GtP> there are still direct descendents of him alive than the idea that
GtP> Jesus was some god.
Shit, even some extraordinarily rich, politically powerful, and
1,000 year old shadow organisation that was the force behind the
Templars before their split in .. 1099 (?) is more believable than
dead men walking.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Et in Arcadia ego ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: HI
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:04:02
EID:8d2b 206b0080
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442725
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve mournfully howled out "HI"
SA> The reverse is also true. [ref: SA] ;-)
SA> Whenever Sue Armstrong gets quoted, I instinctively go "WHAT?!
SA> I never said THAT!" :-D
SQ> Wait till you have a wife who shares your initials, and you're having
SQ> an e-mail conversation, trying to figure out who said what. :)
What's worse is, there are THREE SA's here. I didn't notice Sue
Alexander for the first little while, until I actually stopped to
read the posts I thought were mine, and realised something was
amiss. :\
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "Death is the cure of all diseases." -- Browne
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:10:03
EID:724f 206b0140
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442726
A lone voice in the wilderness, Gwenny mournfully howled out "Holiday Greetings..."
SW> Opinions vary, Let me ask you this then; What would it take to get you
SW> to believe? If the only way your gonna believe is through "scientific
SW> evidence" (so called anyway), then you have let the devil cheat you
out
SW> of your right to salvation.
GtP> My kidnapped daughter back in my arms by the end of the week and my
GtP> husband having a new job by Tuesday making at least 55K a year.
Good stuff. I think I'll order 20/20 vision (both eyes, with
possible repair of the left visual centre of my brain, if
necessary) and full-time work in my chosen field by the end of the
month. Not too much to ask for, and plenty if time to deliver.
Let's see if Stevie's big pink pixie in the sky can evidence
himself this way. Hey, this same diety supposedly "heals" all
those folks on the Benny Hinn show ...
I take it you didn't get yours, though, so I'm not going to hold
my breath.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Perot, Bush and Quayle: The millionaire, the skipper and Gilligan
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:30:04
EID:5ef8 206b03c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442727
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Staal
shows his colon..."
SQ> Let me guess: Harrison Ford said "The horror...the horror," right?
DC> No, that was said by Les Nessman.
I thought he was the one who said "Oh, the humanity!" :)
DC> ... "Honest to God, Big Guy, I thought turkeys could fly..." Herb
Tarlick
I recieved a lot of confused corrections over this over on
Evolution every time I used it (and you must have stolen the line
from the same place I did.) I corrected my tag to keep the folks
on Evolution from arguing about it for three weeks every time I
used it, as follows.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... As God is my witness .. I thought turkeys could fly! - Arthur Carlson
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: What the ???
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:49:05
EID:e595 206b0620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442728
A lone voice in the wilderness, Karl mournfully howled out "What the ???"
GTP>This is the Religious Food Fight Echo....grab a pie or duck.
KS> The duck was far tastier than the pie.
KS> But it was pretty good, too.
Hell, this is better than the food fights I remember at cadet
camp - and you don't get punishd for hitting MPs in the head with
boiled potatoes here, either. :)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "You do that one more time and I'm going to kick you in the ass" -PET
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [1/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:06
EID:edc5 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442729
>>> Part 1 of 3...
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve mournfully howled out "more Dan A.
Post"
RB> Anything in Revelation about airplanes? Or computers? Or
RB> telephones? But it got this 'mark in the hand' thing right,
RB> huh? Profound man, profound.
SW>
SW> There are tons of signs written in the Bible that point to the return
SW> of Christ to this world. (Time is short...)
All you've done is give strong evidence that you have no reading
comprehension.
SW> 1. Horseless carriages (cars) =Nahum 2:3,4 "The shields of his
SW> soldiers are red; the warriors are clad in scarlet. The metal on the
SW> chariots flashes on the day they are made ready; the spears of pine
are
SW> brandished. The chariots storm through the streets, rushing back and
Since when have cars been equipped with pine spears? Since when
are all cars red? I prefer metallic black cars myself, though
both that I've owned have been dark blue.
SW> forth through the squares. They look like flaming torches; they dart
They only look like "flaming torches" because of the line above,
which indicates that the chariots were red, and the drivers of
same were also clad in red.
SW> about like lightning."
To folks who've never seen real speed, a horse running at top
speed is "like lightning." When cars first came out, alarmed
folks demanded that the speed limit be capped at a whopping 15
mph, and even THAT was too quick for their blood. Trains of the
19th century didn't travel much faster, yet folk thought train
travel extremely zippy. A horse's top speed is 45 mph, though of
course, it can't keep that speed for long, and only those in
extreme haste ever pushed their animals that fast in the first
place.
SW> 2. Airplanes = (Isaiah 31:5) "Like birds hovering overhead, the Lord
SW> Almighty will shield Jerusalem; He will shield it and deliver it. He
SW> will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."
Your god is an airplane? Doesn't sound like planes to me; sounds
more like simple literary license, that in fact recalls the imagry
of the Egyptian god Nut, who represented the sky and was always
depicted as a man with long arms and legs covering the Earth.
SW> 3. The dessert blossoming as a rose (Isaiah 35:1) "The desert and the
SW> parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom..."
Psst -- deserts aren't blooming. In fact, desertification has
been increasing for the past 5,000 years or so, mostly due to
human activity. The Sahara, especially, has been widening its
extent steadily with no sign of shrinking or blossoming any time
soon, and much of the Middle East is drier than a Mormon bar. Not
to mention the fact that the deserts of the Southwestern US are
ALSO growing, and arable land in Australia continues to shrink
steadily as well.
Since I don't have an OT handy, and can't look up exactly what
these things say, I'll just take your comments of the next three
at face value.
SW> 4. The alignment of a ten-nation western confederacy (Daniel 2,7)
Er, the EC now has more than 10 member countries, Steve, and it
has for quite a few years now.
Also, countries/nation-states/city-states have always sought even
temporary confederacies in times of need.
SW> 5. The knowledge explosion (Daniel 12:4)
Knowledge has been "exploding" since the invention of writing,
though it's had false starts, sidetracks, and censorship along the
way, mostly due to close-minded Christians burning books and
censoring everything in sight.
SW> 6. Great increases in travel (Daniel 12:4)
Travel has also been "greatly increasing" over time. I'm sure
that Europeans of the 16th century thought travel was "greatly
increasing" with the colonisation of North America, and proceeded
apace once Botany Bay was "founded" a little over 200 years ago.
The invention of mercantile ships, and the increase of Greek
commerce and Roman exploration and conquest would have also
spurred a great deal of travel (to contemporary minds) long before
Jesus' time.
SW> 7. False Christs, and false prophets (Matthew 24:5,24 & 2 Peter 2:1)
And who might these be? All monotheistic beliefs say that anyone
else who speaks differently is a "false prophet". And heretics
have been burned by orthodox Christianity for over 1,000 years;
everyone from the Albigensians, Cathars, and Arians to the Knights
Templar have been accused of this and roasted.
SW> 8. Wars and rumers of wars (mark 13:7)
There have ALWAYS been wars (and rumours of same) ever since men
first started bashing other groups of men over the head with
clubs. Go read up on general world history, and see just how many
wars (both local and more wide-ranging) have been fought through
recorded time.
Besides, I notice Mark was smart enough to give himself a loophole
here, and say "don't worry, be happy. The wars are necessary, but
hey, it isn't the end yet."
SW> 9. famines, earthquakes in divers places, pestalences (Luke 21:11)
There've always been those, too. Earthquakes are simply caused by
the Earth's crust moving about. Famines are also natural,
cyclical occurrances when the weather or overused land fails to
yeild crops or enough food to gather and animals are overhunted or
die due to drought. Pestilence has always been with us as well,
even moreso than now. Ever hear of the Black Death? Killed 1/3
of the population of Europe about 500-600 years ago.
SW> 10. Iniquity abounding (Matthew 24:12)
All it says here is that "Because iniquity abounds, the love of
many shall wax cold". I'd like to know when "iniquity" DIDN'T
abound in human affairs.
SW> 11. The Gospel of the Kingdom preached to all the world (Matthew
SW> 24:14)
Not all the world wants to hear it, though. Notice that many
nations (especially non-Westernised ones) have kept their own
religious ways, despite the best efforts of missionaries at their
attempts of cultural homogenisation. Even modern Japan is still
primiarily Shinto and Buddhist. I doubt the !Kung people have
much use for your Jesus, either. There are also Indian tribes
still extant in South America who've never heard your gospel,
either, and would likely laugh at the quaint little stories the
preachers tell them if they did. These folk are quite happy the
way they are and would probably be worse off with your little
war-god and his contradictory "son".
SW> 12. Signs in the sun, moon and stars (luke 17:26-30, 21:25-27)
What sorts of "signs"? Are you a believer of astrology, then?
I notice that Luke 21:25 says "..the sea and the waves roaring".
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [2/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:07
EID:a9c5 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3144272a
>>> Part 2 of 3...
The sea and it's waves ALWAYS roar to some extent. Haven't you
ever seen an ocean? I've seen the Atlantic (from both sides), the
Aegean, the Mediterranian, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific
(from both sides). They ALWAYS roar. And just ask someone who
has lived near the Bay of Fundy if the sea "roars" - especially
with its famous tide comes in.
SW> 9. the introduction of evil spirits which control cults and false
SW> religions (1 Timothy 4:1,2)
Like Christianity?
SW> 10. The nineteen signs of 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Let's see what these are ...
"For men shall be lovers of their own selves" - that's always been
so; self-interest is a natural phenomenon, the prerequisite to the
survival instinct. Granted, as civilisation grows, self-interest
can be seen to be detrimental, which is why socialism and
communism were thought up in the first place (though oftimes
abused and taken advantage of by leaders with THEIR own
self-interest in mind.)
"boasters, proud" - Also a common, natural trait in humanity.
Just as the fox proudly brings his catch home to his mate and
kits, so men say "Look what I did!" And if one _has_ done
something worthy, he is well within his rights to be proud and
boast a bit, so long as his boasting doesn't get tiresome to
others and his pride hinder him from continuing to do well.
"blashphemers" - Especially with monotheistic religions, ANYONE
who doesn't toe the party line down to the last jot and tittle is
considered a "blasphemer"; this charge has been applied for
centuries to those with dissenting views.
"disobedient to parents" - It is a rite of passage that as
children grow, they begin to assert their individuality more and
more - this process, in fact, begins about age 2 (or sooner,
especially after the little rugrat learns that S/HE can use the
word "no", too.) And kids growing up before the 20th century grew
up much faster than children do now; not chronologically, but they
were burdened with much more responsibility than children are now,
and were forced to think and take care of themselves earlier than
they are in Western society of today. Many Indian tribes,
particularly the Hurons, were very indulgent with children, and
never hit them, and such children were trusted to play alone in
the forests safely. If you haven't seen it yet, I suggest you get
a hold of a copy of the Botswanan film "The Gods Must Be Crazy 2",
for a look at how children can handle themselves in emergency
situations if allowed to - and taught to - think, act, and care
for themselves when needs be. Granted, the kids get themselves in
a bit of a mess, but Western children would never survive such an
ordeal, being maturationally handicapped by our culture. Hell,
take a look at "Schindler's List", and watch the little girl in
the red coat; that was an _actual_ occurence, and the child acted
on her own in an attempt to save her own life. Most ADULTS of the
1990s wouldn't have any clue as to what to do in such a situation
(and folks like you would simply do as they were told.)
"unthankful, unholy" - Again, that's a common charge of folks who
don't hold x party line - in religion and politics. (Look at how
Harris simply can't understand why people aren't "thankful" he's
doing what he's doing.)
"Without natural affection" - There've always been callous people.
Ever heard of Atilla the Hun? Also keep in mind that "The Enemy",
no matter WHO it's claimed to be, is ALWAYS portrayed as being
completely emotionless. Makes them easier to kill that way.
"trucebreakers" - Truces and treaties have been broken by one
signatory or another down through the ages. Go read some history
books.
"false accusers" - Christians best fit the bill here on that
count.
"incontinent" - ROFL!
"fierce, despisers of those who are good" - Again, this sounds
like nothing more than simple war propaganda that has echoed for
thousands of years on both sides of conflicts.
"Traitors" - Traitors (to king, country, and gods) have always
existed, from before Brutus up to Benedict Arnold and Brian
Mulroney. And who is and isn't a traitor is a matter of
perspective; Stalin is now (rightly) considered a traitor to
HIS country by his own countrymates, for everything from the
gulags to the selling of the treasures of the Hermitage (which,
of course, he had absolutely no right to sell.) Conversely,
Benedict Arnold, to the British, isn't seen in a bad light.
"heady, highminded" - There've always been snobs. The snobby will
be with us forever; even if everyone had exactly the same thing,
folks would find SOMETHING to be snobby about.
"lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God" - See entry under
"blasphemers". Those who choose to wear hair shirts to
demonstrate their piety always act snobby towards those who wear
silk while bowing. Why? Well, the folks with the silk might be
rich, but the hair-shirted folk make themselves feel better by
considering themselves more worthy of their god's attention,
simply because they wear hair shirts.
"Having the form of godliness .." Again, this can be answered by
the paragraph above. It's simply another version of "he ain't a
Real, True Christian."
SW> 11. The hoarding of gold and silver, and its final demise (James
SW> 5:1-3)
Sigh. Gold, silver, and other monetary wealth has always been
hoarded. The story of King Midas - and the actual, and also very
rich, King Minos - were around long before the NT, and both of
these figures were hoarders. In fact, hoarding of coins was a
serious problem in the ancient world - as was counterfeiting,
which is why engravings were introduced on coinage (as a mark that
the money was trustworthy), though it still didn't stop
counterfeiting, or the fact that many people shaved the sides of
coins (the metal shavings could be melted and reused when enough
accumulated.)
SW> 12. False prophets denying the deity of Christ (2 Peter 2:1-3)
You're repeating yourself. Again, this is just a nice, blanket
charge to make sure the flock doesn't get influenced into thinking
for itself.
SW> 13. Scoffers mocking the second coming of Christ(2 Peter 2:1-3)
And why not? It's taken him 2,000 years already, even though he
said himself that he'd be back in the lifetime of his disciples.
SW> 14. The invention of the atom bomb (2 Peter 3:10)
Says nothing there about atomic bombs. The description may appear
to be similar of that which happens during a nuclear explosion,
but it does NOT mention anything about man-made bombs utilising
nuclear fission. Keep in mind that YHWH was considered by Hebrews
to be a war or thunder god, and the description can easily be
taken to describe a massive lightning strike (thunder makes a
"great noise", and lightning can certainly melt things it
strikes.)
SW> 15 Lethargy and indifference among God's people (compared to the
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [3/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:08
EID:55c4 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3144272b
>>> Part 3 of 3...
SW> Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-16)
Another attempt to keep dissenters down.
SW> 16. The judgments described in the Book of Revelation 3:14-16)
I don't see any prophecies there.
SW> Every one of these prophecies is already in progress. The stage is
SW> being set right now for the fulfillment of Scripture.
Most of these "prophecies" you mention mean absolutely
nothing, at least to those with a knowledge of history and human
nature. Folks have been crying woe and doom well before
Christianity, and will continue to do so for as long as the
species lasts. Any "doom", however, will most likely come from
our own hands, not those of any gods.
SW> Ive listed some of the scriptures that deal with Bible prophecy. Take
SW> the time to look them up and go over them.
I have, unfortunately. It was a complete waste of time.
SW> It says in the Bible "And the beast was taken, and with him the false
SW> prophet that wrought miracles before him,with which he decieved them
SW> that had the mark of the beast, and them that had recieved the mark
of
SW> the beast and them that worshipped his image. These were both cast alive
SW> into a lake of fireburning with brimstone." -Revelation 19:20
For one thing, the bible has always been on my 'least favourite
book ' list for its linking of "beasts" with everything bad. What
on Earth did the bible writers (and presumably, YHWH) have against
animals?
SW> It says in the Bible "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
SW> judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were
SW> beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which
SW> "had not" worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved
SW> his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
SW> reigned with Christ a thousand years." -Revelation 20:4
You said you once were into drugs heavily - did not that
experience teach you to recognise a drug-induced hallucination
when you see it?
SW> If someone takes the mark, they are automatically going to hell and
will
SW> not find forgiveness or mercy.
And what mark might that be? The "daily pass" stamp on the hand
you get at Disney World?
SW> May God open your eyes as you read the truth of scripture.
May wisdom open your eyes enough so that you see the real world,
and go read some real books.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Baldrick, you have the intellectual capacity of a dirty potato.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: John Oliver
|To: All
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 8:52:00
EID:9f8e 206b4680
MSGID: 1:246/148@fidonet 2388d381
PID: QE 2.80 Zeta 1+ & FM 2.12.SW UNREG
Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD mailer
is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
---
* Origin: [ Pink Triangle ] Silence = Death /\ (519)-255-1048 (1:246/148)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Time saver
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:21:44
EID:a85e 206a82a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437056
MM>DW> The laws of inertia apply to all things, even subject headers. :-)
KS> Thing is, most people don't even read them.
Then they must have lots more free time than I do. I don't even work and
I can't read all of every post to find what's interesting. I guess it's
just my fear of missing someting really worth having.
However, I'm adjusting...I've found a pretty quick alternative.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:24:52
EID:cf8c 206a8300
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437057
KM> Of course. IMO, people need something for them to lean on, whether
KM> itbe a god, or a dream, or people, or whatever. As long as their
KM> beliefdoesn't hurt anyone, I have no problem with it.
Hey, that I can live with as well.
KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
That's what most things boil down to. People are driven by the desire to
have fun! (And here I thought it was only girls.)
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Sugar coat?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:26:35
EID:5cdd 206a8340
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437058
BJ> whether it be a politician, the clergy, or your local TV evangelist.
BJ> Everyonehas an ulterior motive, no matter how much they sugar coat
BJ> it...
I just try to discover my own ulterior motives. That way, I can act rather
than just react.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Thinking!
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:32:21
EID:c1e6 206a8400
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437059
BJ> think.I attended high school in the late 80's. What you basically
I was teaching at the college during those years. I relized the change
in student ability to put their thoughts into words.
Just last night me and a friend were discussing that schools no longer wanted
students who actively question every thing presented. They want easily managed
groups that regurgitate information.
I feel that thinking should be taught from a very early age rather than
waiting until college.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Enjoyment
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:56:05
EID:446a 206a8700
MSGID: 1:352/266 3143705A
KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
Hmmm then debunking fundies is ok for entertainment qualities? I think
for me that would depend on the persons character a bit. I really don't
want to ruin a persons life just the get them to crack. For some, religion,
or whatever type, is the one strong port on a very stormy sea. For others,
its just a comfort.
For me it's an intense curiosity.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 16:58:58
EID:9f54 206b8740
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
MB> McDowell's "argument style" has been torn to shreds many times
MB> in this forum. He's an idiot, without a modicum of understanding
MB> regarding the meaning of the term "fallacy."
well then, I would say DON'T read his book.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:00:09
EID:5180 206b8800
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
NS> Oh, this is going to get juicy, I can tell . . .
Sigh.
NS> Last chance for insurance, Anneette! (G)
How much do you charge?
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:10:40
EID:8948 206b8940
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
KD> I'm trying to understand you here - I see Christians as very black/white
KD> logicians - either THEIR god exists or none does, Pascal's wager, etc.
I was specifically referring to the book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict"
Chapters 5 - 10. He spends a lot of time using the IF-THEN arguments for
proving Christ. I was not saying it was or was not true just that there was a christian out there that handled that kind
of style.
and I would actually say that for us christians isn't EITHER my God exists
OR none does .... BUT MY god exists, yours doesn't.
Not that I would really care to get into a fight avbu ack.... about THAT
on this base.
.s
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:54:00
EID:10ce aa0464e0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 239665d7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A1
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Dr. Lane P. Lester holds a Ph.D. in genetics from
> Perdue. Dr. Raymond
> G. Bohlin holds a Ph.D. in genetics from the
> University of Texas.
> They are both creationists. There is a Harvard-
> educated paleontologist
> in Tennessee, whose name I can't recall but can look
> up Monday, who is
> a creationist.
> But why is it that there are people who are well-
> educated in
> disciplines where evolution is assumed, who hold
> degrees from
> prestigious non-sectarian institutions, who reject
> evolution if
> evolution is so obviously true?
I have a suggestion on that score. About 1% of the population suffers from
some form of schizophrenia. There are in the neighborhood of half a million
professional scientists in this country. As several forms of schizophrenia
tend to manifest later in life, and they are often associated with otherwise
high intelligence, there is no reason to expect the proportion of schizophrenic
scientists to be much lower than the proportion of schizophrenics in general.
There should thus be a few thousand of them.
I don't wish to state that this is the explanation of Lester or Bohlin;
I don't know anything about them. The more important point is that there
are so many people with Ph.D.'s these days that it'd be surprising if you
didn't find a large (not proportionately but absolutely) number of crackpots,
even apart from those who are clinically insane. Thus, I find the question
of why mainstream biologists don't take creationism at all seriously much
more enlightening than the question of why one or two isolated individuals
do; there are too many possible answers to the latter question that have
nothing to do with the truth or reasonability of the theory.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:37:42
EID:f984 206a54a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321dd
Judith Bandsma said "Marines, etc." to Don Martin, adding:
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
JB>
JB> I know. I'll also be limited as to what I can send them while
JB> they are in Turkey. Oh well, it will be good for the kids to see other
JB> cultures. But I hope to hell Mike and Jo will get a computer and an
JB> internet account while they are there. Long letters, hand written,
JB> have NEVER been popular with me.
I was reading an article a week or so ago (cannot remember
where, when, or whose--with old age the brain rots) in which the
author mentions in passing trying email and discovering that it was
the perfect way of keeping in touch, precisely because it IS
trivial. It lets you transmit easily the silly stuff you would not
otherwise write down and put a stamp on. To me the interesting thing
is his insight that love, friendship, family, etc. are not
maintained by the Important Stuff (how often do you really get
anything very important in your life?--Lou's job problem seems to be
the last biggie), but by the trifles that make up our daily
existence. When you spread your toast with soup stock base instead
of apple butter and share it, you keep the feelings and laughter
alive.
I do hope they get an email account for you and the kids if for
no one else. A couple of notes a day is a joy, especially in a
strange place (and Turkey is, by all accounts, pretty strange . . .
).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Doctrine
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:59:02
EID:ebca 206a5760
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321de
DAVID RICE said "Doctrine" to BRAD JACKSON, adding:
BJ> Greetings! I was give this track yesterday by a very good friend
BJ> out-lining the:
DR> With friends like that, you don't need enemies!
DR> Why don't your "friends" just brutally rape you while they're
DR> at it?
With friends like THAT, you wouldn't need enemas, either.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:16:52
EID:db24 206a5a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321df
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2C
Dan Ceppa said "REDACTED STORIES" to Don Martin, adding:
JB> Better yet, send her to your mother-in-law until then. After all,
DC> I intend to protect my daughter, not torture her!
DM> It's gonna be pretty tough preserving your 'god' status
DM> around here with them kinda sentiments, podner . . .
DC> ROTF! You got to remember, unlike Kenny Mcabee's god, I don't
DC> require the sacrifice of children!
KNOCK IT OFF! One nicey-nice god like yourself makes all of the
rest look bad. The least you could do is deflower a virgin or two to
show your brother dieties that your heart is in the right place.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:27:34
EID:c4bc 206a5b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e0
Norbert Sykes said "A tale of 2 inerrantists" to Jim Germiquet, adding:
JG> Naming was a process that took place AFTER the animals had been
JG> created. I would suppose it would take some time to name all the
JG> animals, in between naming the plants and other such things.
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was an
NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
Cruel to the ants and not all that kind to the anteater: imagine
the creepy sensation that poor thing must have endured when taking a
dump? Given that this animal eats nothing else, it must have been
one of the most ardent cheerleaders for the original sin to take
place before it starved to death.
At the head of your post, you have:
NS> A tale of 2 inerrantists:
NS> 1% Rick Mcfarlane, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
Anything containing 10% Germiquet MUST have more than 49% inert
materials in it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:48:27
EID:69d4 206a5e00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e1
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2286404f
Jim Germiquet said "A LITTLE HELP FROM SP" to David Worrell, adding:
JG> God is limited
DW> Really? You do realize you are directly contravening 2000 years of
DW> Christian thought here, don't you? What makes your opinion more valid
DW> than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
JG> and make them completely meaningless by themselves.
Bunky, your words are mostly meaningless at their birth; no
judicious editing of ours could hope to make them more fatuous than
they already are. Your big problem is that you insist on spouting
300 at a go instead of confining yourself to some simple point.
JG> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW> your opinion more valid.
Notice that in Dave's redaction, he left a complete independent
clause: subject -- verb -- predicate adjective: it is capable of
standing alone as a basic unit of discourse. Your attempt with his
contains no verb and therefore not an independent clause nor much of
anything else. With such linguistic incompetence, you show a great
deal of sheer, putrescent gall when you accuse anyone else of making
your stuff meaningless.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:57:59
EID:967a 206a5f20
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e2
REPLY: 1:352/266 314114DF
Masochistic Maiden said "Quoting" to Katherine Wintersnight, adding:
MM> Hmmm I prefer to read paraphrased views of books condensed into short
MM> easily remembered statements. And I don't want anyone on their knees
MM> to me... I'd think they were indicating how short I am. heheeh
KW> digestedpablum. The only real no-no in here is editing or changing
KW> someoneelse's post (substituting '****' for 'fuck', for example).
KW> That is theonly thing that I have seen Styx boot a poster for.
MM> No problem, I firmly detest cenosrship.
If you really "prefer to read paraphrased views of books
condensed into short easily remembered statements," how the hell
could you RECOGNIZE a genuine instance of unlabeled censorship? You
make yourself sound like a pushover for any intellectual
manipulator who comes down the pike: all he has to do is convert
somebody else's ideas into easily remembered statements. That
appears to have been David Koresh's technique, and it works very
well with some people.
LAter, you say to Dan Cepa:
DC> Not quite... the nasty fact of evidence is required to support
DC> a theory, as well as predictions based on that theory. Otherwise,
DC> you may has well believe in the Easter Bunny.
MM> Oh, the old must have evidence to exist thing. Uh try this. Take a
MM> colorblind man, and try to give him evidence that color exists. Other
One of the most frequent (non)responses we get from fundies to
requests for evidence is the attempt to cite some problem with the
perceiver when no evidence is seen. I have been frequently told that
I do not see god, not because there is no god there to see, but
because I "have hardened my heart" and am therefore incapable of
seeing gods. How all these fundies know so much at long distance
about the condition of my heart remains a mystery, but it is still
irrelevant: is any evidence for the postulated god visible?
You attempt something of the same thing with the defective
perceiver, only you choose as your exemplar a person with a
quantifiable defect. Certainly it may be difficult to convince a
color-blind person of the existence of color (though most people I
have met who were color blind were well aware of the existence of
color and of their incapacity to see as other do; I presume,
incidentally, that you are talking about the totally color-blind
here and not about the much more numerous set of persons with
color-weak vision), but that difficulty has no impact whatsoever
upon the acceptance of color by the 97% of people (rather a large
majority) who happen to be more normal in respect to color vision.
