God Damned Fundies!
|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:30:18
EID:b4fa 206b8bc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b3f
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff01a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Germiquet said "Avoiding the Question" to Don Martin,
adding:
JG> How about letting a "newbie" take a shot at this one.
DM> A newbie who has apparently not taken the time to read very much
DM> of this echo before officiously braying more than two dozen posts to
DM> straighten out the various people here, thereby making a terrific
DM> first impression.
JG> I don't try to "straighten out" any people here although I realize
JG> that the way I post may make it seem that way. These are MY PERSONAL
JG> OPINIONS ! They are not ideas that I tell anyone else they have to
JG> believe. "Officiously" I hold no office. I am not a bible scholar which
JG> should be VERY obvious and I don't claim to be. Too many people just
JG> look up bible verses so they can shoot people down in flames
JG> "officially" with a quote from their favorite version of the bible.
I
JG> am not into that. I don't give two hoots whether you agree with me or
JG> not. I calls them as "I" sees em. You ? Believe whatever you choose.
JG> Its fine by me. Hope you afford me the same courtesy.
In other words, you reserve to yourself the right to
shoot off your mouth without the tedious necessity of having
to base your utterances on anything more than the workings
of your imagination. If it is true that you don't give two
hoots whether anybody agrees with you, why bother spewing
the stuff in the first place?
The "courtesy" this sort of verbal masturbation
generally receives is that people will not bother to read
your stuff except for its target possibilities. Have fun.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:38:05
EID:89a0 206b8cc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b40
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313f8804
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Preston Simpson said "Cult Christianity" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> I have been brooding a bit about this non-issue lately, finding
DM> it somewhat offensive without knowing why. To me, one of the great
PS> I too find it offensive, but I do know why. It seems to insinuate in
a
PS> somewhat subtle way that a person's skin color has something to do
PS> with their personality. In the broadest possible terms this is just
PS> possible; if someone has been horribly discriminated against on the
PS> basis of skin color and has suffered a warping of personality that
PS> would not have otherwise occurred, then one *might* say that that
PS> person's color had an effect on the victim's
PS> personality.
I think that personality types are generated in part by
the culture in which the kid is raised. Consider the
well-known survey in which Caucasian Americans attributed
their good grades to the fact that they were smart, while
Oriental Americans were convinced that their working hard
was responsible. There is a whole lotta space between those
two data points that would result is differences in
self-esteem, attitude, and interests--in short in
differences in personality that might appear to be linked
to the physical type.
DM> think you could say of Calvin that he offers a perfection
DM> rationalization of the faith, and that that is both his great
DM> strength and the greatest damage ever done to Christianity. The
DM> happiest religions are probably the most non-intellectualized.
PS> I agree with you completely. In my mind, the purposes of any religion
PS> with a hierarchy should be as follows (in no particular order):
PS> 1. To provide emotional support for the needy, those who cannot for
PS> some reason or another stand on their own either in day-to-day life
or
PS> under stressful circumstances.
PS> 2. To provide an expression for emotion that would not otherwise exist
PS> in a given culture.
PS> Unfortunately, religion is also used for a third purpose, that being
PS> to control the masses. It is not always used this way, but it
PS> frequently is and it's rather good at it.
PS> Those are the benefits of an emotional brand of religion. Intellectual
PS> religions, IMO, don't serve much of a purpose. Being intellectual,
PS> they appeal best to thinking human beings, and thinking human beings
PS> are, as far as my experience goes, not as likely as the average joe
to
PS> get roped into a religion.
When I speak of Calvin rationalizing Christianity and
the strength of his influence in this country, I did not
mean that the Christians were any good at intellectual
pursuits, just that they attempt to practice them. Notice
that the fundies here invariably respond with chapter and
verse for the Bible (a simulation of rationality) when asked
for evidence. It is only when the hope of rationality is
stripped from them that they give themselves over to the
pure emotionalism of shrieking "IS NOT!"
PS> Therefore, IMO, intellectual religions are
PS> very nearly oxymorons and self-defeating. Religion shouldn't be about
PS> thinking your way into a state of religious bliss. It's about providing
PS> a release, even for a little while, from what Shakespeare referred to
PS> as the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
The consolation is appealing.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:54:01
EID:7ce0 206b9ec0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b41
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3141d87f
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Andrew Masten said "Evidence" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
DC> never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
DC> the non-believers.
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
No, but one named Paul Hill recently carried the day in
a theological dispute with an abortionist by using a
12-guage shotgun. The word "sword" above is a metaphor for
the exercise of force in general, I suspect. Ceppa's
observation also covers the doings of the Inquisition, and
they never used swords at all.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:58:42
EID:efcb 206b9f40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b42
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan Ceppa said "Marines, etc." to Don Martin,
adding:
JB> my granddaughters again until Jordan is in school and Holly will be
at
DM> At our age, four years is just the instant from one set
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
DC> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DC> Going soft on sentiment, you old curmudgeon?
DC> After all, turn-about is most definitely fair play! :)
Some of us are only human, your deityship.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:00:51
EID:573f 206ba000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b43
REPLY: 1:3819/163 31427E3D
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Mark Barnett said "Angel Fundy" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
DC> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
DC>You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
DC>any evidence for that, too?
MB> Well What Kind of evidence do you whant. You will find that any
MB> evidence that you find or that I find we will have points in them that
MB> we will disagree on the truth of it.
MB> Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
MB> biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
MB> These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest
MB> and the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and finaly the flood
MB> is talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say that a "God"
MB> caused a flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man and his familly
MB> and that he build a great boat and save animals and his family. and
MB> that when the flood was over he made a scriface to God.
MB> The main evidence I have is in the value I place in the book. I could
MB> also state that there as been a lot of Archaeological Evidence for
MB> that other Items in this Book. So I will say that I belive and I will
MB> try and get so evidence that you will find acceptable and get back to
MB> you.
MB> What do you belive in?
Others have got this; you might as well:
Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
of the Noachan Flood. It avoids the problem of "how can there be
physical evidence for a spiritual being?" by focussing on one
instance in which that spiritual being supposedly interacted
physically with the physical world in a way that would have
produced distinctive physical consequences. While we have seen
fundies claim that their god is so deceitful as to cover his
tracks, I, for one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.
I do not concern myself here with the issue of the needed
two additional hydrospheres of water and its drainage out of
earth's gravity well, nor with the necessary consequences
resulting therefrom by operation of the laws of physics: the
atmospheric pressure resulting from a "vapor canopy" that would
prevent the existence of life as we know it, the heat release
from the condensation of that much water that would be
sufficient to melt lead anywhere in the atmosphere, etc. are
very serious impediments to the veracity of the story, but most,
if not all, fundies lack sufficient knowledge of physics to be
able to follow the reasoning. It only confuses them, leading
them to drag out yet another version of the Deceitful God, who,
they claim, sets the laws of physics aside his wonders to
perform. Instead, I simply take the Genesis account at its face
value, looking at the effects that much water falling at that
rate would inescapably have upon the face of the earth.
We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
rainfall per minute.
I would think that "gullywasher" fails to do this rate
justice, inasmuch as that term is applied to rainfalls of one or
two inches per hour. Suffice it to say that this rain would wash
away pretty much any particles smaller than Volkswagens and
deposit all of this in a single stratum covering the low-lying
areas world-wide.
We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
area on earth with its thickness varying in inverse proportion
to altitude), and we further know from the mechanics of
disposition of suspended solids in fluids the type and extent of
the stratum that would be laid down by a global flood. Those
larger particles would lie at the bottom of the stratum, with
progressively smaller bits covering them. In addition to that,
the contents of that stratum, the remains of ALL creatures
mingled together under optimal conditions for fossilization
(heavy sedimentation at great depths, with the finest materials
thickly sealing the top) are known: in short, a universal unique
event would produce a universal unique outcome--a stratum like
no other in the geologic column.
Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
a black hole.
