God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:03:00
--------
EID:f14b 1b8a2860
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Dr Pepper saying to Charlie Wilson:
DP> Sorry, i have made it a personal rule to only discuss it on Evolution
DP> or on the Usenet area talk.origins.
DP> Sure. Dave James, who holds the position of Western Star, carries
DP> absolutlely everything. His numbers are 702-656-2482, 655-0853,
DP> 658-3781.
DP> 10 2
DP> DR PEPPER
DP> 4
See you there as soon as I've configured everything accordingly!
(Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a pseudonym?)
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertising
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:14:00
--------
EID:2c91 1b8a29c0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Steve Quarrella saying to Charlie Wilson:
SQ> With: Rick Moen
SQ> Hwaet, Charlie!
RM> Charlie, William Poundstone has a pretty good list (including
RM> alleged examples and what the seemed to him to actually be) in
RM> his book _Big Secrets_. Highly recommended, as a very
SQ>
SQ> Also, Poundstone has done BIGGER SECRETS and BIGGEST SECRETS. Great
SQ> stuff.
Thanx to you as well as the cheery Rick M. Appreciated.
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:28:00
--------
EID:4205 1b8a2b80
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Rick Moen @ 916/1008 saying to Charlie Wilson:
>> Folks, need I say more? ;->
>
> Yes....like the rest of the msg....which you're obviously afraid
> of posting. A shame, since it becomes obvious you're trying so hard
> to impress your fellow echo-lurkers. Would you bother to quote me
> properly if I had said "Richard" or "Ricardo" or _whatever_? Should I
> include any quote by you with a disclaimer that you're on the board of
> directors of some outfit? Why is it you're unable to be consise,
> accurate and perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
RM@9>
RM@9> I thought it most entertaining that, in a message of such rather (um)
RM@9> querulous tone, you said I was engaging in "a childish game" in the
RM@9> exact same breath as you calling me "Ricky".
Only in _reply_, mon ami, only in reply.
RM@9> It's equally entertaining that you're now continuing in the same
RM@9> vein, with _yet more_ name-calling tactics, and petulantly continuing
RM@9> to demand point-by-point replies to such material. You know, this
RM@9> experience may do you some good, by introducing you to the concept
of
RM@9> delayed gratification of one's wishes. ;->
And it's too bad you are still unable/unwilling to provide complete,
accurate quotes. What name-calling? We _both_ know for a fact (as does
every person in this echo who read that reply) you carefully inserted your
"credentials" in your first reply to me. Why can't you have the basic
maturity to acknowledge it? Why did you do it in the first place?
My only wish is that you would learn to completely quote people who
speak in this echo. Lighten up....for the most part I'm on _your_ side;
I just despise twisting of peoples complete posts to suit a personal
agenda. (I like the "petulant" part....talk about a personal opinion!)
Sincerely - Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertising
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:29:00
--------
EID:3d21 1b8a2ba0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Erin Corliss saying to Charlie Wilson:
> voice stuff on LP's I only know of two examples, personally,
> where the
> speech was reversed and neither one had diddly-squat to do
> with anything
> "evil."
EC> I can remember two examples of that. Both basically said "Hey, look
EC> at the idiot who's running his record backwards..."
What were they?
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Steve Hendren
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Whackos in Russia
Date: 09 Dec 93 15:21:51
--------
EID:bdfe 1b897aa0
On (07 Dec 93) Kerry Penny wrote to Fredric Rice...
KP> FR> All of the genetic information required is present for
KP> FR> a cell to begin division and to continue to divide
KP> FR> until a baby is born. How the cell begins to divide,
KP> FR> I wouldn't know. I read that the child is always
KP> FR> female but that it dies quickly.
KP>
KP> I differ with that opinion. The egg has only half of the genetic
KP> material needed to provide fission into something that would resemble
KP> a human embryo. I won't dispute that perhaps it might split as is,
KP> but certainly not as something easily recognizable. I am not a
KP> biologist, though, so I can't state with any certainty that I am right
KP> on this. But, what the heck, I _am_ right anyway. ;)
Actually, what he's referring to is called parthenogenesis. It occurs in
some
lower forms of vertebrate life, in fact the most sophisticated species I
can
remember hearing about it occurring in (yeesh! it's been a long time since
I took embryology) is turkeys. I seem to remember something about the offsprin
g
always being female.
--- PPoint 1.65
* Origin: Point Of No Return Fayetteville, NC (1:3634/2.5)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:43:07
--------
EID:702f 1b8a4560
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11F9691B
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 384d65af
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did David Bloomberg really say something to Steve Quarrella, on 08 Dec 93?
DB> That IS her theory: That the government is engaged in
DB> a secret war against the people, and blah blah blah
And she totally ignores the overt actions. :)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:29:00
--------
EID:309b 1b8ab3a0
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG ac1635cd
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> SQ> Like I've been saying in HOLYSMOKE, I really would like to
> SQ> see his explanation of Biblical English, considering that
> SQ> the world's Germanic scholars currently hold nothing like
> SQ> it in their archives.
> Germanic? (Can you expand on that one please?)
English is one of the germanic languages.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:33:00
--------
EID:41c2 1b8a5420
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d0896ac
On 12-04-93, Rick Moen @ 916/1008 actually wrote the following to Gary
Posner:
RM>> Here's my address to which the Randi/Geller Hotline messages are
RM>> being successfully addressed to me on the NetMail echo:
RM>>
RM>> Gary.Posner@p0.f33.n377.z1.FIDONET.ORG
RM>>
RM>> I don't know if the "p0" would also apply to you, but otherwise
RM>> your corresponding address would simply substitute "f2112" and "n243
RM>> for my own "f" and "n" numbers.
RM>
RM>Gary, for the record, the "p0" is superflous for both you and David,
RM>since it is assumed by default. The default assumption is correct
RM>in both cases, since neither of you runs a "point" system (p for point
RM>
Theoretically, the "p0" is not required. However, I have had problems with
e-mail bouncing addressed to Fidonet addresses without it. It doesn't hurt
to leave it in, so I'd advise keeping it.
RM>If by "CSICOP list" you are referring to the Internet "Skeptic" list
RM>run by Taner Edis at Johns Hopkins University, please let me know,
RM>and I'll help you work out how to successfully subscribe. To my
RM>knowledge, CSICOP has no e-mail mailing list as such, just a read-only
RM>display area on the Cleveland Freenet, maintained by Jim Kutz of South
RM>Shore Skeptics on a volunteer basis.
RM>
The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently started
up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't have the
level of traffic the "Skeptic" list has.
I thought your address was in the distribution list for the messages from
the CSICOP list. I must have been mistaken. I'll drop you an Internet
e-mail with Barry's address so you can get added.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:58:02
--------
EID:e803 1b8a5740
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d089c8a
On 12-08-93, David Bloomberg actually wrote the following to Rick Moen @
916/1008:
[...]
DB>Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out
DB>only a few things so far (I think they were a copy of the
DB>list itself, a notice from Anson about having newsletters
DB>FTPable, and a few other minor things), but it's there.
DB>
When did you see that notice?
I haven't received anything from the CSICOP list recently, even though I
sent Barry the FTP notice earlier this week.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Don Kemerling
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:29:37
--------
EID:df16 1b8a43a0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27dd1b
> From the introduction to THE NEW SKEPTICISM: Inquiry and Reliable
> Knowledge, by philosopher Paul Kurtz, executive editor of SKEPTICAL
> INQUIRER MAGAZINE:
Actually, no. Kurtz is not executive editor. He's chairman of the
committee that publishes _Skeptical Inquirer_.
> ŚÄÄÄ
> ³ "Skepticism, like all things, is good if used in moderation. It
> ³is essential for the healthy mind; but if taken to excess, it can
> lead ³to overweening doubt. Skepticism, if properly understood, is
> not a ³metaphysical picture of the unkowability of "ultimate reality";
> it does ³not lead to an inevitable epistemological impasse; it need
> not ³culminate in existential despair or nihilism. Rather it should
> be ³considered as an essential methodological rule guiding us to
> examine ³critically all claims to knowledge and affirmation of value.
> Without ³it, we are apt to slip into complacent self-deception and
> dogmatism; ³with it, if prudently used, we can effectively advance the
> frontiers of ³inquiry and knowledge, and also apply it to practical
> life, ethics, and ³politics.
> ³ Briefly stated, a skeptic is one who is willing to question any
> ³claim to truth, asking for clarity in definition, consistency in
> logic, ³and adequacy of evidence. The use of skepticism is thus an
> essential ³part of objective scientific inquiry and the search for
> reliable ³knowledge."
> ĄÄÄÄ
> I'll go along with Mr. Kurtz. I highly recommend the book,
> published by Prometheus Books.
Kurtz should know better than to claim that "skepticism" as used in
_Skeptical Inquirer_ is construed to be "an essential methodological
rules guiding us to examine critically all claims to knowledge and
affirmation of value". In fact, he _does_ know better. Skeptics
have _never_ used the term in that sense. Only Kurtz in his perverse
desire to co-mingle his two interests is irresponsible enough to make
such a claim. I will specifically and emphatically disavow it.
I will particularly, specifically, disavow the statement about practical
life, ethics, and politics. Skeptics have nothing at all to do with
these subjects. Skepticism means critical inquiry into whether testable
claims on the fringes of science have merit. The _Skeptical Inquirer_
has always used the term to mean that, and so has every one of the
dozens of other skeptics' periodicals of my acquaintance. Not a one
foolishly squanders its credibility making pronouncements about ethics
and politics, not to mention "practical life" (whatever that is). Kurtz
speaks solely for himself, and not even for his own skeptics'
organisation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:35:16
--------
EID:e9c4 1b8a4460
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27de1b
> The lotto is a much worse bet than almost any other gamble but it
> is the only gamble that can completely change your life if you
> win which is what draws people to it.
So, it feeds the "do nothing productive, get rich quick" loser
mentality. This is bad, not good (in my view, as a matter of personal
morals). However, it is incorrect to state that this is the only way
to suddenly become rich. It's true that its more accessible than the
other ways, but that's because its promoted as an easy way to fleece
the unwary. The object of the offerers is not to make people rich, but
rather to take huge sums of money from them. That's why they make it
easy to play.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:38:48
--------
EID:e9c4 1b8a44c0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27df1b
> Agreed. And as I pointed out before, going to the track requires an
> investment of $ and time (parking, admission, gas, duration of race)
> that has to be recouped before winnings count. As you say, if you
> consider it as entertainment, however...
Racetrack gambling doesn't require visiting a racetrack. There will
certainly be off-premises gambling in your area, though you may not
know of it.
Besides, with only a modest stake, you can also simply call a broker
and take a flyer on options or futures. That's a fairly easy way to
lose your shirt or get rich. Concentration of risk in that area is
readily available. It's just not as mindless an activity as buying
lottery tickets.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Don Kemerling
Sub: Re: Ark hoax continues
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:45:11
--------
EID:6559 1b8a45a0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e01b
> RM>Actually, that may be the one most provably true allegation in the
> RM>entire piece. Sun very likely is fundamentally interested in
> following RM>Willie Sutton's Law ("Go where the money is"). It's
> really quite RM>plausible that they have no ideological commitment to
> creationism. RM>It would, after all, be against their interests to
> have one.
>
> I expect that these people think that their interest lies in
> heaven, but of course there is lucrative reward for those who pander
> to believers right here on Earth. Prime time TV pays very well.
Well, Don, it's really not fundamentally of interest what Sun's motives
are for making films in the first place, so I regret that my earlier
comment has set the conversation down this path. As noted in my
earlier response about Kurtz and his misbegotten latest attempt to
make skeptics be what they are not, skeptics are not ideologues.
We are not about religion, politics, or leading a moral life.
Therefore, we are also not about making sure that people do things
for the right reasons. We are simply about critical inquiry into
testable claims at the fringes of science.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:48:10
--------
EID:640a 1b8a4600
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e11b
> FR> That's not quite correct. Evolution is a fact not subject to
> belief FR> or disbelief. It's not even subject to debate. The
> theory of FR> evolution is subject to debate, however. The mode and
> tempo, that is.
>
> Your opinion and one I respect....but that's all it is.
> If it _is_ a _fact_, please take a moment and provide a couple of
> specific references by eminent current researchers in the field
> stating same.
This has already been provided to you in the text of the FAQ posting.
You could also consult any reputable biology textbook, such as Keaton
or Curtis.
> FR> Creationists seem incapable of recognizing the difference between
> fact FR> and the theory designed to describe same fact.
>
> I surely hope that last line was not directed towards _me_. If
> so, please directly quote where I stated creationist opinions (unless
> you mean that when I said evolution was a theory, that equaled
> "creationist."
It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:18:00
--------
EID:d105 1b8a5240
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e21b
JH> They'd need a big "BUNCH" of friends.
JH> Assumeing it's the same (01 to 50) six number game I'm familiar with,
> the chances of getting all six numbers is:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 (or 11,441,304,000 or a REAL BIG BUNCH)
WRONG! Those are the odds against picking all the numbers AND in the
correct order as well. The lotto may be a bad bet but come on, it isn't
THAT bad. 11 billion?? Everyone on the face of planet Earth would have
to play to even have a winner about every 2nd or 3rd draw. The prizes
would be spectacular, though. If you won, you might even be able to
buy a stealth bomber or two. :-)
Oh well, I guess the advent of the calculator has killed off the old
"common sense" double-check of calculation results.
Since you don't have to match the order, the odds in your game are
(6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) * (2/46) * (1/45) = 1/15,890,700
JH> Even if you'er only interested in matching four numbers, you still
get:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 or 5,527,200
JH> Which is still a sizable 'BUNCH'.
Actually, its:
(6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) = 1/15,353
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * Got a life, gotta go...
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Japanese Magnetic circle
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:00
--------
EID:b72a 1b86a4e0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e31b
On 12-04-93 JON STRAYER wrote to DONALD WILTON @ 916/10...
JS> On Nov 29 10:27, Donald Wilton @ 916/1008 of 8:916/1008 wrote:
JS>
JS> DW@9> I would like to know what if any, research has taken
JS> DW@9> place to credit or discredit the japanese scientist who
JS> DW@9> claimed that the crop circles could have been formed by
JS> DW@9> ball lightning. I remember that he showed that ball
JS> DW@9> lightning, when artificially generated, created patterns
JS> DW@9> in iron filings that were very similar to those that
JS> DW@9> appear in crop circles.
JS>
JS> How much research would it take to show that there are darn few iron
JS> filings in wheat? :-)
Sure,
What I meant was that if the same types of patterns appear during a normal
occurrence, ball lightning or other, then there may be other circumstances
that could cause the crop circles, than guys with wire and boards. I admit
that some of the crop circles are really crudely made, and obviously made
by
guys with boards and wires.
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for your point of view!
"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Tilting At creationist
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:20:00
--------
EID:3c8c 1b86aa80
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e41b
On 12-04-93 SYSOP wrote to CHARLIE WILSON...
S > Good leads on additional information can be gotten from the National
S > Center for Science Education, P.O. Box 9477, Berkeley, CA 94709,
S > tel. #510-526-1674.
What about the abundant FAQ sheets no doubt available on the Skeptic's Board,
that deal with this and similar topics? }:>
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for theocracy! :) :) :)
:) :)
"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: News From james randi
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:24:00
--------
EID:58b4 1b86ab00
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e51b
On 12-04-93 SYSOP wrote to GARY POSNER...
S > If by "CSICOP list" you are referring to the Internet "Skeptic" list
S > run by Taner Edis at Johns Hopkins University, please let me know,
S > and I'll help you work out how to successfully subscribe. To my
S > knowledge, CSICOP has no e-mail mailing list as such, just a read-only
S > display area on the Cleveland Freenet, maintained by Jim Kutz of South
S > Shore Skeptics on a volunteer basis.
In either case, I'd be interested in the details on how to apply. I might
be
interested in getting an account on the cleveland Freenet, and cross posting
useful stuff. I have never heard of the other.
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for destruction of human
righ
ts!"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Steve Crawford
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:26:50
--------
EID:a185 1b8ab340
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e61b
> WRONG! Those are the odds against picking all the numbers AND in the
> correct order as well. The lotto may be a bad bet but come on, it
> isn't THAT bad. 11 billion?? Everyone on the face of planet Earth
> would have to play to even have a winner about every 2nd or 3rd draw.
> The prizes would be spectacular, though. If you won, you might even
> be able to buy a stealth bomber or two. :-)
Second prize: a Bradley Fighting Vehicle
Third prize: TWO Bradley Fighting Vehicles!
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Donald Wilton
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:28:03
--------
EID:dcb2 1b8ab380
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e71b
> S > Good leads on additional information can be gotten from the
> National S > Center for Science Education, P.O. Box 9477, Berkeley,
> CA 94709, S > tel. #510-526-1674.
>
> What about the abundant FAQ sheets no doubt available on the Skeptic's
> Board, that deal with this and similar topics? }:>
A lot of them provided by a fellow named Donald Wilton, if memory
serves! ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Donald Wilton
Sub: Re: News from james randi
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:36:00
--------
EID:27cb 1b8ab480
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e81b
> In either case, I'd be interested in the details on how to apply. I
> might be interested in getting an account on the cleveland Freenet,
> and cross posting useful stuff. I have never heard of the other.
Anson Kennedy sent me e-mail just today telling me that, yes, there
is some sort of CSICOP "mailing list", apparently run out of the
Cleveland Freenet. I have that at work, including the Internet
address to inquire to.
Also at work is information on the Internet "Skeptic" mailing list.
This is a genuine BITNET-type mailing list run by a listserv program,
providing group e-mail discussion among all the subscribers, via
Internet e-mail mechanisms. It's actually the successor to a popular
list on BITNET, run out of the YORKVM1 machine at York U., Ontario,
by Prof. Norm Gall. When that list suddenly went defunct, Taner Edis,
an active list particant and physics graduate student at Johns Hopkins,
stepped in to set up the current list as a replacement.
Sorry I can't provide specific Internet addresses at the moment. Maybe
someone else will speak up.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Geoff C. Marshall
Sub: pseudo-science
Date: 11 Dec 93 11:12:28
--------
EID:f7c7 1b8b5980
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d09ac26
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Geoff:
In a msg of , Geoff C. Marshall writes to Horst
Somm
er:
GCM> Thought Experiment.
GCM> It is 1920. Propose "Nuclear Radiation". Propose "Quantum Tunnelling"
GCM> What would the reaction be ? Somewhat similar to yours, perhaps ?
GCM> Don't assume we know it all. Don't assume that we know all the forces
GCM> there are to be known.
So what do you propose? Believe everything?
1) Many fantastic things in past have been things that were disbelieved.
2) Some fantastic things have come true.
So what's the conclusion? Believe all fantastic things? No? Some fanta
stic things? Which ones? How do you determine which ones to believe? Via
sci
entific rigour, or by how "neat" it sounds?
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:30:38
--------
EID:301e 1b89b3c0
> That IS her theory: That the government is engaged in a secret war
> against the people, and blah blah blah :-)
whaddaya mean 'secret'? [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Make me believe it! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: LOTTO
Date: 12 Dec 93 03:55:11
--------
EID:8031 1b8c1ee0
DM> Funny how assumptions can make us look silly. WHy would you think
DM> they would only buy one ticket each?
Nah, my downfalling is a nasty habit of getting combinations mixed
up with permutations. I needed to devide the whole mess by factoral
six.
DM> We play 6/49, not 6/50, and the odds of getting the jackpot are just
DM> under 14 million to one against.
1:13,983,816
Which is still a "bunch".
You (or your investement pool) have to buy that many tickets if
you want to corner the market to insure a "win".
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Parthenogenesis
Date: 12 Dec 93 14:06:50
--------
EID:ad59 1b8c70c0
KP> Which is substantially different than the idea of the
KP> egg, alone, starting to divide by itself. Do you have any
KP> knowledge of anything along that line?
The development of eggs without fertilization is known as
parthenogenesis.
Very common in rotifers and plant lice.
Honneybees and related species do it to a limited extent. The male
drones are produced exclusively from unfertilized eggs.
Artificial parthenogenesis has been induced by subjecting eggs to
various chemical and mechanical stimuli. The eggs of marine
invertibrates, such as sea urchins, have been especially favorable
subjects, but Loeb, in one of the most famous experiments, produced
several frogs from unfertilied eggs by the mechanical stimulus of
pricking (no pun intended) the egg with a needle.
(Source: Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia)
Reproduction is far from a fool-proof process (fools are actually
pretty good at it). If all offspring were 'true' to thier genetic
parents, there would be no mutation or evolution. Even in humans a
chromosonal surplus or defecit occurs in about 1 in every 10,000
births.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 11:43:00
--------
EID:8862 1b8c5d60
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG ad0b96c0
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> See you there as soon as I've configured everything
> accordingly!
> (Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a
> pseudonym?)
What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now, taking advantage
o
f my right to use a name of my own choosing.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Mann
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 11 Dec 93 22:22:38
--------
EID:7098 1b8bb2c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d0a484e
Salue, David!
Jovis dies December 09 1993, Dixit David Mann ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ> LE>> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
SQ> LE>> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ>> I could say something here, but won't.
DM> Aw! Come on! I double-dog-dare you!
There's a serious hum eminating from Salt Lake City. :)
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Terry Goodman
To: Dominic Tremblay
Sub: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 12 Dec 93 01:22:00
--------
EID:0b20 1b8c0ac0
TG> Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
DT> Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I
> want to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am
> really wondering if media consultants is really a psychologist...
> Are there some that are charlatan...
Media consultants have expertise in advertising, promotion, sociology,
marketing, statistics, broadcasting, psychology, etc., etc. It's a
multi-disciplinary field combining various arts, sciences, theories,
superstitions, and magic. Most professional media consultants have
enough knowledge, skill, and savy to give good and worthwhile advice,
but the the theories they utilize often have weak scientific
foundations, so they generally sound more knowledgeable than they
actually are -- sort of like economists .
Come to think of it, the skills of a charlatan are very much the sort
of skills a media consultant tries to impart to his or her clients, so
if a media consultant *IS* a charlatan, he or she is probably a fairly
good media consultant, too.
--Terry
--- TMail v1.31.5
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--------
From: Beverlee Broadlick
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Skeptic
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:54:46
--------
EID:67f6 1b853ec0
MSGID: 1:203/726.0 2d020446
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org be0068ff
Dan, Thank you for your well-thought out reply. It was to me a serious
questi
on and your reply was excellent. It is so difficult to address a problem/ques
tion with an open mind, Weaccess everything with our built in experiences
and
prejudices. It is difficult not to "tilt" the conclusion or resolution
of a
"problem" to a preconceived and possibly dearly held belief...Thank You
for yo
ur reply. I am going to mull over the points you expressed. Best wishes....B
everlee
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Vortex - Sacramento, CA. (916) 332-7141 (1:203/726)
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From: Beverlee Broadlick
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 05 Dec 93 08:05:06
--------
EID:eed7 1b8540a0
MSGID: 1:203/726.0 2d0206b2
REPLY: 1:343/124.0 2cfc1f86
hank You Tad for taking the time to anwer. It was a serious question (in
my m
ind). What Tad then, is an incredible claim? Is it something which a person
can not believe because of his "Frame of Reference"? Many scientists, for
ins
tance, have made incredible claims, that later were substaniated. In my
lifet
ime, it would have been incredible to claim thatman might one day journey
to t
he moon. When I was a child gfew would have believed that we would spend
hour
s looking at talking heads in a box. On the other hand they did believe
Lydia
Pinkham would cure everything!. Thank you Tad....Best wishes Beverlee
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Vortex - Sacramento, CA. (916) 332-7141 (1:203/726)
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From: David Macdonald
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Jon Strayer
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:26:21
--------
EID:4112 1b888340
MSGID: 1:232/310 10011dee
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Demon Barney
Jon Strayer,
yes, the Barney message got out--and I am still laughing.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Jane Harris
Sub: Re: earlier message
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:47:38
--------
EID:cfc5 1b8965e0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FAF3EA
REPLY: 1:3642/703 86030B91
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Jane Harris really say something to All, on 06 Dec 93?
JH> This is in reference to the message about feamle eggs
JH> dividing and producing non-viable offspring. I think
JH> this occurs in amphibians, but I remember that in the
JH> late 80's, a reseacher (of course I can't remember
JH> the name !@#$ it) at Vanderbilt in Nashville used
JH> the nucleus of on mouse egg cell as the "sperm"
JH> when injected into another mouse egg, in
Which is substantially different than the idea of the egg, alone, startin
g to divide by itself. Do you have any knowledge of anything along that
line?
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Tom Bomhower
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:50:54
--------
EID:d489 1b896640
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FAF4AE
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org c39287d3
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Tom Bomhower really say something to Kerry Penny, on 07 Dec 93?
TB> An estimate that I have seen has one in a hundred
TB> thousand live births
TB> being (necessarily female) issue of their mothers'
TB> eggs only. Some of
But what is the source? Let's say I have a strong feeling that it can't
happen that way, but I could be wrong as that isn't my area of expertise.
TB> This leaves space aliens as the remaining explanation
TB> for all those four year old boys who look like clones
TB> of their thirty year old fathers.
Yeah. :)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Michael Shea
To: Rick Moen
Sub: RE: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING
Date: 09 Dec 93 10:59:08
--------
EID:ebc0 1b895760
For the latest in backwards speech technologies... Check out Tools For
Exploration and their backwards tape recorder.
Tools For Exploration
4460 Redwood Highway Suite 2
San Rafael CA 94903
(800) 456-9887
--- TMail v1.31.4
* Origin: Hey, please don't pick up that ph{{{~|z{|{{{ (1:3628/11)
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--------
From: David Mann
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:32:33
--------
EID:978a 1b89a400
SQ> LE> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
SQ> sounds
SQ> LE> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ>
SQ> I could say something here, but won't.
Aw! Come on! I double-dog-dare you!
SQ> Steve (Former Utahn)
Bear (former S. Califian)
... Well I'M not superstitious, thank God...
--- PPoint 1.70
* Origin: Bear's Cozy Den: Ladies ALWAYS Welcome! (1:105/95.666)
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--------
From: Fred Hatfield
To: Dominic Tremblay
Sub: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 11 Dec 93 03:51:14
--------
EID:5764 1b8b1e67
In a message of <09 Dec 93 13:29:01>, Dominic Tremblay (1:249/132) writes:
DT>tg Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
DT>
DT>Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I want
DT>to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am really
DT>wondering if a media consultants is really a psychologist... Are there
DT>some that are charlatan...
I'm pretty sure that Ed Rollins is looking for employment right now...
Fred Hatfield K8VDU @ N5UXT.LA.USA ..Basin Street Jazz from {TheBigEasy}..
--- QM v1.00
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--------
From: Dan Mckinnon
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: LOTTO
Date: 10 Dec 93 16:39:11
--------
EID:37f4 1b8a84e0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org c51206ca
JH> DM> Some people have figured that when the lotto is up to, say, $80
JH> DM> million they should get a bunch of friends together and buy all
JH> DM> of the combinations so they would be assured a win.
JH> They'd need a big "BUNCH" of friends.
JH> Assumeing it's the same (01 to 50) six number game I'm familiar with,
JH> the chances of getting all six numbers is:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 (or 11,441,304,000 or a REAL BIG BUNCH)
JH> Even if you'er only interested in matching four numbers, you still
get:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 or 5,527,200
JH> Which is still a sizable 'BUNCH'.
Funny how assumptions can make us look silly. WHy would you think
they would only buy one ticket each?
It would be an investment pool, with the return based on what
percentage of the tickets you had bought.
And your math is suspect, too. DO you realize you have the chance of
winning at 11 BILLION to one against!? _Nobody_ is likely to ever win at
that rate! But if somebody finally won it, it would probably be
humungous!!!
We play 6/49, not 6/50, and the odds of getting the jackpot are just
under 14 million to one against.
Dan
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * You can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their chests!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Rick Moen
Sub: TILTING AT CREATIONIS
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:20:00
--------
EID:787a 1b88ba80
-=> Quoting Rick Moen to Bruce Baugh <=-
> I particularly enjoy Robert Anton
> Wilson's little piece about the many categories there are besides
> unqualified true or false.
RM> It's indeed a very fun piece, and Wilson himself is quite a roar in
RM> person. However, in its zeal to moon the scientific establishment,
RM> it takes fire at a non-existent target. Wilson does a great deal of
RM> that, setting up straw men and then shooting them down -- and implying
RM> that people he resents are just like those straw men, without the
RM> troublesome need to actually produce evidence that this is so.
Perhaps he's a programmer with a degree in Fuzzy Logic, you know,
not quite false but not quite true. Like 40% false and 60% true
is more true than false but not true enough to be really true? ;-)
I've picked up my latest copy of NEXUS here in Oz. Wilson adds his
name to another mag Melbourne called New Dawn, where he says:
'Thank you for an excellent journal' in their ad.
The Nexus mag is a hoot. Where does Wilson hang out?
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 17+Gigs & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Dominic Tremblay
To: All
Sub: E.T. and Modem
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:01:04
--------
EID:1716 1b8aa820
PID: RA 2
MSGID: 1:249/132 52a78118
* Message originally:
From: Jean Richard
To : Michele Maheux
Date: 12-07-93
Area: "FidoNet - FRANCAIS"
* Forwarded by Dominic Tremblay from 1:249/132
On dirait qu'il y a des extra-terrestres qui essaient d'entrer
en communication avec mon ordinateur.
Pour au moins la troisieme fois, j'ai entendu un rapide petit
arpege de cinq ou six notes, venant du modem, et au volume plutot faible.
Cela se passe quand mon modem est ouvert, mais qu'il n'est pas en
communication.
Je trouve ca mysterieux.
* Translation by Dominic Tremblay from Mr. Mystery BBS (1:249/132)
Some extra-terrestrials seem to try to enter in communication with my computer
.
For at least the third time, I have heard a small arpeggio of 5 to 6 notes
com
ming from the Modem, with a really low volume.
This happens when my Modem is open and not in communication.
I think that it is really mysterious.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Mr. Mystery BBS: The only BBS for magicians in Canada (1:249/132)
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--------
From: Jay Hans
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 09 Dec 93 10:30:00
--------
EID:9b3b 1b8953c0
MSGID: 1:320/124@fidonet.org 7470fe75
TN> Several years ago (12 or so), I participated in a class project that
TN> looked at the issue of subliminal advertising. It was extremely
TN> difficult at the time to find any credible evidence as to its
TN> effectiveness.
TN> Lots and lots of rumors; especially with respect to movie theatre
TN> concession stands, but no hard facts.
SZ> Subliminals must be hard to get by most people. Considering
SZ> persistance of vision at 1/10th sec, plus, even a single frame 1/24th
SZ> or video half-frame 1/50th (or 1/30 and 1/60 for US viewers), you can
SZ> still see information clearly.
Face it, there is no objective data that indicates that subliminal
messages work. In fact, the guy who started the whole thing as an advertising
exec (figures!) in the late 1950's has admitted he made the whole thing
up
AND masked it in pseudo-psychological terminology. Can anyone
point to ANY LITERATURE in ANY reputable journal which shows that "subliminal"
cues affects any behavior ?
Since I'm on a roll here, can anyone point to any references in any
reputable academic journal that shows that polygraph testing works ?
To me, both these areas represent "urban legend" type areas.
... E=MC(2) {-/+ 1 dB}
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- QScan v1.02b
* Origin: CIN BBS * 1.2 Gigs/6 CD-ROMS * 203-445-0607 * Groton CT (1:320/124)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: the Vollmer exorcism
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:46:42
--------
EID:35b3 1b8b8dc0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a07e0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 98151eea
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Marian Starwatche
r:
FR> I know that actual incidents of schizophrenia is rather rare.
Depends on what you mean by "rather rare". I suspect, however, in the se
nse that you're using it, that you're incorrect.
FR> Here in the
FR> United States we seem to have a problem with multiple personality disorde
rs
FR> rather than pathological bifurcation of personality.
Perhaps it was multiple personality disorder you were thinking of? That
is most certainly quite rare.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Saga of the Lucky Dollar
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:52:08
--------
EID:41e8 1b8b8e80
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a08e8
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 988ad744
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Jackson Harding:
FR> If anyone touches my Diet Coke there _will_ be civil war. Though there's
FR> no doubt it can be addictive, I, at least, hope that it's merely
FR> psychological. And it keeps me filled during the day which helps keep
me
at
FR> 140 pounds.
Nothing wrong with weighing 140 -- or a little less :)
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: John informs us about skeptics
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:55:48
--------
EID:bc12 1b8b8ee0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a0a7a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 990b248e
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to All:
CJH>> Define a honest skeptic.
jg>> One who has the balls to face the implications of his own world view.
jg>> Ie. meaninglessness, despair, nothingness, a life in which there is
jg>> no intrinsic difference between loving your children and screwing
jg>> them, no difference between Torquemada watching his victims die
jg>> screaming and Mother Theresa showing mercy to the dying in Calcutta,
jg>> no difference between Hitler's final solution and Bob Geldof's
jg>> crusade to save children in Africa.
Sounds like some existentialism a friend of mine has been reading recentl
y. Where's the skepticism?
jg>> No difference because there is
jg>> no moral superiority nor inferiority in any of these acts b/c there
is
jg>> NO rulemaker and thus no rules.
Oh no! The bitter, "if there's no god, then all is moral anarchy!"
jg>> inviolable fact. In short, an honest skeptic is someone who recognizes
jg>> that Nietzche was right,
Aside from the fact that it's NietzSche, I'm not surprised that this name
was invoked. He's a popular fellow to misunderstand.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 15:07:08
--------
EID:9c6d 1b8c78e0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38867b13
In a msg to Jon Strayer on , Charlie Wilson of 1:209/226 writes:
JS> There is both the fact of evolution and the theories that seek to
JS> explain it. Many creationsist are confused by this.
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
What do you have trouble understanding?
Gravity is a fact, and there are seveal theories to explain it.
Do you doubt gravity?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Linda Elston @ 933/4
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 12 Dec 93 18:02:50
--------
EID:8c4a 1b8c9040
MSGID: 8:933/4.0 2d0ba31a
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d06426a
LE> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely
LE> audible humming sounds
LE> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ> I could say something here, but won't.
SQ> Steve (Former Utahn)
It'd probably depend on WHAT you said. >G<
I heard someone mention something similar happened in Georgia or some southern
state and the findings had to do with a shifting of the plates, which made
se
nse. The only thing I question, is around the Taos area and Utah I think
lies
the general area of the Continental Divide, but I'm not sure what would
be aro
und Georgia. (Of course, I'm no geologist either. >G<)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
# Origin: The People's Advocate & Post : 405.391.6604 (8:933/4)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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PATH: 933/4 1 8/8 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 14 Dec 93 00:19:47
--------
EID:e490 1b8e0260
DB> Gravity is a fact, and there are seveal theories to explain it.
DB> Do you doubt gravity?
Excelent analogy! (I'm adding it to my 'keepers'.)
And when you get to super-dense objects like neutron stars and black
holes, you find that no one theory covers all the phenomenon
adequately.
"Missing links"... no doubt.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 13 Dec 93 06:59:30
--------
EID:20fe 1b8d3760
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 388f33d9
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d0896ac
In a msg to Rick Moen @ 916/1008 on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writes:
AK> The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently started
AK> up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't have
Can you send me a copy of the mailing list? When Barry originally sent
it out
, my address was still wrong, and he hasn't re-sent it.
Thanks.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 13 Dec 93 07:00:24
--------
EID:20fe 1b8d3800
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 388f357b
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d089c8a
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writ
es:
DB>Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out
DB>only a few things so far (I think they were a copy of the
DB>list itself, a notice from Anson about having newsletters
DB>FTPable, and a few other minor things), but it's there.
DB>
AK> When did you see that notice?
I didn't. I was going on what Barry told me.
(Remember, I haven't seen ANYTHING from the list yet. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 12 Dec 93 14:27:00
--------
EID:f8b0 1b8c7360
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d0b7084
On 12-10-93, J.j. Hitt actually wrote the following about Re: Your daily
chuckle to Steve Quarrella:
JH> The KJV translators and William Shakespere were contemporaries.
JH> Shakespere's plays give us a reasonably large sampling of how people
JH> actually spoke and wrote durring the 16th/17th centuries.
This is correct. They all spoke in iambic pentameter and were excellent
rhymers.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Home BBS of The Georgia Skeptics (1:133/208)
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--------
From: Eric Greene
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 12:18:18
--------
EID:deba 1b8c6240
MSGID: 1:133/208.1 2d0b532d
Hiya Charlie -
09 Dec 93, Charlie Wilson writes to Jon Strayer:
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
CW> Charlie
Of course. Gravity is a fact, yet theories are needed to explain it. Light
i
s a fact, yet quantum theory is a way of explaining it. The bending of
light
by mass is a fact, and the Theory of Relativity is offered as an explanation.
This is how science works, ya know!
Eric
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: Astronomical Society BBS - (404)321-5904 (1:133/208.1)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: the Vollmer exorcism
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:00:51
--------
EID:4ef8 1b909819
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe09
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d0a07e0
PID: FM 2.02
taw> G'day Fredric:
Hay! Greetings.
FR> I know that actual incidents of schizophrenia is rather rare.
taw> Depends on what you mean by "rather rare". I suspect, however,
taw> in the sense that you're using it, that you're incorrect.
How would _I_ know? I'm a _programmer_, not a medical doctor!
Really, it wouldn't surprise me if I'm totally wrong. There's always a
first!
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: John informs us about skeptics
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:40:48
--------
EID:56ae 1b909d18
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0a
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d0a0a7a
PID: FM 2.02
CJH>> Define a honest skeptic.
jg>> One who has the balls to face the implications of his own world view.
jg>> Ie. meaninglessness, despair, nothingness, a life in which there is
jg>> no intrinsic difference between loving your children and screwing
jg>> them...
Charming, loving, person, isn't he?
taw> Sounds like some existentialism a friend of mine has
taw> been reading recently. Where's the skepticism?
John Gilchrists' rather lengthy tirade had nothing to do with any philosophy
or, really, anything rational whatsoever. Though he holds no clues as to
what
organized skepticism is about, he equates it, apparently, with ideologies
whi
ch embrace violence and destruction, rape and pillage. The genesis of this
oc
cult belief is, of course, his rather horrific dismemberment at the bloody
han
ds of a gang of atheists who demanded that he either put up or shut up after
h
e made a bevy of unusual and untestable claims which included said atheists.
So for a year his entrails have followed him around wherever he's gone and
he
points at them to anyone who will pity his sad dissassemblement claiming
that
skepticism has done this to him. He read about organized skeptics prior
to th
e Hume classification and claimed that all skeptics met his ideological
pictur
e of his own construction in his own bemuddled mind.
These wounds have been allowed to become infected and they've festered for
ove
r a year now. Anyone who expresses disbelief at his deities is responsable
fo
r all the worlds woes. Humanity killed his deities and so now he thinks
that
humanity must destroy itself -- because it must.
John Gillchrist according to Fred -- the brief and unauthorized version.
jg>> No difference because there is no moral superiority nor
jg> inferiority in any of these acts b/c there is NO rulemaker
jg> and thus no rules.
taw> Oh no! The bitter, "if there's no god, then all is moral anarchy!"
The same song and dance, coupled with the old side-step that he performed
for
us a year ago -- include _everyone_ in his bizzare complaint about the woes
of
the world and then claim that we know we're to blame but simply don't care
as
we're controlled by his bad deity.
It's very annoying that I'm away from the archives. I could network mail
both
yourself and Rick copies of what transpired to foment these ideas about
skept
ics from the facets that he's allowed others to see.
No evidence, of course. Nothing testable of course. Yet he includes all
of h
umanity in his ignorance and superstitious dred. When asked about the godless
nations on this planet or those nations with hold numbers of believers in
dei
ties other than his and the response was typical: utter silence as yet another
wound goes left untreated.
jg>> inviolable fact. In short, an honest skeptic is
jg>> someone who recognizes that Nietzche was right,
taw> Aside from the fact that it's NietzSche, I'm not surprised that
taw> this name was invoked. He's a popular fellow to misunderstand.
I've never read him yet I've read Kant and Spinoza so I suppose Nietzsche
shou
ld be. Nietzsche _was_ quite correct. Yet I wonder if he failed to include
a
ll of the deities which have come before the ones which were his contemporarie
s among his domestic populace.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:55:40
--------
EID:bd2e 1b909ef4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0b
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 38867b13
PID: FM 2.02
JS> There is both the fact of evolution and the theories that seek
JS> to explain it. Many creationsist are confused by this.
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories
CW> are required to explain it. Hmmmmm...
db> What do you have trouble understanding?
One wonders if he has an alternate explanation for the life on this planet.
Speaking of mythologies.
I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that The People
lived
on three other planets prior to coming here in the form of First Man and
Firs
t Woman (in that order.) They brought with them all the animals and plants
th
at were on the third planet and came to the "center" of the Earth.
It's rather like the classical Christian mythologies of "Adam and Eve" except
that they bring the animals (two by two) and plants with them on some kind
of
a
boat when they arive. The global-flood myth comes later as an attempt of
Rive
r
Brother trying to drown Coyote Trickster because he stole River Brothers'
baby.
It's just interesting reading. Rather than the seven-day creation mythologies
, this one simply has them coming from another planet and leaves the origins
u
nexplained rather than invoke deity to explain it.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 16 Dec 93 20:04:38
--------
EID:6b8d 1b90a093
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0c
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d0b7084
PID: FM 2.02
JH> The KJV translators and William Shakespere were contemporaries.
JH> Shakespere's plays give us a reasonably large sampling of how people
JH> actually spoke and wrote durring the 16th/17th centuries.
ak> This is correct. They all spoke in iambic
ak> pentameter and were excellent rhymers.
I am reminded of "Moonlighting" when they performed "The Tameing of the
Shrew"
(pardon my horrific spelling!) and did such a wonderful job of it. At the
en
d the cast declaired their honest hatred for iambic pentameter.
Oh: Most of it was, I should say. Bruce broke into song at the wedding
of the
tied-up and gagged Shrew. Such fun! "I asked my doctor; can you
te
ll me please? What is ailling me?" (Can you hear me say yeah, yeah, yeah,
ye
ah, yeah) "What I really need?"
I hope William S. wouldn't mind so very much. when asked if he takes this
man
to be her lawfully wedded husband, she struggled and screamed behind her
gag
and Bruce utters in falsetto soto-voice, "I do!"
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Jim Dritsas
To: Linda Elston
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:09:11
--------
EID:4c50 1b8c8920
MSGID: 1:259/208@fidonet.org c6114ba5
Hello, Linda.
-> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
-> sounds emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in
-> Utah? I've heard it
This is one theory: Many people living in areas where Crop Circles are
discovered, frequently report HUMMING type noises emanating from the
vincinity in which a crop circle is discovered. These noises are mostly
heard at night, as far as I know. Maybe Taos and this town in Utah have
some crop fields nearby?
Regards, Jim
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff247/b]
* Origin: UFO Intelligence Network * Toronto ONT * 905-459-6259
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 13 Dec 93 05:14:00
--------
EID:47bc 1b8d29c0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Fredric Rice saying to Charlie Wilson:
>> Heh...Ricky, what you have engaged in is a childish game
FR> RM@9> ^^^^^
FR> RM@9> Folks, need I say more? ;->
cw> Why is it you're unable to be consise, accurate and
cw> perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
FR> Do you think that calling Rick "Ricky" was not childish? I'm just
FR> curious. No need to get upset.