Fishing among the 3% for some sort of example looks more like
desperation than an argument.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Verdict in Search of Idiots
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:34:25
EID:313f 206a6c40
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e3
Annette Spence said "Hello!" to Karen Davis, adding:
KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so. That's fine,
KD> though gullible because there *is* an intentional untruth in that
KD> statement. but if you're engaging in a thought experiment, you have
to
KD> open up to all the other logical options. I think that's where many
KD> believers lose sight of the religious skeptics.
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument.
What has it been, gang, a whole 3 weeks since anybody mentioned
Josh McDowell here? And we are all getting lonely for him, too,
weren't we?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Hymie
|Sub: Hebes
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:57:05
EID:6657 206a9f20
Whilst masturbating on , Hymie (1:123/610)
wrote to All:
H> Is this the "fundy kike" conferenece?
Why, are you one?
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:52:00
EID:dde0 206b0680
MSGID: 1:3819/163 31450FE9
BJ>MB> Well I'm new here to.
BJ>A fact that is painfully obvious.
Thanks
BJ> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
BJ> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is
your
BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
* OLX 2.1 TD * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:00:05
EID:2499 206a2000
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3144058b
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2E
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 03-05-96 08:31, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, having that ransom in your pocket, you proceed to persecute
DC> all that don't follow you hatred. How convenient.
AM> Who, when and where am I persecuting someone Dan.
DC> The "you" in my statement is about your religion. Or have you
DC> forgotten all the "good" things that it has down in your godling's
DC> name, like: The Inquisition, the Crusades, witch hunts...
Dan, that is a tired old tune your humming. Anyone can claim to be a
Christian, and do what they want under that banner. I challenged you
to find support for such actions under Christ's teachings. All you could
come up with is a verse out of context. In reality, those who adhere to
Christ's teachings, have been the salt of the earth. Prior to the influence
of Christianity, there were no big groups devoted to charitable work. In
Christ's time, there were no food banks, no shelters for the homeless no
clothing drives. And, as this country more and more rejects Christ, the
more
callous we see society become. Just 50 years ago, legalized abortion was
unthinkable, now, there's abortion on demand, and the taxpayer pays for
it.
30 years ago God was kicked out of the schools. Young people are now
graduating who find it difficult to fill out a application. Math and
science skills are deplorable. Drugs are rampant and a teacher getting shot
doesn't even make the papers anymore. There are more unwed mothers than
ever.
And no wonder. Sexual promiscuity at younger ages is on the rise. Many,
half
hour sitcoms, are laced with sexual innuendo. Pornograhy is a billion dollar
cottage industry. You can't go to a convience store without being assaulted
with all manner of depravity. Consequently sexually communicable diseases
are also on the rise. And there becoming more resistant to medication.
Then there's aids. Which I don't think is God's personel judgement, just
the
natural consequences of living a life contrary to God's plan.
After 30 years of war on poverty, and billions of dollars, the problem is
more severe than 30 years ago. And for the first time we are now a debtor
nation with a staggering deficiet. Dan, it is the godless element that is
ruling the day in the media and in our schools and this country is reaping
the benefit of a utopian society you envision with man being accountable
only to himself. It is you and others of your ilk who are shoving your
godless agenda down the throat of this country. Excuse me if I'm getting
on my soap box and pontificating, but you really push a hot button when
you declare the ill's of a society to be the result of Christianity. It
was the Judeo-Christian ethic that made this country rise to world
dominance in short order.
DC> Face it Andy, your religion is nothing more than ancient superstition
DC> and is attempting to keep it alive today by hindering the education
DC> process.
No Dan, it is you who believe in modern superstition because you like its
theological implications i.e. "Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of
the
law."
A quote from Louis Bounoure, former president of Biological Society of
Strasbourg and director of research at the Natural Center of Research in
France. "Evolution is a fairytale for grownups. This theory has helped
nothing to the progress of science. It is useless."
Quoted in Wysong "Creation-Evolution Controversy" page 418.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:31:20
EID:7121 206a23e0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3144058c
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff017
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Andrew Masten <=-
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> OUR CHOICE......not ....GODS PUNISHMENT !
AM> We need to accept responsibilty for our actions.
JG> Precisely, but there are too many spoiled brats today who want to
JG> blame everyone else for the consequences of their own choices and the
JG> ultimate is to blame god.
Blame shifting has become an art form.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:32:23
EID:7121 206a2400
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3144058d
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff018
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Andrew Masten <=-
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>
KDM> I'd think he might be worthy of worship. Look, if I can forgive
KDM> others, why can't he? I don't require people to go kill someone, I
KDM> just forgive them, assuming they are truly repentant.
AM> If I murdered someone, how would the family of the deceased feel
AM> if a judge let me go on the condition I wouldn't murder again? But
AM> God is worthy of worship, because he has forgiven us, just on the
AM> basis of believing he paid the penalty that was due us.
JG> I think you forgot some of the conditions of forgiveness.
JG> "If my people who are called by my name shall turn from there wicked
JG> ways and seek my face then I will hear from heaven and will forgive
JG> their sins and heal their land"
AM> I can't share deep theology with someone who doesn't believe God
AM> even exists Jim. That quote from the old testament is for God's
AM> people.
JG> And how shall they hear if the prophets forbear ? So send I you ?
JG> Again remember Jonah.. He didn't want to share the glory of god
JG> with those sinners in Nineveh. Better give it to the less evil
JG> people of Tarsus who were more worthy of God's grace. But God quickly
JG> showed Jonah that those evil sinners in Nineveh were indeed to be the
JG> benefactors of gods mercy and grace as they did indeed repent of their
JG> sins. We cannot stand in judgement of who is worthy to share "deep
JG> theology" with.
JG> "Deep theology"? Bah ! Humbug ! Jesus said except ye come to me as
JG> children ye shall in no wise inherit the kingdom of God. I do not
JG> bother looking these quotes up. I don't want to play "bible head games
JG> with quotes". I say what God brings to my mind as I am commenting on
JG> the topic in questions. Jesus loved to make things simple like.
JG> ALL the laws of moses can be fulfilled by keeping two SIMPLE
JG> commandments. Those who would make those commandments complicated I
JG> think are making a big mistake. It is a simple as the TRUTH. WHat
JG> makes it difficult is all the gymnastics we do to try to dodge that
JG> deadly missle :-)
One step at a time Jim.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:33:32
EID:55a5 206a2420
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3144058e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313f8806
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Evidence wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> believe in than the story of creation and should be called the
JG> religion of evolution :-)
AM> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
AM> your hudspa.
PS> "hudspa"? Are you perhaps trying to spell "chutzpah"?
Yeah, thats it. Score one for Preston!!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:34:40
EID:55a5 206a2440
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3144058f
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313fca7b
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Evidence wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> *After* you build a nice, big church building. *After* you pay your
DW> minister to do what he should do out of the kindness of his heart.
DW> *After* you make payments on your new car, the mortgage on your pricey
DW> home, the payments on your credit cards, etc.
DW> Got to take care of #1 first, right?
AM> Your just projecting your own nature into someone else.
PS> It's a better depiction of reality than you obviously care to admit.
Thats David's depiction. He has no first hand knowledge.
DW> Our government is feeding two-thirds of Russia. Did you have a point
DW> to make?
AM> I'm talking about our welfare system that spends 80% on
AM> administrative costs and 20% actually gets in the hands of the
AM> recipients. Thats not cost effective.
PS> It's a bureaucracy. Were you expecting efficiency?
I don't have that much faith.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:37:51
EID:2e8c 206a24a0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 31440590
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CF3A06
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Andrew Masten <=-
AS> Although too often philosophy can be a quagmire of semantics. Science
AS> earns one's respect by being one of the few branches of philosophy
AS> that show RESULTS, but one must never forget there are some
AS> philosophical assumptions underlying it.
AM> True enough. Some philosophy is pure hogwash.
AS> So is some science. Luckily, science has a self-correcting faculty,
AS> peer review and experimental verification and duplication, that steers
AS> it back to the right path. The larger philosophy from which it sprang
AS> has no such.
There are some area's science comments on, where the restraints you described
are impossible to put into effect. Yet they still declare it scientific
fact!!
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: David Robins
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:06:51
EID:5042 206b98c0
MSGID: 1:247/312.0 31456554
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
___ Quoting DAVID RICE to DAVID ROBINS re Stupid Quote on 06 Mar 96 08:40:00
>>DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil,
DR> The devil created us via evolution? Wow. Major heresy alert!
DR> Someone inform the Holy Office!
No, no, no, you fundiBashers(tm) can't read. Try reading it again or ask
a 10-year old to read it for you.
>>DR> for if people believe
DR> Evolution is not subject to belief. Try again.
Sure it is. Anything is subject to belief or disbelief (although it does
not, of course, affect whether the thing is true, or, in this case, false).
>>DR> that they are products of random chance
DR> Evolution is not and was not governed by "random chance."
Sure it is. Else we'd all be spherical :P.
>>DR> they will never turn to God.
DR> Hundreds of thousands of Christians (indeed, millions of
DR> theists in general), acknowledge the fact of evolution and
DR> they still believe in the Christian gods (Yahweh, Jesus,
DR> Satan, Lucifer). Ergo, you are full of shit. QED.
Doesn't the FAQ for this conference have some kinda />(905) 732-9956<< (1:247/312)
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PATH: 247/312 600 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: All
|Sub: Male Priests
|Date: 12 Mar 96 06:26:20
EID:b360 206c3340
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31455d47
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
TEN REASONS WHY MEN SHOULD NOT BE ORDAINED
From The MENNONITE REPORTER, "Fly on the newsprint" by Ivan Emke (with
acknowledgement for inspiration to Rosemary Radford Ruether.)
1. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such
as picking turnips or de-horning cattle. It would indeed be "unnatural"
for them to do other forms of work. How can we argue with the intended
order that is instituted and enforced by nature?
2. For men who have children, their duties as ministers might detract
from their responsibilities as parents. Instead of teaching their children
important life skills like how to make a wiener-roasting stick, they would
be
off at some committee meeting or preparing a sermon. Thus these
unfortunate children of ordained men would almost certainly receive less
attention from their male parent. Some couples might even go so far
as to put their children into secular daycare centres to permit the man
to
fulfill his duties as a minister.
3. According to the Genesis account, men were created before women,
presumably as a prototype. It is thus obvious that men represent an
experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation.
4. Men are overly prone to violence. They are responsible for the vast
majority of crime in our country, especially violent crime. Thus they
would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in
positions of leadership.
5. In the New Testament account, the person who betrayed Jesus was a man.
Thus his lack of faith and ensuing punishment stands as a symbol of the
subordinate position that all men should take. The story also illustrates
the natural tendency of all men to be either unwilling or unable to take
a
stand. From the Garden of Gethsemane to football locker rooms, men still
have this habit of buckling under the weight of the lowest common
denominator. It is expected that even ordained men would still embarrass
themselves with their natural tendecy toward a pack mentality.
6. Jesus didn't ordain men. He didn't ordain any women either, but two
wrongs don't make a right.
7. If men got ordained, then they wouldn't be satisfied with that; they'd
want more and more power. Next thing most of the Conference leaders
would be men and then where would we be? No. The line must be drawn
clearly now before it's too late.
8. Many, if not most, men who seek to be ordained have been influenced
by
the radical "men's movement" (or "masculist movement"). How can they be
good leaders if their loyalties are divided between leading a church and
championing the masculist drive for men's rights? The tract writers
haven't pronounced on it yet, but the masculist movement is probably
profoundly un-Christian.
9. To be an ordained pastor is to nurture and strengthen a whole
congregation. But these are not traditional male roles. Rather, throughout
the history of Christianity, women have been considered to be not only more
skilled than men at nurturing, but also more fervently attracted to it.
Women,
the myth goes, are fulfilled and completed only by their service to others.
This makes them the obvious choice for ordination. But if men try to fit
into
this nurturing role, our young people might grow up with Role Confusion
Syndrome, which could lead to such terrible traumas as the Questioning
Tradition Syndrome.
10. Men can still be involved in Church activities, without having to be
ordained. They can still take up the offering, shovel the sidewalk, and
maybe even lead the singing on Fathers' Day. In other words, by confining
themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally
important in the life of the Church. Why should they feel left out?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Illustrate your Sermons! Wear "far side" ties.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:35:24
EID:2738 206c4460
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9ab6
REPLY: 1:271/460 31439d76
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
KM> boring life if the best thing you can come up with for
KM> entertainment is to try and convience Christian that the Bible is
KM> not true.....
I would rather lead in a boring life...than blindly follow in one as you
fundy *noids do.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Mark staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:35:41
EID:0ff1 206c4460
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9ab7
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31432fda
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Mark staal wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
Ms> .....Sorry, Don't quite understand that one.....Don't care to
Ms> either.
Right. Just bury your head in the sand, yet again, and say 500 "Is Nots!"
and make it all go away. "Those who live in nothing but fantasy worlds...becomes
themselves a fantasy to others."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:29:29
EID:aeec 206c43a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9ab3
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
SR> Why did NASA stock Pepsi aboard the Shuttle?
SR> Because they couldn't get Seven Up.
SR> NASA sent a Math Teacher up into space.
SR> Now...she's History.
SR> NASA saved a ton of money on the Astronauts' funeral.
SR> They gave them all a free burial-at-sea!
SA> She knew it might be dangerous when she went up - if she didn't,
SA> she was too dumb to be a teacher, anwyay. The character Q from
SA> ST:TNG probably said it best - "It's a dangerous universe out
SA> there - if you can't take a bloody nose once in a while, you've no
SA> business being out here."
And I almost forgot the favorite one of them all:
":Squak: Hey Houston! What does *this* button do?"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:36:21
EID:7b71 206c4480
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9ab8
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14357117
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Sue Armstrong:
SA>Something you fundies never seem to do.
JJ> What is a "fundie?" And why do you call me one?
Still as ignorant about your title years after you first heard it.
Not surprising.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:07:19
EID:3617 206b78e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314441d0
REPLY: 1:123/67 31441c89
11 Mar 96 12:28, Shelby Sherman wrote to Michael Hardy:
SS> 07 Mar 96 23:01, quoting Michael Hardy to All:
MH>> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan
MH>> Ceppa, David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and
MH>> David Worrell.
SS> Coward.
You're just jealous because you didn't earn a place in Mikey's glorious
twit filter. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:05:53
EID:fe00 206b78a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3144418d
REPLY: 1:123/319.0 31439692
10 Mar 96 21:57, Larry Craig wrote to All:
LC> Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
LC> Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his
LC> book - that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And
LC> didn't Dole say that his administration would be inclusive of
LC> homosexuals (an abomination to God).
LC> ... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
LC> -+- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
LC> + Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
LC> (1:123/319)
Have I told you how happy I am that I left Memphis lately? :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David "Messiah" Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:42:36
EID:9fb1 206c6540
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31457189
08 Mar 96 16:12, Norbert Sykes wrote to Jim Germiquet:
JG>> I can throw you a rope , I can beg you to
JG>> come back.
NS> So you believe that David is Jesus, huh? David, do you want to
NS> take umbrage at that, or should I?
NS> BTW, does this make David officially a messiah now?
And my grandmother said I would never amount to anything :)
There's gonna be some changes around here, I can tell you that much.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:07:05
EID:2f0c 206c68e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314577b8
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d7b
10 Mar 96 01:48, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
-=>> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
DW>>> Dr. Suess' books are aimed at children. I thought the Bible was
DW>>> aimed at *everybody*, not just a barbaric group of savages
DW>>> 2-4000 years ago.
RM>>> You guys are amazing. You ridicule the fundies who believe that
RM>>> the bible was written in English, yet, when it suits your
RM>>> purposes, you pretend that it actually WAS written in English.
JG>> RIGHT ON !!!!!
DW>> You agree with him? Good. Maybe you can tell me where I, or any
DW>> other atheist here, "pretends" that the Bible was written in
DW>> English.
DW>> Can you, or are you completely full of shit?
JG> Very simply put, you ridule the idea that the world was created in
JG> seven days. You demand that the word day mean a solar day or 24 hr
JG> period of time. You AND the fundies.
Where have I done any such thing? As long as the word "day" is undefined,
I could say that the universe has only existed 7.9 days. Where have I pretended
that the Bible was written in English, Jim?
JG> And much of the entire bible is written in this "metaphoric" sense,
Show us the algorithm you use to seperate the metaphor from the fact, Jim.
How do you know that the resurrection wasn't metaphorical as well?
JG> context ot may be meant. A good example I gave early on was the
JG> meaning of the word hate, when it says to hate your mother and father
JG> and life. The meaning I took even from my modern dictionary could be
JG> "to be unwilling" This completely changes what the verse means.
And I just read where someone (Norbert, maybe?) showing, using Strong's,
that the Jews viewed the word much as we do. You were wrong again, li'l
fundy - don't you ever get tired of it?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:00:51
EID:213e 206c6800
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31457594
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4396
09 Mar 96 20:25, Michael Hardy wrote to Judith Bandsma:
JB>> ... I know you're not as stupid as you seem. No one could be!
MH> Even you can't hold a discussion without resorting to
MH> name-calling. Somehow I had thought you were above that sort of
MH> thing. Silly me.
Awwww... did wittwe Mikey get his feewings hurt?
If you weren't such a bonehead, Hardly, people wouldn't feel they had to
use hammers to get through to you.
Would someone please forward this to Mikey? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:33:45
EID:912a 206c6420
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31456f92
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4393
08 Mar 96 23:59, Michael Hardy wrote to Kenneth Cavness:
KC>> I see. So, forcing a land into famine (the plague of locusts),
KC>> killing off all the firstborn, and causing an incredible number
KC>> of people to die of thirst (pollution of the water supply by
KC>> turning it into blood) was just a "nudge".
MH> By the time God started unleashing real punishment, Pharoah had
MH> been offered, and refused, several chances to do the right thing.
Notice that God did not punish Pharoah. He punished Pharoah's *subjects*
most (if not all) of whom had no control over Pharoah's decision. That's
some God you worship there, Hardly.
Would somebody please forward this to Mikey? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:02:35
EID:04d0 206c6840
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3145769d
REPLY: 1:228/45.2 3140c2ef
08 Mar 96 23:24, Dave Oosterman wrote to David Worrell:
DO>>> I conclude that David Whore-hell (juvenile, ain't it?)
DW>> Probably so.
DO> That was the intent.
You catch on pretty quick for such a dumbass, Roosterman.
DW>> It is also extremely hypocritical, coming from one who
DW>> claims to adhere to a moral code that contains the tenets "Turn
DW>> the other cheek" and "Bless those who persecute you." I have
DW>> learned to expect that type of hypocrisy from Christians, though,
DW>> so you really didn't surprise me.
DO> Not quite, my misguided little nipper. Christians are also to
DO> demonstrate where someone is in error. Even by showing how ridiculous
DO> one looks by tossing it back at them. (Psst! The "juvenile..." line
DO> is the clue.)
You ignored two important concepts, Rooster.
1.) If I was as juvenile as you thought, I wouldn't care what your opinion
on the subject was.
2.) I consider you a complete moron and Hardly's yes-man, so I *still* don't
care what your opinion on the subject is.
DW>> How's it feel to have your buttons pushed, Rooster?
DO> Don't flatter yourself, kiddo. As I care not a whit what you think,
DO> you are not capable of button-pushing.
You just replied out of the kindness of your heart, right? Here,
pull the other leg, dipshit.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:05:56
EID:1c43 206c68a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314576f3
08 Mar 96 17:32, Judith Bandsma wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> How many damned moderators do they have over there now, anyway?
JB> A better question would be 'how many posters do they have?'. I think
JB> about every 3rd person has some moderation capacity after their name.
Kevin informed me that they have 8 moderators (of some type or another).
Considering that they only had seven regular posters (excluding all the
gated internet stuff) when I was there last, that's some feat. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:55:15
EID:5d9a 206c0ee0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3144d99d
09 Mar 96 07:18, Norbert Sykes wrote to David Worrell:
TP>> Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
DW>> Yes, I do. I have not chosen to share that opinion with you. The
DW>> opinion that I have chosen to share with you is that you are a
DW>> frightened, paranoid little git whose life is so empty that you
DW>> have to dream up vast conspiracies in order to make yourself feel
DW>> important.
NS> You forgot the part about the vestigial micro-genitals . . .
I saw no need in rubbing salt into the wounds :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 12 Mar 96 06:11:00
EID:0bb4 206c3160
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> Now, Judith, just how did you know that.... I was thinking more
DC> along the line that he meant Piper Laurie or Roddy McDowell. :)
Because my sister is a big wrestling fan. (She at one time had a bad
crush on Haystack Calhoun) Rowdy Roddy Piper is also one of her favorites.
... Chill out! I'm just here for your hamster. --Death.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHESTERTON
|Date: 12 Mar 96 06:55:00
EID:4468 206c36e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
AS> read them all. I hope what I said will NOT put you off Father
AS> Brown...such remarks from Brown or G.K. are few and far between, and
No, your remarks are not putting me off. What IS putting me off is that,
while nice little stories, the Father Brown 'mysteries' aren't very well
crafted. In a few, he has resorted to pulling out clues that were never
stated in the body of the work and a few other tricks that just feel like
cheats. I'm beginning to find them kind of dull because of this.
And no, it isn't because of his theology. It's just because I don't see
him as that good a mystery writer. Then again, maybe I'm just trying to
read too much of it at once. I have a book here (from the library) with
ALL the Father Brown stories in it, so it could just be overload.
... Possessor of a mind not merely twisted but actually sprained.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: QUESTION
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:07:00
EID:b2d5 206c38e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Rob Burcham <=-
AS> Wait, he's happily married to Rhea whatshername...so you're Devito's
AS> Transylvanian half-brother, right?
And half-sister, too.
... What you can do to stop obscene phone calls: Don't make them!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:14:00
EID:a2c0 206c39c0
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
Before I got my dogs I had 2 shove their way into my house after I told
them I wasn't interested. Does that count?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: 20 MOST DISGUSTING CA
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:16:00
EID:69fb 206c3a00
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Sean Mccullough <=-
SM> 20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
BJ> 21- Television evangelists
22- Television evangelists who are also lawyers.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:19:00
EID:3c4b 206c3a60
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Judith Bandsma <=-
BJ> Good to know someone remembers me! =) Anything interesting happen
BJ> while I was gone?
Lots. Too much to even know where to start. Just keep reading, you
should get up to speed fairly quickly.
... You know when you're dieting when postage stamps taste good!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:28:00
EID:5bf2 206c3b80
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Becke Jones <=-
DC> You where here a year ago... Must've missed that!
DAN! Your memory can't be THAT bad. It was Staal calling Becke a b***h,
in
conjunction with his words to Gwenny that got the ball rolling on the
misogynist thread.
... Not now . . . I have to go mow the laundry.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 12 Mar 96 07:54:00
EID:5efc 206c3ec0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to George Mooth <=-
JH> "They're made out of meat."
What a strange coincidence. I just started reading this story last night.
It brought to mind not just Mooth, but several posters here.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: ADOLPH HITLER
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:01:00
EID:accd 206c4020
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> know that wind exists. But HOW do we know it exists ? You are so quick
We know the wind exists by DIRECT observations of its actions. IE, in
realtime in the location it is happening.
As one other who tried using this same argument was asked...ok, build me
a god detector that will act in the same manner. Don't forget to include
the meter that will show WHICH god it is detecting.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:03:00
EID:283e 206c4060
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Judith Bandsma <=-
JG> Why? Is it not a historical fact that creationism is written about in
JG> the bible and some people actually believe it literally. Personally
I
Yes, it is true that it was WRITTEN about. But so have 'canals' on Mars,
colonies on the moon and time travel. And there are people who believe in
those just as literally. Doesn't make it history, though.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:07:00
EID:14ad 206c40e0
-=> Quoting Joanna Amren to Karl Schneider <=-
-> Non carborundum illegitimus.
JA> translation of the middle word there will be a big help.:)
'Don't let the bastards grind you down'. (Loosely)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: update
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:33:00
EID:cdad 206c4420
Just thought I'd let you know what is going on with the little girl I
told you about.
She delivered in January, a little boy, by C-section. There was no way to
deliver vaginally.
The aunt has kept the baby. No formal adoption there, but both are living
with her and she has taken on the raising of them both...including having
to hire a full-time nanny for both the young mother and her child. The
girl cannot be trusted around the baby as she doesn't see it as a living
thing, but as the instrument of all the pain she suffered.
What a balls up mess this has been made into. Don't people ever think about
what they are doing?
... I'm weird, but around here it's barely noticable.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ONE MORE TIME
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:45:00
EID:91a8 206c45a0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> misguided. For you to lump them in with those who resort to violence
MH> is your own hate.
No, Mike, behavior like that is ENCOURAGED by speech that paints a
'disapproved' of lifestyle as an 'abomination'. Sure, Dobson's hands are
'clean'. He never went out for a gay-bashing session (that he ever got
caught at). But when you preach abomination at people and then show them
where the bible not only condones such attitudes but gives the consequences
of such a life-style (stoning), you are going to get zealots who are out
to do the 'will of god'. With baseball bats and tire iron. Does Dobson
decry such violence? No, he does not. He was on a talk show and the question
was asked of him 'do you condone violence against gays?'. His answer was
that violence was wrong...but the biggest shame was that GAYS BROUGHT IT
ON THEMSELVES BY THEIR FILTHY LIFESTYLE.
JB> ... I know you're not as stupid as you seem. No one could be!
MH> Even you can't hold a discussion without resorting to
MH> name-calling. Somehow I had thought you were above that sort of
MH> thing. Silly me.
Mike, I have this thing called a tagline manager. Unless I turn off the
automatic addition of a random tagline, it will add whatever it damn well
feels like. I am right now on day 8 of one of my bad headaches. I'm starting
to believe it will NEVER go away. Excuse me if I forgot to toggle the fucking
thing to 'manual'. I don't even remember having this as a tagline, let
alone adding it to this message. And if I had seen it when I proofed the
message, I would have replaced it because it doesn't fit with the message.
BTW...no comment on my listing of 'special' laws?
... D‚j… Stew: leftovers
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: CLAIMS
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:06:00
EID:67a1 206c48c0
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Michael Hardy <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
MH> Just what is the thing above supposed to be, anyway?
NS>
NS> Ogham, an Irish form of writing, or more exactly, incising.
Actually, it looks more like the christian fish...after dinner.
... Death called while you were out, so I gave him your pager number.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:07:00
EID:dea2 206c48e0
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Judith Bandsma <=-
NS> Yep, it's a fun place. I do like the wharf more, though . . .
Ooooh, yes. Especially since the seals have started hauling in at Pier 39.
Much more comfortable to watch them than going out to Cliff House.
I lived in the Sunset for a while...41st Street. We used to walk from there
to Ashbury, to a little place called the 'Blue Unicorn'. It is no longer
there. But there IS a Ben and Jerry's on the corner of Haight/Ashbury.
That almost makes up for it.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:34:00
EID:6ad2 206c4c40
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Steve Rose <=-
SA> Laika, was named after the first Earthling in space - a Russian
SA> dog who rode in Sputnik II, but didn't make it back alive.