So show us this stratum. That would be evidence.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:11:48
EID:ac24 206ba160
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31448b44
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 638d886b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt said "Cult Christianity" to Don Martin,
adding:
JH> It's no coincidence that the civil rights movement and it's
JH> leadership came out of the 'Black Church'. There was no other
JH> framework in place for organization.
Unlike the nests of white trash snake handlers, a
user-friendly environment. . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:18:12
EID:1b2d 206c0a40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcb
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141e629
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Katherine and David were killing time yakking about TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE
C:
DW> 08 Mar 96 17:27, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> SA>> chocolate pie with you when he gets it from Lynda...
DW>> He can have the whole damn thing. I've already said I'm not eating
DW>> anything she cooks. :)
KW> Coward.
DW> That shit ain't a-gonna work either, sweet-cheeks. :)
DW> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male scum
DW> - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't phase those
DW> of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
Real southern male, eh?
Ok....let's see....
How about if we offer you a MOON pie, and serve it in the back of a pick-up
truck after a lovely afternoon mud-riding. We'll even let your favorite
hound
dog lick it first. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Do Alabama babies have a southern drool?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:41:07
EID:44c8 206c0d20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcc
REPLY: 1:3819/163 3143BEDB
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dawn and Mark were killing time yakking about Angel Fundy:
DK>. I suppose in the next few days I'll see 2,000 questions from
DK>lurkers like Dan Ceppa and J.j. Hitt wanting to know who my SOURCES are
and
Lurkers? Dan Ceppa and J.J. Hitt?? LURKERS?!?!? What echo are YOU on?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Epitaph: So then I says, "How do I know you're the real angel of death?"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:51:57
EID:52c2 206c0e60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcd
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d71
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Jim were killing time yakking about DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
DC> That wasn't there, until about 1954. The original pledge read, "...
DC> one Nation, with Libery and Justice for all." McCarthy and his
DC> communist witch hunt had the "under god" inserted there. Pretty
DC> much the same reason that our money says, "in god we trust".
JG> Interesting, thanks for the history lesson :-)
JG> Having said that however, I am sure that many Americans would agree
JG> that there is a "spirit of god" within the hearts of many Americans.
Sure -- and in some Canadians, Mexicans, Germans, Englishmen, South Africans,
Australians, Koreans, Transylvanians, etc, etc, etc. There is nothing
INHERENTLY Christian about the United States.
JG> Having the freedom to admit that without fear of persecution has its
JG> good points and its bad points. The good point is that you can do it
JG> openly. The bad point is that you can also just use it as a label to
JG> impress people .
And labelling ourselves as a "Christian" nation, has also led to the arrogant
assumption that other countries AREN'T Christian, and therefore automatically
in the wrong in any dispute. By labelling ourselves a Christian nation,
we
are suggesting that "God is on OUR side". It makes it very easy to justify
whatever we do to nonchristian "enemies" -- be it placing Japanese-Americans
into concentration camps, shoving American Indians into the most desolate
portions of our country, burning villages in Vietnam, or bombing civilian
targets in Iraq. We can even justify our actions against other Christian
enemies -- because as long as they don't practice our peculiar American
brand
of Christianity, they aren't "true" Christians, so it's ok.
Certainly, we aren't the first to raise the banner of Christ in an effort
to
lend credence to political goals -- but as a country founded on the ideals
of
freedom for ALL, we should know better. It is an insult, both to the US
Constitution, and to the ideals of Christianity.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "It's time you learned that freedom is never a gift." -- Kirk
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:05:29
EID:a889 206c10a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edce
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31420ca8
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and David were killing time yakking about drool game:
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
DW> I'll give $20 to whoever makes Mikey leave for a month.
I think I get it -- Michael has to leave for a month, and he doesn't want
anyone here thinking they "ran him out", so he's controlling his exit.
This sort of reminds me of Willy Wonka's contest -- which reminds me of
chocolate -- which reminds me of....YOU!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Anti-Mickeys of the world: Unite
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:17:01
EID:a138 206c1220
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edcf
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314208eb
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and David were killing time yakking about Hello!:
DW> 08 Mar 96 22:29, Annette Spence wrote to Karen Davis:
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument...
DW> Remember when you though Annette was a "good" xtian?
:) So, she's mistaken -- I still like her. (Or to be more accurate, I haven't
read enough lately to have any negative feelings about her)
But, yeah, if I hadn't been in such a hurry when I scanned that, I would
have
typed up my initial response, which was "Ohhh, Annette, Noooooo!!!!!!"
But
it was too late anyway. Having already driven over the cliff, it was far
to
late for me to warn her to apply the brakes.
DW> I just had to rub your nose in it. :)
haha! I'm having a hard time feeling shamefaced about having my nosed
rubbed in it for giving someone the benefit of the doubt. If I'm going
to
be wrong, THAT'S the side I want to fall on.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A point of view is a matter of perspective...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: jim staal
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:25:30
EID:d029 206c1320
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd0
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31432fde
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Kevin and Mark were killing time yakking about jim staal:
-
MS> JB> I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My condolences
MS> JB> to you and your family. It is never easy to lose someone you
MS> JB> love.
MS> Thank you very much, It is very much appreciated.
MS> Hopefully no one will take this in the wrong way and ridicule
MS> you also for showing any sympathy in this matter.
KDM> I doubt it. We may be assholes, but we aren't cruel.
MS> ....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
MS> either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's
MS> George and the rice brothers.
What have the Rice bros. said to you about this? The only negative post
I've
seen regarding your father's death has come from George.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Mere life is not victory, mere death is not defeat.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:30:18
EID:97b8 206c13c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd1
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31420d09
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and David were killing time yakking about legislation:
MH> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
DW> Are you claiming Hammurabi was a god, Mikey? So much for you being a
DW> Christian.
DW> Would someone *not* in Mikey's twit filter please forward this to him?
DW> Thanks.
That depends. If this message winds up being forwarded by the Top Secret
Drool Winner, and results in Mike leaving for a month, will you still pay
the
$20.00, even if it was your words that resulted in his departure?
(If you say yes, every person in this echo is likely to forward him a copy
of
this post)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Please Tell Me if you Don't Get This Message
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Bible and The Bible alone
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:41:38
EID:4700 206c1520
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd2
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe94
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
David and Sue were killing time yakking about The Bible and The Bible alone:
LB>> so I can't see that you have anything to complain about. Nor can
LB>> I see why it should trouble you if I've found friendship instead
LB>> -- that doesn't seem to be what you want anyway.
JS> That you would have to sacrifice Biblical principles to do so is what
JS> would bother me, Lynda.
DW> Which Biblical principles has she sacrificed, Jim-bob?
SA>
SA> Why, she speaks her own mind, and doesn't let hubby do it for her,
SA> like Jimbo's wife does.
"Let"?! I was fortunate enough the second time around to marry a real man
--
it would never occur to him to TRY to do my thinking for me. :)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "I'm not Picard." - Sisko "How fortunate for me!" - Q
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:21:40
EID:0e8d 206c1aa0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd3
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Steve and Sue were killing time yakking about WHAT??:
SA> Hehehe. Say, it -has- been 10 years already, hasn't it? I'm
SA> surprised I haven't noticed any organised whinging about how
SA> dangerous space travel is, how NASA should be done away with, how
SA> we shouldn't waste money and possibly lives on trying to reach for
SA> the stars. Not that it matters much, anwyay - seems like all the
Oh, it's there, alright. NASA has been very hard hit by the government
cut
backs. It slows things down, but it is also forcing them to run things
more
like a business -- and to turn over financial responsibility for many of
their
projects to those who will ultimately benefit by them -- private industry.