Hey, I don't get upset over _words_. If you can, follow the thread
back to the beginning and you'll see where I _finally_ resorted to the
"Ricky" line. I replied in this manner _only_ after much baiting. 'way
back when, I had presented a _hypothetical_ scenario....and was quickly
attacked. I have no problem with you, Rick or anyone else. But I _do_
weary of horrid misquoting of my words followed by snide "replies" that
don't _even_ quote all of what I had to say. Hence, the eventual
"Ricky" comment. Since this all began, I've been called all sorts of
things....just because I refuse to follow the party line. It's like
this, "evolution is a fact, but all solid info is theory" stuff. It's
like psychology...if there ever was a _theory_....! :) But I don't
mind....hopefully I keep minds (especially my own) in a state of flux...
ready for new info and ready to integrate.
In one way it's amusing...I truly consider myself a skeptic (_not_
the Rick M. version but the dictionary version). I just refuse to lock
into this "show me an alien ashtray" idea of proof vs. the fact _too_
many people have experienced _something_ to dismiss the entire
phenomenon as "psycho-babble" version of proof. I suppose I would like
to see the skeptic echo reach a middle ground. At least _consider_
other possibilities....._prior_ to the bulk of the AMA saying "it's
impossible." (for ex) But perhaps that, in itself, exceeds the
parameters of the echo. Oh well! :)
Most Sincerely - Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: James Bryant
Sub: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISIN
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:12:00
--------
EID:f290 1b89b180
-=> Quoting James Bryant to Steve Quarrella <=-
JB> to...the babes are babe-a-licious GDR) Normally, the mags with the
JB> nasty gals use the words more often, like "sex" and "c*&t" and "f%$k"
JB> and things like that. You'd have to look for yourself. Normally, the
JB> letters are a little bit lighter than the surrounding skin, or are vein
JB> colored.
I must say I'm highly skeptical about this. After all, whats the mileage
in the hidden words that you point out? They're already in black and
white on the OPPOSING pages! (or didn't you look at the text? ).
Those words aren't selling product, and if one can assume it leads one
on to buy more mags, surely the picture accounts for 99.9% of the
inclination to buy! I see those words in my Macquarie dictionary, but
I don't get the urge to buy Playboy. I hear them on TV and Radio, and
see them in subtitled SBS programs [SBS is the Oz ethnic channel].
All of these occurrences haven't brought buying mags or videos to mind.
I think you might be a bit confused with botched airbrushing! These
things would be very easy to prove nowadays be scanning the image and
processing it for contrast changes. I can't see the point in what you
gave as evidences of subliminal advertising, in fact, as an example,
it misses the concept of advertising completely!
That's all from me on this subject - I've had my say ;-)
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 17+Gigs & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationists
Date: 17 Dec 93 11:03:12
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af896a6a
PID: FM 2.02
cw> Why is it you're unable to be consise, accurate and
cw> perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
FR> Do you think that calling Rick "Ricky" was not
FR> childish? I'm just curious. No need to get upset.
cw> Hey, I don't get upset over _words_. If you can, follow
cw> the thread back to the beginning and you'll see where I
cw> _finally_ resorted to the "Ricky" line.
I was merely curious whether you considered using "Ricky" to be mature.
I rea
lly am not interested in the motivation behind it.
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Hollandaise Sauce
Date: 17 Dec 93 16:00:00
--------
EID:623b 1b918000
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff355
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0a
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
So, any chance of your return from exile soon?
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 17 Dec 93 16:15:00
--------
EID:91fa 1b9181e0
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff356
REPLY: 8:916/1008 9027b2be
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> You're more distinctively identified by that handle than most
> people
> are, on-line, who use the names they write on their grocery
> cheques
It's a form of self description, dr pepper is the national drink of gamers
and
late night programmers.
> -- and it's not as if Big Brother can't figure out from the
> nodelist where to come pick you up.
Of course the nodelist shows the handle of the sysop. Otoh, i have given
out m
y address and voice number many times.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Sharon Allsup
Sub: Computer City
Date: 17 Dec 93 23:21:02
--------
EID:06ef 1b91baa0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d128dfc
REPLY: 1:109/361.1 2d1144a6
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
SA> There is a Computer City chain down here....might be the same company.
SA
>
SA> I've been in two of their local stores. Neither were impressive.
The MACers. Alien beings from a dying design. Their mission...the mainstream
computing society. Their purpose... to make it *their* world.
SA> Similar in concept to CompUSA/MicroCenter; prices were
SA> nothing exceptional. Somewhere in between going to a mall store and
the
SA> warehouses. The selection was very poor compared to the warehouses.
David Vincent has seen them. For him, it began one dark night at a lone
shopp
ing mall...looking for a new PC Superstore, that he never found.
SA> they had more MAC stuff than I've seen at any place not dealing in MAC.
Now...David knows that the MACers are here. That they have cloned into
PC for
m. Somehow he must convince a disbelieving IBM world, that the nightmare
has
begun...
--- FD 2.20a-mL/Fmail 0.96g+
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * (1:109/601)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Subliminal advertising
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:46:52
--------
EID:492f 1b8c8dc0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Charlie!
9 Dec 93, dixit Charlie Wilson ad Rick Moen @ 916/10
CW> Thanks, Rick, I'll look it up. To save me effort, if you
CW> have it around, can you provide ISBN#, paperback or
CW> hardbound, publisher, etc.? Second, is Poundstone
CW> considered a loon or a serious researcher?
Poundstone is quite serious, and is not what would be considered "a crank".
Here are the ISBNs. All but the third are available in softcover:
BIG SECRETS: 0688048307
BIGGER SECRETS: 0395453976
BIGGEST SECRETS: 0688115292
CW> _plainly_ heard in reverse. The only one I remember
CW> word-for-word was at the start of ELO's "Face The Music"
CW> LP. The dialogue says, "Music is reversible but time is
CW> not; turn back, turn back, turn back..."
From "Fire on High"
CW> Real satan stuff, eh??? :)
Nope.
... Practical politics consists of ignoring the facts.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:51:58
--------
EID:f695 1b8c8e60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, J.J.!
10 Dec 93, dixit J.J. Hitt ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Like I've been saying in HOLYSMOKE, I really would like to
SQ>> see his explanation of Biblical English, considering that
SQ>> the world's Germanic scholars currently hold nothing like
SQ>> it in their archives.
JH> Germanic? (Can you expand on that one please?)
Referring to the Germanic family of languages, including German, English,
Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Afrikaans, Yiddish, Icelandic, Frisian,
and a whole slew of others I can't name off the top of my head.
Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English was
spoken in Biblical times. The problem here is that scholars who study
English do not have examples of English going back that far (Hint: Because
there is no such thing.), and I would like to discuss this with Mr.
Stokes further.
JH> The answer is rather simple, the King James translators used a
JH> deliberately archic (and hence artificial) style.
Ralph would tell you that the answer is that Jesus and his contemporaries
spoke English. I kid you not.
... Excuse me, I have to recharge my flamethrower.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 13 Dec 93 23:27:35
--------
EID:3d50 1b8dbb60
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA3867
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Charlie Wilson really say something to Jon Strayer, on 09 Dec 93?
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories
CW> are required to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
Much as when you hold a deadweight in your hand, and suddenly release it,
it travels down towards the Earth. Science came up with a theory to explain
the observed event. The fact of gravity is explained by the theory of gravity
.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Steve Hendren
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 13 Dec 93 23:32:28
--------
EID:2632 1b8dbc00
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA398C
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Steve Hendren really say something to Kerry Penny, on 09 Dec 93?
SH> Actually, what he's referring to is called
SH> parthenogenesis. It occurs in some
You know, for the life of me I was trying to recall the term parthenogene
sis. I knew there was a term for it, but couldn't remember it.
SH> lower forms of vertebrate life, in fact the most
SH> sophisticated species I can
SH> remember hearing about it occurring in (yeesh! it's
SH> been a long time since
SH> I took embryology) is turkeys.I seem to remember
Okay. Thanks for the info.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 14 Dec 93 23:03:23
--------
EID:065d 1b8eb860
AK> This is correct. They all spoke in iambic pentameter and were excellent
AK> rhymers.
Hehehe.....
An admittedly less than perfect example.
I was looking for a common, readily available work and that small
"detail" escaped me.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 15:48:00
--------
EID:8862 1b907e00
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af0fa66f
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> Oops! I thought this echo dealt in truth. My mistake. :)
This echo deals in the examination of extrordinary claims, a rational endeavor
. For truth, see a religious or philosophical echo. I thought this had been
ex
plained to you already.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: Parthenogenesis
Date: 17 Dec 93 00:21:17
--------
EID:ad59 1b9102a0
KP> Call me skeptical about this, but I can't see it
KP> happening in humans. Again, though, I do not have
KP> complete knowledge of the field.
Ok... you're skeptical. ;)
I myself dont have any problem in seeing "it" happening with humans.
Or rather, I am not all that certain that an unfertilized egg cant go
into a "run away" condition all by itself.
What I have problems with is the idea that it could result in a
healthy live birth. (In humans only about 40 percent of conceptions
end in birth, the majority abort spontaneously without the woman even
knowing she's pregnant. Dont ask me HOW they collected the data for
that statistic, I'm still wondering myself...)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: All
Sub: The date of "creation"
Date: 17 Dec 93 00:48:05
--------
EID:91ac 1b910600
> Creationism asserts that the entire universe was
> created--as recounted in the Bible--in a preiod of seven
> (presumably twenty-four-hour) days. The Bible gives no date
> for the creation, but in the middle 1600s, a Christian
> scholar, Archbishop Usher, used the "begats" in the Bible to
> determine that the creation took place in 4004 B.C.
(Pardon me while I think out loud for a moment, I'll be brief..)
Poor ol' Bishop U. I see many authors who refer to him, but I feel
few if any really do the old fellow justice. Many love to cite the
4004 BC date, but rarely do any mention that his was the FIRST
attempt to determine the age of the earth.
I'll admit that he'd have gotten much better results if he had
collected his data from the then infantile sciences of Astronomy and
Geology instead of the Bible, but in asking a very legitimate
question ("How old is the world?) that had before his day been totaly
unasked, his effort was a major milestone in human inquiry.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Fred Hatfield
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 17 Dec 93 03:55:02
--------
EID:960a 1b911ee1
In a message of <14 Dec 93 00:37:26>, Tad Cook (1:343/124) writes:
TC> DT>tg Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
TC> DT>
TC> DT>Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I
TC> DT>want to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am
TC> DT>really wondering if a media consultants is really a psychologist...
TC> DT>Are there some that are charlatan...
TC> FH>
TC> FH> I'm pretty sure that Ed Rollins is looking for employment right
now..
TC>Hey, Fred! Good to see ya here! I didn't know you made it to
TC>the Skeptic's echo.
With all my CSCIOP interests, I lurk in many echoes. I've been drifting
in an
d out of this one for a few years.
Thanks for the welcome, Tad.
Fred Hatfield K8VDU @ N5UXT.LA.USA ..Basin Street Jazz from {TheBigEasy}..
--- QM v1.00
* Origin: The Digital Cottage in New Orleans 504-897-6614 (1:396/65.0)
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--------
From: Steve Horrighs
To: Crackpot
Sub: Hey there!
Date: 16 Dec 93 01:06:11
--------
EID:84ec 1b9008c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2@fidonet.org c804f067
Sir,
i was just wondering if you were still skeptical about Satellite
delivery system?
:)
Steve
* QMPro 1.51 * Tried to play my shoehorn... all I got was footnotes!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: Fantasy Land BBS * Williamsville, IL * 217-566-3775 (1:2430/2)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 16 Dec 93 13:29:10
--------
EID:ce09 1b906ba0
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d10a941
SQ>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English
was
SQ>> spoken in Biblical times.
JJH> THUD!
JJH> I'm really going to have to turn HOLYSMOKES on, I cant miss this.
JJH> (But it's going to mean buying a high speed modem, I'm afraid)
If it's true, it's a fresh claim. The one _I_ saw Ralph make is that the
King
James Bible is a perfect, inerrant translation - not that the folks of classic
al Palestine spoke English, but that God inspired the KJV translators to
produ
ce a 100% accurate rendering into English.
Silly enough, but not _that_ silly.
-=[ Bruce ]=-
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR - Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Jane Harris
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: earlier message
Date: 16 Dec 93 12:44:00
--------
EID:8d75 1b906580
MSGID: 1:3642/703 860DB939
KP>Did Jane Harris really say something to All, on 06 Dec 93?
JH> This is in reference to the message about feamle eggs
JH> dividing and producing non-viable offspring. I think
KP> Which is substantially different than the idea of the egg, alone,
star
t
KP>to divide by itself. Do you have any knowledge of anything along that
line
?
KP>--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
KP> * Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
I agree, that is totaly different, and I don't know of any instance of that,
but I will check around.
---
ž DeLuxeż 1.25 #12781 ž Stand on the razor's edge, expect to get cut
--- WM v3.10/93-1141
* Origin: Ice Palace BBS (1:3642/703)
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--------
From: Mark Patterson @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 15 Dec 93 01:11:00
--------
EID:f5d2 1b8f0960
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027cc1b
-=> Quoting Sysop to Charlie Wilson <=-
Sy> I'd forgotten about that one. Poundstone tells about another one,
Sy> from Pink Floyd, where the voice congratulates you for finding the
Sy> secret message, and says you can pick up your prize care of Old Pink.
Sy> That one cracked me up.
Another good one can be seen in the movie "Dream Descevers" About the
families in Nevada who sued Judas Priest over the claim that the
backmasked "Do it, Do it" caused their children attempt suicide. At the
trial, the atty for the family asked the lead singer if there was anything
backmasked on the album, the lead singer said "yeah." On the cross
examination by his attorney, the lead singer played the backmasked bit.
The line was "I asked her for a peppermint. I asked her to bring me
one"
Great movie, BTW, I highly recommend it.
... Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it is what you put into it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 16 Dec 93 23:39:33
--------
EID:f14f 1b90bce0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027b1be
DB> Don't be so quick to attack Kurtz.
I'm surprised I should have to make this point with _you_, but make it
I shall: I have not attacked, do not attack, and shall not attack Prof.
Kurtz. I spoke critically about particular _statements and actions_
of his. Not only do I not attack his personal characteristics, but
also I'm not particularly well acquainted with them.
DB> Skepticism, as a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint, is different from
DB> skepticism as most organized skeptics practice it.
There is not now, and never has been, any school of philosophy called
skepticism -- unless you are prepared to go back to obscure parts of
ancient Greek culture, to severely stretch a point. In particular,
launching into a long description of more-or-less what everyone else
calls ethical humanism, and deciding to label it "skepticism", does
not make it a "philosophical viewpoint".
Further, doing this as the head of a group furthering a very different,
long-established effort, about which far too many people are confused
already -- an effort that for good reasons is at some pains to make
sure people don't think it an ideology -- poses the very large problems
that I referred briefly to, and that you and I both know all too well.
DB> Remember that Kurtz IS a philosopher.
And I'm a bicyclist -- but I don't go around claiming that skepticism
is a means of transportation. ;->
Skepticism means critical inquiry into whether testable claims on the
fringes of science have merit.
DB> No, that's what skepticism means as we use it.
"We" refers to dozens of skeptics' groups around the world, for
seventeen years -- and maintaining the clarity of what we mean by that,
and what we specifically do not, has always been and is now of
particular importance. "Non-we" refers to Prof. Paul Kurtz, speaking
for himself, alone.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 23:49:27
--------
EID:eb9f 1b90be20
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027b2be
CS>DP> (Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a
CS>DP> pseudonym?)
DP> What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now, taking
DP> advantage of my right to use a name of my own choosing.
You're more distinctively identified by that handle than most people
are, on-line, who use the names they write on their grocery cheques
-- and it's not as if Big Brother can't figure out from the nodelist
where to come pick you up.
If you were seeking irresponsible anonymity, one would think you would
pick some really generic, non-distinctive name, like, say, "Smith". ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: All
Sub: Skeptics' Xmas Movie
Date: 16 Dec 93 22:01:00
--------
EID:20cc 1b90b020
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d1120ec
Has anyone seen the new skeptics' Christmas movie?
It's called "Coincidence on 34th Street."
___Anson
---
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: News from james randi
Date: 16 Dec 93 07:05:13
--------
EID:1099 1b9038a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38b6cdd6
REPLY: 8:916/1008 8d27d71b
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Rick Moen @ 916/1008 of 8:916/1
008 writes:
> Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out only a few
> things so far (I think they were a copy of the list itself, a notice
> from Anson about having newsletters FTPable, and a few other minor
> things), but it's there.
RM@9>
RM@9> Well, that's a step forward, but it sounds as if they're not yet
RM@9> operating a mailing list in the tradtional sense of the term, that
RM@9> it's just a one-way broadcast mechanism for news and announcements.
Mostly, but they do do send out broadcasts submitted by members of the list,
i
f they are appropriate.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Ark Hoax
Date: 16 Dec 93 07:07:28
--------
EID:8673 1b9038e0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38b6d30d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet ad0bb00b
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoN
et writes:
db> George Jammal Mime Show
db> 7101 Eastondale Ave.
db> Long Beach, CA 90805
FR> Thank you much. I'll send him a post card from Koudekerk.
He was on Inside Edition yesterday, but apparently nobody in this hick town
ru
ns the show. I'm gonna look into getting a tape.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Wall St. Journal
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:34:28
--------
EID:85aa 1b909440
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd274d
I don't know if anybody's been following the stuff going on in the Wall
St. Jo
urnal, but here is some of it. Below is an opinion piece that appeared
on Dec
ember 6, written by Stephen C. Meyer of Whitworth College in Spokane, Washingt
on. In the next few messages are some info that is NOT contained in this
piec
e. I would suggest you read them all before replying to any.
(Thanks to Jim Lippard for forwarding this all to me.)
==========================================================================
When most of us think of the controversy over evolution in the public
schools, we are likely to think of fundamentalists pulling teachers from
their classrooms and placing them in the dock. Images from the infamous
Scopes "monkey" trial of 1925 come to mind. Unfortunately, intolerance
of
this sort has shown itself in California in the 1990s as a result of
students complaining about a biology instructor. Unlike the original Scopes
case, however, this case involves a distinguished biology professor at a
major university - indeed, an acknowledged expert on evolutionary theory.
Also unlike Scopes, the teacher was forbidden to teach his course not
because he taught evolutionary theory (which he did) but because he offered
a critical assessment of it. The controversy first emerged last fall
after Dean Kenyon, a biology professor at San Francisco State University,
was ordered not to teach "creationism" by John Hafernik, the chairman of
his biology department. Mr. Kenyon, who included three lectures in
biological orgins in his introductory course, had for many years made a
practice of exposing students to both evolutionary theory and evidence
uncongenial to it. He also discussed the philosophical controversies
raised by the issue and his own view that living systems display evidence
of intelligent design - a view not incompatible with some forms of
evolutionary thinking. Mr. Hafernik accused Mr. Kenyon of teaching what
he characterized as biblical creationism and ordered him to stop. After
Mr. Hafernik's decree, Mr. Kenyon asked for clarification. He wrote the
dean, Jim Kelley, asking what exactly he could not discuss. Was he
"forbidden to mention to students that there are important disputes among
scientists about whether or not chemical evolution could have taken
place on the ancient earth?" Mr. Kelley replied by insisting that Mr.
Kenyon "teach the dominant scientific view," not the religious view of
"special creation on a young earth." Mr. Kenyon replied again (I
paraphrase): I do teach the dominant view. But I also discuss problems
with the dominant view and that some biologists see evidence of
intelligent design. He received no reply. Instead, he was yanked from
teaching introductory biology and reassigned to labs. There are several
disturbing aspects to this story. First, Mr. Kenyon is an authority on
chemical evolutionary theory and the scientific study of the origin of
life. He has a Ph.D. in biophysics from Stanford and is the co-author of
a
seminal theoretical work titled "Biochemical Predestination" (1969). The
book articulated what was arguably the most plausible evolutionary account
of how a living cell might have organized itself from chemicals in the "
primordial soup." Mr. Kenyon's subsequent work resulted in numerous
scientific publications on the orgin-of-life problem. But by the late
1970s, Mr. Kenyon began to question some of his own earlier ideas.
Experiements (some performed by Mr. Kenyon himself) increasingly
contradicted the dominant view in his field. Laboratory work suggested
that
simple chemicals do not arrange themselves into complex information-bearing
molecules such as DNA - without, that is, "guidance" from human
experimenters. To Mr. Kenyon and others, such results raised important
questions about how "naturalistic" the origin of life really was. If
undirected chemical processes cannot produce the coded strands of
information found in even the simplest cells, could perhaps a directing
intelligence have played a role? By the 1980s, Mr. Kenyon had adopted the
second view. That a man of Mr. Kenyon's stature should now be forced to
lobby for the right to teach introductory biology, whatever his current
view
of origins, is absurdly comic. Mr. Kenyon knows perhaps as much as anyone
in the world about a problem that has stymied an entire generation of
research scientists. Yet he now finds that he may not report the negative
results of research or give students his candid assessment of it. What
is
more, the simplistic labeling of Mr. Kenyon's statements as "religion" and
the strictly materialistic view as "scientific" seems entirely unwarranted,
especially given the philosophical overtones of much origins theory.
Biology texts routinely recapitulate Darwinian arguments against intelligent
design. Yet if arguments against intelligent design are philosophically
neutral and strictly scientific, why are Mr. Kenyon's arguments for
intelligent design inherently unscientific and religiously charged? In
seeking the best explanation for evidence, Mr. Kenyon has employed the same
method of reasoning as before he changed his view. His conclusions, not
his
methods, have changed. The problem is that in biological origins theory,
dominant players currently insist on a rigidly materialistic mode of
explanation - even when, as Mr. Kenyon maintains, explanation of the
evidence requires more than the limited powers of brute matter. Such
intellectual strictures reflect the very essence of polictical correctness:
the suppression of critical discourse by enforced rules of thought.
Fortunately, San Francisco State University's Academic Freedom Committee
has
come to a similar conclusion, ruling decisively this summer in Mr. Kenyon's
favor. The committee determined that, according to university guidelines,
a clear breach of academic freedom had occurred. Apparently, however, Mr.
Hafernik and Mr. Kelley disagree. Mr. Hafernik has emphatically rejected
the committee's recommendation to reinstate Mr. Kenyon, citing his own
freedom to determine scientifically appropriate curriculum. In response,
the American Association of University Professors informed the university
last month that they expect Mr. Kenyon's mistreatment to be rectified.
Meanwhile, as SFSU considers its response, a world-class scientist waits
-
yet another casualty of America's peculiar academic fundamentalism.
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Background info I/II
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:36:34
--------
EID:d794 1b909480
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd276e
Some Information Relevant to the 1992/1993 Science vs
Creationism Controversy
(Prepared by John Hafernik)
The Past
In 1980/1981, the Department of Biology had its first Creationism
Controversy. This controversy centered on the presentation by Dr.
Kenyon of creationism, then called "scientific creationism," in
Biology 337 Evolution. At that time, Dr. Kenyon challenged anyone
on the faculty to a debate on the merits of evolutionary theory
versus "scientific creationism." There was much discussion in
faculty meetings as well. Eventually the faculty voted (none
opposed, seven abstentions) not to alter the description of
Biology 337 to include creationism. The precedent set, in the
context of the 1980 discussions, was that the Department did not
support teaching creationism.
When the controversy arose anew in the fall of 1992, I acted in a
way that was in line with the views of the faculty expressed in
1980.
The Present
The present controversy began when students in Dr. Kenyon's
Biology 100 class complained to me that he included unscientific
material (creationism) in his lectures. They also complained
about other aspects of Dr. Kenyon's class.
Some points to keep in mind are as follows:
1. The Department of Biology, through its chair and biocouncil,
is not saying that there should be no place for the discussion of
Dr. Kenyon's philosophical views within the University's
curriculum. No one is attempting to restrict the expression of
his views in his personal professional endeavors. What is being
said is that students in an introductory general studies science
class should learn the ways of science. To mix science and the
views of oneUs religion together does students a disservice.
2. The University Guidelines for Academic Freedom and
Responsibility include the following statement: "Students have the
right to the instruction promised them in official University
publications." In this case instruction in science and not
religion. Students are entitled to truth in advertizing.
3. The topic of evolution, as used in the course description of
Biology 100, is not generally considered synonymous with the topic
of "origins" as used by Dr. Kenyon and the Academic Freedom
Committee. "Origins" is a more politically correct term used by
creationists for special creation.
4. "Intelligent design" as used by Dr. Kenyon is a concept
historically associated with "creationism."
5. If there is a dispute as to what constitutes science or
appropriate application of scientific standards, the dispute
should be resolved by those who are most knowledgeable, peers
within the discipline.
6. Decisions about the specifics of the class schedule for the
Biology Department must be made by the Department not by a
committee composed of faculty members from other departments, nor
by upper level administrators.
The Published Record
In their book Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of
Biological Origins (first edition 1989, second edition 1993)
Percival Davis and Dr. Kenyon present their views of evolutionary
biology, point out difficulties they have with modern theory, and
present the intelligent design paradigm as a scientific
alternative. This book provides a written account of Dr. Kenyon's
views on the topics he covers in his Biology 100 lectures on
"origins." In my discussions with Dr. Kenyon, he suggested I
read his book to learn more about his objections to modern
evolutionary theory and about the scientific support for the
"intelligent design paradigm." Although the words God, Creator,
and creationism are never used in the work, it has been
extensively criticized by biologists and philosophers of science
as: (a) presenting a religious view, special creation/intelligent
design, as science; (b) presenting an inaccurate and distorted
view of evolutionary biology, genetics, and other areas of
biology; and (c) being seriously flawed in its philosophical
underpinnings.
cont...
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Background Info II/II
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:37:28
--------
EID:cee9 1b9094a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd278d
cont...
Background Information
The AAUP: Creationism and Academic Freedom
1. At its 1981 annual meeting, the AAUP endorsed a resolution in
opposition to an Arkansas law that called for "balanced
treatment" of "creation science" and evolution in public schools.
The resolution includes the following:
a. "This legislation by requiring that a religious doctrine
(sometimes disguised) be taught as a condition for teaching of
science, serves to impair the soundness of scientific education
preparatory to college study and to violate the academic freedom
of public school teachers."
b. "Members of college and university faculty in Arkansas and
elsewhere should be able to teach and criticize freely in accord
with professional standards".
c. In the March-April issue of Academe, devoted to the issue
of creationism, Matthew Finkin writes that the resolution allows
that "The idea of special creation can be treated extensively in
courses in religion, anthropology, intellectual and social
history."
d. In the same issue of Academe John Moore clearly shows why
the claims of "scientific creationism" do not meet the test of the
professional standards of science.
Would the AAUP now take the position that it's okay to teach
creationism as science in a general studies biology class in a
public university, as long as it's taught by a tenured professor?
I don't know, but it seems they would have to assess their
previous stance.
2. In July-August 1993 issue of Academe, Cass Sunstein Professor
of Jurisprudence, University of Chicago Law School and Department
of Political Science discusses Academic Freedom issues on
University campuses. In his article, he points out "Subject
matter restrictions are part of education. Irrelevant discussion
is banned. Students cannot discuss the presidential election, or
Marx and Mill, if the subject is math. Schools are allowed to
impose subject matter restrictions that would be plainly
unacceptable if enacted by states or localities." Professor
Sunstein does not specifically address the issue of teaching a
religious belief as science, but the parallel to the point he
makes seems clear.
Legal Rulings
1. Judge William Overton in his 1982 ruling overturning the
Arkansas equal time law made the following points:
a. Creation science is not science but a religious belief. It
is not science because it does not meet the essential
characteristics of science. These characteristics of science are:
1) It is guided by natural law;
2) It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;
3) It is testable against the empirical world;
4) It conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily
the final word; and
5) It is falsifiable.
b. "The emphasis on origins as an aspect of the theory of
evolution is peculiar to creationist literature."
c. "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology...Any
student who is deprived of instruction as to the prevailing view
of scientific thought on these topics will be denied a significant
part of science education. Such a deprivation through the high
school level would undoubtedly have an impact on the quality of
education in the State's colleges and universities including the
pre-professional programs in the health sciences."
d. "The application and content of the First Amendment
principles are not determined by public opinion polls or majority
vote...No group, no matter how large or small, may use the organs
of government, of which public schools are the most conspicuous
and influential, to foist its religious beliefs on others."
Judge Overton is clear Rcreation scienceS is religion and not
science. In public institutions, students are entitled to be taught
science in science classes. Teaching religion is not appropriate
under the Constitution. Science, the leading journal of science in
the United States, published Judge OvertonUs decision in full as a
major article.
2. In 1987 the Supreme Court overturned a Louisiana Law requiring
that "creation science" be taught on an equal basis with
evolution science (sic) whenever evolution is taught in the public
schools. The court found this statute unconstitutional because
the statute had no clear secular purpose, but rather was designed
to promote one particular religious view. The decision appears,
to the layman, to be narrower in scope when compared to Judge
Overton's ruling. The lower court used Judge Overton's decision
in striking down the Louisiana law without trial. Justice Powell
in his concurring opinion makes some interesting points based on
previous court decisions. "[C]oncepts concerning God or a supreme
being of some sort are manifestly religious... These concepts do
not shed that religiosity merely because they are presented as
science or philosophy." 'Creation ex nihilo' means creation from
nothing and has been found to be an 'inherently religious
concept'. The argument that creation from nothing does not
involve a supernatural deity has no evidentiary or rational
support. To the contrary, 'creation out of nothing' is a concept
unique to Western Religions."
The case brought against the statute included an Amici Curiae
brief filed by 72 Nobel Laureates et al. refuting the claim that
"Creation Science" was science.
Justice Scalia in his dissenting opinion relied, in part, on
testimony from Dr. Kenyon that "Creation Science" is a strictly
scientific concept that could be presented without religious
reference and that it was accepted as valid by "hundreds and
hundreds of reputable scientists."
3. In 1987, an exercise physiology professor at the University of
Alabama referred to his religious beliefs in his exercise
physiology course. He also organized an optional after-class
meeting for his students and other interested persons wherein he
lectured on Evidences of God in Human Physiology." His lecture
included the notion that man was created by God and was not the by-
product of evolution. The University told him to stop expressing
his religious views in class or in class meetings associated with
his class. He sued citing infringement of his First Amendment
rights. In 1991, the United States Court of Appeals for the
Eleventh Circuit ruled, and the Supreme Court allowed to stand,
that the University of Alabama could instruct a faculty member
that he could not interject his religious beliefs into class
lectures. In that decision, the court made the point that "free
speech does not grant teachers a license to say or write in class
whatever they may feel like, and ... the propriety of regulations
or sanctions must depend on such circumstances as the age and
sophistication of the students, the closeness of the relation
between the specific technique used and some concededly valid
educational objective, and the context and manner of
presentation."
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Letter from Dr. Scott
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:37:58
--------
EID:e16c 1b9094a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd27ab
The following is a letter that was sent to the Wall St. Journal by Dr. Eugenie
Scott, Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education.
It w
as printed, in its entirety, yesterday, along with several other letters,
both
pro and con.
Editor December 6, 1993
Wall Street Journal
200 Liberty St.
New York, NY 10281
FAX: 212-416-2658
Sir,
In his op-ed piece on professor Dean Kenyon's troubles at UCSF, Stephen
C.
Meyer exhibits serious misunderstandings of science, academic freedom, and
the creation/evolution controversy. First, either life originated naturally
or supernaturally. Science is limited to only natural explanations. Yes,
theoreticians in this area rely on materialist explanations: they are doing
science. Kenyon's teaching of "intelligent design" is indeed religion,
not
science. Further, if today we don't know all the steps involved in the
origin of life, this doesn't mean we have to leap to a supernatural
explanation, or to conclude that evolution didn't occur, which is Kenyon's
message and why he is opposed by his chairman and other scientists.
Second, academic freedom also requires academic responsibility. The first
responsibility is to students, who should get what they sign up for. In
a
biology class, students should be taught state of the art biology, not
theology. Regardless of its lukewarm support in the general public,
evolution is the foundation principle of biology and teaching that it didn't
occur is equivalent to teaching flat-earth geography. It is not a
violation of Kenyon's academic freedom to ask him to teach standard
biology. In fact, he teaches his non-standard biology in upper division
classes and in graduate seminars. It is only in a freshman course, where
students are least prepared to understand why Kenyon's ideas are wrong,
that
he is restricted. Doesn't sound too onerous to me.
What Kenyon is teaching, by his own admission and the testimony of students
in the class, is a view of evolutionary theory exemplified in his book,
Of
Pandas and People, which presents "intelligent design theory," a mutation,
so to speak, of scientific creationism which reflects the same
religiously-inspired caricature of evolutionary theory and bad biology as
its ancestor. Kenyon claims in Pandas that "two completely hybrid (sic)
individuals could produce offspring exhibiting the complete range of
possible skin colors," a statement breathtakingly ignorant of genetics,
but
"explaining" how the great range of human skin colors could arise from Noah
and his family. Students deserve better.
Sincerely yours,
Eugenie C. Scott, Ph.D.
Executive Director, NCSE
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Hollandaise Sauce
Date: 20 Dec 93 13:32:01
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e26
REPLY: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff355
PID: FM 2.02
dp> So, any chance of your return from exile soon?
It doesn't look good.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 20 Dec 93 12:19:31
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e27
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d10a941
PID: FM 2.02
bb> The one _I_ saw Ralph make is that the King James Bible
bb> is a perfect, inerrant translation...
bb> Silly enough, but not _that_ silly.
His untestable and, well, silly claims gets even more silly. He claimed
that
everyone would turn into a 33 and a half year old white male "after they're
de
ad." Which includes females. The 'reason' for this was that he
was to
ld that the Jesus mythos was white, middle class American. It
is in
keeping with some KKK video tapes I've seen.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Background Info II/II
Date: 20 Dec 93 13:28:16
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e28
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 38bd278d
PID: FM 2.02
db> d. In the same issue of Academe John Moore clearly shows why
db> the claims of "scientific creationism" do not meet the test of the
db> professional standards of science.
I could well imagine the horror of being released from an educational facility
then to make application at a place of employment for a geology posistion
onl
y to learn that the education which had been imparted had actually been
religi
ous mythology -- I'm thinking diploma mills like the ICR.
The demands that opposistion to evolutionary theories mustbe permitted is
entirely acceptable to science, of course, yet the suggestion that speciation
doesn't take place (or never did) or that there _must_ be intelligent design
reguardless of the rather telling lack of evidence for this intelligence
shoul
d
be enough, I would think, to put an end to such nonsense.
One wonders how much money has been spent fighting the teaching of religious
m
ythologies as fact in the public school room. And one must also wonder
how mu
ch money has been spent allowing acedemics to voice actual concern with
theori
es. In any event, I should read "Pandas."
db> 3) It is testable against the empirical world;
db> 5) It is falsifiable.
That should have been the end of it.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 18 Dec 93 09:46:00
--------
EID:d122 1b924dc0
MSGID: 1:105/95.0 d130c8f4
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0b
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to David Bloomberg:
FR> I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that
FR> The People lived on three other planets prior to coming here
FR> in the form of First Man and First Woman (in that order.)
FR> They brought with them all the animals and plants that were
FR> on the third planet and came to the "center" of the Earth.
Lots of American aboriginal peoples have the same kind of story. The Osage
say
that their ancestors came from the northern stars, and that though they
_look
_ like other people, they're really very different. (A few years back I
was do
ing a research project on St. Louis in the 1810s, and read a bunch of folklore
as part of that.) There were editor's notes to the effect that _most_ tribes
have a similar sense of having come from somewhere else.
Sometimes I'm tempted to post that in alt.alien.visitors...
--- timEd-B9
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 17 Dec 93 10:32:00
--------
EID:6d9e 1b915400
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d11d0f0
David,
I've heard news reports on a 22 year old pregnant woman in Illinois. The
oxygen supply to the fetus is restricted and doctors say the fetus will
be
born dead or severely brain-damaged if the woman doesn't have a C-section
soon (she's 37 weeks pregnant, if I recall). The woman is a born again
Pentecostal fundamentalist and refuses the operation, preferring instead
to wait for a miracle from God to allow her baby to be born normally and
healthy. The state has taken her to court to force her to have the
operation, but the courts have refused.
My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this case?
___Anson
---
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 16 Dec 93 14:30:00
--------
EID:e803 1b9073c0
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d10b738
David Bloomberg wrote the following to Anson Kennedy about Re: News from
james rand on 12-13-93:
DB>In a msg to Rick Moen @ 916/1008 on , Anson
DB>Kennedy of 1:133/208 writes:
DB>
DB> AK> The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently
DB> AK> up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't
DB>
DB>Can you send me a copy of the mailing list? When Barry
DB>originally sent it out, my address was still wrong, and he
DB>hasn't re-sent it.
DB>
I noticed in the latest list he left off the "p0" -- hmmm. :-)
Anyway, I'll forward the message he sent out this week to you. Most of the
stuff in it you've probably seen (or heard about) before.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 16 Dec 93 14:32:02
--------
EID:e803 1b907400
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d10b7b2
David Bloomberg wrote the following to Anson Kennedy about Re: News from
james rand on 12-13-93:
DB> AK> When did you see that notice?
DB>
DB>I didn't. I was going on what Barry told me.
DB>
DB>(Remember, I haven't seen ANYTHING from the list yet. :-)
There's not been much to miss thus far. Barry really should verify the
addresses in he list sometime. Your entry is *not* corrected the way I
told him.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Lotto
Date: 17 Dec 93 07:42:00
--------
EID:592a 1b913d40
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9227cc1b
SR>Hello Steve!
SR> SC@9> Oh well, I guess the advent of the calculator has killed off the
old
> SC@9> "common sense" double-check of calculation results.
> SC@9>
> SC@9> Since you don't have to match the order, the odds in your game are
> SC@9> (6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) * (2/46) * (1/45) = 1/15,890,700
SR>You've neglected to factor in 'Lotto America's misleading 'PowerBall'
>element.
>Ups the odds to around 55 million! ;-)
I'm not familiar with Lotto America. California started with 6/49
then went to 6/53 (I think) to generate more mega-jackpots then went
to something called Super Lotto which is 6/??. I was just responding
to the 6/50 example from the discussion. Still, 1/55 million is still
a darn sight more realistic that 1/billions.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * I had my car's alignment checked...it's chaotic-evil.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: All
Sub: Santa Skepticism
Date: 17 Dec 93 10:59:00
--------
EID:61af 1b915760
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9227cd1b
The following is based on a fax sent to me by a friend. I don't
know who authored the original but it is apparently based, at
least in part, on information in the January 1990 issue of "Spy"
magazine.
No known species of reindeer can fly, BUT, there are 300,000
species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while
most of these are insects and germs this does not COMPLETELY
rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.
There are over 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the
world but since Santa doesn't appear to handle Muslim,
Hindu, Jewish, and Buddhist children, that reduces the
workload by 85% leaving 378 million children according to
the Population Reference Bureau. At an average of 3.5
children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. We
presume there's at least one good child in each.
Due to different time zones and the rotation of the earth,
Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with. This works out
822.6 visits per second - that is to say that for each
Christian household with good children Santa has roughly
1/1000 of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down
the chimney fill the stockings, place the remaining gifts
under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back
up the chimney, get back to the sleigh, and move on to the
next house. Assuming that these 91.8 million stops are
evenly distributed around the earth, we are now talking
about .78 miles per household, or a total trip of 75.5
million miles. This means that Santa's sleigh must average
650 miles per second or about mach 3,000. For reference, the
fastest man-made vehicle (the Ulysses space probe) moves at
a poky 27.4 miles per second and a conventional reindeer
can run at 30 miles per hour tops or 0.00833 miles per
second.
The payload on the sleigh poses another interesting problem.
Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-
sized Lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300
tons, not counting Santa who is invariably described as
"overweight". On land, conventional reindeer can pull no
more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer"
(see first point) could pull ten times the normal amount, we
cannot do the job with eight or even nine. We will need
214,200 reindeer. This increases the gross weight, not
counting the sleigh, to 353,430 tons or roughly 4 times the
weight of the Queen Elizabeth oceanliner.
The reindeer and sleigh, traveling through the atmosphere at
650 miles per second, will encounter enormous air-resistance
which will heat the reindeer up in the same way that a
spacecraft reentering the atmosphere is heated. The lead
reindeer will absorb over 14 quintillion joules per second
of energy each causing them to burst into flames virtually
instantaneously. The entire team will be vaporized within
4.26 milliseconds and deafening and destructive sonic booms
will follow the sleigh.
With all this starting and stopping, Santa will be subjected
to acceleration forces of over 17,500G thus a ludicrously
slim 250 pound Santa would have an apparent weight of well
over 4 million pounds. Of course, by the end of the trip
Santa will weigh much more due to the cookies and milk.
Assuming an eight-ounce glass of milk and a two-ounce cookie
per household, Santa will consume over 5.7 million gallons
of milk (or the volume of a cube over 90 feet on a side) and
11,475 tons of cookies in the course of his travels.
In conclusion, if Santa ever tried to deliver presents on
Christmas Eve, he's dead now.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * I had my car's alignment checked...it's chaotic-evil.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 12 Dec 93 19:59:23
--------
EID:df02 1b8c9f60
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 (or 11,441,304,000 or a REAL BIG BUNCH)
SC> WRONG! Those are the odds against picking all the numbers AND in the
SC> correct order as well. The lotto may be a bad bet but come on, it isn't
SC> THAT bad.
I sit corrected.
That message at least acheived one of it's aims; and that to was
introduce my self to the echo. Now I only have to sit back and see how
many more corrections I receive.
What I was initially reacting to was the notion that there was a "sure
fire" way to win at a Lotto game. Sure there is. But the cost/benefit
ratio keeps it from being a profitable option.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Hendren
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 12 Dec 93 20:12:26
--------
EID:67cd 1b8ca180
SH> Actually, what he's referring to is called
SH> parthenogenesis. It occurs in some
SH> lower forms of vertebrate life, in fact the most
SH> sophisticated species I can
SH> remember hearing about it occurring in (yeesh! it's been a
SH> long time since I took embryology) is turkeys. I seem to remember
SH> something about the offspring always being female.
I've heard that bit about turkeys several times before myself, but
couldn't find any references to it. (a warning bell sounds softly...)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 18 Dec 93 19:09:28
--------
EID:d379 1b929920
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11F9FBE8
REPLY: 1:343/124.0 2d0bf88f
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Tad Cook really say something to Kerry Penny, on 10 Dec 93?
TC> Over on the POLITICS echo she has been distributing a
TC> video
TC> called WACO: THE BIG LIE. Did she make that tape?
Yes, she (says she) culled that tape from hundreds of hours of video foot
age shot by various news crews. Others who have seen it have said that
they c
an see no such thing as flame throwing tanks starting the fire at the Branch
D
avidian compound. I've been thinking of getting a copy, but really don't
want
to further her efforts to make region 11 look as if it's full of loonies,
nor
do I want to be one of her statistics ("Why, lots of people believe the
same
I do. Just yesterday I was requested to provide yet another videotape of
`Wac
o, the Big Lie'").