SA> His/her image is engraved on the Wall of Heroes in Moscow,
SA> alongside Yuri Gegarin and other cosmonauts, a rather lovely
SA> tribute. I saw the story - and the Wall - on PBS one day, and was
SA> greatly moved.)
A few years ago when we visited Holland, Interkosmos (the Russian Space
Exhibition) was touring Europe and happened to be at De Efteling. We
went to see it. All the early Russian space exploration was shown in
pictures and artifacts. Laika (a female, btw) was prominently represented.
They allowed us to take photos and video...I have an album full. When we
got home and had the film developed we had a slight problem for about 6
months afterward. Our mail coming from Holland was delayed, and opened,
the phone was tapped (confirmed by the phone co.) and we had all kinds of
investigations of us going on. (This was before the Soviet Union fell) We
think it was a combination of the photo of my youngest son in front of a
Soviet flag and the bust of Yuri Gagarin and the fact that my husband is
a resident alien (plus Reagan was still president at the time).
... Confucious say.."men who read women like books, prefer braille!"
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:12:17
EID:508e 206b8980
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63951c73
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff01f
JG> So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that
JG> might be leading you there, is not going to stop you from
JG> ending up there. It is like being on a train to new york
JG> screaming I refuse to go to new york.
Obesity is real.
You have yet to show that hell is real.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:24:45
EID:5cfe 206b8b00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 639539a2
JB> He loved them. So that became his special birthday food. retch>
Which just shows you that enough garlic can make anything taste good.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Hamas
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:32:41
EID:3b83 206b8c00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63954fee
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313fca7a
PS> If it were any of my business, I'd say that the Israelis need to
PS> remember that not every Palestinian is an enemy to be shot on
PS> sight. Regarding the elements of Hamas who are responsible
PS> for these crimes, I think that nailing them to stakes and
PS> setting them on fire would probably be a suitable treatment.
I agree with this to a point. My opinion is that the Israelis, when gratned
nation status by the UN, decided that they could now do whatever they pleased.
They tossed people from lands they had occupied for many years. It's nice
that they gave them jobs and other opportunities, but it seems that a lot
of the Palestinian problem would not have occured ahd the Israelis taken
the Palestinians seriously.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 11 Mar 96 18:50:03
EID:85b9 206b9640
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63961857
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 313f9955
LW> Marty, as you know this is not an easy issue to sort out. For
LW> about half a year now I have been doing group counseling for men
LW> who abuse their partners. It sickens me to hear the things these
LW> men do to the women in their lives and, often, to their children
LW> as well. Obviously nobody with an ounce of compassion could see
LW> some of the things that go on and not become saddened, upset, and
LW> angry.
LW> I do not claim that this is a full answer to the question you
LW> raise. As I said, this is a difficult question and there is no
LW> simple answer, whether or not one happens to believe in God.
LW> However, if you will allow theistic thinking to be as complex and
LW> context-sensitive as you allow non-theistic thinking to be, you
LW> will find that theists are searching for solutions to problems
LW> like this just as non-theists are.
I read the full text of your answer and while you make a stand on two point,
I believe that they can be rolled into one.
Your points are:
1. God is allowing us free will.
2. God is more concenred with spirituality.
I view these rather as an excuse for inaction on the prt of your god rather
than reasons. Either that or the fact that your god does not exist.
The perfect, all knowing, all powerful deity would have made us perfect.
We need not have free will at the expense of the nasty shit that goes down
with it. In other words, the real god could give us r\free will without
the crime, without the politics, without the Nazis, the bigots, and all
the other stuff. We need not suffer. The perfect god can keep us all in
good health till our time of death. The perfect god nbeed not test us,
as he knows what the answer tot he test will be. It is not necessary for
a god to make us work to overcome the ills of the earth. He knows who will
take them on and who won't.
With our short (or in some cases even shorter) lifespan on this planet the
suffering of a life of poverty or abuse is something that does not reflect
perfection. If god is interested in the spiritual life, then he must concern
us with the physical one as well. This is part of the package.
I do not believe that the perfect god would allow this kind of thing to
happen. Therefore, I do not believe that he is real. Whether you believe
it or not, Hector's stone pavement analogy of reality is valid. Something
that is real that does something real to us. You god has shown either a
very heavy lack of impotence or he is not there.
I simply choose that the loving god could not bring himself to do this.
So I judge that he is not there.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: 'American 'Athiest''
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:04:49
EID:810a 206b9880
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 639623ea
DR> page on the Web calling themselves "American Athiests",
DR> masquerading as "American Atheists" under a deliberate
DR> misspelling of "atheist" into "athiest" (so as not to be
DR> sued, no doubt). It takes you to their Life Link Central:
DR> picture of a fetus [actually: miscarriage] with anti-abortion
DR> propaganda.
I thought obscenity had been banned.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:16:37
EID:42d3 206b9a00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63964009
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3140c7a2
SQ> "Bill Gates." I've completed 2/3 of my Microsoft certification
SQ> in under three months, with 1/6 being finished Sunday. Gates is
SQ> EVIL, man, EVIL.
Ask for a raise. If Gates tells you that there's no money for that, then
you know he satan.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:22:47
EID:2c15 206b9ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63965001
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A4386
MH> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
Now, we've been over this before. Why is it that you believe that all laws
that enforce decncy could not have originated from anything other than a
religious background?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ma teresa
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:25:52
EID:d597 206b9b20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 639655ac
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438A
MH> I offer this FYI. Christians are quite aware that other
MH> are human and imperfect, and we're aware that we're human and
MH> imperfect too. Christianity is built on the premise that "ALL
MH> sinned and come short of the glory of God," even Mother
So, are they saying that MT is not a true christian?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:29:08
EID:d0a6 206b9ba0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63965ffd
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864050
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell
JG> me WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang". Oh yeah
JG> you will say it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will
JG> say my god came out of "nothingness". My god is YOUR "big
JG> bang". And you have about as much proof of where your "big
JG> bang" came from as I have of where "god" came from.
The Big Bang came from a highly compressed ball of matter that contained
all the matter in the universe. When a critical mass was achieved by gravitational
compression, the mass expanded.
It's that simple. Where is your evidence for god?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:34:38
EID:8c82 206b9c40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63966ab0
REPLY: 3:711/933 3140ca0a
DH>> Does anyone keep a list of contradictory, bizarre and
DH>> genrally absurd Biblical quotes I could used to needle this
DH>> fellow a little bit? I'm
AG> There is no such list because there is no contradiction. Those
AG> apparent contradictions are where we lack faith (or
AG> understanding). And there are books by unbelievers which
AG> specialize in these. Some of these can appear quite bizarre
AG> and absurd.
Liar
(which first--beasts or man?)
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the
earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. GEN 1:26 And
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl
of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over
every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should
be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. GEN 2:19 And out
of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and
every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he
would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature,
that was the name thereof.
==================================================================
===========
(number of beasts in the ark)
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens,
the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two,
the male and his female.
GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of
fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9
There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the
female, as God had commanded Noah.
==================================================================
===========
(horse count)
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his
chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and
chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the
chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
==================================================================
(folly to be wise or not?)
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and
with all thy getting get understanding.
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that in-
creaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
=================================================================
Isa. 14:21 <-> Deut. 24:16 (sins of the father)
==================================================================
Leviticus 11:113,19 and Deuteronomy 14:11-18 list fowl, and both
have bats in the list with heron, lapwing, and bat closing off the
list. The bat is not a bird.
==================================================================
Leviticus 11:6 has a hare chewing its cud. Rabbits do no such
thing.
'Gerah', the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and
also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I
think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does
*not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for
that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase
translated 'chew the cud' in the KJV is more exactly 'bring up the
cud'. Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way
through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is
inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they
do not bring anything up and chew on it.
==================================================================
Leviticus 11:21-23 lists things with four legs. Among the list are
locust, beetle (cricket in some translations), and grasshopper.
==================================================================
Psalms 58:8 says "as a snail melts..." Snails do not melt.
==================================================================
Gen 1:20-21 has the waters bringing forth Gen 2:19 has them coming
from the ground. Maybe some one should tell them about eggs?
==================================================================
Genesis 30:39 cattle looking at pilled rods conceive and bring
forth ringspeckled, speckeled and spotted calves. changing the
characteristics of a descendant by showing them a rod just doesn't
work...
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:35:24
EID:8c82 206b9c60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63966bf3
REPLY: 3:711/933 3140ca0a
DH>> Does anyone keep a list of contradictory, bizarre and
DH>> genrally absurd Biblical quotes I could used to needle this
DH>> fellow a little bit? I'm
AG> There is no such list because there is no contradiction. Those
AG> apparent contradictions are where we lack faith (or
AG> understanding). And there are books by unbelievers which
AG> specialize in these. Some of these can appear quite bizarre
AG> and absurd.
Liar
==================================================================
Matthew 4:8 ..took upon a high mountain and shewed all the
kingdoms of the world.
1. Geology - rock simply isn't strong enough for such a
megamountain.
2. astromical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire
exterior surface from anyplace.
==================================================================
Genesis 3:14 "...and dust though shalt eat all the days of thy
life." Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt.
==================================================================
} - Earth is unsupported (Job 26:7) Job 38:4 says Earth has a
foundation. Job 26:11 says heaven is supported by pillars.
==================================================================
} - Earth is round (Isaiah 40:22) Matthew 4:8 ..took upon a high
mountain and shewed all the kingdoms of the Not on a round surface
he didn't...
==================================================================
} - Water cycle is described (Eccl. 1:7) Job 38:22 says that snow
and hail are kept in storehouses.
==================================================================
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly
tradition:
Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals,
creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)
Note that there are "days", "evenings", and "mornings" before the
Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim", which
is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods". In this
tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying
after each step that "it was good".
The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:
1: Earth and heavens (misty)
2: Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
3: Plants
4: Animals
5: Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)
==================================================================
Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men
which were upon the fact of the earth."
Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto
them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill
every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But
all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
==================================================================
Prov.4:7: "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom:
and with all thy getting get understanding."
1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the
wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
==================================================================
Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."
Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to
heart."
==================================================================
Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward
of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst,
and all his bowels gushed out."
Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in
the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the
chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."
==================================================================
regarding Jesus' first sermon...
Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a
mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he
opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain,
and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of
people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his
disciples and said..."
==================================================================
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:36:01
EID:8c82 206b9c80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63966d6c
REPLY: 3:711/933 3140ca0a
DH>> Does anyone keep a list of contradictory, bizarre and
DH>> genrally absurd Biblical quotes I could used to needle this
DH>> fellow a little bit? I'm
AG> There is no such list because there is no contradiction. Those
AG> apparent contradictions are where we lack faith (or
AG> understanding). And there are books by unbelievers which
AG> specialize in these. Some of these can appear quite bizarre
AG> and absurd.
Liar
==================================================================
Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men
which were upon the fact of the earth."
Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto
them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill
every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But
all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
==================================================================
Prov.4:7: "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom:
and with all thy getting get understanding."
1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the
wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
==================================================================
Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."
Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to
heart."
==================================================================
Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward
of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst,
and all his bowels gushed out."
Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in
the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the
chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."
==================================================================
regarding Jesus' first sermon...
Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a
mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he
opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain,
and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of
people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his
disciples and said..."
==================================================================
And regarding Jesus' last words there are THREE versions!:
Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud
voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My
God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried
again with a loud voice, yielded u the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
"Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said
thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he
said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the
ghost."
==================================================================
WHAT DID THE LORD DECREE 3 YEARS FAMINE OR 7 YEARS FAMINE?
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto
him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or
will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they
pursue. thee?
I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus
saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three
months to be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of
thine enemies overtaketh thee;
==================================================================
IS IT GOD OR SATAN
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD
was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to
say, Go, number Isreal and Judah.
I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Isreal, and provoked
David to number Israel.
==================================================================
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS? In two places in the New Testament the
genealogy of Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16
and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED
husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus(PBUH). The first one
starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second
one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to
these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be
true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and
most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.
==================================================================
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
(Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to
his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
(Gen. 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man
see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:38:53
EID:6dab 206b9cc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6396759c
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org cbed05f8
MG>>While I agree with you on his level of maturity, I would like
MG>>to know what your answer to this is. do you not believe the
MG>>passage? Do you not believe that your god will not kill the
MG>>true believer if poison is taken?
KS> He thinks it is a bogus passage, having been added by
KS> unidentified bad-guys in the long ago.
I'm interested in what he thinks is real bible material. I know that much
of the gospels were written far after the fact. He claims that this was
written 300 years or more after Jesus' death. Why would it not be part
of the bible?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:40:07
EID:3e9c 206b9d00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63967681
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 9f9f214c
KS> Arguing with Mikey about science is much like debating chili
KS> recipes with a crayfish.
Amen. Pass the Etouffe.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:44:20
EID:5cb8 206c5580
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc75
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141e075
David Worrell wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> 07 Mar 96 13:19, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to Jim Germiquet:
TP> substance to those allegations, it STILL doesn't warrent running tanks
TP> thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
DW> How many tanks were run through the residence, Parker?
At least one.
Is there some kind of 'tank assault threshold number' that your fishing
for? If there's less than the magic number of tanks the assault is ok wiht
you.
What's your point?
TP> On what, other than UNSUBSTANTIATED allegations, do you base this
TP> belief; trust of govt? In any event, does it justify a TANK assault.
DW> If "tanks" had "assaulted" the compound, none of the BD's would
DW> have survived to testify, pinhead. You do know what an 120mm main
DW> gun does, don't you?
Oh, you're actually in DENIAL about the tank assault described in the Associated
Press story printed in the Austin American-Statesman (largest daily circulation
newspaper in Austin, Tx) on March 1, 1994 on page B 3.
Here, let me refreshh your memory:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:58:43
EID:3252 206c5740
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc76
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d66
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
-=> Quoting Terry Liberty-parker to Jim Germiquet <=-
TL> State of Texas, Child Protective Services, investigated those
TL> allegations repeatedly and came up BLANK. Had they discovered
TL> substance to those allegations, it STILL doesn't warrent running tanks
TL> thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
JG> Certainly fire regulations and flammable liquid regulations
JG> were not being followed.
TL> There are no such 'regulattions' in rural Texas and they resorted to
TL> those when govt cut their utilities.
JG> It's easy for you to sit in your "easy" chair and judge after
JG> the fact.
TL> I came up out of my 'easy' chair when I saw the tank assault on live
TL> national TV. I really went ballistic when GOVT agents testified, at
TL> the trial of surviving Branch Davidians, that the official stratagy
was
TL> to demolish the residence in an effort to drive the occupants out.
JG> You never got out of your easy chair at all, because you were not
JG> the one responsible for making that decision at the time. You are
JG> not the one who would have taken the flack if you had of just sat
JG> back while these children were raped or murdered in a murder
JG> suicide situation.
Did someone put a gun to these agent's heads, to FORCE them to take these
govt jobs?
JG> And as much as "you" think this was all just a big army attacking
JG> a simple family "sitting down for thanksgiving dinner", I kind of
JG> doubt, that was the situation here.
It wasn't, and 'I' didn't characterize it as such.
TL> Imagine the environment created in that residence by OUR employees.
TL> The smoke induced blinding, from CS gas and fire, combined with
TL> collapsing structural supports and stairs, to disorient the occupants
TL> thus trapping them.
TL> Some died from smoke inhalation, some from live burning, some from
TL> weapons wounds (trial did not determine source), some from tank induced
TL> blunt force trauma to the skull.
JG> I agree, that is a terrible picture. But so is the sight of bodies
JG> blown to bits by a suicide bomber.
As far as I know, our govt dosn't employ 'suicide bomgers; at least not
publicly. The point is that WE are responsible for the actions of OUR official
employees, the govt agents.
Pointing to the misdeeds of people who are NOT our employees is like the
little boy, caught with his hand in the cookie jar, indicting some other
little bou as well.
It's a pathetic attempt to discount the crime WE are responsible for.
JG> So was the sight of the Jonestown massacre.
As far as I know, Jim Jones was not our employee; and is thus irrelavent
to the issue govt employee culpability going unaddressed.
JG> It does not tell us how this all came about.
We can argue about that 'till hell freezes over and it would still not justify
running tanks thru a residence occupied with men, women and children.
JG> And why these maniacs chose armed resistance with women and
JG> children, rather than surrendering to the authorities.
Thye are not our employees. We are not accountable for thier actions.
JG> Don't make these people sound like "law abiding citizens". Law
JG> abiding citizens have no need to fear legal repercussions of
JG> surrendering to the proper authorities.
No amount of discounting these people would justify running tanks thru a
residence occupied with men, women and children.
Why do some folks work so hard at it?
TL> One of the coronors, employed by govt for this case, expressed
TL> outrage, on a Maury Povich episode, over govt's initial claim (since
TL> recanted) that the children's blunt force trauma to the head induced
TL> deaths were inflicted by Davidian parents as mercy killing rather than
TL> being a result of the tanks 'penetrating a room's length or more.'
JG> Obviously the tanks use is questionable at all and the
JG> implementation of it not well planned. But what were the
JG> alternatives when you want immediate access to the building,
JG> because you feel a murder suicide could take place within moments.
During the Vietnam war, we were told our troops were destroying villages
to 'save' them.
Think about what you just posted; they might be putting themselves in danger
of life and limb. So the govt should take over, and put the hostages in
danger of life and limb.
Is this 'rescue' or 'control?'
TL> Our govt agent employees gassed the Davidians and then brought their
TL> house down on top of them.
JG>
JG> You were not the one faced with making the decision at the
JG> time.
None of which justifies an unconstitutional reckless endangerment.
TL> I was not elected, appointed, hired or payed to devise an appropriate
TL> police responce; we employ professionals to allegedly do that. But,
as
TL> a citizen, I, and you, ARE responsible for an action by our employees
TL> that was OBVIOUSLY not an appropriate remdy.
TL> NOTHING done by Branch Davidians justified running tanks thru a
TL> residence occupied by men, women and children.
JG> I tend to agree that this was a bad move, and that the people
JG> responsible should lose their jobs for not finding a better method
JG> of resolving the situation. Unless you can prove otherwise however,
JG> I will give them the benefit of a doubt that they felt that a
JG> murder suicide similar to the Jimmy Jones thing was an immediate
JG> possibility. And based on the "armed" resistance to law enforcement
JG> officers in the performance of their duties.
Is THAT your method of 'looking the other way?'
The place to make the case you present as a defence for the actions of govt
agents is at a trial of those agents for manslaughter.
Do you want to live in, and have your kids live in, an America where govt
agents can do things that would get citizens arrested without those agents
being held to the same accountablility as any OTHER citizen?
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:55:11
EID:dca3 206c4ee0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc71
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6369ef35
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
JJH> What was mentioned were the following items which had been
JJH> recently purchaced (all in 1992) by the Davidians:
JJH> 104 upper receivers with barrels for AR-15/M-16
JJH> 8100 rounds 9mm and .223 ammunition for AR-15/M-16
JJH> 20 100 round drum magazines for AR-15/M-16
JJH> 260 AR-15/M-16 magazines
JJH> 30 M-14 magazines
JJH> 1 M-76 grenade launcher
JJH> 2 flar launchers
JJH> 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades
JJH> 40 to 50 pounds of black powder
JJH> 30 pounds of Potassium Nitrate
JJH> 5 pounds powdered Magnesium
JJH> 1 pound Igniter cord
JJH> 91 AR/15 lower receiver units
JJH> 26 hand and long guns of various makes
JJH> 90 pounds of powdered aluminum
JJH> Estimated value: in excess of $44,300
Non of which justified an assault by govt troops.
JJH> A March 10th, 1993 search and seizure at a La Verne, CA residence
JJH> owned by Vernon W. Howell (David Koresh) produced the following
JJH> materials:
JJH> 1) Sulfuric acid
JJH> 2) Nitric acid
JJH> 3) Baking soda
JJH> 4) Saw dust mixed with aluminum powder
JJH> Not only had they ammassed a large arsenal (the above only
JJH> represents one year's addition to what they already owned), but
JJH> as evidenced by the chemical purchaces they were planning on
JJH> manufacturing explosives.
Might justify an investigation; not an assault.
JJH> I'm not totally unsympathetic to your cause, I do feel the BATF
JJH> acted outside their legal powers, the seizure and later stand-off
JJH> were completely bungled and there should have been a criminal
JJH> investigation of those responsible.
That's my focus.
JJH> But don't paint the Davidians as a bunch of innocent lambs.
'I' havn't painted them as anything. I refuted a prejudicial unfounded
assertion about child molestation being the reason for the raid.
JJH> They weren't.
In America, defend the right of people to have an opinion; informed or not.
JJH> The world is a better place without them.
That's prejudicial. In a civilized society, there must be a fair process
to determine if someone is killed.
This is the focus of my concern:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:12:22
EID:80b9 206c5180
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc72
REPLY: 1:157/200 690f0366
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL>I posted a quote from an Asoc Press with citation to found my
TL>TL>claim that the tank drivers should be incicted; have their day in
TL>TL>court.
TL> KDM> Nope, sorry. The tank drivers were doing their duty.
TL>
TL>There is NO legal 'duty' under the U.S. Constitution to follow an
TL>order to run a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and
TL>children.
KDM> This may come as a shock to you, but there are laws not found in
KDM> the Constitution.
You may be too unconsious to shock; but, in America NOTHING is legal if
it dosn't comply with constitutional constraints. Maybe you missed that
day in civics class.
TL>'I was just following orders' didn't work as a defence for
TL>Nazi soldiers at the Nuremburg war crimes trials, and it is no
TL>defence for a U.S. Govt agent.
KDM> What rank? If I remember correctly, that defense is a applicable
KDM> to people under a certain rank.
Nada PeeWee. Even the lowliest of low is required to have, and use, a human
conscience. Even a grunt is REQUIRED to disobey an unlawful order.
TL>TL>Koresh is dead, but these killer govt agents work for us and are
TL>TL>at still large.
TL>
TL> KDM> At large? That's their job.
And our 'job,' as citizens, is to bring them to justice.
TL>
TL>There is no Constitutionaly authorized 'job' description that
TL>includes running tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women and
TL>children.
TL>Can you get over your ignorant prejudice and discover your
TL>conscience?
KDM> I've done that. Waco should not have happened, I agree. I just
KDM> don't think that everyone connected to it should be lined up
KDM> against a wall and shot.
That's right; govt has no authority to order agents to commit deadly acts
against citizens who have not been ajudicated by running tanks thru a residence
occupied with men, women and children.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:28:51
EID:5cb8 206c5380
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc73
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314054ba
David Worrell wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> 06 Mar 96 14:29, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> That would KICK! I would gladly donate $100.00 to these
FR>> unsalted nuts to buy ammunition for such a venture. Just
FR>> think about it! These unsalted nuts take over a National
FR>> Guard Armory and they can really dig in and stay put,
FR>> safeguarding American Liberty.
TP> You boys look sooo cute.... exposing your biases and jacking each
TP> other off in public like this.....
DW> Neither Fred nor I have ever denied being biased against paranoid
DW> little fucks who create an atmosphere like the one that led to the
DW> bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.
Hey, a NEW 'conspiracy' theory. It was ATMOSPHERE bombs!
DW> Why can't you simply have the backbone to stand up and accept your
DW> responsibility for adding to that atmosphere, Parker?
So your 'theory' is that I (acting alone?) attacked the Murrah Federal Building
in Ok City with 'ATMOSPHERE' bombs.
Well that's a nifty distraction from:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:36:56
EID:f9ec 206c5480
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 1459dc74
REPLY: 1:157/200 6a0e0447
Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
KDM> TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
TL> DW> Exactly. The Christians believe in a God without any real
TL> DW> evidence whatsoever. You believe in the malicious intent of
TL> DW> the government without any real evidence whatsoever.
TL>
TL>Censorship being only the most recent UN-real evedence.
KDM> Note the word malicious, please.
Some actually 'BELIEVE' govt officials NEVER have an evil intent.
Enjoy,
Terry
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: All
|Sub: Pornography
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:40:27
EID:4337 206d8d00
MSGID: 1:123/67 3147089a
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
========================================================================
* Forwarded by Shelby Sherman (1:123/67)
* Area : THUMP_IT (Thump It! Religious Debate)
* From : Shelby Sherman, 1:123/67 (13 Mar 96 16:12)
* To : All
* Subj : Pornography
========================================================================
I want all of you kiddies under 18 to leave the room. I am about to
put myself at great risk by uploading this horrible tale on an electronic
medium like this. According to the recently passed Communications Bill,
I could get 2 years in jail and be fined $100,000 for transmitted this
filth.
This is a story of about sex outside the marriage, homosexuality, a man
offering his virgin daughter to an unruly crowd of men, rape, murder
and dismemberment.
I hope you all have strong stomachs. Here goes
*******************************
WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
*******************************
JDG 19:1 In those days Israel had no king.
Now a Levite who lived in a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim
took a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. [2] But she was unfaithful to
him.
She left him and went back to her father's house in Bethlehem, Judah. After
she had been there four months, [3] her husband went to her to persuade
her
to return. He had with him his servant and two donkeys. She took him into
her father's house, and when her father saw him, he gladly welcomed him.
[4] His father-in-law, the girl's father, prevailed upon him to stay; so
he
remained with him three days, eating and drinking, and sleeping there.
JDG 19:5 On the fourth day they got up early and he prepared to leave,
but the girl's father said to his son-in-law, "Refresh yourself with
something to eat; then you can go." [6] So the two of them sat down to eat
and drink together. Afterward the girl's father said, "Please stay tonight
and enjoy yourself." [7] And when the man got up to go, his father-in-law
persuaded him, so he stayed there that night. [8] On the morning of the
fifth day, when he rose to go, the girl's father said, "Refresh yourself.
Wait till afternoon!" So the two of them ate together.
JDG 19:9 Then when the man, with his concubine and his servant, got up
to leave, his father-in-law, the girl's father, said, "Now look, it's almost
evening. Spend the night here; the day is nearly over. Stay and enjoy
yourself. Early tomorrow morning you can get up and be on your way home."
[10] But, unwilling to stay another night, the man left and went toward
Jebus (that is, Jerusalem), with his two saddled donkeys and his concubine.
JDG 19:11 When they were near Jebus and the day was almost gone, the
servant said to his master, "Come, let's stop at this city of the Jebusites
and spend the night."
JDG 19:12 His master replied, "No. We won't go into an alien city, whose
people are not Israelites. We will go on to Gibeah." [13] He added, "Come,
let's try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those
places." [14] So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in
Benjamin. [15] There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat
in
the city square, but no one took them into his home for the night.
JDG 19:16 That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who
was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from
his work in the fields. [17] When he looked and saw the traveler in the
city
square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?"
JDG 19:18 He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a
remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to
Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has
taken me into his house. [19] We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys
and bread and wine for ourselves your servants--me, your maidservant, and
the young man with us. We don't need anything."
JDG 19:20 "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me
supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." [21]
So
he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their
feet, they had something to eat and drink.
JDG 19:22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the
old
man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we
can
have sex with him."
JDG 19:23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my
friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
disgraceful thing. [24] Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine.
I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them
whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
JDG 19:25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his
concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her
throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. [26] At daybreak the
woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at
the
door and lay there until daylight.