SA> guts have been taken out of NASA since that one stupid little
SA> explosion. All they seem to do anymore is dippy-do "experiments"
SA> that don't seem to reveal much of anything at all .. hacking up
They aren't as exciting as the old days of breathlessly watching the Apollo
missions, but those dippy-do experiments are making improvements in our
daily
life most of us will never know about -- and in far more practical ways
then
just getting a thrill at rooting for "our" side in the Space Race. I have
a
file around here somewhere of the benefits NASA has helped bring about in
the
last couple of years. It's pretty long, and encompasses everything from
telecommunications, to medicine, to business efficiency. The heart hasn't
been taken out of NASA -- it has simply matured past its adolescence.
SA> mice that've been in space a mere week is nothing compared to
SA> studying the after-effects of Russians being on Mir for months at
SA> a time.
And one of the BEST things that is happening to NASA is that it is slowly
coming out of it's need to COMPETE with other countries' space programs
-- we
are beginning to realize that what Mir learns is good for us -- and sharing
what we know is good for us, too.
SA> What happened to the boldness of the Apollo project? So some
The Evil Empire toppled -- we no longer see every mission as being the final
bastion of democracy against the forces of communism.
SA> silly civilian died - big deal. She knew it might be dangerous
SA> when she went up - if she didn't, she was too dumb to be a
SA> teacher, anwyay. The character Q from ST:TNG probably said it
I'm not sure why you feel the need to put down McAuliffe in order to make
your
point -- you are right, one civilian death, while sad, does NOT mean that
exploration should stop. The exploration of space has been far less hazardous
then the exploration of our continent ever was. However, McAuliffe is not
to
blame for those who would stick their heads in the sand and insist we don't
continue in the attempt. She WAS aware of the risk -- as was her family
and students. She was interviewed shortly before the launch and said as
much.
I believe that if she could have done it again, she would have -- even knowing.
SA> even 10 years on. Granted, I have no say in how much money NASA
SA> gets; but I certainly wouldn't mind having my taxes go towards
SA> contribution towards a joint international space project of a more
SA> grandiose sort. I want to see a REAL space station/dock in my
SA> lifetime, damnit.
I'm in absolute agreement with you there! Unfortunately, you and I are
probably already too old to be allowed to actually GO -- but I'd like to
get
a phone call from my grandkids in space. :)
SA> I don't remember any of the moon landings; I
SA> was too young. I did, however, skip school (with mom's
SA> permission) to witness the first shuttle launch, and I still
SA> remmeber how exciting and hopeful it all was. There's risk in
Wow -- for some reason I thought you were my age. I remember the moon walk,
although I was a tad young to really understand the significance of it.
More emotionally riveting was the Apollo 13 thing, which my parents let
me
stay up to watch (I could no more have slept knowing that drama was taking
overhead than I could have flown up there to save them myself).
I was pregnant with my first daughter during the first shuttle mission --
after such a LONG absence from space, this was the most exciting thing I'd
seen in years. And even more profound than the launch (which was similar
to
the old launches, therefore not as "new") was the landing! We could go
into
space and come back normally -- not just toss our astronauts and all the
hardware into the ocean. That seemed like a real turning point for me.
The problem is, it looks like a very large, fast airplane when it lands.
It's ...boring. (To some -- I'm still fascinated) So NASA doesn't get the
airtime, until they have an accident, or lose a satellite. Funny, but
isn't that just like the railways (which used to be romantic and exciting),
or airflight (which used to be romantic and exciting)? When something becomes
a real part of our lives -- useful rather than glamourous -- we stop seeing
it, until it messes up.
So, as much as I miss the "old days" -- the days of dreaming about being
an
astronaut, the days when they were "heros" simply for getting to go,
>>> Continued to next message...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: [2/2] WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:47:55
EID:4a82 206c15e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3144edd4
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
>>> Part 2 of 2...
I'm kind of glad that it's gotten dull. It means that they can dig in and
do some real work instead of hitting golf balls on the moon, and scripting
patriotic patter for the astronauts to say. It means that they probably
WILL
eventually make it possible for my grandkids to break orbit.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... A centipede is an ant made to government specs.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:51:26
EID:4e7f 20696e60
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 31431f94
Hi George...
On 07 Mar 96 10:44:37, George Rudzinski penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
GR> Where have you been? It appears like I haven't seen you post in quite
GR> awhile.
I have a life... B-})
I'm in the middle of a genealogy project as well as some other
things. I haven't time to read HS much, although I get on the
IRC channel fairly regularly. There are just too many messages
to read many of them these days!
Besides... the internet takes up a LOT of time! I'm writing
HTML as well, although my own pages still suck. EMail me if you
want the URLs.
John
... musselj@cadvision.com
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 10 Mar 96 20:20:42
EID:5b0b 206aa280
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 b167de66
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA8
On (08 Mar 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Brad Jackson...
-> On 03-06-96 12:17, Brad Jackson got back to Masochistic Maiden
BJ> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
BJ> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
DC> Don't bother, as it closed before the end of the first Act...
That's Steve WINTERS' favorite citation! I wonder if he's here,
posting under a pseudonym!?
... Sight is a faculty; seeing is an art, observing is a science.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Ed Dutkiewicz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:55:50
EID:8f18 206b46e0
MSGID: 1:236/20.0 314430e6
> ED> As far as dating contemporary things, one does get false
> ED> old ages. For example, the grass near a highway always
> ED> shows that its millions years old, when one uses carbon 14
> ED> dating. This is due to the burning of fossil fuels which
> ED> contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14) dioxide
>+ ED> to carbon-12 dioxide.
> Huh?
> Do you have a reference for this? Carbon-14 isn't an "old" form
> of carbon, it's an UNSTABLE isotope. The older something is, the
> *LESS* C-14 it will contain.
> I'd be very interested in learning where you picked up this
> little tid-bit.
OOPS. You are correct that older organic material hass less carbon-14.
I should have said that the burning of fossil fuels contribute to lower
amount of C-14, which imitates a lower ratio of C(14) to carbon 12, which
gives a false *old age* reading.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: The Play Board (1:236/20)
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|From: Ed Dutkiewicz
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:01:04
EID:3053 206b4820
MSGID: 1:236/20.0 31443220
Dan Ceppa noted:
> ED> example, the grass near a highway always shows that its millions years
> ED> old, when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is due to the burning of
> ED> fossil fuels which contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14)
> ED> dioxide to carbon-12 dioxide.
>Nope, it don't work that way. It would test to be far younger, as
>C-14 breaks down into C-12. A high concentration of C-14 would make
>a sample look far younger than it really is. That's one reason that
>more than one sample test is used, as well as other dating techniques
>to ensure that a proper range exists for the test results.
Ooops, I screwed up on my explanation. I meant to say this:
The older organic material has less carbon-14.
I should have said that the burning of fossil fuels contribute to lower
amount of C-14, which imitates a lower ratio of carbon(14) to carbon 12.
This
CO2 mixture is picked up by the surrounding grass. Therefore the grass is
dated older than it really is.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: The Play Board (1:236/20)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:53:13
EID:fafc 206b9ea0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a519c930
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d69
On (10 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Not so. God "chooses" this limitation. He is not "bound" by it.
JG> He has designed the universe to work this way. God has GIVEN man
JG> freedom of choice.
MB> So he, of his own "free will" chooses a way that will cause
MB> untold pain to billions of human beings, not to mention the
MB> pain that way has caused other life forms. Nice guy, your
MB> god. But I don't think much of his choices.
JG> Perception , perception , perception. You CHOOSE to perceive it in
JG> a negative way. It is like jogging. WHat a stupid thing to do. It
JG> causes you discomfort and pain, you run around in a big circle and
JG> end up in the place you started.
JG> But there ARE benefits of jogging, in terms of health and growth and
JG> even spiritual and emotional well being.
But there are no benefits to natural disasters and the like, and
that's what we are talking about. How handy that you've deleted
the context above, so that fact would get lost. Your god CHOSE
to make a world full of pain and sorrow with no appreciable
benefits. He's an asshole. So, quit changing the context in order
to make him appear to be otherwise.