It's hard to believe her when she provides evidence in the form of Comput
er Users Digest articles to support her contentions.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Simon Shaw
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 18 Dec 93 20:32:43
--------
EID:f1b1 1b92a400
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA0F6B
REPLY: 3:690/372.0 2d0ec4ea
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Simon Shaw really say something to Kerry Penny, on 15 Dec 93?
SS> Sorry guys but virgin births are possible ! I'm not
I don't think that anyone here said it was _impossible_. I did say that
I consider it doubtful, for the reason that half of the needed material
is mis
sing (unless the egg happened to contain all the mother's chromosomes and
the
fertilization signal is given to allow formation of the fertilization membrane
around the ovum to prevent entry of sperm).
SS> too sure about the details but I'm positive that a
SS> female egg can divide through other means than being
SS> impregated with a sperm cell. Yes the offspring is
That's not in doubt. Queen bees alternate between parthenogenesis and fe
rtilization, as do aphids. Many plants do, also.
What is in doubt (by me, I can't say anyone else has a problem with this)
is whether humans have the ability to do this. I'm no expert in the field,
t
hough, so I will readily change my mind on this when presented with good
evide
nce that it does indeed occur (along with the results of such occurences).
SS> Will post message on internet for more info.
Good, the more info we have the better off we are.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 18 Dec 93 11:35:43
--------
EID:c149 1b925c60
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9327d01b
DB> Ah, heck, then let's just throw the whole thing away! There is no
DB> gravity, the Earth sucks!
Sure there's gravity. It's the opposite of comedy.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 18 Dec 93 11:38:05
--------
EID:640a 1b925cc0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9327d11b
CW> RM> It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
CW>
CW> There's only one problem: I'm not one.
That's not a problem, because I never said you were one. I was speaking
of the _assertion_, not of _you_. I was saying it was commonly heard
from creationists, not that _you_ were a creationist. Clearer?
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 18 Dec 93 11:40:38
--------
EID:640a 1b925d00
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9327d21b
CW> DP> What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now,
CW> DP> taking advantage of my right to use a name of my own choosing.
CW> DP> 10 2
CW> DP> DR PEPPER
CW> DP> 4
CW>
CW> Oops! I thought this echo dealt in truth. My mistake. :)
You were indeed mistaken. This does not purport to be a "truth echo".
For that, you will want the PHIL echo, instead. This echo is concerned
with critically examining the merits of fringe-science claims of fact.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Beverlee Broadlick
To: Ed Hackett
Sub: Skeptic
Date: 19 Dec 93 15:02:46
--------
EID:1497 1b937840
MSGID: 1:203/726.0 2d14dd96
Thank you for your response Ed. Now that I am beginning to understand the
ter
ms Skeptic and incredicle what do you mean when you say something is impossibl
e. Does that mean: (a) it can't be done or; (b) it can't be done just now
bec
ause of some limiting factor? Best wishes....Beverlee
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Skeptics' Xmas Movie
Date: 18 Dec 93 20:52:26
--------
EID:a4b1 1b92a680
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38d8be53
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d1120ec
In a msg to All on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208 writes:
AK> Has anyone seen the new skeptics' Christmas movie?
AK> It's called "Coincidence on 34th Street."
:-) (-:
I wish you'd gotten that out last week, when we could have included it in
the
newsletter.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 18 Dec 93 20:54:39
--------
EID:ed1f 1b92a6c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38d8cbf8
REPLY: 8:916/1008 9027b1be
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Rick Moen @ 916/1008 of 8:916/1
008 writes:
DB> Don't be so quick to attack Kurtz.
RM@9> I'm surprised I should have to make this point with _you_, but make
it
RM@9> I shall: I have not attacked, do not attack, and shall not attack
Prof
.
RM@9> Kurtz. I spoke critically about particular _statements and actions_
RM@9> of his. Not only do I not attack his personal characteristics, but
RM@9> also I'm not particularly well acquainted with them.
Sorry, you're right. I should have said: Don't be so quick to attack Kurtz's
statements.
DB> Skepticism, as a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint, is different from
DB> skepticism as most organized skeptics practice it.
RM@9> There is not now, and never has been, any school of philosophy called
RM@9> skepticism
Maybe not called that exactly, but I have an unpublished manuscript by Dr.
Ric
hard Walker, who studied philosophy and got his Ph.D. in sociology (I think)
a
nd who gave a lecture to the Illinois Science Teachers Association and to
REAL
L in which he listed Skeptics as one philosophical viewpoint. He includes
suc
h people as Descartes.
RM@9> Further, doing this as the head of a group furthering a very different,
RM@9> long-established effort, about which far too many people are confused
RM@9> already -- an effort that for good reasons is at some pains to make
RM@9> sure people don't think it an ideology -- poses the very large problems
RM@9> that I referred briefly to, and that you and I both know all too well.
True. And when Dr. Walker came to this part of his talk, I pointed out
that,
although this may be the philosophical viewpoint, it is not what we believe.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: New REALL News
Date: 19 Dec 93 10:21:02
--------
EID:257f 1b9352a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38e02f5b
The December issue The REALL News is out in electronic format and available
fo
r download or FReq from The Temples of Syrinx, 1:2430/2112, (217) 787-9101.
Ca
llers get download privileges on the first call.
REALL111.ZIP
The Five "Laws" of Quack Science, by Roy Auerbach -- details some of the
ways
in which quack science differs from sound science.
Pseudo-Science Terminology, by David Bloomberg -- describes some of the
differences between young-earth, old-earth, and other creationism.
REALLity Check, by David Bloomberg -- Pieces on College Campus Cults,
creationism in Illinois, an Arizona psychologist who used exorcism as
treatment, Dateline NBC on alternative medicine, and False Memory Syndrome
getting a lot of attention due to the accusations against Cardinal
Bernardin.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Mercury fillings
Date: 19 Dec 93 13:25:41
--------
EID:07a7 1b936b20
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38e1dc29
From the Chicago Tribune, 12/19/93:
Dentists to display mercury warnings
SAN FRANCISCO--Some dentists' offices in California will begin to caution
against mercury in fillings. Jeneric/Pentron Inc. of Wallingford, Conn.,
a ma
jor manufacturer of dental fillings has agreed to place warnings in the
office
s of dentists who use them. The signs will say the amalgam of silver and
othe
r metals contains and exposes patients to mercury, a chemical known to cause
b
irth defects and other reproductive harm. They also will advise patients
to c
onsult their dentists for more information. The Environmental Law Foundation
in Oakland reached the settlement on the warnings with Jeneric/
Pentron Inc., and it was approved last week in San Francisco County Superior
C
ourt.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 19 Dec 93 14:02:10
--------
EID:5d58 1b937040
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38e22c79
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d11d0f0
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writ
es:
AK> I've heard news reports on a 22 year old pregnant woman in Illinois.
The
AK> oxygen supply to the fetus is restricted and doctors say the fetus will
b
e
AK> born dead or severely brain-damaged if the woman doesn't have a C-section
AK> soon (she's 37 weeks pregnant, if I recall). The woman is a born again
AK> Pentecostal fundamentalist and refuses the operation, preferring instead
AK> to wait for a miracle from God to allow her baby to be born normally
and
AK> healthy. The state has taken her to court to force her to have the
AK> operation, but the courts have refused.
AK> My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this case?
Ask, and ye shall receive:
Chicago Tribune, 12/17/93
Caesarean case appeal is rejected
by Jan Crawford, Tribune Staff Writer
A complex legal battle over a Chicago woman's refusal
to undergo a Caesarean section, even though it could save
the life of her unborn child, essentially was settled
Thursday when the state's highest court refused to hear the
case.
The court declined to review a lower court's ruling
that the woman should not be forced to submit to surgery in
a case that pitted the rights of the woman, referred to in
court as "Mother Doe," against those of her fetus.
The 22-year-old Chicago woman, now in the 37th week of
her pregnancy, refused her doctors' advice to have the
surgery because she believes God intended her to deliver the
child naturally.
The woman's attorneys argued that the operation would
violate her constitutional rights to privacy and the free
exercise of her religious beliefs.
"The court's decision today respects the core
fundamental right of a person to refuse medical care because
of religious or personal convictions," said Colleen Connell,
an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, which
represented the woman. "A woman is not stripped of her
religious liberty or personal autonomy because she's
pregnant."
Cook County Public Guardian Patrick Murphy, the court-
appointed representative of the woman's fetus, asked the
high court to hear his appeal Wednesday. The Cook County
state's attorney's office initially was involved in seeking
a court order but decided not to appeal to the state Supreme
Court after it lost at the appellate level.
Murphy said Thursday afternoon that he would file a
petition with the U.S. Supreme Court asking it to hear the
case. He has 90 days to file the petition, but he
acknowledged future action would probably come too late.
"Obviously, I'm very disappointed," Murphy said of the
state Supreme Court's decision. "At least according to
positions that have been taken, our client won't be around
much longer. We hope those positions are wrong and the
fetus is born healthy and not retarded."
Doctors say the fetus is not receieving enough oxygen
from the placenta and will either die or be retarded unless
it is delivered by Caesarean section. Despite that
diagnosis, the mother has stressed her faith in God's
healing powers and refused doctors' advice to submit to the
operation.
Confronted with the woman's refusal, her doctor at St.
Joseph Hospital contacted the Cook County state's attorney
last week for advice. The state's attorney's office then
asked a trial judge to appoint it temporary custodian for
the mother in order to require her to undergo the operation.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 19 Dec 93 14:02:58
--------
EID:20fe 1b937040
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38e22dcb
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d10b738
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writ
es:
DB>Can you send me a copy of the mailing list? When Barry originally sent
it
DB>out, my address was still wrong, and he hasn't re-sent it.
AK> I noticed in the latest list he left off the "p0" -- hmmm. :-)
No, no, no. He put in that zi error. Now it's ok. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 16 Dec 93 04:54:00
--------
EID:4205 1b9026c0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Rick Moen @ 916/1008 saying to Charlie Wilson:
>> I thought it most entertaining that, in a message of such
>> rather (um) querulous tone, you said I was engaging in "a
>> childish game" in the exact same breath as you calling me
>> "Ricky".
>
> Only in _reply_, mon ami, only in reply.
RM@9>
RM@9> I'm trying to figure out what your point is. Possibly we're supposed
RM@9> to understand that you surrendered to an irresistable impulse to (um)
RM@9> post impassioned stuff in public, and are not to be held accountable
RM@9> for your actions -- sort of an echomail Twinkie defence. ;->
My point should be obvious: in this echo it appears you are entitled
to be as caustic as you wish with no recriminations whatsoever...but if
another person _dares_ to reply in kind, this person is attacked on all
fronts as being out of line. It may very well be that you and others
have been steady participants in this echo for years.....but I don't why
that should entitle you to posting in the manner you do. If everything
is kosher on your end, comments like the ones you make shouldn't even be
necessary.
> What name-calling?
RM@9>
RM@9> Oh, come on, now. Be serious.
I am. Besides the one-time use of the word "Ricky," where have I
done so? Quote it or admit it.
> We _both_ know for a fact (as does every person in this echo who read
> that reply) you carefully inserted your "credentials" in your first
> reply to me. Why can't you have the basic maturity to acknowledge it?
RM@9>
RM@9> Still name-calling. Ah, well. Send me a note when you get over it.
Where? Why is it you never answer my question? There's no way I'll
"get over it" until you do in a rational, adult manner. Are you
_seriously_ saying that my asking for mature replies is "name-calling?"
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Parthenogenesis
Date: 19 Dec 93 21:46:18
--------
EID:54a8 1b93adc0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA20AA
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did J.J. Hitt really say something to Kerry Penny, on 17 Dec 93?
JH> I myself dont have any problem in seeing "it"
JH> happening with humans.
My problem lies in that as a species, we are successful enough to not nee
d parthenogenesis. Bees and aphids, on the other hand, are not so long-lived
and have the burden of predation and competition. In their case, parthenogene
sis makes much more sense (evolutionarily speaking).
My contention is that parthenogenesis is just plain silly for humans. :)
JH> Or rather, I am not all that certain that an
JH> unfertilized egg cant go
JH> into a "run away" condition all by itself.
Neither am I. I suppose an unfertilized egg could become cancerous.
JH> What I have problems with is the idea that it could
JH> result in a
JH> healthy live birth. (In humans only about 40 percent
That's my thinking, too.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 20 Dec 93 18:08:14
--------
EID:2373 1b949100
KP> That's not in doubt. Queen bees alternate between
KP> parthenogenesis and fertilization, as do aphids. Many plants do, also.
KP> What is in doubt (by me, I can't say anyone else has
KP> a problem with this) is whether humans have the ability to
KP> do this.
Go ahead and widen your search criteria.
As far as I can tell, there's no evidence it has happened with any
mammal.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Mark Patterson @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 19 Dec 93 23:46:33
--------
EID:27a9 1b93bdc0
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2d153982
-=> Quoting Mark Patterson @ 916/1008 to Rick Moen <=-
-=> Quoting Sysop to Charlie Wilson <=-
Sy> I'd forgotten about that one. Poundstone tells about another one,
Sy> from Pink Floyd, where the voice congratulates you for finding the
Sy> secret message, and says you can pick up your prize care of Old Pink.
Sy> That one cracked me up.
MP@9>
MP@9> Another good one can be seen in the movie "Dream Descevers" About
the
MP@9> families in Nevada who sued Judas Priest over the claim that the
MP@9> backmasked "Do it, Do it" caused their children attempt suicide. At
MP@9> the trial, the atty for the family asked the lead singer if there
was
MP@9> anything backmasked on the album, the lead singer said "yeah." On
the
MP@9> cross examination by his attorney, the lead singer played the
MP@9> backmasked bit. The line was "I asked her for a peppermint. I asked
her
MP@9> to bring me one"
MP@9>
MP@9> Great movie, BTW, I highly recommend it.
Is this a made for TV movie, or something I can pick up at the video
store? I don't remember this being in general release at my local
bijou.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.96/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 20 Dec 93 21:13:00
--------
EID:4957 1b94a9a0
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/r+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG b114748e
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d11d0f0
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
On 17 Dec 93 10:32:48, you wrote to David Bloomberg about "Illinois Fundament
alist".
> I've heard news reports on a 22 year old pregnant woman in
> Illinois. The
> oxygen supply to the fetus is restricted and doctors say the
> fetus will be
> born dead or severely brain-damaged if the woman doesn't have a
> C-section
> soon (she's 37 weeks pregnant, if I recall). The woman is a born
> again
> Pentecostal fundamentalist and refuses the operation, preferring
> instead
> to wait for a miracle from God to allow her baby to be born
> normally and
> healthy. The state has taken her to court to force her to have
> the
> operation, but the courts have refused.
> My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this
> case?
I saw Pat Robertson holding forth on this case on his 700 Club. He declared
it
an unconscionable interference with the rights of the woman. Considering
that
the legal action is being pursued on behalf of the fetus, i find his opinion
deliciously ironic.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: All
Sub: SKEPTIC Echo guidelines
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:05:17
--------
EID:8d24 1b8b88a0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2d09fde6
====================================================================
SKEPTIC CONFERENCE GUIDELINES
====================================================================
This conference is for the discussion of fringe science, fringe medicine,
UFO's, psychic powers, water divining and other similar paranormal
phenomena whose veracity or, lack thereof, can be tested by observation
and experiment.
Basic Disclaimer:
This Echo operates under the premises espoused by various skeptical
associations worldwide and CSICOP but is in NO WAY connected to those
organizations. This Echo does not represent these organisations, nor
does it claim any link to those founders, writers and members of those
organizations, although some of them are regular posters.
The Moderator denies any and all responsibility for the postings of others,
his role is to keep discussion on topic and within the bounds of good taste
and common sense.
The opinions expressed in this Echo are those of the writers identified
in
the header of each message. No other responsibility is expressed or implied
for the content of the messages in this Echo. For this reason only real
names or handles conforming to certain guidelines may be used in the headers.
Handles may be used so long as they are not used to avoid responsibility
for
the attached posts, are normally used in other Echos, and where the actual
identity of the person under the handle is available upon request to the
Sysop of the posting system or the Moderator of this Echo.
Echo facts:
This Echo is Moderated by Jackson Harding from The Cockpit BBS,
3:800/857@fidonet in Adelaide, South Australia, Australia. Zone 3
distribution is handled from this point. The gateway for traffic to Zone
1
is Christopher Baker of 1:374/14@fidonet, Rights On!, in Titusville, Florida,
USA. The gateway for Zone 2 is Dieter Hummel of 2:244/2330@fidonet, MERLIN
Project SBBS in Frankfurt, Germany via 1:374/14.
Nodes in Zone 2 should direct enquiries to 2:244/2330
Nodes in Zone 3 should direct enquiries to 3:800/857.
This rules file is now posted fortnightly.
SKEPTIC is now on the Zone 1 backbone. Nodes there should direct enquiries
to
their usual backbone link in the first instance. Other enquiries, including
problems with obtaining a backbone link can be directed to 1:374/14 or
3:800/857
In Zone 3 the echo is carried on OZLINK, interested sysops should be able
to
obtain a feed from your nearest OZLINK system.
The moderator thanks Messrs Baker & Hummel for their help in carting this
echo
around the globe.
Echo Purpose:
1. Stimulate thought and inquiry concerning the claims of pseudo-science,
fringe science, fringe medicine et al and ways of testing the validity
of these claims.
2. To provide a forum where discussion of these claims, their proof, or
disproof can take place, both by skeptics and believers alike.
Echo Rules:
1. Only real names or handles conforming to the guidelines given earlier
may be used.
2. Discussion should be confined to the discussion of matters of interest
to skeptics. The imponderable and the untestable are worthy of academic
interest, but as they are not able to be tested by the skeptic they
should not be dwelled on at length.
3. Matters of religion will inevitably arise from time to time. As these
areas require faith, and as such are untestable they should be minor
issues only. Such discussion is best carried out in echoes such as
HOLYSMOKE, PHIL or one of the myriad of bible echos. Proselytising
is completely off-topic and will not be tolerated.
4. Personal attacks and flames will not be tolerated, if you must abuse
someone take it to NetMail.
5. This is not a philosophy echo, please note that the word skeptic has
several meanings, in this forum we are interested only in *testable*
claims of fringe science and medicine.
Jackson Harding,
Moderator, SKEPTIC
========================================================================
A skeptic is someone interested in the evidence for fringe-science
/medicine and paranormal _testable_ claims of fact, without regard
to his particular present opinions.
The emphasis on the (always entertaining) fringe prevents this from
becoming a boring symposium of professional scientists and engineers.
Uncertainty over what is the fringe and what is on either side is part
of what keeps it interesting. The emphasis on _testable claims of fact_
excludes the religion-bashers, however much they may protest to the
contrary.
---Rick Moen
"Skepticism is refusing to believe explanations for unusual or abnormal
phenomena that defy current scientific knowledge without being shown
proof of the existence of that phenomenon that conforms to the standards
of acceptable scientific evidence. It is not fence sitting or
prevarication.
--- Jackson Harding
"The authority of science is based on the power of the scientific method
and
resides in proof by experiment rather than by pronouncements of the learned
or
the vote of the people"
---Sergei Kapitza,
Professor of Physics, Moscow Institute for Physics and Technology
============================================================================
--- FMail 0.96ā+
* Origin: Automatically created at The Cockpit (3:800/857)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: All
Sub: Monthly Message Activity
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:10:19
--------
EID:f1db 1b8b8940
PATHS: Maintain and report PATHS a message takes within an echo.
Copyright (C) 1991-1992, Graham J Stair. All rights reserved.
Release 2a for DOS (10th January 1993, 21:21) {-? for help}
Message directory : skeptic\ (type *.MSG)
Checked on : Sat Dec 11 17:10:56 1993
Number of nodes : 136
Number of messages : 332
Earliest message : Wed Oct 27 13:18:00 1993
Latest message : Sat Dec 11 16:05:00 1993
Messages per week : 51.5 over 6.5 weeks
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³ ĆÄ104/1 (0 of 17)
³ ³ ĄÄ104/224 (0 of 17)
³ ³ ĄÄ1:104/514 (17 of 17)
³ ĆÄ12/12 (0 of 6)
³ ³ ĆÄ246/1 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ1:246/36 (1 of 1)
³ ³ ĆÄ167/90 (0 of 3)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ167/132 (0 of 3)
³ ³ ³ ĆÄ1:167/313 (1 of 1)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ1:167/113 (2 of 2)
³ ³ ĆÄ221/177 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ221/192 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ1:221/279 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ³ ĄÄ1:221/279.4 (1 of 1)
³ ³ ĄÄ140/1 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ĄÄ140/102 (0 of 1)
³ ³ ĄÄ1:140/110 (1 of 1)
³ ĄÄ106/116 (0 of 11)
³ ĄÄ106/449 (0 of 11)
³ ĄÄ106/15 (0 of 11)
³ ĄÄ106/2 (0 of 11)
³ ĄÄ1:106/113 (11 of 11)
ĄÄ1:152/20 (1 of 1)
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Average msg hops: 6.8 Maximum msg hops: 10
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Notes:
If a node does not appear in this report, it could mean...
a) It did not have a message entered from it.
b) It did not have a message pass through it to get to the top node.
c) Its mail processor doesn't update the ^APATH: kludge with its address.
If any feeds change, the report will be unreliable.
--- FMail 0.96ā+
* Origin: The Cockpit, Up front in aviation BBS's (3:800/857)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Dominic Tremblay
Sub: Mr. Mystery BBS
Date: 11 Dec 93 19:06:01
--------
EID:1da9 1b8b98c0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2cd7042c
REPLY: 1:249/132 52947988
Hello Dominic!
In a msg of Friday November 26 1993, Dominic Tremblay mumbled about Mr.
Myster
y BBS
to All:
DT> Just want to mention that Mr. Mystery BBS, the only BBS for
DT> magicians in Canada has join this echo. This BBS is for conjuror's and
DT> magicians. If you are skeptic about mysterious effect presented by
DT> magicians, you can chat with our members. This BBS is also interested
by
DT> all sort of unsolved mysteries such as telepathy, telekinesy, tarots
DT> cards, UFO, etc...
Interesting sounding board. Welcome to the madhouse :-)
TTFN,
Jackson
Moderator.
--- FMail 0.96ā+
* Origin: Monster seeks female companion. Loch Ness, Scotland (3:800/857)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Chris Guertin
Sub: New Guys...
Date: 11 Dec 93 19:07:02
--------
EID:bc8f 1b8b98e0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2cd70453
Hello Chris!
In a msg of Thursday November 25 1993, Chris Guertin mumbled about New Guys...
to All:
CG> Just thought I'd mention that The Fat Agnus BBS in North Bay, Ontario
CG> CANADA has linked into the conference.
Welcome.
TTFN,
Jackson
Moderator
--- FMail 0.96ā+
* Origin: Psychics meeting cancelled due to unforseen circumstance (3:800/857
)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Furphy
Date: 11 Dec 93 19:11:03
--------
EID:cb88 1b8b9960
MSGID: 3:800/857 2cd705bf
REPLY: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG a41276d1
Hello Dr!
Wednesday November 24 1993, Dr Pepper writes to All:
DP> Well i am an american, and could not think of the meaning for that word.
DP> But, unlike my fellow NetTriviaNuts, i not only own a copy of "Brewer's
DP> Dictionary of Phrase & Fable", i read it cover to cover years ago. And
i
DP> had a vague memory of having seen the word there. So i got it out and
DP> behold:
DP> "In World War I containers for sanitary purposes were suplied to
DP> australian military camps by the firm of Furphy and Co., whose name
DP> appeared on all their products. Hence a "furphy" was a latrine rumor
or a
DP> report of doubtful reliability."
DP> So there!
Touche! This is indeed the correct answer. Consider youself an honorary
Auss
ie for the day :-)
Bye for now,
Jackson
--- FMail 0.96ā+
* Origin: I'll only read your tea leaves if their Twinning's (3:800/857)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jim Atwell
To: Paul Feonic
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 06 Dec 93 00:44:00
--------
EID:930f 1b860580
MSGID: 3:800/851.9 2d02809e
Hello Paul,
03 Dec 93 13:54, Paul Feonic wrote to Jim Atwell:
PF> Speaking of UFO sightings...
PF> UFOlogists, Richard Coner,
Never heard of him. (?)
PF> believes that the Earth is on the
PF> interstellar auction block. Claimed decades ago by our first
PF> interstellar visitors, all sightings since have been for
PF> surveying, or showing prospective buyers around.
Chuckle...
PF> This also explains why our space programs are being interfered
PF> with by aliens. You all know how about the Alien base on the
PF> moon during Apollo? Not to mention the destruction of the Mars
PF> Observer. We're on the border-line in terms of the galactic
PF> council's definition of an intelligent species.
Squirm...
PF> It's all so clear to me now. Must go, Elvis wants to use the
PF> phone.
You know... you really shouldn't print stuff like that in a public echo.
It'll end up in Tim Good's next book! :-)
Bye for now,
Jim
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Jim's Point on Biz-Nice! BBS! - South Australia. (3:800/851.9)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/851 2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Victor Shuttleworth
To: CHRIS BURNER
Sub: Re: Ghosts
Date: 06 Dec 93 16:39:00
--------
EID:9e31 1b8684e0
G'day Chris,
CB> -=> Quoting Victor Shuttleworth to All <=-
CB> VS> Some years
CB> VS> later I became interested in the occult on seeing an advert for
the
CB> VS> Rosicrucians in a magazine. At the meetings I believed I saw the
red
CB> VS> and blue auras around people but afterwards concluded that we were
CB> VS> mentally manipulated as in hypnosis.
CB> 'You believed you saw'? I'm intregued here, you surely either saw
CB>something, or you didnt.
I can't see what intrigues you but don't let us get bogged down
in semantics. If I think I see a vehicle coming along the road as I am
about to cross I had better believe what I see even though it might be
only an illusion.
People see what they want to see. Many very religious
people see visions of the Virgin Mary.
That experience at the Ros. Crux. happened over 40 years ago and only
at the meetings. I have not been able to repeat it since hence my
skepticism.
CB> I see auras alot of the time, and was
CB>originally very sceptical about it, until I noticed that the
CB>'colours' seemed to a) Cling to objects,
CB> and b) Have some determination on the object or person dependant on
colour.
Nuff sed. Cheers. Victor.
ž OLX 2.1 TD ž You go Uruguay, I'll go mine.
--- EzyQwk V1.02
* Origin: Atropos (3:632/334)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 632/334 350 386 635/503 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209
PATH: 102/2 851
--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: Jim Atwell
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 03 Dec 93 13:54:07
--------
EID:15bf 1b836ec0
Speaking of UFO sightings...
UFOlogists, Richard Coner, believes that the Earth is on the
interstellar auction block. Claimed decades ago by our first
interstellar visitors, all sightings since have been for surveying, or
showing prospective buyers around.
(Or filming ads? "Nine new allotments available, including one lovely
split level fixer-upper with some low level on-site power and
manufacturing facilities, plenty of mineral wealth and cheap labour
available. Call Zork Fission. 'Sirius Real Estate -- Where all
offers are taken Siriusly' ")
"The fact (What fact? - Nix) that aliens are visiting Earth proves
we've got something they want (Cows bums? - Nix)," he says. "The claim
of the first visitors would entitle them to use the planet as they
wished.
"And since they haven't made contact or established a colony,
they're probably trying to sell it."
Extending this theory, I'd say that the major governments of the
world have knowledge of the alien sale and the international trends
toward peace and cooperation (Such as the fall of communism in Russia,
the Israel/PLO peace agreement, etc) are to make us seem peaceful and
cooperative so the buyer enslaves us rather than wipes us out. (You
didn't think it was all humanitarian, did you?)
This also explains why our space programs are being interfered with
by aliens. You all know how about the Alien base on the moon during
Apollo? Not to mention the destruction of the Mars Observer. We're
on the border-line in terms of the galactic council's definition of an
intelligent species.
By making our space program less effective, thus making governments
spend less to avoid directly military action, the aliens will get a
sale before we've achieved a permanent space presence and the galactic
council decrees we are an intelligent planet.
It's all so clear to me now. Must go, Elvis wants to use the phone.
Nix.
... Quick, here comes a UFO, everyone try to look useful.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
* Origin: The Phone Box BBS ! - [Line 1] - Adelaide OZ! (3:800/854.0)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: David Brown
Sub: Re: Lotteries
Date: 03 Dec 93 13:58:44
--------
EID:8ad8 1b836f40
DB> But why shouldn't Dan have a "better chance of winning
DB> something" if he buys 299 more tickets after buying his first
DB> one?
He will have a better chance of winning the major prize if he buys
300 tickets in the one competition. However the overall odds are
still _very_ much against him winning even a minor prize. It is
illogical for anyone to play a game where the odds of winning are less
than even.
If he spreads his 300 tickets over 300 draws, the odds do increase
slightly to that of a single draw. But the difference is negligible
(Probably beyond the round-up error of the average calculator.)
(Also if you were going to buy 300 tickets (Assuming a 6/36 or 6/45
type lotto game) then you should do it on a low prize game. That
would increase your odds of a minor prize, if won, being greater than
your investment. Look at the payouts on the bigger games, since more
people are attracted by the prize, more pick the winning numbers, thus
individual payouts are stupidly low.)
DB> (1) If he never bets (buys tickets) at all, the probability of
DB> winning something is infinitely small, or zero. If he does
DB> bet, the probability is absurdly low BUT NEVERTHELESS NOT
DB> ZERO.
True as far as it goes. But if we begin with a given amount of
money to play with, he gambles and I save. I have a probability of 1
of having more than $0. His probability of winning anything is very
very low.
But the probability of him winning more money than I have saved is
staggeringly low. Therefore I gamble, with the odds stacked
enormously in my favour, that I am better off not playing lotto.
Nix.
... There's A Sucker Born Every 3.85 Seconds. It's True. _Trust_me_.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
* Origin: The Phone Box BBS ! - [Line 1] - Adelaide OZ! (3:800/854.0)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: Chris Burner
Sub: Re: Ghosts
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:39:46
--------
EID:3efa 1b8884e0
VS>> At the meetings I believed I saw the red and blue auras around people
CB> 'You believed you saw'? I'm intrigued here, you surely either
CB> saw something, or you didnt.
You can look at something without perceiving it, and you can
perceive something that you didn't see. But we normally need to do
both together to perceive the outside world.
CB> I see auras alot of the time, and was originally very sceptical about
CB> it, until I noticed that the 'colours' seemed
CB> to a) Cling to objects, and b) Have some determination on the object
or
CB> person dependant on colour.
Fancy making some money? James Randi has a standing offer of
$100,000 to any psychic who demonstrates his/her powers in a mutually
agreed experiment. For aura-seers, an experiment he's agreed to before
is to allow you to pick ten people who have auras which extend above a
partition. A random number of those ten are placed at random places
behind ten partitions. You simply say which partitions have people
behind them. You don't even have to identify the people by their
auras.
The Bay Area Skeptics in the US also have a $10,000 challenge, and a
US poster here has offered to put up $1000 of his own money in the
past and may do so again. Dick Smith has once offered $10,000 to
dowsers and take you up too. The Australian skeptics society may also
have an on-going challenge.
So there's $122,000 or more waiting for you to pick up once you show
your abilities.
And of course, as the only scientifically demonstrated psychic in
the world, you will command any fee for talk shows, books, speeches,
plus get paid trips to anywhere in the world. Not to mention the
millions of followers from around the world who will hang on your
every word, and the beautiful women who will want to have sex with
you. :-)
So... put up or shut up.
CB> no proof of this, per se, I believe that it is connected with the
CB> subtle magnetics of the human body, and the pituitary or some other
CB> gland, of which we are not entirely sure of the functioning.
Huh? Pituitary glands control things like growth and body
metabolism. That's been known for ages.
VS>> One thing that still puzzles me from those meetings is thought
VS>> transmission. Has anyone else had any experience of this?
CB> Yes, lots of times.
Wow, telepathy too. You are gonna make an absolute fortune when you
go public with all these powers.
CB> P.S. I have no desire to get told by people bluntly that what I say
CB> is total crap,
Not if you can demonstrate it. "Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof." We invite you to make your claims, but you must
provide evidence or we tell you to sod off. Most here are eager to
discover the existence of something outside the known scientific
world, and would be thrilled to bits to think we played a part in its
discovery.
Nix.
... One Experiment Is Worth A Thousand Expert Opinions.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
* Origin: The Phone Box BBS ! - [Line 1] - Adelaide OZ! (3:800/854.0)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: Chris Burner
Sub: Holographic Interconnectivity
Date: 01 Dec 93 22:25:26
--------
EID:e9c4 1b81b320
MSGID: 3:632/515 2cfd638e
Hello Chris!
30 Nov 93 02:19, Chris Burner wrote to VICTOR SHUTTLEWORTH:
VS>> One thing that still puzzles me
VS>> from those meetings is thought transmission. I have had a friendship
VS>> with a lady for 45 years and although we can be miles apart I seem
VS>> to be able to convey messages to her. Has anyone else had any
VS>> experience of this? Victor.
CB> Yes, lots of times. It seems to be dependant on a) how 'In tune'
CB> you are to the person for you techy types> and how likely you are to actually believe what
CB> your brain is saying to you. If a message, or feeling of some kind
CB> comes through, and the person automatically discounts the feeling can be done on a subconcious level, IMHO> then they are not going to
get
CB> the impression.
One of the problems I have found with _some_ Skeptics is that they sub
conciously intend to disprove, even before they begin. Obviously, this would
m
ake it very difficult for them to understand, let alone experience. All
the sa
me, I dont intend to convert anyone to my way of thinking. If your happy
as yo
u are, please stay that way.
Back to the subject! I can totally agree with your above paragraph. By
saying in tune, you are refering to the cyclic nature of the human energy
fie
ld, are you not? Being in tune also plays an important part in experimental
ev
idence, since you cant fit a square block into a round hole, can you?
CB> Another thing is that from my experience, 'psychic' stuff usually
CB> involves alot of slieght of mind, in the sense that your belief that
it
CB> will not work, can often make you mind be perfectly obliging.
I have noticed that "will" if more then just in the brain. This sugges
ts to me, that the mind is something quite different from the brain. In
other
words, to me, the mind is the body as a whole, where the brain is just an
orga
n.
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
* Origin: To see the point, is to miss it completely (3:632/515)
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PATH: 632/515 998 635/503 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2
PATH: 102/851
--------
From: Jim Atwell
To: James Bryant
Sub: Subliminal advertising
Date: 13 Dec 93 06:11:02
--------
EID:ca33 1b8d3160
MSGID: 3:800/851.9 2d0c0843
REPLY: 1:128/158 85F82B47
Hello James,
24 Nov 93 18:51, James Bryant wrote to Steve Quarrella:
JB> I read with interest your letter on subliminal advertising.
JB> What I have found is that most subliminal advertising is
JB> reserved for girlie mags.
JB> Looking closely at large, one color areas, words can be seen
JB> that I can't reproduce here. I have shown this to others, and
JB> they have also seen what I have.
Do you have any references handy? Issues and publication names? I would
be ver
y
interested to follow this up for my own personal interest.
Thanks,
Jim
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Jim's Point on Biz-Nice! BBS! - South Australia. (3:800/851.9)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/851 2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jim Atwell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 13 Dec 93 06:32:03
--------
EID:fd32 1b8d3400
MSGID: 3:800/851.9 2d0c0d3a
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 37d014a9
29 Nov 93 19:04, David Bloomberg wrote to Jim Atwell:
JA>> Not -all- the UFOlogical community looks at the "Aurora" in
JA>> that light.
DB> That's why I said "many" not "all".
Yeah, not arguing with you, just felt I should make the point. :-)
(I really wish I could argue with you, but unfortunately there ARE a lot
of nu
ts in "UFOlogy".)
bfn,
Jim
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Jim's Point on Biz-Nice! BBS! - South Australia. (3:800/851.9)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/851 2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jim Atwell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 13 Dec 93 07:28:00
--------
EID:c4a0 1b8d3b80
MSGID: 3:800/851.9 2d0c19c3
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 37d014a9
29 Nov 93 19:04, David Bloomberg wrote to Jim Atwell:
JA>> Not -all- the UFOlogical community looks at the "Aurora" in
JA>> that light.
DB> That's why I said "many" not "all".
Yeah, not arguing with you, just felt I should make the point. :-)
(I really wish I could argue with you, but unfortunately there ARE a lot
of nu
ts in "UFOlogy".)
bfn,
Jim
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: UFO RESEARCH (SA) INC. - South Australia. (3:800/851.9)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 800/851 2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hong Ooi
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Ark Hoax Continues
Date: 14 Dec 93 08:31:45
--------
EID:0a7d 1b8e43e0
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to All <=-
FR> LONG BEACH MAN ADMITS ARK HOAX
FR> ...
We've got our own Ark-chasers here in Australia, too. The most recent was
that professor-type bloke who went to Turkey and got himself and a friend
captured by Kurdish guerillas. Unfortunately, this made him a celebrity
and the media lapped up his stories when he got released.
This was back in 1992 sometime. Maybe it would have been on the American
news as well? Anyone remember?
Apparently the Kurds get lots of loopy Westerners tramping all over Mt
Ararat looking for bits of the Ark. It's great for them; a constant source
of Western currency.
See ya...
Hong
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Bush Telegraph <> Sydney <> Australia (3:711/454.0)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 752 850 851 852 890 943 1006 103/0 128/1 147/7 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/207 208 209 720 270/101 290/627 300/1 396/1 640/75
PATH: 711/454 54/54 50/99 635/503 800/2 857 374/14 98 1 3615/50 396/1
PATH: 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: All
Sub: SKEPTIC Echo guidelines
Date: 17 Dec 93 00:06:08
--------
EID:8d24 1b9100c0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2d10f811
====================================================================
SKEPTIC CONFERENCE GUIDELINES
====================================================================
This conference is for the discussion of fringe science, fringe medicine,
UFO's, psychic powers, water divining and other similar paranormal
phenomena whose veracity or, lack thereof, can be tested by observation
and experiment.
Basic Disclaimer:
This Echo operates under the premises espoused by various skeptical
associations worldwide and CSICOP but is in NO WAY connected to those
organizations. This Echo does not represent these organisations, nor
does it claim any link to those founders, writers and members of those
organizations, although some of them are regular posters.
The Moderator denies any and all responsibility for the postings of others,
his role is to keep discussion on topic and within the bounds of good taste
and common sense.
The opinions expressed in this Echo are those of the writers identified
in
the header of each message. No other responsibility is expressed or implied
for the content of the messages in this Echo. For this reason only real
names or handles conforming to certain guidelines may be used in the headers.
Handles may be used so long as they are not used to avoid responsibility
for
the attached posts, are normally used in other Echos, and where the actual
identity of the person under the handle is available upon request to the
Sysop of the posting system or the Moderator of this Echo.
Echo facts:
This Echo is Moderated by Jackson Harding from The Cockpit BBS,
3:800/857@fidonet in Adelaide, South Australia, Australia. Zone 3
distribution is handled from this point. The gateway for traffic to Zone
1
is Christopher Baker of 1:374/14@fidonet, Rights On!, in Titusville, Florida,
USA. The gateway for Zone 2 is Dieter Hummel of 2:244/2330@fidonet, MERLIN
Project SBBS in Frankfurt, Germany via 1:374/14.
Nodes in Zone 2 should direct enquiries to 2:244/2330
Nodes in Zone 3 should direct enquiries to 3:800/857.
This rules file is now posted fortnightly.
SKEPTIC is now on the Zone 1 backbone. Nodes there should direct enquiries
to
their usual backbone link in the first instance. Other enquiries, including
problems with obtaining a backbone link can be directed to 1:374/14 or
3:800/857
In Zone 3 the echo is carried on OZLINK, interested sysops should be able
to
obtain a feed from your nearest OZLINK system.
The moderator thanks Messrs Baker & Hummel for their help in carting this
echo
around the globe.
Echo Purpose:
1. Stimulate thought and inquiry concerning the claims of pseudo-science,
fringe science, fringe medicine et al and ways of testing the validity
of these claims.
2. To provide a forum where discussion of these claims, their proof, or
disproof can take place, both by skeptics and believers alike.
Echo Rules:
1. Only real names or handles conforming to the guidelines given earlier
may be used.
2. Discussion should be confined to the discussion of matters of interest
to skeptics. The imponderable and the untestable are worthy of academic
interest, but as they are not able to be tested by the skeptic they
should not be dwelled on at length.
3. Matters of religion will inevitably arise from time to time. As these
areas require faith, and as such are untestable they should be minor
issues only. Such discussion is best carried out in echoes such as
HOLYSMOKE, PHIL or one of the myriad of bible echos. Proselytising
is completely off-topic and will not be tolerated.
4. Personal attacks and flames will not be tolerated, if you must abuse
someone take it to NetMail.
5. This is not a philosophy echo, please note that the word skeptic has
several meanings, in this forum we are interested only in *testable*
claims of fringe science and medicine.
Jackson Harding,
Moderator, SKEPTIC
========================================================================
A skeptic is someone interested in the evidence for fringe-science
/medicine and paranormal _testable_ claims of fact, without regard
to his particular present opinions.
The emphasis on the (always entertaining) fringe prevents this from
becoming a boring symposium of professional scientists and engineers.
Uncertainty over what is the fringe and what is on either side is part
of what keeps it interesting. The emphasis on _testable claims of fact_
excludes the religion-bashers, however much they may protest to the
contrary.
---Rick Moen
"Skepticism is refusing to believe explanations for unusual or abnormal
phenomena that defy current scientific knowledge without being shown
proof of the existence of that phenomenon that conforms to the standards
of acceptable scientific evidence. It is not fence sitting or
prevarication.
--- Jackson Harding
"The authority of science is based on the power of the scientific method
and
resides in proof by experiment rather than by pronouncements of the learned
or
the vote of the people"
---Sergei Kapitza,
Professor of Physics, Moscow Institute for Physics and Technology
============================================================================
--- FMail 0.96ā+
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--------
From: John Molloy
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: WHACKOS IN RUSSIA
Date: 14 Dec 93 15:04:00
--------
EID:624d 1b8e7880
On 11-19-93 21:55 Fredric Rice Spake thusly to David Bloomberg
> A woman in Russia claims to be the reincarnation of BOTH Jesus and
> Virgin Mary. She is leading a cult which is clashing with police, etc.
> I just want to know how she can be a reincarnation of BOTH...
FR> That _is_ possible. I seem to recall reading that a womans egg could
FR> start to divide without sperm and that she may give birth yet the
FR> offspring always dies very shortly after birth and is always female.
FR> This Jesus mythos, patterned after Isis the fertility goddess could
FR> easilly be female.
Hi Fredric,
No, it's NOT possible as an ovum has only HALF the necessary number of
chromosomes. Births as you mention can happen when SOME chromosomes
are missing or when there are extras. Anyway re-incarnation beleifs
only involve the "spirit".
Regards
John
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TPCB V0.2a
* Origin: Prophet BBS, Western Sydney Australia (3:54/54)
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: A Reversal Of Gravity
Date: 13 Dec 93 20:11:02
--------
EID:7387 1b8da160
MSGID: 3:711/934.0 2d0ccc56
SZ> Here in Perth, WA, about 3 years ago, - this was on TV - 2 guys said
SZ> they had a perpetual motion machine. It looked like something that
SZ> would've been built in the 19th century. The unfinished device was
SZ> displayed outside their garage/workshop, and resembled a large wooden
SZ> disc, with cutouts, counterweights and other protrusions.
