God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:03:00
--------
EID:f14b 1b8a2860
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Dr Pepper saying to Charlie Wilson:
DP> Sorry, i have made it a personal rule to only discuss it on Evolution
DP> or on the Usenet area talk.origins.
DP> Sure. Dave James, who holds the position of Western Star, carries
DP> absolutlely everything. His numbers are 702-656-2482, 655-0853,
DP> 658-3781.
DP> 10 2
DP> DR PEPPER
DP> 4
See you there as soon as I've configured everything accordingly!
(Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a pseudonym?)
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertising
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:14:00
--------
EID:2c91 1b8a29c0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Steve Quarrella saying to Charlie Wilson:
SQ> With: Rick Moen
SQ> Hwaet, Charlie!
RM> Charlie, William Poundstone has a pretty good list (including
RM> alleged examples and what the seemed to him to actually be) in
RM> his book _Big Secrets_. Highly recommended, as a very
SQ>
SQ> Also, Poundstone has done BIGGER SECRETS and BIGGEST SECRETS. Great
SQ> stuff.
Thanx to you as well as the cheery Rick M. Appreciated.
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:28:00
--------
EID:4205 1b8a2b80
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Rick Moen @ 916/1008 saying to Charlie Wilson:
>> Folks, need I say more? ;->
>
> Yes....like the rest of the msg....which you're obviously afraid
> of posting. A shame, since it becomes obvious you're trying so hard
> to impress your fellow echo-lurkers. Would you bother to quote me
> properly if I had said "Richard" or "Ricardo" or _whatever_? Should I
> include any quote by you with a disclaimer that you're on the board of
> directors of some outfit? Why is it you're unable to be consise,
> accurate and perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
RM@9>
RM@9> I thought it most entertaining that, in a message of such rather (um)
RM@9> querulous tone, you said I was engaging in "a childish game" in the
RM@9> exact same breath as you calling me "Ricky".
Only in _reply_, mon ami, only in reply.
RM@9> It's equally entertaining that you're now continuing in the same
RM@9> vein, with _yet more_ name-calling tactics, and petulantly continuing
RM@9> to demand point-by-point replies to such material. You know, this
RM@9> experience may do you some good, by introducing you to the concept
of
RM@9> delayed gratification of one's wishes. ;->
And it's too bad you are still unable/unwilling to provide complete,
accurate quotes. What name-calling? We _both_ know for a fact (as does
every person in this echo who read that reply) you carefully inserted your
"credentials" in your first reply to me. Why can't you have the basic
maturity to acknowledge it? Why did you do it in the first place?
My only wish is that you would learn to completely quote people who
speak in this echo. Lighten up....for the most part I'm on _your_ side;
I just despise twisting of peoples complete posts to suit a personal
agenda. (I like the "petulant" part....talk about a personal opinion!)
Sincerely - Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertising
Date: 10 Dec 93 05:29:00
--------
EID:3d21 1b8a2ba0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Erin Corliss saying to Charlie Wilson:
> voice stuff on LP's I only know of two examples, personally,
> where the
> speech was reversed and neither one had diddly-squat to do
> with anything
> "evil."
EC> I can remember two examples of that. Both basically said "Hey, look
EC> at the idiot who's running his record backwards..."
What were they?
Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Steve Hendren
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Whackos in Russia
Date: 09 Dec 93 15:21:51
--------
EID:bdfe 1b897aa0
On (07 Dec 93) Kerry Penny wrote to Fredric Rice...
KP> FR> All of the genetic information required is present for
KP> FR> a cell to begin division and to continue to divide
KP> FR> until a baby is born. How the cell begins to divide,
KP> FR> I wouldn't know. I read that the child is always
KP> FR> female but that it dies quickly.
KP>
KP> I differ with that opinion. The egg has only half of the genetic
KP> material needed to provide fission into something that would resemble
KP> a human embryo. I won't dispute that perhaps it might split as is,
KP> but certainly not as something easily recognizable. I am not a
KP> biologist, though, so I can't state with any certainty that I am right
KP> on this. But, what the heck, I _am_ right anyway. ;)
Actually, what he's referring to is called parthenogenesis. It occurs in
some
lower forms of vertebrate life, in fact the most sophisticated species I
can
remember hearing about it occurring in (yeesh! it's been a long time since
I took embryology) is turkeys. I seem to remember something about the offsprin
g
always being female.
--- PPoint 1.65
* Origin: Point Of No Return Fayetteville, NC (1:3634/2.5)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:43:07
--------
EID:702f 1b8a4560
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11F9691B
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 384d65af
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did David Bloomberg really say something to Steve Quarrella, on 08 Dec 93?
DB> That IS her theory: That the government is engaged in
DB> a secret war against the people, and blah blah blah
And she totally ignores the overt actions. :)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:29:00
--------
EID:309b 1b8ab3a0
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG ac1635cd
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> SQ> Like I've been saying in HOLYSMOKE, I really would like to
> SQ> see his explanation of Biblical English, considering that
> SQ> the world's Germanic scholars currently hold nothing like
> SQ> it in their archives.
> Germanic? (Can you expand on that one please?)
English is one of the germanic languages.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:33:00
--------
EID:41c2 1b8a5420
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d0896ac
On 12-04-93, Rick Moen @ 916/1008 actually wrote the following to Gary
Posner:
RM>> Here's my address to which the Randi/Geller Hotline messages are
RM>> being successfully addressed to me on the NetMail echo:
RM>>
RM>> Gary.Posner@p0.f33.n377.z1.FIDONET.ORG
RM>>
RM>> I don't know if the "p0" would also apply to you, but otherwise
RM>> your corresponding address would simply substitute "f2112" and "n243
RM>> for my own "f" and "n" numbers.
RM>
RM>Gary, for the record, the "p0" is superflous for both you and David,
RM>since it is assumed by default. The default assumption is correct
RM>in both cases, since neither of you runs a "point" system (p for point
RM>
Theoretically, the "p0" is not required. However, I have had problems with
e-mail bouncing addressed to Fidonet addresses without it. It doesn't hurt
to leave it in, so I'd advise keeping it.
RM>If by "CSICOP list" you are referring to the Internet "Skeptic" list
RM>run by Taner Edis at Johns Hopkins University, please let me know,
RM>and I'll help you work out how to successfully subscribe. To my
RM>knowledge, CSICOP has no e-mail mailing list as such, just a read-only
RM>display area on the Cleveland Freenet, maintained by Jim Kutz of South
RM>Shore Skeptics on a volunteer basis.
RM>
The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently started
up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't have the
level of traffic the "Skeptic" list has.
I thought your address was in the distribution list for the messages from
the CSICOP list. I must have been mistaken. I'll drop you an Internet
e-mail with Barry's address so you can get added.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:58:02
--------
EID:e803 1b8a5740
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d089c8a
On 12-08-93, David Bloomberg actually wrote the following to Rick Moen @
916/1008:
[...]
DB>Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out
DB>only a few things so far (I think they were a copy of the
DB>list itself, a notice from Anson about having newsletters
DB>FTPable, and a few other minor things), but it's there.
DB>
When did you see that notice?
I haven't received anything from the CSICOP list recently, even though I
sent Barry the FTP notice earlier this week.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Don Kemerling
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:29:37
--------
EID:df16 1b8a43a0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27dd1b
> From the introduction to THE NEW SKEPTICISM: Inquiry and Reliable
> Knowledge, by philosopher Paul Kurtz, executive editor of SKEPTICAL
> INQUIRER MAGAZINE:
Actually, no. Kurtz is not executive editor. He's chairman of the
committee that publishes _Skeptical Inquirer_.
> ÚÄÄÄ
> ³ "Skepticism, like all things, is good if used in moderation. It
> ³is essential for the healthy mind; but if taken to excess, it can
> lead ³to overweening doubt. Skepticism, if properly understood, is
> not a ³metaphysical picture of the unkowability of "ultimate reality";
> it does ³not lead to an inevitable epistemological impasse; it need
> not ³culminate in existential despair or nihilism. Rather it should
> be ³considered as an essential methodological rule guiding us to
> examine ³critically all claims to knowledge and affirmation of value.
> Without ³it, we are apt to slip into complacent self-deception and
> dogmatism; ³with it, if prudently used, we can effectively advance the
> frontiers of ³inquiry and knowledge, and also apply it to practical
> life, ethics, and ³politics.
> ³ Briefly stated, a skeptic is one who is willing to question any
> ³claim to truth, asking for clarity in definition, consistency in
> logic, ³and adequacy of evidence. The use of skepticism is thus an
> essential ³part of objective scientific inquiry and the search for
> reliable ³knowledge."
> ÀÄÄÄ
> I'll go along with Mr. Kurtz. I highly recommend the book,
> published by Prometheus Books.
Kurtz should know better than to claim that "skepticism" as used in
_Skeptical Inquirer_ is construed to be "an essential methodological
rules guiding us to examine critically all claims to knowledge and
affirmation of value". In fact, he _does_ know better. Skeptics
have _never_ used the term in that sense. Only Kurtz in his perverse
desire to co-mingle his two interests is irresponsible enough to make
such a claim. I will specifically and emphatically disavow it.
I will particularly, specifically, disavow the statement about practical
life, ethics, and politics. Skeptics have nothing at all to do with
these subjects. Skepticism means critical inquiry into whether testable
claims on the fringes of science have merit. The _Skeptical Inquirer_
has always used the term to mean that, and so has every one of the
dozens of other skeptics' periodicals of my acquaintance. Not a one
foolishly squanders its credibility making pronouncements about ethics
and politics, not to mention "practical life" (whatever that is). Kurtz
speaks solely for himself, and not even for his own skeptics'
organisation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:35:16
--------
EID:e9c4 1b8a4460
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27de1b
> The lotto is a much worse bet than almost any other gamble but it
> is the only gamble that can completely change your life if you
> win which is what draws people to it.
So, it feeds the "do nothing productive, get rich quick" loser
mentality. This is bad, not good (in my view, as a matter of personal
morals). However, it is incorrect to state that this is the only way
to suddenly become rich. It's true that its more accessible than the
other ways, but that's because its promoted as an easy way to fleece
the unwary. The object of the offerers is not to make people rich, but
rather to take huge sums of money from them. That's why they make it
easy to play.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:38:48
--------
EID:e9c4 1b8a44c0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27df1b
> Agreed. And as I pointed out before, going to the track requires an
> investment of $ and time (parking, admission, gas, duration of race)
> that has to be recouped before winnings count. As you say, if you
> consider it as entertainment, however...
Racetrack gambling doesn't require visiting a racetrack. There will
certainly be off-premises gambling in your area, though you may not
know of it.
Besides, with only a modest stake, you can also simply call a broker
and take a flyer on options or futures. That's a fairly easy way to
lose your shirt or get rich. Concentration of risk in that area is
readily available. It's just not as mindless an activity as buying
lottery tickets.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Don Kemerling
Sub: Re: Ark hoax continues
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:45:11
--------
EID:6559 1b8a45a0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e01b
> RM>Actually, that may be the one most provably true allegation in the
> RM>entire piece. Sun very likely is fundamentally interested in
> following RM>Willie Sutton's Law ("Go where the money is"). It's
> really quite RM>plausible that they have no ideological commitment to
> creationism. RM>It would, after all, be against their interests to
> have one.
>
> I expect that these people think that their interest lies in
> heaven, but of course there is lucrative reward for those who pander
> to believers right here on Earth. Prime time TV pays very well.
Well, Don, it's really not fundamentally of interest what Sun's motives
are for making films in the first place, so I regret that my earlier
comment has set the conversation down this path. As noted in my
earlier response about Kurtz and his misbegotten latest attempt to
make skeptics be what they are not, skeptics are not ideologues.
We are not about religion, politics, or leading a moral life.
Therefore, we are also not about making sure that people do things
for the right reasons. We are simply about critical inquiry into
testable claims at the fringes of science.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 08:48:10
--------
EID:640a 1b8a4600
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e11b
> FR> That's not quite correct. Evolution is a fact not subject to
> belief FR> or disbelief. It's not even subject to debate. The
> theory of FR> evolution is subject to debate, however. The mode and
> tempo, that is.
>
> Your opinion and one I respect....but that's all it is.
> If it _is_ a _fact_, please take a moment and provide a couple of
> specific references by eminent current researchers in the field
> stating same.
This has already been provided to you in the text of the FAQ posting.
You could also consult any reputable biology textbook, such as Keaton
or Curtis.
> FR> Creationists seem incapable of recognizing the difference between
> fact FR> and the theory designed to describe same fact.
>
> I surely hope that last line was not directed towards _me_. If
> so, please directly quote where I stated creationist opinions (unless
> you mean that when I said evolution was a theory, that equaled
> "creationist."
It's a classic creationist debate gambit (and error).
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford @ 916/1008
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:18:00
--------
EID:d105 1b8a5240
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e21b
JH> They'd need a big "BUNCH" of friends.
JH> Assumeing it's the same (01 to 50) six number game I'm familiar with,
> the chances of getting all six numbers is:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 (or 11,441,304,000 or a REAL BIG BUNCH)
WRONG! Those are the odds against picking all the numbers AND in the
correct order as well. The lotto may be a bad bet but come on, it isn't
THAT bad. 11 billion?? Everyone on the face of planet Earth would have
to play to even have a winner about every 2nd or 3rd draw. The prizes
would be spectacular, though. If you won, you might even be able to
buy a stealth bomber or two. :-)
Oh well, I guess the advent of the calculator has killed off the old
"common sense" double-check of calculation results.
Since you don't have to match the order, the odds in your game are
(6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) * (2/46) * (1/45) = 1/15,890,700
JH> Even if you'er only interested in matching four numbers, you still
get:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 or 5,527,200
JH> Which is still a sizable 'BUNCH'.
Actually, its:
(6/50) * (5/49) * (4/48) * (3/47) = 1/15,353
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * Got a life, gotta go...
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Japanese Magnetic circle
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:00
--------
EID:b72a 1b86a4e0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e31b
On 12-04-93 JON STRAYER wrote to DONALD WILTON @ 916/10...
JS> On Nov 29 10:27, Donald Wilton @ 916/1008 of 8:916/1008 wrote:
JS>
JS> DW@9> I would like to know what if any, research has taken
JS> DW@9> place to credit or discredit the japanese scientist who
JS> DW@9> claimed that the crop circles could have been formed by
JS> DW@9> ball lightning. I remember that he showed that ball
JS> DW@9> lightning, when artificially generated, created patterns
JS> DW@9> in iron filings that were very similar to those that
JS> DW@9> appear in crop circles.
JS>
JS> How much research would it take to show that there are darn few iron
JS> filings in wheat? :-)
Sure,
What I meant was that if the same types of patterns appear during a normal
occurrence, ball lightning or other, then there may be other circumstances
that could cause the crop circles, than guys with wire and boards. I admit
that some of the crop circles are really crudely made, and obviously made
by
guys with boards and wires.
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for your point of view!
"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Tilting At creationist
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:20:00
--------
EID:3c8c 1b86aa80
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e41b
On 12-04-93 SYSOP wrote to CHARLIE WILSON...
S > Good leads on additional information can be gotten from the National
S > Center for Science Education, P.O. Box 9477, Berkeley, CA 94709,
S > tel. #510-526-1674.
What about the abundant FAQ sheets no doubt available on the Skeptic's Board,
that deal with this and similar topics? }:>
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for theocracy! :) :) :)
:) :)
"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Donald Wilton @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: News From james randi
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:24:00
--------
EID:58b4 1b86ab00
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e51b
On 12-04-93 SYSOP wrote to GARY POSNER...
S > If by "CSICOP list" you are referring to the Internet "Skeptic" list
S > run by Taner Edis at Johns Hopkins University, please let me know,
S > and I'll help you work out how to successfully subscribe. To my
S > knowledge, CSICOP has no e-mail mailing list as such, just a read-only
S > display area on the Cleveland Freenet, maintained by Jim Kutz of South
S > Shore Skeptics on a volunteer basis.
In either case, I'd be interested in the details on how to apply. I might
be
interested in getting an account on the cleveland Freenet, and cross posting
useful stuff. I have never heard of the other.
... OFFLINE 1.52 "another jeezogrovelling moron for destruction of human
righ
ts!"
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Steve Crawford
Sub: Re: Lotto
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:26:50
--------
EID:a185 1b8ab340
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e61b
> WRONG! Those are the odds against picking all the numbers AND in the
> correct order as well. The lotto may be a bad bet but come on, it
> isn't THAT bad. 11 billion?? Everyone on the face of planet Earth
> would have to play to even have a winner about every 2nd or 3rd draw.
> The prizes would be spectacular, though. If you won, you might even
> be able to buy a stealth bomber or two. :-)
Second prize: a Bradley Fighting Vehicle
Third prize: TWO Bradley Fighting Vehicles!
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Donald Wilton
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:28:03
--------
EID:dcb2 1b8ab380
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e71b
> S > Good leads on additional information can be gotten from the
> National S > Center for Science Education, P.O. Box 9477, Berkeley,
> CA 94709, S > tel. #510-526-1674.
>
> What about the abundant FAQ sheets no doubt available on the Skeptic's
> Board, that deal with this and similar topics? }:>
A lot of them provided by a fellow named Donald Wilton, if memory
serves! ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Donald Wilton
Sub: Re: News from james randi
Date: 10 Dec 93 22:36:00
--------
EID:27cb 1b8ab480
MSGID: 8:916/1008 8b27e81b
> In either case, I'd be interested in the details on how to apply. I
> might be interested in getting an account on the cleveland Freenet,
> and cross posting useful stuff. I have never heard of the other.
Anson Kennedy sent me e-mail just today telling me that, yes, there
is some sort of CSICOP "mailing list", apparently run out of the
Cleveland Freenet. I have that at work, including the Internet
address to inquire to.
Also at work is information on the Internet "Skeptic" mailing list.
This is a genuine BITNET-type mailing list run by a listserv program,
providing group e-mail discussion among all the subscribers, via
Internet e-mail mechanisms. It's actually the successor to a popular
list on BITNET, run out of the YORKVM1 machine at York U., Ontario,
by Prof. Norm Gall. When that list suddenly went defunct, Taner Edis,
an active list particant and physics graduate student at Johns Hopkins,
stepped in to set up the current list as a replacement.
Sorry I can't provide specific Internet addresses at the moment. Maybe
someone else will speak up.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Geoff C. Marshall
Sub: pseudo-science
Date: 11 Dec 93 11:12:28
--------
EID:f7c7 1b8b5980
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d09ac26
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Geoff:
In a msg of , Geoff C. Marshall writes to Horst
Somm
er:
GCM> Thought Experiment.
GCM> It is 1920. Propose "Nuclear Radiation". Propose "Quantum Tunnelling"
GCM> What would the reaction be ? Somewhat similar to yours, perhaps ?
GCM> Don't assume we know it all. Don't assume that we know all the forces
GCM> there are to be known.
So what do you propose? Believe everything?
1) Many fantastic things in past have been things that were disbelieved.
2) Some fantastic things have come true.
So what's the conclusion? Believe all fantastic things? No? Some fanta
stic things? Which ones? How do you determine which ones to believe? Via
sci
entific rigour, or by how "neat" it sounds?
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Christopher Baker
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Brainwashing by the Feds and Media
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:30:38
--------
EID:301e 1b89b3c0
> That IS her theory: That the government is engaged in a secret war
> against the people, and blah blah blah :-)
whaddaya mean 'secret'? [grin]
TTFN.
Chris
--- DB B2102/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Make me believe it! - Titusville_FL_USA (1:374/14)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Re: LOTTO
Date: 12 Dec 93 03:55:11
--------
EID:8031 1b8c1ee0
DM> Funny how assumptions can make us look silly. WHy would you think
DM> they would only buy one ticket each?
Nah, my downfalling is a nasty habit of getting combinations mixed
up with permutations. I needed to devide the whole mess by factoral
six.
DM> We play 6/49, not 6/50, and the odds of getting the jackpot are just
DM> under 14 million to one against.
1:13,983,816
Which is still a "bunch".
You (or your investement pool) have to buy that many tickets if
you want to corner the market to insure a "win".
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Parthenogenesis
Date: 12 Dec 93 14:06:50
--------
EID:ad59 1b8c70c0
KP> Which is substantially different than the idea of the
KP> egg, alone, starting to divide by itself. Do you have any
KP> knowledge of anything along that line?
The development of eggs without fertilization is known as
parthenogenesis.
Very common in rotifers and plant lice.
Honneybees and related species do it to a limited extent. The male
drones are produced exclusively from unfertilized eggs.
Artificial parthenogenesis has been induced by subjecting eggs to
various chemical and mechanical stimuli. The eggs of marine
invertibrates, such as sea urchins, have been especially favorable
subjects, but Loeb, in one of the most famous experiments, produced
several frogs from unfertilied eggs by the mechanical stimulus of
pricking (no pun intended) the egg with a needle.
(Source: Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia)
Reproduction is far from a fool-proof process (fools are actually
pretty good at it). If all offspring were 'true' to thier genetic
parents, there would be no mutation or evolution. Even in humans a
chromosonal surplus or defecit occurs in about 1 in every 10,000
births.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 11:43:00
--------
EID:8862 1b8c5d60
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG ad0b96c0
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> See you there as soon as I've configured everything
> accordingly!
> (Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a
> pseudonym?)
What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now, taking advantage
o
f my right to use a name of my own choosing.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Mann
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 11 Dec 93 22:22:38
--------
EID:7098 1b8bb2c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d0a484e
Salue, David!
Jovis dies December 09 1993, Dixit David Mann ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ> LE>> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
SQ> LE>> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ>> I could say something here, but won't.
DM> Aw! Come on! I double-dog-dare you!
There's a serious hum eminating from Salt Lake City. :)
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Terry Goodman
To: Dominic Tremblay
Sub: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 12 Dec 93 01:22:00
--------
EID:0b20 1b8c0ac0
TG> Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
DT> Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I
> want to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am
> really wondering if media consultants is really a psychologist...
> Are there some that are charlatan...
Media consultants have expertise in advertising, promotion, sociology,
marketing, statistics, broadcasting, psychology, etc., etc. It's a
multi-disciplinary field combining various arts, sciences, theories,
superstitions, and magic. Most professional media consultants have
enough knowledge, skill, and savy to give good and worthwhile advice,
but the the theories they utilize often have weak scientific
foundations, so they generally sound more knowledgeable than they
actually are -- sort of like economists .
Come to think of it, the skills of a charlatan are very much the sort
of skills a media consultant tries to impart to his or her clients, so
if a media consultant *IS* a charlatan, he or she is probably a fairly
good media consultant, too.
--Terry
--- TMail v1.31.5
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--------
From: Beverlee Broadlick
To: Dan Mckinnon
Sub: Skeptic
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:54:46
--------
EID:67f6 1b853ec0
MSGID: 1:203/726.0 2d020446
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org be0068ff
Dan, Thank you for your well-thought out reply. It was to me a serious
questi
on and your reply was excellent. It is so difficult to address a problem/ques
tion with an open mind, Weaccess everything with our built in experiences
and
prejudices. It is difficult not to "tilt" the conclusion or resolution
of a
"problem" to a preconceived and possibly dearly held belief...Thank You
for yo
ur reply. I am going to mull over the points you expressed. Best wishes....B
everlee
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Vortex - Sacramento, CA. (916) 332-7141 (1:203/726)
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From: Beverlee Broadlick
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 05 Dec 93 08:05:06
--------
EID:eed7 1b8540a0
MSGID: 1:203/726.0 2d0206b2
REPLY: 1:343/124.0 2cfc1f86
hank You Tad for taking the time to anwer. It was a serious question (in
my m
ind). What Tad then, is an incredible claim? Is it something which a person
can not believe because of his "Frame of Reference"? Many scientists, for
ins
tance, have made incredible claims, that later were substaniated. In my
lifet
ime, it would have been incredible to claim thatman might one day journey
to t
he moon. When I was a child gfew would have believed that we would spend
hour
s looking at talking heads in a box. On the other hand they did believe
Lydia
Pinkham would cure everything!. Thank you Tad....Best wishes Beverlee
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Vortex - Sacramento, CA. (916) 332-7141 (1:203/726)
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From: David Macdonald
To: Jon Strayer
Sub: Jon Strayer
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:26:21
--------
EID:4112 1b888340
MSGID: 1:232/310 10011dee
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Demon Barney
Jon Strayer,
yes, the Barney message got out--and I am still laughing.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Jane Harris
Sub: Re: earlier message
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:47:38
--------
EID:cfc5 1b8965e0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FAF3EA
REPLY: 1:3642/703 86030B91
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Jane Harris really say something to All, on 06 Dec 93?
JH> This is in reference to the message about feamle eggs
JH> dividing and producing non-viable offspring. I think
JH> this occurs in amphibians, but I remember that in the
JH> late 80's, a reseacher (of course I can't remember
JH> the name !@#$ it) at Vanderbilt in Nashville used
JH> the nucleus of on mouse egg cell as the "sperm"
JH> when injected into another mouse egg, in
Which is substantially different than the idea of the egg, alone, startin
g to divide by itself. Do you have any knowledge of anything along that
line?
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Tom Bomhower
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:50:54
--------
EID:d489 1b896640
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FAF4AE
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org c39287d3
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Tom Bomhower really say something to Kerry Penny, on 07 Dec 93?
TB> An estimate that I have seen has one in a hundred
TB> thousand live births
TB> being (necessarily female) issue of their mothers'
TB> eggs only. Some of
But what is the source? Let's say I have a strong feeling that it can't
happen that way, but I could be wrong as that isn't my area of expertise.
TB> This leaves space aliens as the remaining explanation
TB> for all those four year old boys who look like clones
TB> of their thirty year old fathers.
Yeah. :)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
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--------
From: Michael Shea
To: Rick Moen
Sub: RE: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING
Date: 09 Dec 93 10:59:08
--------
EID:ebc0 1b895760
For the latest in backwards speech technologies... Check out Tools For
Exploration and their backwards tape recorder.
Tools For Exploration
4460 Redwood Highway Suite 2
San Rafael CA 94903
(800) 456-9887
--- TMail v1.31.4
* Origin: Hey, please don't pick up that ph{{{~|z{|{{{ (1:3628/11)
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--------
From: David Mann
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:32:33
--------
EID:978a 1b89a400
SQ> LE> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
SQ> sounds
SQ> LE> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ>
SQ> I could say something here, but won't.
Aw! Come on! I double-dog-dare you!
SQ> Steve (Former Utahn)
Bear (former S. Califian)
... Well I'M not superstitious, thank God...
--- PPoint 1.70
* Origin: Bear's Cozy Den: Ladies ALWAYS Welcome! (1:105/95.666)
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--------
From: Fred Hatfield
To: Dominic Tremblay
Sub: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 11 Dec 93 03:51:14
--------
EID:5764 1b8b1e67
In a message of <09 Dec 93 13:29:01>, Dominic Tremblay (1:249/132) writes:
DT>tg Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
DT>
DT>Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I want
DT>to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am really
DT>wondering if a media consultants is really a psychologist... Are there
DT>some that are charlatan...
I'm pretty sure that Ed Rollins is looking for employment right now...
Fred Hatfield K8VDU @ N5UXT.LA.USA ..Basin Street Jazz from {TheBigEasy}..
--- QM v1.00
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--------
From: Dan Mckinnon
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Re: LOTTO
Date: 10 Dec 93 16:39:11
--------
EID:37f4 1b8a84e0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org c51206ca
JH> DM> Some people have figured that when the lotto is up to, say, $80
JH> DM> million they should get a bunch of friends together and buy all
JH> DM> of the combinations so they would be assured a win.
JH> They'd need a big "BUNCH" of friends.
JH> Assumeing it's the same (01 to 50) six number game I'm familiar with,
JH> the chances of getting all six numbers is:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 (or 11,441,304,000 or a REAL BIG BUNCH)
JH> Even if you'er only interested in matching four numbers, you still
get:
JH> 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 or 5,527,200
JH> Which is still a sizable 'BUNCH'.
Funny how assumptions can make us look silly. WHy would you think
they would only buy one ticket each?
It would be an investment pool, with the return based on what
percentage of the tickets you had bought.
And your math is suspect, too. DO you realize you have the chance of
winning at 11 BILLION to one against!? _Nobody_ is likely to ever win at
that rate! But if somebody finally won it, it would probably be
humungous!!!
We play 6/49, not 6/50, and the odds of getting the jackpot are just
under 14 million to one against.
Dan
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * You can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their chests!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Rick Moen
Sub: TILTING AT CREATIONIS
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:20:00
--------
EID:787a 1b88ba80
-=> Quoting Rick Moen to Bruce Baugh <=-
> I particularly enjoy Robert Anton
> Wilson's little piece about the many categories there are besides
> unqualified true or false.
RM> It's indeed a very fun piece, and Wilson himself is quite a roar in
RM> person. However, in its zeal to moon the scientific establishment,
RM> it takes fire at a non-existent target. Wilson does a great deal of
RM> that, setting up straw men and then shooting them down -- and implying
RM> that people he resents are just like those straw men, without the
RM> troublesome need to actually produce evidence that this is so.
Perhaps he's a programmer with a degree in Fuzzy Logic, you know,
not quite false but not quite true. Like 40% false and 60% true
is more true than false but not true enough to be really true? ;-)
I've picked up my latest copy of NEXUS here in Oz. Wilson adds his
name to another mag Melbourne called New Dawn, where he says:
'Thank you for an excellent journal' in their ad.
The Nexus mag is a hoot. Where does Wilson hang out?
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 17+Gigs & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Dominic Tremblay
To: All
Sub: E.T. and Modem
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:01:04
--------
EID:1716 1b8aa820
PID: RA 2
MSGID: 1:249/132 52a78118
* Message originally:
From: Jean Richard
To : Michele Maheux
Date: 12-07-93
Area: "FidoNet - FRANCAIS"
* Forwarded by Dominic Tremblay from 1:249/132
On dirait qu'il y a des extra-terrestres qui essaient d'entrer
en communication avec mon ordinateur.
Pour au moins la troisieme fois, j'ai entendu un rapide petit
arpege de cinq ou six notes, venant du modem, et au volume plutot faible.
Cela se passe quand mon modem est ouvert, mais qu'il n'est pas en
communication.
Je trouve ca mysterieux.
* Translation by Dominic Tremblay from Mr. Mystery BBS (1:249/132)
Some extra-terrestrials seem to try to enter in communication with my computer
.
For at least the third time, I have heard a small arpeggio of 5 to 6 notes
com
ming from the Modem, with a really low volume.
This happens when my Modem is open and not in communication.
I think that it is really mysterious.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Mr. Mystery BBS: The only BBS for magicians in Canada (1:249/132)
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--------
From: Jay Hans
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 09 Dec 93 10:30:00
--------
EID:9b3b 1b8953c0
MSGID: 1:320/124@fidonet.org 7470fe75
TN> Several years ago (12 or so), I participated in a class project that
TN> looked at the issue of subliminal advertising. It was extremely
TN> difficult at the time to find any credible evidence as to its
TN> effectiveness.
TN> Lots and lots of rumors; especially with respect to movie theatre
TN> concession stands, but no hard facts.
SZ> Subliminals must be hard to get by most people. Considering
SZ> persistance of vision at 1/10th sec, plus, even a single frame 1/24th
SZ> or video half-frame 1/50th (or 1/30 and 1/60 for US viewers), you can
SZ> still see information clearly.
Face it, there is no objective data that indicates that subliminal
messages work. In fact, the guy who started the whole thing as an advertising
exec (figures!) in the late 1950's has admitted he made the whole thing
up
AND masked it in pseudo-psychological terminology. Can anyone
point to ANY LITERATURE in ANY reputable journal which shows that "subliminal"
cues affects any behavior ?
Since I'm on a roll here, can anyone point to any references in any
reputable academic journal that shows that polygraph testing works ?
To me, both these areas represent "urban legend" type areas.
... E=MC(2) {-/+ 1 dB}
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- QScan v1.02b
* Origin: CIN BBS * 1.2 Gigs/6 CD-ROMS * 203-445-0607 * Groton CT (1:320/124)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: the Vollmer exorcism
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:46:42
--------
EID:35b3 1b8b8dc0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a07e0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 98151eea
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Marian Starwatche
r:
FR> I know that actual incidents of schizophrenia is rather rare.
Depends on what you mean by "rather rare". I suspect, however, in the se
nse that you're using it, that you're incorrect.
FR> Here in the
FR> United States we seem to have a problem with multiple personality disorde
rs
FR> rather than pathological bifurcation of personality.
Perhaps it was multiple personality disorder you were thinking of? That
is most certainly quite rare.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Saga of the Lucky Dollar
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:52:08
--------
EID:41e8 1b8b8e80
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a08e8
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 988ad744
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to Jackson Harding:
FR> If anyone touches my Diet Coke there _will_ be civil war. Though there's
FR> no doubt it can be addictive, I, at least, hope that it's merely
FR> psychological. And it keeps me filled during the day which helps keep
me
at
FR> 140 pounds.
Nothing wrong with weighing 140 -- or a little less :)
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: John informs us about skeptics
Date: 11 Dec 93 17:55:48
--------
EID:bc12 1b8b8ee0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0a0a7a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 990b248e
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Fredric:
In a msg of , Fredric Rice writes to All:
CJH>> Define a honest skeptic.
jg>> One who has the balls to face the implications of his own world view.
jg>> Ie. meaninglessness, despair, nothingness, a life in which there is
jg>> no intrinsic difference between loving your children and screwing
jg>> them, no difference between Torquemada watching his victims die
jg>> screaming and Mother Theresa showing mercy to the dying in Calcutta,
jg>> no difference between Hitler's final solution and Bob Geldof's
jg>> crusade to save children in Africa.
Sounds like some existentialism a friend of mine has been reading recentl
y. Where's the skepticism?
jg>> No difference because there is
jg>> no moral superiority nor inferiority in any of these acts b/c there
is
jg>> NO rulemaker and thus no rules.
Oh no! The bitter, "if there's no god, then all is moral anarchy!"
jg>> inviolable fact. In short, an honest skeptic is someone who recognizes
jg>> that Nietzche was right,
Aside from the fact that it's NietzSche, I'm not surprised that this name
was invoked. He's a popular fellow to misunderstand.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 15:07:08
--------
EID:9c6d 1b8c78e0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38867b13
In a msg to Jon Strayer on , Charlie Wilson of 1:209/226 writes:
JS> There is both the fact of evolution and the theories that seek to
JS> explain it. Many creationsist are confused by this.
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
What do you have trouble understanding?
Gravity is a fact, and there are seveal theories to explain it.
Do you doubt gravity?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Linda Elston @ 933/4
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 12 Dec 93 18:02:50
--------
EID:8c4a 1b8c9040
MSGID: 8:933/4.0 2d0ba31a
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d06426a
LE> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely
LE> audible humming sounds
LE> emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in Utah?
SQ> I could say something here, but won't.
SQ> Steve (Former Utahn)
It'd probably depend on WHAT you said. >G<
I heard someone mention something similar happened in Georgia or some southern
state and the findings had to do with a shifting of the plates, which made
se
nse. The only thing I question, is around the Taos area and Utah I think
lies
the general area of the Continental Divide, but I'm not sure what would
be aro
und Georgia. (Of course, I'm no geologist either. >G<)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
# Origin: The People's Advocate & Post : 405.391.6604 (8:933/4)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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PATH: 933/4 1 8/8 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 14 Dec 93 00:19:47
--------
EID:e490 1b8e0260
DB> Gravity is a fact, and there are seveal theories to explain it.
DB> Do you doubt gravity?
Excelent analogy! (I'm adding it to my 'keepers'.)
And when you get to super-dense objects like neutron stars and black
holes, you find that no one theory covers all the phenomenon
adequately.
"Missing links"... no doubt.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 13 Dec 93 06:59:30
--------
EID:20fe 1b8d3760
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 388f33d9
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d0896ac
In a msg to Rick Moen @ 916/1008 on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writes:
AK> The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently started
AK> up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't have
Can you send me a copy of the mailing list? When Barry originally sent
it out
, my address was still wrong, and he hasn't re-sent it.
Thanks.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 13 Dec 93 07:00:24
--------
EID:20fe 1b8d3800
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 388f357b
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d089c8a
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Anson Kennedy of 1:133/208
writ
es:
DB>Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out
DB>only a few things so far (I think they were a copy of the
DB>list itself, a notice from Anson about having newsletters
DB>FTPable, and a few other minor things), but it's there.
DB>
AK> When did you see that notice?
I didn't. I was going on what Barry told me.
(Remember, I haven't seen ANYTHING from the list yet. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 12 Dec 93 14:27:00
--------
EID:f8b0 1b8c7360
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d0b7084
On 12-10-93, J.j. Hitt actually wrote the following about Re: Your daily
chuckle to Steve Quarrella:
JH> The KJV translators and William Shakespere were contemporaries.
JH> Shakespere's plays give us a reasonably large sampling of how people
JH> actually spoke and wrote durring the 16th/17th centuries.
This is correct. They all spoke in iambic pentameter and were excellent
rhymers.
--- Anson
___
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Home BBS of The Georgia Skeptics (1:133/208)
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--------
From: Eric Greene
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 12 Dec 93 12:18:18
--------
EID:deba 1b8c6240
MSGID: 1:133/208.1 2d0b532d
Hiya Charlie -
09 Dec 93, Charlie Wilson writes to Jon Strayer:
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories are required
to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
CW> Charlie
Of course. Gravity is a fact, yet theories are needed to explain it. Light
i
s a fact, yet quantum theory is a way of explaining it. The bending of
light
by mass is a fact, and the Theory of Relativity is offered as an explanation.
This is how science works, ya know!
Eric
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: Astronomical Society BBS - (404)321-5904 (1:133/208.1)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: the Vollmer exorcism
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:00:51
--------
EID:4ef8 1b909819
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe09
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d0a07e0
PID: FM 2.02
taw> G'day Fredric:
Hay! Greetings.
FR> I know that actual incidents of schizophrenia is rather rare.
taw> Depends on what you mean by "rather rare". I suspect, however,
taw> in the sense that you're using it, that you're incorrect.
How would _I_ know? I'm a _programmer_, not a medical doctor!
Really, it wouldn't surprise me if I'm totally wrong. There's always a
first!
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: John informs us about skeptics
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:40:48
--------
EID:56ae 1b909d18
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0a
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d0a0a7a
PID: FM 2.02
CJH>> Define a honest skeptic.
jg>> One who has the balls to face the implications of his own world view.
jg>> Ie. meaninglessness, despair, nothingness, a life in which there is
jg>> no intrinsic difference between loving your children and screwing
jg>> them...
Charming, loving, person, isn't he?
taw> Sounds like some existentialism a friend of mine has
taw> been reading recently. Where's the skepticism?
John Gilchrists' rather lengthy tirade had nothing to do with any philosophy
or, really, anything rational whatsoever. Though he holds no clues as to
what
organized skepticism is about, he equates it, apparently, with ideologies
whi
ch embrace violence and destruction, rape and pillage. The genesis of this
oc
cult belief is, of course, his rather horrific dismemberment at the bloody
han
ds of a gang of atheists who demanded that he either put up or shut up after
h
e made a bevy of unusual and untestable claims which included said atheists.
So for a year his entrails have followed him around wherever he's gone and
he
points at them to anyone who will pity his sad dissassemblement claiming
that
skepticism has done this to him. He read about organized skeptics prior
to th
e Hume classification and claimed that all skeptics met his ideological
pictur
e of his own construction in his own bemuddled mind.
These wounds have been allowed to become infected and they've festered for
ove
r a year now. Anyone who expresses disbelief at his deities is responsable
fo
r all the worlds woes. Humanity killed his deities and so now he thinks
that
humanity must destroy itself -- because it must.
John Gillchrist according to Fred -- the brief and unauthorized version.
jg>> No difference because there is no moral superiority nor
jg> inferiority in any of these acts b/c there is NO rulemaker
jg> and thus no rules.
taw> Oh no! The bitter, "if there's no god, then all is moral anarchy!"
The same song and dance, coupled with the old side-step that he performed
for
us a year ago -- include _everyone_ in his bizzare complaint about the woes
of
the world and then claim that we know we're to blame but simply don't care
as
we're controlled by his bad deity.
It's very annoying that I'm away from the archives. I could network mail
both
yourself and Rick copies of what transpired to foment these ideas about
skept
ics from the facets that he's allowed others to see.
No evidence, of course. Nothing testable of course. Yet he includes all
of h
umanity in his ignorance and superstitious dred. When asked about the godless
nations on this planet or those nations with hold numbers of believers in
dei
ties other than his and the response was typical: utter silence as yet another
wound goes left untreated.
jg>> inviolable fact. In short, an honest skeptic is
jg>> someone who recognizes that Nietzche was right,
taw> Aside from the fact that it's NietzSche, I'm not surprised that
taw> this name was invoked. He's a popular fellow to misunderstand.
I've never read him yet I've read Kant and Spinoza so I suppose Nietzsche
shou
ld be. Nietzsche _was_ quite correct. Yet I wonder if he failed to include
a
ll of the deities which have come before the ones which were his contemporarie
s among his domestic populace.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 19:55:40
--------
EID:bd2e 1b909ef4
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0b
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 38867b13
PID: FM 2.02
JS> There is both the fact of evolution and the theories that seek
JS> to explain it. Many creationsist are confused by this.
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories
CW> are required to explain it. Hmmmmm...
db> What do you have trouble understanding?
One wonders if he has an alternate explanation for the life on this planet.
Speaking of mythologies.
I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that The People
lived
on three other planets prior to coming here in the form of First Man and
Firs
t Woman (in that order.) They brought with them all the animals and plants
th
at were on the third planet and came to the "center" of the Earth.
It's rather like the classical Christian mythologies of "Adam and Eve" except
that they bring the animals (two by two) and plants with them on some kind
of
a
boat when they arive. The global-flood myth comes later as an attempt of
Rive
r
Brother trying to drown Coyote Trickster because he stole River Brothers'
baby.
It's just interesting reading. Rather than the seven-day creation mythologies
, this one simply has them coming from another planet and leaves the origins
u
nexplained rather than invoke deity to explain it.
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 16 Dec 93 20:04:38
--------
EID:6b8d 1b90a093
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0c
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d0b7084
PID: FM 2.02
JH> The KJV translators and William Shakespere were contemporaries.
JH> Shakespere's plays give us a reasonably large sampling of how people
JH> actually spoke and wrote durring the 16th/17th centuries.
ak> This is correct. They all spoke in iambic
ak> pentameter and were excellent rhymers.
I am reminded of "Moonlighting" when they performed "The Tameing of the
Shrew"
(pardon my horrific spelling!) and did such a wonderful job of it. At the
en
d the cast declaired their honest hatred for iambic pentameter.
Oh: Most of it was, I should say. Bruce broke into song at the wedding
of the
tied-up and gagged Shrew. Such fun! "I asked my doctor; can you
te
ll me please? What is ailling me?" (Can you hear me say yeah, yeah, yeah,
ye
ah, yeah) "What I really need?"
I hope William S. wouldn't mind so very much. when asked if he takes this
man
to be her lawfully wedded husband, she struggled and screamed behind her
gag
and Bruce utters in falsetto soto-voice, "I do!"
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
SEEN-BY: 102/851 890
PATH: 102/890
--------
From: Jim Dritsas
To: Linda Elston
Sub: Strange hum
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:09:11
--------
EID:4c50 1b8c8920
MSGID: 1:259/208@fidonet.org c6114ba5
Hello, Linda.
-> Has anyone else heard about the strange, barely audible humming
-> sounds emanating from an unknown origin in Taos and some town in
-> Utah? I've heard it
This is one theory: Many people living in areas where Crop Circles are
discovered, frequently report HUMMING type noises emanating from the
vincinity in which a crop circle is discovered. These noises are mostly
heard at night, as far as I know. Maybe Taos and this town in Utah have
some crop fields nearby?
Regards, Jim
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff247/b]
* Origin: UFO Intelligence Network * Toronto ONT * 905-459-6259
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--------
From: Charlie Wilson
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Well-poisoning redux
Date: 13 Dec 93 05:14:00
--------
EID:47bc 1b8d29c0
PID: QE 2.76-
I was shocked to see Fredric Rice saying to Charlie Wilson:
>> Heh...Ricky, what you have engaged in is a childish game
FR> RM@9> ^^^^^
FR> RM@9> Folks, need I say more? ;->
cw> Why is it you're unable to be consise, accurate and
cw> perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
FR> Do you think that calling Rick "Ricky" was not childish? I'm just
FR> curious. No need to get upset.
Hey, I don't get upset over _words_. If you can, follow the thread
back to the beginning and you'll see where I _finally_ resorted to the
"Ricky" line. I replied in this manner _only_ after much baiting. 'way
back when, I had presented a _hypothetical_ scenario....and was quickly
attacked. I have no problem with you, Rick or anyone else. But I _do_
weary of horrid misquoting of my words followed by snide "replies" that
don't _even_ quote all of what I had to say. Hence, the eventual
"Ricky" comment. Since this all began, I've been called all sorts of
things....just because I refuse to follow the party line. It's like
this, "evolution is a fact, but all solid info is theory" stuff. It's
like psychology...if there ever was a _theory_....! :) But I don't
mind....hopefully I keep minds (especially my own) in a state of flux...
ready for new info and ready to integrate.
In one way it's amusing...I truly consider myself a skeptic (_not_
the Rick M. version but the dictionary version). I just refuse to lock
into this "show me an alien ashtray" idea of proof vs. the fact _too_
many people have experienced _something_ to dismiss the entire
phenomenon as "psycho-babble" version of proof. I suppose I would like
to see the skeptic echo reach a middle ground. At least _consider_
other possibilities....._prior_ to the bulk of the AMA saying "it's
impossible." (for ex) But perhaps that, in itself, exceeds the
parameters of the echo. Oh well! :)
Most Sincerely - Charlie
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Desert Frenzy BBS - Mutual UFO Network (1:209/226.0)
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: James Bryant
Sub: SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISIN
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:12:00
--------
EID:f290 1b89b180
-=> Quoting James Bryant to Steve Quarrella <=-
JB> to...the babes are babe-a-licious GDR) Normally, the mags with the
JB> nasty gals use the words more often, like "sex" and "c*&t" and "f%$k"
JB> and things like that. You'd have to look for yourself. Normally, the
JB> letters are a little bit lighter than the surrounding skin, or are vein
JB> colored.
I must say I'm highly skeptical about this. After all, whats the mileage
in the hidden words that you point out? They're already in black and
white on the OPPOSING pages! (or didn't you look at the text? ).
Those words aren't selling product, and if one can assume it leads one
on to buy more mags, surely the picture accounts for 99.9% of the
inclination to buy! I see those words in my Macquarie dictionary, but
I don't get the urge to buy Playboy. I hear them on TV and Radio, and
see them in subtitled SBS programs [SBS is the Oz ethnic channel].
All of these occurrences haven't brought buying mags or videos to mind.
I think you might be a bit confused with botched airbrushing! These
things would be very easy to prove nowadays be scanning the image and
processing it for contrast changes. I can't see the point in what you
gave as evidences of subliminal advertising, in fact, as an example,
it misses the concept of advertising completely!
That's all from me on this subject - I've had my say ;-)
MrZ
... Stupidity isn't a condition, it's a career!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 17+Gigs & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationists
Date: 17 Dec 93 11:03:12
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet af896a6a
PID: FM 2.02
cw> Why is it you're unable to be consise, accurate and
cw> perhaps, most amazingly....mature???
FR> Do you think that calling Rick "Ricky" was not
FR> childish? I'm just curious. No need to get upset.
cw> Hey, I don't get upset over _words_. If you can, follow
cw> the thread back to the beginning and you'll see where I
cw> _finally_ resorted to the "Ricky" line.
I was merely curious whether you considered using "Ricky" to be mature.
I rea
lly am not interested in the motivation behind it.
---
* Origin: Creationists: six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Hollandaise Sauce
Date: 17 Dec 93 16:00:00
--------
EID:623b 1b918000
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff355
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0a
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
So, any chance of your return from exile soon?
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 17 Dec 93 16:15:00
--------
EID:91fa 1b9181e0
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff356
REPLY: 8:916/1008 9027b2be
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> You're more distinctively identified by that handle than most
> people
> are, on-line, who use the names they write on their grocery
> cheques
It's a form of self description, dr pepper is the national drink of gamers
and
late night programmers.
> -- and it's not as if Big Brother can't figure out from the
> nodelist where to come pick you up.
Of course the nodelist shows the handle of the sysop. Otoh, i have given
out m
y address and voice number many times.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Sharon Allsup
Sub: Computer City
Date: 17 Dec 93 23:21:02
--------
EID:06ef 1b91baa0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d128dfc
REPLY: 1:109/361.1 2d1144a6
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
SA> There is a Computer City chain down here....might be the same company.
SA
>
SA> I've been in two of their local stores. Neither were impressive.
The MACers. Alien beings from a dying design. Their mission...the mainstream
computing society. Their purpose... to make it *their* world.
SA> Similar in concept to CompUSA/MicroCenter; prices were
SA> nothing exceptional. Somewhere in between going to a mall store and
the
SA> warehouses. The selection was very poor compared to the warehouses.
David Vincent has seen them. For him, it began one dark night at a lone
shopp
ing mall...looking for a new PC Superstore, that he never found.
SA> they had more MAC stuff than I've seen at any place not dealing in MAC.
Now...David knows that the MACers are here. That they have cloned into
PC for
m. Somehow he must convince a disbelieving IBM world, that the nightmare
has
begun...
--- FD 2.20a-mL/Fmail 0.96g+
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * (1:109/601)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Subliminal advertising
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:46:52
--------
EID:492f 1b8c8dc0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Charlie!
9 Dec 93, dixit Charlie Wilson ad Rick Moen @ 916/10
CW> Thanks, Rick, I'll look it up. To save me effort, if you
CW> have it around, can you provide ISBN#, paperback or
CW> hardbound, publisher, etc.? Second, is Poundstone
CW> considered a loon or a serious researcher?
Poundstone is quite serious, and is not what would be considered "a crank".
Here are the ISBNs. All but the third are available in softcover:
BIG SECRETS: 0688048307
BIGGER SECRETS: 0395453976
BIGGEST SECRETS: 0688115292
CW> _plainly_ heard in reverse. The only one I remember
CW> word-for-word was at the start of ELO's "Face The Music"
CW> LP. The dialogue says, "Music is reversible but time is
CW> not; turn back, turn back, turn back..."
From "Fire on High"
CW> Real satan stuff, eh??? :)
Nope.
... Practical politics consists of ignoring the facts.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: J.j. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 12 Dec 93 17:51:58
--------
EID:f695 1b8c8e60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, J.J.!
10 Dec 93, dixit J.J. Hitt ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Like I've been saying in HOLYSMOKE, I really would like to
SQ>> see his explanation of Biblical English, considering that
SQ>> the world's Germanic scholars currently hold nothing like
SQ>> it in their archives.
JH> Germanic? (Can you expand on that one please?)
Referring to the Germanic family of languages, including German, English,
Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Afrikaans, Yiddish, Icelandic, Frisian,
and a whole slew of others I can't name off the top of my head.
Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English was
spoken in Biblical times. The problem here is that scholars who study
English do not have examples of English going back that far (Hint: Because
there is no such thing.), and I would like to discuss this with Mr.
Stokes further.
JH> The answer is rather simple, the King James translators used a
JH> deliberately archic (and hence artificial) style.
Ralph would tell you that the answer is that Jesus and his contemporaries
spoke English. I kid you not.
... Excuse me, I have to recharge my flamethrower.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Valencia...Steven in THE TIME MEDDLER: "IDBI!" (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 13 Dec 93 23:27:35
--------
EID:3d50 1b8dbb60
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA3867
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Charlie Wilson really say something to Jon Strayer, on 09 Dec 93?
CW> I see....evolution itself is a "fact" but theories
CW> are required to
CW> explain it. Hmmmmm...
Much as when you hold a deadweight in your hand, and suddenly release it,
it travels down towards the Earth. Science came up with a theory to explain
the observed event. The fact of gravity is explained by the theory of gravity
.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Steve Hendren
Sub: Re: Whackos in Russia
Date: 13 Dec 93 23:32:28
--------
EID:2632 1b8dbc00
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11FA398C
PID: TransAmiga 1.11/c 7010
Did Steve Hendren really say something to Kerry Penny, on 09 Dec 93?
SH> Actually, what he's referring to is called
SH> parthenogenesis. It occurs in some
You know, for the life of me I was trying to recall the term parthenogene
sis. I knew there was a term for it, but couldn't remember it.
SH> lower forms of vertebrate life, in fact the most
SH> sophisticated species I can
SH> remember hearing about it occurring in (yeesh! it's
SH> been a long time since
SH> I took embryology) is turkeys.I seem to remember
Okay. Thanks for the info.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Anson Kennedy
Sub: Re: Your daily chuckle
Date: 14 Dec 93 23:03:23
--------
EID:065d 1b8eb860
AK> This is correct. They all spoke in iambic pentameter and were excellent
AK> rhymers.
Hehehe.....
An admittedly less than perfect example.
I was looking for a common, readily available work and that small
"detail" escaped me.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Charlie Wilson
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 15:48:00
--------
EID:8862 1b907e00
TID: IMAIL 1.40G3/q+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af0fa66f
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC00007F
> Oops! I thought this echo dealt in truth. My mistake. :)
This echo deals in the examination of extrordinary claims, a rational endeavor
. For truth, see a religious or philosophical echo. I thought this had been
ex
plained to you already.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:103/241)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: Parthenogenesis
Date: 17 Dec 93 00:21:17
--------
EID:ad59 1b9102a0
KP> Call me skeptical about this, but I can't see it
KP> happening in humans. Again, though, I do not have
KP> complete knowledge of the field.
Ok... you're skeptical. ;)
I myself dont have any problem in seeing "it" happening with humans.
Or rather, I am not all that certain that an unfertilized egg cant go
into a "run away" condition all by itself.
What I have problems with is the idea that it could result in a
healthy live birth. (In humans only about 40 percent of conceptions
end in birth, the majority abort spontaneously without the woman even
knowing she's pregnant. Dont ask me HOW they collected the data for
that statistic, I'm still wondering myself...)
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: J.J. Hitt
To: All
Sub: The date of "creation"
Date: 17 Dec 93 00:48:05
--------
EID:91ac 1b910600
> Creationism asserts that the entire universe was
> created--as recounted in the Bible--in a preiod of seven
> (presumably twenty-four-hour) days. The Bible gives no date
> for the creation, but in the middle 1600s, a Christian
> scholar, Archbishop Usher, used the "begats" in the Bible to
> determine that the creation took place in 4004 B.C.
(Pardon me while I think out loud for a moment, I'll be brief..)
Poor ol' Bishop U. I see many authors who refer to him, but I feel
few if any really do the old fellow justice. Many love to cite the
4004 BC date, but rarely do any mention that his was the FIRST
attempt to determine the age of the earth.
I'll admit that he'd have gotten much better results if he had
collected his data from the then infantile sciences of Astronomy and
Geology instead of the Bible, but in asking a very legitimate
question ("How old is the world?) that had before his day been totaly
unasked, his effort was a major milestone in human inquiry.
--- EZPoint V2.2
* Origin: Do NOT quote Origin lines, please! (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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--------
From: Fred Hatfield
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: BRAINWASHING BY THE FEDS
Date: 17 Dec 93 03:55:02
--------
EID:960a 1b911ee1
In a message of <14 Dec 93 00:37:26>, Tad Cook (1:343/124) writes:
TC> DT>tg Here in the states we call them "media consultants."
TC> DT>
TC> DT>Thank you. I dind't know. I am searching for one at the moment. I
TC> DT>want to present miself as a candidate to the next election. I am
TC> DT>really wondering if a media consultants is really a psychologist...
TC> DT>Are there some that are charlatan...
TC> FH>
TC> FH> I'm pretty sure that Ed Rollins is looking for employment right
now..
TC>Hey, Fred! Good to see ya here! I didn't know you made it to
TC>the Skeptic's echo.
With all my CSCIOP interests, I lurk in many echoes. I've been drifting
in an
d out of this one for a few years.
Thanks for the welcome, Tad.
Fred Hatfield K8VDU @ N5UXT.LA.USA ..Basin Street Jazz from {TheBigEasy}..
--- QM v1.00
* Origin: The Digital Cottage in New Orleans 504-897-6614 (1:396/65.0)
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--------
From: Steve Horrighs
To: Crackpot
Sub: Hey there!
Date: 16 Dec 93 01:06:11
--------
EID:84ec 1b9008c0
MSGID: 1:2430/2@fidonet.org c804f067
Sir,
i was just wondering if you were still skeptical about Satellite
delivery system?
:)
Steve
* QMPro 1.51 * Tried to play my shoehorn... all I got was footnotes!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: Fantasy Land BBS * Williamsville, IL * 217-566-3775 (1:2430/2)
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--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: J.J. Hitt
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 16 Dec 93 13:29:10
--------
EID:ce09 1b906ba0
MSGID: 1:105/95 2d10a941
SQ>> Ralph Stokes is a Fundamentalist Christian who claims that English
was
SQ>> spoken in Biblical times.
JJH> THUD!
JJH> I'm really going to have to turn HOLYSMOKES on, I cant miss this.
JJH> (But it's going to mean buying a high speed modem, I'm afraid)
If it's true, it's a fresh claim. The one _I_ saw Ralph make is that the
King
James Bible is a perfect, inerrant translation - not that the folks of classic
al Palestine spoke English, but that God inspired the KJV translators to
produ
ce a 100% accurate rendering into English.
Silly enough, but not _that_ silly.
-=[ Bruce ]=-
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: APâ Online, Portland, OR - Forward in all directions! (1:105/95)
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--------
From: Jane Harris
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: Re: earlier message
Date: 16 Dec 93 12:44:00
--------
EID:8d75 1b906580
MSGID: 1:3642/703 860DB939
KP>Did Jane Harris really say something to All, on 06 Dec 93?
JH> This is in reference to the message about feamle eggs
JH> dividing and producing non-viable offspring. I think
KP> Which is substantially different than the idea of the egg, alone,
star
t
KP>to divide by itself. Do you have any knowledge of anything along that
line
?
KP>--- TransAmiga BBS v1.11g6
KP> * Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
I agree, that is totaly different, and I don't know of any instance of that,
but I will check around.
---
þ DeLuxeý 1.25 #12781 þ Stand on the razor's edge, expect to get cut
--- WM v3.10/93-1141
* Origin: Ice Palace BBS (1:3642/703)
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--------
From: Mark Patterson @ 916/1008
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Subliminal advertisin
Date: 15 Dec 93 01:11:00
--------
EID:f5d2 1b8f0960
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027cc1b
-=> Quoting Sysop to Charlie Wilson <=-
Sy> I'd forgotten about that one. Poundstone tells about another one,
Sy> from Pink Floyd, where the voice congratulates you for finding the
Sy> secret message, and says you can pick up your prize care of Old Pink.
Sy> That one cracked me up.
Another good one can be seen in the movie "Dream Descevers" About the
families in Nevada who sued Judas Priest over the claim that the
backmasked "Do it, Do it" caused their children attempt suicide. At the
trial, the atty for the family asked the lead singer if there was anything
backmasked on the album, the lead singer said "yeah." On the cross
examination by his attorney, the lead singer played the backmasked bit.
The line was "I asked her for a peppermint. I asked her to bring me
one"
Great movie, BTW, I highly recommend it.
... Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it is what you put into it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
# Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 1:125/27 (8:916/100
8)
* Origin: Gateway System to/from RBBS-NET (RBBS-PC 1:10/8)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: Skeptic
Date: 16 Dec 93 23:39:33
--------
EID:f14f 1b90bce0
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027b1be
DB> Don't be so quick to attack Kurtz.
I'm surprised I should have to make this point with _you_, but make it
I shall: I have not attacked, do not attack, and shall not attack Prof.
Kurtz. I spoke critically about particular _statements and actions_
of his. Not only do I not attack his personal characteristics, but
also I'm not particularly well acquainted with them.
DB> Skepticism, as a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint, is different from
DB> skepticism as most organized skeptics practice it.
There is not now, and never has been, any school of philosophy called
skepticism -- unless you are prepared to go back to obscure parts of
ancient Greek culture, to severely stretch a point. In particular,
launching into a long description of more-or-less what everyone else
calls ethical humanism, and deciding to label it "skepticism", does
not make it a "philosophical viewpoint".
Further, doing this as the head of a group furthering a very different,
long-established effort, about which far too many people are confused
already -- an effort that for good reasons is at some pains to make
sure people don't think it an ideology -- poses the very large problems
that I referred briefly to, and that you and I both know all too well.
DB> Remember that Kurtz IS a philosopher.
And I'm a bicyclist -- but I don't go around claiming that skepticism
is a means of transportation. ;->
Skepticism means critical inquiry into whether testable claims on the
fringes of science have merit.
DB> No, that's what skepticism means as we use it.
"We" refers to dozens of skeptics' groups around the world, for
seventeen years -- and maintaining the clarity of what we mean by that,
and what we specifically do not, has always been and is now of
particular importance. "Non-we" refers to Prof. Paul Kurtz, speaking
for himself, alone.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: Tilting at creationist
Date: 16 Dec 93 23:49:27
--------
EID:eb9f 1b90be20
MSGID: 8:916/1008 9027b2be
CS>DP> (Just curious: why is it, in the "truth" echo, you use a
CS>DP> pseudonym?)
DP> What "truth" echo? I have used this handle for 9 years now, taking
DP> advantage of my right to use a name of my own choosing.
You're more distinctively identified by that handle than most people
are, on-line, who use the names they write on their grocery cheques
-- and it's not as if Big Brother can't figure out from the nodelist
where to come pick you up.
If you were seeking irresponsible anonymity, one would think you would
pick some really generic, non-distinctive name, like, say, "Smith". ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Anson Kennedy
To: All
Sub: Skeptics' Xmas Movie
Date: 16 Dec 93 22:01:00
--------
EID:20cc 1b90b020
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d1120ec
Has anyone seen the new skeptics' Christmas movie?
It's called "Coincidence on 34th Street."
___Anson
---
X WinQwk 2.0 #0 X Unregistered Evaluation Copy
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Rick Moen @ 916/1008
Sub: Re: News from james randi
Date: 16 Dec 93 07:05:13
--------
EID:1099 1b9038a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38b6cdd6
REPLY: 8:916/1008 8d27d71b
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Rick Moen @ 916/1008 of 8:916/1
008 writes:
> Nope, CSICOP has an E-Mail mailing list. They have put out only a few
> things so far (I think they were a copy of the list itself, a notice
> from Anson about having newsletters FTPable, and a few other minor
> things), but it's there.
RM@9>
RM@9> Well, that's a step forward, but it sounds as if they're not yet
RM@9> operating a mailing list in the tradtional sense of the term, that
RM@9> it's just a one-way broadcast mechanism for news and announcements.
Mostly, but they do do send out broadcasts submitted by members of the list,
i
f they are appropriate.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Ark Hoax
Date: 16 Dec 93 07:07:28
--------
EID:8673 1b9038e0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38b6d30d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet ad0bb00b
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoN
et writes:
db> George Jammal Mime Show
db> 7101 Eastondale Ave.
db> Long Beach, CA 90805
FR> Thank you much. I'll send him a post card from Koudekerk.
He was on Inside Edition yesterday, but apparently nobody in this hick town
ru
ns the show. I'm gonna look into getting a tape.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Wall St. Journal
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:34:28
--------
EID:85aa 1b909440
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd274d
I don't know if anybody's been following the stuff going on in the Wall
St. Jo
urnal, but here is some of it. Below is an opinion piece that appeared
on Dec
ember 6, written by Stephen C. Meyer of Whitworth College in Spokane, Washingt
on. In the next few messages are some info that is NOT contained in this
piec
e. I would suggest you read them all before replying to any.
(Thanks to Jim Lippard for forwarding this all to me.)
==========================================================================
When most of us think of the controversy over evolution in the public
schools, we are likely to think of fundamentalists pulling teachers from
their classrooms and placing them in the dock. Images from the infamous
Scopes "monkey" trial of 1925 come to mind. Unfortunately, intolerance
of
this sort has shown itself in California in the 1990s as a result of
students complaining about a biology instructor. Unlike the original Scopes
case, however, this case involves a distinguished biology professor at a
major university - indeed, an acknowledged expert on evolutionary theory.
Also unlike Scopes, the teacher was forbidden to teach his course not
because he taught evolutionary theory (which he did) but because he offered
a critical assessment of it. The controversy first emerged last fall
after Dean Kenyon, a biology professor at San Francisco State University,
was ordered not to teach "creationism" by John Hafernik, the chairman of
his biology department. Mr. Kenyon, who included three lectures in
biological orgins in his introductory course, had for many years made a
practice of exposing students to both evolutionary theory and evidence
uncongenial to it. He also discussed the philosophical controversies
raised by the issue and his own view that living systems display evidence
of intelligent design - a view not incompatible with some forms of
evolutionary thinking. Mr. Hafernik accused Mr. Kenyon of teaching what
he characterized as biblical creationism and ordered him to stop. After
Mr. Hafernik's decree, Mr. Kenyon asked for clarification. He wrote the
dean, Jim Kelley, asking what exactly he could not discuss. Was he
"forbidden to mention to students that there are important disputes among
scientists about whether or not chemical evolution could have taken
place on the ancient earth?" Mr. Kelley replied by insisting that Mr.
Kenyon "teach the dominant scientific view," not the religious view of
"special creation on a young earth." Mr. Kenyon replied again (I
paraphrase): I do teach the dominant view. But I also discuss problems
with the dominant view and that some biologists see evidence of
intelligent design. He received no reply. Instead, he was yanked from
teaching introductory biology and reassigned to labs. There are several
disturbing aspects to this story. First, Mr. Kenyon is an authority on
chemical evolutionary theory and the scientific study of the origin of
life. He has a Ph.D. in biophysics from Stanford and is the co-author of
a
seminal theoretical work titled "Biochemical Predestination" (1969). The
book articulated what was arguably the most plausible evolutionary account
of how a living cell might have organized itself from chemicals in the "
primordial soup." Mr. Kenyon's subsequent work resulted in numerous
scientific publications on the orgin-of-life problem. But by the late
1970s, Mr. Kenyon began to question some of his own earlier ideas.
Experiements (some performed by Mr. Kenyon himself) increasingly
contradicted the dominant view in his field. Laboratory work suggested
that
simple chemicals do not arrange themselves into complex information-bearing
molecules such as DNA - without, that is, "guidance" from human
experimenters. To Mr. Kenyon and others, such results raised important
questions about how "naturalistic" the origin of life really was. If
undirected chemical processes cannot produce the coded strands of
information found in even the simplest cells, could perhaps a directing
intelligence have played a role? By the 1980s, Mr. Kenyon had adopted the
second view. That a man of Mr. Kenyon's stature should now be forced to
lobby for the right to teach introductory biology, whatever his current
view
of origins, is absurdly comic. Mr. Kenyon knows perhaps as much as anyone
in the world about a problem that has stymied an entire generation of
research scientists. Yet he now finds that he may not report the negative
results of research or give students his candid assessment of it. What
is
more, the simplistic labeling of Mr. Kenyon's statements as "religion" and
the strictly materialistic view as "scientific" seems entirely unwarranted,
especially given the philosophical overtones of much origins theory.
Biology texts routinely recapitulate Darwinian arguments against intelligent
design. Yet if arguments against intelligent design are philosophically
neutral and strictly scientific, why are Mr. Kenyon's arguments for
intelligent design inherently unscientific and religiously charged? In
seeking the best explanation for evidence, Mr. Kenyon has employed the same
method of reasoning as before he changed his view. His conclusions, not
his
methods, have changed. The problem is that in biological origins theory,
dominant players currently insist on a rigidly materialistic mode of
explanation - even when, as Mr. Kenyon maintains, explanation of the
evidence requires more than the limited powers of brute matter. Such
intellectual strictures reflect the very essence of polictical correctness:
the suppression of critical discourse by enforced rules of thought.
Fortunately, San Francisco State University's Academic Freedom Committee
has
come to a similar conclusion, ruling decisively this summer in Mr. Kenyon's
favor. The committee determined that, according to university guidelines,
a clear breach of academic freedom had occurred. Apparently, however, Mr.
Hafernik and Mr. Kelley disagree. Mr. Hafernik has emphatically rejected
the committee's recommendation to reinstate Mr. Kenyon, citing his own
freedom to determine scientifically appropriate curriculum. In response,
the American Association of University Professors informed the university
last month that they expect Mr. Kenyon's mistreatment to be rectified.
Meanwhile, as SFSU considers its response, a world-class scientist waits
-
yet another casualty of America's peculiar academic fundamentalism.
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Background info I/II
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:36:34
--------
EID:d794 1b909480
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd276e
Some Information Relevant to the 1992/1993 Science vs
Creationism Controversy
(Prepared by John Hafernik)
The Past
In 1980/1981, the Department of Biology had its first Creationism
Controversy. This controversy centered on the presentation by Dr.
Kenyon of creationism, then called "scientific creationism," in
Biology 337 Evolution. At that time, Dr. Kenyon challenged anyone
on the faculty to a debate on the merits of evolutionary theory
versus "scientific creationism." There was much discussion in
faculty meetings as well. Eventually the faculty voted (none
opposed, seven abstentions) not to alter the description of
Biology 337 to include creationism. The precedent set, in the
context of the 1980 discussions, was that the Department did not
support teaching creationism.
When the controversy arose anew in the fall of 1992, I acted in a
way that was in line with the views of the faculty expressed in
1980.
The Present
The present controversy began when students in Dr. Kenyon's
Biology 100 class complained to me that he included unscientific
material (creationism) in his lectures. They also complained
about other aspects of Dr. Kenyon's class.
Some points to keep in mind are as follows:
1. The Department of Biology, through its chair and biocouncil,
is not saying that there should be no place for the discussion of
Dr. Kenyon's philosophical views within the University's
curriculum. No one is attempting to restrict the expression of
his views in his personal professional endeavors. What is being
said is that students in an introductory general studies science
class should learn the ways of science. To mix science and the
views of oneUs religion together does students a disservice.
2. The University Guidelines for Academic Freedom and
Responsibility include the following statement: "Students have the
right to the instruction promised them in official University
publications." In this case instruction in science and not
religion. Students are entitled to truth in advertizing.
3. The topic of evolution, as used in the course description of
Biology 100, is not generally considered synonymous with the topic
of "origins" as used by Dr. Kenyon and the Academic Freedom
Committee. "Origins" is a more politically correct term used by
creationists for special creation.
4. "Intelligent design" as used by Dr. Kenyon is a concept
historically associated with "creationism."
5. If there is a dispute as to what constitutes science or
appropriate application of scientific standards, the dispute
should be resolved by those who are most knowledgeable, peers
within the discipline.
6. Decisions about the specifics of the class schedule for the
Biology Department must be made by the Department not by a
committee composed of faculty members from other departments, nor
by upper level administrators.
The Published Record
In their book Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of
Biological Origins (first edition 1989, second edition 1993)
Percival Davis and Dr. Kenyon present their views of evolutionary
biology, point out difficulties they have with modern theory, and
present the intelligent design paradigm as a scientific
alternative. This book provides a written account of Dr. Kenyon's
views on the topics he covers in his Biology 100 lectures on
"origins." In my discussions with Dr. Kenyon, he suggested I
read his book to learn more about his objections to modern
evolutionary theory and about the scientific support for the
"intelligent design paradigm." Although the words God, Creator,
and creationism are never used in the work, it has been
extensively criticized by biologists and philosophers of science
as: (a) presenting a religious view, special creation/intelligent
design, as science; (b) presenting an inaccurate and distorted
view of evolutionary biology, genetics, and other areas of
biology; and (c) being seriously flawed in its philosophical
underpinnings.
cont...
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Background Info II/II
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:37:28
--------
EID:cee9 1b9094a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd278d
cont...
Background Information
The AAUP: Creationism and Academic Freedom
1. At its 1981 annual meeting, the AAUP endorsed a resolution in
opposition to an Arkansas law that called for "balanced
treatment" of "creation science" and evolution in public schools.
The resolution includes the following:
a. "This legislation by requiring that a religious doctrine
(sometimes disguised) be taught as a condition for teaching of
science, serves to impair the soundness of scientific education
preparatory to college study and to violate the academic freedom
of public school teachers."
b. "Members of college and university faculty in Arkansas and
elsewhere should be able to teach and criticize freely in accord
with professional standards".
c. In the March-April issue of Academe, devoted to the issue
of creationism, Matthew Finkin writes that the resolution allows
that "The idea of special creation can be treated extensively in
courses in religion, anthropology, intellectual and social
history."
d. In the same issue of Academe John Moore clearly shows why
the claims of "scientific creationism" do not meet the test of the
professional standards of science.
Would the AAUP now take the position that it's okay to teach
creationism as science in a general studies biology class in a
public university, as long as it's taught by a tenured professor?
I don't know, but it seems they would have to assess their
previous stance.
2. In July-August 1993 issue of Academe, Cass Sunstein Professor
of Jurisprudence, University of Chicago Law School and Department
of Political Science discusses Academic Freedom issues on
University campuses. In his article, he points out "Subject
matter restrictions are part of education. Irrelevant discussion
is banned. Students cannot discuss the presidential election, or
Marx and Mill, if the subject is math. Schools are allowed to
impose subject matter restrictions that would be plainly
unacceptable if enacted by states or localities." Professor
Sunstein does not specifically address the issue of teaching a
religious belief as science, but the parallel to the point he
makes seems clear.
Legal Rulings
1. Judge William Overton in his 1982 ruling overturning the
Arkansas equal time law made the following points:
a. Creation science is not science but a religious belief. It
is not science because it does not meet the essential
characteristics of science. These characteristics of science are:
1) It is guided by natural law;
2) It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;
3) It is testable against the empirical world;
4) It conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily
the final word; and
5) It is falsifiable.
b. "The emphasis on origins as an aspect of the theory of
evolution is peculiar to creationist literature."
c. "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology...Any
student who is deprived of instruction as to the prevailing view
of scientific thought on these topics will be denied a significant
part of science education. Such a deprivation through the high
school level would undoubtedly have an impact on the quality of
education in the State's colleges and universities including the
pre-professional programs in the health sciences."
d. "The application and content of the First Amendment
principles are not determined by public opinion polls or majority
vote...No group, no matter how large or small, may use the organs
of government, of which public schools are the most conspicuous
and influential, to foist its religious beliefs on others."
Judge Overton is clear Rcreation scienceS is religion and not
science. In public institutions, students are entitled to be taught
science in science classes. Teaching religion is not appropriate
under the Constitution. Science, the leading journal of science in
the United States, published Judge OvertonUs decision in full as a
major article.
2. In 1987 the Supreme Court overturned a Louisiana Law requiring
that "creation science" be taught on an equal basis with
evolution science (sic) whenever evolution is taught in the public
schools. The court found this statute unconstitutional because
the statute had no clear secular purpose, but rather was designed
to promote one particular religious view. The decision appears,
to the layman, to be narrower in scope when compared to Judge
Overton's ruling. The lower court used Judge Overton's decision
in striking down the Louisiana law without trial. Justice Powell
in his concurring opinion makes some interesting points based on
previous court decisions. "[C]oncepts concerning God or a supreme
being of some sort are manifestly religious... These concepts do
not shed that religiosity merely because they are presented as
science or philosophy." 'Creation ex nihilo' means creation from
nothing and has been found to be an 'inherently religious
concept'. The argument that creation from nothing does not
involve a supernatural deity has no evidentiary or rational
support. To the contrary, 'creation out of nothing' is a concept
unique to Western Religions."
The case brought against the statute included an Amici Curiae
brief filed by 72 Nobel Laureates et al. refuting the claim that
"Creation Science" was science.
Justice Scalia in his dissenting opinion relied, in part, on
testimony from Dr. Kenyon that "Creation Science" is a strictly
scientific concept that could be presented without religious
reference and that it was accepted as valid by "hundreds and
hundreds of reputable scientists."
3. In 1987, an exercise physiology professor at the University of
Alabama referred to his religious beliefs in his exercise
physiology course. He also organized an optional after-class
meeting for his students and other interested persons wherein he
lectured on Evidences of God in Human Physiology." His lecture
included the notion that man was created by God and was not the by-
product of evolution. The University told him to stop expressing
his religious views in class or in class meetings associated with
his class. He sued citing infringement of his First Amendment
rights. In 1991, the United States Court of Appeals for the
Eleventh Circuit ruled, and the Supreme Court allowed to stand,
that the University of Alabama could instruct a faculty member
that he could not interject his religious beliefs into class
lectures. In that decision, the court made the point that "free
speech does not grant teachers a license to say or write in class
whatever they may feel like, and ... the propriety of regulations
or sanctions must depend on such circumstances as the age and
sophistication of the students, the closeness of the relation
between the specific technique used and some concededly valid
educational objective, and the context and manner of
presentation."
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Letter from Dr. Scott
Date: 16 Dec 93 18:37:58
--------
EID:e16c 1b9094a0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 38bd27ab
The following is a letter that was sent to the Wall St. Journal by Dr. Eugenie
Scott, Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education.
It w
as printed, in its entirety, yesterday, along with several other letters,
both
pro and con.
Editor December 6, 1993
Wall Street Journal
200 Liberty St.
New York, NY 10281
FAX: 212-416-2658
Sir,
In his op-ed piece on professor Dean Kenyon's troubles at UCSF, Stephen
C.
Meyer exhibits serious misunderstandings of science, academic freedom, and
the creation/evolution controversy. First, either life originated naturally
or supernaturally. Science is limited to only natural explanations. Yes,
theoreticians in this area rely on materialist explanations: they are doing
science. Kenyon's teaching of "intelligent design" is indeed religion,
not
science. Further, if today we don't know all the steps involved in the
origin of life, this doesn't mean we have to leap to a supernatural
explanation, or to conclude that evolution didn't occur, which is Kenyon's
message and why he is opposed by his chairman and other scientists.
Second, academic freedom also requires academic responsibility. The first
responsibility is to students, who should get what they sign up for. In
a
biology class, students should be taught state of the art biology, not
theology. Regardless of its lukewarm support in the general public,
evolution is the foundation principle of biology and teaching that it didn't
occur is equivalent to teaching flat-earth geography. It is not a
violation of Kenyon's academic freedom to ask him to teach standard
biology. In fact, he teaches his non-standard biology in upper division
classes and in graduate seminars. It is only in a freshman course, where
students are least prepared to understand why Kenyon's ideas are wrong,
that
he is restricted. Doesn't sound too onerous to me.
What Kenyon is teaching, by his own admission and the testimony of students
in the class, is a view of evolutionary theory exemplified in his book,
Of
Pandas and People, which presents "intelligent design theory," a mutation,
so to speak, of scientific creationism which reflects the same
religiously-inspired caricature of evolutionary theory and bad biology as
its ancestor. Kenyon claims in Pandas that "two completely hybrid (sic)
individuals could produce offspring exhibiting the complete range of
possible skin colors," a statement breathtakingly ignorant of genetics,
but
"explaining" how the great range of human skin colors could arise from Noah
and his family. Students deserve better.
Sincerely yours,
Eugenie C. Scott, Ph.D.
Executive Director, NCSE
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Hollandaise Sauce
Date: 20 Dec 93 13:32:01
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e26
REPLY: 1:103/241@FIDONET.ORG af8ff355
PID: FM 2.02
dp> So, any chance of your return from exile soon?
It doesn't look good.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Bruce Baugh
Sub: Your daily chuckle
Date: 20 Dec 93 12:19:31
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e27
REPLY: 1:105/95 2d10a941
PID: FM 2.02
bb> The one _I_ saw Ralph make is that the King James Bible
bb> is a perfect, inerrant translation...
bb> Silly enough, but not _that_ silly.
His untestable and, well, silly claims gets even more silly. He claimed
that
everyone would turn into a 33 and a half year old white male "after they're
de
ad." Which includes females. The 'reason' for this was that he
was to
ld that the Jesus mythos was white, middle class American. It
is in
keeping with some KKK video tapes I've seen.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Background Info II/II
Date: 20 Dec 93 13:28:16
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet b10c2e28
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 38bd278d
PID: FM 2.02
db> d. In the same issue of Academe John Moore clearly shows why
db> the claims of "scientific creationism" do not meet the test of the
db> professional standards of science.
I could well imagine the horror of being released from an educational facility
then to make application at a place of employment for a geology posistion
onl
y to learn that the education which had been imparted had actually been
religi
ous mythology -- I'm thinking diploma mills like the ICR.
The demands that opposistion to evolutionary theories mustbe permitted is
entirely acceptable to science, of course, yet the suggestion that speciation
doesn't take place (or never did) or that there _must_ be intelligent design
reguardless of the rather telling lack of evidence for this intelligence
shoul
d
be enough, I would think, to put an end to such nonsense.
One wonders how much money has been spent fighting the teaching of religious
m
ythologies as fact in the public school room. And one must also wonder
how mu
ch money has been spent allowing acedemics to voice actual concern with
theori
es. In any event, I should read "Pandas."
db> 3) It is testable against the empirical world;
db> 5) It is falsifiable.
That should have been the end of it.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Bruce Baugh
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Tilting at creationist
Date: 18 Dec 93 09:46:00
--------
EID:d122 1b924dc0
MSGID: 1:105/95.0 d130c8f4
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet af12fe0b
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to David Bloomberg:
FR> I've been reviewing Navaho creation myths. They believe that
FR> The People lived on three other planets prior to coming here
FR> in the form of First Man and First Woman (in that order.)
FR> They brought with them all the animals and plants that were
FR> on the third planet and came to the "center" of the Earth.
Lots of American aboriginal peoples have the same kind of story. The Osage
say
that their ancestors came from the northern stars, and that though they
_look
_ like other people, they're really very different. (A few years back I
was do
ing a research project on St. Louis in the 1810s, and read a bunch of folklore
as part of that.) There were editor's notes to the effect that _most_ tribes
have a similar sense of having come from somewhere else.
Sometimes I'm tempted to post that in alt.alien.visitors...
--- timEd-B9
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From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 17 Dec 93 10:32:00
--------
EID:6d9e 1b915400
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d11d0f0
David,
I've heard news reports on a 22 year old pregnant woman in Illinois. The
oxygen supply to the fetus is restricted and doctors say the fetus will
be
born dead or severely brain-damaged if the woman doesn't have a C-section
soon (she's 37 weeks pregnant, if I recall). The woman is a born again
Pentecostal fundamentalist and refuses the operation, preferring instead
to wait for a miracle from God to allow her baby to be born normally and
healthy. The state has taken her to court to force her to have the
operation, but the courts have refused.
My question to you is: Do you have any more details on this case?
___Anson
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From: Anson Kennedy
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Re: News from james rand
Date: 16 Dec 93 14:30:00
--------
EID:e803 1b9073c0
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d10b738
David Bloomberg wrote the following to Anson Kennedy about Re: News from
james rand on 12-13-93:
DB>In a msg to Rick Moen @ 916/1008 on , Anson
DB>Kennedy of 1:133/208 writes:
DB>
DB> AK> The CSICOP list he's referring to is the one Barry Karr recently
DB> AK> up. Barry has only sent out a few messages. It certainly doesn't
DB>
DB>Can you send me a copy of the mailing list? When Barry
DB>originally sent it out, my address was still wrong, and he
DB>hasn't re-sent it.
DB>
I noticed in the latest list he left off the "p0" -- hmmm. :-)
Anyway, I'll forward the message he sent out this week to you. Most of the
stuff in it you've probably seen (or heard about) before.
--- Anson
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