JG> Yes allowing us to CHOOSE what we do is going to produce "growing
JG> pains", but without growing pains you won't grow. The lifespan of a
JG> man is NOTHING in terms of eternity,The 2 million years we have been
JG> growing is also
JG> nothing in terms of eternity. Just as that 20 minutes of jogging is
JG> nothing in terms of the years of benefits you can recieve by doing it.
You're changing the context again. That's dishonest. Does your
god approve of you lying for his sake? My standards are apparently
higher than your god's, because I DON'T approve of your lying. Not
for a minute.
I am not talking about MY choices; I'm talking about the choice
HE made. He's an asshole, and so are you.
... "Here, fundy, fundy, fundy. Nice fundy...***<<>>***"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:46:01
EID:1376 206bb5c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 3144ad79
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CEB806
-=| On 07 Mar 96 03:03, Al Schroeder said: |=-
AS> Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
:-)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:52:02
EID:bf84 206bb680
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 3144af15
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
-=| On 07 Mar 96 23:01, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
Is it me, Mickey!?!? Huh??? Is it? As an aside, I'd be happy with a little
LD bill. As would Lynne!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 09 Mar 96 14:32:00
EID:7137 20697400
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 228e534e
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Brad Jackson <=-
> BJ> keep people in their sins. Water baptism is the re-birth of Water
> MM> Wouldn't be Church of Christ would you?
> Greetings.
No I don't belong to a church called Christ! I belong to the
> United Pentecostal Church. Of course we do believe in Jesus Christ.
That's your first mistake right there. If Jesus ever existed, he's been
dead for millennia and will remain that way.
> Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Nope.
> Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
> that believeth not shall [be damned].
> For that matter do you know who Jesus is?
Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour and supply the poisonous snakes.
> John 10:30 I and [Father are one].
> Some people today don't take the time to read the bible, which is
> God's word. They assume that their Pastor is telling the truth.
All THINKING people assume the Babble is lying, as well as their pastor.
And they are right, as the God of the Bible does NOT exist.
> You must follow up on everything that is be taught to you.
> Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.
> And if the blind [lead the blind], both shall fall into the ditch.
> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
And I would suggest that all Bible believers find a church that is Mark
16:15-18 teaching.
But I know they won't find ANY.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:00:01
EID:86d9 20697800
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 228e534f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6354b467
PID: FM 2.02
> JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to,
> JG> you will see he is making a distinction between "true"
> JG> christians and people who just "call themselves" christians.
> JG> So a true Christian is one who says " I am not going to
> JG> participate in these Crusades because it is against the
> JG> teachings of Christ". The ones who participate in something
> JG> that goes against the teachings of christ might CLAIM they
> "True Americans are those that will not join in voting for that commie
> Clinton and vote for whoever the Republicans put up."
> Does this look anything like your statement above? Does it make any
> more sense?
Not to mention that I can't seem to get these believing idiots to EVER be
able to produce evidence of their historicity in Crusader times!!
NEVER has anyone of fundie Protestant persuasion been able to show that
there were coreligionists of theirs prior to the birth of Ian Hus or Savonarola.
They refer to vague "heretics" in these ages, yes; but when confronted with
the actual beliefs these "heretics" had, they are found to have ONLY the
anti-papal point in common!!
The fact remains: if you believe that an early Roman Imperial era Jew named
Jesus was the very Creator of the Universe, you owe the Papacy the entirety
of your religion (with possible exceptions for certain Ethiopian Christians).
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:36:02
EID:6bb4 2069b480
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 22968d09
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Masochistic Maiden <=-
> NS> foods there for them to eat if they feel inclined to try them. My
> NS> youngest loves brussel sprouts because of this (heh heh heh), but
> NS> then, so do I.
> I should have known my youngest would turn out weird when, at the age
of
> 4, he LOVED liver and onions (and still does). And at the age of 8 we
> took
> him to a new fancy restaurant downtown (he's always had good manners).
> He
> saw escargot on the menu and wanted some. We tried to discourage
> him...even
> telling him it was snails...because they were fairly expensive. Then we
> figured we'd let him find out for himself.
> He loved them. So that became his special birthday food.
Here, Judith!! Have some Haggis!! :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:40:00
EID:ea39 206a6500
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442723
A lone voice in the wilderness, Michael mournfully howled out "animal abortions"
RS> This is clearly illustrated here in the Pacific Northwest. The timber
RS> battle has once again resurfaced after our wonderful congress in
RS> Washington D.C. tacked on a salvage timber rider to another bill. Of
RS> course the president signed it because the main bill was very important
RS> [this is where a line item veto would come in handy]. It basically
RS> allows timber companies to cut much more than before, wiping out the
RS> forests for centuries to come.
MH> You're comparing apples and pomegranates. I support environmental
MH> protection. You're absolutely right, maintaining the ecosystem is
MH> vitally important to our own survival.
MH> However, that's not the same as holding that every *individual*
MH> animal is of vital importance. What you do with your cat's fetuses
MH> isn't important to the overall health of the cat family. If your cat
MH> were one of the last seven on the planet, it would.
Not every human is vital to human survival, either, Mike. We
already have almost 6 billion of 'em, and a great majority of them
never realise their potential as it is. It's no good saying that
such and such a fetus might be the next Einstein - the next
Einstein could very well be some half-starved kid in Africa,
who was already born 6 years ago, but simply never had any
educational opportunities to let his mind grow enough (nor enough
food to keep it from stunting.) We don't need more humans,
either; we'd be much better off cultivating the humans that are
already here, rather than worrying about what might happen in the
future with some zygote.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Atheistgate 1
|Date: 10 Mar 96 12:57:01
EID:8943 206a6720
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442724
A lone voice in the wilderness, Gwenny mournfully howled out "Atheistgate
1"
->> group of followers had forsaken family and fortune.(16) After a
->> dramatic march on the capital, Jesus was suddenly
->> arrested and executed.
Hwy, Gwenny. Just came across this message - you've probably
heard most of it from others, but hey. I can't spend ALL my time
reading mail. :)
GtP> This reminded me of a show I watched last night on TLC. It was an
GtP> episode of Ancient Worlds entitled "Secrets of the Templar". The
This was an old BBC documentary, made by Baigent and Leigh, before
their book (with Henry Lincoln) "Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"
was published. I first saw the doco last year, but I've read the
book (and its follow-up) several times, so I'm familiar with their
ideas.
GtP> narrator made an interesting case for the Grail actually being the
GtP> bloodline of Jesus. He said that Jesus was alledgedly a direct
GtP> descendent of King David. He indicated that what Jesus's followers
GtP> saw in him was the ACTUAL king of the Jews, come to free them. He
GtP> recounts the legend that Mary of Magdalene brought the "sangreal" to
GtP> France. What if, he asked, sangreal was NOT san greal, the holy cup,
GtP> but sang real, the royal blood. So that what Mary ACTUALLY had was
GtP> the unborn son of Jesus. (Given that "grail" or cauldron is
GtP> frequently a pagan symbol for womb, esp. the womb of the Great Mother,
GtP> it could work) (Great! Even the ancient myth writers are punsters.
Yes; that was probably the most likely story I've heard about such
events yet. In the first book, it also suggests that the
mysterious Barrabas, who was released instead of Jesus, might have
been Jesus' heir as well. After all, why the hell should the same
Jews, who just days before were singing "Hosannas to the Son of
David" to Jesus, suddenly want him killed? Better to sacrifice
the King than his bloodline. And the bible never says who the
heck Barrabas was, probably for that very reason. Their thesis is
that most of the new testament has been edited and garbled
severely, with just hints and suggestions at what really went on
left over. Especially the touchier subjects - touchy, at least,
to the Romans and other Gentiles.
It also gives an account of Thomas - which, in Hebrew, means Twin.
He was also called Thomas Didymos - the latter word ALSO being
Greek for "Twin". Why call someone "Twin Twin"? Whose twin was
he? The painting The Last Supper, gives the clue. Look at it,
and you'll find Thomas looks EXACTLY like Jesus in that depiction
(and the painter, you will find if you read the book, was
supposedly mixed up with the mysterious Prieure de Sion, the
alleged keepers of the secret.