SZ> The two men looked like a very unlikely team from which concise
SZ> research and engineering could develop into a solid basis for a
SZ> flimsy concept.
No doubt some would have said that about Wilbur and Orville, if it had
be possible to show them on TV at the time of their tinkering |-)
I'm not saying that says anything useful about the potential for
perpetual motion machines, but clearly whether they are wearing white
coats and have an immaculate lab is a very small part of whats important.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: Ten Minute Limit (3:711/934)
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--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
Sub: Japanese Magnetic circle
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:59:10
--------
EID:e202 1b86b760
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d03fff8
REPLY: 8:916/1008 8127d31b
Hello Donald!
29 Nov 93 10:27, Donald Wilton @ 916/1008 wrote to All:
DW@9> I would like to know what if any, research has taken place to credit
or
DW@9> discredit the japanese scientist who claimed that the crop circles
coul
d
DW@9> have been formed by ball lightning. I remember that he showed that
bal
l
DW@9> lightning, when artificially generated, created patterns in iron
DW@9> filings that were very similar to those that appear in crop circles.
How the hell could all their elaborate equipment miss someone placing
a wooden cross in the circle. It would have taken a rather large throw,
would
it not. Hmm...:)
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Luke Enriquez
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Demon Barney
Date: 06 Dec 93 23:02:11
--------
EID:b4f5 1b86b840
MSGID: 3:632/515 2d04006a
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 37d9ac9c
Hello David!
30 Nov 93 12:28, David Bloomberg wrote to All:
DB> Barney the dinosaur, preschoolers' favorite foam-rubber prehistoric
DB> creature, has been declared a "New Age demon" by a right-wing radio
DB> evangelist. "Straight out of the New Age and the world of demons and
DB> devils," Rev. Joseph Chambers says of the drippy lizard. "America is
DB> under seige from the powers of darkness," Chambers says, adding: "Barney
DB> is teaching kids that we must accept everyone as they are--whether they'r
e
DB> homosexuals or lesbians." Or radio evangelists, for that matter. Also
DB> we're told that if you play Barney's "I love you, you love me" theme
DB> backwards, it sounds like a garage-band version of "Louie, Louie."
Maybe we will see Motorhead publish a sound track for it.
Regards,
Luke
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: All
Sub: Balls.
Date: 17 Dec 93 22:37:47
--------
EID:5928 1b91b4a0
Fred J. Robins, of Paraparaumu, Wellington, NZ, claims to have been buzzed
by a "Transparent blue sphere" which floated around his bulldozer. "The
thing was blue, transparent and perfectly spherical - about the size of
a
tennis ball.
"At first I thought it might be a child's soap bubble, but then I realised
the nearest house had to be miles away.
"The ball moved toward my machine and ended up over the twin exhaust
pipes.
"The fierce exhaust stream immediately shot the object into the air. And
that's when I became certain it was intelligently guided.
"It turned right around (Turned? How would you know? - Nix) and started
circling my bulldozer - this time keeping well away from the pipes. I just
sat there with a knot in my stomach - and the uneasy feeling I was being
watched.
"Then, without warning, the ball shot away into the sky and I lost sight
of it." [...]
"But I definitely saw it emerge unscathed from the exhaust blast's extreme
heat. There was something sinister about that sphere. It really put the
frighteners on me." (Noticeable lack of descriptions about trying to touch,
burst, or catch it. Ten bucks says it was a reflection of his watch on
the
glass - Nix :-)
Accompanying photo of a glass marble (IMO) with a caption "A small blue
sphere, similar to the ball Fred Robins describes, was recently photographed
by a schoolboy in Tasmania."
[...]
British council worker Bob Taylor made headlines with his claim that two
tiny, spiked spheres tugged violently at his trousers and subsequently
abducted him. (I shwear, honey, that'sh why I'm sho late home from
work - Niksh.)
"I was inspecting a young plantation in Livingston, England, when I came
across a grey, domed object floating in the clearing. (I apologised and
wiped it off - Nix.) It was about six metres (20' - Nix) in diameter and
its surface texture seemed to change periodically. (From what? To what?
- Nix.)
"As my dog and I stood staring at the object, (No attempt to examine it,
hasn't _anyone_ got a shred of curiosity these days? - Nix) two tiny,
spike-covered spheres dropped from it to the ground and rolled towards us.
(Dropped from where? Were they attached to the outside of the dome, if so
were there more? From a hole, did it pre-exist or specially open, what
shape or structural features, could you see anything inside the hole? Why
don't _I_ get to see these damn things. Then you'd see a _decent_ UFO
report - Nix)
"While my dog cringed and growled, (I'd get a new dog - Nix) the spheres
attached themselves to my trousers (Does this get x-rated? - Nix) and began
dragging me toward the craft. (Where a dozen huge bosomed alien women spent
three days forcing me to have sex... I've had this fantasy too - Nix) I
was
overcome by an acrid, choking smell - then lost consciousness. (Oh, errr,
forget what I said about the alien women - Nix.)
"When I woke, the objects had vanished and my dog was running around me,
barking. I crawled back to the truck and drove home. When I arrived I
had
a thumping headache and a terrible thirst - and my trousers were in shreds."
(Domes, spikes, waking in the middle of nowhere, headache, ruined clothes...
I've been to parties like that - Nix.)
"Next day I went back to find that authorities has fenced the area off.
(I've been to parties like that, too - Nix) But we (We? - Nix) could see
from the outside that the grass was totally flattened." (I thought the dome
was floating? Why didn't you mention this flattened grass before? - Nix.)
Nix.
... Flying Saucers Are Real! The Air Force Doesn't Exist.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
* Origin: The Phone Box BBS ! - [Line 2] - Adelaide OZ! (3:800/855.0)
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--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: All
Sub: Winnie.
Date: 17 Dec 93 20:22:35
--------
EID:04ea 1b91a2c0
Reading here about parapsychologist Raymond Wynn-Jones' claims about
Winston Churchill's supposed psychic powers. In this one, he was supposedly
riding in an open car and told his driver to stop the car and run. A minute
or two later a bomb hit and shrapnel slashed through the car.
However, on a TV program about Winnie's powers, they say he refused to sit
on the usual side of the government (Closed) car for some reason. When
a
bomb struck nearby while they were driving, the car nearly flipped but his
extra weight on that side kept it down.
Does anyone know the "Official" story? If not, should we put all such
stories down to urban myth since they vary so much?
Nix.
... Merry Winter Solstice Festival To One And All.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
* Origin: The Phone Box BBS ! - [Line 2] - Adelaide OZ! (3:800/855.0)
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--------
From: Tim Epstein
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Subliminal advertising
Date: 14 Dec 93 13:17:00
--------
EID:0983 1b8e6a20
MSGID: 3:635/526.2 ae0d04df
> I'd like to see, sometime, a list of solid
> examples of the backwards
> voice stuff on LP's I only know of two examples,
> personally, where the
> speech was reversed and neither one had diddly-squat
> to do with anything
> "evil." Of course nowadays, it's a helluva lot harder
> to hand-turn a CD backwards! :)
If your PC has a soundcard, its easy. Run a line from the RCA out jacks
of you
r CD player to the line in on your sound card. Assuming you have MS-Windows
(w
ho doesn't these days), simply record any section of your CD using sound
recor
der, and click on the reverse option when playing back with media player.
I tried this with some Beatles CDs, and I'm yet to hear anything about Paul
be
ing dead...
Regards,
Tim
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Ghost of Sunrise (3:635/526.2)
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--------
From: Scott Waring
To: Trevor Ridge
Sub: thanks
Date: 17 Dec 93 20:37:00
--------
EID:241c 1b91a4a0
Well thanks for your help ,as you probably know my main interest is with
astro
net mainly energy,gravity,occult(wicca,cabala) I used the canberra bbs untill
they closed downn and then sydney (sometimes). All the best for xmas and
new y
ear. regards ASW
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: CLAYTON'S BBS - 3:636/500 (note change!!) 61-3-328-4927 (3:636/500
)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 23 Dec 93 21:43:42
--------
EID:3af0 1b97ad75
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b295525e
REPLY: 1:105/95.0 d130c8f4
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that
FR> The People lived on three other planets prior to coming here
FR> in the form of First Man and First Woman (in that order.)
bb> Lots of American aboriginal peoples have the same kind of story.
So I've found. I was surprised that the belief is so common.
bb> The Osage say that their ancestors came from the northern stars,
bb> and that though they _look_ like other people, they're really
bb> very different.
Are the decendants mutations or was there some judgement passed down?
bb> (A few years back I was doing a research project on St. Louis
bb> in the 1810s, and read a bunch of folklore as part of that.)
bb> There were editor's notes to the effect that _most_ tribes have
bb> a similar sense of having come from somewhere else.
It's a good way to 'explain' ones origins.
bb> Sometimes I'm tempted to post that in alt.alien.visitors...
Would the participants within that forum consider it as evidence, I wonder?
---
* Origin: What the world needs is more exposed breasts (1:102/890)
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PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 23 Dec 93 21:47:24
--------
EID:2605 1b97adec
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b295c4bd
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d11d0f0
PID: FM 2.02
ak> I've heard news reports on a 22 year old pregnant woman in Illinois.
ak> My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this case?
* From : Shelby Sherman, 1:123/67 (14 Dec 93 07:32)
* To : All
* Subj : Fundies
What's wrong with this picture?
CHICAGO--Doctors are asking a court to order a cesarean section
against a pregnant woman's will to save her fetus from brain
damage or death. The woman is hoping for a miracle.
Doctors at St. Joseph Hospital in Chicago told the woman her 36
1/2 week fetus would likely die or be severely retarded unless
it was surgically removed because the placenta is not carrying
enough oxygen. A fetus's normal gestation period is 38 1/2 weeks,
according to the American Medical Association's Encyclopedia of
Medicine.
The 22 year-old woman refused, saying the surgery would be against
her religious beliefs. She and her husband are Pentecostals who
believe God will intervene and a miracle will occur, according
to court records.
--From The Commercial Appeal, Dec. 14, 1993.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
Sub: Santa Skepticism
Date: 23 Dec 93 21:52:07
--------
EID:7afe 1b97ae83
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b295c4be
REPLY: 8:916/1008 9227cd1b
PID: FM 2.02
sc> The lead reindeer will absorb over 14 quintillion
sc> joules per second of energy each causing them to
sc> burst into flames virtually instantaneously.
Some call it lunch.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Paul Feonic
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 23 Dec 93 22:13:19
--------
EID:09b0 1b97b1a9
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b295c4c1
PID: FM 2.02
pf> (Or filming ads? "Nine new allotments available, including one lovely
pf> split level fixer-upper with some low level on-site power and
pf> manufacturing facilities, plenty of mineral wealth and cheap labour
pf> available. Call Zork Fission. 'Sirius Real Estate -- Where all
pf> offers are taken Siriusly' ")
Nurse? I think it's time for Paul's medication.
pf> "And since they haven't made contact or established a colony,
pf> they're probably trying to sell it."
That's reasonable.
pf> This also explains why our space programs are being interfered with
pf> by aliens. You all know how about the Alien base on the moon during
pf> Apollo?
I got that one. Apollo 13 was hit with a LASER because part of the mission
pr
ofile was to detonate a nuclear device on the Earths moons' surface to take
so
undings after the astro-nuts left, leaving behind sounding equipment.
The target of the alien LASER was specifically chosen and performed just
right
so that the three on board would suffer little damage yet be unable to carry
out their mission -- which would have proven that the base existed. Alternate
theories are that it would have proven that the moon is a spaceship.
I've heard further claims that the LEM decent engine assembly was released
to
impact the surface and that soundings were taken by soft-landed hardware
which
confirmed the "spaceship moon" 'theory.'
pf> Not to mention the destruction of the Mars Observer.
It had been judged guilty!
pf> Must go, Elvis wants to use the phone.
Nurse? Best bring the net while you're at it.
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 24 Dec 93 10:44:28
--------
EID:6902 1b98558e
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b297a90e
REPLY: 3:632/515 2cfd638e
PID: FM 2.02
CB> Yes, lots of times. It seems to be dependant on a) how 'In tune'
CB> you are to the person for you techy types>
All rather well tested and unevidenced, of course. Which is something of
a pi
ty, in my opinion, as telepathy is such a wonderful make-believe.
le> One of the problems I have found with _some_ Skeptics is that
le> they subconciously intend to disprove, even before they begin.
Imagine that. Someone who adopts scientific method to test for validity.
You do realize, I hope, Luke, that falsification is a major aspect of scientif
ic method, right? If a claimant makes predictions about his or her claim
and
those predictions prove false, the claimant is either badly mistaken or
is in
need of some new tests.
le> Obviously, this would make it very difficult
le> for them to understand, let alone experience.
If one is interested in understanding telepathy, one reviews psychological
tex
ts about the human mind and the origins of such wishful thinking. If there
ar
e claimants who actually believe, there are also organizations which test
such
claimants and offer some rather large amounts of cash for success.
As it is, few are willing to be tested. I need not wonder why. }:-} Everyone
s money seems safe for the moment -- except for those who spending money
upon
the frauds and the truely-believers.
And as far as experiencing it, every person experiences what a few consider
is
telepathy. The better educated or the better informed merely recognize
what
it is, exactly, they've experienced and thoughts of telepathy never arise.
le> All the same, I dont intend to convert anyone to my way of thinking.
No 'conversion' is required. A demonstration of the claimed abilities under
s
cientific controls is all that is required and such evidence will be quite
eno
ugh to launch new and exciting vistas of scientific research.
Will you claim that scientists have never looked for telepathy? If you
will n
ot claim this, will you then claim that theyhave and _found_ it? If so,
I wou
ld be curious to acquire some information about the investigators and --
more
importantly -- a little knowledge about their credentials; if any.
le> Back to the subject! I can totally agree with your above
le> paragraph. By saying in tune, you are refering to the cyclic
le> nature of the human energy field, are you not?
The biochemical electric field produced by breaking down food (by anything
fro
m humans to germs) is not 'cyclic.' Nor is it not understood. It's often
mis
understood, of course.
A rotting apple produces a much stronger electromagnetic field than a human
br
ain produces outside of the skull. Recorded human patterns which are amplifie
d or played back at normal amplitude doesn't produce telepathy or anything
lik
e it -- and yet it is identicle enough to fool an EKG.
le> Being in tune also plays an important part in experimental
le> evidence, since you cant fit a square block into a round
le> hole, can you?
It's quite easilly accomplished when the round hole is big enough to accept
th
e square peg. Scientific method is wide enough to accept any _testable_
claim
. If the claim is not testable, it is unevidenced and so is false.
If you claim that the untestable and unevidenced doesn't dictate that the
clai
m is false, then I have a little story to tell you about an invisible pink
hip
po named Daisy who does Her Leather Clad Bitches' work for her.
Yet t
hat's a rather lengthy story yet, hopefully, you may realize that anyone
may c
laim anything they wish -- some will believe it because it's _fun_ to believe.
Telepathy and ESPs are fun to believe in yet have yet to be evidenced.
CB> Another thing is that from my experience, 'psychic' stuff usually
CB> involves alot of slieght of mind, in the sense that your belief that
it
CB> will not work, can often make you mind be perfectly obliging.
Interesting opinion. Hallucinations might well be considered "slighting"
of t
he mind and one hallucinates within ones experiences, hopes, and wishes.
It w
ould not be surprising that flying saucer believers see flying saucers when
th
ey hallucinate. It would not be surprising for religgious zealots to see
thei
r heros while hallucinating.
A pre-existing belief in telepathy _is_ required to experience it. Claims
of
"I was a disbeliever until it happened to me" are, quite simply, false.
The w
ishful thinking was in place prior to the event and the lack of being able
to
critically examine the instance led to the 'conversion.'
le> I have noticed that "will" if more then just in the brain.
What ever gave you this notion? It may seem that certain bits and pieces
of y
our body have a will of their own yet that's a belief which I thought long
dea
d.
le> This suggests to me, that the mind is something
le> quite different from the brain.
And yet if ones brain is removed, the mind goes with it.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jim Atwell
Sub: Groom Lake
Date: 24 Dec 93 00:05:54
--------
EID:2738 1b9800bb
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b297a90f
REPLY: 3:800/851.9 2d0c19c3
PID: FM 2.02
ja> (I really wish I could argue with you, but unfortunately
ja> there ARE a lot of nuts in "UFOlogy".)
I don't believe it! Nutters within the ranks of the flying saucer believers?
I have yet to see any indication of this. Yet I'm not being kind.
The problem of outrageous and irrational participants within the UFO investiga
tive organizations seems to detract a great deal from the honest inquiry
and t
ends to contrive an image that all believers in flying saucers are nuts.
It may be obvious that there _is_ a UFO phenomena to investigate. Yet such
an
investigation must begin and continue, I would assert, with human psychology
and the inquiry into the nature of the body which houses the mind.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Hong Ooi
Sub: Ark Hoax Continues
Date: 24 Dec 93 10:07:16
--------
EID:1e24 1b9850e8
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b309e2b4
PID: FM 2.02
FR> LONG BEACH MAN ADMITS ARK HOAX
ho> We've got our own Ark-chasers here in Australia, too.
Yeah? We've _still_ got people looking for The Fountain of Youth in Florida.
And it's not in Disneyworld. I, myself, have searched for Amazon Women
of the
Avacado Jungle (for copulative reasons which should be obvious) so I shouldn'
t smile and nod my head knowingly too often when I see lArkers. }:-}
ho> The most recent was that professor-type bloke who went to
ho> Turkey and got himself and a friend captured by Kurdish guerillas.
ho> Unfortunately, this made him a celebrity and the media lapped
ho> up his stories when he got released.
Just lovely. Being captured was the best thing that could have happened
to he
and his friend. Religious zealotry seems to feed upon attention and upon
the
martyr complex. So I take it he and his friend are going to write a few
book
s? Mayhaps a movie about how the Kurds took away all of this guys evidence
an
d would kill him if he came back?
ho> This was back in 1992 sometime. Maybe it would have been
ho> on the American news as well? Anyone remember?
I missed it entirely. CBS may show such things as worthy of the news yet I never saw any of it.
ho> Apparently the Kurds get lots of loopy Westerners tramping
ho> all over Mt Ararat looking for bits of the Ark. It's great
ho> for them; a constant source of Western currency.
There do seem to be enought loons to fill all of the spots of mythological
hap
penings. There are quite a few "Reversed gravity hill! Scientists are
baffle
d!" places here in Holland and many more in the United States. Yet that's
all
rather mundane in light of people looking at bits and pieces of a mythologica
l boat.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Molloy
Sub: WHACKOS IN RUSSIA
Date: 24 Dec 93 10:12:04
--------
EID:d2f3 1b985182
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b309e2b5
PID: FM 2.02
>> A woman in Russia claims to be the reincarnation of BOTH Jesus and
>> Virgin Mary. She is leading a cult which is clashing with police, etc.
>> I just want to know how she can be a reincarnation of BOTH...
FR> That _is_ possible. I seem to recall reading that a womans egg could
FR> start to divide without sperm and that she may give birth yet the
FR> offspring always dies very shortly after birth and is always female.
jm> Hi Fredric,
Greetings!
jm> No, it's NOT possible as an ovum has only
jm> HALF the necessary number of chromosomes.
So I've been in the various comments by participants within this forum.
Just
to judge on the rather bad suggestion I made that such things are possible
amo
ng mamals, I should have kept my mouth shut.
jm> Anyway re-incarnation beleifs only involve the "spirit".
In a different body which could be either male or female. And isn't it
intere
sting that someone would claim to be a myth reincarnate? I wonder what
would
happen to me were I to claim that I was actually Wonder Woman reincarnated
as
a computer programmer. }:-}
jm> ... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
And loose the science grant? _Fake_ the data you want.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Mutated
Date: 24 Dec 93 15:02:07
--------
EID:2f0c 1b987843
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b30e6b4f
PID: FM 2.02
We have an unusual fundie in the Abomination Echo. He's almost Lemarkian
as h
is generalized and vague creationist claims include the tanning of white
skin
as a 'mutation.'
Most white people can get seriously mutated by just
5 hours of constant direct sunlight. - James Conwell
---
* Origin: What the world needs is more exposed breasts (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: This should prove interesting
Date: 28 Dec 93 09:53:46
--------
EID:4b6f 1b9c4eb7
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b509e034
PID: FM 2.02
Oh, by the way, the State of Illinois will start granting licenses
to naprapaths in 1994. I wonder how they will determine who should
be authorized to move these strange energies through people's bodies.
This should be interesting.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Postal cards
Date: 30 Dec 93 09:21:48
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b6083cd3
PID: FM 2.02
If anyone is interested in a postal card from Holland, direct your mailing
address to me in network mail and I'll drop a card in the post for you.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 31 Dec 93 08:29:57
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b6878fef
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Rick.
As I recall, BASIS carried a report on the origins of the H. P. Lovecraft
book
'Necronomicon' and listed three hoaxes which were derived from his fiction.
Can you point me towards the correct issue to download? There are claims
that
the book existed prior to the birth of HPL and I seem to recall that this
myt
h was a spin-off of one of the hoaxes.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Ed Hackett
To: Beverlee Broadlick
Sub: Skeptic
Date: 14 Dec 93 11:55:00
--------
EID:88b6 1b8e5ee0
On 12-0593, BEVERLEE BROADLICK wrote to TAD COOK:
BB> What Tad then, is an incredible claim? Is it something which a
BB> person can not believe because of his "Frame of Reference"?
How about: "A claim which seems to violate physical laws, and is not
verifiable?"
BB> In my lifetime, it would have been incredible to claim thatman might
BB> one day journey to the moon.
Incredible, yes. Impossible, no.
There IS a difference.
* Freddie 1.2.5 * The first full-featured QWK reader for the Mac.
--- DB 1.54/004376
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: My Life
Date: 14 Dec 93 19:27:00
--------
EID:c562 1b8e9b60
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0e13a7
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 36ac5471
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day David:
In a msg of , David Bloomberg writes to All:
DB> Does anybody know anything about the movie, "My Life"?
DB> Anyway, in one short commercial scene, he appears to have a faith healer
or
DB> similar guy "working" on him.
DB> Just wonderin' if anybody knows any more than that about it.
Apparently he dies.
True to life, it would seem.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 13 Dec 93 10:27:07
--------
EID:cd06 1b8d5360
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8e27ce1b
>> I thought it most entertaining that, in a message of such
>> rather (um) querulous tone, you said I was engaging in "a
>> childish game" in the exact same breath as you calling me
>> "Ricky".
>
> Only in _reply_, mon ami, only in reply.
I'm trying to figure out what your point is. Possibly we're supposed
to understand that you surrendered to an irresistable impulse to (um)
post impassioned stuff in public, and are not to be held accountable
for your actions -- sort of an echomail Twinkie defence. ;->
> What name-calling?
Oh, come on, now. Be serious.
> We _both_ know for a fact (as does every person in this echo who read
> that reply) you carefully inserted your "credentials" in your first
> reply to me. Why can't you have the basic maturity to acknowledge it?
Still name-calling. Ah, well. Send me a note when you get over it.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Strange Hum
Date: 13 Dec 93 08:02:00
--------
EID:a836 1b8d4040
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8e27cf1b
MS> You know, this reminds me of a story from some time back about
> San Francisco residents complaining of strange sounds at night.
> I believe they turned out to be the sounds of some weird kind of
> fish spawning in the bay. Anybody remember THAT?
RM>That's over across the Golden Gate, in Sausalito, Marin County. It
>is indeed some sort of fish, but I've forgotten which one.
I seem to recall that they were toadfish. They drive the live-aboard
boaters crazy for a while every year.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * recursion n: see recursion
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 15 Dec 93 12:19:04
--------
EID:346c 1b8f6260
SQ> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English was
SQ> spoken in Biblical times.
THUD!
I'm really going to have to turn HOLYSMOKES on, I cant miss this.
(But it's going to mean buying a high speed modem, I'm afraid)
JH> The answer is rather simple, the King James translators used a
JH> deliberately archic (and hence artificial) style.
SQ> Ralph would tell you that the answer is that Jesus and his contemporaries
SQ> spoke English. I kid you not.
I'll be damned... I had assumed, from what I had seen in this echo,
that someone was claiming that King James's contemporaries spoke in
the style of the KJV.
(Just goes to show what makeing assumptions will do for you...)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Parthenogenesis
Date: 14 Dec 93 19:00:16
--------
EID:54a8 1b8e9800
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11F9F9C0
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did J.J. Hitt really say something to Kerry Penny, on 12 Dec 93?
JH> The development of eggs without fertilization is
JH> known as parthenogenesis.
I remembered the term after being reminded of it yesterday by someone els
e here.
JH> Very common in rotifers and plant lice.
JH> Honneybees and related species do it to a limited
JH> extent. The male
Yes, it's a less costly way to reproduce than sex.
JH> Artificial parthenogenesis has been induced by
JH> subjecting eggs to
I guess I was wondering more if there was any information of spontaneous
parthenogenesis in female humans. Artificial creations are no fun.
JH> Even in humans a chromosomal surplus or defecit occurs
JH> in about 1 in every 10,000 births.
Yes, but we're talking half of the genetic material that would need to be
there for this to occur (in my limited knowledge of the early stages of
ovum
development). How is fertilization signalled without the sperm?
Call me skeptical about this, but I can't see it happening in humans. Ag
ain, though, I do not have complete knowledge of the field.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 14 Dec 93 07:06:45
--------
EID:ed1f 1b8e38c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 389c77dd
REPLY: 8:916/1008 8b27dd1b
In a msg to Don Kemerling on , Rick Moen @ 916/1008 of 8:916/100
8 writes:
RM@9> Kurtz should know better than to claim that "skepticism" as used in
RM@9> _Skeptical Inquirer_ is construed to be "an essential methodological
RM@9> rules guiding us to examine critically all claims to knowledge and
RM@9> affirmation of value". In fact, he _does_ know better. Skeptics
RM@9> have _never_ used the term in that sense. Only Kurtz in his perverse
RM@9> desire to co-mingle his two interests is irresponsible enough to make
RM@9> such a claim. I will specifically and emphatically disavow it.
Don't be so quick to attack Kurtz. Skepticism, as a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint,
is different from skepticism as most organized skeptics practice it. We
had a
speaker recently who discussed 17 different philosophical viewpoints, and
tha
t was one, and it wasn't too far from what the quote above dealt with.
Rememb
er that Kurtz IS a philosopher.
RM@9> I will particularly, specifically, disavow the statement about practica
l
RM@9> life, ethics, and politics. Skeptics have nothing at all to do with
RM@9> these subjects. Skepticism means critical inquiry into whether testabl
e
RM@9> claims on the fringes of science have merit. The _Skeptical Inquirer_
No, that's what skepticism means as we use it. It is actually closer to
the p
hilosophy of classical science.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Evolution/Creation Letter
Date: 14 Dec 93 22:18:12
--------
EID:c4ac 1b8eb240
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38a4d46b
A couple weeks ago (Nov. 24), Springfield, Illinois' local free weekly,
the Il
linois Times, printed a long cover story on the evolution/creation debate
as i
t pertains to schools, etc. It was quite well-written, and got the "thumbs-up
" from National Center for Science Education Exec. Director Dr. Eugenie
Scott
(I faxed her a copy). However, it's WAAAAY too long for me to type in,
and I
don't have access to a scanner.
Anyway, several letters have been printed in response to this article.
The fo
llowing is one that was printed two weeks after the article. I will post
an a
nti-evolution letter that was printed one week after the article as soon
as I
get a chance to type it in.
Understanding Miracles
To the editor:
Regarding your cover story on the evolution/creation
debate [see "The evolution solution?," _Illinois Times_,
November 24, 1993]: It seems that many people don't
understand the difference between the method of thought that
is science and the system of belief that is religion.
While some biblical stories or passages have at least
general scientific support, many have been flatly
contradicted by scientific research. And many more can be
neither contradicted nor confirmed through science.
Therein lies the distinction between science and
religion. Science is a process by which evidence is
collected and evaluated, and possible explanations are put
forth. This process is based on two assumptions: 1) that
the universe is orderly; and 2) that we can perceive and
understand that order. Religion, on the other hand, is an
appeal to authority, and requires only the belief that one
source contains the whole truth. One need look no farther
than at that one source, and all other information must be
interpreted to conform with the "truth" contained in it.
Creationism asserts that the entire universe was
created--as recounted in the Bible--in a preiod of seven
(presumably twenty-four-hour) days. The Bible gives no date
for the creation, but in the middle 1600s, a Christian
scholar, Archbishop Usher, used the "begats" in the Bible to
determine that the creation took place in 4004 B.C. Some--
but by no means all--Christian denominations accept this
interpretation as gospel. But where are the converging
lines of independent evidence and reasoning to support this
belief? There are none. This interpretation is based on
the belief that every passage in the Bible is 100 percent
accurate.
Why do so many people accept creationism and reject
evolution? First, it is easy to attribute the wonder and
complexity of our world to an all-powerful, all-knowing God
who simply created everything the way it appears today. It
requires no mental effort to observe, test, assess, and
propose alternative models because no alternative models are
required. In contrast, science requires a considerable
amount of physical and mental effort to collect information,
test that information to ascertain its validity, and assess
the results of that testing. Only then can scientists
propose models to explain how the universe works. Others
must then repeat the process, and seek other supporting
evidence, before any scientific conclusions can be
considered to be reasonably valid.
Second, religion has the appealing feature of being
certain. Science can never be absolutely certain about its
theories because scientists must rely on observable,
repeatable data--and new data may overturn the conclusions
reached with old data. Religion, on the other hand, can
afford to be certain in its interpretation; since the
"truth" is contained in the Bible (and is therefore above
question), all evidence to the contrary must be
misinterpretation.
Open-minded scientists are willing to accept the
possible explanation offered by creation science--but that
acceptance depends on the submission of independently
verifiable evidence. Such evidence, to date, has not been
forthcoming. All that supporters of creationism offer is
_one_ interpretation of _one_ religion's primary manuscript,
while attacking certain specific interpretations of certain
specific data and theories that challenge their _faith_ in a
5,997-year-old universe.
There is nothing wrong with having faith, but one must
remember that faith and science are not the same thing.
Faith is belief in the miracle of the universe; science is
an attempt to understand that miracle.
Jeffrey R. Paine
Springfield
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
Sub: Lotto
Date: 15 Dec 93 01:32:00
--------
EID:e295 1b8f0c00
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d0eb038
REPLY: 8:916/1008 8b27e21b
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Steve!
SC@9> Oh well, I guess the advent of the calculator has killed off the old
SC@9> "common sense" double-check of calculation results.
SC@9>
SC@9> Since you don't have to match the order, the odds in your game are
SC@9> (6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) * (2/46) * (1/45) = 1/15,890,700
You've neglected to factor in 'Lotto America's misleading 'PowerBall' element.
Ups the odds to around 55 million! ;-)
--- FD 2.20a-mL/Fmail 0.96g+
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * (1:109/601)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Eric Greene
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 15 Dec 93 17:14:04
--------
EID:0c22 1b8f89c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38af3149
REPLY: 1:133/208.1 2d0b532d
In a msg to Charlie Wilson on , Eric Greene of 1:133/208.1
write
s:
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
EG> Of course. Gravity is a fact, yet theories are needed to explain it.
EG> Light is a fact, yet quantum theory is a way of explaining it. The
EG> bending of light by mass is a fact, and the Theory of Relativity is
EG> offered as an explanation.
EG> This is how science works, ya know!
No...apparently he DOESN'T know...
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 15 Dec 93 17:14:48
--------
EID:0103 1b8f89c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38af33b0
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , J.J. Hitt of 1:106/9788.2
write
s:
DB> Gravity is a fact, and there are seveal theories to explain it.
DB> Do you doubt gravity?
JH> Excelent analogy! (I'm adding it to my 'keepers'.)
Thanks! :-)
JH> And when you get to super-dense objects like neutron stars and black
JH> holes, you find that no one theory covers all the phenomenon adequately.
JH> "Missing links"... no doubt.
Ah, heck, then let's just throw the whole thing away! There is no gravity,
th
e Earth sucks!
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Linda Elston
To: Jim Dritsas
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 15 Dec 93 09:41:58
--------
EID:04a4 1b8f4d20
MSGID: 8:933/4.0 2d0f2236
REPLY: 1:259/208@fidonet.org c6114ba5
JD> vincinity in which a crop circle is discovered. These noises are mostly
JD> heard at night, as far as I know. Maybe Taos and this town in Utah
have
JD> some crop fields nearby?
I know what you're talking about. I've been intrigued with the crop circle
thi
ng for quite awhile, but these humming sounds are apparently heard continuousl
y. As for crop fields in Utah, well, how about rocky outCROPings? >G< Or,
if y
ou want to get into the really nitty gritty controversial skepticism, ever
hea
rd of the "hollow earth" theory, in which the earth is supposed to be filled
w
ith hollow areas in which aliens have cities under our feet? One claim is
ther
e is an entrance in Mammoth Cave. I don't say I believe it, but who knows
for
sure? There are stranger things in heaven and earth, Horatio (or however
that
goes) >G<
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: The People's Advocate & Post : 405.391.6604 (8:933/4)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 14 Dec 93 08:44:22
--------
EID:d7d4 1b8e4580
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8f27191c
> RM> Gary, for the record, the "p0" is superflous for both you and
> RM> David, since it is assumed by default. The default assumption is
> RM> correct in both cases, since neither of you runs a "point" system
> RM> (p for point
> Theoretically, the "p0" is not required. However, I have had problems
> with e-mail bouncing addressed to Fidonet addresses without it. It
> doesn't hurt to leave it in, so I'd advise keeping it.
That must have been coincidence. All the "p0" does is ensure that
your mail emerges on the far side of the UUCP-FidoNet gateway addressed
to x:yyy/zzz.0, which means _precisely_ the same thing as the x:yyy/zzz
address that results if you omit the "p0" part.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 03:49:00
--------
EID:304b 1b901e20
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Rick Moen @ 916/1008 saying to Charlie Wilson:
> I surely hope that last line was not directed towards _me_. If
> so, please directly quote where I stated creationist opinions (unless
> you mean that when I said evolution was a theory, that equaled
> "creationist."
RM@9>
RM@9> It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
There's only one problem: I'm not one.
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 03:50:00
--------
EID:f14b 1b901e40
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Dr Pepper saying to Charlie Wilson:
> See you there as soon as I've configured everything
> accordingly!
> (Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a
> pseudonym?)
DP> What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now, taking
DP> advantage of my right to use a name of my own choosing.
DP> 10 2
DP> DR PEPPER
DP> 4
Oops! I thought this echo dealt in truth. My mistake. :)
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Mark Hebert
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting At Creationis
Date: 20 Dec 93 07:04:00
--------
EID:84da 1b943880
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7658
On 12-09-93 Charlie Wilson wrote to Jon Strayer...
CW> CW> I was "going on about" the _fact_ that evolution is a
CW> CW> theory, not a fact (exactly as I quoted). What are _you_
CW> CW> going on about? Charlie
CW>
CW> JS> There is
both the fact of evolution and the theories that seek to
CW> JS> explain it. Many creationsist are confused by this.
CW>
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
CW> Charlie
Evolution, is in fact, just a theory. Facts are demonstrable things such
as fossil records and vestigal anatomy. Evolution may be 'just a theory'
but at least it tries to fit the facts.
Mark E Hebert
Marquis A Bear
--- JCQWK
* Origin: The London Underground * 708-680-9420 * USR V.32Terbo * (1:115/858)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Re: Subliminal Advertising
Date: 29 Dec 93 22:35:07
--------
EID:dc1d 1b9db460
JG> Remember, folks, ALWAYS fill out buyer and market surveys.
JG> Just fill 'em out *weird*. Screw the bastards.
hehehe...
For the last two years I have been part of a 'market study'. I was
given a bar code scanner and I scan all my purchaces, and phone them
in weekly.
I don't intentionally give them false data, but I'm far enough away
from the norm to slant their averages somewhat.
But, yes, vendors and manufactures want that data. Want it bad enough
to pay for it.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: Tyler A. wunder
Sub: Lotteries
Date: 28 Dec 93 14:12:00
--------
EID:7ea6 1b9c7180
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9d27d91b
DM> ROll a die. Say a 6 represents a win. I have a 1/6 chance.
DM> Now I agree to bet each time on a 6 coming up. If we have the same bet,
DM> after 3 rolls I have a 50/50 chance, etc.
Let's get our definitions straight. In this case you're saying
that you will bet on a 6 every time. What you want to determine
is what is the chance that, after three rolls, a six will have
been thrown at least once. You determine this by finding the
chance of a 6 never appearing and subtracting that from 1. The
chance that a 6 won't appear on each throw is 5/6. The chance
that a 6 won't have appeared after three throws is (5/6)^3 or
125/216=0.5787 so your chances of getting a 6 are actually only
about 42.1%. You can't say 3 rolls gives you a 50% chance any
more than you can say that 6 rolls assures you of getting a 6.
Note, that you can get more that one 6 but you have only a 42.1%
chance of getting a 6 at all.
TAW> Not a mathematician, but I was strongly under the impression that
you
r
>chances of getting a 6 from rolling a die were 1/6, regardless of previous
>throws. If it's your sixth throw of the die, you still have a one in six
>chance of getting a 6.
True, for a single additional roll. But the question is what is
the chance of getting at least one 6 from three rolls which is
different.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Michael McDaniel
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 29 Dec 93 19:00:53
--------
EID:24a5 1b9d9800
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11F8A865
REPLY: 1:147/18.0 2d1a8eea
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Michael Mcdaniel really say something to Kerry Penny, on 24 Dec 93?
MM> The following is the second portion of Neil Schulman's
MM> message to Linda
MM> Thompson:
Funny how this message didn't make it into the Region 11 General Chat Ech
o, where AEN posts from Al and Linda show up. They're incessant cross-posters
of their own messages, but hate it when somone cross-posts something detrimen
tal to them.
Well, at least she doesn't spare anuone from her vitriol. I just wish so
me of her claims weren't so non-sensical.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: subliminals
Date: 30 Dec 93 07:03:50
--------
EID:dfb8 1b9e3860
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d22c3e6
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d206a9a
A pregnant pause ensued as Tyler A. Wunder shared a conception -- subliminals
-- with Marc Brode on 28 Dec 93 17:17:
TAW> Personally, <> <> <> <> I think it's
TAW> a crock of shit.
TAW> <> <> <> <> :)
THAT wasn't subliminal--I can SEE it. Besides, you didn't provide an add
ress where I can send the wallet . . .
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Mark Smith
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Salman Rushdie
Date: 30 Dec 93 10:19:00
--------
EID:564a 1b9e5260
MSGID: 1:280/335 861BE79C
TYLER A. WUNDER said:
TAW> I don't remember having said discussion with him, but
> as I often see him when I'm intoxicated, we may have had it:
> anyway, he claims that he said that he would "thought-kill"
> Salmon Rushdie; furthermore, he claims that Rushdie was
> indeed recently attacked and hospitalized. Both claims are
> suspect, although the latter can actually be
> substantiated/falsified.
TAW> Any recent news on Rushdie's status? Anybody?
As far as I know, Rushdie is still among the living. I remember
that he made big news (?!) recently by appearing on stage at a
rock concert in London -- was it Bob Dylan? At any rate, I have
to assume that any attack on him would create a widespread news
frenzy because of its highly exploitable sensationalism.
No news is good news ... or so I hope.
* Apex v4 * Don't just eat a hamburger -- eat the HELL out of it!
--- WM v3.10/92-0046
* Origin: ..LaughingStock BBS (913)648-1412 Kansas (1:280/335.0)
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--------
From: Mark Smith
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Skeptical Inquirer
Date: 30 Dec 93 12:14:00
--------
EID:d806 1b9e61c0
MSGID: 1:280/335 861BE79D
TYLER A. WUNDER said to DAVID BLOOMBERG:
TAW> Perhaps I'm asking the wrong person, but is there a number
> that can be called in order to order a subscription to the
> Skeptical Inquirer?
I've got the latest issue right here. There subscription number
is 1-800-634-1610.
* Apex v4 * "Where quality is a slogan!"
--- WM v3.10/92-0046
* Origin: ..LaughingStock BBS (913)648-1412 Kansas (1:280/335.0)
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--------
From: Mark Smith
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Subliminal Advertising
Date: 30 Dec 93 12:31:00
--------
EID:9f5e 1b9e63e0
MSGID: 1:280/335 861BE79E
Butting in to a conversation between JIM GIFFORD and DAVE HORN:
JG> HIDDEN PERSUADERS was Vance Packard. Although Packard
> included some of the fringe stuff like subliminal advertising
> (he presented the infamous non-existent "Drink Coke" theater
> test as fact), his book was more about the real psychological
> manipulations used by advertisers and advertising.
JG> The section I recall dealt with the minute psychological
> evaluation of potential buyers, such as the buying habits and
> profiles of women throughout their menstrual cycles. All that
> stuff, while hyped a bit by Packard, was and is real.
Although it's been a while since I read HIDDEN PERSUADERS, I can
remember a couple of interesting bits from it about marketing
research.
In one study, it was found that women preferred a cake mix that
required them to add an egg over one that contained powdered egg
and needed only water. The theory was that people were lazy
enough to want to make a cake from a mix instead of from scratch,
but a mix that was TOO easy just gave them the bad feeling of
being lazy.
The book also said that makers of shaving preparations operate on
the principle that men derive no satisfaction from shaving unless
it hurts. The stuff guys splash on after shaving really doesn't
do much for your skin except make it sting, which is supposed to
make the average macho Joe grunt happily over his ability to
tolerate pain and produce facial hair. Kind of makes sense, in a
Tim Allen sort of way.
The point of the book, to me, was that companies will attempt
just about any hare-brained scheme if they can even imagine that
some kind of business advantage will result.
JG> Remember, folks, ALWAYS fill out buyer and market surveys.
> Just fill 'em out *weird*. Screw the bastards.
Hear, hear. Give those overpaid hacks something to think about.
Market research is pretty useless anyway. It doesn't actually
help, but it provides a handy excuse when a marketing strategy
bombs. "Gee, I can't understand it, J.B. This stuff scored
through the roof in testing. So don't fire me."
* Apex v4 * It's the slap-happiest, rib-ticklingest laff-a-thon ever!
--- WM v3.10/92-0046
* Origin: ..LaughingStock BBS (913)648-1412 Kansas (1:280/335.0)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Don Martin
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 30 Dec 93 10:41:30
--------
EID:7ab1 1b9e5520
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Don!
27 Dec 93, dixit Don Martin ad Steve Quarrella:
DM> Considering that we don't see English that most people
DM> would recognize as English until well after the Norman
DM> conquest, Stokes' god must have been put on hold for quite
You might want to see a previous message to J.J. in which I raised the
issue "How did Middle English evolve back into Old English and then
back into Middle English?" Of course, this issue is so blatantly absurd
that I'm surprised that Jackson hasn't laughed us outta here! :)
... "Allow me to expose my colon once again..." ILC
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: 1994
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:03:42
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 01890eca
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings all, in the happy new year of 1994.