JDG 19:27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of
the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine,
fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. [28]
He
said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put
her on his donkey and set out for home.
JDG 19:29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his
concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas
of Israel. [30] Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing has never been seen
or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about
it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"
JDG 20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land
of
Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. [2]
The
leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the
assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with
swords. [3] (The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to
Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened."
JDG 20:4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and
my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. [5] During the
night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending
to
kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. [6] I took my concubine,
cut
her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance,
because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. [7] Now,
all
you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict."
....there's more, but it's too disgusting to print.
-+- GodEdit 0.00
+ Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
========================================================================
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Elephant velvet
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:39:42
EID:6d30 206c7ce0
MSGID: 1:352/266 3145F7E0
MH> doesn't mean that any idea of God is equal to any other. No part of
MH> the elephant felt velvet smooth, for example.
Hmmmm haven't spent much time with elephants have you? They do have areas
that are silky. Usually at the inside of the lower jaw, and near the hollows
behind their front legs. Especially on a young elephant.
The idea of the story, is you can not tell if the other persons view is
just from a different view, or if they ran into the enclosure itself.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Fringe
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:41:19
EID:a837 206c7d20
MSGID: 1:352/266 3145F7E1
MH> characterizes millions of people based on the actions of a tiny
MH> fringe element.
Maybe he's speaking to that fringe and if you don't feel the message applies
to you, just use the enter function.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Diversity and enrichment
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:46:23
EID:41a0 206c7dc0
MSGID: 1:352/266 3145F7E2
NS> I think something like: well, we're getting them
NS> circumcised tomorrow, and then there's the ritual scarifications
NS> for the esoteric African religion we're taking them to on Tuesday,
NS> and at the Native American SunDance we'll get some hooks put in
NS> their chests, then mom's getting the clitorectomy from the Moslem
NS> sect that we're visiting on Friday . . . yeah, you won't recognize
NS> them at all by this time next week!
exposure to ideas is the goal, not mandatory participation by minors in
their parents religion. (Yeah, I know I'll get in trouble with this one
on this echo.... sooooo go ahead and take the bait)
NS> ... Barney and Baby Bop at Jurassic Park = A happy Velociraptor.
Hehehhehehehehhehehhheheeheh great tag line.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Thanks
|Date: 12 Mar 96 16:02:53
EID:3dc8 206c8040
MSGID: 1:352/266 3145F7E3
LB> Here's I version a came across for you:
LB> A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are
LB> livinghere in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who
LB> indulge inconstant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite
LB> and eternal and
Thanks for the version, it now rests happily among my "stollen" texts.
Heheheh I like that story. And my first encounter with it was at about 7.
It may be responsible for my eclective view of life.
Again, thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:14:09
EID:63b9 206aa9c0
MSGID: 3:711/933 3143482a
REPLY: 1:116/19 0485DD84
Dear Al Schroeder,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> "stupit"???
AS> Whatever the "Semtitc" people are.
They are the descendants of Shem, Noah's son.
AS> However, he constantly slams people who are anti-SEMITIC. Such as
AS> yourself.
But I am PRO-Semitic. It is the Jews who are anti-Semitic. The self-styled
Jew is in actuality a Gentile who impersonates the Israelites related
to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They stole the Land of Israel from the Semitic
residents - both Arab and Hebrew Israelite and they persecute and treat
as
very much second-rate citizens the true Israelites in the Land.
How on earth can you call me anti-Semitic when you do not know _who_ these
Semites are? When you read the newspapers about the killing of the Semitic
peoples, why is it the Israeli self-styled Jew who is the guilty party,
and not me who is named? I have no gun, and no army. Unlike the late terrorist
Prime Minister of Israel, I'm not a war criminal who passed acts of Knesset
to maim young Semite children.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:24:58
EID:6efa 206aab00
MSGID: 3:711/933 314348de
Dear Brother Brad,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
BJ> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God.
Amen, there is only one God, not three.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:26:20
EID:74af 206aab40
MSGID: 3:711/933 314349a7
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 313905ef
Dear Kenneth Cavness,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AG>> Satan cannot beget nor can he create. He is a sexless, fallen
AG>> spirit- being. Therefore he had to make use of the beast which was
AG>> closest to man and could even speak. Only after the curse, did the
AG>> serpent lose its human form and become a reptile.
KC> First, you make the claim that the serpent is Satan.
Don't be dishonest. read the quote you are misrepresenting. The serpent
is a beast, he was an animal. Satan is a spirit.
KC> From the Oxford English Dictionary (RESV), annotations:
KC> "3.1: Serpent: an ancient extrabiblical story tells how a serpent
KC> stole the plant which would have given immortality to human beings.
It
KC> was believed that when the snake shed its skin, it was rejuvenated.
KC> Cunning: there is a pun in the Heb. words for cunning and naked(v.7).
KC> Had made: a phrase deliberately used to show that the serpent was only
KC> one among God's many creatures. THE IDEA OF THE SERPENT AS A PRIMEVAL
KC> ADVERSARY OF GOD, INDEED, THE DEVIL, AROSE MUCH LATER (see Wis.2.24);
KC> so too the fixing of blame on the woman arose at a much later time
KC> (Ecclus. 25.24)" [emphasis mine]
This is also both absurd and dishonest with no basis in Scripture.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:30:27
EID:ea06 206aabc0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31434f2d
REPLY: 1:3611/2 0005802f
Hi Jim,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JO> Just plain old greeting from the house of Jim.
Thanks!
JO> From the passages in the Bible; "This is My blood..." and "This is My
JO> flesh...". Seems like a strang choice of words. Another one of those
JO> symbols that are so common in ALL rituals I suppose.
From the Third Ammendment to the American Constitution I read, ``No Soldier
shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house...' It might be argued
by
someone with nothing more to do with his time than argue `this is a strange
choice of words. And perhaps the word "peace" should be "piece" and that
it
is to be hoped that no soldier would ever encounter so barbarious a people
as would quarter him'. The same persn might debate the choice of words from
a weather report that called the weather `crazy'.
AG>> You are confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism.
JO> Curious, what bonafide references to cannabilism do the RCC practice?
The Roman Catholic church teach that after their priest has blessed the
two elements they are miraculously transformed into the actual literal
body of the Lord Jesus Christ. You should read `Fifty Years in the Church
of Rome' by Chinoqy, a priest and friend of Abraham Lincoln, who became
a Christian and led his congregation to the Lord Jesus. In his very interesting
history
he relates numerous instances regarding `Le bon Dieu' Canadian priests took
in a little silver box to sick parishoners. You should read his educational
account.
JO> Just trying to understand behavior,
Here is a portion from one of my radio broadcasts today. This will explain
the strange behaviour:-
Let's look at COMMUNION. Communion means `FELLOWSHIP', it's a TWO-
way conversation or COMMUNICATION in which BOTH parties are in
AGREEMENT. The two parties are God and YOU. NOT God, you and your
PARENTS; God, you and your CHURCH; or God, you and your WIFE. But
God and you _ALONE_. God and ONE individual.
He said, ` How can two walk together except they be AGREED on the
Word?' BEFORE we can COMMUNE with God, we MUST be at ONE with Him,
or in AGREEMENT by FAITH. That's why Jesus instructed us when we
pray, to ask `_THY_ will be done'
In the Bible, Communion is called the Lord's SUPPER. Yet MOST
churches observe it as His BREAKFAST, or His LUNCH. Right back in
Exodus we find out that the TYPE was observed in the EVENING time.
Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper as a memorial to be observed in
the EVENING time, SO did Paul (Mark 14:17; I Corinthians 11:23).
BEFORE we partake of this memorial, we MUST be IN communion, or in
AGREEMENT with the Word. Jesus said if we DON'T observe Communion
we have no PART in Him. And Paul taught that it's DEATH to take it
UNworthily. Only those who are in the FELLOWSHIP of the Spirit.
ONLY those who are genuinely BORN-again are worthy to take the
Lord's Supper.
If we go back to Exodus 12(:43-49) where Moses commanded Israel to
observe an annual _MEMORIAL_ of that first PASSOVER, which was a
TYPE of Calvary and OUR deliverance, He says `it is a NIGHT to be
much observed', NOT a morning. And `no STRANGER or UN-circumcised
male' may keep it, this means ONLY those of the household of faith
who are truly BORN-again may partake of the Lord's Supper.
Israel was to eat the Passover in HASTE, with their lions GIRDED,
their shoes ON their feet, and their staff IN their hand (Exodus
12:11). They were to be READY for the JOURNEY, by which God would
lead them to the Promised Land. And those who take the Communion
TODAY must be PREPARED for the JOURNEY to the Eternal Land of the
Millennium. Yet in a denominational church we'll see CHILDREN take
Communion, MEN who drink ALCOHOL, smoke CIGARETTES, and WOMEN with
CUT hair, PAINTED faces, wearing SHORTS, JEANS, and COMPETING with
men in the work-place yet CALLING themselves Christians and taking
Communion.
Paul said, `He that eats and drinks UNWORTHILY, eats and drinks
DAMNATION to himself, not DISCERNING the Lord's BODY. Because of
THIS many are SPIRITUALLY weak and sickly among you, and many DEAD
while they're alive' (I Corinthians 11:29-30).
The `Lord's Body', Brother or Sister, is NOT that broken fragment
of UNleavened bread, IT'S the LIVING saints. Christians. Oh yes,
it's death NOT to partake Communion, and it's DEATH to take it UN-
worthily.
The bread and wine are SYMBOLS which signify that the partaker is
IN AGREEMENT or ONE with Christ, Who _IS_ the anointed Word. When
Moses fed Israel manna in the Wilderness, this NATURAL bread from
heaven sustained their MORTAL lives. When we partake of the Lord's
Supper, we signify we are ONE with Christ, that SUPERNATURAL Bread
from heaven, which if a man partake by FAITH he'll NEVER die.
This bread is made from WHEAT, the noblest of the grains, SIFTED,
so that the flour is uniform: symbolizing Jesus Christ, `the SAME,
YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOREVER'. Like Christ, it's UNleavened,
mixed with WATER and nothing else. Leaven represents SIN. Nothing
is added TO or taken FROM the pure wheat.
The bread WE prepare for the Lord's Supper is made by HOLY hands.
It's rolled FLAT and thin, then baked in an oven or over a pan. It
is SQUARE or RECTANGULAR bread, and NEVER round. Only pagans have
round bread in their ceremonies. You can find this in your Bibles
and in history books, they made cakes to Astarte the Moon Goddess,
the Queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:19).
Just as we don't run to the shop and buy a loaf of LIGHT bread for
Communion, we don't BUY a bottle of SHERRY from the pub, or GRAPE
juice from the grocer. Juice SOURS whereas WINE has a spirit which
preserves and IMPROVES it as it matures. It TYPES the Holy Spirit
which is a PRESERVER of the SOUL. The wine we use for the Lord's
Supper is FERMENTED from grapes crushed by HOLY hands ... or feet.
As the spirit in NATURAL wine stimulates man's MORTAL spirit, the
HOLY Spirit stimulates our SOUL by REVELATION.
Now God is NOT double-minded, and His Word comes to us through His
servants the prophets. The test for a prophet requires his every
prophecy will be CONSISTENT with the Word of PREVIOUSLY vindicated
prophets.
Jesus was a prophet. Do YOU believe that? He was the GOD-prophet
of whom Moses said, `the Lord thy God will raise up a prophet like
unto me'. Paul was ALSO a prophet. Jesus said, `This is My BODY,
and this is My BLOOD of the New Testament'. In fact the bread was
BREAD, and the wine remained WINE. The bread REPRESENTED his Body,
or the WORD of God, and the wine REPRESENTED the Holy Spirit which
is the LIFE of Christ, for the life is in the blood and Christians
ARE the blood of Christ by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Paul taught us that the bread and wine are just that:- BREAD, and
WINE. They are NOT flesh, NOR are they blood (which Christians are
FORBIDDEN to eat). They're SYMBOLS we partake in REMEMBRANCE of
what Christ HAS done for US. This indicates we're ONE with Him;
NOW seated in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.
Whilst you're welcome to take the letter of the Words Jesus spoke,
the LETTER is DEATH. The letter KILLETH, but the Spirit gives LIFE
through FAITH or UNDERSTANDING of what Jesus _MEANT_! The Life of
Christ is in the MEANING or LOGOS of the Word.
Baptism, believing, or the Lord's Supper are NO different. You can
certainly observe them according to the LETTER, but without faith
it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God. If we can get to heaven by LEARNING
some man-made creed and rehearsing form and ritual then we're back
under the LAW, and faith is void. `Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?' (Galatians 3:2).
JO> + Origin: Dixieland BBS / USR 14400 all lines (1:3611/2)
Give my regards to Dixie, and tell 'em I'll be there ere long.
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:54:52
EID:cafb 206aaec0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31435093
REPLY: 1:207/212 9545212a
Dear Karen Davis,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KD> Some of our fundies here have stated that the supposed deaths of
KD> early Christians for their god is evidence that it is true.
Then they are fundamentally wrong.
KD> I've found another faith, with far more evidence that the people
KD> actually DIED [it happened in the last century]. The Baha'i. Consider
KD> also that Joseph Smith and many other Mormons were killed in the 19th
KD> and 20th centuries without recanting their faith.
Ergo anyone who dies for any crackpot belief evinces that belief is the
Absolute. And their god/s the only god/s.
KD> Unless you're willing to admit that those faiths are also "true" you
KD> have to accept that people will die for what they believe in
KD> regardless of evidence. Thus people dying for a religion is NOT
KD> evidence of its inherent truth.
Axiomatic. Only a simpleton would claim the contrary. It would demonstrate
Emperor Hirohito was, after all, the Creator.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:59:14
EID:7d99 206aaf60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3143521b
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 31376fab
Dear Paul Churchill,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AG>> In 1938 there was 15,688,259 Jews in the world - according to the
AG>> World Almanac for 1947. This figure was given to the World Almanac
AG>> by the American Jewish Committee and the Jewish Statistical Bureau
AG>> of of the Synagogues of America.
PC> I must admit, I am really puzzled by you. I am not sure if you
PC> are truly stuipid enough to believe this shit,
This `shit' as you term it, was the official statistics of American Jewry
whose most eminent historians, writers, and scholars have always been at
odds with the absurdities of the self-styled Jewish propaganda.
PC> Here is the flaw in your logic. Both ESTIMATES were probably arrived
PC> at by different means.
Tell that to the American Jewish Committee and also the Jewish Statistical
Bureau of the Synagogues of America. The `logic' is theirs and the `logic'
is based on the only accurate science.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 10 Mar 96 22:06:36
EID:8d17 206ab0c0
MSGID: 3:711/933 314353b0
Dear David Johnston,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
DJ> The serpent was Adam's sexual member.
So THAT'S whom you seranade in the bathroom. Does your `serpent' speak back
to you? Is it on its belly, or does it still have its legs?
This is about the most absurd suggestion I have ever heard.
DJ> We are never told, even by implication, that Adam was not Cain's
DJ> father.
Really? I think Genesis 1:11 is quite explicit, also I John 1:12. And, were
you a seeker of truth, a thinker who actually could `receive the Word with
all readiness of mind, then searched the scriptures, whether these things
were so' then I would go into further detail and show you more Scriptures.
DJ> Oh, and since Eve was Adam's clade, anyone who was her offspring was
DJ> related to Adam.
Tommy rot!
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:30:44
EID:5fd9 206c13c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 639a39ff
On Mar 04 00:59 96, David Johnston of 1:342/14 wrote:
DJ> The serpent was Adam's sexual member.
It talked?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Dutch cats
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:25:52
EID:cdc9 206c1b20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 639aba9e
* Original From: Glenn Joyner, 1:124/7015
* Original Date: Mar 09 20:25
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
* Originally By: Don Teal
* Originally Re: Eat Me
* Original Area: The DataBank Local - General
LEIDEN, Netherlands - A reclusive cat fancier was all but consumed by
his 15 pets after he died leaving them without food. Police said Frans
Heemskerk's body was almost completely eaten up by his cats. Police found
Heemskerk's remains Saturday after his neighbors alerted them they
hadn't seen the 69-year-old man for two weeks. Heemskerk is believed to
have died of natural causes up to three weeks before police discovered
his remains. His cats would come and go through a window, but return to
the
house to feed off their owner's body.
--- FMail/386 1.02+
* Origin: The DataBank * Exploring the Unknown * (214)363-2896 * (1:124/7015)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: All
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:49:50
EID:bfa2 206c1e20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 639af221
* Original To : All, 1:30873/2
* Original From: Glenda Stocks, 1:330/201
* Original Area: I_UFO
* Original Date: Mar 07 10:13
* Forwarded on by J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
[Like so much of Glenda's stuff, this one is fairly lengthy.
But if this one doesn't knock you to the floor in hysterics.
yer already dead - J.J. Hitt]
Here I go again.... I am always finding hidden meanings in the
lyrics
of songs. This time, it is an old Beatles song, that for some reason,
when I heard it a few weeks ago, I suddenly realized WHO they were
describing. Remember this song by the Beatles?
The Beatles: Abbey Road (album)
Come Together
Here come ol' flat top
He come groovin' up slowly
He got Joo Joo eyeball
He one holy roller
He got hair down to his knees
Got to be a joker he just do what he please
He wear no shoeshine
He got toe jam football
He got monkey finger
He shoot Coca-Cola
He say "I know you, you know me"
One thing I can tell you is you got to be free
Come together right now over me
He bag production
He got walrus gum-boot
He got Ono sideboard
He one spinal cracker
He got feet down below his knee
Hold you in his armchair
You can feel his disease
Come together right now over me
[ Right! ]
He roller coaster
He got early warning
He got muddy water
He one Mojo filter
He say "One and one and one is three"
Got to be good looking 'cause he's so hard to see
Come together right now over me
[ oooah! Come together, yea ]
[ Come together, yea ]
[ Come together, yea ]
etc.
The lyrics tell us in the first stanza who is being described.
> Here come ol' flat top
> He come groovin' up slowly
> He got Joo Joo eyeball
> He one holy roller
The person here being described is none other than Jesus Christ!
(there she goes again!)
Okay, but lookit, flat top... there is a round piece of cloth that
jewish men wear on the top of their heads; I just saw Clintion wearing
one at the Israeli embassy the other day. Flat-top.
He has "Joo Joo" eyeball, makes it as plain as can be that the man is
a Jew. Simple, eh?
To clinch the description, he is a Holy Roller... who else could he
be?
Now, the point of this song is telling a story in TIME SEQUENCE. The
song begins by telling you about a person, Jesus, and that he is
COMING... he is groovin' up slowly. He is groovin because he is hip,
he is with the times, a regular joe, our big bro'. The first stanza
describes him definitively, so you know who he is.
He is groovin' up "slowly" because it has been 2000 years.
> He got hair down to his knees
Now, if you had any doubts, look at how long his hair is. Immediately
it comes to mind that his hair was thought to be only "shoulder
length", and that is the point! Because SINCE he left and went to the
Godhead, his hair has grown to now where it is down to his knees.
Again, this story has TIME passage in it.... it is telling you that
time has passed since he left.
> Got to be a joker he just do what he please
This line tells you that he has all power in earth and heaven. Of
course my interpretation is based on Biblical connotations. Also, in
the tarot, what does the JOKER denote. Those of you who are familiar
with the tarot card deck, can explain further the significance of him
being equated with the Joker card. I remember the Joker card being
the card signifying "CHOICE" but I may be wrong. If so, some meaning
here is given to the idea that Jesus emodies the balance of Spirit and
Will (choice) and as such, he does what he pleases. Do what thou will
if it harm none? I have seen that we are getting many lessons on
restoring our individual wills.
> He wear no shoeshine
He does not wear shoes - probably sandals.
> He got toe jam football
I got alot of different things on this one. For one, if you play
football with no shoes, or with sandals, you will likely jam your toe!
Also, there was a movie about Christ, in which the writers had Jesus
playing football with the disciples, as a means to convey the humanity
of Jesus.
Also, in some slang "toejam" is the funky stuff that gets between your
toes, and Jesus washed his disciples feet, teaching us that whoever is
to be greatest among you, must be the servant of all. If he has been
washing our feet (servicing us) all these years, then he has neglected
his own feet, and they're full of toejam! Kinda funky, but it fits.
> He got monkey finger
For those who think man is descended from apes, this line shows his
humanity again.
> He shoot Coca-Cola
I dont know about this line, except that he is with the times,
although I wonder if he really likes Pepsi better. At any rate,
it could also be a clue that we should understand the significance
of the development of cola-tonics and our drug problem with
cocaine today....
> He say "I know you, you know me"
He knows each of us, as in "behold I stand at the door and knock".
And we know him, who he is, because his consciousness, Christ
consciousness has been anchored in the Earth.
> One thing I can tell you is you got to be free
This is his one line message. Notice, "one thing", the word, "one".
"got to be free", the word "got" denotes an obligation. Are we
obliged to be free? This admonition implies that we are in bondage.
The truth shall set us free. Restore our own individual wills?
> Come together right now over me
The refrain from the song, again implies that this is Jesus speaking.
Who else would invite us to come together "over" him? Over his Christ
consciousness. Here, he is talking about "unity". Come together,
stick together (like Alex Collier said in his talk). Right Now - the
eternal Now, every Now moment.
> He bag production
This one was weird..... the first thing that came to my mind was an
episode of Star Trek, in which an intelligence described humans as
"ugly bags of mostly water". But when you think of the definition of
bag, as a "container", then I think this refers to the BODY. Folks
who read RUOW, will immediately see this as the FOURTH member of the
Godhead, who is Body, or FORM, of the Father of Manifestation, who is
likened to God the Father's Brother, (hence Jesus' Uncle). Anyways,
this line is talking about Jesus' incarnation in a body, and the
production of bodies for us, for our spirits to use to experience in
the earth. I know it sounds like a stretch, but it is what came to
mind when I looked at it. I had thought that they were singing, "He
bad production", like he is a bad number, i.e. what he did was a super
play - production, drama, etc. but the lyric writers say that they
were saying "bag" production.
> He got walrus gum-boot
> He got Ono sideboard
I have nothing on these... no insights at all. Anyone have anything
on these?
> He one spinal cracker
This line is talking about the kundalina energy force, coming up the
spine. Also, our studies have talked about the "serpentine" nature of
this energy. He "cracked" the code of how to use this energy, and
transformed himself in 3 days; the resurrection.
> He got feet down below his knee
This line and the next ones, are showing us a scene in Heaven, with
Jesus "seated" at the right hand of God. The line emphasizes that he
has feet below his knee, his knees are bent while in a seated
position, but take a closer look at his feet. His feet are supposed
to be resting on a foot-stool. In the Bible, it says that we are
supposed to make his enemies his foot-stool, BEFORE he will come back.
The way to do that, is for us to find the truth of what the so-called
enemies have been doing to us, as once we reveal that truth, they will
no longer be able to deceive us and steal our wills.
> Hold you in his armchair
> You can feel his disease
If he were to hold you in his armchair, seated on the right side of
God, then you would be very close to Jesus, and you would know that he
is dis - eased about the situation on Earth; i.e. uncomfortable.
Notice the word "feel", again harkening back to getting back your will
- how you really "feel" about things tells you your own will. In
order to be free, as he suggested earlier, you need to restore your
will, and know the truth about what is going on. He is dis-eased
about it, and is groovin' up slowly, to come back.
> Come together right now over me
> [ Right! ]
> He roller coaster
This is the line that I heard a few weeks ago, that started me to
thinking about this song. The reason is that I had been talking to
Ron Pappas on the phone a few weeks ago, and I described how events
were accelerating around the world, was just like we were on a roller
coaster ride, and slowly climbing up that one, largest, hill, and
nearing the top, to be plunged down into the unfolding events of this
age. We have hit that part of this "ride".
> He got early warning
And then when I heard this line, I said to myself, that's Jesus who
has early warning. And he did give us plenty of warnings.
> He got muddy water
The only thing I got from this is that he is/can be a bridge over
troubled water for us. (which he has for me anyways).
> He one Mojo filter
He told me to tell you that this one means he can help you discern
(filter out) the various spirits or entities that communicate with
you. This discernment of spirits is taught as one of the gifts of
the Holy Spirit in the Bible.
The next part is the climax of this TIME sequenced story.
> He say "One and one and one is three"
Here he is speaking of the Trinity. But in the ruow books, we
consider these three to be a family of God the Father (Spirit), God
the Mother (Will), and the Son (Heart) who is Jesus. Here is talking
about how "two is company, but three is a crowd" which is what you say
when you have three people, and two are a couple, and the odd man out,
does not have his own date. Jesus needs/wants a Wife!
> Got to be good looking 'cause he's so hard to see
Com'n girls, this line says he got to be good lookin', and I think
this is why he is saying here in these lines that he is looking for a
wife. Of course, this is biblical, as the Church is equated as the
Bride of Christ, that he is returning to marry.
> Come together right now over me
> [ oooah! Come together, yea ]
> [ Come together, yea ]
> [ Come together, yea ]
Seems to me that since the Will polarity has been denied that it is
fitting that the church is considered female, and that women could
take it upon themselves to help restore the Will and prepare
themselves like as a Bride to Christ, without spot or blemish.
Anyways, I suddenly found this song to be prophetic and to have deep
meanings. I am pretty sure of who ole flat top is.
nada
--- GEcho 1.02+
* Origin: send list to listserv@xbn.shore.net (1:330/201)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 11:44:55
EID:6834 206c5d80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 639f77ce
On Mar 11 08:21 96, Joanna Amren of 1:387/750 wrote:
->> Do me a favor: read the book now with your new outlook on
->> things. You may agree with me this time; it's not a story
->> about a big fish, but a comedy that makes fun of a stubborn,
->> head-up-his-butt preacher who takes his religion just a
->> little too seriously.
JA> Already did it.:) I guess I see it as a story about some
JA> preacher-dude named Jonah who thought he could escape his
JA> calling by running from it, but his god showed himhe was
JA> wrong and blah blah...just like a lot of fables I've read.
JA> I guess I have to agree with you, yes.:) I read it this
JA> times like I would read the Iliad or something. Weird,
JA> huh?:)
I've always looked at the book as a series of progressively
ludicrous situations. It starts out with his replying to
God's call by saying "to hell with this" and catching a bus
in the other direction. Then there is the famous "throw me
off the boat" scene and it ends with him argueing with God
over a fruit.
Not totally unlike how I view the story of Samson and Delilah.
Everytime he spends the night over at her place he wakes up
in the morning with the Philistines all over his ass. Yet
somehow ol' Sam never puts two and two together to realize
that there is a connection between the two events. The guy
is dumber than Popeye.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Cookies as cures.
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:29:52
EID:22ee 206c8ba0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a27564
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893C0EAD
On Mar 09 12:29 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
SM>> The products of seeds of the genus __Theobrannica__ ARE an
SM>> ideology!! God Dan it!! :-)
DC> No, choclate isn't an ideology, it's a way of life...
No! It's a RELATIONSHIP!
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:44:54
EID:d128 206c8d80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a29a60
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 313c6944
On Mar 03 14:37 96, John Musselwhite of 1:134/67 wrote:
KC>> 5) Become a nun
JM> I have a transexual friend who tried to do that. The
JM> Catholic church apparantly wasn't interested. She's now a
JM> stripper.