) He speculates that the REAL treasure of the Templars was the knowledge
GtP> that they were protecting the royal family of the line of King David.
There's actually more detail than that in the book, as well,
tracing the lineage through the lost Merovingian kings, with a
focus on Dagobert II, who was for some obscure (or is it?) reason
betrayed and killed by the Vatican, even though he himself was
Catholic, and not known to be a heritic. Also, the Merovingians,
all of them, were said to have "special powers" amongst their
subjects in France, including healing by the laying on of hands
(sound familiar?) The original king, Merovee, was said to have
had mysterious origins, including a sire from "across the sea",
represented by a mythical beast which has never been identified in
any other lore.
GtP> An interesting twist on this whole story is that there are those who
GtP> say that Mary of Magdalen was a priestess of Asarte (and with Mary
the
GtP> mother, she could represent the Goddess with Jesus as her son/lover).
GtP> Certainly, Solomon is traditionally one of the greatest magicians of
GtP> all time (and, damn, that COULD lend credence to the Masonic claim
GtP> that they trace their rituals back to Solomon's time). How ironic
if
GtP> what the fundies are ACTUALLY worshipping is the bloodline of the
GtP> lover/son/magician/king of the Goddess.
I don't remember any mention of this about the Magdalen, but the
book suggested she was only _called_ a whore by disciples who were
jealous of her, because she commanded Jesus' attention. It also
makes a good case that the wedding at Cana was that of Jesus and
Mary, and that the several Marys (excluding his mom) - Magdalen,
Mary of Bethany, etc - were one and the same. It also points out
that Jesus treated Mary very much like a wife, including making
her wait inside her mother's house until he bid her presence.
GtP> Anyway, the narrator contended that some group called the Priory of
GtP> Sion (which may have founded the Templars and had such illustrious
GtP> folk as Leonardo de Vinci as a member) existed into the current
GtP> century to protect the still existing bloodline of the Christos....the
GtP> Anointed King of Israel. Scary.
This was the more interesting theme of the first book, and was
followed up in the sequel, "The Messianic Legacy". At the end of
Book the Second, even the authors, however, have their doubts
whether or not the whole thing was a hoax. After all, the Prieure
seems to disappear several centuries ago, only to resurface (in
the form of publications in France hinting of a "mystery" in the
town of Rennes-les-Chateau, among other things) in the 1950s, and
then disappearing again with the resignation of M. Plantard from
the leadership of the Prieure in 1982. I would like to get these
authors' addresses, and see if they've dug anything new up on the
subject since then, though. I don't really buy into conspiracy
theories, but it's interesting, nonetheless.
And a more accurate goal of theirs would be to say that they wish
to restore the Merovingian kingly line to the throne of France
(and perhaps all of Europe); it just follows that the Merovingians
are believed, by the Preiure and the authors, to be able to trace
their bloodlines back through Jesus to David. The really
unnerving thing is the actual political machinations involved,
though it doesn't seem very likely to ever happen, M. Plantard's
veiled comments aside.
GtP> Actually, this is alot easier to believe that Jesus had a wife and
GtP> there are still direct descendents of him alive than the idea that
GtP> Jesus was some god.
Shit, even some extraordinarily rich, politically powerful, and
1,000 year old shadow organisation that was the force behind the
Templars before their split in .. 1099 (?) is more believable than
dead men walking.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Et in Arcadia ego ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: HI
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:04:02
EID:8d2b 206b0080
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442725
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve mournfully howled out "HI"
SA> The reverse is also true. [ref: SA] ;-)
SA> Whenever Sue Armstrong gets quoted, I instinctively go "WHAT?!
SA> I never said THAT!" :-D
SQ> Wait till you have a wife who shares your initials, and you're having
SQ> an e-mail conversation, trying to figure out who said what. :)
What's worse is, there are THREE SA's here. I didn't notice Sue
Alexander for the first little while, until I actually stopped to
read the posts I thought were mine, and realised something was
amiss. :\
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "Death is the cure of all diseases." -- Browne
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Holiday Greetings...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:10:03
EID:724f 206b0140
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442726
A lone voice in the wilderness, Gwenny mournfully howled out "Holiday Greetings..."
SW> Opinions vary, Let me ask you this then; What would it take to get you
SW> to believe? If the only way your gonna believe is through "scientific
SW> evidence" (so called anyway), then you have let the devil cheat you
out
SW> of your right to salvation.
GtP> My kidnapped daughter back in my arms by the end of the week and my
GtP> husband having a new job by Tuesday making at least 55K a year.
Good stuff. I think I'll order 20/20 vision (both eyes, with
possible repair of the left visual centre of my brain, if
necessary) and full-time work in my chosen field by the end of the
month. Not too much to ask for, and plenty if time to deliver.
Let's see if Stevie's big pink pixie in the sky can evidence
himself this way. Hey, this same diety supposedly "heals" all
those folks on the Benny Hinn show ...
I take it you didn't get yours, though, so I'm not going to hold
my breath.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Perot, Bush and Quayle: The millionaire, the skipper and Gilligan
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:30:04
EID:5ef8 206b03c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442727
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Staal
shows his colon..."
SQ> Let me guess: Harrison Ford said "The horror...the horror," right?
DC> No, that was said by Les Nessman.
I thought he was the one who said "Oh, the humanity!" :)
DC> ... "Honest to God, Big Guy, I thought turkeys could fly..." Herb
Tarlick
I recieved a lot of confused corrections over this over on
Evolution every time I used it (and you must have stolen the line
from the same place I did.) I corrected my tag to keep the folks
on Evolution from arguing about it for three weeks every time I
used it, as follows.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... As God is my witness .. I thought turkeys could fly! - Arthur Carlson
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: What the ???
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:49:05
EID:e595 206b0620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442728
A lone voice in the wilderness, Karl mournfully howled out "What the ???"
GTP>This is the Religious Food Fight Echo....grab a pie or duck.
KS> The duck was far tastier than the pie.
KS> But it was pretty good, too.
Hell, this is better than the food fights I remember at cadet
camp - and you don't get punishd for hitting MPs in the head with
boiled potatoes here, either. :)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "You do that one more time and I'm going to kick you in the ass" -PET
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [1/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:06
EID:edc5 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 31442729
>>> Part 1 of 3...
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve mournfully howled out "more Dan A.
Post"
RB> Anything in Revelation about airplanes? Or computers? Or
RB> telephones? But it got this 'mark in the hand' thing right,
RB> huh? Profound man, profound.
SW>
SW> There are tons of signs written in the Bible that point to the return
SW> of Christ to this world. (Time is short...)
All you've done is give strong evidence that you have no reading
comprehension.
SW> 1. Horseless carriages (cars) =Nahum 2:3,4 "The shields of his
SW> soldiers are red; the warriors are clad in scarlet. The metal on the
SW> chariots flashes on the day they are made ready; the spears of pine
are
SW> brandished. The chariots storm through the streets, rushing back and
Since when have cars been equipped with pine spears? Since when
are all cars red? I prefer metallic black cars myself, though
both that I've owned have been dark blue.
SW> forth through the squares. They look like flaming torches; they dart
They only look like "flaming torches" because of the line above,
which indicates that the chariots were red, and the drivers of
same were also clad in red.
SW> about like lightning."
To folks who've never seen real speed, a horse running at top
speed is "like lightning." When cars first came out, alarmed
folks demanded that the speed limit be capped at a whopping 15
mph, and even THAT was too quick for their blood. Trains of the
19th century didn't travel much faster, yet folk thought train
travel extremely zippy. A horse's top speed is 45 mph, though of
course, it can't keep that speed for long, and only those in
extreme haste ever pushed their animals that fast in the first
place.