I thought I would inject some words of well-wish for the coming year
for all of my electronic friends and even towards my most "conflictive
opposistion" of the past year. Though profound words are never mine
to speak, I would like to say that, though one will never sway
another's opinion and deeply-held beliefs one way or another, and even
as personal insults are bantered about sometimes, I can respect the
standing firm in ones deity or paranormal opinions even though I may
fail to understand the need to do so.
To my friends, Jackson Harding, Scott Neville, Steve Q., Rick Moen, and
so many others, and to the opposistion over the old year, Jesse, Steve
B., and so many others, here's fond well-wish for the new year.
-=-
The new year in Holland was a resounding success with much fireworks
and noise. As midnight began, the firecrackers started in a hundred
cities around Holland; millions of firecrackers set in long spirals on
the sidewalk or along the center of the street exploded continually
and sounded like rain upon a tin roof for hours.
Hundreds of rockets were fired which dropped unusual curtains of fire
over the sky to fall slowly. 'Unusual because I've never seen such
fireworks.
In the morning, the mess was, well, quite a mess. Piles of shredded red
paper from the firecrackers were seen everywhere and children sifted
through them for unexploded ones. Trees set on fire during the night
could still be seen giving smoke yet there didn't seem to be too much
damage in the festival of the new year.
Fredric
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckleth
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:14:36
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 01890ecc
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who
SQ> claims that English was spoken in Biblical times.
jjh> THUD!
jjh> I'm really going to have to turn HOLYSMOKES on, I cant miss this.
Sadly, Master Stokes had fled a long time ago to find people more, um, well,
e
r, willing? to believe that English was the language of the time. There
had a
lso been comments about how the use of English around the world -- being
taugh
t in high schools and such -- was a 'sign' that the second coming of one
of hi
s heros was ever-more-so at hand.
His first was a testable claim and easilly debunked. The second, well...
I w
ould guess that a myth can return reguardless of the languages spoken around
t
he planet -- if Wonder Woman comics are any example.
jjh> I'll be damned... I had assumed, from what I had seen in this echo,
jjh> that someone was claiming that King James's contemporaries spoke in
jjh> the style of the KJV.
Steve Q. is well-versed in languages and is _constantly_ correcting mine.
There was much discussion about the use of the word "pisseth" and the
app
ending of the "eth" uponeth many words wicheth just don'teth makeths much
sens
eth linguistically.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mark Hebert
Sub: Evolution Theory
Date: 03 Jan 94 11:35:43
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 01890ece
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Creationists seem incapable of recognizing the difference between
FR> fact and the theory designed to describe same fact.
cw> mean that when I said evolution was a theory, that equaled
cw> "creationist."
mh> In questioning the facthood of evolution and asking for
mh> proof, Charlie is simply being a well mannered skeptic.
Well, no, actually; we've seen otherwise. Were someone to question the
validi
ty of gravity same someone couldn't easilly be considered a "well mannered
ske
ptic" but perhaps simply someone who is mistaken. As far as asking for
proof,
this isn't a mathematical inquiry so asking for evidence would be acceptable.
So far as evidence is concerned the fossil record shows speciation. Testabl
e and tested theories describe the fact.
Evolution is not subject to opinion, belief, or disbelief. The speciation
of
living entities is an immutable fact. Evolutionary theories, however,
are su
bject to debate. To suggest that someone who questions the validity of
evolut
ion is merely being skeptical... well, that's quite simply inaccurate.
mh> As I stated in a previous message, proving one mutant example
mh> will lead to an improved species would be a difficult.
No one would suggest that such is the case in any event. No biologist,
I shou
old say, as many creationists hold up this straw man and claim that biologists
suggest this -- so that the claim may easilly be knocked down when the creati
onist finds it an undefended posistion.
mh> Disclaiming evolution as fact does not invalidate evolutionary
mh> theory as a usefull tool to explain the facts presented by
mh> the fossil record.
Obviously the disclaimant would be in error and yet perhaps you'll forgive
me
were I to suggest that this sentence is somewhat meaningless? "Disclaiming
at
oms or germs does not invalidate atomic or germ theory as a useful tool
to exp
lain the facts presented by physics or disease." Quite simply, were one
to su
ggest that germs are subject to debate whereas germ theory remains a vaiable
t
ool to describe the advent of disease... well, it's a statement that confuses
me.
mh> However, by accepting evolution and regecting creationism
mh> one ignores that other possiblities exist.
Inaccurate. Creationism is not a theory; it is a religious belief. Discountin
g groundless claims about which no predictions may be made is performed
by vir
tue of there being a dismal lack of evidence or any direct observation to
supo
rt it. As yet, no creationist has ever presented a theory. Also as yet,
no cr
eationist has been able to create a scientifically valid creationism text
book
for schools.
Quite simply because it's religion, not science.
Also, it only subtracts creationists claims from the bevy of inquiry. It
does
not close-off all other avenues of inquiry. If there are other venues of
inq
uiry into the speciation of living entities -- plants and animals -- then
scie
ntific inquiry will (and has and continues to do so) persue them. Science
won
't, however, use a mythologyas a basis as science deals only with the testable
and the falsifiable.
Also, "accepting evolution" incorrectly suggests that evolution is subject
to
debate; that it is a matter of belief or disbelief. It is not.
mh> For the sake of sophistry here are two other theories:
Great!
mh> A. Divine intervention now and again
mh> [tweaks] the 'natual selection process.
This assertion would be untestable and, as such, unfalsifiable and so is
not a
scientific theory. It is, however, religious belief about which there is
no
-- and can be no -- evidence. Were there to _be_ evidence, it would not
be a
matter of religious belief yet an article of scientific inquiry.
Perterbation theory would work were there anything said deity perterbs.
Were
these deities capable of influencing(sp) something whereas they remain hidden,
perterbation theory would be able to uncover them. At that time these deitie
s would be an inquiry for scientific investigation. As it is, the thousands
o
f deities do not perterb and so no theories can be created for them.
mh> B. Space Aliens
This assertion would be untestable and, as such, unfalsifiable and so also
doe
s not count as a scientific theory. It is, of course, subject to models
of ho
w life forms form and how they propagate. Also, it merely removes the _origin
s_ of life to another planet. Evolution doesn't cover origins of life.
It cov
ers speciation.
mh> Preconceptions cloud the mind.
As do misconceptions and religious indoctrination. As it is, any _scientific_
theory presented to describe the advent of species is presentable to the
scie
ntific community at large and the scientific layperson. Claims that speciatio
n doesn't take place may be successfully and rightfully discounted as incorrec
t -- UNLESS there is good reason to suspect that the evidence is all a hoax
or
that there are reasonable problems with the evidence or the tools used to
exa
min them. No such reasons exist.
I've read occult claims about bad/negative deities placing fossils around
the
world as a hoax to mislead paleontologists and biologists. I have also
read a
claim that "scientists" drop fossils from airplanes to hoax the public.
Thes
e claims presuppose untestable and so unscientific premises: that these
bad d
eities exist and that these fossils are creations of humans.
Deities and space aliens are equal in validity; specifically, they are claims
of the unevidenced and the untestable.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
’
--------
From: Don Martin
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: This should prove interesting
Date: 31 Dec 93 12:29:51
--------
EID:b49a 1b9f63a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2462ba
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b509e034
A pregnant pause ensued as Fredric Rice shared a conception -- This should
pro
ve interes -- with David Bloomberg on 28 Dec 93 09:53:
FR> Oh, by the way, the State of Illinois will start granting licenses
FR> to naprapaths in 1994. I wonder how they will determine who should
FR> be authorized to move these strange
FR> energies through people's bodies.
FR> This should be interesting.
Curiously enough, my father was a naprapath, getting his degree or whatev
er the hell it was around 1933 in Chicago (the only place at the time that
HAD
any "schools of naprapathy"). His thing was "drugless healing by ligamental
adjustment" and it was the only health care I ever received until I joined
the
Army. After all these years, one wonders why the State is finally getting
ar
ound to licensing the product of these tax-paying schools. Or has the definiti
on of this particular practice changed whilst my back was turned?
---
* Origin: The Jaundiced Eye--Rheum With a View (RA 1:109/519.37)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 01 Jan 94 15:29:24
--------
EID:10d1 1c217ba0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
29 Dec 93, dixit Ron Ballew ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English
was
SQ>>> spoken in Biblical times.
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
Oh? Did he, now? Can you provide some scientific basis for this "tongues"?
You're talking to a linguist here, so make it count. There are some people
here who are considerably more educated than I WRT to Germanic linguistics
(My background is in Latinate languages, with some dabbling in Oscan and
Umbrian.), but your claims are so absurd that anybody with a decent
background in linguistics can address them.
Do you have access to HOLYSMOKE? I would very much like to examine your
claim there. This forum deals with testable claims, not outrageous ones,
and we are tangentially on-topic here at the very best. I'll leave the
final
say up to Jackson Harding, our gracious host and moderator.
RB> That means that every person present
RB> heard Jesus speak in his own language.
No, that means that the holy book of an old civilization that was eventually
translated into English so that the church brasshats could read it aloud
to
you from the steps of their place of worship, and they read aloud in
the language they knew their audience-victims would understand. That
language was English.
RB> So, if anyone there spoke English, then they heard Jesus in English.
Can you provide some provision for anybody at the time being able to speak
English? Some small piece of documentation to that effect?
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB> only goes back about 5,000 years.
Provide me with some written evidence of English prior to the 7th and 8th
centuries please. That era certainly falls within the past 5000 years,
does
it not? Are you going to sit here and tell me that English was
spoken in Biblical times, yet not written down? If so, why? I'll clue
you
in, though: What we now know as Old English (based on documents from
the 7th and 8th centuries) did not resemble the language that you know
today as English, and I'll be interested to hear your explanation as to
how
Jesus' audience spoke a language that did not exist at the time.
RB> There is evidence that there
RB> were advanced civilizations that rose and fell prior to written history.
You're not a scientologist, are you? Is it your claim that some "advanced
civilization" spoke English, and after this advanced civilization disappeared
(scooped up by the Borg, no doubt), the language remained? Can you provide
some documentation for this? Can you explain, then, how this "Middle
English which predated written history" survived as a spoken language into
Biblical times (where it was not written down, it seems), evolved into
Old English, and then evolved into Middle English (Do you know who William
the Conqueror is, by any chance?)?
RB> How do you know that English has not always been
RB> spoken, then and now?
Because, perhaps, there is no evidence of Middle English from "then"?
Let's get something straight here: When you make the claim, it is not up
to ME to disprove it. It is up to you to offer the evidence for your claim.
That prevents me from saying "I know for a fact that Esperanto was spoken
by George Washington", and then making you do MY homework for me. So,
without further ado, please present your evidence that English, in whatever
form (but I would prefer Middle English), was spoken not only in Biblical
times, but also spoken by some advanced civilization that rose and fell
prior to written history. If you can do that, I will quit my job, write
a
paper with you that will basically rewrite the book on Germanic linguistics,
and then I'll -retire- at age 26 from the millions of dollars the project
brings me.
Methinks that you have absolutely no idea how diachronic linguistics work,
do you?
... A rooster clucks defiance - but a lawyer. . .
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 30 Dec 93 07:42:00
--------
EID:42e0 1b9e3d40
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Don Martin saying to Charlie Wilson:
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Charlie Wilson shared a conception --
DM> Tilting at creationist -- with Rick Moen @ 916/1008 on 16 Dec 93
DM> 03:49:
> RM@9> It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
CW> There's only one problem: I'm not one.
DM> Your lack of qualifying membership in that august group does not
DM> cleanse the gambit of its error. (Ya don't havta be Jewish, etc. .
.
DM> . )
(Since you intrude) Are you saying that since I don't admit to
being a Jew that I'm not qualified to comment on the Holocaust?
(Lordy, I dared to dispute Rick M.)
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 31 Dec 93 13:16:52
--------
EID:a722 1b9f6a00
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d24269b
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b295525e
Hello, Fredric!
bb>> The Osage say that their ancestors came from the northern stars,
bb>> and that though they _look_ like other people, they're really
bb>> very different.
FR> Are the decendants mutations or was there some judgement passed down?
Naturally enough, the Osage didn't _have_ the concept of mutation. I think
tha
t their idea would be more along the lines of parallel evolution - the octopus
eye and the human eye, and all that.
bb>> Sometimes I'm tempted to post that in alt.alien.visitors...
FR> Would the participants within that forum consider it as evidence, I
FR> wonder?
Very likely. Then I sell them Ocean Energy Healing Crystals.
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 31 Dec 93 13:18:58
--------
EID:5c83 1b9f6a40
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d242788
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b297a90e
Hello, Fredric!
FR> All rather well tested and unevidenced, of course. Which is something
FR> of a pity, in my opinion, as telepathy is such a wonderful make-believe.
I, on the other hand, am passionately grateful there's no evidence I have
to t
ake seriously for telepathy. I value my mental privacy something fierce,
and a
m just as happy that there are parts of others' minds I can't see.
See Dan Simmons' THE HOLLOW MAN for a very nifty treatment of telepathy
based
on holographic memory, however.
le>> Being in tune also plays an important part in experimental
le>> evidence, since you cant fit a square block into a round
le>> hole, can you?
FR> It's quite easilly accomplished when the round hole is big enough to
FR> accept the square peg. Scientific method is wide enough to accept any
FR> _testable_ claim. If the claim is not testable, it is unevidenced and
FR> so is false.
Or, for that matter, if you push hard enough...which isn't proof, either.
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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From: David Mann
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mutated
Date: 31 Dec 93 15:40:18
--------
EID:8f43 1b9f7d00
MSGID: 1:105/95.666 8e683803
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b30e6b4f
FR> We have an unusual fundie in the Abomination Echo.
Being serious for just a moment: IS there such an echo, or if
not, what is it REALLY called? Thanks.
... "Just HOW many guns DO you and Jim own, Mrs. Brady?"
--- PPoint 1.74
* Origin: Bear's Cozy Den: Ladies ALWAYS Welcome! (1:105/95.666)
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--------
From: David Mann
To: Mark Smith
Sub: Subliminal Advertising
Date: 31 Dec 93 15:48:07
--------
EID:d165 1b9f7e00
MSGID: 1:105/95.666 53f05141
MS> Market research is pretty useless anyway. It doesn't actually
MS> help, but it provides a handy excuse when a marketing strategy
MS> bombs. "Gee, I can't understand it, J.B. This stuff scored
MS> through the roof in testing. So don't fire me."
Sometimes they go back to the drawing board. "Wet-Ones",
first sold as a moistened toilet paper (!) died so hard it was
incredible. They stepped back, waited, redid the ads, and they
became a "moist towelette", with non-specific uses.
Other times, there will be a product which dies because no one
knows what the heck it is! One such was something I remember
from my dear dead childhood. It was something called
"Add-It". It came in this very cute little washing-machine-
shaped plastic box, and it was sold in the lanudry products
section of supermarkets. The label told how much to put into
a load of clothes, but I don't remember the label telling the
purpose, alleged or otherwise, of putting this stuff into the
family washer. It died.
... Baldrick for President. He has a cunning plan for '96!
--- PPoint 1.74
* Origin: Bear's Cozy Den: Ladies ALWAYS Welcome! (1:105/95.666)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 01 Jan 94 14:16:48
--------
EID:dc44 1c217200
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d2585fb
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec6
Hello, Ron!
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues. That means that every person present
RB> heard Jesus speak in his own language. So, if anyone there
RB> spoke English, then they heard Jesus in English.
I'll bet you can't come up with a Scriptural citation for that.
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Ron Ballew
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 01 Jan 94 23:10:42
--------
EID:ed35 1c21b940
MSGID: 1:385/18.0 2d2675da
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Hong Ooi <=-
FR> Yeah? We've _still_ got people looking for The Fountain of Youth in
FR> Florida.
The ones that are over 100 years old probably drank from it and
don't know it.
FR> I, myself, have searched for
FR> Amazon Women of the Avacado Jungle (for copulative reasons which
FR> should be obvious) so I shouldn't smile and nod my head knowingly too
FR> often when I see Arkers. }:-}
Every man that has found the Amazon Women has not returned.
He becomes a male slave you see.
FR> Yet that's all rather mundane in light of
FR> people looking at bits and pieces of a mythological boat.
Mythological boat? What do you mean. I read about it in the
Bible! There is even a VCR tape showing a part of it sticking
out of a mountain in Turkey. The VCR tape is called "Noah's
Ark", available at your local Video store (the better ones that
is).
... BATF Motto "Let God sort out the innocent!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: Home of The Lawton Astronomical Society (405)536-9582 (1:385/18)
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--------
From: Lewis Marvich
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Re: Subliminal brainwashing
Date: 01 Jan 94 19:10:46
--------
EID:a701 1c219940
-=> Quoting Jim Gifford to J.J. Hitt <=-
JG> I absolutely refuse to use these carts. I'll wait for a plain cart or
JG> go halfway across the parking lot for one. (A friend suggested that
we
JG> all should let our small children push the carts. THAT would screw 'em
JG> up.
It'd (hopefully) make their software barf! Once they input the new data
what
would we get? Marketing for Midgets!! All the candy, soda, potato chips,
twinkies, etc. would be displayed at 3 foot or lower.
I suppose that would help remove temptation from my path when shopping!
:)
... This is no ordinary fool you're dealing with.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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--------
From: Jim Gifford
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Borg & Jesus
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:13:08
--------
EID:6c30 1c2279a0
MSGID: 1:203/289.0 2d272ad4
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
RB> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations that rose
RB> and fell prior to written history.
SQ> You're not a scientologist, are you? Is it your claim
SQ> that some "advanced civilization" spoke English, and after this advanced
SQ> civilization disappeared (scooped up by the Borg, no doubt)...
Hee hee. "Turn the other cheek, and that will be assimilated too!"
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289)
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--------
From: Jim Gifford
To: Lewis Marvich
Sub: Re: Subliminal brainwashing
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:15:12
--------
EID:1863 1c2279e0
MSGID: 1:203/289.0 2d272b50
JG> I absolutely refuse to use these carts. I'll wait for a plain cart or
JG> go halfway across the parking lot for one. (A friend suggested that
we
JG> all should let our small children push the carts. THAT would screw 'em
JG> up.
LM> It'd (hopefully) make their software barf! Once they input the new
LM> data what would we get? Marketing for Midgets!! All the candy,
LM> soda, potato chips, twinkies, etc. would be displayed at 3 foot or lower.
No, we'd end up with Barney everything (except for the Power Rangers condoms
a
nd Strawberry Shortcake premixed douche).
(Gah- that's tasteless enough to have come from F. Rice...)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Lotteries
Date: 02 Jan 94 21:18:00
--------
EID:801b 1c22aa40
TAW> Not a mathematician, but I was strongly under the
> impression that your
> chances of getting a 6 from rolling a die were 1/6,
> regardless of previous
> throws. If it's your sixth throw of the die, you
> still have a one in six chance of getting a 6.
SC> True, for a single additional roll. But the question is what is
SC> the chance of getting at least one 6 from three rolls which is
SC> different.
Aiee!
The 'Monty' / 'Prisoners Dilema' yet again!
Best way to start an argument I've found yet without resorting to
religion, politics or women.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Re: ...out there.
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:24:43
--------
EID:99e3 1c226b00
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 102AEC9B
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Ron Ballew really say something to John Jeanneault, on 29 Dec 93?
RB> And people used to think that if you went over 100
RB> mph that you
RB> would die. And then, they believed that exceeding
A valid viewpoint in some cases. Try it on an icy road sometime.
RB> Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed
RB> of light
RB> is no doubt wrong too. If over 90% of the matter in
Quite a lot of doubt. The amazing amount of energy needed to get even ha
lfway there precludes us from doing so within the near future (as in the
next
couple decades). Do you know how much it takes for us to just work particle
a
ccelerators? Then you want us to do that with such a large mass as the
human
body is?
By the way, the speed of light is the functional limit of time. That's
w
hy things can _be_ faster than light, at light, or slower. But gettiing
there
is such a pain.
RB> universe is invisible, than 90% of it could be
RB> traveling
RB> without light and much faster than the speed of light
You seem to have hit a limit of your own. The speed of light does not im
ply that only light travels that speed. Things other than photons can travel
that speed, also. It's just that light is far more easily measured, since
we
have precise instruments for it (lasers).
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Creation Stories
Date: 03 Jan 94 04:51:29
--------
EID:bb88 1c232660
FR> I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that
FR> The People lived on three other planets prior to coming here
FR> in the form of First Man and First Woman (in that order.)
bb> Lots of American aboriginal peoples have the same kind of story.
FR> So I've found. I was surprised that the belief is so common.
I'm not overly surprised.
The Aboriginal Teller of Stories who told his listeners that:
"we've always lived here, things have always been like this and
there aint nothing special about any of it"...
...soon lost his audience and livelyhood.
There could be a wide variety of reasons why a particular compass
direction would be common to tales told over a wide area. A common
origin is, of course, one of them. But I'd also look at the local
weather and the migratory patterns of local birds and game animals.
Placing a special signifigance on a compass direction is pretty common
even amoung 'modern' peoples (those of us who don't think of north as
just being 'up' on a map, that is). Here in Texas we have "Northers"
and New England has it's "Northeasters".
If there was still a market for creation tales, I'd obviously want to
tell my listeners that we came from some place (or direction) that
already held a special meaning to them.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Necronomicon
Date: 03 Jan 94 12:49:10
--------
EID:a119 1c236620
FR> As I recall, BASIS carried a report on the origins of the
FR> H. P. Lovecraft book 'Necronomicon' and listed three
FR> hoaxes which were derived from his fiction.
FR> Can you point me towards the correct issue to download?
FR> There are claims that the book existed prior to the birth
FR> of HPL and I seem to recall that this myth was a spin-off
FR> of one of the hoaxes.
Dont forget that there is a motion picture being made (or it may
already be out for all I know) called 'Necronomicon'.
Any claims circulating about the book or the rest of the Lovecraft
mythos is liable to be nothing more than promotional hype.
I'll be interested in seeing the movie and how "true" it is to HPL's
works. Though I'm fully prepaired to be deeply disappointed.
It always amazes me that folks who make the most noise about what a
written work says (be it the Bible or HPL or any of a wide variety of
other works) almost as a rule have NEVER READ the material they are
making claims about. Rather they saw a made-for-TeeVee movie, read a
highly popularized article on it or the ever popular "heard about it
from a friend".
What's most interesting is the one hoax copy (didn't know there were
two others) I have of the Necronomicon doesn't include any of the
material that Lovecraft supposedly "quoted" out of it.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 03 Jan 94 13:02:42
--------
EID:c426 1c236840
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
WRONG. None of the Gospel authors make this claim.
They make plenty of claims, but they dont make that one.
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB> only goes back about 5,000 years. There is evidence that there
RB> were advanced civilizations that rose and fell prior to written
RB> history. How do you know that English has not always been
RB> spoken, then and now?
I'll (for the time being) ignore the questions about 'advanced' that
statement raises. (Advanced compared to what, whom?)
Civilization (literally city-building) isn't a prerequisite to
language use. Human language is universal in it's occurance. There
are no pre-verbal humans anywhere. But not all humans are
'civilized', many of them are members of nomadic or hunter-gatherer
cultures.
Now... as to the statement about pre-historic English: written
history covers the evolution of English and then extends a good ways
past it's origin. One might as well make the same claim about
anything: Pop Rocks (tm) or television.
"How do you know when television first showed up? Written history
only goes back 5000 years. How do you know that television has not
always been watched?"
Yes... how do you know anything? Hmmmm?
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Simon Shaw
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 15 Dec 93 16:03:54
--------
EID:02af 1b8f8060
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 3:690/372.0 2d0ec4ea
REPLY: 1:239/200.0 11FAE554
KP> Did Fredric Rice really say something to Kerry Penny, on 03 Dec 93?
p>> With half of the genetic material missing?
FR> All of the genetic information required is present for
FR> a cell to begin division and to continue to divide
FR> until a baby is born. How the cell begins to divide,
FR> I wouldn't know. I read that the child is always
FR> female but that it dies quickly.
KP> I differ with that opinion. The egg has only half
KP> of the genetic material needed to provide fission into
KP> something that would resemble a human embryo. I won't
etc. etc.
Sorry guys but virgin births are possible ! I'm not too sure about the
detail
s but I'm positive that a female egg can divide through other means than
being
impregated with a sperm cell. Yes the offspring is genetically deficient
but
can survive, there have been a small number of human cases of this recently.
Will post message on internet for more info.
--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: MICROMINE BBS-Supporting the mining industry. (619) 389-8317.
(3:69
0/372)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: MUTATED
Date: 24 Dec 93 15:02:00
--------
EID:c32f 1b987840
ATH: 209/720 209 396/1 3603/20 3619/25
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Inner Sanctum - Six Lines & 10 GB (813) 848-6055 (1:3619/21)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: THIS SHOULD PROVE INTERESTING
Date: 28 Dec 93 09:53:00
--------
EID:a891 1b9c4ea0
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--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Skepticism as a philo
Date: 02 Jan 94 18:20:21
--------
EID:48c3 1c229280
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2d277988
-=> Quoting Rick Moen @ 916/1008 to Don Kemerling <=-
DK> Paul Kurtz is not starting a philosophical movement called
DK> skepticism. His philosophical movement is called secular humanism,
DK> and he's not giving it up.
RM@9>
RM@9> His book would seem to suggest that he is trying to confuse the two.
RM@9> Officers of the skeptics' organisations just about uniformly consider
RM@9> this a particularly dumb idea. Plainly, Kurtz thinks otherwise.
He
RM@9> has been repeatedly warned, for year, of the increasing discomfort
RM@9> with which such officers have regarded these efforts. He seems not
to
RM@9> care. This book is only the _latest_ episode in a long affair.
I am annoyed by the apparent attempts to "marry" the two movements.
One of the things that I like about CSICOP is its alleged non-position
on religion, since religion is a matter of faith, which is non-
falsifiable. This really saves we skeptics a lot of problems...problems
that would be created by having to expend our energy arguing about
religion, which to me is not very constructive.
I was telling my friend Don, who is a Methodist minister, about
CSICOP, and he was very interested. When’the question of skepticism
about religion came up, it was so nice to be able to tell him that
religion is a matter of faith, and is fundamentally non-testable.
He was then satisfied that skeptics aren't necessarily a bunch of
raving atheists.
But with Kurtz running CSICOP and CODESH and his Center for Inquiry
out of the same building, how much longer will I be able to say this?
I know that many or even most skeptics are probably atheists, but
I like the idea that the skeptical umbrella is larger, and can
even include those who's spiritual quests might take them to
organized religion.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.96/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: This should prove interesting
Date: 01 Jan 94 10:44:53
--------
EID:0019 1c215580
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 398bc012
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b509e034
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoN
et writes:
FR> Oh, by the way, the State of Illinois will start granting licenses
FR> to naprapaths in 1994. I wonder how they will determine who should
FR> be authorized to move these strange energies through people's bodies.
FR> This should be interesting.
That's not exactly the term *I* would have used... :-(
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 01 Jan 94 13:48:32
--------
EID:a9c2 1c216e00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 398d7228
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
In a msg to John Jeanneault on , Ron Ballew of 1:385/18 writes:
RB> And people used to think that if you went over 100 mph that you
RB> would die. And then, they believed that exceeding the speed of
RB> sound was a death trap for sure.
Those were BELIEFS with no grounding in scientific theory.
RB> Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed of light
RB> is no doubt wrong too.
Why? Give me one theoretical reason.
RB> The correct title for the term "relativity" is Theory of Relativity.
It
RB> is only an idea that might be right, or might be wrong.
You obviously don't know what a theory is. It is not simply "an idea".
See the next two messages if you are interested in learning a little bit
about
science.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 01 Jan 94 13:50:23
--------
EID:a9c2 1c216e40
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 398d7423
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
From _The Science Gap: Dispelling the Myths and Understanding the Reality
of
Science_, by Dr. Milton A. Rothman (former professor of physics at Trenton
State College and former research physicist at the Princeton Plasma Physics
Laboratory).
P. 93:
If you suggest that stories about faster-than-light travel to distant stars
ar
e
pure fantasy, their stock answer is: "Everything we thought we knew in the
pas
t
has been overturned, so how do we know the theories of today will not be
replaced by different theories in the future?"
According to the idea that theories are but temporary abstractions, the
principle of relativity now in fashion will undoubtedly turn out to be wrong
i
n
the future. Somehow a way will be found to get around the part of the theory
that says you can't travel faster than light. Look at history.
Heavier-than-air flight was once believed to be impossible. See how silly
those unbelievers turned out to be. Therefore, scientists are just as wrong
when they say that faster-than-light travel is impossible. Although argument-
by-analogy is indefensible in any kind of science, I have heard this kind
of
logic proposed by some well-known science fiction writers whose reputations
ar
e
based on writing "hard science."
. . .
What makes this argument invalid is the fact that it is based upon a myth.
Th
e
idea that all theories are temporary is simply not true, even though it
is
believed by a great many people. The reason is, as we have shown, that
we do
know some things for a certainty.
Even though the history of science is filled with examples of scientists
changing their minds about the nature of things, does it necessarily follow
that they will continue to change their minds about all presently accepted
ideas? The truth is that many of the theories of the past were primitive,
tentative, and either incorrect or incomplete. When they changed, they
change
d
to theories that were more correct and more complete. This change took
place
because as laboratory techniques improved, experimental evidence got better.
. . .
Some historians and philosophers of science try to claim that scientific
knowledge is nothing more than the consensus of the scientific community.
According to this notion, scientists need only change their consensus and
knowledge changes accordingly.
. . .
In the physical sciences the consensus theory of knowledge simply does not
take the facts into account. Much of the conventional wisdom of nineteenth-
century physics consisted of a variety of conjectures believed to be true
by a
number of scientists and accepted on faith by others without close examination
.
It did not conform to our present standards of "knowledge." . . . To reduce
scientific knowledge to "consensus" ignores the contribution of empirical
evidence--evidence based on observation.
From p. 117, after a long chapter on why we cannot expect to find new forces
i
n
nature to help us make anti-gravity and the like:
The conclusion to which we are forced--unsatisfactory as it might be to
many--is that we cannot depend on the discovery of new and radically different
kinds of forces in the future to help us go faster than light, to hold vehicle
s
suspended in midair, to make objects move by directing thoughts at them,
or to
transmit messages telepathically. We must make do with the forces that
exist.
And finally, from p. 235-6:
Here is a review of some of the predictions we have made in this book:
. . .
* Nobody is going to travel the distant stars at speeds faster than that
of light. (Principle of relativity; Poincare' symmetry)
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 01 Jan 94 13:51:13
--------
EID:a9c2 1c216e60
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 398d75b4
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
[This text originally used in discussion of definition of "hypothesis"
vs. "theory" in the UFO echo. -- D.B. ]
From _College Chemistry_, 8th Edition, by Henry F. Holtzclaw, Jr. and William
R. Robinson (U of Nebraska and Purdue U, respectively), D.C. Heath and Company
,
p. 10 (anything in all caps was boldfaced or italicized in original):
"The Scientific Method
Your study of chemistry will be concerned with the observations, theories,
and
laws that give this science its foundation and that form a framework into
whic
h
information fits to make an integrated area of knowledge. This framework
develops from the pursuit of answers to many questions, each of which can
be
subjected to experimental investigation by an approach often called the
SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
Scientists identify problems or questions through their own observations
and experiments or from the observations, experiments, and conclusions of
others. (Problems are often identified when experiments do not go as
expected.) The first step in applying the scientific method to a problem
involves carefully planning experiments to gather facts and obtain information
about all phases of the problem. The results are examined for general
relationships that will unify the observations. Sometimes a wide variety
of
observations can be summarized in a general verbal statement or mathematical
equation know as a LAW. One example is the law of conservation of matter
(Section 1.3), which summarizes the results of thousands of experimental
observations. More often, however, a tentative explanation is suggested.
Suc
h
a proposal is called a HYPOTHESIS. For instance, Dalton attempted to explain
why mass is conserved in a chemical reaction when he first presented his
ideas
,
which were really hypotheses, of the atomic number of matter. A hypothesis
is
tested by further experiments, and, if it is capable of explaining the large
body of experimental data, it is dignified by the name THEORY. Dalton's
ideas
have been so extensively tested that we now refer to the atomic theory.
Theories themselves can prompt new questions or suggest new directions in
whic
h
additional information can be sought."
From _Outlines of Physical Chemistry_, by Farrington Daniels (U of Wisconsin),
John Wiley & Sons, Inc. P. 4:
"SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Chemistry and all other sciences are based on
experimentally established facts. When a number of facts have been collected
and classified, we may draw inferences as to the probably behavior of systems
under conditions which have not been investigated. When a number of phenomena
have been observed and studiedd with exact measurements, we can often develop
a
LAW which will predict the behavior of similar systems under different
conditions. The law is not necessarily an expression of infallible truth
but
is rather a condensed statement of facts which have been discovered by
experiment. It enables us to obtain facts which are needed without continued
recourse to experiment.
Natural laws may be discovered either by the correlation of experimentally
determined facts, as we have just shown, or by means of a speculation as
to th
e
probable cause of the phenomenon in question. Such a speculation regarding
th
e
cause of a phenomenon is called an HYPOTHESIS. After an hypothesis has
been
subjected to the test of experiment and has been shown to apply to a large
number of phenomena it is termed a THEORY."
The Third College Edition of Webster's New World Dictionary of American
English, gave the following under SYN for theory:
"SYN.--THEORY, as compared here, implies considerable evidence in support
of a
formulated general principle explaining the operation of certain phenomena
(th
e
THEORY of evolution); HYPOTHESIS implies an inadequacy of evidence in support
of an explanation that is tentatively inferred, often as a basis for further
experimentation (the nebular HYPOTHESIS); LAW implies an exact formulation
of
the principle operating in a sequence of events in nature, observed to occur
with unvarying uniformity under the same conditions (the LAW of conservation
o
f
energy)"
The following has been added as an update, to further bolster the above:
"`Theory' -- to a scientist -- is a concept firmly grounded in and based
on facts, contrary to the popular conception that it is a hazy notion or
undocumented hypothesis."
-- New Orleans Geological Society, 1985
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: 5 Laws of Quack Science
Date: 02 Jan 94 01:12:34
--------
EID:bc17 1c220980
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 3993b353
The following is an article from the December issue of The REALL News.
It may
be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper credit is
give
n. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any publication that
reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may also be
cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences. This article represents
the
opinions of its author, and does not necessarily represent the opinions
of REA
LL or its officers.
=============================================================================
The Five "Laws" of Quack Science
by Roy Auerbach
[Editor's Note: This article is a summary of remarks
given by Roy Auerbach, a member of the Executive Committee
of The Association for Rational Thought in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Permission to edit the remarks for readers of The REALL News
was given by the organization.]
Quackery and sound science are not clearly
distinguishable categories. Although some sciences are easy
to assign to one category or the other, some contain
elements of both, and sorting them out requires careful
investigation. Mere weirdness does not automatically consign
a science to quackery -- legitimate science considers such
far-out topics as alternative universes and wormholes.
The first law of quack science is *Think Big*. Quack
sciences rarely concern anything less expansive than a
theory of the origin of the universe, or least the solar
system. Another favorite target of quack science is the
discovery of extraordinary significance, for example, an
anti-gravity device, or cold fusion, touted as the solution
to the world's energy problems. Quack sciences are also
likely to take on the giants of sound science, rarely
attacking the lowly assistant professor, preferring instead
to claim that Einstein (or Newton, Pauling, or Feynman) was
wrong.
The second law of quack science is *Think Difficult*. The
laws of a quack science are usually claimed to be very
difficult to verify. Some researchers may be able to detect
the effect, others are not. The effect appears to be
sporadic for undetermined reasons. Equipment that detects
the effect reliably seems to be hard to come by. The claim
is often made that the effect is just beyond the reach of
current scientific technology. These same problems occur in
sound science, too. But in time, they vanish from sound
science as better methods are developed. Quack science is
rarely blessed with such progress, and the difficulties
persist.
The laws proposed by quack science may be difficult to
verify for other reasons -- equipment may be unavailable for
inspection, procedures may be unobservable, raw data may be
missing, and summary data may not be published in a usable
form. Such weaseling occurs in legitimate science, too. It
is occasional rather than systematic, however, and is not
tolerated by an alert scientific community. Research which
is unavailable for thorough inspection and replication is
eventually discarded by sound science.
The third law of quack science is the *Rule of Paranoia*:
"I'm a genius and they're out to get me." Often the quack
scientist views himself or herself as brilliant, which may
explain the characteristic tendency to take on the giants of
science like Einstein. They are also likely to view
themselves as victims of persecution. Fellow scientists are
seen as dishonest blockheads who reject the quack
scientist's papers, grant applications, and requests for
promotion. Huge organizations--the government, business, the
"Eastern Establishment," the Trilateral Commission_repress
his work. This is a fairly reasonable position to take,
considering the reaction of sound scientists to quack
efforts. The quack may not be a genius, but legitimate
scientists may very well be out to attack her or his
research. The uproar over cold fusion is a good example of
this characteristic of quack science.
Fourth, quack science is likely to adhere to a
characteristic law of dissemination: *No Criticism Allowed*.
A typical maneuver is to release the astounding findings to
the press before they are available to the scientific
community in standard refereed journals. The refereed
journals may be passed over in favor of self-publication,
where no hyper-critical fellow researchers can slow the flow
of information by objecting to the methods used. Publication
in conference proceedings, also unrefereed, is another
typical path for the dissemination of quack science. The
common effect shared by these methods is the production of
citable, quotable, published research unimpeded by peer
review. This allows the public to absorb the new alleged
findings in the absence of immediate critical response.
And finally, the quack scientist is typically a *Lonely
Hero of the Laboratory*, isolated in his or her discovery.
Scientific advances normally are produced through a social
process that involves communities of scientists over
time--new findings are often not unexpected and are usually
compatible with earlier work. The quack scientific
discovery, however, is likely to arrive out of the blue,
unsupported by previous research. The isolation of the work
is often apparent in the exclusive lingo used to clothe the
research--terminology unheard of in mainstream science.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 02 Jan 94 11:33:52
--------
EID:c252 1c225c20
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39996379
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet b6878fef
In a msg to Rick Moen on , Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoNet
wri
tes:
FR> As I recall, BASIS carried a report on the origins of the H. P.
FR> Lovecraft book 'Necronomicon' and listed three hoaxes which were
FR> derived from his fiction.
Some people on ParaNet are talking about the Necronomicon, and how powerful,
e
tc. it is. I pointed out that it was a hoax written by several science
fictio
n authors, but I was either ignored, or they told me it didn't matter, because
it's the power that a person BELIEVES is in there, not whether it truly
is or
not.
Huh?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Stacey J Hoskin
To: Mark Smith
Sub: SALMAN RUSHDIE
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:12:11
--------
EID:5bf4 1c227180
MSGID: 1:259/208@fidonet.org 118501d3
MS> As far as I know, Rushdie is still among the living. I remember
MS> that he made big news (?!) recently by appearing on stage at a
MS> rock concert in London -- was it Bob Dylan? At any rate, I have
MS> to assume that any attack on him would create a widespread news
MS> frenzy because of its highly exploitable sensationalism.
MS>
MS> No news is good news ... or so I hope.
MS>
Salman just had a sitting with Clinton not too long ago.
The Swedish or Norwegian publisher of the Satanic Verses was just killed
however, bringing deaths associated with the book now to 3 or so.
---
ž MMST 2.99|R: Steve Austin, a man barely alive.
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff247/b]
* Origin: UFO Intelligence Network * Toronto ONT * 905-459-6259
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Skeptics on Oprah?
Date: 03 Jan 94 18:08:55
--------
EID:57e2 1c239100
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39aa3228
My wife told me that today (1/3) on Oprah, the show was devoted (at least
the
part she saw) to skeptics and skepticism on various subjects.
We just got a new VCR, and she didn't know how to tape yet. :-) Did anybody
out there see it and/or tape it?
Thanks.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 04 Jan 94 00:45:45
--------
EID:37bd 1c2405a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39add1d9
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d2675da
In a msg to Fredric Rice on , Ron Ballew of 1:385/18 writes:
RB> Mythological boat? What do you mean. I read about it in the Bible!
Oh, well, that's telling him.
RB> There is even a VCR tape showing a part of it sticking out of a mountain
RB> in Turkey.
Funny how they can't seem to find it now, eh?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Jon Strayer
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 02 Jan 94 20:33:06
--------
EID:f6d9 1c22a420
MSGID: 1:201/20.2 08f19507
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec6
On Dec 29 20:45, Ron Ballew of 1:385/18 wrote:
SQ>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that
SQ>> English was spoken in Biblical times.
SQ>> Ralph would tell you that the answer is that Jesus and his
SQ>> spoke English. I kid you not.
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
I bet you don't even have any biblical support for that.
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written
RB> history only goes back about 5,000 years.
Ah, how about it showed up a darn bit sooner than 5,000 years ago.
RB> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations that rose
RB> and fell prior to written history.
There is? Could you present us with some of this evidence?
RB> ... There is only one civilized language.
Latin?
--- msgedsq/2 2.2b
* Origin: Lafayette, IN. (1:201/20.2)
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--------
From: Jon Strayer
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 02 Jan 94 20:36:13
--------
EID:39a5 1c22a480
MSGID: 1:201/20.2 08f1a63f
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
On Dec 29 21:06, Ron Ballew of 1:385/18 wrote:
RB> And then, they believed that exceeding
RB> the speed of sound was a death trap for sure.
It was a death trap for some.
RB> Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed of
RB> light is no doubt wrong too.
As a matter of fact there is quite a bit of doubt. The fact is that every
ex
periment to date has shown that Einstein was correct.
RB> If over 90% of the matter in
RB> the universe is invisible, than 90% of it could be
RB> traveling without light and much faster than the speed of
RB> light too.
Invisible to us, here. Get the difference? Not that visibility has anything
to do with not being able to cross the speed of light.
JJ> As far as "warp nine" is concerned...Stephen Hawking, an
JJ> internationally known and respected physicist, in his
JJ> publication, A Brief History of Time, tells us that since
JJ> relativity implies that one cannot travel faster than light,
JJ> this means that it would take far too long to travel between
JJ> stars and galaxies, and the idea that we can take a short
JJ> cut through another dimension is only science fiction,
RB> The correct title for the term "relativity" is Theory of
RB> Relativity.
All we ever have in science is theories and evidence. Either might be wrong.
However there is no rational reason to believe that General Relativity is
i
ncorrect and plenty of evidence to say that it is correct.
RB> It is only an idea that might be right, or might be wrong.
The smart money is on Albert.
RB> How does he know how many dimensions there are? He doesn't!
I bet he has a far better idea than you do.
RB> "Space, time, and thought are not the separate things that
RB> they appear to be." - The Traveler. Maybe when you learn
RB> how to think you can travel through space and time freely.
"If wishes were horses we all would ride."
--- msgedsq/2 2.2b
* Origin: Lafayette, IN. (1:201/20.2)
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--------
From: Joe Slater
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 30 Dec 93 16:18:00
--------
EID:0732 1b9e8240
Monday December 20 1993, Dr Pepper writes to Anson Kennedy:
DP> I saw Pat Robertson holding forth on this case on his 700 Club. He
DP> declared it an unconscionable interference with the rights of the
DP> woman. Considering that the legal action is being pursued on behalf
of
DP> the fetus, i find his opinion deliciously ironic.
His position seems eminently sound: both the mother and the child have rights,
and neither can be forced to undergo treatment that will harm them.
jds
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: What horrors wait for me in this, the Phantom's Opera? (3:632/351)
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PATH: 102/851
--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 26 Dec 93 20:45:01
--------
EID:6fe3 1b9aa5a0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2d1df865
REPLY: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG b114748e
Hello Dr!
In a msg of Monday December 20 1993, Dr Pepper said all this to Anson Kennedy:
DP> On 17 Dec 93 10:32:48, you wrote to David Bloomberg about "Illinois
DP> Fundamentalist".
>> fetus will be
>> born dead or severely brain-damaged if the woman doesn't have a
>> C-section
....
>> My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this
>> case?
DP> I saw Pat Robertson holding forth on this case on his 700 Club. He
DP> declared it an unconscionable interference with the rights of the woman.
DP> Considering that the legal action is being pursued on behalf of the
fetus
,
DP> i find his opinion deliciously ironic.
Now that is interesting, when I read David B's post of the Tribune article
I o
und myself thinking what a wonderful precedent it would make for pro-choice
ad
vocate trying to argue the rights of the mother over those of the fetus.
See Ya,
Jackson
--- FMail 0.96ā+
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--------
From: Hong Ooi
To: Beriah Octavius
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 23 Dec 93 13:58:33
--------
EID:c4bd 1b976f40
MSGID: 3:711/927.0 2d18fe76
G'day Beriah,
>> As Beriah Octavius said to STEVE QUARRELLA on 19 Dec 93 01:58:00:
BO> If the Human Brain can Proccess a series of noises and grunts
BO> Known commmanly as Language in as many differnt types as English
BO> japanese, german Idian, Fijian, Swahili, and a million other Dialects
BO> (including the many differnet inter-tribal ones then there is no reason
BO> that the human brain CANNOT interpret reverse language Patterns.
IMHO you have missed a small point. Before the human brain can
process English, Japanese, German, Indian, Fijian, Swahili or a
million other dialects, it must *learn* those languages. This
takes a *long* time, even for those with a gift for languages -
several months usually, and at best several weeks.
OTOH, many of the odder fundamentalist types seem to be saying
that average people can understand reverse-recorded messages on
heavy metal albums just like that . To me,
Japanese or German is just a series of unintelligible sounds -
the same applies for reverse-encoded messages.
BO> ... i'm just pointing out that it is perfectly logical that the
BO> brain Could handle reversed Speech.
Yes that's true. However, it would be a *totally* different
language to the forward version, and you would have to
learn it, just like any other language. I haven't seen any
reverse-English classes in school lately. :-)
BO> I mean Hey it can Vaguely handle Politicians! :)
Just barely :-)
BO> Joshua Norton
Cheers and Merry Xmas,
Hong
... Line noise provided by Telecom Australia!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Heaven's Door * 61-2-440-8937 * 2 lines * T.PEP V32bis (3:711/927)
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--------
From: Scott Hall
To: All
Sub: test 6
Date: 21 Dec 93 12:05:06
--------
EID:cc07 1b9560a0
MSGID: 3:711/931.2@fidonet 6e55828e
REGEED: 1.02u2
test 6
--- Ezycom V1.02
* Origin: A.L.I.E.N. BBS -Sydney Australia- Merry Christmas! (3:711/931.2)
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--------
From: Joe Slater
To: Hong Ooi
Sub: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 26 Dec 93 13:47:02
--------
EID:a0cd 1b9a6de0
Thursday December 23 1993, Hong Ooi writes to Beriah Octavius:
BO>> If the Human Brain can Proccess a series of noises and grunts
BO>> Known commmanly as Language in as many differnt types as English
BO>> japanese, german Idian, Fijian, Swahili, and a million other
BO>> Dialects (including the many differnet inter-tribal ones then
BO>> there is no reason that the human brain CANNOT interpret reverse
BO>> language Patterns.
HO> IMHO you have missed a small point. Before the human brain can
HO> process English, Japanese, German, Indian, Fijian, Swahili or a
HO> million other dialects, it must *learn* those languages. This
HO> takes a *long* time, even for those with a gift for languages -
HO> several months usually, and at best several weeks.
Foreign languages do not have a 1:1 correlation with English, and they have
th
eir own grammar. How long does it take someone to learn pig Latin? Ten minutes
? The brain is an excellent decoder, and I find that I can often regognise
ana
grams without having to consciously process the letters. It's by no means
impo
ssible that the same can apply to sounds.
jds
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: What horrors wait for me in this, the Phantom's Opera? (3:632/351)
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PATH: 102/851
--------
From: Mark Livingstone
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: A Reversal of Gravity
Date: 25 Dec 93 10:18:23
--------
EID:6deb 1b995240
MSGID: 3:623/680@fidonet 08827c60
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a1938e0b
On Nov 19 22:10 93, Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoNet wrote:
FR> Neat! Current spacecraft technology isn't limited by
FR> speeds attainable but by money which is unattainable. To
FR> get anywhere quickly within the Solar system, he would need
FR> to survive at least 30Gs. I wonder how his device will
FR> handle that little problem.
Call (815) 2536390 (or (074) 429280 in Australia) and get a copy of the
Dec93/
Jan94 issue of Nexus New Times magazine for a discussion of this exact topic.
cheers,
MarkL
--- Msgedsq/2 2.2e
* Origin: Christianity Out West BBS, Parkes NSW OZ, +6168 625145 (3:623/680)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 04 Jan 94 12:28:43
--------
EID:346c 1c246380
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
SQ> Oh? Did he, now? Can you provide some scientific basis
SQ> for this "tongues"?
I'd settle for a simple Biblical reference that gives book, verse
and chapter.
SQ> Do you have access to HOLYSMOKE? I would very much like to examine
your
SQ> claim there. This forum deals with testable claims, not outrageous
ones,
SQ> and we are tangentially on-topic here at the very best.
His is a testable claim. It's either contained in the written
record of what little we know about Jesus (the Gospels) or it
isn't. A nice, binary, pass/fail test. I don't have to search any
further than my concordance to tell you that his statement isn't
supported by the 'literature'.
I'm going to be turning on HOLYSMOKE with my next paycheck. (My
BossNode would do flips if I started getting packets that large at
2400 baud.) I really don't want to miss any of this.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Re: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 04 Jan 94 12:44:04
--------
EID:e5ff 1c246580
BB> I, on the other hand, am passionately grateful there's no
BB> evidence I have to take seriously for telepathy. I value
BB> my mental privacy something fierce, and am just as happy
BB> that there are parts of others' minds I can't see.
Even if people could only "broadcast" without "prying" it would be bad
enough.
On the echos we have flames, test messages, cross-posted messages,
off-topic foolishness and garbled messages.
On the LAN at work I get Dog-for-sale-or-adoption notices, garage sale
notices and the usual collection of memos that are part of any
corporate environment.
The USPS floods me with advertising for products and vendors I have no
interest in.
The last thing in the world I would want to add to this is having to
deal with telepathic pan-handlers while walking down the street.
*Spare change?* *Got any spare change?* *Spare change?*
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: David Brown
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: HOLOGRAPHIC INTERNONSENS
Date: 04 Jan 94 18:54:00
--------
EID:bca9 1c2496c0
PID: ProBoard 1.31 rSu
12-24-93, Fredric Rice to Luke Enriquez:
le> One of the problems I have found with _some_ Skeptics is that
le> they subconciously intend to disprove, even before they begin.
FR> Imagine that. Someone who adopts scientific method to
FR> test for validity.
FR> You do realize, I hope, Luke, that falsification is a
FR> major aspect of scientific method, right? If a claimant
FR> makes predictions about his or her claim and those
FR> predictions prove false, the claimant is either badly
FR> mistaken or is in need of some new tests.
Is it not a common complaint of believers that science has a
premeditated technique of finding an alternate, prosaic,
equally-unproven hypothesis and smugly walking away?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- ProBoard v1.31 [EVALUATION]
* Origin: Alien Biker Kat BBS (619) 277-4140 (1:202/1010)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Nessie the Sturgeon?
Date: 04 Jan 94 11:04:06
--------
EID:7a8d 1c245880
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39b38f80
Loch Ness monster could really be lost Baltic sturgeon
Associated Press, 1/2/94
LONDON--Forget the leftover dinosaur theory. The legendary Loch Ness mons
ter may be nothing more than a lovelorn Baltic sturgeon who blundered into
the
Scottish lake in search of a mate.
That's the conclusion of "Nessie" hunger Adrian Shine and a new study that
says the lake doesn't hold enough fish to keep a full-fledged monster alive.
A comprehensive review of the ecology of Loch Ness, soon to be published
i
n the scientific journal The Scottish Naturalist, discounts the possibility
th
at Nessie is a reptile of Jurassic Park proportions.
The last plesiosaur, or water dinosaurs, were fossilized 65 million years
ago when Loch Ness was still a giant ice cube. Scientists also say the
monste
r could not be an amphibian or a mammal.
About the only possibility that leaves is a large fish--the original theor
y when Nessie was first sighted in 1868.
"This is my favorite of the current theories," said Shine, head of the Loc
h Ness Project at Drumnadrochit on the shores of the murky lake in the Scottis
h Highlands.
Thirteen research papers to be published in The Scottish Naturalist conclu
de the total fish population of Loch Ness is only about 20 or 30 tons, making
it quite barren.
Following the rule of thumb that a predator can weigh no more than about
1
0 percent of the available food, that would mean the monster could weigh
up to
3 tons, or 6,000 pounds.
But scientists believe that there would have to be about 10 monsters to
fo
r a "viable population" -- a group large enough to continue reproducing
throug
h the generations. So, they assume, each monster would weigh no more than
abo
ut 600 pounds -- the size of a large sturgeon.
Sturgeons have long snouts that could be mistaken for Nessie's neck and
ha
ve a prominent dorsal fin. They live in cold northern waters such as the
Balt
ic Sea and occasionally venture into British seas. Sturgeons move from
saltwa
ter to fresh water to mate and spawn.
"It isn't impossible to imagine one of them blundering up the River Ness
i
n search of a mate and failing to find one," Shine told The Times of London.
"This is the sort of thing that could have started the tradition. But it
would be rather nice to think I am wrong."
Shine believes that most of the 4,000 reported sightings of the humped Loc
h Ness Monster are actually the wake of boats.
However, there have been several grainy photographs produced over the year
s purporting to show a long-necked or serpent-like creature, or indistinguisha
ble shadows and bumps that could be almost anything.
The 44-year-old Shine has been Nessie-hunting for 20 years. He led a $1.6
million expedition to try to find her in 1987, using sophisticated equipment
mounted on a fleet of boats. But the expedition produced only three tiny
inco
nclusive sonar bleeps.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Don Martin
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 30 Dec 93 10:09:44
--------
EID:8c39 1b9e5120
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d22a958
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d15a998
Hello, Don!
DM> To me, this comes across as just the sort of thing a collective
DM> memory might make of crossing the Asia-Alaska land bridge some millenia
DM> ago to get here--a dimly recollected "someplace else" that you cannot
go
DM> back to. I wonder how many such stories have "from the north" in them
DM> as a significant direction.
DM> In light of your research, how does this notion strike you?
It's possible. But I'm inclined to credit outright invention - the details
don't line up with a land bridge migration, and it's the details that matter.
(I am vigorously anti-reductionist when it comes to mythology.) Probably
some
weird things happened in the course of the tribes' settling where they ended
u
p - it is, after all, a weird universe - and the impressions became the
founda
tion for fresh creation.
But I could easily be 100% wrong here.
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Ron Ballew
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 29 Dec 93 20:45:36
--------
EID:7bf3 1b9da5a0
MSGID: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec6
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to J.j. Hitt <=-
SQ>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English
was
SQ>> spoken in Biblical times.
SQ>> Ralph would tell you that the answer is that Jesus and his
SQ>> spoke English. I kid you not.
Jesus spoke in tongues. That means that every person present
heard Jesus speak in his own language. So, if anyone there
spoke English, then they heard Jesus in English.
SQ> Considering that we didn't see "English" (and OLD English, at that)
SQ> until the 7th and 8th centuries, well, I want to see what Ralph has
to
SQ> say.
How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
only goes back about 5,000 years. There is evidence that there
were advanced civilizations that rose and fell prior to written
history. How do you know that English has not always been
spoken, then and now?
... There is only one civilized language.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: Home of The Lawton Astronomical Society (405)536-9582 (1:385/18)
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--------
From: Ron Ballew
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 29 Dec 93 21:06:29
--------
EID:504c 1b9da8c0
MSGID: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec7
-=> Quoting John Jeanneault to Dave Stein <=-
JJ> Since the nearest galaxies to us are at least 170,000 light years
JJ> away, I don't think that there is much chance of a visit, considering
JJ> the size of the universe, and our infinitesimally tiny status. The
JJ> nearest star in our own galaxy is about four light years away and the
JJ> chances of intelligent life having developed in such "close" proximity
JJ> to our own is really stretching the odds.
And people used to think that if you went over 100 mph that you
would die. And then, they believed that exceeding the speed of
sound was a death trap for sure.
Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed of light
is no doubt wrong too. If over 90% of the matter in the
universe is invisible, than 90% of it could be traveling
without light and much faster than the speed of light too. When
it is dark, you don't need light to travel.
I tend to agree with your "close proximity" theory though. The
chances of intelligent life having developed in such "close"
proximity to our own as Washington, D.C. is really stretching
the odds.
JJ> As far as "warp nine" is concerned...Stephen Hawking, an
JJ> internationally known and respected physicist, in his publication, A
JJ> Brief History of Time, tells us that since relativity implies that one
JJ> cannot travel faster than light, this means that it would take far too
JJ> long to travel between stars and galaxies, and the idea that we can
JJ> take a short cut through another dimension is only science fiction,
The correct title for the term "relativity" is Theory of
Relativity. It is only an idea that might be right, or might be
wrong. How does he know how many dimensions there are? He
doesn't!
"Space, time, and thought are not the separate things that they
appear to be." - The Traveler. Maybe when you learn how to
think you can travel through space and time freely.
In fact, I am on a thought trip now: to Earth. I think I am on
Earth; therefore, I am. When I leave Earth, perhaps I will
return to my place of origin, or somewhere?, sometime? else.
... Here, is "out there" to everyone else.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: Home of The Lawton Astronomical Society (405)536-9582 (1:385/18)
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--------
From: Jim Gifford
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Subliminal brainwashing
Date: 31 Dec 93 12:23:56
--------
EID:ead5 1b9f62e0
MSGID: 1:203/289.0 2d24602c
JG> Remember, folks, ALWAYS fill out buyer and market surveys.
JG> Just fill 'em out *weird*. Screw the bastards.
JH> hehehe...
JH> For the last two years I have been part of a 'market study'. I was
JH> given a bar code scanner and I scan all my purchaces, and phone them
JH> in weekly.
JH> I don't intentionally give them false data, but I'm far enough away
JH> from the norm to slant their averages somewhat.
JH> But, yes, vendors and manufactures want that data. Want it bad enough
JH> to pay for it.
My local supermarket video screens on the carts that display news and a
market
directory. As you walk around with a cart so equipped, little transmitters
on
the ceiling feed it position data (on about a ten-foot grid).
Although this positioning is used partly to flash ads on the screen for
produc
ts at hand, the shopper's track through the store is recorded and matched
to t
heir purchases.
I absolutely refuse to use these carts. I'll wait for a plain cart or go
halfw
ay across the parking lot for one. (A friend suggested that we all should
let
our small children push the carts. THAT would screw 'em up.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 31 Dec 93 02:17:20
--------
EID:4173 1b9f1220
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9f27d71b
JH> I'm still at a loss as to how OLD English enters into this. The KJV
JH> Bible isn't written in Old English, it's Modern English (granted in
JH> a somewhat arcaic style, but essentially the same language we speak
JH> today). Even Chaucer (14th century), though damned near unreadable
JH> in the original is still 'Modern' English.
Well, Middle English, anyhow.
JH> Kindly disregard this message.
Dinna fash thyself about it, lad. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertising
Date: 31 Dec 93 02:21:49
--------
EID:e533 1b9f12a0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9f27d81b
JG> Remember, folks, ALWAYS fill out buyer and market surveys. Just fill
JG> 'em out *weird*. Screw the bastards.
Yayyy! Allll righhhttt! Man after my own heart. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Don Kemerling
Sub: Re: Skepticism as a philo
Date: 31 Dec 93 02:38:27
--------
EID:ae6a 1b9f14c0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9f27d91b
DK> Paul Kurtz is not starting a philosophical movement called
DK> skepticism. His philosophical movement is called secular humanism,
DK> and he's not giving it up.
His book would seem to suggest that he is trying to confuse the two.
Officers of the skeptics' organisations just about uniformly consider
this a particularly dumb idea. Plainly, Kurtz thinks otherwise. He
has been repeatedly warned, for year, of the increasing discomfort with
which such officers have regarded these efforts. He seems not to care.
This book is only the _latest_ episode in a long affair.
DK> Skepticism is a key ingredient, because of the epistemological
DK> component of secular humanism.
The conclusion (the lead phrase) is both false on its face, and a
non-sequitur from the allegdly supporting phrase that follows.
Skepticism is not an ingredient _at all_ of secular humanism. I know
a considerable number of secular humanists who cannot fairly be classed
as skeptics in the slightest. The two really have nothing to do with
one another, in that they address extremely diverse questions: One can
address humanist values and be secular without the _slightest_
attraction to the use of critical inquiry on fringe-science claims of
fact. Conversely, one can have the latter attraction with utter
disregard for humanist values and secularism.
DK> Any confusion cannot be blamed on Prof. Kurtz.
To the contrary, just about 100% of it is traceable directly to him.
I've never seen it originate with anyone else. Have you?
DK> You seem to forget, but he also heads an organization called
DK> CODESH, and THE NEW SKEPTICISM is qite relevant to this
DK> organization.
I am extremely well aware of the relevance of the work to the Council
for a Democratic and Secular Humanism, as a tract. I'm quite
astonished that you would think me _unaware_ of this! Why would you
conclude that I "seem to forget" this?
What an extraordinary statement. My goodness!
DK> I think CODESH and the ASHS groups, one of which I belong to, are
DK> willing to do all the work and take all the heat that might be
DK> associated with THE NEW SKEPTICISM.
Why should you take the blame, when you're not the one committing the
damage? ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Martin
Sub: This should prove interesting
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:19:49
--------
EID:27c0 1c275a78
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b4259
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d2462ba
PID: FM 2.02
db> Oh, by the way, the State of Illinois will start granting licenses
db> to naprapaths in 1994. I wonder how they will determine who should
db> be authorized to move these strange
db> energies through people's bodies.
FR> This should be interesting.
dm> Curiously enough, my father was a naprapath, getting his degree or
dm> whatever the hell it was around 1933 in Chicago (the only place at the
dm> time that HAD any "schools of naprapathy"). His thing was "drugless
dm> healing by ligamental adjustment" and it was the only health care I
ever
dm> received until I joined the Army.
No innoculants were administered to you shortly after your birth? Polio,
mump
s, diptheria... No vaccinations at all? When _did_ public schools start
to r
equire innoculations for admittance?
dm> After all these years, one wonders why the State is finally
dm> getting around to licensing the product of these tax-paying
dm> schools. Or has the definition of this particular practice
dm> changed whilst my back was turned?
I hold not any clues. I had hoped that David Bloomberg would comment upon
wha
t the practice includes.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:30:20
--------
EID:2818 1c275bca
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b425a
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims
SQ> that English was spoken in Biblical times.
I still recall fondly this special moment.
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues.
Well, don't we all? Until the age of two or three? Except:
sq> This forum deals with testable claims, not outrageous
sq> ones, and we are tangentially on-topic here at the very best.
The subject/topic of speaking gibberish and calling it "tongues" _is_ a
testab
le and already falsified belief -- as I'm sure you know. There have been
form
al inquiry into the phenomena as well as informal. (Austin Miles and Don
Funb
erg(sp!) The claim that a hero from Mithratic mythology engaged in such
babbl
e remains untestable.
RB> That means that every person present
RB> heard Jesus speak in his own language.
I have never heard a justification for this practice until now.
Lingu
isticallly is passes verbal communication and becomes the venue of psychology
-- if people hear exactly what they expect to hear, that is.
RB> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations
RB> that rose and fell prior to written history.
Oh no. The claims get ever more bizzare. Ancient space-traveling cultures
th
at errected monuments on the moon, perhaps? That's a fairly common claim
yet
I've not heard it include Mithratic mythology before.
sq> You're not a scientologist, are you? Is it your claim that some
sq> "advanced civilization" spoke English, and after this advanced
sq> civilization disappeared (scooped up by the Borg, no doubt),
The Borg could explain a great deal, yes.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:40:07
--------
EID:e730 1c275d03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b425b
PID: FM 2.02
RM>> It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
CW>> There's only one problem: I'm not one.
DM> Your lack of qualifying membership in that august group does not
DM> cleanse the gambit of its error. (Ya don't havta be Jewish, etc. .
.
cw> (Since you intrude)
There might be some virtue in asking your System Operator abour what echo
mail
is and how it is used. It is a broadcasted forum spanning Europe, the U.
S.
A., Australia, and Germany. No one "intrudes" into a public and open discussi
on.
Hopefully that's cleared up some.
cw> Are you saying that since I don't admit to being a Jew that
cw> I'm not qualified to comment on the Holocaust?
If you know anything about the Holocaust, anything you would care to pontifica
te upon in reguards to the Holocaust would be welcome in this forum were
there
paranormal claims attached to it. (Such as to suggest that it never happened
, for instance.)
However, your claim is that evolution doesn't seem to happen. That is equal
t
o the audacity of suggesting that gravity doesn't happen. Further; your
claim
was that evolution must be subject to debate or opinion because there are
the
ories which attempt to describe evolution.
The inability to discern the fact of evolution and the theories of evolution
i
s a common creationist failing -- a failing which is mandated by dogmatic
adhe
arance to classical Christian mythology, not fact.
cw> (Lordy, I dared to dispute Rick M.)
With an unreasoned, occult claim. Such things _are_ the subject of inquiry
he
re, Charlie. It should be expected.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:49:03
--------
EID:a92d 1c275e21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b425c
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d24269b
PID: FM 2.02
bb> Hello, Fredric!
Hey! It's Bruce! Look, everyone, Bruce is here!
bb>> The Osage say that their ancestors came from the northern stars,
bb>> and that though they _look_ like other people, they're really
bb>> very different.
FR> Are the decendants mutations or was there some judgement passed down?
bb> Naturally enough, the Osage didn't _have_ the concept of mutation. I
bb> think that their idea would be more along the lines of parallel
bb> evolution - the octopus eye and the human eye, and all that.
If that's the case then they employed some reasoning into their myths --
and a
little animal dismemberment. Years ago I had read a quick study
of
a variety of myths where judgement is case down upon the proto-humans by
deiti
es and nature itself. The punishments are at times laughable. The females
lo
ss of a penis for handeling forbidden snakes, for instance, is one that
I can
recall.
bb>> Sometimes I'm tempted to post that in alt.alien.visitors...
FR> Would the participants within that forum consider it as evidence, I
FR> wonder?
bb> Very likely. Then I sell them Ocean Energy Healing Crystals.
To sprinkle on their pizza, no less.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:57:08
--------
EID:3fb7 1c275f24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b425d
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d242788
PID: FM 2.02
FR> All rather well tested and unevidenced, of course. Which is something
FR> of a pity, in my opinion, as telepathy is such a wonderful make-
FR> believe.
bb> I, on the other hand, am passionately grateful there's no evidence I
bb> have to take seriously for telepathy. I value my mental privacy
bb> something fierce, and am just as happy that there are parts of others'
bb> minds I can't see.
There is that. Were telepathy valid, I would have expected evolution to
selec
t for it rather than for a verbal method of communication. And were that
sele
cted, I would also expect seclusion and exclusion of intruding thoughts
to be
part of the telepathic development.
Certainly I could fantasize that there would be individuals who could violate
the personal boundaries of others which would make them alpha males or alpha
f
emales.
bb> See Dan Simmons' THE HOLLOW MAN for a very nifty treatment
bb> of telepathy based on holographic memory, however.
I've read something on 'holography.' It seems more of a so-called "New
rAge"
collection of cure-all, explain-all pile of utter nonsense which attempts
to u
se scientific-sounding buzz words and phrases.
le>> Being in tune also plays an important part in experimental
le>> evidence, since you cant fit a square block into a round
le>> hole, can you?
FR> It's quite easilly accomplished when the round hole is big enough to
FR> accept the square peg. Scientific method is wide enough to accept any
FR> _testable_ claim. If the claim is not testable, it is unevidenced and
FR> so is false.
bb> Or, for that matter, if you push hard
bb> enough...which isn't proof, either.
Yep. Break out the emergency sledge hammer to make the theory
fit
the facts. Or the facts fit the belief. I wonder why 'LE' hasn't commented
further.
---
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Mann
Sub: Mutated
Date: 07 Jan 94 12:14:09
--------
EID:d816 1c2761c4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038b425e
REPLY: 1:105/95.666 8e683803
PID: FM 2.02
FR> We have an unusual fundie in the Abomination Echo.
dm> Being serious for just a moment
Now we'll allow none of that. }:-}
dm> : IS there such an echo, or if
dm> not, what is it REALLY called? Thanks.
There is a forum which reviews untestable claims associated with deity-oriente
d religious beliefs. It also takes a look into the origins of mythologies.
H
olySmoke by name and available on the Back Bone. (There are some religious
ze
alots who auto-delete the forum contrary to Policy yet the non-believers
in po
sited deities do not bemoan that act.)
Evolution and creationism are often reviewed with much biology, geology,
molec
ular biology, chemistry... Often it is merely a forum for asking a claimant
i
f he or she holds any evidence whatsoever to support their untestable claim.
Creationists rarely come through with anything new and exciting inb their
cla
ims yet at times it happens. (Water canopy beliefs are currently the rage.)
It's almost the anti-thesis of this forum. Here testable claims are reviewed
and discussed. In HolySmoke, this is done as well at times yet more often
we
find martyrs making outrageous and untestable claims. Hatred and intolerance
towards not-Christians, homosexuals, and even scientists is commonly observed
(Joe S., for instance, went into graphic detail about why he hates fags
and ho
w he is justified in doing so because one of his religions heros said they
are
'abominations.')
Oh: We also had a McCarthyist pop up. He claimed that the old Soviet Union
w
as "evil" yet couldn't explain why.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 07 Jan 94 13:01:44
--------
EID:1f03 1c276836
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038cc9e0
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d2675da
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Yeah? We've _still_ got people looking for
FR> The Fountain of Youth in Florida.
rb> The ones that are over 100 years old
rb> probably drank from it and don't know it.
<-blip-> I'm not sure what to make of this comment. People living past
40 ye
ars of age were uncommon not too long ago. People over 50 years of age
were c
onsidered ancient.
Are you suggesting that there _is_ a Fountain of Youth?
FR> I, myself, have searched for Amazon Women of the Avacado Jungle
FR> (for copulative reasons which should be obvious) so I shouldn't
FR> smile and nod my head knowingly too often when I see Arkers. }:-}
rb> Every man that has found the Amazon Women has not returned.
rb> He becomes a male slave you see.
Willing slaves, some say. And these women remove one of their brests, I
hear,
so that the can hold their bowstring close.
FR> Yet that's all rather mundane in light of
FR> people looking at bits and pieces of a
FR> mythological boat.
rb> Mythological boat? What do you mean. I read about it in the Bible!
I find myself amazed. To remain polite, I find I must remain silent. Honestly
I didn't know that people still believe in the story of Noah's Ark.
If you're interested, I could enumerate upon how the myth is impossible.
rb> There is even a VCR tape showing a part of it sticking
rb> out of a mountain in Turkey. The VCR tape is called "Noah's
rb> Ark", available at your local Video store (the better ones that
rb> is).
There are also VCR tapes showing bamboo flying saucers from another galaxy
try
ing to invade and take over the Earth. They, too, are sold around the world
i
n video shops which cater to old classical video tapes.
So we find that mythology is easilly set to film. Your conclusion is that
the
y are factual? How to you decide what VCR tapes to believe and which to
disco
unt as fiction?
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Subliminal brainwashing
Date: 07 Jan 94 13:03:53
--------
EID:247d 1c27687a
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038cc9e1
REPLY: 1:203/289.0 2d272b50
PID: FM 2.02
jg> (Gah- that's tasteless enough to have come from F. Rice...)
I saw that! I will beg Star Goat for your destruction. }:-}
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From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Creation Stories
Date: 07 Jan 94 13:10:17
--------
EID:5104 1c276948
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038cc9e2
PID: FM 2.02
bb> Lots of American aboriginal peoples have the same kind of story.
FR> So I've found. I was surprised that the belief is so common.
jjh> I'm not overly surprised.
jjh> The Aboriginal Teller of Stories who told his listeners that:
jjh> "we've always lived here, things have always been like this and
jjh> there aint nothing special about any of it"...
jjh> ...soon lost his audience and livelyhood.
And the songs would be rather dull. Bards couldn't sing of the dredful
and co
urageous doings of heros, deities, and mortals.
jjh> There could be a wide variety of reasons why a particular compass
jjh> direction would be common to tales told over a wide area. A common
jjh> origin is, of course, one of them. But I'd also look at the local
jjh> weather and the migratory patterns of local birds and game animals.
And living next to a river which can be expected to flood the village from
tim
e to time would be fairly common to a variety of cultures. I see your point.
Common environmental concerns develope common myths. That seems to make
sen
se.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:15:08
--------
EID:16dc 1c2771e4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038cc9e3
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Can you point me towards the correct issue to download?
FR> There are claims that the book existed prior to the birth
FR> of HPL and I seem to recall that this myth was a spin-off
FR> of one of the hoaxes.
jjh> Dont forget that there is a motion picture being made (or it may
jjh> already be out for all I know) called 'Necronomicon'.
Just wonderful. That's certain to bring the nutters out into the street.
jjh> Any claims circulating about the book or the rest of the Lovecraft
jjh> mythos is liable to be nothing more than promotional hype.
I'm trying to get the publisher and author names as well as the dates that
the
se three works came out. They are known hoaxes, appearing after H. P. Lovecra
ft's original work which included this fictional work and yet there are
people
in HolySmoke who actually believe that it was a work which existed long
befor
e HPL.
One claim was conspiracy-minded: Hitler managed to get a copy of the work
yet
it was taken by allied forces and hiden-away in the Vatican. There are
other
conspiracy-minded claims being made as well.
jjh> I'll be interested in seeing the movie and how "true" it is to HPL's
jjh> works. Though I'm fully prepaired to be deeply disappointed.
I couldn't even say which work HPL put this book into. Sadly, I find myself
t
otally without any facts whatsoever to support my posistion. Ah,
well
.
jjh> It always amazes me that folks who make the most noise about what a
jjh> written work says (be it the Bible or HPL or any of a wide variety
of
jjh> other works) almost as a rule have NEVER READ the material they are
jjh> making claims about. Rather they saw a made-for-TeeVee movie, read
a
jjh> highly popularized article on it or the ever popular "heard about it
jjh> from a friend".
That's been one of my pet complaints -- or a Hobbie Horse. You probably
have
seen it enough times even though I've not seen you in HolySmoke; yet there
are
claims made about both HPL's works and Anton Lavey's(sp?) "Satanic Bible"
whi
ch are bantered back and forth - yet the claimants talk about things that
are
not even in such works.
jjh> What's most interesting is the one hoax copy (didn't know there were
jjh> two others) I have of the Necronomicon doesn't include any of the
jjh> material that Lovecraft supposedly "quoted" out of it.
Don't forget that the book is supposed to be written upon dried human skin
and
that if anyone reads it entirely, it drives them insane. I have also heard
t
hat there can only be one copy of the bookl in existance. Attempts to copy
it
, I've heard, fail.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:17:08
--------
EID:9c66 1c277224
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038cc9e4
PID: FM 2.02
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB> only goes back about 5,000 years.
Strange, huh? It seems that the belief in one mythology spawns a belief
in ma
ny irrational beliefs.
jjh> "How do you know when television first showed up? Written history
jjh> only goes back 5000 years. How do you know that television has not
jjh> always been watched?"
Why, "T. V. Guide" says it. I believe it. That's final. }:-}
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: This should prove interesting
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:20:47
--------
EID:4b6f 1c277297
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038e5550
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 398bc012
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Oh, by the way, the State of Illinois will
FR> start granting licenses to naprapaths in 1994.
FR> This should be interesting.
db> That's not exactly the term *I* would have used... :-(
Very briefly, what is involved in this practice?
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:26:06
--------
EID:487f 1c277343
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038e5551
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 39996379
PID: FM 2.02
FR> As I recall, BASIS carried a report on the origins of the H. P.
FR> Lovecraft book 'Necronomicon' and listed three hoaxes which were
FR> derived from his fiction.
db> Some people on ParaNet are talking about the Necronomicon, and how
db> powerful, etc. it is. I pointed out that it was a hoax written by
db> several science fiction authors, but I was either ignored, or they told
db> me it didn't matter, because it's the power that a person BELIEVES is
in
db> there, not whether it truly is or not.
db>
db> Huh?
"Yes I know but I don't care." So you're telling me that you have encountered
someone who knows that the book is a hoax and yet _still_ believes that
the b
eliever makes it real? Then same believer should -- according to that person
-- be driven even further insane having read it.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:30:19
--------
EID:3942 1c2773c9
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038e5552
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 39add1d9
PID: FM 2.02
RB> Mythological boat? What do you mean. I read about it in the Bible!
db> Oh, well, that's telling him.
Such a statement amazed me. And I read HolySmoke! I suspect RB may require
f
urther years to divest himself of childhood fairy tales.
RB> There is even a VCR tape showing a
RB> part of it sticking out of a mountain in Turkey.
db> Funny how they can't seem to find it now, eh?
They did! Jammal and his friend found it. Jammal even got a piece of it!
Sad
ly, the photographs were lost with his friend. <-sob-> A new martyr myth
is
born.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:36:23
--------
EID:53aa 1c27748b
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038e5553
REPLY: 1:201/20.2 08f1a63f
PID: FM 2.02
RB> If over 90% of the matter in the universe is invisible, than 90% of
RB> it could be traveling without light and much faster than the speed of
RB> light too.
js> Invisible to us, here. Get the difference? Not that visibility has
js> anything to do with not being able to cross the speed of light.
He is wrong in any event. If something is at %110 c and is heading towards
ou
r observation point, we wouldn't see it. If something is heading away from
us
at %110 c we would see it greatly red shifted. Also:
'Invisible' matter isn't. Perterbation theory would be used to find the
invis
ible matter -- just as it is doing in contemporary astronomy.
His claim that -- because we don't see mass traveling over the speed of
light
-- there may be masses which are is akin to his deity beliefs. Because
we don
't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:43:05
--------
EID:127b 1c277562
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038e5554
PID: FM 2.02
jjh> The last thing in the world I would want to add to this is having to
jjh> deal with telepathic pan-handlers while walking down the street.
jjh> *Spare change?* *Got any spare change?* *Spare change?*
They wouldn't have to ask that question. They would ask, "Can I have that
spa
re change in your pocket?"
Yet, still, evolution has favored verbal communication over hand oor body
comm
unication (cavet: with the exception of sexual behavior.) There is no
ration
al reason for considering telepathy as a parallell development when there
exis
ts zero evidence.
Woops: Hang on. This young woman wants to communicate with me.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Brown
Sub: HOLOGRAPHIC INTERNONSENS
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:58:15
--------
EID:2b78 1c277747
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 038ee018
PID: FM 2.02
le> One of the problems I have found with _some_ Skeptics is that
le> they subconciously intend to disprove, even before they begin.
FR> Imagine that. Someone who adopts scientific method to
FR> test for validity.
FR> You do realize, I hope, Luke, that falsification is a
FR> major aspect of scientific method, right? If a claimant
FR> makes predictions about his or her claim and those
FR> predictions prove false, the claimant is either badly
FR> mistaken or is in need of some new tests.
db> Is it not a common complaint of believers that science has a
db> premeditated technique of finding an alternate, prosaic,
db> equally-unproven hypothesis and smugly walking away?
It is a common though unfounded complaint. Science is a methodology and
can n
ot do anything to anything. People who employ the methodology attempt to
use
it upon theories and claims to approach the factuality of a thing. (Scientifi
c method is a convergent technology; it does not deal in truths.) Scientists
do not searched for "equally unproven hypothesis" to explain-away an unproven
hypothesis.
If you have encountered a scientist who does so, I, for one, would be interest
ed in hearing about him or her. Credentials would be interesting just as
much
as hearing about the unproven hypotheses.
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From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: The reall name?
Date: 10 Jan 94 09:24:38
--------
EID:9533 1c2a4b13
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 04931202
PID: FM 2.02
Marilyn has asked whether the name of the school you mentioned about the
articles in the Wall Street Journal might be incorrect. If it's actually
Whit
worth rather than Whitman then the articles are about a religious school
-- sp
ecifically, 7th-Day Adnonsense.
FR> * Forwarded from "Skeptic (Critical examinations)"
FR> * Originally by David Bloomberg
FR> * Originally to All
FR> * Originally dated 16 Dec 1993, 18:34
FR> I don't know if anybody's been following the stuff going on in the
FR> Wall St.
FR> Journal, but here is some of it. Below is an opinion piece that
FR> appeared on December 6, written by Stephen C. Meyer of Whitworth
FR> College in Spokane, Washington. In the next few messages are some
FR> info that is NOT contained in this piece. I would suggest you read
FR> them all before replying to any.
mb> Are you certain the name of the college is Whitworth? It sounds more
mb> like this came out of WhitMAN College in College Place, Washington,
mb> which is a suburb of Spokane. Whitman College is a Seventh-Day
mb> Adventist school from which my fundy friend graduated.
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From: James Williams
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Your Daily Chuckle
Date: 06 Jan 94 08:57:00
--------
EID:135b 1c264720
JS> RB> ... There is only one civilized language.
JS>Latin?
Sir, when Moses descended the mountain with two tablets
of stone, the Commandments neatly numbered in numerals
of the Roman system which still lay thousands of years
in the future, can you doubt that he had in his back
pocket a copy of the Bible? And that it was certainly in
God's own language, Elizabethan English? God is not
pleased when ANY translation other that KJV is seen to
be used. That is the explanation for such disasters as
earthquakes, the Mississippi floods, etc., and
furthermore I suspect that David Koresh used one of the
horrible monstrosities of modern translation; if he had
used only the King James, Yahweh would have stilled the
rage of the murdering Feds for sure.
--- FMail 0.96g
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From: James Williams
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: ...Out There.
Date: 06 Jan 94 09:06:00
--------
EID:b7fb 1c2648c0
JS> RB> The correct title for the term "relativity" is Theory of
JS> RB> Relativity.
The correct title for the term "relativity" is "the
Theories of Relativity."
We hold Special Relativity in high confidence because so
far it has survived many challenges.
We hold General Realtivity with more tentative
confidence for the lack of adequate testing due to our
not having the technology to test it... until now.
The Schiff Experiment, now in preparation at Stanford
University, will test it. It has taken thirty years pf
theoretical and practical work to design and build the
devices which will be launched into space before this
decade is out. It has cost 300 million dollars so far.
Within it are metal spheres whose perfection of
sphericity is higher than any known object in the
universe.
If the experiment confirms General Relativity, that
will add to our confidence that Big Al was right. Only
fundies think that experiment can "prove" some claim to
be correct.
If the experiement REFUTES the theory, it will send
shock waves through physics and call for new insights.
Isaac Newton time, guys.
--- FMail 0.96g
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From: Dave Horn
To: James Bryant
Sub: Subliminal Advertising
Date: 07 Jan 94 18:03:00
--------
EID:4c6b 1c279060
JB> Ahh, that's the title. Thanks so much.
>
> Returning to the conversation, "Hidden Persuaders" had a very long
> dissertation on, not the validity, but the existance of subliminal
> advertising. He did feel that the "subliminal" sections of the
> advertisement did do something, but not necessarily promote the product
> any more than straight advertising did.
I have a confession to make.
I never read the thing -- didn't want to imply that I had. ;-)
I recall the title from a skit done by Bob Newhart. He did a couple of
stand-up comedy albums in the early 60's and did a routine in which he
referred to "The Hidden Persuaders." Oddly enough, I don't remember the
routine.
We did discuss this sort of thing in a psychology class and this title came
up again then.
I don't really put much stock in this sort of thing. But I just thought
I'd throw the title out to see if it helped. And you are much welcome.
-- SPEED 1.30 [NR]:
--- FMail 0.96g
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From: David Brown
To: Mark Smith
Sub: HOLOGRAPHIC INTERNONSENS
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:59:00
--------
EID:6548 1c288760
PID: ProBoard 1.31 rSu
01-06-94, Mark Smith to David Brown:
Hi Mark. Thanks for responding.
MS> DAVID BROWN said to FREDRIC RICE:
DB> Is it not a common complaint of believers that science
DB> has a premeditated technique of finding an alternate,
DB> prosaic, equally-unproven hypothesis and smugly walking
DB> away?
MS> To be honest, I have not heard this complaint, although
MS> it may well be common. But it's not much of a complaint,
MS> since this is merely science doing what it is supposed to
MS> do.
People are often saying, "Science thinks it knows everything
and if it has no explanation, it will call it "[swamp
gas,etc.]"
MS> (Except for the "smugly walking away" part. That's
MS> simple discourtesy. However, while scientists are just
MS> as prone to smugness as anyone else, it's a mistake to
MS> think that being smug has anything to do with scientific
MS> method. Just the opposite, in fact.)
MS> At any rate, given an unexplained phenomenon, it's a wise
MS> scientist who looks for the simplest, most ordinary
MS> explanation that fits existing data. That's the
MS> principle of Occam's Razor, which says that if two
MS> theories fit known data equally well, the smart thing is
MS> to give preference to the theory that requires fewer
MS> assumptions to be made.
Yes, for selecting a hypothesis. But not for "disproving"
another hypothesis. That's the crux of the issue; some people
try to in-effect disprove (as opposed to actually disprove)
someone's hypothesis by offering one that requires less
assumptions.
MS> In other words, prosaic is good. Prosaic works. Or in
MS> the words of Mark Twain, "It's one thing to keep an open
MS> mind, but it's another thing to let the geese run around
MS> in there."
:-). And the man died a bitter, existential cynic.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- ProBoard v1.31 [EVALUATION]
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 8 Jan 94 06:30:28
--------
EID:fad8 1c2833c0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2e99b0
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as J.J. Hitt shared a conception -- Necronomicon
-- wi
th David Bloomberg on 05 Jan 94 13:09:
JH> H.P. Lovecraft's fiction. Instead it was a compilation of plaigerized
JH> work from a variety of sources including the American VooDoo classic
JH> 'The Sixst and Seventh Books of Moses' (which in turn is little more
JH> than a compilation of earlier works).
JH> Can't any of these people come up with something ORIGINAL?
So long as they can sell such rehashes, they have little incentive to.
B
esides, not everyone is an L. Ron hubbard . . .
---
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Skeptics on Oprah?
Date: 06 Jan 94 23:51:09
--------
EID:aee1 1c26be60
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2d2cf0f9
-=> Quoting David Bloomberg to All <=-
DB> My wife told me that today (1/3) on Oprah, the show was devoted (at
DB> least the part she saw) to skeptics and skepticism on various
DB> subjects.
DB> We just got a new VCR, and she didn't know how to tape yet. :-) Did
DB> anybody out there see it and/or tape it?
My local paper said it was a show on near death experiences. I'll
bet she had Barry Beyerstein on there, who is a skeptic and runs
the Brain Behavior Lab at Simon Fraser University. She had him
on a couple of weeks ago, just briefly, to give another opinion
on claims about communicating with the dead. I have heard him
lecture on near death experiences, which he says are actually
normal brain functions, given the stress the brain is under
when it is shutting down.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.96/RA 2.01+
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--------
From: Philip Brooks
To: All
Sub: Skeptic Revelations
Date: 06 Jan 94 19:47:04
--------
EID:fed2 1c269de0
MSGID: 1:343/75.0 2d2cdb38
The Computer Party
The Computer Party unites our community of computer users
in all professions, all social classes, all races and all diversities.
By utilizing breakthroughs in computer education and communication
we purpose dramatic and effective new solutions
to problems other political parties just spend money "at".
The Computer Party is an organization committed
to using all available technologies to foster a new kind of democracy
in America by giving a voice to each and every American.
Through reforms in government and political campaigns,
the Computer Party will remove the incentives of elected officials
to go to Washington and live on perks,
corruption, and exorbitant government salaries.
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of all Americans by 50 percent.
The Computer Party is committed to ending government waste
of our tax dollars by down sizing governmental bureaucracy
and putting an end to the "business as usual" attitude of government.
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and employment opportunities to every American.
The Computer Party is committed to ending crime in our streets
and neighborhoods.
The Computer Party is committed to ending the homeless problem in America.
The Computer Party is committed to empowering the American family,
and ensuring every citizen the right to own a home, raise a family,
and enjoy all the educational opportunities available in America.
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of economic growth and prosperity by protecting American jobs
and American industries.
The Computer Party will provide a new and supportive infrastructure
for family businesses and entrepreneurial venture.
The Computer Party is the only political party which recognizes
the serious problem of electronic information privacy
and the rights of each American to personal information security.
The Computer Party is the only political party committed
to fulfilling the needs of all Americans
in this new Age of Computers and Communications.
Connectivity is our vehicle.
Community holds us together.
Communication is the process.
We welcome all members.
We welcome all viewpoints.
We celebrate diversity.
Welcome to
The Computer Party.
If you would like to learn more about the new solutions
for the future of America, call:
(206) 328-6229
2400 8-N-1
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Chuck Dubman
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:22:42
--------
EID:8fe8 1c2892c0
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f3232
SQ>>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that
SQ>>> English was spoken in Biblical times.
RB>> Jesus spoke in tongues.
And corned beefs and pastramis and kosher dills....
JS> Ah, how about it showed up a darn bit sooner than 5,000 years
JS> ago.
SQ> The English language isn't even a thousand years old at this point.
English 1000 years ago wasn't even close to the English we speak today.
Any a
rgument, I refer you respectfully to Jeff Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, "The
Mil
ler's Tale" specifically, in the original Middle English. Or try Beowulf,
the
oldest known English story (if those wacky fundy bookbanners haven't petition
ed to have it purged from you local High School. Demonic refernces, you
know.
..).
RB>> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations that rose
RB>> and fell prior to written history.
JS> There is? Could you present us with some of this evidence?
Advanced civilizations are based on sharing information between individuals
an
d generations. To do this precisely requires written storage of data and
the
ability to retrieve it. Illiterate cultures cannot thus be considered advance
d. No civilization can advance without the benefit of writing.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Chuck Dubman
To: Mark Smith
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:37:36
--------
EID:5495 1c2894a0
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f35b0
REPLY: 1:280/335 8622B674
MS> Butting in to a conversation between DR PEPPER and DAVID BLOOMBERG:
DP> Our friend, Bob Larson (the militant fundamentalist radio
Doesn't Bob draw "The Far Side"? That strip's one of my faves.
> personality) seems to believe that the Necronomicon exists,
> that Cthuluh, Nyarlethotep & Co are real demons, and that
> HPL's works were the result of automatic writing.
MS> Good lord, Doctor, did he really say that? I suppose he has his
MS> reasons. I must have underestimated the power of hysterical
MS> ranting to attract financial contributions.
Abdul Alhazred said it, I believe it, that settles it...
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Don Martin
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 2 Jan 94 06:32:03
--------
EID:39a8 1c223400
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26b251
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d23aec6
A pregnant pause ensued as Ron Ballew shared a conception -- Your daily
chuckl
e -- with Steve Quarrella on 29 Dec 93 20:45:
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB> only goes back about 5,000 years.
Right. And since English is less than 1000 years old, we have plenty of
documentary evidence for its origins and development. That's how we know
when
it first showed up.
RB> There is evidence that there
RB> were advanced civilizations that rose and fell prior to written
RB> history. How do you know that English has not always been
RB> spoken, then and now?
No more than we can know for sure that there is not an invisible pink hip
popotamos named Daisy in Martin Goldberg's back yard. The chances against
eit
her possibility are, however, pretty good. In fact the odds against two
insta
nces of the same language forming at two widely separated times are probably
g
reater than those against the existence of Daisy.
---
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: YOUR DAILY CHUCKLE
Date: 04 Jan 94 09:50:00
--------
EID:6c8d 1c244e40
-=> Quoting Ron Ballew to Steve Quarrella <=-
RB> Jesus spoke in tongues. That means that every person present
RB> heard Jesus speak in his own language. So, if anyone there
RB> spoke English, then they heard Jesus in English.
You'll need to provide some proof on that one. I don't recall it
anywhere stated that he spoke in tongues. Heaven forbid, I'm
going to actually check it out, but as is said: I don't think so, Tim.
RB> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB> only goes back about 5,000 years. There is evidence that there
RB> were advanced civilizations that rose and fell prior to written
RB> history. How do you know that English has not always been
RB> spoken, then and now?
"only" 5000 years? A bit of study in the English language and you'd
not say silly things like that. English as we know it has a tremendous
amount of borrowed words, even in recent times.
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: J.J. Hitt
To: Fred Hatfield
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 09 Jan 94 15:47:08
--------
EID:2c5b 1c297de0
FH> Rick, that just doesn't sound like J.J. -- and the
FH> initials are JH -- are you sure you got the right guy?
Oh, it's me alright...
And in character.
I'm just learnin' the rules by testing the limits.
--- EZPoint V2.2
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From: Jackson Harding
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Salman rushdie
Date: 07 Jan 94 04:48:00
--------
EID:fd7b 1c272600
Hello Tyler!
In a msg of Friday November 19 1993, Tyler A. Wunder said all this to Mark
Smi
th:
TAW> Any recent news on Rushdie's status? Anybody?
Still in hiding in the UK. Venturing out a little more regularly and making
t
he odd, unannounced public appearance, such as at a recent U2 concert when
he
was the person recieving the now famous phone call. Bono asked him where
he wa
s to which he replied "closer than you imagine" and shortly later after
being
asked to reveal where he was he walked on stage to rapturous applause.
He has also made a few ventures overseas recently, although a lot of airlines
still refuse to carry him. He has not had any offical protection from the
UK
government for some time and apparently has moved house a number of times
as a
security measure.
See Ya,
Jackson
--- FastEcho 1.30/g
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From: Jackson Harding
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 07 Jan 94 04:47:00
--------
EID:7803 1c2725e0
Hello Steve!
Sunday November 21 1993, Steve Quarrella writes to Don Martin:
SQ> You might want to see a previous message to J.J. in which I raised the
SQ> issue "How did Middle English evolve back into Old English and then
SQ> back into Middle English?" Of course, this issue is so blatantly absurd
SQ> that I'm surprised that Jackson hasn't laughed us outta here! :)
I am hoping the thread will die a natural death.
Bye for now,
Jackson
--- FastEcho 1.30/g
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From: Shawn Daudel
To: Norm Berls
Sub: CONTINUED DISCUSSION
Date: 04 Jan 94 01:04:00
--------
EID:e21c 1c240880
-=> Quoting Norm Berls to Shawn Daudel <=-
CD> I don't have physical evidence there aren't men on mars
CD> either CD> but, I have an open mind.
NB> I seem to be failing to communicate. Whether there are any living
NB> organisms on Mars is something that can only be known by sending a
NB> probe there and collecting evidence for analysis. Or we
NB> could go ourselves and collect the evidence. In any event,
NB> all we can do is attempt to prove that there IS life on
NB> Mars. In this attempt we can either succeed or fail. If
NB> we succeed we are justified in believing in life on Mars.
NB> If we fail we are not justified in believing in life on
NB> Mars. The idea that there aren't men on mars is a negative
NB> proposition. NEGATIVE PROPOSITIONS CANNOT BE PROVED. NO
NB> KNOWLEDGE IS POSSIBLE IN THE ABSENCE OF INFORMATION.
Judging by the opening and response, I feel you're communicating alright
but,
it's communicating with yourself that you're achieving. What I mean by that
is
that your points are easy to understand because your using logic to support
your opinions. I learned to do that too when I was a small kid watching
the
likes of Mr. Spock on Star Trek. I understand your train of thought. Pay
attention to my above comment: I don't have physical evidence there aren't
men on mars either but, I have an open mind. Now it says "CD>" and I guess
that's SD for Shawn Daudel. I'm not sure but, back to MY point.... I'm saying
I believe in the possibility of anything. Sure cold calculated facts are
nice
at first until the more likely possibilities come true. People used to think
it was reasonable to go to the moon even though no one had been before.
With
your way of answering conversations, if I were you I might say, well you
can
send a rocket to the moon and if it makes it we're on the moon and if not.....
we're not. Fine. You're right. I would've been the guy saying I bet we'll
make
it to the moon someday because it seems possible with what we know already.
Technology given a few years will put us on the moon NO DOUBT. I could've
been
wrong but, AGAIN I have an open mind. I could go through life only seeing
the
facts and never having the imagination to dream of things that are not.
To
you they don't exist. The next invention doesn't matter because you can't
prove it yet. Two people can be right also. Ofcourse what we were originally
talking about has been lost in the message to message vortex but, that's
life!
NB> You may think this is a trivial point. I assure you, it is not. Here
NB> is my proof. The legal system in this country is based upon the
NB> principle that a person is presumed innocent until proven
NB> guilty. The burden of proof is upon the accuser. If the
NB> burden of proof were upon the defendant... he would be
NB> charged with proving a negative proposition (i.e that he
NB> did NOT do something)... a logical impossibility. Could
NB> you prove that at 2:00 AM on some arbitrary morning about a
NB> month ago that you were not about town holding up 7-
NB> Eleven's? Maybe you had witnesses to your whereabouts at
NB> that hour on that arbitrary date. Most people in this town
NB> would have a difficult time proving their whereabouts.
NB> Most people would not be able to exonerate themselves from
NB> such a charge. If we demanded that defendants prove their
NB> innocence in cases like this, we would have one hell of a
NB> lot of innocent people in jail.
What you're saying is true. I might also talk about facts as well that have
nothing to do with the other guy's original statements. The sun is larger
than the earth. The moon is smaller than the earth. The rain forests are
diminishing off the face of the planet at a rapid rate. All true but, what
does it have to do with what you're talking about. NOTHING.
Let's talk about our judicial system for a moment while you're on the topic.
It's hard to prove your whereabouts when you have to have a witness. I can't
prove I just took a shit in a court of law but, nonetheless it's a fact.
In
a fucked up place like a court of law one could get hung if not careful.(I
mean that in the hung jury kind've pun way.) You've got a good point about
the injustice of our justice system. It's a farce at best. Do I have a better
alternative? Well If I thought about it maybe but, at the moment NO I don't.
It still sucks. Just like the witch trials you lose just about anyway you
go.
NB> Can I prove there are NOT invisible gremlins spying on you
NB> and me at this very moment? I cannot.
But, it's a possibility isn't it? Can't prove it until it becomes public
knowledge. You could try to prove it to me by showing me one of them but,
most
people wouldn't believe us even with proof. They would call it a hoax and
most likely the government would take our little lab specimen and we'd never
see it again. We'd probably also have our names smeared and lose any credi-
bility we'd earned because the government wouldn't want it public knowledge
that little green men really exist. That's an extreme but, look at all the
stuff the government's been caught on already. It's hard to know what to
believe and what not to believe. I believe what I can prove too and not
what
the government tells me. I question everything will an official tone. It's
sometimes the hard way but, that's the kind've trust they've earned. It's
no one person or thing. It's an abstract, yes.
NB> Can I prove there are NOT flying saucers from other planets
NB> hurtling through our atmosphere at this very moment? I
NB> cannot.
Again, it's a possibility but, the proof is scattered and discredited. Look
what happened with Orson Wells radio announced way back in the day. He came
on and said it was a skit but, people who tuned in late still ran into the
streets freeking out, selling everything. If and I say If there were aliens
who crashed on earth or landed or whatever and I was in a position like
alot
in certain government jobs, I'd probably hide it from the public too because
the "children" of the earth just aren't ready for the truth. Any of it.
I say
that but, I know you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to any "on
high"
position.
NB> Can I prove there are NOT yellow widgets living in the
NB> center of our sun? I cannot.
This might be a possiblity depending on your definition of widgets. It's
the
least likely in my opinion though. It's hard to believe a yellow widget
lives
in the center of the sun because of the extreme heat. It would be burned
to a
cinder. You're trying though.
NB> I have a fertile imagination... I can go on forever listing
NB> things that I cannot disprove. I could write a computer
NB> program
NB> to generate a list of one million propositions that I
NB> cannot disprove. If I gave you such a list neither you or
NB> I would have gained any knowledge. YOU CANNOT PROVE A
NB> NEGATIVE PROPOSITION !!!! WORD GAMES INVOLVING NEGATIVE
NB> PROPOSITIONS GAIN YOU NO
NB> KNOWLEDGE !!!! WORD GAMES INVOLVING NEGATIVE PROPOSITIONS
NB> ARE THE MENTAL VERSION OF TWIDDLING YOUR THUMBS !!!! ALL
NB> THEY DO IS WASTE YOUR TIME AND MINE !!!!
Your point of proving a negative proposition is well documented but, what
it
has to do with believing in a posibility I don't know. The only time wasted
is the time it takes for you to not understand what others are saying and
the
time I've taken to acknowlege your point(realizing two people can be right)
and still try to get my point across. I know points fall on deaf ears with
you because you seem to hear what you want to and you also think so highly
of yourself. I doubt seriously you could generate a list of one million
any-
thing! GET IT?
NB> GET IT ?????????????
NB> I fancy myself to be an excellent communicator and teacher.
NB> When you keep making the same mistake over and over, it
NB> tarnishes that image.
I'm sorry bud but, the mistake is yours. The "excellent communicator/teacher"
image is tarnished I must say. I usually don't flame like this because people
generally understand my points but, when someone is so concerned with their
point they miss the points of others it gets me angry. I'm sure we're both
making points for our own benefit because that's human nature but, we sure
do
seem to misunderstand each other alot. The message thing is confusing enough
with long periods between messages and people not quoting previous messages
enough but, it's agreed you have your point and I have mine. I just choose
to
see your point without the same being returned.
CC> It's interesting to hear that you think Dan Rather's
CC> story is CC> the same as the one you're referring to.
CC> Possible. Wonder why CC> he'd get involved. Ahh, he's into
CC> stories.
NB> I can't say. I don't read minds. I do not categorically reject
NB> hearsay evidence but, I do regard it as distinctly inferior in
NB> quality to evidence that I can reproduce for myself. When
NB> the hearsay evidence comes from a single source, is about
NB> things totally outside of my own experience, and when it
NB> implies deficiencies in physical laws about which I have
NB> high confidence, I rate it at very very low quality.
Ok. Fair enough. You don't read minds. You don't reject hearsay or "eyewitness
"
evidence but, you regard it as inferior to the evidence you reproduce for
yourself. That was a single source of hundreds of people involved actually
including close friends of mine. It may be outside your experience but,
what
physical laws are being broken?
CC> I have heard the one about science having found a cure
CC> for the CC> common cold and it's being repressed because it
CC> would put CC> doctors out of business.
NB> I never heard that one. It sounds like a statist-altruist
NB> lamentation about the evil men will inevitably sink to when
NB> left to pursue their own selfish impulses. When I hear
NB> stuff like this my crap meter goes off the scale.
Well then, you must --- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Inner Sanctum - Six Lines & 10 GB (813) 848-6055 (1:3619/21)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Skepticism as a philo
Date: 08 Jan 94 23:04:28
--------
EID:48c3 1c28b880
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2d2f96ef
-=> Quoting Rick Moen to Tad Cook <=-
RM> In the current issue of _Skeptical Inquirer_ (just out), you will find
RM> not one but _two_ articles advancing Kurtz's idiotic notion that
RM> skepticism is an appropriate tool for questions of right living,
RM> politics, etc. (don't remember -- maybe carpentry, basket-weaving,
RM> winemaking, who knows what pursuits) that was posted to this echo
RM> earlier by Don Kemerling. The only qualifiedly good news in this
RM> embarrassing debacle is that the authors (one of whom is Kurtz, of
RM> course) are speaking for themselves alone.
RM> Again, as a board member of Bay Area Skeptics, I disavow this
RM> foolishness, in its entirety.
I'm gonna have to get that issue out again. I haven't read the
whole thing yet.
This sounds terrible. This kind of thing can really make us look
like a bunch of cranks.
So how much is CSICOP Kurtz's baby? Can the board exercise
any oversight over this stuff?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.96/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Skepticism As a philo
Date: 06 Jan 94 18:35:00
--------
EID:6f0f 1c269460
MSGID: 1:125/27 2926cd1b
On 01-06-94 RICK MOEN wrote to TAD COOK...
RM> In the current issue of _Skeptical Inquirer_ (just out), you will find
RM> not one but _two_ articles advancing Kurtz's idiotic notion that
RM> skepticism is an appropriate tool for questions of right living,
RM> politics, etc. (don't remember -- maybe carpentry, basket-weaving,
RM> winemaking, who knows what pursuits) that was posted to this echo
RM> earlier by Don Kemerling. The only qualifiedly good news in this
RM> embarrassing debacle is that the authors (one of whom is Kurtz, of
RM> course) are speaking for themselves alone.
RM>
RM> Again, as a board member of Bay Area Skeptics, I disavow this
RM> foolishness, in its entirety.
Isn't it fortunate that there are such right living people as Kurtz? I remeber
an issue of Free Inquiry, in which kurtz tried to brainwash people into
some
scheme involving centers for rational thought, or some such crap. he has
nifty
sounding words too, that are really hard to remember, or pronounce. One
person
told him that we already have such places, their called pubs.
Is this the kind of thing that separated BA Skeptic's from the national,
or
something else?
... OFFLINE 1.52 "don't say homeless, say forced urban suvivalist"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton
To: Joe Slater
Sub: Subliminal Advertisin
Date: 06 Jan 94 18:49:00
--------
EID:d8c1 1c269620
MSGID: 1:125/27 2926ce1b
On 12-26-93 JOE SLATER wrote to HONG OOI...
JS> Foreign languages do not have a 1:1 correlation with English, and they
JS> have
JS> their own grammar.
I don't get the correlation between the first and the second. What difference
does it make that there isn't a 1:1 correlation between one language and
another (where did you get the references to support this by the way, I
would
find their names fascinating!), and pig latin? Pig latin is a form of English,
it isn't a language. You have to already know English.
JS> How long does it take someone to learn pig Latin? Ten minutes? The brain
again, I don't get the relationship. Whether or not you can decode what
you
already know, or add to it, doesn't seem to matter much here.
is an excellent decoder, and I find that I can
JS> often regognise anagrams without having to consciously process the
letters. It's by no means impossible that the same can apply to sounds.
why is there a relationship?
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for theocracy! :) :) :)
:) :)
"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Dave Stein
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:17:06
--------
EID:80c8 1c287220
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d2ec0ff
REPLY: 1:205/20.0 2d2ad2dc
Hello, Dave!
DS> forgive my rash statments for I am a believer 'cause I've seen
DS> unexplained phenomenea, if science had an answer they wouldn't call
it
DS> unexplained or phenomenea. I am also despratly looking for any shred
of
I've seen unexplained phenomena, too. All it means is that there is not
_yet_
a solid explanation. Some unexplained things I was seeing in the mid-1980s
wer
e explained a few years later, when it turned autoimmune problems were doing
d
amage to my optic nerves, creating multiple blind spots. Explanations come
in
their own time.
DS> sarcasim. I appreciate your reply and got one question. Have you heard
DS> of any new developements in the construction of the radio telescope
DS> rumered to be used for searching out intelligent life? thanx
Rumored? It's a highly publicized fact that the big radio-telescope in Arecibo
sometimes does SETI work. So does the VLSA (Very Large Scale Array) in New
Me
xico (or one of those desert states). Are you thinking of the 9-meter visual
t
elescope going up in Hawaii, or what?
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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From: John Jeanneault
To: Dave Stein
Sub: out there.
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:31:10
--------
EID:9007 1c28a3e0
MSGID: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 405147ca
REPLY: 1:205/20.0 2d2acdec
Hello Dave!
On January 5 '94 you wrote to me:
DS> I happen to be in possesion of actual footage shot origanaly on 8mm
and
DS> transfered to video. Shot in 1978(?), this is actual mooving proof
of
DS> an UFO. It was studied by a team of Japanese scientists and film
DS> professionals who only after several complex test concluded that the
DS> film must be genuine. In fact the Japanese gov't was impressed enough
to
DS> release the film to the public. I have a copy and would happily let
you
DS> view it. No we don't see any ET's but the evidence is pretty
DS> conclusive.
There may well be photos and film footage of unidentified flying objects,
but
that does not necessarily mean that they were of extraterrestrial origin.
The
only photographic "evidence" that I have ever seen is the blurry indistinct
ty
pe of shots that everyone is familiar with. Even if clear detailed photos
exis
t, more proof than that would be necessary to prove unearthly origins. With
al
l the image processing technology at our fingertips...even the rankest amateur
is capable of producing or touching up evidence that could fool even "experts
". Anyway...in my last post I did not dismiss the possibility of intelligent
l
ife in other parts of the universe, I only expressed what most astronomers,
ph
ysicists, and cosmologists believe....that it is most unlikely and improbable
that we ever were, are, or will be visited by other beings, by virtue of
the f
actors that I pointed out in my post on this topic.
DS> If not from outer-space, assuming if it's not than it is man-made, why
DS> aren't we using this technology now? Incidently, it says on the tape
but
DS> I think the shots are from northern Europe or Sandinavia or something.
DS> Also shown are litarly 100's of stills shot from a 35mm. Take a look
DS> and
DS> decide for yourself, made a believer out of me. I
If the military are using secret experimental aircraft or space craft, then
of
course since the info is highly classified this technology will not be availa
ble for the use of the general public. Some of the aircraft that were being
ex
perimented with in the 60's were not made known to the public until many
years
later. It is naive to think that the same type of experimentation is not
stil
l taking place. Often the airforce will feign disinterest in UFO activity....n
ot because they are hiding ET...but more likely because they want to avoid
pub
lic interest into some of their own experimentation for security reasons.
Agai
n....the general consensus among the scientific community is that UFO's
are ju
st that...unidentified flying objects, most likely having their origin in
unex
plained natural phenomena or misinterpretation of our own technology.
Perhaps you could explain to me why an intelligent life form, technologically
capable of crossing the vast expanse of space at unimaginable speeds would
not
also possess the technology to remain undetected if that was their intention.
And if it was not their intention, then why are they not more obvious. Are
th
ey just playing peek-a-boo ?
The average person on the street may give assent to the idea that we are
being
visited by ET, but most of these individuals don't have any concept of time
a
nd distance when relating to the stars and galaxies. If they did, many would
p
robably change their thinking on this topic and agree with the general consens
us of scientists.
I love Star Trek...one of my favorite shows...and if ET did arrive it would
be
the high point of my life....but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'm afraid
we're going to have to solve our problems here on earth by ourselves. Thanks
f
or the reply....
sincerely.....John
--- April V0.994PBeta
* Origin: Eye Of The Storm (1:225/330.33)
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--------
From: John Jeanneault
To: Dave Stein
Sub: out there.
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:35:48
--------
EID:9007 1c28a460
MSGID: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 405148f0
REPLY: 1:205/20.0 2d2ad2dc
Hello Dave!
On January 5 '94 you wrote to Bruce Baugh:
DS> appreciate your reply and got one question. Have you heard of any new
DS> developements in the construction of the radio telescope rumered to
be
DS> used for searching out intelligent life? thanx
I think you may be referring to the Seti Program...The last I heard, was
that
the U.S. gov't was cutting the funds that supported this...does anyone out
the
re have the details ?
John
--- April V0.994PBeta
* Origin: Eye Of The Storm (1:225/330.33)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Necronomicon
Date: 09 Jan 94 17:51:00
--------
EID:6475 1c298e60
JH> Can't any of these people come up with something ORIGINAL?
DM> So long as they can sell such rehashes, they have
DM> little incentive to. Besides, not everyone is an L. Ron hubbard . .
.
(thud)
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 10 Jan 94 00:38:03
--------
EID:c1e0 1c2a04c0
CD> Advanced civilizations are based on sharing information
CD> between individuals and generations. To do this precisely
CD> requires written storage of data and the ability to
CD> retrieve it. Illiterate cultures cannot thus be
CD> considered advanced. No civilization can advance without
CD> the benefit of writing.
I have to react to that... though it's an anthropological issue and
with out doubt off-topic.
The process of specialization, the development of trades and
professions within a culture, handles the problem of
passing on the growing body of knowledge from generation to
generation. Writing is a spin off of this process and not a
pre-requisite.
Many civilizations developed writing only to never apply it anything
useful. An excelent example would be the Anchient Egyptians, who had
notable accomplishments in agriculture and architrcture (yes, I
honestly believe that the pyramids were built by egyptians). They also
possessed writing, but they never used it for anything more useful
than recording mythology and geneologies.
But the basic problem (I'm tempted to say TRAP) here is the use of the
word "advanced" as though it was an absolute benchmark. It's not. It's
a RELATIVE expression, you are "advanced" in comparison to something
or someone else.
And we can be thankful that no such litmus test or benchmark for
"advancement" exists, otherwise we would probably find that many of our
neighbors and family members wouldn't measure up.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Philip Brooks
Sub: Re: Skeptic Revelations
Date: 10 Jan 94 00:55:48
--------
EID:ae52 1c2a06e0
PB> The Computer Party is an organization committed
PB> to using all available technologies to foster a new kind of democracy
PB> in America by giving a voice to each and every American.
To paraphrase Willy Shakespere:
"First, we kill all the moderators."
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Ron Ballew
To: Dan Tosto
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 09 Jan 94 22:13:27
--------
EID:6ab4 1c29b1a0
MSGID: 1:385/18.0 2d30f8be
-=> Quoting Dan Tosto to Ron Ballew <=-
RB> Mythological boat? What do you mean. I read about it in the
RB> Bible! There is even a VCR tape showing a part of it sticking
RB> out of a mountain in Turkey. The VCR tape is called "Noah's
RB> Ark", available at your local Video store (the better ones that
RB> is).
DT> That was proven a hoax..The guy was an atheist who wanted to prove
DT> that Creationism was bunk..he proved his point very well.He provided
DT> the "documentary" film company with absolutely no hard evidence and
DT> baked up a crock 'o lies that were totally ridiculous..Yet the
DT> "documentary" film company believed the whole story without even
DT> asking once for a piece of evidence..I'm not surprised that the
DT> film is still being sold...I would love to get a copy of it!
The camera does not ask for hard evidence. It takes a picture
of what it sees. The VCR tape shows a portion of a wooden "ark"
sticking out of the ice on the mountain. The ark was split in
two by the last large earthquake in Turkey and a portion of it
is further down the mountain (also in the ice).
Maybe I could ask the VCR store to order a copy for you. I
don't have the equipment to copy it. Perhaps it will be
destroyed by the unbelievers and we will never see it again.
It is a pretty good film.
... Adam's navel and Arkansas are illrelvelant.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Ron Ballew
To: Steve Crawford
Sub: ...out There.
Date: 09 Jan 94 22:24:30
--------
EID:1a5a 1c29b300
MSGID: 1:385/18.0 2d30f8bf
-=> Quoting Steve Crawford to Ron Ballew <=-
RB> Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed of
RB> light is no doubt wrong too.
SC> How does this relate to the speed of sound? Despite the protests
SC> of the ignorant, it was known that we could exceed the speed of
SC> sound with small projectiles. No physical law was broken. There
SC> is plenty of evidence supporting, and none of which I am aware
SC> contradicting, the concept that the speed of light is an absolute
SC> limit. If you have some solid evidence that this is wrong, I'm
SC> sure that there are some physicists who would love to hear it.
SC> Maybe you can tell them how to chill something to below absolute
SC> zero while you're at it. We eagerly await this exciting new
SC> information.
There was no solid evidence that man could exceed the speed of
sound until he did it. There will be no evidence that man can
exceed the speed of light until he does it.
If time stops as you approach the speed of light, as some people
claim, then how does light get anywhere? If light continues to
travel, even though time has stopped, then the light gets there
instantly. If it gets there in no time at all, then it has no
speed limit. Obviously, these man made theories need some work.
Absolute zero is just a man made scale. The scale will be
adjusted as things get colder. When the temperature goes off
the scale you have to measure how many degrees are necessary to
bring it back on the scale. The concept of degrees probably
needs some work too.
... How do you measure an instant? In relation to what?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Jack Wilder
To: all
Sub: Waco trials already won by government fiat!
Date: 10 Jan 94 12:48:10
--------
EID:52a3 1c2a6600
MSGID: 1:147/18.0 2d31c562
-=> Quoting Bill Bauer@ to All <=-
Crossposted from AEN. Can anyone out there give me
some hope that our religious freedom is not completely gone.
BB> If any of you think that the Branch Davidians have any chance
BB> whatever to win at their trials coming up in San Antonio, think
BB> again! Not only are they apparently a rigged trial, but on November
BB> 16, 1993, President Clinton "proudly" announced that he had just
BB> signed into law a new religious freedoms act, and that this act
BB> would forever guarantee the religious freedoms of all Americans.
BB> I spent until just last nite doing all I could to come up with a
BB> copy of this new law, fearing the worst all the time. It looks to me
BB> like my worst fears were correct! Here is a portion of that law.
ATTENTION TO ANYONE INTERESTED IN LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY!!!
BB> Sec. 3. FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION PROTECTED.
BB> (a) In General.--Government shall not substantially burden a
BB> person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule
BB> olf general applicability, except as provided in subsection (b)
BB> (b)Exception.--Government may substantially burden a person's
BB> exercise of religion only if it demosnstates that application of the
BB> burden to the person---
BB> (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest;
BB> and
BB> (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that
BB> compelling governmental interest.
BB> Religious Freedoms Act? GIVE US ALL A BREAK!
BB> -!- Bill Bauer
BB> ... Catch SMOKER's echo on Family Tree on 1:147/32
GET IT? ANY THING THAT THEY CAN PASS A LAW GIVING TO US
THEY CAN TURN AROUND< AND TAKE AWAY, And I can see in the above
text the future of the U.S. without ANY religion not approved by
the legislature.
JW
... If Clinton is the answer! What idiot asked the question?OJW
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Bill Bauer
To: All
Sub: Religious Freedoms Act of 1993!!!
Date: 09 Jan 94 20:28:28
--------
EID:84ad 1c29a380
MSGID: 1:147/18.0 2d322f85
Public Law 103-141 November 16, 1993
Sec.3. FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION PROTECTED.
(a) In General.--Government shall not substantially burden a
person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule
of general applicability, except as provided in subsection
(b).
.....
(b) Exception.--Government may substantally burden a person's
exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of
the burden to the person--
(1) is in the furtherance of a compelling governmental
interest"
and
(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling
governmental interest.
.................
Furthermore, under SEC.5. DEFINITIONS.
As used in this Act---
(3) the term "demonstrates" means meets the burdens of going
forward with the evidence and of persuasion; and
(4) the term "exercise of religion" means the exercise of
religion under First Amendment to the Constitution.
..............
Furthermore, under SEC.6. APPLICABILITY
(a) In General.--This Act applies to all Federal and State
law, and the implementation of that law, whether statutory or
otherwise, and whether adopted before or after the enactment
of this Act.
..........
This is a real bummer! In fact, it has been posted that the chief of
the FBI testified under oath to a Congressional Subcommitte that the
Government has shut down 319 "cults" during 1993.
We all need to ring the phones off the walls of our Congressmen and
Senators expressing our anger and demanding that this vicious new
law be repealed instantly!
If we don't stop this mess now, you can just about expect the tanks
to roll up to the door of your church some Sunday and tell you that
they are shutting down your "cult" and if you don't leave, you can
full well expect your church to go up in flames next!
Just in case some of you don't get the point, all they have to do is
claim shutting down your church is in the "compelling interest of
the government, and your church is a gonner just like Waco, Texas
and the other 319 churches they already shut down without a whimper
from anybody!
In his 1992 campaign speeches, Bill Clinton made 3 speeches that I
saw in which he stated "We have more than 2200 religious cults in
this United States that present a clear danger to society. If I am
elected president, I am going to rid our society of these dangerous
elements"
Anybody think he was kidding or making "read my lips" speeches?
Bill Bauer
Moderator of SMOKER echo 1:147/32
... Catch SMOKER's echo on Daddy Yokum's BBS
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Monty Python's Flying BBS! (405) 524-3006 (1:147/18)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Don Martin
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 10 Jan 94 17:09:20
--------
EID:7ab1 1c2a8920
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Don!
2 Jan 94, dixit Don Martin ad Ron Ballew:
RB>> How do you know when English first showed up? Written history
RB>> only goes back about 5,000 years.
DM> Right. And since English is less than 1000 years old, we
DM> have plenty of documentary evidence for its origins and
DM> development. That's how we know when it first showed up.
This is when Ron counters that English was the product of some advanced
civilization. Of course, there is no basis for this claim other than
(perhaps) a copy of L. Ron Hubbard.
DM> possibility are, however, pretty good. In fact the odds
DM> against two instances of the same language forming at two
DM> widely separated times are probably greater than those
DM> against the existence of Daisy.
I wonder if he knows about the Norman Invasion. Are we to assume it happened
twice?
... Dogs come when you call. Cats have answering machines.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Michael Gomez
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 11 Jan 94 00:52:02
--------
EID:d8b5 1c2b0680
MSGID: 1:106/1393.0 2d31f832
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d2aa433
JJH> *Spare change?* *Got any spare change?* *Spare change?*
BB> Wow. That's a horrific thought. And they'd KNOW
BB> whether you had any...:-)
Yeah, so much for that "No, sorry, don't have any" look we all practice
in the
mirrors....
.sentry
--- Maximus/2 2.00
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--------
From: James Williams
To: David Brown
Sub: Holographic Internonsens
Date: 10 Jan 94 14:22:00
--------
EID:5538 1c2a72c0
DB> MS> In other words, prosaic is good. Prosaic works. Or in
DB> MS> the words of Mark Twain, "It's one thing to keep an open
DB> MS> mind, but it's another thing to let the geese run around
DB> MS> in there."
DB>:-). And the man died a bitter, existential cynic.
Which really PROVES he was mistaken, of course, since we
ALL know that the TRUE test of the veracity of your
beliefs is the SMILE on your face when you croak... So
to be doubly SURE of going direct to HEAVEN to spend
eternity with Jesus just remember to ask your nurse for
a triple shot of intravenous VALIUM, then you'll enjoy
the ineffable JOY of going DIRECT to the arms of Jesus
stoned but oh, so happy.... Hallelujah...
--- FMail 0.96g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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--------
From: James Williams
To: Mark Smith
Sub: Scientific Method
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:17:00
--------
EID:c405 1c284220
MS>DB> Is it not a common complaint of believers that science has a
MS> > premeditated technique of finding an alternate, prosaic,
MS> > equally-unproven hypothesis and smugly walking away?
MS>To be honest, I have not heard this complaint, although it may
MS>well be common. But it's not much of a complaint, since this is
MS>merely science doing what it is supposed to do.
MS>(Except for the "smugly walking away" part. That's simple
MS>discourtesy. However, while scientists are just as prone to
MS>smugness as anyone else, it's a mistake to think that being smug
MS>has anything to do with scientific method. Just the opposite, in
MS>fact.)
MS>At any rate, given an unexplained phenomenon, it's a wise
MS>scientist who looks for the simplest, most ordinary explanation
MS>that fits existing data. That's the principle of Occam's Razor,
MS>which says that if two theories fit known data equally well, the
MS>smart thing is to give preference to the theory that requires
MS>fewer assumptions to be made.
... And every practising scientist knows that when he
cooks up a new theory or experimental result he must
get it PUBLISHED, and his results will be avidly studied
all over the world be his peers, all the practitioners
who best understand what he is alleging...
... Who immediately crack open the champagne and shout
"Whoopee! An advance in knowledge! This is SUCH great
news!" NOT!
... No. They rush to their labs to see who can be first
to consign his new discovery to the round file, to trash
it and ridicule the guy, to show how sloppy a scientist
he is. [Remember "cold fusion"?]
SCIENCE ADVANCES BY DESTRUCTION OF THE FALSE, like
Michelangelo carved "David" by chipping away the marble
that was NOT supposed to be there.
The point is important, 'cos fundies fail to see it.
They perceive science as a process of adding on support
for your claim; scientists perceive it as taking away
support for false claims.
Observe how the creationists prate on about the SUPPORT
for their claims---hey, Joe Blow actually SAW the end of
a big wooden ship sticking out of an Ararat
mountainside! But I have never yet heard a fundie say
"If evidence turns up tomorrow which is incompatible
with the six-day creation story of Genesis, I am ready
to abandon my claim that Genesis records literal truth."
--- FMail 0.96g
* Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924 (1:202/212)
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--------
From: James Williams
To: Mark Bergner
Sub: General Relativity
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:38:00
--------
EID:cc52 1c2844c0
MB> Agreed... the "speed of light" is just a convinient label; it
MB>should be more accuately called the "limiting speed of the universe".
Correct. It is regrettable that the public assumes light to be
the significant part of the phrase, rather than "speed." Too
bad the originator didn't give it a sexier name than "c." But
then even the writer of a computer langyage seems capable of an
equally dumb piece of nomenclature, which forces the user to add
the word " langyage" to make it clear what he's talking about.
MB>Faster than light travel introduces some nasty paradoxes according to
MB>Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (which, BTW, has not been proven
MB>and is one of the weakest tested cosmological theories in existence--
it
MB>is very difficult to test out. Every test that it has been put to,
MB>however, has passed with flying colors)...
However, the biggie is in the works. The Schiff Experiment at
Stanford, already 30 years in preparation and costing 1/3
billion dollars, should be ready for space launch before the end
of the decade, and will specifically test GENERAL relativity.
"No amount of experiment can prove me wrong," says Big Al from
beyond the grave, "but a single experimental result could prove
me wrong at any time."
--- FMail 0.96g
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--------
From: James Williams
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Your Daily Chuckle
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:48:00
--------
EID:00e6 1c284600
SQ> RB>> ... There is only one civilized language.
SQ> JS> Latin?
SQ>Esperanto.
As a born and christened Episcopalian, who shares with
George Bush, Bishop Tutu and Princess Di, the full
confidence that when we reach heaven we shall be ushered
to the best seats in the house, let me assure you of the
little-known fact that when Moses descended the mountain
he carried in his pocket the Bible in the ONLY language
finally approved by God for the ELITE of the Earth,
Shakespearean English, the King James. Hebrew was for
the huddled masses yearning to grovel in the dust behind
their lost leader Moses, the Hitler of his era,
unelected tyrant, intolerant dictator and lousy
navigator, leading a mindless mob of welfare bums
dependent on their Manna Stamps to keep them from
starving, stick in the worst ethical system ever
devised, which makes mindless obedience into virtue.
--- FMail 0.96g
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Dan Tosto
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 10 Jan 94 07:02:15
--------
EID:ba9a 1c2a3840
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 3a0061e1
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 140205da
In a msg to Ron Ballew on , Dan Tosto of 1:229/15@fidonet.org
wr
ites:
RB> Bible! There is even a VCR tape showing a part of it sticking
RB> out of a mountain in Turkey. The VCR tape is called "Noah's
RB> Ark", available at your local Video store (the better ones that
DT>
DT> That was proven a hoax..The guy was an atheist who wanted to prove
tha
t
DT> Creationism was bunk..he proved his point very well.He provided
While I agree that it's probably a hoax or a poor video, he does not appear
to
be referring to the Sun Pictures show that aired on CBS. THAT is where
Georg
e Jammal did his hoax.
DT> the "documentary" film company with absolutely no hard evidence and
DT> baked up a crock 'o lies that were totally ridiculous..Yet the
DT> "documentary" film company believed the whole story without even
DT> asking once for a piece of evidence..I'm not surprised that the
DT> film is still being sold...I would love to get a copy of it!
You are pretty much correct in your summary of the incident (he did have
a pie
ce of "evidence" -- a chunk of wood that allegedly came from the Ark. In
fact
, he cooked it up in his kitchen!). However, like I said, that is not the
sam
e film.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Skeptics on Oprah?
Date: 10 Jan 94 07:04:34
--------
EID:581b 1c2a3880
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 3a006664
REPLY: 1:343/124.0 2d2cf0f9
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Tad Cook of 1:343/124 writes:
DB> My wife told me that today (1/3) on Oprah, the show was devoted (at
DB> least the part she saw) to skeptics and skepticism on various subjects.
DB> We just got a new VCR, and she didn't know how to tape yet. :-) Did
DB> anybody out there see it and/or tape it?
TC> My local paper said it was a show on near death experiences. I'll
A coworker of mine who was sick that day said the same thing. She had only
se
en the first half, and my wife only saw the second. I guess most of the
"expe
riencers" were in the first 1/2, and the skeptics in the second.
TC> bet she had Barry Beyerstein on there, who is a skeptic and runs
TC> the Brain Behavior Lab at Simon Fraser University. She had him
TC> on a couple of weeks ago, just briefly, to give another opinion
TC> on claims about communicating with the dead. I have heard him
TC> lecture on near death experiences, which he says are actually
TC> normal brain functions, given the stress the brain is under
TC> when it is shutting down.
I've seen his name around, but don't recall where. I know that I've seen
the
theory about NDE's being the brain trying to make sense of what's going
on a l
ot lately.
Thanks!
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Association for Rational Thought Online!
Date: 09 Jan 94 16:44:12
--------
EID:5334 1c298580
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2d30ae58
-=> Quoting David Bloomberg to All <=-
DB> The Association for Rational Thought (Cinci., OH skeptics group) has
DB> put out electronic versions of their newsletters. They are now
DB> running a BBS, but it is not hooked up to Fido (I'm not sure if it's
DB> hooked up to any net). Lance Moody, one of their officers, uploaded
DB> the newsletters to me here. They were in Macintosh's version of
DB> ASCII, so I went thru, reformatted the text to work well with IBM's
DB> and the like, and tried to catch all the weird control characters.
DB> They are now available for download or FReq here, at 217-787-9101 (new
DB> callers get download privs).
DB> Here are the file descriptions:
There is an ftp site that has a lot of skeptic newsletters, including
the Phoenix, SF Bay area, Atlanta and REALL newsletters. They
have an automated email service for those who don't have email.
I found out about it on the internet SKEPTIC mail list. You
interested in archiving your newsletters there?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.96/RA 2.01+
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out There.
Date: 11 Jan 94 09:48:46
--------
EID:3d43 1c2b4e00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Ron, I noticed that you failed to address my questions about the English
language and the allegations you made about its existence during Biblical
times. Can you come on over to HOLYSMOKE (or netmail) so we can continue
this thread?
... Brunette to blonde: "Look, dead bird!" Blonde looks up. "Where?"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Necronomicon
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:09:00
--------
EID:3918 1c256920
DB> Some people on ParaNet are talking about the Necronomicon,
DB> and how powerful, etc. it is. I pointed out that it was a
DB> hoax written by several science fiction authors, but I was
DB> either ignored, or they told me it didn't matter, because
DB> it's the power that a person BELIEVES is in there, not
DB> whether it truly is or not.
When I bought my paperback copy of the 'Necronomicon' I was deeply
disappointed that it made no effort at all to follow the mythos of
H.P. Lovecraft's fiction. Instead it was a compilation of plaigerized
work from a variety of sources including the American VooDoo classic
'The Sixst and Seventh Books of Moses' (which in turn is little more
than a compilation of earlier works).
Can't any of these people come up with something ORIGINAL?
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:19:00
--------
EID:3b7a 1c256a60
RB> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations that rose
RB> and fell prior to written history.
JS> There is? Could you present us with some of this evidence?
I had more than a few problems with this statement. Not the least of
which is the completely relative term "advanced".
Usually each civiliazation that rises up is more "advanced" than the
people they displaced, exterminated and replaced.
I also have a problem with the use of the word 'civilization'. The
world still has a few truely 'uncivilized' peoples who have nomadic
cultures that still display a high degree of sophistication and
specialization. They've developed the tools and skills to not only
live in their environment, but (as with the Inuit/Eskimo) to move out
into environemnts that would otherwise be deadly and hostile. If that
aint "advanced", I don't know what is.
Which is just one of the three dozen or so problems I had with the
original message: the term "advanced civilization" was undefined and
meaningless. It says nothing and leaves everything to assumption.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 05 Jan 94 03:09:00
--------
EID:c927 1c251920
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/r+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG 0282be9c
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 39996379
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> FR> As I recall, BASIS carried a report on the origins of the H. P.
> FR> Lovecraft book 'Necronomicon' and listed three hoaxes which were
> FR> derived from his fiction.
> Some people on ParaNet are talking about the Necronomicon, and
> how powerful, etc. it is. I pointed out that it was a hoax
> written by several science fiction authors, but I was either
> ignored, or they told me it didn't matter, because it's the
> power that a person BELIEVES is in there, not whether it truly
> is or not.
Our friend, Bob Larson (the militant fundamentalist radio personality) seems
t
o believe that the Necronomicon exists, that Cthuluh, Nyarlethotep & Co
are re
al demons, and that HPL's works were the result of automatic writing.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 04 Jan 94 06:37:51
--------
EID:3d50 1c2434a0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 102A8D3F
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Charlie Wilson really say something to Don Martin, on 30 Dec 93?
DM>> Your lack of qualifying membership in that august
CW> group does not
DM>> cleanse the gambit of its error. (Ya don't havta
CW> be Jewish, etc. . .
CW> (Since you intrude) Are you saying that since I
(You can't "intrude" on an EchoMail conversation)
CW> (Since you intrude) Are you saying that since I
CW> don't admit to
CW> being a Jew that I'm not qualified to comment on the
CW> Holocaust?
I read that he said that you do not have to be a creationist to use the
a
rguments they use. You don't have to be a mathematician to use set theory,
a
biologist to have sex, or a chemist to use toilet cleaners.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: James Bryant
To: Dave Horn
Sub: Subliminal Advertising
Date: 04 Jan 94 20:19:10
--------
EID:9239 1c24a260
MSGID: 1:128/158 862036DC
Ahh, that's the title. Thanks so much.
Returning to the conversation, "Hidden Persuaders" had a very long
dissertation on, not the validity, but the existance of subliminal
advertising. He did feel that the "subliminal" sections of the
advertisement did do something, but not necessarily promote the product
any more than straight advertising did.
--- WM v3.10/93-0937
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--------
From: Jim Gifford
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:59:46
--------
EID:f7a0 1c256f60
MSGID: 1:203/289.0 2d2ac7d2
JH> Even if people could only "broadcast" without "prying" it would be
bad
JH> enough.
JH> [...]
JH> The last thing in the world I would want to add to this is having
to
JH> deal with telepathic pan-handlers while walking down the street.
JH> *Spare change?* *Got any spare change?* *Spare change?*
You made me spray coffee out my nose! Do you have any idea how *much* that
hur
ts?
*I wish he'd put warnings in front of hysterical stuff like that.*
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289)
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--------
From: Lewis Marvich
To: Jim Gifford
Sub: Re: Subliminal brainwashing
Date: 04 Jan 94 21:05:35
--------
EID:a701 1c24a8a0
-=> Quoting Jim Gifford to Lewis Marvich <=-
JG> (A friend suggested that we all should let our small children push the
JG> carts. THAT would screw 'em up.
LM> Marketing for Midgets!! All the candy, soda, potato chips, twinkies,
LM> etc. would be displayed at 3 foot or lower.
JG> No, we'd end up with Barney everything (except for the Power Rangers
JG> condoms and Strawberry Shortcake premixed douche).
JG> (Gah- that's tasteless enough to have come from F. Rice...)
What do you mean "tasteless"? To me, it looks like a accurate observation
of
children and Madison Avenue! :^)
And which group is the more immature I don't think it's possible to tell.
... New Book: Science: Satan's Plot Against God and Man.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: >> Ubik: A Fully Degellerized BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Holographic Internonsense
Date: 05 Jan 94 11:27:20
--------
EID:754f 1c255b60
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d2aa433
Hello, J.J.!
JJH> The last thing in the world I would want to add to this is having
to
JJH> deal with telepathic pan-handlers while walking down the street.
JJH> *Spare change?* *Got any spare change?* *Spare change?*
Wow. That's a horrific thought. And they'd KNOW whether you had any...:-)
Bruce
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APā Online, Portland, OR: Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Skepticism as a philo
Date: 06 Jan 94 00:39:09
--------
EID:6f37 1c2604e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 2626cf1b
TC>RM> His book would seem to suggest that he is trying to confuse
TC>RM> the two. Officers of the skeptics' organisations just about
TC>RM> uniformly consider this a particularly dumb idea. Plainly,
TC>RM> Kurtz thinks otherwise. He has been repeatedly warned, for
TC>RM> years, of the increasing discomfort with which such officers
TC>RM> have regarded these efforts. He seems not to care. This book
TC>RM> is only the _latest_ episode in a long affair.
TC> I am annoyed by the apparent attempts to "marry" the two movements.
TC> One of the things that I like about CSICOP is its alleged
TC> non-position on religion, since religion is a matter of faith, which
TC> is non-falsifiable. This really saves we skeptics a lot of
TC> problems...problems that would be created by having to expend our
TC> energy arguing about religion, which to me is not very constructive.
In the current issue of _Skeptical Inquirer_ (just out), you will find
not one but _two_ articles advancing Kurtz's idiotic notion that
skepticism is an appropriate tool for questions of right living,
politics, etc. (don't remember -- maybe carpentry, basket-weaving,
winemaking, who knows what pursuits) that was posted to this echo
earlier by Don Kemerling. The only qualifiedly good news in this
embarrassing debacle is that the authors (one of whom is Kurtz, of
course) are speaking for themselves alone.
Again, as a board member of Bay Area Skeptics, I disavow this
foolishness, in its entirety.
Cheers,
Rick M.
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Steve Crawford
Sub: LOTTERIES
Date: 31 Dec 93 18:44:00
--------
EID:087b 1b9f9580
-=> Quoting Steve Crawford to Tyler A. Wunder <=-
DM> ROll a die. Say a 6 represents a win. I have a 1/6 chance.
DM> Now I agree to bet each time on a 6 coming up. If we have the
DM> same bet, after 3 rolls I have a 50/50 chance, etc.
SC> Let's get our definitions straight. In this case you're saying
SC> that you will bet on a 6 every time. What you want to determine
SC> is what is the chance that, after three rolls, a six will have
SC> been thrown at least once. You determine this by finding the
SC> chance of a 6 never appearing and subtracting that from 1. The
SC> chance that a 6 won't appear on each throw is 5/6. The chance
SC> that a 6 won't have appeared after three throws is (5/6)^3 or
SC> 125/216=0.5787 so your chances of getting a 6 are actually only
SC> about 42.1%. You can't say 3 rolls gives you a 50% chance any
SC> more than you can say that 6 rolls assures you of getting a 6.
SC> Note, that you can get more that one 6 but you have only a 42.1%
SC> chance of getting a 6 at all.
All this hinges on 'large number' theory, where, for a finite set of
rolls of the dice, the 1/6 rule stands when the number of rolls is
large. However, trying to enforce the averages in a small sample will
eventually (if not quickly) result in disappointment. Tyler can test
this out easily by recording the results of 12 rolls and 120 rolls.
SC> True, for a single additional roll. But the question is what is
SC> the chance of getting at least one 6 from three rolls which is
SC> different.
Every roll has equal chance of getting a 6. Additional rolls don't
count, additional dice do. If you were betting on how many 6's you
would get in 20 rolls, you'd do better than trying to predict the
value of the next roll.
It's a little bit like the lottery ticket question. Single tickets
in different draws have equal chance of winning. Losing 1000
lotteries in a row doesn't improve your chances, whereas 1000 tickets
in one lottery will.
MrZ
SC> -Steve
SC> * SLMR 2.1a *
SC> -!- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
SC> # Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27
SC> (8:916/1008)
SC> ! Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISIN
Date: 31 Dec 93 18:59:00
--------
EID:32d4 1b9f9760
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Jim Gifford <=-
JH> I don't intentionally give them false data, but I'm far enough away
JH> from the norm to slant their averages somewhat.
You'd be one the far statistical lefties or righties on the curve.
JH> But, yes, vendors and manufactures want that data. Want it bad
JH> enough to pay for it.
Dead right they should, if you can make them. Credit card usage
creates data for the service provider, who in turn sells it on
to research groups who'll analyse the crap out of it, who in turn
will publish some paper saying that Houstonites use 1.8 rolls of
toilet paper a day. Mind you, you'd have to buy a few truckloads
in one day to sway the averages!
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Dave Stein
Sub: ...OUT THERE.
Date: 31 Dec 93 23:57:00
--------
EID:3d55 1b9fbf20
-=> Quoting Dave Stein to All <=-
DS> The Universe is too big to try and convince ourselves we're the only
DS> intelligent life out here.
Maybe. But proof would make our day!
DS> However it is a testimony of how big the Human ego coupled with a
DS> fear of the unknown that people believe that to be true.
Human is as Human does. Most people believe that to be true since no
concrete proof appears.
DS> I don't intend to argue but logisicly speaking, the pure
DS> numbers of occurances and sightings mean that a conservative estimate
DS> of 10% actuall experiences cannot be dismissed. Think about it...if
DS> you were traveling around the galaxy and happen to pop in on a planet
DS> full of somewhat intelligent life that has a tendency toward agression
DS> to change, violence amongst itself, and many other inconsistencies
DS> regarding human... would you stop? Look in our zoo's, at the pure
DS> craziness, I wouldn't show my face either. Mabye you haven't seen
DS> anythi ng cause they don't want to be locked up, poked,prodded, and
DS> stared at. Something I think about now and again.
DS> Dave Stein
If your message and outlook is pro-UFO, switch to the UFO echo. Most
of us Skeptics read that one too. This echo is for discussions about
more concrete things. I'll be in UFO echo reading and replying!
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: URANTIA
Date: 01 Jan 94 00:23:00
--------
EID:a65c 1c2102e0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to All <=-
JH> Has Marvin Gardner published his book on the 'Urantia Book' yet?
Oh goodie! I wondered when someone was going to take Urantia down
to earth, finally. I've only had about an hours worth looking at this
book. From what I read, it was very Sci-Fi and had a real 40's
ring to it. I've had this friend of mine prattling this stuff in the
past, but I've never been able to afford a copy at 60 bucks.
I have this other book called OAHSPE, written about 1850 and published
around 1880. It's a hoot to flick through. It would have to be the
worst concoction of religious claptrap ever written.
Could you tell me the title of Marvin Gardners book? I'd love to
get it when it's available.
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Mark Bergner
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: out there
Date: 05 Jan 94 19:39:00
--------
EID:1064 1b30ea82
MSGID: 1:100/435 038107dc
-=> Quoting Kerry Penny to Ron Ballew on 2-JAN-1994 <=-
KP> RB> universe is invisible, than 90% of it could be
KP> RB> traveling
KP> RB> without light and much faster than the speed of light
KP>
KP> You seem to have hit a limit of your own. The speed of light doe
KP>imply that only light travels that speed. Things other than photons
c
KP>that speed, also. It's just that light is far more easily measured,
s
KP>have precise instruments for it (lasers).
KP>
Agreed... the "speed of light" is just a convinient label; it
should be more accuately called the "limiting speed of the universe".
Faster than light travel introduces some nasty paradoxes according to
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (which, BTW, has not been proven
and is one of the weakest tested cosmological theories in existence-- it
is very difficult to test out. Every test that it has been put to,
however, has passed with flying colors)... paradoxes such as a disregard
for causality (i.e., things disappear before they exist-- the old 'go back
in time and kill your mother before you were born' problem. Furthermore,
mass increases asymptotically towards infinity as you reach the speed of
light (hence, all particles/waves traveling at the speed of light are
deemed to have a rest mass of 0). Lots of other very nasty phenomena too.
I think it will require a major revolution in the field of physics
before faster than light travel is accepted.
---
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--- TosScan 1.00
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--------
From: Don Kemerling
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Skepticism & sec humanism
Date: 06 Jan 94 05:00:11
--------
EID:af24 1c262800
MSGID: 1:280/35@fidonet.org 13090229
DK> Paul Kurtz is not starting a philosophical movement called
DK> skepticism. His philosophical movement is called secular humanism,
DK> and he's not giving it up.
RM>His book would seem to suggest that he is trying to confuse the two.
No, I don't think so. It just uses the tool of skepticism where it's
needed most.
RM>Officers of the skeptics' organisations just about uniformly consider
RM>this a particularly dumb idea. Plainly, Kurtz thinks otherwise. He
RM>has been repeatedly warned, for year, of the increasing discomfort with
RM>which such officers have regarded these efforts. He seems not to care.
RM>This book is only the _latest_ episode in a long affair.
I don't think Kurtz thinks he's starting any new philosophical
movements. He's a little old for that, and it would be redundant
anyway. I tell you, this is nothing new, it's only a continuation of
everything he's been doing for the last 15 years, IMO. It fits in very
well.
DK> Skepticism is a key ingredient, because of the epistemological
DK> component of secular humanism.
RM>The conclusion (the lead phrase) is both false on its face, and a
RM>non-sequitur from the allegdly supporting phrase that follows.
The epistemology of secular humanism is pragmatic and uses skeptical
inquiry, reason, and the scientific method. The affirmations of
humanism don't specifically mention all of these, but they are all
necessary.
RM>Skepticism is not an ingredient _at all_ of secular humanism. I know
RM>a considerable number of secular humanists who cannot fairly be classed
RM>as skeptics in the slightest.
I guess some secular humanists don't pay much attention to fringe
science claims, but they aren't required to pay a lot of attention to
every part of the philosophy. Almost every one of us pays attention to
the claims of religion though. We know the damage it does, and we know
that occasionally we have to argue about religious claims. Skepticism
is a good tool to use, because we can't claim to know all, now can we?
>The two really have nothing to do with
RM>one another, in that they address extremely diverse questions: One can
RM>address humanist values and be secular without the _slightest_
RM>attraction to the use of critical inquiry on fringe-science claims of
RM>fact. Conversely, one can have the latter attraction with utter
RM>disregard for humanist values and secularism.
As secular humanists we must deal with religions. We can't just
pretend that religions aren't a dominant influence in society and that
they seek to increase their domination. We have to deal with their
claims, which are their soft underbelly, in order to positively
influence people to consider secular humanism as the better alternative
to development of a worldview. Skepticism is absolutely necessary.
In fact, when it comes to the greatest issues of life for any
secular humanist we don't worry about whether the claims about UFO's are
true, or whether astrology is true. We are concerned about the basic
ideas which support a worldview and ethics. This is where the meat and
potatos of life is. And thus this is where skepticism is needed the
most. We don't stop being skeptics when it comes to deciding on the
really crucial issues. That would be gutless.
DK> Any confusion cannot be blamed on Prof. Kurtz.
RM>To the contrary, just about 100% of it is traceable directly to him.
RM>I've never seen it originate with anyone else. Have you?
I thought I saw some originate with you.
RM>I am extremely well aware of the relevance of the work to the Council
RM>for a Democratic and Secular Humanism, as a tract. I'm quite
RM>astonished that you would think me _unaware_ of this! Why would you
RM>conclude that I "seem to forget" this?
RM>What an extraordinary statement. My goodness!
It's obvious to anyone who reads the book that CODESH is much closer
to the issues written about than CSICOP is. Why should CSICOP worry
about THE NEW SKEPTICISM? You're being a little oversensitive. CSICOP
doesn't have a monopoly on the use of the word skepticism, and it's not
even in the name anyway-though it is in the title of the publication.
It is not a word that is patently limited to fringe science claims.
It's a quite general word, as I've pointed out before.
DK> I think CODESH and the ASHS groups, one of which I belong to, are
DK> willing to do all the work and take all the heat that might be
DK> associated with THE NEW SKEPTICISM.
RM>Why should you take the blame, when you're not the one committing the
RM>damage? ;->
I don't see any blame to take, or damage. I think it's an excellent
book. But of course there's something of a mandate for secular humanist
groups to use the book and to somewhat defend it if it is attacked.
(Continued in the next message)
---
ž DeLuxeż/386 1.25 #6312 ž A cultural Mecca; order everyone a triple decker.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 06 Jan 94 14:07:52
--------
EID:bdef 1c2670e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jon!
2 Jan 94, dixit Jon Strayer ad Ron Ballew:
SQ>>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that
SQ>>> English was spoken in Biblical times.
RB>> Jesus spoke in tongues.
I wonder if this guy is even serious...I've been looking at his later posts,
and he's either a) Incredibly Fundamentalist, or b) Incredibly intent on
planting red herrings to stir things up a bit.
JS> I bet you don't even have any biblical support for that.
He doesn't have any scientific support for it either.
JS> Ah, how about it showed up a darn bit sooner than 5,000 years
JS> ago.
The English language isn't even a thousand years old at this point.
RB>> There is evidence that there were advanced civilizations that rose
RB>> and fell prior to written history.
JS> There is? Could you present us with some of this evidence?
RB>> ... There is only one civilized language.
JS> Latin?
Esperanto.
... Horoscope reading cancelled due to low cloud.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Hong Ooi
Sub: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 06 Jan 94 14:10:56
--------
EID:0fb6 1c267140
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Hong!
23 Dec 93, dixit Hong Ooi ad Beriah Octavius:
BO>> If the Human Brain can Proccess a series of noises and grunts
BO>> Known commmanly as Language in as many differnt types as English
BO>> japanese, german Idian, Fijian, Swahili, and a million other Dialects
BO>> (including the many differnet inter-tribal ones then there is no reason
BO>> that the human brain CANNOT interpret reverse language Patterns.
Hmmm. I never saw this.
Of course, Beriah is correct, but you address his point nicely, yet the
Fundamentalists would have us believe that the human brain in this case
works like a tape recorder, that we can simply just "on the fly" reverse
the speech. Assuming THAT is simply ridiculous, as there is simply no
evidence for it.
HO> IMHO you have missed a small point. Before the human brain can
HO> process English, Japanese, German, Indian, Fijian, Swahili or a
HO> million other dialects, it must *learn* those languages. This
It is my contention that anybody who actively attempts to learn reversed
speech (REAL reversed speech, not "Nodnol" for "London", for example.)
is either insane or in dire need of a job.
HO> OTOH, many of the odder fundamentalist types seem to be saying
HO> that average people can understand reverse-recorded messages on
HO> heavy metal albums just like that . To me,
And to reiterate, my argument revolves around this contention.
... Video killed the radio star.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Joe Slater
Sub: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 06 Jan 94 14:15:20
--------
EID:6226 1c2671e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Joe!
26 Dec 93, dixit Joe Slater ad Hong Ooi:
JS> and they have their own grammar. How long does it take someone
JS> to learn pig Latin? Ten minutes?
So can I infer from this that learning how to decipher reversed speech is
a matter of sitting down with Berlitz' Ten Minute Guide to Learning
Reversed Speech, and in twenty minutes, , you're suddenly open to
control from alleged reversed messages in rock and roll records?
JS> The brain is an excellent decoder
The brain lacks the apparatus to decipher reversed speech on the fly. It
simply cannot be done. The Fundamentalists contend that it can and is done,
and they are yet unable to provide basis for this claim. OK, let's argue
that bored human beings can learn how to do this. Are we ignoring for a
moment that there is a concentrated effort being made here? How many
teenage kids are going to make such a concentrated effort to hear the
alleged backwards messages that certain church masters claim are hidden
in popular music?
JS> decoder, and I find that I can often regognise anagrams without
JS> having to consciously process the letters.
This is reading comprehension, and does not apply to the phonemic change
that occurs when speech is reversed. Try again.
JS> It's by no means
JS> impossible that the same can apply to sounds.
OK, let's hear all about it.
... I'm as buzzed as the doorbell at the discount whorehouse.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 06 Jan 94 15:22:52
--------
EID:f695 1c267ac0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, J.J.!
4 Jan 94, dixit J.J. Hitt ad Steve Quarrella:
RB>> Jesus spoke in tongues.
SQ>> Oh? Did he, now? Can you provide some scientific basis
SQ>> for this "tongues"?
JH> I'd settle for a simple Biblical reference that gives
JH> book, verse and chapter.
Well, I would like some information on this "tongues" phenomenon, and quotes
from the holy book of an old culture hardly passes for scientific
documentation.
SQ>> Do you have access to HOLYSMOKE? I would very much like to examine
your
SQ>> claim there. This forum deals with testable claims, not outrageous
ones
,
SQ>> and we are tangentially on-topic here at the very best.
JH> His is a testable claim. It's either contained in the
JH> written record of what little we know about Jesus (the
JH> Gospels) or it isn't.
"Tongues" is a matter of a religious nature, and is simply not testable.
What Jesus said or didn't say is irrelevant...merely because the beginning
of the book in question contains "Dixitque Deus 'Fiat lux!'" doesn't mean
it was so. [I think you know that, so I'm preaching to the choir. :) ]
JH> I'm going to be turning on HOLYSMOKE with my next
JH> paycheck.
Will be watching!
... "Have you ever seen an orlon eel?" The Guess Who
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--------
From: Dave Stein
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 05 Jan 94 06:25:48
--------
EID:3a16 1c253320
MSGID: 1:205/20.0 2d2acdec
REPLY: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 3f32c6e6
I happen to be in possesion of actual footage shot origanaly on 8mm and
transfered to video. Shot in 1978(?), this is actual mooving proof of an
UFO. It was studied by a team of Japanese scientists and film professionals
w
ho only after several complex test concluded that the film must be genuine.
I
n fact the Japanese gov't was impressed enough to release the film to the
publ
ic. I have a copy and would happily let you view it. No we don't see any
ET'
s but the evidence is pretty conclusive.
If not from outer-space, assuming if it's not than it is man-made, why aren't
we using this technology now? Incidently, it says on the tape but I think
the
shots are from northern Europe or Sandinavia or something. Also shown are
li
tarly 100's of stills shot from a 35mm. Take a look and decide for yourself,
made a believer out of me. I appreciate your remarks and enjoy an intelligent
convo with somebody who finally knows what they are talking about and can
bac
k it up.
Dave
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Dave Stein
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 05 Jan 94 06:46:52
--------
EID:f711 1c2535c0
MSGID: 1:205/20.0 2d2ad2dc
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d1ccc5c
I did not mean to imply that I have any place in psycho-analyzing the human
ra
ce, all I meant to say is that it is simply a possibility, forgive my rash
sta
tments for I am a believer 'cause I've seen unexplained phenomenea, if science
had an answer they wouldn't call it unexplained or phenomenea. I am also
des
pratly looking for any shred of evidence proving an ET existance. But,
that d
oesn't mean I take every bit of info for law either. You are right in that
tr
ying to Pschologise an argument doesn't work and simply put there is a time
an
d a place for sarcasim. I appreciate your reply and got one question.
Have y
ou heard of any new developements in the construction of the radio telescope
r
umered to be used for searching out intelligent life? thanx
Dave
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Mark Smith
To: David Brown
Sub: HOLOGRAPHIC INTERNONSENSe
Date: 06 Jan 94 12:14:00
--------
EID:ef62 1c2661c0
MSGID: 1:280/335 8622B673
DAVID BROWN said to FREDRIC RICE:
DB> Is it not a common complaint of believers that science has a
> premeditated technique of finding an alternate, prosaic,
> equally-unproven hypothesis and smugly walking away?
To be honest, I have not heard this complaint, although it may
well be common. But it's not much of a complaint, since this is
merely science doing what it is supposed to do.
(Except for the "smugly walking away" part. That's simple
discourtesy. However, while scientists are just as prone to
smugness as anyone else, it's a mistake to think that being smug
has anything to do with scientific method. Just the opposite, in
fact.)
At any rate, given an unexplained phenomenon, it's a wise
scientist who looks for the simplest, most ordinary explanation
that fits existing data. That's the principle of Occam's Razor,
which says that if two theories fit known data equally well, the
smart thing is to give preference to the theory that requires
fewer assumptions to be made.
In other words, prosaic is good. Prosaic works. Or in the words
of Mark Twain, "It's one thing to keep an open mind, but it's
another thing to let the geese run around in there."
* Apex v4 * It is better to be uncertain than wrongly certain.
--- WM v3.10/92-0046
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--------
From: Mark Smith
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Necronomicon
Date: 06 Jan 94 12:19:00
--------
EID:0dc8 1c266260
MSGID: 1:280/335 8622B674
Butting in to a conversation between DR PEPPER and DAVID BLOOMBERG:
DP> Our friend, Bob Larson (the militant fundamentalist radio
> personality) seems to believe that the Necronomicon exists,
> that Cthuluh, Nyarlethotep & Co are real demons, and that
> HPL's works were the result of automatic writing.
Good lord, Doctor, did he really say that? I suppose he has his
reasons. I must have underestimated the power of hysterical
ranting to attract financial contributions.
* Apex v4 * Wire the governor. Tell him I said OWWW!
--- WM v3.10/92-0046
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: Re: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISIN
Date: 07 Jan 94 12:27:03
--------
EID:e950 1c276360
SZ> Dead right they should, if you can make them. Credit card usage
SZ> creates data for the service provider, who in turn sells it on
SZ> to research groups who'll analyse the crap out of it, who in turn
SZ> will publish some paper saying that Houstonites use 1.8 rolls of
SZ> toilet paper a day. Mind you, you'd have to buy a few truckloads
SZ> in one day to sway the averages!
I'm worse than that. As the survey's monthly newsletter tells me over
and over, my purchaces represent 50,000 households nationwide.
And while I don't use more than a single roll of toilet paper a day,
I *still* buy CP/M manuals and software and am prone to a few other
non-typical habits.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: Re: URANTIA
Date: 07 Jan 94 12:33:38
--------
EID:f011 1c276420
SZ> Oh goodie! I wondered when someone was going to take Urantia down
SZ> to earth, finally. I've only had about an hours worth looking at this
SZ> book. From what I read, it was very Sci-Fi and had a real 40's
SZ> ring to it. I've had this friend of mine prattling this stuff in the
SZ> past, but I've never been able to afford a copy at 60 bucks.
I got my copy used for 10 dollars, but saddly it's a little too large
to read while sitting on the toilet, which is as high as it can aspire
to climb in my library.
Yes, it's an attempt to fuse Science Fiction with the Bible by an
unnamed author who didn't have a very good grasp of either. In
addition to organizing the heavenly host of angels into councils and
commitees that resemble a Kafka-esque bureaucrasy, it also includes
such monstrocities as space stations the size of solar systems. (Even
if you did collect the materials to build something that large, what
in the hell would you fill it with? But large and empty seems to be a
good description of the Urantia mythos.)
And it's 1940-ish in more ways than one. There is a constant, only
half heartedly disguished, thread of racism throughout the entire
book. Some of the things in the book are more than just silly,
they're downright scary.
SZ> I have this other book called OAHSPE, written about 1850 and published
SZ> around 1880. It's a hoot to flick through. It would have to be the
SZ> worst concoction of religious claptrap ever written.
Ah... I know the book, but dont have a copy. I've been trying to
add it to my collection for a couple of years now. It gets
reprinted every other decade or so, but so far I've had no luck
locating a copy.
SZ> Could you tell me the title of Marvin Gardners book? I'd love to
SZ> get it when it's available.
I've no idea. I knew he was "working on it" about a year ago, but
haven't heard anything since.
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 07 Jan 94 17:33:39
--------
EID:346c 1c278c20
JH> His is a testable claim. It's either contained in the
JH> written record of what little we know about Jesus (the
JH> Gospels) or it isn't.
SQ> "Tongues" is a matter of a religious nature, and is simply not testable.
SQ> What Jesus said or didn't say is irrelevant...merely because the beginnin
g
SQ> of the book in question contains "Dixitque Deus 'Fiat lux!'" doesn't
mean
SQ> it was so. [I think you know that, so I'm preaching to the choir. :)
]
Eh.. I viewed this as a simple matter of wether the claim is supported
by the existing historical/literary record or not. (I dont expect any
historical document to be free from error or outragousness).
If I say that Huckleberry Finn spoke Russian and drove a Chevrolet, I
dont have to question wether Finn is a fictional character or not, I
dont have to speculate on wether Mark Twain was devinely inspired or
not, I'm not even concerned with the accuracy or origin of the text
involved. I'm only concerned with wether the claim is actually in the
text or it isn't.
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Joe Slater
Sub: Re: Illinois fundamentalis
Date: 06 Jan 94 14:38:24
--------
EID:6dd1 1c2674c0
MSGID: 1:125/27 2726ce1b
DP> I saw Pat Robertson holding forth on this case on his 700 Club.
DP> He declared it an unconscionable interference with the rights of
DP> the woman. Considering that the legal action is being pursued on
DP> behalf of the fetus, i find his opinion deliciously ironic.
JS>
JS> His position seems eminently sound: both the mother and the child
JS> have rights, and neither can be forced to undergo treatment that
JS> will harm them.
You are of course indulging the rather transparent fallacy of assuming
what you are aiming to _demonstrate_ -- that the fetus has the legal
rights of a child. However, since the question has nothing whatsoever
to do with this echo, would you please address it in some other one?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 06 Jan 94 14:42:42
--------
EID:9736 1c267540
MSGID: 1:125/27 2726cf1b
JH> SQ> claim there. This forum deals with testable claims, not
JH> SQ> outrageous ones, and we are tangentially on-topic here at the
JH> SQ> very best.
JH>
JH> His is a testable claim. It's either contained in the written
JH> record of what little we know about Jesus (the Gospels) or it
JH> isn't. A nice, binary, pass/fail test. I don't have to search any
JH> further than my concordance to tell you that his statement isn't
JH> supported by the 'literature'.
Testable _fringe-science_ claims, J.J. This is not a bible echo.
There are plenty of those, but this just ain't one.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Association for Rational Thought Online!
Date: 05 Jan 94 22:34:18
--------
EID:3a13 1c25b440
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39c7016a
The Association for Rational Thought (Cinci., OH skeptics group) has put
out e
lectronic versions of their newsletters. They are now running a BBS, but
it i
s not hooked up to Fido (I'm not sure if it's hooked up to any net). Lance
Mo
ody, one of their officers, uploaded the newsletters to me here. They were
in
Macintosh's version of ASCII, so I went thru, reformatted the text to work
we
ll with IBM's and the like, and tried to catch all the weird control character
s.
They are now available for download or FReq here, at 217-787-9101 (new callers
get download privs).
Here are the file descriptions:
Filename Area Size Date Description
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä
ARTVOL1.ZIP 4 37K 1-05-94* [ 0] Association for Rational Thought
(Cinci. Skeptics) newsletter: All of Vol. 1
but 1st issue (91-92): Near-Death
Experiences; Satanism; Dr. Robert Baker on
Ghosts & the like; meeting summaries.
ART2-1.ZIP 4 7K 1-05-94* [ 0] Oct 1992: Cold-Springs Virgin Mary;
Deception; mtg. summary
ART2-2.ZIP 4 9K 1-05-94* [ 0] Jan 1993: Ghost investigation;
Cinci.
Nature Center goes psuedo-science
ART2-3.ZIP 4 12K 1-05-94* [ 0] Apr 1993: Stigmata; Statistics
misuse
by parapsychologists; Demo of "psychic"
powers
ART2-4.ZIP 4 16K 1-05-94* [ 0] Jun 1993: "Laws" of Quack Science;
Failed arguments with non-skeptics; officer
reports
ART3-1.ZIP 4 9K 1-05-94* [ 0] Oct 1993: Book Review: book on
how to
survive "satanic ritual abuse" (which has, o
f
course, been "recovered" from "hidden
memories"); book review: _Shadows of
Forgotten Ancestors_ by Sagan and Druyan;
Quackery, cont.
ART3-2.ZIP 4 17K 1-05-94* [ 0] Dec 1993: UFOs (lots of good
background info); James Randi on NOVA (in
Russia); cold reading
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: ART on FTP
Date: 05 Jan 94 22:37:25
--------
EID:7cc8 1c25b4a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 39c703f7
Anson, I asked Lance about making the files available on your FTP site,
and he
said he definitely wants to do so. If you'd like to grab 'em, goferit.
Also
, he will probably continue to u/l the newsletters to my system as they
come o
ut, so I'll let you know when they do (it's a quarterly right now).
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Steve Crawford
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out There.
Date: 06 Jan 94 08:53:00
--------
EID:6a25 1c2646a0
MSGID: 1:125/27 2826cd1b
RB> And then, they believed that exceeding
RB> the speed of sound was a death trap for sure.
Some people thought that it was impossible to break a mile a
minute. The emphasis is SOME people. Some people still think the
world is flat. Those who took more than a second to think about
this realized that 60 MPH is a completely arbitrary speed that
relates to no physical barrier.
As to the speed of sound, Yeager himself thought those who said
that it was impossible to break the speed of sound were foolish
since bullets and other projectiles were routinely fired at
velocities greater than Mach 1. The project was certainly
dangerous since the project was exploring new realms of flight
and there was uncertainty about how control surfaces would act
and so on but that's completely different than saying that it's a
physical impossibility to exceed that speed.
RB> Thinking that man cannot travel faster than the speed of
RB> light is no doubt wrong too.
How does this relate to the speed of sound? Despite the protests
of the ignorant, it was known that we could exceed the speed of
sound with small projectiles. No physical law was broken. There
is plenty of evidence supporting, and none of which I am aware
contradicting, the concept that the speed of light is an absolute
limit. If you have some solid evidence that this is wrong, I'm
sure that there are some physicists who would love to hear it.
Maybe you can tell them how to chill something to below absolute
zero while you're at it. We eagerly await this exciting new
information.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * Got a life, gotta go...
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Fred Hatfield
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 08 Jan 94 05:56:27
--------
EID:825f 1c282f0d
In a message of <06 Jan 94 14:42:42>, Rick Moen (1:125/27) writes:
RM>JH> SQ> claim there. This forum deals with testable claims, not
RM>JH> SQ> outrageous ones, and we are tangentially on-topic here at the
RM>JH> SQ> very best.
RM>JH>
RM>JH> His is a testable claim. It's either contained in the written
RM>JH> record of what little we know about Jesus (the Gospels) or it
RM>JH> isn't. A nice, binary, pass/fail test. I don't have to search any
RM>JH> further than my concordance to tell you that his statement isn't
RM>JH> supported by the 'literature'.
RM>
RM>Testable _fringe-science_ claims, J.J. This is not a bible echo.
RM>There are plenty of those, but this just ain't one.
Rick, that just doesn't sound like J.J. -- and the initials are JH -- are
you
sure you got the right guy?
Fred Hatfield K8VDU @ N5UXT.LA.USA ..Basin Street Jazz from {TheBigEasy}..
--- QM v1.00
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:49:49
--------
EID:826d 1c286e20
SQ> So can I infer from this that learning how to decipher reversed speech
is
SQ> a matter of sitting down with Berlitz' Ten Minute Guide to Learning
SQ> Reversed Speech, and in twenty minutes, , you're suddenly open
to
SQ> control from alleged reversed messages in rock and roll records?
Berlitz? BERLITZ? BERLITZ?!?!
(Doing my best imitation of the Three Stooges "slowly I turn"
routine.)
If anybody wrote and published such a guide, it WOULD be Charles
Berlitz.
Just the thing for the tourist visiting Atlantis and the Bermuda
Triangle.....
--- EZPoint V2.2
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Is this valid
Date: 14 Jan 94 14:42:02
--------
EID:ad80 1c2e7541
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 070e77e6
PID: FM 2.02
Someone commented that the old "Laugh In" show predicted the following:
From: Rich Lockyer
rl> What about the 1968 Laugh In where Martin did "News
rl> of the Future"... "1988, President Reagan (then Governor)
rl> oversees the dismantling of the Berlin Wall" Someone
rl> knew about it!
I don't recall the skits titled "News of the Future." Does anyone know
about
this particular skit? And does it entitle Martin to any skeptics groups
rewa
rds?
---
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PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Brown
Sub: HOLOGRAPHIC INTERNONSENSE
Date: 14 Jan 94 14:53:38
--------
EID:d1ea 1c2e76b3
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 070e77e7
PID: FM 2.02
db> People are often saying, "Science thinks it knows everything
db> and if it has no explanation, it will call it "[swamp
db> gas, etc.]"
Perhaps people who do not recognize what scientific method is adopt that
line
of belief and so such complaints can be largely ignored. An example:
There was a claimant who said that manifestations of spirits were common
to he
r and that they physically impacted upon her mobility. She called these
episo
des "psychic attacks" when she was the "most weak." Specifically, when
she was fallling asleep or just waking up.
The phenomena is well known. It is called hypnopompic hallucination and
hypno
gogic hallucination depending upon whether they are experienced prior to
falli
ng asleep or just after waking up. It is a valid area of scientific
inquiry as the physical processes which prompt the sleeping process of the
bod
y
and the paralysis of the body for sleep are objects of inquiry.
After I offered her the labels for the phenomena so that, if she so desired,
s
he could review what she experiences and learn that it's very common, her
resp
onse was _exactly_ what you claim: A scientist putting a fifty-cent word
on i
t doesn't explain it.
What it boiled-down to was that she _wanted_ to believe that she was being
att
acked -- which would make her something special.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: Ark Continues
Date: 14 Jan 94 15:12:43
--------
EID:addf 1c2e7995
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 070e77eb
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d30f8be
PID: FM 2.02
DT> That was proven a hoax..The guy was an atheist who wanted to prove
DT> that Creationism was bunk..he proved his point very well.He provided
DT> the "documentary" film company with absolutely no hard evidence and
DT> baked up a crock 'o lies that were totally ridiculous..
rb> The camera does not ask for hard evidence.
rb> It takes a picture of what it sees.
So when we see Luke Skywalker lift R2D2 using "The Force," we're supposed
to b
elieve in The Force, right? When we see photograph of bamboo saucers hanging
over the State Capitol we're supposed to believe it, right?
rb> Maybe I could ask the VCR store to order a copy for you.
Maybe I could ask you to think rationally about what you're being programmed
t
o believe. Locals get a big kick out of religious zealots walking around
the
mountain side looking for mythological boats -- and they're all too willing
to
sell them bits and pieces of it.
rb> Perhaps it will be destroyed by the unbelievers and
rb> we will never see it again. It is a pretty good film.
Perhaps religious zealotry will be educated out of the populace and such
nonse
nse will never be needed to bilk the ignorant out of their pocket money.
---
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Ron Ballew
Sub: ...out There.
Date: 14 Jan 94 15:32:57
--------
EID:33a0 1c2e7c1c
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 070e77ec
REPLY: 1:385/18.0 2d30f8bf
PID: FM 2.02
rb> If time stops as you approach the speed of light, as some
rb> people claim, then how does light get anywhere?
Read "Einstein for Beginners." It's not called "realitivity" for nothing,
Ron
. From the perspective of the electromagnetic gluon traveling at the speed
of light in a vaccume, time doesn't "stop" -- time is not part of the
environment that the electromagnetic gluon exists within; to simplify it
for
you. Time _is_ part of the environment of an external observer, however,
traveling at oblique angles to the photon and/or at different velocities
than
c.
rb> If light continues to travel, even though time has stopped,
rb> then the light gets there instantly.
And since time hasn't stopped from the photons' perspective, there is no
probl
em. From external perspectives, the photon appears to propagate at the
speed
of light over time.
rb> If it gets there in no time at all, then it has no speed limit.
And since it doesn't get to its "destination" in no time at all, there is
-- a
gain -- no problem.
rb> Obviously, these man made theories need some work.
Or perhaps there is a problem with your dismal lack of understanding of
even t
hese most fundamentally simple concepts? Could there -- just perhaps --
be so
mething of a faulty education getting in the way of your understanding of
elem
entary physics? Could it, perhaps, have anything to do with religious zealotr
y or ignorance?
I'm just asking. There is no need to get upset.
rb> Absolute zero is just a man made scale.
Nope again. Seriously, you need to know what you're talking about before
you
attempt to talk about it among those who know better, Ron. It doesn't assist
in a positive image of your credability.
Absolute zero is acquired when the number of collissions of atoms within
the a
rea of influence reaches zero. The area of influence may be a block of
wood,
a fundamentalists brain, or a void of DeSitter space.
Since neutrons and protons themselves are now known to experience beta deacy,
that means that -- eventually and if the universe is open -- all of the
matter
that you see around you will get to experience zero collissions.
rb> The scale will be adjusted as things get colder.
Or perhaps things will become clearer as you get better educated.
rb> When the temperature goes off the scale you have to measure
rb> how many degrees are necessary to bring it back on the scale.
rb> The concept of degrees probably needs some work too.
Occult beliefs are at times entertaining.
---
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Stein
Sub: ...out there.
Date: 14 Jan 94 15:50:55
--------
EID:64d3 1c2e7e5b
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 070e77ee
REPLY: 1:205/20.0 2d2acdec
PID: FM 2.02
ds> No we don't see any ET's but the evidence is pretty conclusive.
So what you ended up with is film which shows something you can't identify
whi
ch you assume without evidence to be an alien device? Is that what you're
adm
itting to?
---
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PATH: 102/890
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