That would make for a great movie.
Do candidates for nun-hood have to pass a pelvic exam?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: churches
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:52:28
EID:d083 206c8e80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a2b010
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 171adbf7
On Mar 05 14:34 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:
KW> J.J. is probably as close to you as s\he is to me, remember
KW> TX is a big state (I'm closer to LA than I am to Dallas).
Nashville is maybe 50 miles further away than El Paso.
(Dont have exact numbers, I just took a pair of dividers to
the map on the wall.)
But if the second half of your statement: Do you mean the LA
in California? It's a lot further off from you than Dallas.
Though neither of them can be far enough for my tastes.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 13 Mar 96 02:57:27
EID:37cb 206d1720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a7ab9b
REPLY: 1:236/20.0 314430e6
On Mar 11 08:55 96, Ed Dutkiewicz of 1:236/20 wrote:
>> Do you have a reference for this? Carbon-14 isn't an "old"
>> form of carbon, it's an UNSTABLE isotope. The older something
>> is, the *LESS* C-14 it will contain.
>> I'd be very interested in learning where you picked up this
>> little tid-bit.
ED> OOPS. You are correct that older organic material hass less
ED> carbon-14. I should have said that the burning of fossil
ED> fuels contribute to lower amount of C-14, which imitates a
ED> lower ratio of C(14) to carbon 12, which gives a false *old
ED> age* reading.
So maybe you got it backwards, just a little oopsie, huh?
That still shouldn't stop you from naming your source.
Where did you get this supposed information?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 13 Mar 96 03:14:20
EID:fb1d 206d19c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a7d1af
On Mar 09 06:56 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
JH>> A SPACE ALIENS DATE BOOK
NS> I'll have you know that I got a pain in my side from
NS> laughing at this one. }:) Nice to see that SOMEONE still
NS> has the ol' work ethic around here.
I haven't seen any George Mooth's robo-posts lately.
I'm disappointed. I've got almost a month's worth of
material lined up and I need him as an excuse to post
it all.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 13 Mar 96 04:00:36
EID:4a8e 206d2000
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a83b5e
On Mar 06 12:17 96, Brad Jackson of 1:244/108 wrote:
BJ> Some people today don't take the time to read the bible,
BJ> which is God's word. They assume that their Pastor is
BJ> telling the truth. You must follow up on everything that is
BJ> be taught to you.
What is firmament?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 13 Mar 96 04:02:58
EID:d0fe 206d2040
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a844de
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 313e657f
On Mar 07 04:25 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
RS>> Awwww, just when it was getting good. Are you off to kill
RS>> more bears in the Alaskan wilds?
DW> Only if he can make a bear laugh itself to death. He's come
DW> close to that several times with me.
Prewett is out to answer the age old question:
Is the Bear Catholic?
It'll take him awhile, he's being careful to not step in any of
the piles of pope-shit.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 13 Mar 96 04:12:32
EID:bbe3 206d2180
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63a85b2c
On Mar 11 04:14 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JH>> Banking is regulated by the Federal government. Credit
JH>> Unions are a form of banking and will usually indicate that
JH>> they are legitimate by including the word "Federal" in
JH>> their name.
JB> These are all true. But here in Charleston, one of the
JB> requirements for membership in a 'Federal' credit union has
JB> been a 'Federal' job. If you don't work for the government
JB> in some capacity, you can't get an account.
I hope someone more knowlgeable on the subject responds to this.
It doesn't seem right, but I'm not interested in it enough to
persue it any further.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Mark Craig
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 12 Mar 96 23:41:00
EID:e542 206cbd20
PID: RA 2.02 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56e4a90c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63957271
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
JH>123/1 43 67 305 318
JH>On Mar 08 22:55 96, Mark Craig of 1:123/610 wrote:
JH> MC> King David and his Luciferian Establishment elite, want to
JH> MC> make you his slave and put you on their "global
JH> MC> plantation."
JH> I'll ignore this racist drivel because the second part of
JH>your
JH> message raised a point that I have always wondered about:
JH> MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of
JH> MC> the world, prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
JH> According to the standard Premillenialist view of
JH>Revelation, the
JH> Millenium will be 1000 years of utopian existence (a literal
JH>Heaven
JH> on Earth). BUT... for some unexplained reason at the end of
JH>those
JH> 1000 years God will fuck everything up by letting the Devil
JH>loose
JH> upon the Earth.
JH> Why? What possible sense could this make? Why does God feel
JH>he has
JH> to prove himself to somebody by kicking Satan's ass a second
JH>time?
JH> Is it that God just plain enjoys destroying things?
God works in strange ways.
---
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:48:01
EID:d152 206b4e00
MH@> MH@> TH> Tell me, what is metaphor/perspective or not literal in your
bibl
MH@> MH@> TH> If you do not know, aren't you guessing? If you do know, how
do y
MH@> MH@> TH> know? Have you asked the author?
MH@> MH@> You can't know for certain. You can make *educated* guesses, though.
MH@> TH> So your God is a guess. Please *_NEVER_* pass your guess as fact.
MH@> No, God is not a "guess." I've been posting here for two years and
I
MH@> have no patience left for people who score points by twisting my words.
MH@> If you have any genuine interest in a dialogue, know that that's the
MH@> fastest way to be added to my rapidly growing twit filter. If you have
MH@> no interest in an open dialogue, then I don't want to waste my time
MH@> with you anyway.
My my, where is your patience Job? Until you can show me your God
it is an assumption (guess). An open dialoge could be started if you
would answer my questions to _MY_ satisfaction. I shall not filter nor
call you a twit (is that name of Christian origin?).
MH@> MH@> TH> It would be dishonest to say a part is not literal unless
you kno
MH@> MH@> TH> what the author ment. If religious text are to be reguarded
as
MH@> TH> factual
MH@> MH@> TH> why would you say part of it isn't factual?
MH@> MH@> Who says it's all to be regarded as factual? I don't know of
MH@> TH> If there is any guess work the "divine inspiration" by an
MH@> TH> omniscient being is a joke.
MH@> No, it simply means that you aren't willing to make any effort to
MH@> understand it. Rather than seeking God's truth with an open mind and
MH@> honest heart, you're demanding God deliver himself to you on a platter
MH@> -- as if you're doing HIM some kind of big favor.
My brain processes information. My heart processes blood. You have given
my mind nothing to process. Show my eyes your God!
I have gone way out of my way to understand your God. I am not going to
brainwash myself into believing something that doesn't exist.
I am doing you a favor by patiently waiting for you to answer my
questions.
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Jesus ... not 'of Nazareth.' _The Messianic Legecy_
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{46 Days Left}
* Origin: The CooKoo's Nest (1:3814/405)
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:48:04
EID:e8d3 206b4e00
MH@> MH@> MM> comes.... I admire those who respect others expression of
faith,
MH@> TH> and a
MH@> MH@> MM> disappointed when I run across those who scream "My way or
the
MH@> MH@> MM> highway!"
You have not shown respect for my beliefs.
MH@> MH@> If you strongly believe something is true, should you be restrained
MH@> MH@> from at least discussing it with people? I don't mean legislating
MH@> MH@> religious belief -- which can't be really done anyway -- but free
MH@> MH@> speech and open debate.
MH@> TH> Have you called/written to your gov't reps. yet to tell them you
MH@> TH> do not want religion legislated and to repleal the current religious
MH@> TH> legislation?
MH@> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples' property?
MH@> No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
Why do you twist what I say? It appears that you do just what you
don't want others to do to you. Hmm "do unto others as you would
have them do unto you". So much for Christian morals.
Property laws are not religion based. It would be arrogant to assume
your commandments were the 1st law.
Give to everyone that asketh thee, and from him that taketh away
thy goods ask not again. Luke 6:30
MH@> To just what laws do you refer?
"in God we trust" added in the '50s. God swearing in court, public
officials. "Blue" laws. Tax exemptions for religious everything.
Money appropriated to pay for chaplain(s) and/or activities related to
promotion of state sponsored religion. etc, etc.
* OLX 2.1 TD * We paid for this stuff so thanks for nothing. H. Simpson
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{46 Days Left}
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Mar 96 23:49:00
EID:1983 206cbe20
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 24179f34
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 140f9aae
> Styx Allum wrote in a message to Jim Staal:
>> Does that mean I have to come back???
> SA> No, because you obviously never left.
> Sure speaks volumes about the word of a fundy.
...If he is actually as dumb as he portrays.
That fundy babble of his might well be an act by someone doing
his very best to appear foolish enough as to believe it.
It's quite a convincing act; but perhaps played TOO well...
One can only HOPE that it is only an act.
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 00:01:01
EID:f6d8 206d0020
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 24179f35
REPLY: 1:246/148@fidonet 2388d381
> Am I getting out?
Not enough, or you wouldn't be here with the rest of us. ;-D
> Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
Use mIRC to sign onto undernet.org, and /join #holysmoke
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 13 Mar 96 00:08:02
EID:28ee 206d0100
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 24179f36
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31450FE9
> BJ> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
> BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is
your
> BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
The very same place that evidence exists which asserts that
Superman comic books are fiction.
100 Billion people could believe that Superman exists/existed.
It would change nothing of whether or not he does/did.
Fiction is fiction. Fact is fact.
"You can twist perceptions.
Reality won't budge" -Neil Peart
"Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief" - M. Burge
> * Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX *
We've had a "Ten Forward BBS" linked to HolySmoke from the Olympic
peninsula in Washington. Wow. Deja vu.
---
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 18:29:03
EID:3297 206b93a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3145e5da
REPLY: 1:228/87.0 313fa8e5
-=> Quoting Lon S. Mabon to All <=-
LSM> Interesting origin lines here, folks. Keep tabs on those posting
LSM> times, Fredric...this just might be a new 'staal' alias:
(etc)
LSM> ! Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031
(1:228/87)
Hey, Jim...if you want us to act as if you are not here, DO NOT POST
HERE. Otherwise, you will look like a simple-minded fundy jerk (which
many here are inclined to think anyway).
Sue
... It's ALWAYS dark if you never open your eyes!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 11 Mar 96 18:54:21
EID:e156 206b96c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3145e5db
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CF1B16
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> Everybody understands Mickey Mouse. Few understand Herman Hesse. Only
SA> a hand full understood Albert Einstein. And nobody understood Emperor
SA> Norton.
SA> -Slogan of NORTON CABAL - S.F.
AS> Ah, but he was the only Emperor in history who taxed nobody, waged
AS> no wars, executed nobody in his name. As the judge who ruled
AS> whether he was insane or not said, "Would that all emperors were
AS> that insane." (If I'm remembering right.)
And you wonder why nobody in this insane world understood him? (at least
by the above claim)
Sue
... The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:45:27
EID:24af 206b6da0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 fd33962d
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6354a7ad
On 06 Mar 96, Martin Goldberg wrote:
JB> Avenge does not of _necessity_ mean "kill" or "slaughter."
JB> Enslaving the Midianites, extracting tribute, imprisoning
MG> In the context of the times and in what is written int he bible it
By "context," you mean "interpretation using additional reasoning," and
not "literally written."
MG> does. Does your religion blind you so badly that you cannot or
Haw! "[My] religion?" What do you know of _my_ religion? You surely
haven't touched a fragment of it _yet_, even when -told-.
MG> not see this? Had Moses gone out to the hebrews and commanded them
to
MG> kill, shouldn't your god have done something about it? The answer is
MG> obvious. God ordered and wnated the killings.
Whatever the actuality was (or if it was even an actuality at all
instead of a legend), repeating your error vis-a-vis "[my]" god won't
get you any points. (*grin*) I don't really care who's being IMprecise
on what side of a theological argument. I dislike the IMprecision
itself, regardless of the belief-system of who's doing it.
MG> So, you require everything to be written out, black and white like the
MG> worst of the fundies. There is no room for thinkers with this
F = m*a. That's pretty black-and-white, isn't it? There are
_thousands_ of such black-and-white formulae in science. If an argument
is to be held, I generally like the precision. Whether that's a
"fundie" characteristic or not makes no difference to me. Or to you,
apparently. The (Bible) text directly says a thing in literal words, or
it does not say that thing in literal words. What you said it says, it
does _not_ say in literal words, and you might as well stop trying to
defend your _interpretation_ of what it says as if it were _what_ it
says.
MG> attitude. Your demand that the bible be explicit on this reminds me
MG> of someone with an agenda. I note with amusement the exchange between
(*grin*) I have no demand that the Bible be explicit. You made the
claim it said something; I pointed out that it didn't say that
something. That's that. You're free to do all the _interpretation_ you
like. I'm free to point out the error in precision, if you make a
misstatement like the one you made.
MG> your self and Hector about the "Universal Conciousness" or what ever
MG> you call it. I certainly don't see that spelled out anywhere.
Nor will you. It isn't spelled out. It's extrapolated from scientific
experiment vis-a-vis the character of the quantum objects of which the
Universe is made.
MG> So again, I have to ask you...if Moses got it wrong, why didn't god
MG> say something to him about it?
Who cares? The whole thing's an untrustworthy mishmash of myth, legend,
poetry and illustrative story. The issue between you and me was and is
solely over your claim that it said something it doesn't say. I'm not
trying to _justify_ God's actions, or even justify His _existence_; I'm
pointing out that for all your anti-whatever rhetoric, you were in this
instance no more precise with your Bible-objection than the typical
fundie is with his science-objections.
You were taken to task in order to _improve_ your ability to argue
effectively with the fundies, and advised not to be so "free" with the
items chosen to support your argument. You're failing to see that, or
perhaps your ego's too big (like that of a fundie) to accept minor
polishing from one experienced with their (the cretinists') own
distortions.
JB> immediately. I am about as far from being a fundie as one
JB> can get without turning into an atheist. Fact. Baldfaced
MG> Your constant whimpering making excuses for a murdering god indicates
MG> to me that you feel a need to defend him. Fundie or not, you are a
I have a need to defend the truth, Bud. You didn't tell it. God has no
need for defenders. He exists if He exists, and doesn't if He doesn't.
(Nobody I've ever heard of has been able to prove anything either way.)
As to my "constant whimpering," I don't recall _ever_ having dealt with
the issue you raised, before. All _I_ did was, out of idle curiosity,
look up the passage you mentioned, and found that it didn't say exactly
what you said it said. I told you about that, and you choked and ran
your Ego up the pole. Not my problem. You don't give a damn about
being precisely correct when you argue with the fundies? Fine with me;
I've _done_ my job with you. You just ignore me and try to justify
yourself, JUST like a fundie taken to task when _he's_ caught bending
things a little because it suits his argument to do so.
I will tell you this: over the years, one of the most fascinating things
I've discovered is that there isn't much difference between the attitude
of a fundie and the attitude of a fundie-atheist, when it comes to
either one being accused of making little mistakes in reasoning.
MG> deist and when the call comes to defend your god from his obvious acts
MG> of terrorism, you answer the call.
a) I am not a deist, I'm a theist. My theism is similar to Martin
Gardner's, who calls himself a "philosophical theist."
b) the god you're referring to is the god of the Bible, which I think is
a grossly distorted view of the real one, made up to look like He
supported the actions of the men in those times, nearly all of whom had
_political_ agendas.
So you might as well quit referring to Him as "[my]" god. MY "God" is a
much more complex and far broader Thing than the limited and provincial
volcano-god reported in the Bible. I told you once. Now this is twice.
The third time it appears true that you can't read, or choose to ignore
what you read from me, I won't bother with correcting your prejudicial
and ignorant assumption.
MG> Do you think I'm stupid? Your fundie like jump to defend your god
MG> shows me that you indeed have an agenda.
Show me someone who doesn't. You've merely failed to accurately figure
out WHAT my agenda is. You've got it really bad-wrong SO far.
I defended no god. I defended accuracy, a lack of which I saw you were
obviously suffering from, once I looked at what you suggested the poster
you were talking to look at. I pinned you on _your_ mistake, not on
your attack on his God.
Attack away. More power to you. But in future, _TRY_ to do it with
more strict honesty, more careful reading, and less overweening ego.
MG> You think. As a theist, you have shown that you have the ability to
MG> carve out the words of the bible to suit your own meaning. Very
MG> amusing, but hardly surprising.
Oh, bullshit. The readership can read it for themselves. There's not
_that_ much difference between various Bibles. It says what I said it
says, not what _you_ said it says. I could care less whether what it
says is _true_ or not, but I do care when you, supposedly working for
'_our_ side,' misuse what you find and mislead about what is actually
written.
All you've been is accused of imprecision, and you're _bitching_ about
it when it's obvious from the baldfaced text that it's true. Fine
representative of reason _you've_ been.
(*grin*) Have a _nice_ day.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 14:22:37
EID:06b6 206b72c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0b084547
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864058
On 08 Mar 96, Jim Germiquet wrote:
EF> Well I'd have to see an example of....Oh wait a minute. Oh I see.
EF> Sure, you're right. Well I'll beaSonofabitch. Thanks for pointing that
JG> Don't you just hate it when someone completely ignores the point you
JB> It's never a good idea to let a debate opponent "get away with" any
JB> _inaccuracy_. As you perhaps know, debates are about winning debates,
JB> not about truth or honesty, but this means also that if the opponent
JG> ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JG> I guess that is why evolution and religion and politics are always
JG> being debated :-)
Got __THAT__ right.
JG> I don't really like debates like that and would prefer discussions.
It
JG> isn't as important to "win" and use cheap shots to do so.
I agree.
JB> accurate version of same.... 1 in 1,000,000 is quite different from
1
JB> in 33,000, wouldn't you agree?
JG> But if you really want to be accurate I bet 1 in 1,000,000 is NOT the
JG> actual chance. I am sure it would be something like 1 in
JG> 1,276,823.8562238 chance :-)
JG> You see to ignore the point being made by picking on some IRRELEVANT
JG> technicality, just shows you were unable to argue with the persons
In this case, the constant, visible, and repeated use of erroneous
"number" arguments by creationists makes this not such an IRRELEVANT
technicality. I know what you mean, but you'll have to trust me, that
pointing out thet these distortions arte not rare occurrences; they're
_legion_ in cretinist argument.
JB> (I think I _did_ address more than just this, but either way, I don't
JB> see that it's necessarily a "questionable debating tactic" to point
JB> out an actual-factual inaccuracy. Why do you think this is not a
JB> proper action for a debater?)
JG> As I said above, it depends on the motive, IF the person shows that
JG> the technicality nullifies the point being made it is acceptable, but
JG> it is just being used to point out the error in the technicality, and
JG> get the attention away from the point being made, then it is a
JG> questionable debating tactic.
I wasn't. The factual wrongness of a 1mm^2 fly "jumped out at me," and
I chose merely to respond to that. I didn't mean for it to go _this_
far.... (*grin*)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... And God said: E = «mvý - Zeý/r ...and there *WAS* light!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 14:27:10
EID:300a 206b7360
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 8caa6057
On 06 Mar 96, DAVID RICE wrote:
>DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence
>DR> for gods?
JB> No, I mean the complete and total lack of evidence of the
JB> absence of God[sic] (or "gods," as you're so fond of putting
JB> it).
DR> Oooh. Very good. There is a complete and total lack of evidence
DR> that unicorns do NOT exist, therefore they do. Wow. Such a
DR> cartoon world you must live in.
Not much different from yours, I see. Since _I_ did not say "therefore
they do," you must have gotten that from the cartoonist drawing you.
JB> The atheist stance is no more useful in philosophical
JB> argument than the theist one.
DR> There is no "atheist stance."
(*Guffaw!*)
JB> Neither has a currently testable scientific leg to stand
JB> on.
DR> You are being sillier than usual. How the bloody hell does
DR> the lack of belief in the gods even LEND ITSELF TO "TESTING?"
DR> Who ever claimed a lack of belief is "testable?"
Belief isn't testable. Some things believed _in_ are testable. Believe
the Sun'll be there when you wake up tomorrow? You can test that.
Believe that you can influence matter with your mind? You can test
that. Do you have a LACK of belief that bacteria can modify themselves?
You can TEST to see, and thereby have your LACK of belief impacted.
Now, consistent with what you probably meant: if you've a LACK of belief
vis-a-vis some thing, and someone comes up to you and says "this thing
exists," you must either maintain your stance (ignoring the thing
altogether, pro OR con) or you must choose to look at the claim from
either the "it does" or the "it doesn't" perspective, either of which
can be impacted by a TEST.
JB> But the theist stance is far more useful that the atheist
JB> stance, when arguing with _creationists_.
DR> There is no "atheist stance."
(*repeat guffaw*)
DR> You are advocating division where it has no need: theology is
DR> not the venue of science. A person's theology (theist) or lack
DR> of one (atheist) is not relivent to reality (science).
"Theology must eventually become a branch of physics" (--a modern well-
known physicist whose name I've forgotten)
Theology most certainly IS relevant to science, IFF there exists some
perhaps general, non-human "intelligent" influence in Nature, aspects of
which science can have access to, but which it has not yet deeply
delved. Until that time, neither the antitheist nor the theist needs
argue about it (no empirical data), and the atheist _inherently_ ought
to be keeping his yapper shut, since he doesn't -care- about it either
way.
JB> A cretinist won't even consider an evolution without
JB> God involved.
DR> Since the gods are orderless, colorless, measureless,
DR> weightless, invisible, and in every way seemingly imaginary,
(*grin*) You know these properties of gods? How? You've TESTED fro
them? (*chuckle*)
(I do presume you meant to write "odorless?" You were perhaps making a
joke by "orderless?")
DR> Creationists will and will not "consider," since it is the
DR> REAL WORLD that dictates science?
Because in the REAL WORLD the creationists have an impact _directly_ on
one's (if not your own Dave Rice personal) life, with their invasion
attempts at the school systems which educate our children. Science's
REAL WORLD doesn't have much to do with political machinations, either,
so the only way we have to prevent their inroads is to be able to argue
effectively with them on their own grounds, in the board meetings, and
on the Courthouse steps. To get a point _across_, that's capable of
reducing any one creationist's desire to invade your REAL WORLD
schoolhouse, you need first to slap him upside the head with a 2x4, and
the 2x4 had better have -some- sort of "God" written on it, 'cause if it
doesn't, it'll miss him no matter how accurately you swing it.
Moreover, given the REAL WORLD of quantum phenomena, since there's no
way to prove that there's no God and hence no possibility of any sort of
Universal Mind influencing the miniscule probabilities in evolution
across time, there's no good reason NOT to use this argument on them, so
that they will SEE the 2x4 and the "God" written on it, and fail to duck
in time. (*g*)
JB> SOME of them will accept an evolution _with_ God[sic]
DR> Real stupid to do, considering there appear to be no gods
DR> blame evolution on.
Same argument, Dave. It's NOT stupid to refuse to categorically reject
something _against_which_ there is no evidence. The argument depends
upon the particular form of "God" one is supposing. A quantum-phenomena
supportable "Universal Consciousness" which may have an effect upon
general quantum probabilities in brains or in DNA molecules is a very
different sort of thing than the kind of "Bible-based" God y'all
atheists have traditionally been objecting to. The cretinists would
still loudly object, of course, but they could not claim you or the
science used to support the idea were ATHEISTIC. (They use, of course,
the common misunderstanding of the word "atheist," in its form "anti-
theist.")
Just like a fundie, the typical atheist, if he chooses to argue against
the existence of a God or gods, PICKS some mental construct to argue
against. He does not usually consider mental constructs representing
possible god-existences he hasn't thought of. IOW, if you're arguing
against "the God of the Bible," you may not be arguing against the God
of the Bushmen, or if arguing against that, may not be arguing against
some other format for the God-concept. The worst thing possible for a
science-minded atheist would be to have to argue against a God-concept
that was _consistent_ with every shred of science that we know.
He'd hate that as much as a fundie hates a theistic evolutionist....
DR> It is possible that reindeer can fly. BFD. Why posit what is
DR> not observed? What possible good could it do? Shall
What possible good did it do to fail to look into Galileo's telescope?
If you watch the reindeer, knowing that it's at least _possible_ that
one would fly one day, you miss it when it happens, and that's a piece
of "real" information lost.
DR> astronomers start giving astrological past-life psychic
DR> readings based opon natal charts, because astrology is far
DR> more popular than astronomy?
So long as astrologers exist, they don't need to. The day there -are-
no-more- astrologers, someone should keep an eye out, because in spite
of the fact that astrology is generally bunk, there is the small matter
of factual, if tiny, gravitational patterns over time. (I do NOT
believe in astrology; neither do I think it should be utterly
destroyed.)
JB> truth that way.
DR> THEN ARGUE WITH THE FACTS! Throwing in gods just to appease
DR> the ignorant is not doing them any good!
The _facts_ are that evolution is at root a quantum process, that the
Universe is at root a vastly huger interactive wholistic quantum
process, and that these people are believing something which, while it
may be nearly all bunkum, MAY have a grain of truth in it (and so long
as you or I can't PROVE that there's not a grain of truth in it, it's
perfectly legitimate to let them keep it personally alive to
themselves).
If you want to speak to the enemy, it is wisest to learn his language,
not only so that you can speak to him and have him listen, but also so
that you can spy on him when he thinks you don't understand him.
JB> Lemme do my stuff with them. It's counterproductive to
JB> divert attention into that old boring "gimme some
JB> _proof_!" God[sic]-exists/God[sic]-doesn't-exist bag
JB> of pointlessness.
DR> "Pointlessness?" Don't give me that crap. "Theistic Evolution"
DR> as you call it is as inane as "Theistic Mathematics" and
Oh? Care to argue that? Mathematics can be a subject of MUCH
philosophical maundering vis-a-vis "theism." Ask Plato about it.
Ask the Masons. Ask DesCartes, for that matter....
So long as theism is undemonstrable AND anti-theism is undemonstrable,
the argument pro/con is POINTLESS. Surely you found that out long ago,
and you're only doing it now for entertainment or ego-gratification?
DR> "Theistic Celestian Mechanics." There is no way to add gods
DR> to the equations, as they have not been observed (aka weighed
DR> and measured). It is also therefore irrelevant to do so.
It is scientifically irrelevant currently to do so. It a) may not
always be, and b) is _definitely_ not irrelevant to do so if you want to
help keep the loonies out of your school systems' science classes.
DR> Just how =DOES= someone add gods to Evolutionary Theory?
First one decides there's enough quantum phenomenological evidence to
posit that the Universe as a whole is 'self-aware' and using the
nonlocality of all the Universe's particles to cohere itself, then one
realizes that since in this view the quantum level IS the Mind and all
the particles/atoms/molecules/forces in the UNiverse are unavoidably
mixed into it, whatever it "thinks" ("wills") is going, to some most
likely incredibly small --but nonzero-- degree alter every probability
involved in every chemical reaction anywhere over time. Since that's
what evolution is, at the DNA level and at the level of original
abiogenesis, it's automatic that the posited "God" has influenced
evolution in the past and is still doing so.
Now then, one considers devising tests. How one goes about that depends
on how one goes about getting funding. It's unlikely that any
scientific agency'll fund a theory with a god in it, but that means it
won't get done, not that it _should_ not get done. Sooner or later, it
will get done, but not in this political atmosphere......
It's simple, really: one asks, "is it possible that the universe as a
whole can support a universe-sized conscious mind?" Then one goes and
SEES if there's enough information from real physics (and science in
general) to justify rejecting or provisionally accepting that. It's
pretty easy, once the studying is done. _That_ part is hard as nails,
which is mostly why I don't try to do it with you guys. You wouldn't
listen to me anyway; too preprejudiced. And the information necessary's
too spread out across too many scientific papers.
The POINT is, that it's NOT invalid --even "scientifically speaking"--
to use the concept of 'theistic evolution' on the creationists.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Not all questions worth asking have answers...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:13:48
EID:2a9c 206c51a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5210bc62
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 14351223
On 10 Mar 96, Rob Burcham wrote:
RB> Why was God no longer offended by atrocities and 'sinful'
RB> cultures after biblical times? By 'offended', I mean why
RB> no more orders or actions that wipe out an entire people?
RB> And why was God only offended by nations that pissed off
RB> the Hebrews? God seems very geographically and culturally
RB> limited in this regard.
Maybe God isn't what people think He is....
Maybe He's the "mind of the Universe" --a consciousness based in the
entire material universe, NOT capable of "seeing inside His own brain."
If so, and if the only way God has (or had) for finding out exactly what
He himself is, is/was to draw the information from the mind/brain
systems of the creatures living "inside" Him, then it would make sense
that He would think at any one time that he was whatever the interior
brains thought He was. He would "evolve" his concept of Himself along
with the evolution of what the creatures thought he was, hence He would
change His attitudes as societies became more and more accurate
(science) about what the stuff of His own being was (matter; energy),
and would become "wiser" than once he was.
For a violent, science-ignorant society such as the Middle East had, He
would think of Himself as what -they- thought He was, hence act that
way. But later, as information became more scientific, He would behave
less stupidly....
(*(chuckle)*)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:20:38
EID:f377 206c5280
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c06c3700
On 10 Mar 96, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting David Rice to John Brawley <=-
DR> Just how =DOES= someone add gods to Evolutionary Theory?
RH> OOoooooo...Are YOU gonna be SORRY you asked!!
Too late. I was reasonably _brief_, as well! (Wonder of wonders)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Religion is Science without its glasses.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Sugar coat?
|Date: 13 Mar 96 01:34:00
EID:10ce aa018190
MSGID: 1:206/2720 24815fc1
REPLY: 1:352/266 31437058
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> I just try to discover my own ulterior motives. That
> way, I can act rather than just react.
Very Spinozean. But are you sure there isn't just a subtler and better
hidden ulterior motive driving you to do this, so that you're really just
reacting after all?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:39:08
EID:8b84 206a64e0
RE: AL SCHROEDER:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Dan Ceppa,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-> On 03-04-96 19:51, Norbert Sykes got back to J.j. Hitt
NS> else had titles. Doc Savage WAS a doctor. Doctor Strange was a
NS> doctor of something or other, wasn't he?
DC> Doctor Strange was a surgeon, out for the big bucks. He let a
DC> kid die because he refused to perform the surgery as the parents
DC> couldn't come up with his outrageous fee.
DC> (Sounds a lot like the current medical care system in this
DC> country, don't it?)
Heh. I can imagine Doctor Strange's high malpractice insurance
premiums, considering that he specializes in non-standard healing
techniques now. BTW, I'm glad to see that Marvel comics had a
formula that they stuck to . . . this sort of retribution (some
call it irony) for bad attitudes is very evident in quite a few of
their other heroes, most especially Spider Man, etc.
Yet, Marvel consistently has a good Pagan flavor to them. Doctor
Strange, Hercules, Thor (and all his buddies up in Asgard), etc.
Even the Fantastic Four are representative of the four elementals:
Name Ability(-ies) Element
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sue Storm Invisibility, force fields Air
Reed Richards Stretching/flowing Water
Johnny Storm Flame ability/living flame Fire
Ben Grimm Organic stone being Earth
As a matter of fact, there's even more subtext here that would be
especially apparent to Pagans. Sue and Johnny the only two related
by blood are both very volatile elements, with the last name of
Storm, implying Tempest (Hey, Shakespeare sources??!!), and both
have very etheric abilities. Reed (which bends better than the
oak, remember -- I'm sure the Wiccans see a connection here with
some of the definitions for Wicca/Wica) Richards (word meaning King),
the leader of the group. Ben Grimm (connecting to the Brothers
Grimm perhaps in meaning, but also implying seriousness, etc.) and
Reed Richards are very clearly elements of a more earthly plane.
The symbol for the Fantastic Four is the numeral four within a
circle, which should have meaning for Pagans. I'm sure there are a
lot of other connections if anyone just wants to look for them.
I guess this is why Marvel comics were always my favorites. They
just felt right. And it's amazing what you can find when you look
for it. };)
... 1Samuel 5:6-9: YHVH afflicts Philistines w/tumors in "secret parts".
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Re: Wolves in Sheep Clothing
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:43:25
EID:5940 206a6560
Wolves in Sheep Clothing:
1% All, 10% Mark Craig,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
MC> Did you know that Ralph Reed, of the Establishment controlled
MC> Christian Coalition, is quietly pushing for the nomination of Bob
MC> Dole over Pat Buchanan?
Did you know that the Heineken's oldest brewery dates back to 1433?
... Exodus 21:7-11 Female servants are sex slaves.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:53:45
EID:bfbf 206a66a0
Avoiding the Question:
1% Jim Germiquet, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DW> 07 Mar 96 15:38, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG> is doubt. A person who knows who they are and what they believe ,
JG> doesnt have to prove it to anyone.
DW> I know I'm Jehovah. Since you've just said I don't have to prove it
to
DW> anyone, bow down and worship me.
Jesus Christ, are you Jehovah again? Next thing we know, you'll be
Adonai, then Mithra, and then get into the whole Ganesa fiasco
again, and we finally finished eating all the excess tuna salad
from the last time . . .
BTW, if he tithes you, are you going to share? I'll support your
claim to Jehovahood . . .
... There're more words in the Bible for killing than for love.-Don Morgan
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:58:13
EID:b7cb 206a6740
Pagan March on DC:
1% Tony Byers, 10% Steve Rose,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
SR> Tony Byers wrote in a message to All:
TB> Place: Washington DC
TB> ****************
TB> Purpose: This is a true grassroots movement that all pagan peoples
TB> are invited to take part in, with the primary purpose being to show
TB> the world that we exist in large numbers. We are all responsible
TB> for our own path, but with a little work on everyone's part, those
TB> paths can cross in Washington DC USA on October 31st 1997.
SR> Time to raise the drawspans around the Beltway again.
Hmmm . . . why is this? You let a million blacks in, but have a
problem with Pagans? Gee, talk about being persnickety . . .
... 1Kings 2:8-9: W/last breath David betrays oath & advocateds murder.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: better than
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:29:22
EID:4bf7 206b03a0
better than:
1% Rob Burcham, 10% Dan Ceppa,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
RB> Jesus isn't a better god than me
DC> Congradulations on your ascendancy to god-hood. Take your place
DC> over there with Preston Simpson. We're going to get a god group
DC> photo....
Lemme see here . . . Rob and Preston and J.J. . . . looks like we
have our own holy trinity . . . but then there's you too, right,
etc. What a pantheon. I see a real potential here for Gods of
HolySmoke Trading Cards . . .
... 2Kings 10:19-27: Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: they live
|Date: 11 Mar 96 02:52:34
EID:0016 206b1680
they live:
1% Judith Bandsma, 10% Michael Hardy,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Steve Wallis <=-
SW> Rent the movie "They Live" and check it out-its a good flick. Roddy
SW> Rowdy Piper(remeber that dude)stars in it. Blockbuster should have it.
JB> Oh SHIT! (ROFLMAO) You get your science info from Star Trek and
JB> theology from a PRO-WRESTLER?
JB> And then have the nerve to wonder why we think you are about the
JB> stupidest fuck to ever live. (Second only to Prewett)
MH> I don't know what theology he claims to have learned from Rowdy
MH> Roddy, but it actually is a pretty good movie.
I, personally, thought it was strictly grade B. I think the first
remake of the Bodysnatchers was a lot better, in a paranoid sense.
... "And to my cat Mittens I leave my entire, vast...BOOT TO THE HEAD!!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:03:02
EID:9041 206b1860
Evidence:
1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Andrew Masten,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DC> Why did you godling tell his desciples to take up the sword
DC> prior to that engagement?
AM> He didn't tell them to use it.
Avoiding the question, I see.
... 1Chronicles 20:3: David kills prisoners with saws, axes, & harrows.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:08:49
EID:9041 206b1900
Evidence:
1% Don Martin, 10% Andrew Masten,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DM> People who don't have any evidence generally feel that
DM> way about it. Probably Asmodiddley feels much as you do. You
DM> may wish to extend him some Christian comfort.
AM> The dearth of evidence is in refutation to the evidence I
AM> produced.
What a claptrap. Let's look at what you're saying:
dearth (d–rth) --noun
Scarcity; paucity.
[< ME dere, expensive]
refute (ri-fyUUt') --verb: -futed, -futing
To prove to be false or erroneous; disprove.
[Lat. refutare]
--refut'able adjective
--refut'ably adverb
--refut'er noun
So, what you're saying when you say:
AM> The dearth of evidence is in refutation to the evidence I
AM> produced.
. . . is that the absence of evidence disproves the evidence you
produced?
But you didn't produce evidence. Are you saying that you refuse to
give evidence because of some personal sense of pique or something?
Har. You have no evidence.
... Deuteronomy 6:5-Love YHVH..DEU 6:13-Fear YHVH..1JN 4:18-love =/= fear.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Question?
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:31:55
EID:3a94 206b1be0
Question?:
1% Sean McCullough, 10% Masochistic Maiden,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
SM> The products of seeds of the genus __Theobrannica__ ARE an ideology!!
MM> Ummmmmmmm Chocolate........ ???? Hey, there's a religion in there
MM> somewhere maybe. Troi on Startrek certainly can make a ritual out
of
MM> a cup of hot chocolate. Let's see, now that there's blue M&M's
MM> ........ Hey! that could work. hehehe
Just as the green M&Ms are aphrodisiacs, the blue M&Ms are the
host. At least, in _my_ pantheon of chocolate . . . };)
... "Geez... have you ever seen so many frigging Orcs? Guys? Guys?"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: freedom
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:44:07
EID:8217 206b1d80
freedom:
1% Roger Hunter, 10% Michael Hardy,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> In order to LOVE god, we have to be free to NOT love god.
RH> You call that freedom? I call that extortion.
MH> Freedom equals extortion? That makes sense. Not.
Roger didn't say that Freedom = Extortion. He obviously showed
that he thought being forced to love meant the contradiction (to
him) of freedom, i. e., extortion. If he had said what you claimed
he said, it would not have made sense, but since you choose to
purposely ignore what he said in order to ascribe a different
meaning to it, you probably can't see that. Are you truly this
unable to understand clear english?
... Deuteronomy 6:5-Love YHVH..DEU 6:13-Fear YHVH..1JN 4:18-love =/= fear.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Re: GAY LOVE
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:52:27
EID:6e93 206b1e80
GAY LOVE:
1% Rob Burcham, 10% Sue Armstrong,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> Ask the Celtic people of England, many of whom were shunted
AS> to Whales, long before Christianity came on the scene.
RB> Sperm or humpback?
AS> Yes, some of it was justified with Christianity (or given as
AS> excuse) but the history of empires like Rome, Egypt, Pheonicia,
AS> etc. don't give me a lot of hope that other cultures wouldn't
AS> be just as quick to assimilate and destroy smaller
AS> cultures. Carthage has been salted.
RB> I don't disagree. But the thing is, the possession of the
RB> Christian faith did not 'prevent' more powerful cultures
RB> from acting abysmally toward less powerful ones. If the
RB> actions of Christian armies are no better than Pagan ones,
RB> then where is the moral superiority of Christianity?
SA> Frankly, the Celts were a lot better off under pagan Saxon
SA> invaders than certain other peoples were under Christian invaders
SA> - just ask the Beothuk Indians and the Tasmanian Aborigines. Oh,
SA> wait, you can't. They're extinct. Every last one of them, and
SA> not just in the cultural sense, either.
Wowza, talk about being in the right place at the right time, I
just happened to have captured a post concerning part of this from
a New Zealand newsgroup. I hope you don't mind me strengthening your
argument with this, Sue:
Ä Area: Soc.Culture. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 239 Date: 02-29-96 02:17
From: Dspf@po.pacific.net.sg Read: Yes Replied: No
To: All Mark:
Subj: Re: THE TASMANIA MASSACRE
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Dear Jess,
You might want to refer to Discover, March 1993 issue, which
had an article on the puzzle of the Tasmanian natives on Tasmania and
Flinders island and the effects of cultural seclusion. In it there is a
short discussion of the fate of the natives under the hands of the
Europeans; a summary of which follows.
The end began in 1772, when some French shot a few natives.
Cannon began to be use in 1804. Early encounters with whites were with
sealers and escaped convicts who killed the men and kept the women for
obvious reasons. Systematic killing started in 1820 with the colonisation
of Tasmania by British settlers. In 1828, the Governor of Tasmania made
it legal for whites to shoot any "wild" Tasmanians in white settled areas
This was followed by search and capture parties led by police and
convicts and with a bounty of 5 pounds for adults and 2 pounds for
children. In 1830, a 1000 pounds bounty was offered to a missionary to
round up the remaining natives but he could only find 300. In 1834, a
group of 8 was captured and the last 6 "wild" Tasmanias were captured in
1842. In that year the missionary mentioned earlier took the surviving
135 to a settlement called Wybalenna in Flinder's Island. The settlement
was a disaster and most died (there was a recent documentary on the
settlement on TV3 recently). The surviving 47 returned to Tasmania in
1847 and the last of these, the last pure blooded Tasmanian, a lady
called Tuganini, died in 1876. Anthropologist estimate that the original
native population of Tasmania, given their hunter-gatherer way of life to
be 5000.
There is a brutal parrallel in the story of the natives of Terra
del Fuega. But I don't have details.
Regards.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
... 2Kings 10:19-27: Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Abusers
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:20
EID:cc28 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b0e
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> up thinking that was the way you were suppose to be. It is a LEARNED
JG> BEHAVOIR and has to be more UNLEARNED than punished.
MM> Sometimes it crosses over the area of needing only unlearning. It
MM> needs intervention! I recently faced my Uncle with his abusive
MM> treatment of my aunt.... boy was I nervous..... He took anger
MM> management classes, and some child care classes.... seems like they've
MM> all learned a lot. But I wonder how different it would have been if
I
MM> had remained silent. * SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360)
And many times, it isn't so much the person doing the abuse that needs
treatment, as the person who is allowing their rights to be abused. I mean
if a person doesn't let the abuser know they are crossing that line, it
adds to the problem. And what about the abused person who is either
consciously or unconsciously baiting the abuser and WANTS to be abused.
As a foster parent, we were educated about abused children who try to
get their foster parent to spank them or abuse them because the see it
as an expression of love and caring.
And there was some talk about how Nicole Simpson said she like to get
O.J. worked up because it excited her to see him angry. The excitement,
"living on the edge". With that kind of psychological manipulation happening
is it any wonder that some people become "abusive". I myself had personal
experience with a female who wanted me to help her get together with an
exboyfriend because she wanted to dump him for spite.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Ducks and geese!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:21
EID:0914 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b0f
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> This message reminded me of the time I was feeding some ducks and
JG> geese.When I fed the ducks, they would all crowd over and try and
JG> snatch thebread from one another or get it first.
JG> But when I fed the geese, they all just waited their turn. They
JG> didn'ttry to get each others bread or but in. It was quite
JG> interesting.
MM> Honk Honk Honk.... Guess you just classifed me as a Goose. I would
MM> rather take my turn than fight over the scraps.... but then that may
be
MM> because I feel secure that the scraps will go around.
I guess that is the spiritual idea behind fasting and denying yourself of
worldly pleasures. WHat is more important, your physical life or your
spiritual life. When it comes a choice between dying or murdering another
person which would you choose. Idi Amin it is said used to love to give
two of his prisoners hammers and set free the winner of the battle.
Two innocent people and one had to murder the other for his freedom.
Or when you have enough food for one to survive and two people. Do you
split the food ? do you fight over the food ? do you sacrifice your
life to save the other ?
... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:22
EID:8ff0 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b10
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with
JG> horns and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this
JG> discussion. I havent seen him take that form. But I am sure
JG> many of us have seen him take the form of people like Charles
JG> Manson :-)
MG> What form have you seen him take?
Well did you now that Jesus said to Peter "Get thee behind me Satan" ?
The word means "adversary", so when Jesus knew his time had come and it
was time for him to die, when Jesus said this to Peter, it just meant,
"As much as you may want me to live Peter, you are coming against the
purpose of my life".
Satan is the adversary of God. If God says "do this" anyone who says "don't
do this", is a satan.
In terms of some kind of evil spirit, I cannot even judge Charles Manson,
that is gods job. I only used him as a reference because he is seen as
an evil person by most people I have heard, and my own gut feeling.
I see Charles Manson in his interviews as exactly like the satan in the
garden of eden or the satan that tempted Jesus in the wilderness. He is
a manipulater. He says things like "I didn't tell those girls what to do"
"They just knew instinctively to protect their god Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
AG>> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found
AG>> together.
MG>> Please reference ONE instance of this happening. I will
MG>> research it and reply on why it was a fake.
MG>> Do it now and prepare to look foolish.
JG> Dinosaurs weren't allowed in the Garden , and by the time Adam
JG> and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, the dinosaurs had
JG> become extinct :-)
MG> You claim that humans and dinsaurs had been found together. I asked
MG> you to reference this. Instead, you come up with this nonsense.
MG> Now, once again, I ask you to reference the "fact" that they were
MG> found together at any time int he Earth's history.
First of it wasn't I that claimed human and dinosaur footprints were
found together, that was a response to another user. However I did here
that in some riverbank they found such prints. The statement I heard to
contradict that, was that the smaller footprints could not be positively
identified as "human" footprints.
My comment was simply to suggest that "maybe" the humans that may have
been around, at that time, may have been in a small section of the earth
that either hasn't been discovered yet, or to use the excuse of
the
missing link arguments, perhaps those human remains were destroyed by
natural forces.
I have never claimed that they have been found together, but that does not
mean they never existed together.
What gives the evidence that they never existed together is more linked
I would think to genetic evidence. HOWEVER
If it took only 2 million years for man to have evolved. In the 65 million
years since the dinosaur, man could have evolved and become extinct more
than 30 times :-)
Just because we haven't found evidence of this YET, doe not mean that it
does not exist deep within the earth "somewhere". My favorite expression
follows.
"Keep digging" :-)
... RAM DISK is NOT an installation procedure!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:24
EID:2705 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b12
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Of course "god" is perfect. That is in the "definition" of him
JG> silly :-)
MG> Then why does he allow weather patterns to cause crops to fail and
MG> starve innocent people.
Why not ? Take a look around you NOBODY lives forever. Again what a
crowded world we would live in if it did. AS far as "how" people die,
God has created people in such a way as certain requirements must be
met for their continued physical existence. They must have food,
excercise and rest. They must avoid disease and fatal injuries.
Weather patterns are just once again natural phenomena that occur
according to the natural laws that allow the earth to exist. God
doesn "allow" them to kill people anymore than he throws lightning
bolts down to kill bad people. HOWEVER it is my contention that
those people who "listen" to god can be forewarned of natural events
like floods and avoid the consequences like Noah did.
I also believe that the spirit of God is able to affect the spirits of
people. I believe that is why he affected the Pharoahs spirit to not let
the Israelites go until the occurence of a natural even like an earth
quake that allowed the Israelies to escape, while drowning they persuing
Egyptian armies. Had god not done so, would have been to allow the Egyptians
to continue their dominance. God doesn't like to "make" people do anything
and he made an exception in this case. For the rest of us, we are free to
choose whatever actions we wish, including murder. However those who listen
to god may be able to avoid such attempts if they here the voice of god
and take a different route as the wise man and Jesus parents did 2000 years
ago.
JG> Are you going to blame "god" for the choices that people make ?
JG> WHether it be not watching their children or not teaching
MG> Yes. God is perfect. He has no need to give us free will, but being
MG> perfect, he should be able to without the harmful side effects. Tell
MG> your god to get with it and stop the horsing around. People here need
MG> help.
I do not see the logic in your statement.
If a person does not have a free will, then he cannot love you "freely".
In otherwords he is no longer human, but either a slave or a robot or a
puppet. That is not the intent or purpose of the creation of man.
People here HAVE help. It is their choice to accept it or reject it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
You can give a person medicine, but you cant force him to take it.
You can't stop a person who REALLY wants to commit suicide.
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:26
EID:9da9 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b14
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> What is wrong with being simple minded ? I like the idea? The
JG> simpler the better. WHy try to make things complicated if they
JG> don't have to be.
MG> The universe is a complex thing. Nothing about it or in it is simple.
MG> simple thinking results in black and white answers, none of which are
MG> satisfactory.
The computer seems to be a complicated thing. But all its choices boil
down to simple "yes/no" "on/off".
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:27
EID:bc38 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b15
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> EF> What's more it would be impossible for any Christian to be sure
than
JG> EF> anyone else was a "true Christian" or not. How would you know what
he
JG> EF> was really thinking? What about people with mental problems they
ca
JG>Only god can make that judgement. Half the time we lie to ourselves and
JG>don't even know if WE are a "true" Christian.
KS> Interesting, since we atheists do NOT lie to ourselves.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!
... A feature is a bug with seniority.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:28
EID:fa22 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b16
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>How very true. God is a spirit. But his spirit does speak to the
JG>spirits of men and then men right down what the spirit of god is
JG>saying to them.
JG>Tell me some of the ways people should act toward each other.
JG>What is it GOOD for people to do ?
KS> To treat others as they would want to be treated. No religion or
KS> gods necessary.
But what you just said IS a religion.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Jesus said all the laws of Moses would be fulfilled if we kept 2 simple
commandments.
1) Love truth and goodness and what is right.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
To me religion means "a way of life". The teachings of Jesus Christ
are an example of this way of life. Not all people who SAY they are
Christians are necessarily following those teachings.
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:29
EID:ad23 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b17
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>Oh sure. Real christians just pray once a week and god puts money
JG>in there wallet friday night while they are asleep like the tooth fairy.
JG>Sorry it doesn't work that way. God is limited in his ability to help
JG>his messengers by those who hear the message and respond. When a person
KS> LIMITED??????
KS> Ahhhh....
OF COURSE !!!! He is limited by the ability and willingness of man to
hear his voice and act accordingly !!!!!!
We are NOT puppets, robots, or slaves, to be manipluated by god. He can
give us advice, He can suggest the best way to handle a situation , but
he cannot make us do it and allow us to remain human beings.
JG>who partake in them. So the next time you watch a religious tv show,
JG>consider paying for the entertainment. Send a donation.
KS> I sometimes do. A check payable to God.
KS> One of these days, one of those assholes will try to cash it.
Not a problem if you call your organization GOD . It's like making
your check payable then to "Bell Telephone".
:-)
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:30
EID:7be7 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b18
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> EF> I don't think fundies are very impressed by deadly accuracy per
se. I
JG> EF> do, however, work at being accurate and it will be a warm day on
Plu
JG> EF> before you catch me making a factual claim I can't document or
cite
JG> EF> reference for (though obviously I do make mistakes, as do the author
JG> EF> of said references.)
JG>Please tell me the size of the universe within 100 cubic metres.
KS> 1.819 x 106
JG>Please tell me how tall god is within 1 inch.
KS> Cannot be answered. God does not exist.
JG>Please tell me how old the universe is within 1 solar day.
KS> 5.47875 x 102
JG>Please tell me EXACTLY how many generations it took for the very first
JG>life from to evolve into my mother .
KS> One.
JG>How important is accuracy ?
KS> Very.
KS> However, your question is scientifically absurd. Your requests are
KS> for *precision* which is mathematically a different thing than
KS> *accuracy*.
KS> Take a math class or drop it.
Not necessarily, I have quoted several times from a book I am reading
about the defintion of words. The definition of the word accurate is
very ambiguous. It begs the question "how accurate?".
I believe the bible is very true indeed. But it is full of metaphors that
some people take to be literal descriptions of actual events.
They are accurate in concept, if not in literal detail.
... Mary had a little RAM -- only about a MEG or so.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: lack of any Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:31
EID:f3bf 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b19
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>You see even a LIE can have beneficial effects if people believe it to
JG>be true. In fact the belief in it will eventually make it become true
JG>when people act on it .
JG>WHAT A CONCEPT !!!
JG>By BELIEVING in something and ACTING on it you make it a REALITY !!!
KS> I believed I could fly. I acted on it.
KS> I fell off the roof and broke my fucking leg.
JG>EUREKA !!!!
KS> EURAMORON !!!!
Me? I'm not the one who believed I could fly. What were you born with
"wings" on your back , that you based this belief on ?
So what did you base your belief on ?
Just because you say you believe something, does not make it so.
And I also am talking about more than just the individuals belief, which
may not be belief at all, but a chosen delusion.
I am talking about a universal belief . I am talking about the belief
of the collective consciousness of all mankind that has ever existed from
the beginning of time.
Of course talking to someone who uses the words "fucking" and "moron"
hardly gives me any faith that I am talking to a reasonable human
being anyway.
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [1/2] Your Daily Murder
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:32
EID:a61d 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b1a
>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point having all
JG> those orphaned children and widows around after their hubbys have died
JG> in the war.
AS> (Small voice) What?
AS> Uh...Jim....perhaps you haven't thought this through. Someone dies in
AS> World War II, say, a pilot who has a wife and kids. Are you REALLY
AS> saying we should go out and kill his widow and kids?
JG> These things were said "tongue in cheek". But you have to take into
AS> Then PLEASE put a after it. Although I have to wonder at your
AS> sense of humor.
Again it was not exactly humor either as your following quote goes on
to explain.
JG> consideration that we are not talking about the 1940's or the present
JG> American idea of morality and spirituality. In china they are still
JG> killing children simply because they made a law that determines how
JG> many children a woman can legally conceive. God has to deal with this
JG> kind of mentality in ALL people he tries to tell what to do. He does
JG> not and will not use people as puppets. We are free to choose what we
JG> will believe and do. And when it comes to listening to God, we will'
JG> only be able to do it in terms of what WE are willing to accept. We
JG> will interpret what God says in accordance to our own system of
JG> beliefs and what we consider appropriate behavoir. We are limited in
JG> our ability to percieve what god is telling us. We also have to deal
JG> with those who have no intention of listening to God. Therefore in
JG> those times to do any less than they did would have been to show
JG> weakness and not get the respect that winning a war brings. That was
JG> life in those times and that was what God had to work with.
AS> Um. Although I do agree that God sometimes has to make His arguments
AS> fit the stage the people were in, and yes, I do know that oftentimes
AS> whole villages and peoples were wiped out routinely in that time, a
AS> God who couldn't temper that with a little mercy, unless there was a
gods idea of mercy , or the mercy the people of the time were capable
of understanding. Perhaps there was a sense of mercy in what these
people did "to them".
AS> good reason not to, quite frankly, is bending TOO much to accomodate
AS> the people. Of course, God only told Moses to "avenge themselves on
AS> the Midianities", as John Brawley rightly points out. It was MOSES who
AS> gave that order, and to an extent, must bear some of the guilt.
Moses as much as he attempted to be true to god spirit, was also a
product of that time and as such his own perception of what was
right and what the general populance would understand must be considered.
AS> Now quite frankly, there MIGHT have been a reason for killing the
AS> Moses might have concluded---rightly or wrongly--that as long as
AS> pre-gunfire world, males WERE more of a potential danger than females,
AS> because armor and swords and shields were so heavy. Amazons were few
AS> and far between. (Nor is there any indication that the virgin
AS> Midianite girls--who were probably pretty young, it being common in
AS> that part of the world to marry very young--were used for sex. Indeed,
AS> given the Jewish prohibition against marrying outsiders, it seems more
AS> likely they were made servants, although I doubt if one can argue
AS> servanthood is better than concubinage.) But that's all theory. I
AS> can't really justify it from what is written, just using what I know
AS> of Baal and Molech-worship as a plausible justification, and I might
AS> be totally wrong.
Now you are trying to be more understanding of the bible aand not just
trying to denigrate it. This is what I mean about taking the bible
literally or in terms of what we think today as a society.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
AS> (Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.)
AS> Jim.
AS> THINK THIS THROUGH.
AS> If after the Gulf War, we had killed ALL the widows and children of
AS> those killed in the war, and taken the virgin girls as wives for the
AS> unmarried GI males, exactly WHAT do you think the rest of the world
AS> would view us as?
AS> I don't know the explanation for that passage, but I know that the
AS> above does NOT constitute a defense for it.
AS> I'm a believer, but I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that
AS> passage.
JG> But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
JG> enlightenment. Just now the news is on of the "suicide?" bombing in
JG> Tel Aviv. This person has given his life for what he believes is
JG> right. The will of god. Personally the god I know does not want us to
JG> blow each other up. HE wants the whole world to live in peace. Now
JG> tell me, what do you do about these people who are intent on
JG> destroying you if you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would
AS> Stop them and jail them before more people are killed.
Jail them ? These are suicide bombers. Is it fair to subject jail guards
to people who have nothing to lose in a bid for freedom. Is it fair to
have these people in jail so that people can be kidnapped and used as
bargaining chips to gain the freedom of these suicide bombers so they
can load up again. And how exactly do you CATCH a "suicide" bomber to
put him in jail. Only before he is able to accomplish his mission. He
will always be a danger to society.
JG> tell you to do ? What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years
AS> Forgive them their trespasses, but still get them away from a
AS> position where they can't kill others. The New Testament isn't a
AS> suicide pact. One can use limited violence to prevent a greater
AS> violence.
How limited ? I don't think Jesus even deals with this topic other than
in his "Let the dead bury the dead" or "Give unto caesar what is caesars"
or "Obey the laws of your land and rulers" type remarks.
JG> ago would "think" God was telling them to do. Also what would God have
AS> Of the BOMBERS being told to do the "will of God"? That it's
AS> barbaric. But of course, that's what I think NOW of people who blow
up
AS> innocents in the name of God.
JG> to tell the people to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their
JG> aggression ?
AS> See above. Stop them and get them where they cannot bomb others.
JG> I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
AS> I am, Jim.
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
AS> Sometimes that happens. Witness World War II. But to descend too far,
AS> where you cannot tell the difference between the two sides in what
AS> they do, but only their ideologies...makes you no better than they
AS> are. The fact that the Nazis sent the Jews to concentration camps does
AS> NOT justify us sending the Japenese to milder internment camps.
AS> (Milder in the sense that they were not killed in it.)
First of all let me tell you that I understand and respect the points
you make. I make comments on some that I may disagree with or would
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [2/2] Your Daily Murder
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:33
EID:b36e 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b1b
>>> Part 2 of 2...
like to add to. Having said that....
Again consider the fear during the Japanese interment. You were fighting
a nation that had sneak attacked you before formally declaring war. You
were also fighting a nation with an ideology of "kamikaze" attacks and
"hari kari", which denotes little respect for life or some of the moral
values that Americans understood. How could you trust people that had come
from that type of culture, not to return to their roots during an attack
by their mother land on your own. Would you turn your back on a Japanese
person when Japan was at war with your country ?
It was not a case of trying to exterminate the Japanese, but of self
preservation I would think.
JG> Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
AS> Again. If you are no better than they, are you really doing God's
AS> work? This is a hard one, Jim, for any believer. What I found
AS> offensive was your (now claimed to be tongue in cheek) blithe way of
AS> assuming widows and children can be killed with impunity. Some things
AS> ARE relative, but I think that is one where I would want to be able
to
AS> say my God is better than that. It is worth agonizing over, and
AS> sometimes the best response in this forum, when you don't know the
AS> answer, is a simiple, "I don't know".
Again the point is to undersstand the possible thinking of the people at
that time, which may have been they considered it "mercy killings".
Look at today's society. We now advocate the murdering of our sick
and elderly. Pull the plug on them, Assissted suicides, and abortions of
defenceless unborn children who cannot defend themselves. What would other
generations think of these kind of practices ?
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 11 Mar 96 13:15:34
EID:8fa9 206b69e0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 240e8b1c
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
KDM> JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JG> MH> Yes, I do. It just isn't unambiguous and simplistic. It is that
JG> MH> God punishes those guilty of evil. If God did indeed order the
JG> MH>killing of truly innocent children along with the guilty adults,
JG> MH>then I would suppose that the ending of their physical life was
JG> MH>not the judgment, but what happens after. If so, then I believe
JG> MH>the innocent children who, unfortunately, lost their physical
JG> MH>lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus aren't punished at
JG> MH>all.
JG> KDM> Then what's the problem with abortion?
JG>
JG>The problem with abortion is that as soon as the egg and sperm unite,
JG>you have a new unique individual human being. All it needs is food
JG>and shelter until it can fend for itself. Put a one week old child
JG>out in our chilly Candian winter and it is the same as pulling an
JG>immature unborn baby from the womb of its mother.
Please read the quote I was responding to, OK?
I did, but I was responding to the question asked with my own personal
opinion :-)
KDM> And let me explain the difference between the two -- once the child
is
KDM> out of the womb, *anyone* can take care of it. While it is in the
KDM> womb, the mother is forced to do so. So, while in the womb, the mother
KDM> can and does control the child's fate.
I certainly understand the difference between an unborn child and a born
child. The point however is that to put either one into conditions that
would kill it or failing to provide it with the necessities of life, remains
the same in either case.
And what if *anyone* doesn't happen to come along at 3 in the morning after
you have thrown your child out in the backyard in sub zero temperatures?
Then is it just considered an "abortion". You just couldn't be bothered
waiting for *anyone* to be available to take care of the child. I mean
9 months is such a long time isn't it?
Of course in the womb the mother controls the fate of the child. And so
to does she when the child is out of the womb as noted above she has the
same choices.
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ATHEIST HYPOCRISY
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:12:00
EID:7743 206c6180
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Kenneth Cavness <=-
AS> I'm not a big fan of suicide. It doesn't give me a feeling of high
AS> tragedy but of embarassment, that someone doesn't have the guts to
AS> bear temporary problems.
Terminal illness is not exactly a temporary problem, Al. It lasts
the rest of your life..
AS> We will all die some time. No need to hurry it.
AS> There's a poem...my references are burned, so I'm doing this from
AS> memory...
AS> "Do not go gentle into the dark night...
AS> "Rage, rage against the dying of the light..."
AS> Written by Dylan Thomas or a contemporary. It sums up my feelings
AS> pretty well.
That was my father's attitude too. I watched him slowly die as cancer
ate away his face until no one could bear to look at him. In the end
he died, having proved nothing.
AS> Take it from me, Kenneth. I spent years in awful loneliness. But
AS> there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Yeah. It's a train headed your way!
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:52:00
EID:4a37 206c6680
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Big gush of blood and water (oddly enough, not mixed, which WOULD
AS> happen if you pierced it a certain way but is not what you would
AS> expect to happen
Only John mentions this, so it is not a guaranteed event.
RH> c) No one prepared him. The women were coming back later for that.
Again, only John said spices were used immediately, but all agree that the
women were to further prepare his body later, after Sabbath.
RH> d) There is no mention of them afterwards. Bribed, killed, executed?
AS> it was a false story is proven by the code of Roman military law
AS> which says, if the guards DID fall asleep on duty, they coudl be
AS> executed. Even if it were the truth, it is the LAST thing the guards
AS> would have admitted,
Temple guards? Pilate refused them Roman guards.
RH> Or sincere faith.
AS> NO!!!! THAT'S JUST WHAT IT IS NOT!!!!!
It can still be a sincere faith that if he fulfilled all the prophecies
God would be forced to act.
AS> Jesus, who said repeatedly, "the truth shall set you free" was
AS> conspiring, in your scenario, to DEFRAUD the Jerusalem population. It
AS> wasn't sincere ANYTHING. If He had faith, He would have let God save
AS> Him and not relied on such a plot. He would have felt it would have
Backup position, just in case.
RH> Nah. How about flaying? Now, THERE'S painful!
AS> You may recall that Jesus WAS scourged by the Romans. Do you know how
Maybe. One passage says Pilate did it. And Pilate would not take time
for a good scourging.
AS> shown where people died from a Roman flogging ALONE. To me, that has
AS> always been the obvious answer of why Jesus died "so soon"--the
AS> floggings probably half-killed Him anyway.
The soldiers beat him with a stick, not a whip.
RH> Or no one left alive to tell....
AS> Executed? But surely, they would have blubbered out the truth if they
AS> were
I had assassination more in mind than execution.
AS> to be executed, to incriminate others and so gain mercy. And if that
AS> were so, why did the Romans or Sanhedrin not just SAY that, that the
AS> guards were bribed and we had confessions of such, and so squelch the
AS> budding Christian religion?
They may have felt that it was not important enough, that they
had nipped it in the bud by killing Jesus.
RH> Wagon? Horse?
AS> Luke 24:13. "That very same day, two of them were on their way to a
AS> village called Emmaus, seven miles from Jerusalem, and they were
AS> talkign together about all that had happened. Now as they talked this
AS> over, Jesus
AS> himself came up and WALKED by their side" and Luke 24:28, towards
AS> the end
AS> of the walk, "When they drew near to the village to which they were
AS> going, He made as it to go on". Certainly doesn't SOUND wounded,
AS> does He?
Note too that they did not recognise him. This may not have been
Jesus at all.
RH> But that's what they reported. Who said they were all staring at the
RH> sun anyway? Not I...
AS> If they see the sun dancing in the sky, they are looking at the sun,
AS> correct? I can't look at the sun more than a second or two without
AS> flinching.
Come on, Al. You do not have to stare at the sun to see it move.
RH> Besides, it was an overcast day IIRC.
AS> Then how did they know the sun was dancing, if the clouds were
AS> covering the sun..?
Overcast. You CAN stare at the sun on an overcast day and you CAN
see it without being blinded by it.
RH> All he had to do was survive the cross for awhile.
RH> Not nearly as incredible as the alternative. IMHO, of course.
AS> Of course. But the alternative scenarios given seem to defy
AS> everything we know of human nature. I will grant you it is an
AS> incredible claim. So incredible that I cannot think of a test
AS> greater than that one which would
AS> convince everybody. He made an incredible claim. He also DID an
AS> incredible thing, living again, TO BACK IT UP.
For awhile anyway....
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:09:00
EID:b980 206c6920
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> He had enough faith to undergo a Roman flogging and the opening parts
AS> of Crucifixion but didn't have enough faith to see it through?
Why not? He was a man, trying to force God's hand by fulfilling all
the prophecies. A backup plan, "just in case" makes sense.
RH> Either one would work, but I think he survived the cross for awhile.
AS> Ah, then perhaps the "swoon" theory? That He went into a deathlike
AS> coma? But then,you are left with the prospect of a man who was near
AS> enough death
AS> to fool executioners who deal with dead bodies every day, getting up,
AS> in a
AS> sealed cavern, and moving a large stone that was sealing the tomb,
AS> and, with injuries in his hands, side, and feet, convincing everybody
AS> that He had been "gloriously" resurrected and the others wanting to
be
AS> resurrected
AS> like He was, instead of looking like death warmed over.
Works for me. Outside help would be needed to move the stone and we don't
know WHAT happened to the guards.
RH> For what? Birth? Seems pretty clear to me. Breath of life and all.
AS> Why should breathing be a criteria?
If it don't breathe, it ain't alive. Humans, anyway.
AS> linked with the mother? If a person is linked to a heart-lung machine
AS> are they less human? Is it because they cannot function as a human
RH> Yes. A corpse can be kept "alive" that way.
AS> So can a human being who thinks and feels, and yet is disabled in
AS> other ways.
Granted. You asked about less human. They are.
RH> Probably. Ask your insurance company about that. HMOs will soon be
RH> limiting the care you get based on a cost/benefit ratio.
AS> And will be promptly be sued. And will probably be made to pay, by
AS> the courts.
Not at all. It's legal already, in Oregon and Canada.
AS> Total agreement. Before too long, a real redefinition of what a human
AS> being is will have to take place.
And won't THAT be fun....
AS> Who's the scorekeeper?
Well shoot! I hope SOMEone's paying attention here..
AS> Okay. Then they were deceived by Jesus. Is that what you are saying?
No. They saw the real, living Jesus. He simply did not die on the
cross.
... "Milhouse, we live in the age of cooties!" - Bart Simpson
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:20:00
EID:b331 206c6a80
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> we can just die. There is no logical justification for a lake of
RH> fire. It's just the human wish for vengeance, no matter how delayed,
RH> projected onto a "merciful" God.
AS> That might be one reason I myself am rather disturbed by the idea of
AS> Hell,
AS> and like many, wonder if an actual extinction of the soul is what's
AS> implied. Many sincere Christians believe that. I myself am not sure.
Yes. The Jehova's Witlesses believe that. I think John Brawley would
agree with it too. Even I could accept it if I HAD to believe in a
God.
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:04:04
EID:d007 206c6080
MSGID: 1:271/460 3145b450
REPLY: 1:207/212 4526edd5
Sunday March 10 1996 09:47, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Noone will obey all the laws, why? Because being saved does not keep
KM>> one from sinning, and disobey laws is sin.
KD> Then how am I supposed to do what you expect me to, and remove those
KD> that are in prison for crimes both by secular and by their religious
law
KD> from the status of "Christian"?
You cannot remove anyone from the status of being a Christian. A lot of
people think that just because someone goes to church that they are a Christian,
or just because they believe the Bible that they are a Christian. A Christian
is someone that follows Christ, most so called Christian do not try and
follow Christ. They claim that they do, but in reality they don't. It's
not very likely that a Christian will do crimes that they can be put into
prison for, but it does happen, Christain are after all still sinners. One
way to find out if they have been living as a Christian should, ask them
the last time that they read their Bible, or how long they spent in prayer
this morning, or how much they tithe, how often they go to church or when
was the last time they lead someone to Christ. Most people that call themselves
Christians don't know the first thing about Christianity, and if you really
press them on the point, you'll find that they believe it is their own righteousness
that gets them to heaven along with what Christ did on the cross. There
are no promises that we will not sin again, of course we will, we are all
sinners. Does that mean that I can sin freely? No, not really, I will still
have to answer to Christ for my sins, but he paid for them already. But
most importantly if I sin freely, there's a good chance that someone will
end up in hell because of it.
KM>> AFAIK? Is there anyplace in the Bible that says we will not sin after
KM>> we are saved?
(What's AFAIK?)
KD> Then how am I supposed to know a Christian except by what they say they
KD> are?
By what they do, they will show signs, yes, but not when it's demanded of
them. When one walks up to you and askes you if your 100% sure that if you
died tonight that you would go to heaven, that's a real good indication.
But even that can be faked. It's easy to fake being a Christian, that's
part of the problem, there's a lot of fake Christians giving Christianity
a bad name. There's also a lot of saved people that think that being saved
or born again makes them a Christian. You stay around the church long enough
and you will see who is and is not a Christian, a few years down the road
the fake ones normally leave or stop coming.
KD> And if it doesn't keep you from sinning any more than us non believers,
KD> how is it valid?
After I was saved I asked the same thing, over and over again. How can I
be saved if I still sin. We still have that old nature about us, we do not
become perfect the minute we become saved. But don't get being saved mixed
up with being a Christian, being saved does not make you a Christian. Living
a life that Christ would want you to lead, makes you a Christian. Will we
mess up? Will we sin, of course we will. But remember our salvation is not
based on what we say or do, it's based on what Christ did.
KM>> OK, so if someone goes to jail, they are allowed to go anywhere, but
KM>> back into their home... I'm sure all those in prison will be glad to
KM>> hear that. Guess we better contact the people that make dictionaries
KM>> so they can change the meaning of the words jail and prison. While
we
KM>> are at it, we had better contact those that run the prisons and jails
KM>> as well, they are holding people that they should not be holding. All
KM>> they have to do is, keep the people away from their home. Of course
if
KM>> they are living in jail, doesn't that become their home?
KD> And this jail, the earth, has become *our* home.
I don't see it as a jail, and those of us that are born again Christian
should consider it a jail more, the Bible tells us that this is not our
home.
KM>> Who hates women? We (men) could not survive without them.
KD> Yet we can't walk the streets at night for fear of men raping us.
Your absolutly correct, I can't let my 13 year old daughter out of the house
without fearing the same thing. The Bible says that they world is going
to get worse, that it will get like it was in the days of Noah before the
flood, and as int he days of Lot before Sodom and Gomora were destroyed.
Stick around, it's going to get worse and worse, and when you think it has
ended, it hasn't.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 12:29:05
EID:e42d 206c63a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3145bbaa
REPLY: 1:207/212 b4b9c98b
Sunday March 10 1996 09:50, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> I don't HAVE to accept anything. I believe the Bible, if it turns out
KM>> that it is not real, I will never know it. I don't and cannot accept
KM>> that there is any God except the God that is in the Bible. If he's
not
KM>> real, there is no others.
KD> You're not getting my point. There remain many other LOGICAL
KD> possibilities.
I see you point, I just don't have to agree with it.
KM> KM>>> I don't think we will notice.
KD>> Right.
KM>> What? Agreeing with Pascal's Wager?
KD> No, simply agreeing that if there is no god or afterlife of any kind,
we
KD> are not likely to have any awareness after death.
Isn't that what Pascal's Wager says? That is what I was told after I said
that if God did not exist that I would not know it.
KD> HOWEVER, there are many proposed supreme beings and afterlives. So many
KD> that yours is not the statistical best bet.
Your right, there are many many false religions in the world, excuse me
if I have to think that mine is not.
KD>> Look at it this way - if a Muslim stopped believing, your god is still
KD>> a logical option, right?
KM>> I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the
KM>> Bible. To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the ONLY
KM>> option, which makes him the logical one as well.
KD> You're being stubborn.
What do you expect? I don't believe that any other religion is correct.
KD> I'm not trying to get you to admit they're right,
KD> I'm trying to get you to admit that they are LOGICAL POSSIBILITIES.
Sorry, can't do that, and will not, you should have figured that out by
now. I do not see any other logical possibilities other than the Bible.
KD> YOU
KD> BELIEVE that Islam is a false religion. I will agree that your faith
KD> does indeed teach that.
Not just based on what my "faith" teaches, most of my learning from the
Bible did not come from my "faith", but from self study.
KD> Yet from where I stand, it is no more or less
KD> likely to be true than yours.
I've already stated that that is your opinion and your entitled to it.
KD> I'm equally unlikely ever to adhere to
KD> either faith, as both oppress women.
Your opinion again....
KD> Take one step back from the Bible and open your mind. Your Bible might
KD> only leave 2 options - false/true God/no God, but TRUE logic indicates
KD> that there are many more.
Sorry Karen, I will not step back from the Bible. I already have an open
mind, and do not see any other options either it's the God of the Bible
or no God at all. You look for logic that indicates something else, I'll
stick with the truth of the Bible.
KD>> Fine. But consider the THOUGHT EXPERIMENT that the primary assertions
KD>> of the Bible are wrong.
KM>> It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
KD> That's the problem here. Now I can understand why the great advances
in
KD> science and thought were made by people who could at least take a step
KD> back from the Bible. You can't even engage in a thought experiment.
Not can't, won't. Why? Don't see the need? Why bother considering something
that I do not believe in? I could spend the time considering something that
I do believe in.
KM>> Only one possibility, you lied to me.
KD> Actually, no, the other possiblity is that I was mistaken - perhaps
I
KD> was tripping out on Benadryl because I had a cold. Perhaps I had already
KD> received my phone call for the next day's assignment and confused the
KD> two. Perhaps the way you received the information was fallible.
NO matter what the reason, it would still not be the truth would it? Whether
you purposely lied or not, it's still not the truth, therefore it would
be lie.
KD> But just assuming that you had reason to believe all or part of the
KD> statement I made about my teaching assignment that day was untrue,
KD> doesn't it open up all those possibilities I indicated as being the
KD> FACTS? Sure, the statement is untrue. But if you want to get at the
KD> FACTS, then all the options I indicated are possible.
Like I said, if the statement is untrue then it is a lie.
KD> OK... let's take this away from the possibliity of LYING. Let's say
that
KD> at 8:30 in the morning, my husband wakes up to find me already gone.
He
KD> gets a call that he needs to find me. On the computer desk is a paper
KD> saying "Grand Terrace, 3rd grade." HE NEEDS TO FIND ME.
KD> He goes to the office and finds out that the third grade teacher I had
KD> been sent there for came in anyway, but they needed me in another grade.
KD> OR
KD> A call to the sub desk finds that Grand Terrace was my assignment for
KD> TOMORROW and that I'm at ______ school that day [any grade]
KD> OR that I didn't have an assignment that day, Gary goes home and finds
KD> me home eating the doughnuts I had gone out to buy.
What's your point?
KM>> Those may be your options, not mine. I don't see any options other
KM>> than the God that is described in the Bible, if he does not exist,
I
KM>> do not believe there is a god at all.
KD> This is YOUR opinion. I'm stating logical permutations.
Go ahead, consider them all you want. I won't, I don't see the logic of
considering something I do not believe in.
KD>> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD>> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so.
KM>> No, I didn't say that. Trust in a human is different than trust in
KM>> God.
KD> At least you have some way to verify the accuracy of my statements,
and
KD> you can verify that I exist.
You want to have verification that God exist? But you refuse to believe
by faith. Without faith you cannot verify that he exist. It takes faith,
not physical evidence to believe in God.
KM>> Remember the only option I listed for your untruth? If I found out
you
KM>> were lying then you are a lair, that's the only option I would worry
KM>> about.
KD> Yet if you needed to act on where I was teaching, and were willing to
KD> entertain the idea that I was mistaken and not intentionally lying....
"intentionally lying" That's the key.
KM>> You can engage yourself in your thought experiment, I will not
KM>> participate. My options are clear, if God as described in the Bible
KM>> does not exist, then there is no kind of God at all.
KD> You really think God would want you to think that way?
How does it go? Thou shalt have no other gods before me? Yes, I do think
that he would want it that way.
KD> He wouldn't want
KD> you to entertain the possibility that there was some miscommunication
KD> and that fallible men wrote things wrong?
There's also a verse in the Bible that says that forever his word is settled
in heaven. I believe we have the word of God. And I do not think that it
is fallible at all.
KD> Why then did he have to send
KD> someone else to repeat his message?
Repeat his message? Who did that?
KM>> With all that I have seen and experienced, there is no logical option
KM>> other than the God that is in the Bible. Logically from my stand
KM>> point, if he does not exist, then there is no god.
KD> And I have seen no evidence which makes your god more likely than the
KD> supereme being[s] of any other faith.
But you have no faith, you will not believe the scriptures, therefore you
will not believe.
KM>> Believers are not skeptical of the Bible, maybe that's what the
KM>> non-believers forget.
KD> Maybe they should be? Or maybe they should open up their minds enough
to
KD> thought experiments like this so they can understand us non believers
KD> better?
Oh, I understand you, more than you realize. I just won't think like you,
and you consider that wrong. Could you step on my side of the tracks and
honesty consider God from the stand point of one that has faith? If you
think you can, tell me how can you without that faith? How could I consider
a thought experiment that requires me to set my faith aside? My faith exist,
and it is not something that can just be set aside.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 12 Mar 96 13:00:06
EID:d05e 206c6800
MSGID: 1:271/460 3145bc5b
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31418cc7
Saturday March 09 1996 13:49, David Worrell mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KC>>>>> Your god sure is mercurial.
KM>>>> He sure is, praise the Lord.
DW>>> Do you know what mercurial means, dipshit? Open that dictionary
DW>>> you're always babbling about and look it up.
DW>>> HINT: It does not mean merciful.
KM>> Do you know what sarcasm?
DW> Sure I do, Ken. You, however, have shown no understanding of sarcasm
in
DW> the past. Thus, I doubt that you really know what it is or how to use
it.
DW> The only conclusion I can draw from the evidence presented is that you
DW> made a mistake and are now lying to try to cover it up. Silly li'l fundy.
And the only conclusion that I can draw from your statements is that no
matter what you are told, you will always consider what someone says that
has faith, a lie, no matter what you are told. Sarcasm is just like a joke
sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. And in this case David, not only
does it seem like it went over your head, you better get a ticket on the
next shuttle craft if you want a chance to understand it. Have a nice day...
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 06:44:02
EID:ab5a 206c3580
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b4a0807e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 638d3e72
On (11 Mar 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Al Schroeder...
AS> To say nothing of the fact that he killed himself. Anyone who
AS> knows Catholic doctrine knows that the surest way of earning a
AS> ticket to hell is to kill oneself...it's an unforgivable sin.
JH> I thought we had been over this before...
JH> It may be an un-absolvable sin in that it can't be confessed after
JH> the fact, but I'm not so sure it gets you anything worse than
JH> big time in Purgatory.
JH> I need to get a copy of the new Catechism (Catechism95), but
JH> I'm pretty sure that NO act is labeled as a sure trip to Hell.
JH> While the Catholic Church does assume a number of powers that
JH> Protestants insist are the exclusive priveledge of the Divine,
JH> I think they let God make the judgement of whether a person
JH> goes to Hell or not.
I don't see how Jehovah could even put Hitler in Hell. After all:
Hitler didn't do anything Jehovah hadn't already done to the
Midianites before him.
Or, as an alternative, maybe Jehovah's in Hell, paying for what he
did to the Midianites.
Or, another possibility is that old Do-As-I-Say-And-Not-As-I-So
Jehovah has forgiven himself, but does not see fit to forgive mere
mortals for doing the same thing.
... 23rd Rule of Creationism: Claim superiority for Christian education.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [2/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 06:50:25
EID:2d31 206c3640
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b3b3313a
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe90
On (09 Mar 96) Sue Armstrong wrote to Kenneth Cavness...
SA> It does seem that the system has worked well for you folks since
SA> your country's inception, and Dan mentioned that some states
SA> require their delegates to abide by public will .. but it still
SA> sounds like a very vulnerable area, open to abuse and machinations
SA> by those with dictatorial bents (assuming enough of them got
SA> together, and/or got to be College delegates.) Considering the
SA> military and economic power the US still weilds, it's not a
SA> comforting thought that someday, some way, an election might be
SA> engineered to serve the interests of who knows who, possibly to
SA> the detriment not only of your neighbours who might not always do
SA> what Congress and/or controlling special interests has in mind
SA> for them, but to US citizens (especially dissidents of whatever
SA> stripe) as well. Perhaps I misconstrued something here .. and I
SA> hope I have .. or I simply haven't gotten enough information yet
SA> to accurately go on.
Not to worry. When you vote for a candidate, you also vote for a
group of people to attend the electoral college. So, given that,
you are voting for people who are committed to that candidate.
It is true those people are only committed to that candidate for
the first vote, but that makes sense, too. What if there is a
tie or a deadlock? If they are committed for every vote, the
College would be voting the same way it had on the first ballot
until kingdom come.
While I have no love of the electoral system, and think it has
outlived its usefulness, that doesn't stop me from looking at
it as it is, rather than as my imagination thinks it is.
It made perfect sense in the days when it took maybe a week for
circuit riders to get a written message across country. It
would have been a snap for a handful of people to skew the outcome
of an election merely by shooting a few circuit riders carrying
the vote tallies from distant states. By having the equivalent
of a Congress, each packing one vote, elections were actually
more secure, not less. But now, in the age of instant
communication that lets us know the outcome down to the last
vote in the most distant state, the EC makes no real sense at
all.
The only valid argument I've ever heard for continuing the
EC is what happened when Nixon ran against Kennedy. At that
time, Chicago was essentially run by a Democrat Machine that
was controlled by Mayor Daley. "Registering voters" off the
names on tombstones was common practice. The margin by which
Kennedy won was so slim, that had he not taken Illinois and
its delegates, he'd've lost that election. But however many
electoral votes Illinois had, it was impossible for that
Machine to give its candidate any more votes than that,
regardless of how many dead people were registered to vote.
Had it not been for the electoral college, the Machine would
have had every reason to stuff the boxes will millions of
bogus ballots, instead of the thousands that they did.
Not the world's best argument, I know. But the only valid
one I've heard for continuing the process as it is.
... STATESMAN: n. A dead politician. We need more statesman.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: Congress
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:57:30
EID:14c0 206c7720
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31459142
THE CHRISTIAN COALITION WILL PAY FOR YOUR CALL TO CONGRESS
The following two telephone numbers will connect anyone in the U.S. to the
Capitol switchboard from where they can connect to any Congressional office:
1-800-962-3524
1-800-972-3524
The numbers are courtesy of the Christian Coalition which is providing them
to its members (and now to us). Please feel free to forward this message
to friends and family.
Enjoy. Just don't call from your home phone, unless you want junk mail from
the CC.
Oh, someone please forward this to Mikey as well. I'm sure it will make
him feel *soo* good. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:32:58
EID:8705 206c7c00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3145996d
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3144c64f
11 Mar 96 19:33, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
DW>> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
DW>> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
PS> I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner, but
PS> the computer center got the bright idea of going down during spring
PS> break to clean up things and give everybody a brand-new randomly
PS> generated-password. I love bureaucracies.)
Even UT is not that bad. :)
PS> You don't *look* like a Real, True Southern Male. You're not
PS> wearing a baseball cap with "CAT" printed on it, you're not
PS> wearing shitkicker boots, and you don't have a gut the size of
PS> Montana.
I see you've been taken in by the deception. *Those* people aren't R,T,
Southerners - they are the descendents of the carpetbaggers and other Yank
transplants. Do you doubt me? Take a drive through rural New Jersey (all
5 square acres of it) sometime.
You are forgiven this time, but don't make this mistake again.
PS> You look more like an engineering prof or some such.
Considering the amount of time I've spent in engineering, I *should* be
a professor. I could teach an intro class entitled "50 Reasons Why You Do
Not Want to go into Engineering." There would only be one lecture - "What?!
You're *still* here? Here's a map to the business college - get out of here
while you stil can!"
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:25:00
EID:7a8b 206c7b20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3145991c
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3144c650
11 Mar 96 19:33, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> If "tanks" had "assaulted" the compound, none of the BD's would
DW>> have survived to testify, pinhead. You do know what an 120mm main
DW>> gun does, don't you?
PS> Terry's thinking
Got any evidence for that claim? :)
PS> of the Bradleys that were used.
I know. Dumbasses that can't tell the difference between tanks and AFVs
have always annoyed me, though. It isn't so bad when Terry does it (since
we all know he's a dipshit anyway), but it happens all the time with the
military "experts" used by CNN and other news bureaus.
PS> A Bradley is an AFV, *NOT* an actual tank. Sure, they mount two
PS> TOWs, a 25 mm chain gun, and a 7.62 mm machine gun, but they
PS> aren't even anywhere near the same class as an Abrams.
Right. An Abrams carries the equivalent (almost) of a 5 inch deck gun. :)
PS> And a canister round from a 120 mm (yes, they do make such
PS> things) would probably have spelled the end of all of the
PS> BDs.
I didn't know they made canister rounds for it, but it doesn't
really surprise me. That's one hell of a shotgun.
Hmmm... 00 buckshot is pretty damn big. I wonder how the 120mm canister
is classified? Or is it just a hell of a lot more of the equivalent of 00?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: The Raven
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 06:06:23
EID:3d93 206d30c0
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Eval]
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3134895d
MSGID: 1:363/309.0 314665c7
TR> Because unlike you, I don't assume that the universe was created
TR> simply to produce me.
DM> Try though you might, I defy you to come up with a more
DM> dismal thought than a universe created to crank out an
DM> Andrew Masten.
Hurm... you may well be right...
... "A simple yes or no would have been fine." -- Tom Servo
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:11:00
EID:5310 206b4960
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3145f42b
A lone voice in the wilderness, Marty mournfully howled out "A tale of 2
cities..."
JS> Ok, so what's the problem? Where does it say in the BIble that bats
JS> aren't birds?
ML> It does not. It says they ARE birds. Here's a zoological
ML> news flash, you retard. Bats are mammals.
JS> Perhaps they are winged rodents?
ML> Perhaps they are Chriopterans.
Why does he remind me of Calvin insisting that bats are bugs?
Of course, even Calvin knows more than Staalie ever could dream of
knowing, the bat episode notwithstanding.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "I think it's GOOD that everyone becomes food." - Hobbes
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Abortion
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:15:01
EID:9277 206b49e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3145f42c
A lone voice in the wilderness, Marty mournfully howled out "Abortion"
DC> Heard of it, but never seen it around here... I take it, like
DC> Coor's, it's not worth it.
ML> HERETIC! INFIDEL! PERSECUTE THE UNBELIEVER!
ML> Foster's is THE Australian lager. Comes in big, hefty...
ML> dare say I...MANLY...cans; something like 1 pint 8 or so.
ML> High EtOh content and a damned good taste. I just noted the
ML> addition of a new green label lager to the Foster's line;
ML> especially fine as well.
Hehehehe. When I was there, I was explicitly told NOT to drink
Foster's - that's only for the tourists. Aussies themselves seem
to prefer brews like Toohey's and Victoria Bitter, both of which
are much nicer than Foster's, anyway. I prefer VB over any of the
various Toohey's varieties myself. There's also a Tasmanian brand
that's quite popular; can't remember the name, but they have the
Thylacine as its logo. Bars and clubs seem to move Toohey's, VB,
and other brands a lot quicker than Foster's, though, and the two
I mentioned are the ones most often found on draught. I only
noticed one Australian drink Foster's, and he was considered to
have rather bad taste in beer.
They also make a rather nice wheat beer called "Redback" - I was
given 5 bottles of it as a going-away present. Unfortunately,
it's all gone now, save for an empty bottle I washed and kept as a
souvenir.
Of course, I realise I'm speaking here to an American, and you're
probably used to beer that is less than ... well ... drinkable. I
also notice you seem to favour beer in CANS - how horrible.
Bottled beer is much superior in taste to stuff that's been
sitting in metal cans for who-knows-how-long, and draught is, of
course, better yet.
You Yanks really need to learn how to drink beer properly, and
appreciate REAL beer. :)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "I'm old! I don't like anything but Matlock!" - Grandpa Simpson
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Abortion enslaves wom
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:35:02
EID:9fb4 206b4c60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3145f42d
A lone voice in the wilderness, Kevin mournfully howled out "Abortion
enslaves wom"
SA> JB> She doesn't? Mine say plenty; where's my food? this cat box
SA> JB> stinks? get this lump of dog out of my face? I knew you didn't
SA> JB> really want to eat that, that's why I took it off your plate.
SA> JB> but your shoe was so full of sand I knew it was meant for me.
SA> JB> don't disturb me when I'm sleeping on your book. this keyboard
SA> JB> looks like the perfect place for a nap.
SA> JB> And from all of them (9) at least 3 times a day each...WHO---ME?
Missed this the first time. Ever heard Leslie Fish's "Feline
KDM> American Princess?" If not, I'll send you the lyrics.
Ooh. If you haven't done it already, I want to know the lyrics,
too. Kevin went and got me hooked on her music.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "Bother", said Pooh, as he cleaned and dressed the two JWs ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 11 Mar 96 12:11:03
EID:682f 206b6160
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3145f42e
A lone voice in the wilderness, David mournfully howled out "Churches"
KM> All right. What the *fuck* are you talking about?
DW> "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant (excepting
DW> Alice)"
DW> Run down to your local music store and look for Arlo Guthrie (make
DW> sure you get a CD with Alice's Restaurant).
Actually, it's called "Alice's Restaurant Massacree". AFAIK, you
can get it on two albums - _Alice's Restaurant_ and _The Best of
Arlo Guthrie_. I used to have the latter, but someone stole it
along the way, and I (mistakenly) replaced it with the former. I
receommend the Best Of album instead - it includes some rather
good songs, including "The City of New Orleans", a favourite of
mine I haven't heard in years.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... We were tailored to suit the Universe, not the Universe for us.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: the true nature of christ
|Date: 11 Mar 96 18:58:33
EID:5d66 206b9740
MSGID: 1:284/120 6c03120c
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011262
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to All <=-
RS> After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
RS> all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to
me
RS> that they do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the
RS> action, but rather they're attempting to save their own asses from
RS> eternal hellfire and such.
RS> It's a pity that I have had to expose them like this. The truth
RS> always hurts.
You speak in the past tense with "I have had to expose". Please show your
evidence that "all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches" and that
"they do not worship their god for the sake and glory of the action".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 13 Mar 96 13:15:56
EID:8705 206d69e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31470521
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31450FE9
Mark Barnett said "ANGEL FUNDY" to Becke Jones,
adding:
BJ> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
BJ> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is
your
BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
MB> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
Well, you can start with "Noah's Flood" and work your
way on through, taking everything for which there is no
corroborating evidence. That's the fiction. What is left,
rather the smaller part, is Jewish history.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Rice
|Sub: 'american 'athiest''
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:18:04
EID:e813 206a6a40
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1303f5
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID RICE spoke thusly to ALL :
DR>Apparently the National "Pro-Life" Association has set up a
DR>page on the Web calling themselves "American Athiests",
DR>masquerading as "American Atheists" under a deliberate
DR>misspelling of "atheist" into "athiest" (so as not to be
DR>sued, no doubt). It takes you to their Life Link Central:
DR>picture of a fetus [actually: miscarriage] with anti-abortion
DR>propaganda.
Something the *real* Atheists can't deal with because, with the
disappearance of the O'Hairs, they are apparently no longer active on
the internet. Sons of bitches.
... Insufficient Memory Error ... Remove that stupid BUFFERS=2037463 line.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Naim
|Sub: Re: artificial reproducti
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:36:05
EID:93cb 206a6c80
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c130406
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW NAIM spoke thusly to JIM GERMIQUET:
AN>Well you have a good Point ! But i still think over population is a
AN>big concern...
It is. With luck, we'll last another 50 years. With out it . . .
... Heather Locklear Scratch and Sniff->
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: big bird
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:40:06
EID:3d8d 206a6d00
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c130417
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
NORBERT SYKES spoke thusly to JUDITH BANDSMA:
NS> BTW, did you ever hear of escargot pizza? It deliver itself . . .
NS>
Yeah, but it takes *years*.
... Immorality - the morality of those having a better time.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:49:07
EID:b09e 206a6e20
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c130428
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
JG> FR> That's been debunked hundreds of times in this very forum and
JG> FR> was pretty much debunked when first claimed hundreds of years
JG> FR> ago. It ignores several facts entirely and doesn't address the
JG> FR> question.
JG>And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
JG>WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang". Oh yeah you will say
JG>it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will say my god came out
JG>of "nothingness". My god is YOUR "big bang". And you have about as
JG>much proof of where your "big bang" came from as I have of where
JG>"god" came from.
JG>
JG>You little religion is also based on faith. Some nothingness magician
JG>waved a nothingness wand and a "big bang" occured and flowers and
JG>rabbits started jumping out of hats 4.5 billion years later.
Hold it; let me get this straight: are you claiming that everything
must have a designer?
... I saw a light at the end of the tunnel - it was a train.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: "no true christian..."
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:56:08
EID:429e 206a8700
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c130439
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to DON MARTIN:
MH> 1 John 4:20: "If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother,
MH> he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has
MH> seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."
Luke 14:26
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
cannot be my disciple.
... "Our lady of blessed acceleration don't fail me now." -Elwood
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: your father
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:59:09
EID:7056 206a8760
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13044a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MARK STAAL spoke thusly to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT:
MS> I'm almost afraid to say this now, forseeing alot of flack for
MS> it but, Thank you, It is much appreciated. from you but from OTHERS on smoke... and they know who they
MS> are>
Who, George? If he raises his head again on this, I'll decapitate him.
... Ifyoutookthetimetoreadthisthenyouhavenolifewhatsoever
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Fof
|Date: 10 Mar 96 17:00:10
EID:acab 206a8800
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13045b
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
SUE ARMSTRONG spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
SA>A lone voice in the wilderness, Kevin mournfully howled out "Fof"
SA>
SA> RJ> 'Course, it didn't pick up the sobriquet "Popemobile"
SA> RJ> until after the bulletproof dome, jetpack, and
SA> RJ> Bat-grappling hooks were installed.
SA>
SA> KDM> So, does Popeman have a sidekick?
SA>
SA>Sure. Haven't you ever heard of "Altarboy"?
Holy . . . this was from *last* year! How far behind are you?
BTW, have you resent that netmail?
... My car battery got reversed, and now my horn sucks.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 17:00:11
EID:1fcf 206a8800
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13046c
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
KW>KDM>SW>I doubt it. More like a well established Christian
KW>KDM>SW>organization that has stood its ground when attacked by the
KW>KDM>SW>whimsical antics of the devil and his demons.
KW>
KW>KDM>Here we go again. Gonna cast out the demons again, Steve?
KW>
KW>I do hope so. I so enjoyed the results the last time he did it.
Me too. If I remember correctly, he left for about a month.
... "Boredom is the highest mental state." -- Einstein
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Or maybe just sugar
|Date: 11 Mar 96 23:12:12
EID:70ad 206bb980
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13047d
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to JUDITH BANDSMA:
JG> JB> And that's what the legislation in Colorado, and proposed in
JG> JB> Oregon, would do. When any one group is singled out like that,
JG> JB> and it is allowed to stand, we are ALL in danger of losing
JG> JB> rights that people have fought and died for.
JG> JB> Who knows...YOU could be next.
JG>
JG>I certainly would not approve of legislation that deny's the civil
JG>rights of anyone.
JG>Please explain what legislation this is, and how it denies the civil
JG>rights of anyone.
Amendment Two. It removed the rights of homosexuals to sue or take any
sort of legal action if they were descriminated against.
... Now entering Alabama. Please set your clocks back 20 years.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:07:13
EID:09bb 206c90e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13048e
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> KDM> It's been happening here, too. I *think* Planet Connect was
AS> KDM> having problems.
AS>
AS> Wouldn't suprise me.
The true wonder of Fidonet isn't how well it works, but that it works at
all.
AS> AS>smell permeated it. But I'm not sure the autistic ones really
AS> AS>realized what was going on at the time and
AS>
AS>
AS> KDM> I guess that's an . . . advantage, for lack of a better word.
AS>
AS> And of course, they may fully realize what's going on. Since they
AS>can't talk, who can say?
True, of course. I'm glad they're doing well.
AS> KDM> Smart kid. How old is he?
AS>
AS> Nine years old. He's the middle kid, but gets saddled with all the
AS> responsibility of an oldest kid.
How well does he interact with his brothers?
... After two weeks of dieting, all I lost was two weeks.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The 10 commandments
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:09:14
EID:c561 206c9120
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c13049f
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> AS> Do you think we could get a petition drawn up and send it to
AS> AS>Washington? I know several hundred people who would sign
AS> AS>it...and I'm sure you do, too.
AS>
AS> KDM> Can we classify Hootie and the Blowfish as Rap . . . whatevers,
AS> KDM> too? (Musicians or artists just doesn't work).
AS>
AS> Did you recently see the "Generation X" movie on Fox where the two
AS>older members of the group, Banshee and the White Queen, showed up
AS>as "Officer Hootie" and "Officer Blowfish" when they freed Jubilee
AS>from jail?
No, I missed that. I used to love watching the X-Men, but I prefer
sleep. "MAD TV" had a wonderful sketch on last week though, about white
rapper wanabes.
... Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The constellation
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:10:15
EID:114b 206c9140
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1304b0
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> KDM> I must. I'm not sure what *you're* implying.
AS>
AS> Let's just say, Asmodeus happens, and leave it that, shall we?
LOL!
AS> AS> I suspect I would have to sue Anton LeVay's Church of Satan for
AS> AS>inciting the youth. He's doubtless living with his parents. He
AS> AS>just strikes me as that sort, and is probably too young to sue,
AS> AS>anyway.
AS> KDM> Yep. People like him tend to be.
AS>
AS> Until their parents kick them out.
Or until he does something stupid and gets arrested.
... I multitask... I read in the bathroom!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Waco web site
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:11:16
EID:3151 206c9160
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1304c1
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> AS> Here's another one:
AS> AS>http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html.
AS>
AS> No, you're a special type of nut. You qualify for the "People"
AS> KDM> page.
AS>
AS> I'm honored. Sandwiched between Julia Roberts and Cindy Crawford, no
AS> doubt...or is that People Magazine...or is that personal fantasy?
AS>
I'm afraid all our Cindy Crawford positions are taken, but there's
an opening between Princess Di and Oprah Winfrey.
... "I found him. I have Jesus in the trunk." - George Carlin
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel fundy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:13:17
EID:448e 206c91a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1304d2
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MARK BARNETT spoke thusly to DAN CEPPA:
MB>DC>You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
MB>DC>any evidence for that, too?
MB>
MB>
MB>Well What Kind of evidence do you whant. You will find that any
MB>evidence that you find or that I find we will have points in them
MB>that we will disagree on the truth of it.
Yeah, and you'll be wrong. So, let's proceed.
MB>Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
MB>biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in
MB>question. These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is
MB>the oldest and the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and
MB>finaly the flood is talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say
MB>that a "God" caused a flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man
MB>and his familly and that he build a great boat and save animals and
MB>his family. and that when the flood was over he made a scriface to
MB>God.
Firstly, where's the geological evidence of a flood? Secondly, all of
the cultures with flood myths I am aware of lived in a near a river (not
surprising, as almost all cultures sprung up around them). Guess what
rivers tend to do?
MB>The main evidence I have is in the value I place in the book. I could
MB>also state that there as been a lot of Archaeological Evidence for
MB>that other Items in this Book. So I will say that I belive and I will
MB>try and get so evidence that you will find acceptable and get back to
MB>you.
You do that. Start with Sodom and Gomorrah.
MB> What do you belive in?
Very little.
... I ran today...the Good Humour truck was going 60 mph...
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Legend
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:14:18
EID:b3d2 206c91c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1304e3
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JUDITH BANDSMA spoke thusly to DAN CEPPA:
JB> DC> Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might
JB>add.
JB>Sound's almost like the restaurant here in town (Henry's) that serves
JB>deep fried grits. They come in a small block, sort of like a brick.
JB>Come to think about it, they also have the same consistency and taste
JB>as a brick.
So . . . how are they different from real grits?
... "Fuck it...who wants pie?" -- Dennis Miller
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Re: hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:17:19
EID:997d 206c9220
MSGID: 1:157/200 6c1304f4
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANNETTE SPENCE spoke thusly to KAREN DAVIS:
AS>KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe
AS>KD> I taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so. That's
AS>KD> fine, though gullible because there *is* an intentional untruth
AS>KD> in that statement. but if you're engaging in a thought
AS>KD> experiment, you have to open up to all the other logical options.
AS>KD> I think that's where many believers lose sight of the religious
AS>KD> skeptics.
AS>
AS>I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS>this kind of logic argument...he does it himself in one of his
AS>books.... Of course I may be
AS>posting this to the wrong person in the argument, but I just wanted
AS>to point out that there ARE christians who try to prove their point
AS>using YOUR argument style.
Care to try again? Alternativly, pick McDowell's 3 best
points, and we'll discuss them.
... Deja Voodo: Have I sacrificed this chicken before?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:17:00
EID:383b 206b4220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 00:44, Mark Barnett got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
DC> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
DC>You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
DC>any evidence for that, too?
MB> Well What Kind of evidence do you whant.
Evidence of a that single global flood would do. Got any?
MB> Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
MB> biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
MB> These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest
Isn't it a shame that the Gilgamesh epic predates your biblical
flood by just a few millenia. Even more of a shame that your
Noah's flood does not get written until after the diaspora into
Babylon.
MB> The main evidence I have is in the value I place in the book. I could
Try geological evidence of said global floods.
MB> also state that there as been a lot of Archaeological Evidence for
MB> that other Items in this Book.
Still no evidence of a global flood in there. In fact, the Egyptians
have no destroying flood myth, but have one based on the fact that
the flooding of the Nile provides food for their land.
MB> try and get so evidence that you will find acceptable and get back to
MB> you.
MB> What do you belive in?
Facts and evidence.
... Protect children from a faith worse than death; no bible in schools.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Roadrunner
|Sub: Re: Baha'i
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:21:00
EID:1454 206b42a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
This one's for you, Roadkill:
* Originally By: Al Schroeder
* Originally To: Dan Ceppa
* Originally Re: Re: Baha'i
* Original Area: HolySmoke
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
Ro> Where do you "kikes, hebes, hymies" get-off calling Christians
Ro> "fundies"?
Ahhhh...where do you get off calling JESUS...a Jew...PETER...a
Jew...John, the apostle...a Jew. David, Abraham, etc..."kikes, hebes,
hymies"? Or for that matter Albert Einstein, Steven Spielberg, Disraeli,
etc.?
I'M a Christian, Roadie, Christian enough to actually READ the Bible I
am espousing. Read John's epistles, how one who "hates his brother walks
in darkness". If you think it is CHRISTIAN to be a BIGOT and a NAZI
concerning ANY people, much less those who God Himself used to reveal His
word, and whom Jesus was born among...then your idea of Christianity is
even poorer than your idea of Judaism.
No wonder you're too COWARDLY to use your real name, and too
UNINTELLIGENT to resort to anything but racial epithets, and how much you
fit the description Jesus had when He said, "Many will call 'Lord, Lord,'
and I will say, I knew ye not". Are you under the odd impression that
peddling hate wins you any points with Jesus? Have you ever READ the
Bible? Or is your impression of the Bible only gleamed from the crosses
you burn in front of houses when you hide your face behind the white hood?
Have a LOVELY day.
... Did I.Q.s drop sharply when I wasn't looking?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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! Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 11 Mar 96 14:35:00
EID:460b 206b7460
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 15:20, Rick Mcfarlane got back to Dan Ceppa
RM> A CBC comedy show commented on it, very appropriately last night.
DC> The Royal Canadian Air Farce?
DC> Never heard of it...
RM> Actually, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", a weekly satirical look at the
RM> news, and a close relative of the Air Farce. (The title is a mix of
That one I have never hear of! What night is it on? I get at least
2 Canadian channels and will have to give it a watch... Thanks!
... Heresy n. Freedom of thought.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:07:00
EID:68ee 206b78e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 09:11, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
AM> things, like a computer. But how did mechanistic impersonal processes
AM> create personal moral intelligent people?
DC> In your case, the jury voted against you.
DC> Nature doesn't give a shit as to what a species evolves into, only
DC> that the species survives in the nitch that it finds. If it is
AM> That well suited animals thrive is self evident. Thats not
AM> evidence that we all evolved from cells formed in a premordial
AM> soup.
As I said above, you are still swimming in it.
DC> The only "mechanism" involved is survival of the species. It
DC> is handled in various ways, such as a large production of offspring
AM> Clearly many animals have formed symbiotic relationships. Termites
AM> have a organism living in thier digestive tracts that breaks down
At least you used the term "animals have formed". That progress.
AM> things. Did the termites start eating wood and then the organisms
AM> came. Or were the organisms first, then evolved a termite around
It doesn't really matter, as long as they have each acheived their
nitch. The same holds true for parasitic behavior. After all, a
parasite will die if it rapidly kills all it's hosts.
AM> survived. It says nothing about how atoms self assembled into
AM> humans. Or how inpersonal nature could create personal man.
We weren't talking about bioepsis, were were talking about evolution.
For the source of early organic compunds, all you have to do is
look into interstellar space and read the spectrograms and see
the organic "seed" material floating through space.
... Pi is equal to 3.0: God has a nasty habit of using base 10.472 JR
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:11:00
EID:68ee 206b7960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 09:30, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Why did you godling tell his desciples to take up the sword
DC> prior to that engagement?
AM>
AM> He didn't tell them to use it.
Isn't that just convenient: "Hey, guys, we're taking over the
Temple. Don't forget your swords! Just don't use them...."
DC> It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
DC> never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
DC> the non-believers.
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
Try asking the same question of a Moslem defending their land
against the Crusaders, Andy. There are far to many examples
like that for you to ignore, though I trust that you will thrust
your head into the sand.
... "Fundy Jews: Believers in the God of the Lost Vowel" J.j. Hitt
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:32:00
EID:66f0 206b7c00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 22:55, Mark Craig got back to All
MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of the
MC> world, prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
A 1,000 yrs have passed since that was written. The most powerful
and pervasive force since that time has been xianity.
... The one day you'd sell your soul, souls are a glut.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: External sources.
|Date: 11 Mar 96 15:36:00
EID:473c 206b7c80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893F0E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 19:22, Masochistic Maiden got back to Dan Ceppa
MM> right, different incentives. One is internally set, the other
MM> supported by external sources... Laws come into the outer sources for
DC> And, just what are these "external sources"?
MM> Usually the writings of people that others have found wise. If one can
MM> not define proper behavior without the teachings of someone... then
the
MM> behavior comes from an external source. If later the person learns
All knowledge is gleaned from the works of others. As Einstein,
I think, said: "I can only see this far because I am standing
on the shoulders of giants."
MM> by each other. My question might be... what are the internal sources
MM> beyond motivation by hunger, reproductive drive, concern for shelter,
MM> safety, and comfort.
Those are the basic instincts. As of late, the comfort drive has
taken far to large a roll in the species.
... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy and go well with Brie!
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