SW> 2. Airplanes = (Isaiah 31:5) "Like birds hovering overhead, the Lord
SW> Almighty will shield Jerusalem; He will shield it and deliver it. He
SW> will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."
Your god is an airplane? Doesn't sound like planes to me; sounds
more like simple literary license, that in fact recalls the imagry
of the Egyptian god Nut, who represented the sky and was always
depicted as a man with long arms and legs covering the Earth.
SW> 3. The dessert blossoming as a rose (Isaiah 35:1) "The desert and the
SW> parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom..."
Psst -- deserts aren't blooming. In fact, desertification has
been increasing for the past 5,000 years or so, mostly due to
human activity. The Sahara, especially, has been widening its
extent steadily with no sign of shrinking or blossoming any time
soon, and much of the Middle East is drier than a Mormon bar. Not
to mention the fact that the deserts of the Southwestern US are
ALSO growing, and arable land in Australia continues to shrink
steadily as well.
Since I don't have an OT handy, and can't look up exactly what
these things say, I'll just take your comments of the next three
at face value.
SW> 4. The alignment of a ten-nation western confederacy (Daniel 2,7)
Er, the EC now has more than 10 member countries, Steve, and it
has for quite a few years now.
Also, countries/nation-states/city-states have always sought even
temporary confederacies in times of need.
SW> 5. The knowledge explosion (Daniel 12:4)
Knowledge has been "exploding" since the invention of writing,
though it's had false starts, sidetracks, and censorship along the
way, mostly due to close-minded Christians burning books and
censoring everything in sight.
SW> 6. Great increases in travel (Daniel 12:4)
Travel has also been "greatly increasing" over time. I'm sure
that Europeans of the 16th century thought travel was "greatly
increasing" with the colonisation of North America, and proceeded
apace once Botany Bay was "founded" a little over 200 years ago.
The invention of mercantile ships, and the increase of Greek
commerce and Roman exploration and conquest would have also
spurred a great deal of travel (to contemporary minds) long before
Jesus' time.
SW> 7. False Christs, and false prophets (Matthew 24:5,24 & 2 Peter 2:1)
And who might these be? All monotheistic beliefs say that anyone
else who speaks differently is a "false prophet". And heretics
have been burned by orthodox Christianity for over 1,000 years;
everyone from the Albigensians, Cathars, and Arians to the Knights
Templar have been accused of this and roasted.
SW> 8. Wars and rumers of wars (mark 13:7)
There have ALWAYS been wars (and rumours of same) ever since men
first started bashing other groups of men over the head with
clubs. Go read up on general world history, and see just how many
wars (both local and more wide-ranging) have been fought through
recorded time.
Besides, I notice Mark was smart enough to give himself a loophole
here, and say "don't worry, be happy. The wars are necessary, but
hey, it isn't the end yet."
SW> 9. famines, earthquakes in divers places, pestalences (Luke 21:11)
There've always been those, too. Earthquakes are simply caused by
the Earth's crust moving about. Famines are also natural,
cyclical occurrances when the weather or overused land fails to
yeild crops or enough food to gather and animals are overhunted or
die due to drought. Pestilence has always been with us as well,
even moreso than now. Ever hear of the Black Death? Killed 1/3
of the population of Europe about 500-600 years ago.
SW> 10. Iniquity abounding (Matthew 24:12)
All it says here is that "Because iniquity abounds, the love of
many shall wax cold". I'd like to know when "iniquity" DIDN'T
abound in human affairs.
SW> 11. The Gospel of the Kingdom preached to all the world (Matthew
SW> 24:14)
Not all the world wants to hear it, though. Notice that many
nations (especially non-Westernised ones) have kept their own
religious ways, despite the best efforts of missionaries at their
attempts of cultural homogenisation. Even modern Japan is still
primiarily Shinto and Buddhist. I doubt the !Kung people have
much use for your Jesus, either. There are also Indian tribes
still extant in South America who've never heard your gospel,
either, and would likely laugh at the quaint little stories the
preachers tell them if they did. These folk are quite happy the
way they are and would probably be worse off with your little
war-god and his contradictory "son".
SW> 12. Signs in the sun, moon and stars (luke 17:26-30, 21:25-27)
What sorts of "signs"? Are you a believer of astrology, then?
I notice that Luke 21:25 says "..the sea and the waves roaring".
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [2/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:07
EID:a9c5 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3144272a
>>> Part 2 of 3...
The sea and it's waves ALWAYS roar to some extent. Haven't you
ever seen an ocean? I've seen the Atlantic (from both sides), the
Aegean, the Mediterranian, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific
(from both sides). They ALWAYS roar. And just ask someone who
has lived near the Bay of Fundy if the sea "roars" - especially
with its famous tide comes in.
SW> 9. the introduction of evil spirits which control cults and false
SW> religions (1 Timothy 4:1,2)
Like Christianity?
SW> 10. The nineteen signs of 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Let's see what these are ...
"For men shall be lovers of their own selves" - that's always been
so; self-interest is a natural phenomenon, the prerequisite to the
survival instinct. Granted, as civilisation grows, self-interest
can be seen to be detrimental, which is why socialism and
communism were thought up in the first place (though oftimes
abused and taken advantage of by leaders with THEIR own
self-interest in mind.)
"boasters, proud" - Also a common, natural trait in humanity.
Just as the fox proudly brings his catch home to his mate and
kits, so men say "Look what I did!" And if one _has_ done
something worthy, he is well within his rights to be proud and
boast a bit, so long as his boasting doesn't get tiresome to
others and his pride hinder him from continuing to do well.
"blashphemers" - Especially with monotheistic religions, ANYONE
who doesn't toe the party line down to the last jot and tittle is
considered a "blasphemer"; this charge has been applied for
centuries to those with dissenting views.
"disobedient to parents" - It is a rite of passage that as
children grow, they begin to assert their individuality more and
more - this process, in fact, begins about age 2 (or sooner,
especially after the little rugrat learns that S/HE can use the
word "no", too.) And kids growing up before the 20th century grew
up much faster than children do now; not chronologically, but they
were burdened with much more responsibility than children are now,
and were forced to think and take care of themselves earlier than
they are in Western society of today. Many Indian tribes,
particularly the Hurons, were very indulgent with children, and
never hit them, and such children were trusted to play alone in
the forests safely. If you haven't seen it yet, I suggest you get
a hold of a copy of the Botswanan film "The Gods Must Be Crazy 2",
for a look at how children can handle themselves in emergency
situations if allowed to - and taught to - think, act, and care
for themselves when needs be. Granted, the kids get themselves in
a bit of a mess, but Western children would never survive such an
ordeal, being maturationally handicapped by our culture. Hell,
take a look at "Schindler's List", and watch the little girl in
the red coat; that was an _actual_ occurence, and the child acted
on her own in an attempt to save her own life. Most ADULTS of the
1990s wouldn't have any clue as to what to do in such a situation
(and folks like you would simply do as they were told.)
"unthankful, unholy" - Again, that's a common charge of folks who
don't hold x party line - in religion and politics. (Look at how
Harris simply can't understand why people aren't "thankful" he's
doing what he's doing.)
"Without natural affection" - There've always been callous people.
Ever heard of Atilla the Hun? Also keep in mind that "The Enemy",
no matter WHO it's claimed to be, is ALWAYS portrayed as being
completely emotionless. Makes them easier to kill that way.
"trucebreakers" - Truces and treaties have been broken by one
signatory or another down through the ages. Go read some history
books.
"false accusers" - Christians best fit the bill here on that
count.
"incontinent" - ROFL!
"fierce, despisers of those who are good" - Again, this sounds
like nothing more than simple war propaganda that has echoed for
thousands of years on both sides of conflicts.
"Traitors" - Traitors (to king, country, and gods) have always
existed, from before Brutus up to Benedict Arnold and Brian
Mulroney. And who is and isn't a traitor is a matter of
perspective; Stalin is now (rightly) considered a traitor to
HIS country by his own countrymates, for everything from the
gulags to the selling of the treasures of the Hermitage (which,
of course, he had absolutely no right to sell.) Conversely,
Benedict Arnold, to the British, isn't seen in a bad light.
"heady, highminded" - There've always been snobs. The snobby will
be with us forever; even if everyone had exactly the same thing,
folks would find SOMETHING to be snobby about.
"lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God" - See entry under
"blasphemers". Those who choose to wear hair shirts to
demonstrate their piety always act snobby towards those who wear
silk while bowing. Why? Well, the folks with the silk might be
rich, but the hair-shirted folk make themselves feel better by
considering themselves more worthy of their god's attention,
simply because they wear hair shirts.
"Having the form of godliness .." Again, this can be answered by
the paragraph above. It's simply another version of "he ain't a
Real, True Christian."
SW> 11. The hoarding of gold and silver, and its final demise (James
SW> 5:1-3)
Sigh. Gold, silver, and other monetary wealth has always been
hoarded. The story of King Midas - and the actual, and also very
rich, King Minos - were around long before the NT, and both of
these figures were hoarders. In fact, hoarding of coins was a
serious problem in the ancient world - as was counterfeiting,
which is why engravings were introduced on coinage (as a mark that
the money was trustworthy), though it still didn't stop
counterfeiting, or the fact that many people shaved the sides of
coins (the metal shavings could be melted and reused when enough
accumulated.)
SW> 12. False prophets denying the deity of Christ (2 Peter 2:1-3)
You're repeating yourself. Again, this is just a nice, blanket
charge to make sure the flock doesn't get influenced into thinking
for itself.
SW> 13. Scoffers mocking the second coming of Christ(2 Peter 2:1-3)
And why not? It's taken him 2,000 years already, even though he
said himself that he'd be back in the lifetime of his disciples.
SW> 14. The invention of the atom bomb (2 Peter 3:10)
Says nothing there about atomic bombs. The description may appear
to be similar of that which happens during a nuclear explosion,
but it does NOT mention anything about man-made bombs utilising
nuclear fission. Keep in mind that YHWH was considered by Hebrews
to be a war or thunder god, and the description can easily be
taken to describe a massive lightning strike (thunder makes a
"great noise", and lightning can certainly melt things it
strikes.)
SW> 15 Lethargy and indifference among God's people (compared to the
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post [3/3]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:01:08
EID:55c4 206b0820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3144272b
>>> Part 3 of 3...
SW> Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-16)
Another attempt to keep dissenters down.
SW> 16. The judgments described in the Book of Revelation 3:14-16)
I don't see any prophecies there.
SW> Every one of these prophecies is already in progress. The stage is
SW> being set right now for the fulfillment of Scripture.
Most of these "prophecies" you mention mean absolutely
nothing, at least to those with a knowledge of history and human
nature. Folks have been crying woe and doom well before
Christianity, and will continue to do so for as long as the
species lasts. Any "doom", however, will most likely come from
our own hands, not those of any gods.
SW> Ive listed some of the scriptures that deal with Bible prophecy. Take
SW> the time to look them up and go over them.
I have, unfortunately. It was a complete waste of time.
SW> It says in the Bible "And the beast was taken, and with him the false
SW> prophet that wrought miracles before him,with which he decieved them
SW> that had the mark of the beast, and them that had recieved the mark
of
SW> the beast and them that worshipped his image. These were both cast alive
SW> into a lake of fireburning with brimstone." -Revelation 19:20
For one thing, the bible has always been on my 'least favourite
book ' list for its linking of "beasts" with everything bad. What
on Earth did the bible writers (and presumably, YHWH) have against
animals?
SW> It says in the Bible "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
SW> judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were
SW> beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which
SW> "had not" worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved
SW> his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
SW> reigned with Christ a thousand years." -Revelation 20:4
You said you once were into drugs heavily - did not that
experience teach you to recognise a drug-induced hallucination
when you see it?
SW> If someone takes the mark, they are automatically going to hell and
will
SW> not find forgiveness or mercy.
And what mark might that be? The "daily pass" stamp on the hand
you get at Disney World?
SW> May God open your eyes as you read the truth of scripture.
May wisdom open your eyes enough so that you see the real world,
and go read some real books.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Baldrick, you have the intellectual capacity of a dirty potato.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: John Oliver
|To: All
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 8:52:00
EID:9f8e 206b4680
MSGID: 1:246/148@fidonet 2388d381
PID: QE 2.80 Zeta 1+ & FM 2.12.SW UNREG
Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD mailer
is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
---
* Origin: [ Pink Triangle ] Silence = Death /\ (519)-255-1048 (1:246/148)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Time saver
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:21:44
EID:a85e 206a82a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437056
MM>DW> The laws of inertia apply to all things, even subject headers. :-)
KS> Thing is, most people don't even read them.
Then they must have lots more free time than I do. I don't even work and
I can't read all of every post to find what's interesting. I guess it's
just my fear of missing someting really worth having.
However, I'm adjusting...I've found a pretty quick alternative.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:24:52
EID:cf8c 206a8300
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437057
KM> Of course. IMO, people need something for them to lean on, whether
KM> itbe a god, or a dream, or people, or whatever. As long as their
KM> beliefdoesn't hurt anyone, I have no problem with it.
Hey, that I can live with as well.
KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
That's what most things boil down to. People are driven by the desire to
have fun! (And here I thought it was only girls.)
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Sugar coat?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:26:35
EID:5cdd 206a8340
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437058
BJ> whether it be a politician, the clergy, or your local TV evangelist.
BJ> Everyonehas an ulterior motive, no matter how much they sugar coat
BJ> it...
I just try to discover my own ulterior motives. That way, I can act rather
than just react.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: Thinking!
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:32:21
EID:c1e6 206a8400
MSGID: 1:352/266 31437059
BJ> think.I attended high school in the late 80's. What you basically
I was teaching at the college during those years. I relized the change
in student ability to put their thoughts into words.
Just last night me and a friend were discussing that schools no longer wanted
students who actively question every thing presented. They want easily managed
groups that regurgitate information.
I feel that thinking should be taught from a very early age rather than
waiting until college.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Enjoyment
|Date: 10 Mar 96 16:56:05
EID:446a 206a8700
MSGID: 1:352/266 3143705A
KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
Hmmm then debunking fundies is ok for entertainment qualities? I think
for me that would depend on the persons character a bit. I really don't
want to ruin a persons life just the get them to crack. For some, religion,
or whatever type, is the one strong port on a very stormy sea. For others,
its just a comfort.
For me it's an intense curiosity.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 16:58:58
EID:9f54 206b8740
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
MB> McDowell's "argument style" has been torn to shreds many times
MB> in this forum. He's an idiot, without a modicum of understanding
MB> regarding the meaning of the term "fallacy."
well then, I would say DON'T read his book.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:00:09
EID:5180 206b8800
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
NS> Oh, this is going to get juicy, I can tell . . .
Sigh.
NS> Last chance for insurance, Anneette! (G)
How much do you charge?
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 17:10:40
EID:8948 206b8940
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
KD> I'm trying to understand you here - I see Christians as very black/white
KD> logicians - either THEIR god exists or none does, Pascal's wager, etc.
I was specifically referring to the book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict"
Chapters 5 - 10. He spends a lot of time using the IF-THEN arguments for
proving Christ. I was not saying it was or was not true just that there was a christian out there that handled that kind
of style.
and I would actually say that for us christians isn't EITHER my God exists
OR none does .... BUT MY god exists, yours doesn't.
Not that I would really care to get into a fight avbu ack.... about THAT
on this base.
.s
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else
|Date: 11 Mar 96 22:54:00
EID:10ce aa0464e0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 239665d7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A1
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> Dr. Lane P. Lester holds a Ph.D. in genetics from
> Perdue. Dr. Raymond
> G. Bohlin holds a Ph.D. in genetics from the
> University of Texas.
> They are both creationists. There is a Harvard-
> educated paleontologist
> in Tennessee, whose name I can't recall but can look
> up Monday, who is
> a creationist.
> But why is it that there are people who are well-
> educated in
> disciplines where evolution is assumed, who hold
> degrees from
> prestigious non-sectarian institutions, who reject
> evolution if
> evolution is so obviously true?
I have a suggestion on that score. About 1% of the population suffers from
some form of schizophrenia. There are in the neighborhood of half a million
professional scientists in this country. As several forms of schizophrenia
tend to manifest later in life, and they are often associated with otherwise
high intelligence, there is no reason to expect the proportion of schizophrenic
scientists to be much lower than the proportion of schizophrenics in general.
There should thus be a few thousand of them.
I don't wish to state that this is the explanation of Lester or Bohlin;
I don't know anything about them. The more important point is that there
are so many people with Ph.D.'s these days that it'd be surprising if you
didn't find a large (not proportionately but absolutely) number of crackpots,
even apart from those who are clinically insane. Thus, I find the question
of why mainstream biologists don't take creationism at all seriously much
more enlightening than the question of why one or two isolated individuals
do; there are too many possible answers to the latter question that have
nothing to do with the truth or reasonability of the theory.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:37:42
EID:f984 206a54a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321dd
Judith Bandsma said "Marines, etc." to Don Martin, adding:
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
JB>
JB> I know. I'll also be limited as to what I can send them while
JB> they are in Turkey. Oh well, it will be good for the kids to see other
JB> cultures. But I hope to hell Mike and Jo will get a computer and an
JB> internet account while they are there. Long letters, hand written,
JB> have NEVER been popular with me.
I was reading an article a week or so ago (cannot remember
where, when, or whose--with old age the brain rots) in which the
author mentions in passing trying email and discovering that it was
the perfect way of keeping in touch, precisely because it IS
trivial. It lets you transmit easily the silly stuff you would not
otherwise write down and put a stamp on. To me the interesting thing
is his insight that love, friendship, family, etc. are not
maintained by the Important Stuff (how often do you really get
anything very important in your life?--Lou's job problem seems to be
the last biggie), but by the trifles that make up our daily
existence. When you spread your toast with soup stock base instead
of apple butter and share it, you keep the feelings and laughter
alive.
I do hope they get an email account for you and the kids if for
no one else. A couple of notes a day is a joy, especially in a
strange place (and Turkey is, by all accounts, pretty strange . . .
).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Doctrine
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:59:02
EID:ebca 206a5760
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321de
DAVID RICE said "Doctrine" to BRAD JACKSON, adding:
BJ> Greetings! I was give this track yesterday by a very good friend
BJ> out-lining the:
DR> With friends like that, you don't need enemies!
DR> Why don't your "friends" just brutally rape you while they're
DR> at it?
With friends like THAT, you wouldn't need enemas, either.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:16:52
EID:db24 206a5a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321df
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893A0E2C
Dan Ceppa said "REDACTED STORIES" to Don Martin, adding:
JB> Better yet, send her to your mother-in-law until then. After all,
DC> I intend to protect my daughter, not torture her!
DM> It's gonna be pretty tough preserving your 'god' status
DM> around here with them kinda sentiments, podner . . .
DC> ROTF! You got to remember, unlike Kenny Mcabee's god, I don't
DC> require the sacrifice of children!
KNOCK IT OFF! One nicey-nice god like yourself makes all of the
rest look bad. The least you could do is deflower a virgin or two to
show your brother dieties that your heart is in the right place.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:27:34
EID:c4bc 206a5b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e0
Norbert Sykes said "A tale of 2 inerrantists" to Jim Germiquet, adding:
JG> Naming was a process that took place AFTER the animals had been
JG> created. I would suppose it would take some time to name all the
JG> animals, in between naming the plants and other such things.
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was an
NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
Cruel to the ants and not all that kind to the anteater: imagine
the creepy sensation that poor thing must have endured when taking a
dump? Given that this animal eats nothing else, it must have been
one of the most ardent cheerleaders for the original sin to take
place before it starved to death.
At the head of your post, you have:
NS> A tale of 2 inerrantists:
NS> 1% Rick Mcfarlane, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
Anything containing 10% Germiquet MUST have more than 49% inert
materials in it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:48:27
EID:69d4 206a5e00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e1
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2286404f
Jim Germiquet said "A LITTLE HELP FROM SP" to David Worrell, adding:
JG> God is limited
DW> Really? You do realize you are directly contravening 2000 years of
DW> Christian thought here, don't you? What makes your opinion more valid
DW> than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
JG> and make them completely meaningless by themselves.
Bunky, your words are mostly meaningless at their birth; no
judicious editing of ours could hope to make them more fatuous than
they already are. Your big problem is that you insist on spouting
300 at a go instead of confining yourself to some simple point.
JG> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW> your opinion more valid.
Notice that in Dave's redaction, he left a complete independent
clause: subject -- verb -- predicate adjective: it is capable of
standing alone as a basic unit of discourse. Your attempt with his
contains no verb and therefore not an independent clause nor much of
anything else. With such linguistic incompetence, you show a great
deal of sheer, putrescent gall when you accuse anyone else of making
your stuff meaningless.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:57:59
EID:967a 206a5f20
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e2
REPLY: 1:352/266 314114DF
Masochistic Maiden said "Quoting" to Katherine Wintersnight, adding:
MM> Hmmm I prefer to read paraphrased views of books condensed into short
MM> easily remembered statements. And I don't want anyone on their knees
MM> to me... I'd think they were indicating how short I am. heheeh
KW> digestedpablum. The only real no-no in here is editing or changing
KW> someoneelse's post (substituting '****' for 'fuck', for example).
KW> That is theonly thing that I have seen Styx boot a poster for.
MM> No problem, I firmly detest cenosrship.
If you really "prefer to read paraphrased views of books
condensed into short easily remembered statements," how the hell
could you RECOGNIZE a genuine instance of unlabeled censorship? You
make yourself sound like a pushover for any intellectual
manipulator who comes down the pike: all he has to do is convert
somebody else's ideas into easily remembered statements. That
appears to have been David Koresh's technique, and it works very
well with some people.
LAter, you say to Dan Cepa:
DC> Not quite... the nasty fact of evidence is required to support
DC> a theory, as well as predictions based on that theory. Otherwise,
DC> you may has well believe in the Easter Bunny.
MM> Oh, the old must have evidence to exist thing. Uh try this. Take a
MM> colorblind man, and try to give him evidence that color exists. Other
One of the most frequent (non)responses we get from fundies to
requests for evidence is the attempt to cite some problem with the
perceiver when no evidence is seen. I have been frequently told that
I do not see god, not because there is no god there to see, but
because I "have hardened my heart" and am therefore incapable of
seeing gods. How all these fundies know so much at long distance
about the condition of my heart remains a mystery, but it is still
irrelevant: is any evidence for the postulated god visible?
You attempt something of the same thing with the defective
perceiver, only you choose as your exemplar a person with a
quantifiable defect. Certainly it may be difficult to convince a
color-blind person of the existence of color (though most people I
have met who were color blind were well aware of the existence of
color and of their incapacity to see as other do; I presume,
incidentally, that you are talking about the totally color-blind
here and not about the much more numerous set of persons with
color-weak vision), but that difficulty has no impact whatsoever
upon the acceptance of color by the 97% of people (rather a large
majority) who happen to be more normal in respect to color vision.
Fishing among the 3% for some sort of example looks more like
desperation than an argument.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Verdict in Search of Idiots
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:34:25
EID:313f 206a6c40
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314321e3
Annette Spence said "Hello!" to Karen Davis, adding:
KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so. That's fine,
KD> though gullible because there *is* an intentional untruth in that
KD> statement. but if you're engaging in a thought experiment, you have
to
KD> open up to all the other logical options. I think that's where many
KD> believers lose sight of the religious skeptics.
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind