God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Sweet Sue
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: The end?
Date: 12 Jul 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:ff3b 1cec8a00
JF>Well, okay... lesse... bear with me, it's an old dictionary and the
JF>pages are starting to stick togeter. Ah! Here it is:
JF>"A visible mass of particles of water or ice in the form of fog, mist
or
JF>haze suspended usually at a considerable height in the air."
JF>Well, shoot... I knew *THAT*.
Clouds.
SLMR 2.1a It didn't rain today. Am I still in Washington?
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From: Sweet Sue
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Sweet sue
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:20:00
--------
EID:3016 1ceb9280
DP> > DP>After reading your posts to Sweet Sue, i'm moved to ask when the
DP> > DP>wedding will be.
DP> > Well, I _had_ to be nice to _somebody_. I have a quota to meet,
DP> > after
DP> > all. ;-> Besides, I don't know if our chakras are
DP> > compatible... or
DP> > something.
DP> > Seriously, I think I find Sue's posts refreshing because (1) she
DP> > writes
DP> > well, (2) _very_ forthrightly and clearly, and (3) often with
DP> > considerable style. I'd far rather converse with someone like
DP> > that with
DP> > whom I frequently disagree, instead of with some muddled,
DP> > wishy-washy, colourless author whose opinions I share.
DP> > However, I've already been engaged to one Iris, and one's
DP> > plenty. ;->
DP>But couldn't you have Sweet Sue too, say in another reality?
Only if I'd had nothing to say about it! ;-)
SLMR 2.1a I'm young in heart--slightly older in other places.
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From: Sweet Sue
To: Ken Stuckas
Sub: Testing another claim
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:35:00
--------
EID:3beb 1ceb9460
KS>-=>While eating a book entitled "Testing another claim",
KS> Sweet Sue mumbled:
KS> SS> And why I got nauseated is at the thought that there really are
people
KS> SS> that are so suggestible that they could actually be programmed to
yawn
KS> SS> by such a simple statement.
KS> Well, Sue, you might have noticed that effect at
KS> some time in the past if you had ever someone
KS> in your life to stay up late with. 8*O
Fortunately, there are times and people I stay up late with. Making a
written statement about yawning and watching to see if yawns are
evoked seems to me quite a different matter than witnessing others
yawning, and at a late hour.
<> Only I can't, at the moment, figure out why or
how they're different! :-)
SLMR 2.1a Massage...it's nice to be kneaded.
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From: Sweet Sue
To: John Moore
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 13 Jul 94 22:56:00
--------
EID:94ea 1cedb700
JM> SS> On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unavoidab
JM> SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they < SS> chose to be hurt.
Please note the words "they <>..." We are all co-creators.
Unless, of course, one's actions would affect only oneself.
JM>I do not care for the rude and destructive style of argument dubbed
JM>FLAMEing, but I'm having trouble containing myself enough to respond
in a
JM>polite manner to this. Transferring to the recipient of some hurt the
JM>responsiblity for bringing it on themselves, even though you concede
to
JM>having been the agent, absolving yourself for any and all responsibility
JM>for being a party to that hurt, is a selfish and disgraceful perversion
of
JM>the process of reasoning!
I did not say or intend to imply I was absolved of any responsibility.
As to 'selfish,' if the word is taken to mean "being about the business
of taking care of Self," yes, it is.
JM> I have no desire to trample on anybody's philosophy or religion or
JM>"personal vision" that at least embodies some sort of moral sense, but
this
JM>attitude completely lacks such a notion. It is far wierder and beyond
my
JM>comprehension than the rationalizations put forth by philosophies candidly
JM>based on hatred like the Nazis, the Klan or any other Phobes.
JM> Sue, I don't want you to go into convulsions of guilt over my
JM>distress, but please give some serious thought to the idea that your
JM>responsibility as a member of the human race extends beyond the boundaries
JM>of your own interests.
I think I understand the source of your distress, as I very much
understand how weird a statement like "create your own reality" can
sound when removed from the context of a ideology. I have been
there. On first encountering this concept, I reacted in much the same
way as you have, mainly, because that's the way most people seem to
already live their lives...placing blame everywhere and anywhere but
squarely on their own shoulders.
It's taken many years of emotionalizing, questioning, observing and
<> the words to pull into a practical framework. It is said
"experience is the best teacher." I would add, it is the <>
teacher, for until something is experienced, it cannot take on
definition, color and dimensions that remove it from the realm of mere
philosophy.
IMO, each of us daily bears witness to the fruits of 'creating one's own
reality,' whether those fruits are bitter or sweet. Of course, in the
wrong hands, almost any concept can be perverted beyond recognition.
Suffice to say "transferring"--a word you used above--is the key word
to what I am calling your misperception. As engage in 'creating my
own reality,' there is no place for "transferrence" of responsibility.
However, I am responsible for what you do, feel, think and/or
say resulting from my actions. How another reacts is their own
responsibility--solely. The only one to whom I have responsibility is
to me.
"Responsibility" is another key word interpreted variously by everyone
I've ever met. IMNSHO, if each of us were to busy ourselves taking
responsibility for our own garbage and cleaning up our own houses, none
of these explanations would be necessary.
Assuredly, I've not gone into paroxyms of guilt over your distress--but
I'm not clear at all what, specifically, distresses you about it. The
analogizing of Nazism, Klanism and/or other phobics to the "weirdness"
of creating one's own reality is lost on me. Is that to say that, to
some extent, you can understand hatred-based atrocities, but you can
understand one who takes responsibility for their own
lives/actions?
Wish I had one really punched-up sentence to clear up any confusion for
you--unfortunately, it just ain't so and would take volumes. For any
example I could come up with seems, at first, contradictory. It is only
in the framework of a total ideology that it makes sense--at least, to
me.
Best wishes,
Iris
SLMR 2.1a Know thyself!
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From: Sweet Sue
To: David Macdonald
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 13 Jul 94 23:12:00
--------
EID:4269 1cedb980
DM> I would suggest that "all" New Agers are out to "live it up" at
others
DM>expenses, but rather that some certainly are and that the notion that
one
DM>creates one's own reality is conducive to the exploitation of others.
The
DM>parallels in history are clear; consider the caste system of India, which
DM>held that if one were of lower cast, it was due to transgression in a
past
DM>life. One was, thus, justified in treating the lower casts like dirt
since
DM>they were but sinners suffering appropriately for their sins. Similarly,
t
h
DM>New Age notion allows the New Ager to do anything and claim that any
appare
n
DM>harm is not his or her doing, but rather the reality constructed by the
DM>apparent victim. It is the ultimate form of blaming the victim. No
one is
DM>criminal; the victim has just him or herself to blame. That is dangerous
a
n
DM>potentially very, very harmful to many people.
To the extent that some so-called New Agers take this notion and apply
it in ways destructive to others, aggrandizing to self, I agree.
Hinduism is not new thought, although some portions of Hinduism may be
included in new thought.
How I think, reduced to a this-level reality (often called the "real
world"), also incorporates an interpretation that, in a society with
laws, when one breaks those laws, one must bear the consequences
(taking responsibility). If caught and convicted, one then bears the
label "criminal."
To put this in a this-reality perspective--we all are co-creators. That
the 'victim' may have chosen on some level to experience whatever
unpleasantness occurred <> the cooperation of another, in this
case, the 'criminal.'
I think it would be more appropriate that your wariness be pointed in
directions other than towards so-called New Agers, most of whom are
benign. Fortunately, there are relatively few who pervert the concepts
in such an exaggerated fashion as you depict.
SLMR 2.1a Believing in yourself is the beginning of wisdom.
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From: Lewis Marvich
To: All
Sub: Re: I_UFO and their rules
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:03:37
--------
EID:36a4 1ceba060
-=> Quoting Jackson Harding to All <=-
JH> If they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be
JH> it, but we don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
Absolutely. If there are problems they should be handled at what
ever level is appropriate; SYSOP, FIDO, etc.
Participants of both echoes tend to have directly opposing
viewpoints and "Preaching to the heathen", as it were, will
accomplish nothing.
... Have tree, will climb - just as all my ancestors did.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Lewis Marvich
To: ALL
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:05:25
--------
EID:dac2 1ceba0a0
What does being "right" or "wrong" have to do with being a skeptic?
As I understand skepticism, one very necessary thing is not to
prejudge a new idea or concept. You are supposed to gather proof either
for or against, until a consensus of trained and educated people agree
that an idea is valid or invalid. Is this not so?
At one time the idea that "invisible bugs" could make a healthy person
ill or kill them was scoffed at and ridiculed. The supporters of the
"Germ Theory" were able to gather the proof they needed for their idea
to gain acceptance.
Angels, demons, extra-terrestrials, U.F.O. abductions or succubi; I do not
reject these ideas _or_ support them without repeatable proof.
Saying that most who do support fringe science are stupid, ignorant and
crazy is again prejudging. Just as someone who claims that anyone who
doesn't believe in their U.F.O.s are dupes of the government, or lying
participants in the "conspiracy", is guilty of the same.
A willingness to change a previously held idea or theory is just as much
a part of being a skeptic as trying to de-bunk false ideas.
That is all I wanted to ask/say. I look forward to responses.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Mia Cline
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: ghosts
Date: 09 Jul 94 14:11:14
--------
EID:3db6 1ce97160
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb002
REPLY: 3:800/857 2e1499ed
JH> OK, who is Dr Maher, what are his qualifications,
JH> where is he working at the moment and what are the
JH> highlights of his academic career to date?
She has done her research in Chicago as i stated before. Her specialties
are
in Parapsychology which includes ghosts.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: Mia Cline
To: Laurie Hunter
Sub: ghosts
Date: 09 Jul 94 14:14:12
--------
EID:ca93 1ce971c0
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb0b4
REPLY: 1:2401/123 53b29424
LH> are ghosts who are out there just trying to scare
LH> people but they are pretty harmless.
i agree.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: John Jeanneault
To: ALL
Sub: RAPE OF THE PLANET
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:57:15
--------
EID:a901 1cebaf20
MSGID: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 41d75e4f
PLANET PLUNDERING AS OLD AS UR, ARCHEOLOGISTS SAY
By Thomas Maugh II Toronto Star July 2, 1994
"Theory that people in pre-industrial ages lived in harmony with environment
is eroded by the facts."
LOS ANGELES - When Dutch explores landed on Easter Island in 1722,
there was not a single tree.
Most ecologists assumed the isolated Pacific island, now known as
Rapa Nui, had always been barren. Recent studies, however, reveal that
it once was covered with lush forests that were slashed and burned
when humans moved there about A.D. 500.
The rape of Rapa Nui, archeologists are now discovering, is not
unique. Whereas environmentalists and historians once believed that
early humans lived in harmony with their environment, growing evidence
reveals that people have plundered the Earth wherever and whenever
they have lived.
From the first civilizations along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers,
in what is now Iraq, to the Mayan empire of Central America, experts
are beginning to agree, people have pillaged natural resources,
denuded forests and sterilized fields with unwanted salt.
Environmental devastation, it would seem, has been an almost
inevitable companion of civilization.
And today, as society faces environmental problems ranging from
deforestation and loss of biodiversity to salinization of farmland,
many archeologists believe society can profit by studying where these
civilizations went wrong. "We can look to the past to see the future,"
says Charles Redman of Arizona State University.
The hallmark focus of this generation is a redefining of
archeology" from a rather abstract pursuit to one that has direct
impact on day to day concerns Redman says.
"We have to make the point that archeology is more than just an
indulgence of a rich society," adds Don Rice of Southern Illinois
University. "We really do have something to say to future
generations."
Increasingly, archeologists are concluding that human folly had more
to do with the collapses of many civilizations than climate changes
caused by global warming or cooling.
One impetus for the new approach is the deforestation of Central and
South America and the accompanying loss of biodiversity, a broad and
complex abundance of species in such wilderness areas. Ecologists
argue that biodiversity must be maintained because it provides a
potential source of drugs, foods and other products that will be
invaluable to future generations.
Another important issue facing all nations is the degradation of
soil quality, which ultimately threatens a society's ability to feed
itself.
Emerging recognition of the unintentional destructivness of past
civilizations is blasting apart "the escapist idea of the primordial
paradise," that pre-industrial societies were composed of great
environmentalists who lived in harmony with their surroundings. Redman
says, "We're no different than they were thousands of years ago. What
we need is to learn to cope with our environment, not to purify
ourselves."
One key to destroying these myths is the relatively new science of
paleolimnology, the study of lake sediment. As silt from rivers and
streams collects in lake bottoms it carries pollen, ashes, eroded soil
and other characteristic markers that provide a time-ordered history
of a region.
By studying pollen in sediment dating from a particualr period, for
example, researchers can tell what types of vegetation grew naturally
and what was raised by farmers. The disappearance of tree pollen is a
strong indicator of deforestation. another is the supplanting of wood
ash by ash from animal dung, which is commonly burned when wood is
unavailable.
These kinds of studies "have revolutionized our understanding of the
past," says Patrick Kirch of the university of California at Berkeley.
Within 700 years, he says, the population of Rapa Nui had grown to
10,000 and the landscape was "virtually treeless." Traditional
archeological techniques, including fossil excavation showed that many
animals had been killed off, as "a direct result of human actions,"
Kirch says.
One of the chief lessons to be learned from early societies, Redman
says, is that farmland deteriorated when agriculture was centrally
controlled by the government, as is the case today in Russia, China
and some developing countries, rather than by local farmers who knew
how to maintain soil quality.
Soil salinization caused by extensive irrigation also played a major
role in the downfall of several societies, begining with Mesopotamia in
the Middle East. Salinization is caused by the accumulation of mineral
salts when irrigation water evaporates. As the concentration of the
toxic salts increases, farming becomes more difficult.
By 2000 B.C., the Ur III dynasty was flourishing in the southern
half of Mesopotamia, which comprised cities with tens of thousands of
inhabitants.
As the soil became more saline, recent sediment studies have shown,
agriculture shifted from wheat to the more salt tolerant barley. The
society became dependent on imported grains before collapsing under
the burden of overpopulation. One of the last written records from Ur,
Redman says, is a plaintive message from the king to one of his
functionaries in the hinterlands; "Where is my shipment of grain?"
Salinization also spelled the doom of the Hohokam, who lived in
central Arizona, in the area centered on presentday Phoenix, from the
time of Christ until about 1400. Conventional studies have recently
shown that the Hohokam constructed elaborate irrigation canal systems
according to Glen Rice of Arizona State University. Their civilization
collapsed, like that in Mesopotamia, when the soil became too salty to
support agriculture, a condition that persists today.
"This sounds painfully like what is going on today in California
and many other farming regions around the world," Don Rice says.
Salinization can be countered by reducing irrigation and by growing
crops that require less water. Such changes are not being made, he
says because short term profits still outweigh long term environmental
consequences.
Perhaps the greatest romance has surrounded the Central American
societies of the Aztecs, Teotihuacan and Maya, complex societies that
created their own written language, built massive temples and
architecturally sophisticated cities, perfected intensive agriculture
and developed astronomy. They flourished for more than a millenium
until, one by one, they mysteriously collapsed, with the Maya being
the last to fall, around A.D.900.
The demise of the Maya, who once dominated large regions of what are
now Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador, has been particularly
intriguing.
A variety of recent evidence suggests that internal warfare played a
major role in the collapse, but many researchers believe that
environmental problems were at the root of that warfare.
Recent studies by Don Rice have shown that the Maya had destroyed
more than 80 percent of the region's forests by the time of their
demise in the 1600's. Loss of forest, in turn, speeded erosion,
slashing farming productivity and reducing the ability of individual
city-states to be self-sufficient. By the time the Spanish invaded,
the Maya had lost 75 percent of their population.
The remaining people were slaughtered by the Spanish or succumbed to
disease inadvertently introduced by the invaders. Ironically, the
Spanish conquest proved to be a remarkable stimulus to the
environment.
Freed from the burdens of overpopulation, vegetation exploded,
producing rain forests that had not existed during the time of the
Maya.
But the picure painted by archeologists is not entirely gloomy. "The
upside is that many societies, like the Maya, were around for a very
long time," Redman says. "Some did strikingly well for hundreds of
years,. We need to learn from them."
Los Angeles Times.
--- April V0.994PBeta
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Mack
Date: 10 Jul 94 23:30:00
--------
EID:caf2 1ceabbc0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 439d92cc
The following is an article from the June '94 issue (Vol. 2, #6) of The
REALL
News. It may be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper
c
redit is given. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any
public
ation that reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may
also
be cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences.
This article represents the opinions of its author, and does not necessarily
represent the opinions of REALL or its officers.
=============================================================================
REALLity Check
by David Bloomberg
<...>
FMS Lawsuit
One of the biggest pieces of news to hit this past month
was the result of a false memory syndrome-related lawsuit.
This suit involved, for the first time, the person accused
of sexual abuse (Gary Ramona) suing the therapists of the
person making the charges (his daughter, Holly).
Briefly: Holly sought help from a therapist for bulimia.
The therapist wrongly told her that 80% of eating disorders
are caused by sexual abuse. Thus started a whole series of
events leading to the use of sodium amytal (wrongly called a
"truth serum") to put Holly into a "hypnotic" state, in
which she accused her father of sexual abuse. Her mother
believed her and divorced Gary, and, when word got out, he
also lost his high-paying job.
So Gary sued the therapists for destroying his life. He
won, though he did not get even close to the sum of money he
had requested. The jury ruled that the therapists should
have been more skeptical and challenged Holly's beliefs
rather than simply accepting her "recovered" memories as
real. The foreman also said they found it hard to believe
that the abuse could happen over 11 years, and have all of
it repressed (including one supposed episode involving the
family dog).
This case received a great deal of media attention.
_Dateline NBC_ featured a segment on it in their May 17
show. Reporters interviewed several of the main players and
managed to catch them in a variety of mistakes (the "80%"
figure is one of them). The therapists said it was a setback
for the profession, but others, including myself, think it
is a BOON for the profession, which will hopefully make them
more careful.
One of those others is the (Springfield, Illinois)
_State Journal-Register_. Its May 19 editorial pointed out
that this case should serve as a warning to those therapists
using unscientific methods. One paragraph of that editorial,
in particular, deserves repeating here: "Ours is a nation
prone to pop psychology and pseudoscience. Self-help books
aimed at 'survivors' of long-forgotten child sexual abuse
abound. And far too many practitioners of memory therapy
have no more background in the subject than what they've
gleaned at weekend seminars."
On the Other Hand...
Then there's the _Illinois Times_. On May 12, it
featured an article complaining about the Illinois
legislature's recent attempt to replace the statute of
limitations for charges of childhood sexual abuse (see
"REALLity Check," Vol. 2, #4). The author apparently only
talked to people on one side of the issue--those who oppose
the reimposition.
As we see all too often, some claims are made which are
nowhere near the truth. In particular, Polly Poskin, the
director of the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault,
claimed that "a number of high-profile incidents [have]
fueled a backlash against sensitivity to the seriousness of
sexual abuse."
I wrote a letter, published the next week, which pointed
out that I know of _nobody_ who doubts the seriousness of
sexual abuse, or is insensitive to it. However, I know of
many psychologists who doubt the methods used to "recover"
these supposed memories. I also reminded the author that
there are a number of people he could have talked to about
the many sides of this issue, and sent him, specifically, a
packet of information (including issues of _The REALL News_)
about FMS. Alas, I haven't heard back from him yet.
Mack Attack
Harvard psychiatrist John Mack has been making the
rounds for his new book, _Abduction_. There have been
stories about him in many major newspapers, magazines, etc.
The vast majority of them have looked critically at his
methodologies and his abandonment of the scientific method.
Then there's the _Chicago Tribune_...
In its Tempo section (5/24), the Trib ran a "he said -
she said" story without bothering to actually investigate
any of it. In other words, they treated this story much like
they treat their stories on alternative medicine. For a
paper that is capable of good investigative work when it
comes to other subjects, I can't understand why they
routinely ignore that kind of journalism when it comes to
fringe science.
One of the news organizations that did take a closer
look was _Dateline NBC_ (5/24). While I don't think it did
as good a job as they have done with alternative medicine
stories and the story on the FMS suit mentioned above, the
program at least did better than the _Tribune_.
As usual, Mack stated that he simply can't find any
other way to account for the stories, other than that they
really happened. Psychologist Robert Baker can, and he
explained several possibilities. He also mentioned that Mack
only works with patients who are already convinced they've
had alien encounters, and Mack never challenges that.
Anybody remember, a few paragraphs ago, why the jury ruled
against the Ramona therapists? Yup, that's right, because
they didn't challenge her supposed memories.
_Dateline_ also showed a hypnosis session with Mack. The
patient was concerned about 40 minutes of "missing time"
which occurred at 4 in the morning while he was on a couch
in a hospital waiting room. Mack never even suggested the
possibility that just _maybe_ he fell asleep! In addition,
there is some pretty obvious lapse in technique when Mack
says things like, "You mean [these experiences] add to
ourselves? Is that what you're saying?" If that isn't a
leading question, I don't know what is.
As I said, they could have done a better job, for
example, by connecting its story of a week earlier, about
the FMS lawsuit, with this story. The methods are extremely
similar, as skeptics have been pointing out for quite a while.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Don Allen
Sub: Attitude
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:48:15
--------
EID:7630 1cebae00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43a9cf85
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f0bd275
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Don Allen of 1:3623/18@fidonet.
org writes:
> DP> stuff. I think i've figured out these people's motto:
> DP> "Extrordinary claims require extrordinary credulity."
> Tagline material STOLEN for use in I_UFO.
DA> I've seen that you've already put it to good use. Glendar the Wonder
DA> Dawg will probably whine and accuse you of mucking up "the atmosphere".
So far, nope. But then, her Assistant Mod has that origin line which is
a lot
worse than mine...
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From: John Moore
To: James Meyer
Sub: Combined effort
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:39:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5b
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089aa
Just out of a generally self destructive impulse I can't let this paper
folding nonsense I started die without trying to get in one last word,
even though your figures below are beyond dispute. . .
. . ." It is impossible to
fold any sheet of paper, no matter how thin or how large, IN HALF,
successively, more than seven times."
JM> OK, John. Let's do a little reality check on your claim.
JM> The first fold will result a piece of (folded) paper of half
JM> the original area with a thickness of twice the original
JM> thickness. If we tabulate that for subsequent folds, we get
JM> something like this:
JM> FOLD# AREA THICKNESS
JM> 1 .5 2
JM> 2 .25 4
JM> 3 .125 8
JM> 4 .0625 16
JM> 5 .03125 32
JM> 6 .015625 64
JM> 7 .0078125 128
JM> 8 .00390625 256
JM> If we start out with a square piece of paper that measures
JM> fifty feet on a side and five thousandths of an inch thick,
JM> and fold it eight times, we wind up with a folded piece of
JM> paper that's a little over three feet on a side and only a
JM> little over an inch and a quarter thick.
This started out as a piece of non-sequiter flippancy appended to someone's
remark about unfolding reality. It is an odd bit picked up years ago
in an old Ripley's cartoon, and makes a good bar stunt. It has worked
unfailingly with normally acquired sheets of paper, but the original
statement did explicitly claim that it applied to any sheet of paper no
matter how large or thin. Naturally I've never tried a piece fifty feet
on
a side, but I've always assumed that the trick had to do with the idea that
paper folds
pile up much thicker than just the adding up of thicknesses, due I guess
to
bending fibers along the fold not collapsing neatly into uniform layers.
The stunt, then, is that reality does not measure up to the neat
calculations. It might even be a Chaos function.
Unless I can get a grant from the Feds I'm not gonna go out and get
the fifty foot square sheet to try it, though, and I retreat from the field
thoroughly trampled.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: John Moore
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:52:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5c
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089ab
Having to do with a prior response I made to an exchange between Sweet Sue
and Jeff Freeman which contained the bits below...
SS> ...On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unav
SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they <
SS> chose to be hurt.
JF>So does that make it okay? Or just a little okay? Sorry, all
JF>seems to be a wee bit fuzzy to me.
JM> I do not care for the rude and destructive style of argument dubbe
JM> FLAMEing, but I'm having trouble containing myself enough to respo
JM> in a polite manner to this.
JF>I think you wanted to send that to SS...
JM>... Sue, I don't want you to go into convulsions of guilt over my
JM> distress, but please give some serious thought to the idea that yo
JM> responsibility as a member of the human race extends beyond the
JM> boundaries of your own interests.
JF>Oh! You *were* talking to Sue. [g]
I am new enough to this kind of chat to claim some innocent ignorance of
proper procedure. I pick this up from a local echo, and my practice as
above has just been to append my comment to the end of the last message,
which my message reader sends back addressed to the last sender.
My assumption has been that this just appears as a running part of the
thread, with an alert to that last sender. If this is wrong, and I should
be changing the address to "ALL", I apologize, and would appreciate anyone
setting me straight on proper protocol.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: John Moore
To: Joe Slater
Sub: ghosts
Date: 10 Jul 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5d
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089ac
Just adding a note to an exchange between Joe Slater and Mia Cline. . .
JS>> Is this a photo with a blurry, slightly out of
JS>> focus picture superimposed on it? If so, I know how
JS>> to reproduce that quite easily.
MC> no it is very in focus...
JS>Oh, well, then. I had thought you'd seen the photograph yourself. While
JS>photograph is easy to doctor, by the time it's been processed for repro
JS>in a book there have been so many opportunities for tampering that it
h
JS>credibility whatsoever.
By the time a photo has been reproduced, especially in a cheap
mass produced paperback, it has been through so many layers of halftoning,
re-photographing or plate etching, and high speed printing that it doesn't
have to have been tampered with deliberately to be a very poor replica of
the original, suffering from many distortions of tone, contrast and
eradication of detail. People have been taking these pictures degraded
by
multi generations of processing as evidence for ghosts, psychic
apparitions and UFOs for many decades, rarely questioning whether the
printed picture is a clear representation of the original.
As a commmercial artist I specialize in producing drawings and
paintings for print reproduction, and even though I can apply much
experience to tailoring the art to survive the reproduction process, I am
often less than satisfied with the results.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: Gary Steinweg
To: All
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 11 Jul 94 11:41:24
--------
EID:3698 1ceb5d20
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e219254
Taken from the Internet:
FREE WILLY
(original author unknown)
How to remove a dead whale, or the Farside comes to Oregon.
I am absolutely not making this incident up; in fact I have it
all on videotape. The tape is from a local TV news show in
Oregon, which sent a reporter out to cover the removal of a 45-
foot, eight-ton dead whale that washed up on the beach. The
responsibility for getting rid of the carcass p was placed on the
Oregon State Highway Division, apparently on the theory that
highways and whales are very similar in the sense of being large
objects.
So anyway, the highway engineers hit upon the plan--remember, I
am not making this up--of blowing up the whale with dynamite. The
thinking is that the whale would be blown into small pieces,
which would be eaten by seagulls, and that would be that. A
textbook whale removal.
So they moved the spectators back up the beach, put a half-ton of
dynamite next to the whale and set it off. I am probably not
guilty of understatement when I say that what follows, on the
videotape, is the most wonderful event in the history of the
universe. First you see the whale carcass disappear in a huge
blast of smoke and flame. Then you hear the happy spectators
shouting "Yayy!" and "Whee!" Then, suddenly, the crowd's tone
changes. You hear a new sound like "splud." You hear a woman's
voice shouting "Here come pieces of...MY GOD!" Something smears
the camera lens.
Later, the reporter explains: "The humor of the entire situation
suddenly gave way to a run for survival as huge chunks of whale
blubber fell everywhere." One piece caved in the roof of a car
parked more than a quarter of a mile away.
Remaining on the beach were several rotting whale sectors the
size of condominium units. There was no sign of the seagulls who
had no doubt permanently relocated to Brazil.
This is a very sobering videotape. Here at the institute we
watch it often, especially at parties. But this is no time for
gaiety. This is a time to get hold of the folks at the Oregon
State Highway Division and ask them, when they get done cleaning
up the beaches, to give us an estimate on the US Capitol.
___
X SLMR 2.1a X
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: David Macdonald
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:18:54
--------
EID:a6c9 1ceb9240
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bc599
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Skeptical of skeptics
S.D.,
you remarks about skeptics are puerile and silly. I am aware that I
offer no grounds for this judgement. I do that on purpose, to mimic the
character of your post.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Marc Tooley
To: Tom Melville
Sub: Re: Nazi mysticism
Date: 10 Jul 94 23:49:22
--------
EID:f9ec 1ceabe20
MSGID: 1:353/400 2e20c142
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
EID: d5f5 ceba2674
TID: xMail 1.00 noreg
-=> Quoting Tom Melville to Rick Moen <=-
TM> Doesn't the swastika also mean "Good luck and Fortune?"
And a great many other things, including "Hospital," "The
Universe," and many, many more. Ancient aboriginal tribes
used a similar-looking symbol which meant "food."
(Don't ask me why.. I see no resemblance or sense to this.)
This doesn't change what the swastika means to most of the
world and/or survivors of World War II. This is the impact
of the symbol. This is why this is held with such contempt
and anger. And this is why it is such a "curse."
Historical meaning is nothing -- it is what it means NOW
which is important.
Marc
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- xMail 1.00
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From: Kerry Penny
To: Pete Porro
Sub: Re: GHOSTS
Date: 10 Jul 94 12:15:54
--------
EID:a3b6 1cea61e0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 1126AAFA
PID: TransAmiga 1.12/g1 7010
>> I've started a monster. :)
PP> Yes You Have! I was wondering if anyone was willing to
PP> debunk my claims? Unfortunatly I left too much of GIPF
PP> in it, and most just said "Oh that nut Porro again.
PP> Ignore him and he'll go away."
Heh.
I wonder if you could find a way to incorporate the GIPF into a UFO setti
ng? I think it would fit pretty well in the I_UFO echo. ;)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.12g1
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From: Fred Garvin
To: Don Allen
Sub: Elvis on Mars!
Date: 12 Jul 94 21:38:44
--------
EID:8efc 1cecacc0
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 2e2345a4
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f10c5ca
DA> Another note, I now know that the Pyramids here
DA> were built by those who also
DA> built them on Mars, as well as the Face too, the
Wrong! It is a proven FACT that the University of Tennessee at Memphis has
dis
covered that the "FACE" on Mars was erected in 1970, when Elvis entered
his fa
mous "Vegas Period". He was thinking of the future, when vast casinos would
be
built on the Martian surface. In fact, he had entered into a secret agreement
with Howard Hughes to build the first Mars Hilton Hotel & Casino, with the
FA
CE as a huge attraction, a la the Vegas Strip. But the Mafia had other plans.
Do you think it's just a coincidence that Elvis died JUST A YEAR after Howard
Hughes? I don't think so! And a close examination of the facts will back
this
up. They did it to Hoffa, to JFK, to Big E, and to Hughes! It's all a vast
con
spiracy I'm tellin' ya!
--- Maximus 2.00
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From: John Prewett
To: Terry Smith
Sub: Debating Fundos
Date: 11 Jul 94 15:15:11
--------
EID:0230 1ceb79e0
MSGID: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA47127F
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
TS> On <25 Jun 1994 > John Prewett wrote to Terry Smith:
TS> Think Time magazine is a 'scientific' publication? :-) Terry Smith
JP> No, however they do from time to time remark upon and quote bonafide
JP> scientist.
TS> That is not quite the same as peer reviewed examples of replicable
TS> hypothesis formation and testing now, is it?
The article in question merely presented some facts re: DNA
that the consensus of science has accepted for a couple of decades.
We aren't (at least at this point) debating scientifically
revealed fact. Rather, the issue (as far as I'm concerned)
is what those facts mean or don't mean re: the likelyhood
of a Creatorless origin of life.
JP> Scientist who have revealed intricacy and organization which provides
JP> evidence the atheist POV is a delusion
TS> Scientists who prove negatives based on their subjective impression
TS> of the philosophical viewpoints of assumed 'enemies'. Tell me more.
Individuals who desire to know "truth", whether members of
the "scientific", legal, historical, or theological camps,
IMHO, have no reason to view each other as "enemies".
JP> which arose from the horse and buggy era of "science".
TS> Science _is_ 'atheistic - without GOD, as teleological explanations
TS> are not part of science. The need to invoke 'God' as a mechanism is
a
TS> scientific way of saying 'and a miracle occured.' This has nothing at
TS> all to do with the practitioners personal belief. If you believe one
TS> can quantify 'Godness', or propose controls to discount the presence
TS> of God in an experiment, I'd be interested in hearing your proposal.
IMHO, to succeed, such an experiment must be within
the parameters of God's chosen terms of revelation.
IOW: if one's "experiment" is on the order of:
"God, if you are real then come shake my hand",
then I sincerely doubt God will comply.
The only means that I am aware of, of conducting what could be
characterized as a publicly visible and verifiable "experiment"
re: God is via the concept of prophecy and fulfillment.
TS> Thank you for your interest. WBW, John
TS> And thank you for your's. Terry Smith
--- MacWoof Eval:26Feb94
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From: John Prewett
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Evolution
Date: 11 Jul 94 15:50:33
--------
EID:5ba9 1ceb7e40
MSGID: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA471AC9
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
RS> No serious scientist that has ever considered the evidence has any
RS> doubt about it on the fundamentals. That the most sophisticated life
RS> forms have evolved from the least sophisticated ones.
JP> Not so.
RS> Is so.
I presumed you meant Creatorless evolution,
as opposed to "evolution" in the sense (due to intelligent input)
that cars "evolve" (which I don't dispute).
I apologize if I made an erroneous assumption
re: your meaning of "evolution".
Some scientist believe it is plausible that sans intelligent
input (Creator), life could have originated and "evolved".
And some don't.
RS> But here isnt an appropriate forum to discuss it,
RS> there are echoes specifically devoted to fundys flagrantly
RS> demonstrating their gross misunderstanding of the science.
If you don't consider this worth discussion, or
if you deem my input worthless,
then I hope you'll not bother to respond.
RS> There is still considerable argument about some of the detail, say how
RS> something as complex an an eye evolves and stuff like that,
JP> Certainly is.
RS> Which says nothing useful at all about whether the fundamentals of
RS> evolution are well established now or not.
Excuse me for agreeing with you.
RS> You can say the same thing about medicine.
RS> Some stuff like infection are now well understood,
RS> well enough understood to be able to wipe out smallpox completely.
RS> That doesnt mean we completely understand say AIDS yet tho.
Agreed. Science certainly doesn't. WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:26Feb94
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From: Eric Greene
To: Lars Janqqvist
Sub: Evolution
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:21:40
--------
EID:7631 1cebb2a0
MSGID: 1:133/208.1 2e21ffb6
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e1b7e25
Hiya Lars -
05 Jul 94, Lars Janqqvist writes to Chris Lawson:
LJ> Setting off a yak stampede Chris Lawson just HAD to mention "Evolution"
AL>> Time dilation has been established? I didn't know that, but no
AL>> matter.
CL>> Time dilatation was established by synchronising two atomic clocks.
CL>> One stayed on the ground; the other boarded an aircraft that flew at
CL>> extremely high altitude.
LJ> You came close. In fact the clock on the plane ran SLOWER as the
LJ> plane was moving faster than the clock on the ground. It all has to
LJ> do with speed, not gravity.
And you missed it by a few feet yourself. The gravity most certainly has
some
thing to do with time dilation. A clock on earth moves more slowly than
a clo
ck in space because time slows down in a gravitational field. It is this
effe
ct that was tested by placing clocks on planes and rocket.
Just moving a clock faster does not make that clock seemingly run faster
or sl
ower compared to a "stationary" clock. Recall that Special Relativity says
th
at to an observer on the moving plane, the earth bound clock will appear
to ru
n slower since there is no preferred reference frame.
It gets so bloody confusing....
Eric
Internet: erg@america.net
eric.greene@index.com
--- GoldED 2.41
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--------
From: Karen Davis
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Alternative medicine
Date: 09 Jul 94 09:29:00
--------
EID:e82a 1ce94ba0
JH> No. I'm not at liberty to divulge any more. Needless to say the
> lawyers can be heard chortling in the background at the prospect of good
> living for the next little while.
I know at least one other person who might have died due to chiropractic
treat
ment - whatever was done caused him to have a stroke. He's now a very wealthy
man, looking to buy a lear jet... :} *FORTUNATELY* he managed to recover
from
the damage done by the stroke enough to live a productive life.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Wading bird wearing lingerie: Victoria's Egret.
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From: Karen Davis
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Believe it or not.
Date: 10 Jul 94 04:49:00
--------
EID:c6d0 1cea2620
jf> Sunlight makes me sneeze. Not just the first sunlight
jf> of the day, either. If I look near the sun, I sneeze.
FR> That's funny. John Denver didn't add this to his list in his song about
> sunshine. }:-}
Makes me sneeze too. I heard that it is indeed a reaction in a certain percent
age of people.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Th is t ag li ne i n ja il , Do not steal.
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From: Karen Davis
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 10 Jul 94 11:55:00
--------
EID:b393 1cea5ee0
MH> Generally, Tim, Idiot Savants are not retarded. They are autistic.
> When able to be tested they tend to have a very high I.Q.
In certain areas. Autistics as a whole have generally rather strange IQ
rating
s, high in some areas, low in others.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Your honor roll student cheated from my child.
--- DB 1.51/004670
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From: J. Moore
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages o
Date: 12 Jul 94 11:48:11
--------
EID:3aa3 1cec5e00
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 760ce954
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
BAD
AE> for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign sublimina-ing
AE> implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
Could you please offer even an ounce of proof for this?
AE> Also.. turning to music... heavy metal have been found to contain
AE> subliminal messages in them as well.. I myself am not a big heavy metal
AE> fan so I get my info from what others say. There was a Guns and Roses
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
AE> The above is just what I hear HOWEVER I've also heard that Enigma also
AE> use this technique. Being curious, I recorded parts of RETURN TO THE
AE> INNOCENCE from their latest CD onto my computer. When reversed, words
AE> could be identified. From a parts statements such as "I use Nicotine"
"I
AE> also lie" were heard by me. From Sadness Part I there was a part where
AE> it said "I'm not nasty"
AE> Don't believe me? Just did what I've just done and see hear it for
AE> yourself. You need to go through it a couple of times before you
AE> actually pick it up.
AE> I'm curious about some Guns and Roses songs since I don't have a copy
of
AE> one. Anyone wanna try it out?
I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy] and hope to hear
much more from you [toidi na er'uoy] in the future. Your research
skills are truly [toidi na er'uoy] stellar, and I'm glad there are
people like you out there [toidi na er'uoy] to protect the rest of us
from this plague [toidi na er'uoy]. Keep up the good [toidi na er'uoy]
work, and keep posting [toidi na er'uoy]!
* Q-Blue 1.0
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From: Patrick Grote
To: All
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 12 Jul 94 22:44:11
--------
EID:f0c1 1cecb580
MSGID: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
Are there really people who still think that the government staged the
moon landing?
Thanks,
Patrick -=> on 07/12/94 at 22:44
---
* CMPQwk 1.4 #158 * "God is dead"-Nietzche "Nietzche is dead"-God
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'g'
* Origin: Support U. * We Support It All * (314)984-8387 (1:100/380)
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Russia In Space 1/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:17:00
--------
EID:69e4 1ceb3a20
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f58
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 3:15
> Hello, my friends, this is Dr. Beter. Today is September 29, 1978,
> and this is my Audioletter No. 38.
Anybody else read Dr. Beter's writings? What do you think?
> Many times in recent years Russian science has handed shocks to the
> West. For one thing, the Russians are stiff competitors in the
> areas of science where we too are strong; but in addition, they are
> devoting tremendous amounts of effort to areas of science which are
> virtually ignored in the West, and they have learned some
> astonishing things which are not even hinted at by Western science.
> Russian science is perhaps most spectacular in the field of space.
> Right now it's space weaponry that is in the forefront of Russian
> technical progress--such as the hovering Cosmospheres and the
> Charged Particle Beam-weapon. Both of these are exclusively the
> property of the Soviet Union.
Has anyone ever proven Dr. Beter wrong about these so-called
cosmospheres? Seems important, as they are said by him to be capable
of, among other things, affecting weather and initiating seismic
shocks. I would think that such an assertion coming from Dr. Beter in
1978, would have been thoroughly investigated.
> The Tunguska region of Siberia is so remote and inaccessible that
> it was not until 1927 that a Russian expedition succeeded in
> reaching the explosion site; but since that time the Russians, and
> only the Russians, have studied the area exhaustively.
> The Tunguska space object of 1908 had slowed down and carried out a
> major change of course. This final maneuver took it over the
> totally uninhabited area where it exploded at an altitude of
> several miles. The explosion itself has been estimated as being
> equivalent to a huge 30-megaton hydrogen bomb; and even today 70
> years later, the entire area remains slightly radioactive. To the
> Russians, there is only one logical explanation that fits the
> mountain of facts they have compiled about the Tunguska explosion:
> it was a disabled spacecraft which tried unsuccessfully to make an
> emergency landing, exploding in mid-air
Hmmmm. The official line is that it was a meteor. Now this is
another version of the same incident. Which is it?
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Ufo newspaper article. 01
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:18:01
--------
EID:7bab 1ceb3a40
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f59
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:39
> (From): JOHN_-_WINSTON@CUP.PORTAL
Here is an example of info JW posts, that I just dont get anywhere
else. Thanks, John.
> I thought you might Like to see this. There was a couple full page
> articles in the Seattle Times about UFO's and friends. Some one
> here is responding to the Newspaper's articles.
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 94 11:32:29 EST
> Subject: Open Letter to The Seattle Times
> Note: I am publishing the following letter to _The Seattle Times_
> on Usenet because _The Times_ has twice refused to publish my
> comments concerning their misleading coverage of the UFO
> controversy and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
Uh huh. Welcome to the club!
> I attended most of the recent CSICOP symposium held in Tukwila,
> including the talk by Dr. John Mack whom _The Times_ called a "true
> believer."
Oh how naughty! Look at the possible power of that moniker. Used in
a context to convey something negative, the word 'true' will be taken
into the mind as something bad, and the word 'believer' will be taken
into the mind as something bad. The power of this mind control of
words has an affect that reaches farther than thoughts of UFO's or
supposed abductions. It is an attack against 'truth' and 'belief'.
> Far more serious is the use of the demeaning phrase "UFO true
> believer" in the story's headline. This gives the false impression
> that scientists can be neatly divided into two camps: irrational
> true believers and rational skeptics. This is just plain silly, not
> to mention insulting to Mack and others who engage in controversial
> research. _The Times_ owes Dr. Mack an apology.
False impressions are what mind control is all about.
> Dietrich may be interested to know that the dozens of professional
> scientists who are now studying the UFO phenomenon have plenty of
> support among their mainstream colleagues, according to all surveys
> and polls on the subject.
Well, tell em to start publishing what they have been studying! We
dont hear from enough of them.
> A third questionable feature of Dietrich's story is the face-value
> acceptance he displayed toward the claims of Donna Bassett. Hard
> questions need to be asked of anyone who has admitted to having
> lied in pursuit of "the truth."
No. She couldnt have been a 'plant' ?
> Second, because scientists are occasionally fooled by dishonest
> people, it does not auto- matically follow that the whole body of
> their research has been discredited.
No?
> The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
> Paranormal (CSICOP) is an organization that attempts to set itself
> up as the sole judge of scientific truth.
What?
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Ufo newspaper article. 02
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:21:02
--------
EID:7aeb 1ceb3aa0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5a
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:40
> Science depends upon the willingness of a few brave scientists to
> take unpopular stands. Even if you disagree with them, they have a
> right to express their views without having their characters
> assassinated by _The Seattle Times._
Well, now at least without character assasinations, we would have room
for open discussion.
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Sitchen's Books
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:27:03
--------
EID:7516 1ceb3b60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5b
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Jack Mathias
* Originally to Glenda Stocks
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 7:19
Glenda wrote to Clark Hawthaway and said:
>> Are you speaking here of the broken comet or something approaching
>> Jupiter from beyond?
> I am referring to what is known as the broken comet. Has anyone here
> actually seen them, personally?
Surely you are not attempting to say that YOU actually believe that these
repo
rted comet fragments are alien ships moving in for the invasion. This is
strai
ght from George Green and Commander Hatonn and has NO TRUTH what-so-ever.
Jack
**my source ...*the real Hatonn*...**
--- FMail 0.96
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: John Winston
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:27:04
--------
EID:e887 1ceb3b60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5c
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:27
> (From): JOHN_-_WINSTON@CUP.PORTAL
> (To) : ALL
> System: SNET
> Conf. : 0017 - CONSPIRACY
> Dear Folks: Here is a person's comments and my answers to some of
> his questions....
> JW So that's what he said, so help me Kibo.
> John Winston.
I like to post some of John Winston's messages because he gets his
information from a WIDE variety of sources (no, not JUST from
enquirer, Sun, etc. type papers). Also, John injects his personal
humor and levity, which I find entertaining. He often posts unusual
stories that get your ole gray cells working and wondering. He is
often bashed on the nets, but it doesnt seem to bother him at all.
Someone created a usenet group for him, to stop him from posting to
their group, but it didnt work, and the result is, that folks who DO
like his postings have a group where they can get them without wading
through other groups. Funny, how the bashers even bash him in his own
group.
But John represents the people who are not afraid to go against the
status quo's thinking. He gives us a chance to look at alternative
viewpoints, and other people's thinking that we would not otherwise
get an opportunity to view. And John makes it fun, too.
Thanks John Winston for your efforts,
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96
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From: Don Allen
To: Rick Moen
Sub: I_ufo Echo
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:52:00
--------
EID:7ad5 1ceba680
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60115b08
REPLY: 1:125/27 e726d41b
PID: FM 2.02
Hi Rick,
...
> In short -- as I said -- just a rather inbred religion
> echo, with
> required beliefs and prohibited beliefs, founded to promote
> particular
> ideologies and exclude particular (disliked) ways of
> thinking. I don't
> object to this at all, in itself. I just object to the
> glaring
> hypocrisy of calling this echo a haven for open-mindedness,
> when
> in fact admission is based flagrantly on ideological tests.
Bingo! And that my dear Holmes, is elementary. :-)
They claim to be "tolerant"...but only if what you say doesn't clash with
that
ideology. The first moment that you state something they don't want to hear,
you get told real quickly that your're "ruining the friendly atmosphere".
Noti
ce the biggest clue to this ideological test is their own echo rules, totally
bereft of any sort of intellectual honesty. For example, it's a "no-no"
to ask
someone for proof of a claim, no matter how outrageous, as in Bartoo or
Boyla
n's cases. It's also this issue of their glaring hypocrisy that I find particu
larly galling, as exhibited soooo well in the 'skeptibunkers creed' of Mark
De
an and Cluck Huffaway's mouth music about the "evil HORRIBLE skeptics".
It seems it's very fashionable to bash the skeptics, and quite a convenient
sc
apegoat too for the True Believer's, then it is for these individuals to
actua
lly engage in any form of critical thinking. I call it mental laziness .
I
guess this is where the religious-belief system comes in. Believe _anything_
n
o matter how ridiculous or absurd. Test _nothing_ or put any significance
on p
roof. The very acme of this credulous believer attitude is wonderfully exempli
ed in I_UFO's moderator, Glenda Stocks. She puts a tremendous amount of
religi
ous faith/belief in the vaporous words of a channeled "Pleiadian Space Command
er" (Gyeorgos Ceres Hatonn). When 'Dr. Strange' glaringly caught Glenda
with h
er panties down clearly showing this Hatoons flagrantly anti-semitic bias
and
even when Rich Boylan put up a protest at this blatant Nazi propaganda,
(and j
ustifiably so, IMHO), this is when she admonished Boylan to "now remember
Rich
, have tolerance". Tolerance for _her_ viewpoint, that is. I daresay if
Boylan
had put up much more of a fuss condemning this anti-semitic bias, that he
wou
ld have received a shot across the bow in the form of a stern "moderator
warni
ng".
Just _try_ questioning her Guru, Walter "Kortron" Bartoo in I_UFO on _any_
of
his claims and see what happens. You'll be accused of "being unfriendly".
:-(
Bartoo puts out more bullshit claims and unsubstantiated assertions than
any p
erson I know of, _anywhere_. He's a "Walk-in Starseed World Commander" and
a "
Tron". (giggle!)
In one respect, these true believer's are exceedingly hilarious, in another
qu
ite pathetic. While I have taken my fair share of brickbats for running
the "s
keptics UFO echo" I would not have it any other way, for the conference
is ope
n to both believers and skeptics alike. I just don't know of any other way
to
promote _balance_ between the diverse viewpoints. Maybe I'm old- fashioned..bu
t I think the *idea* here is to get to the verifiable facts, by sorting
throug
h the numberless claims surrounding the UFO phenomenon. We shall not find
thos
e facts by leaping off into a patently uncritical religious _belief_ system,
s
uch as what I_UFO promotes. Gak!
Don
--- FMail 0.96
* Origin: A cult is a religion with no political power - T. Wolfe (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Superconductivity info! 2/3
Date: 12 Jul 94 17:03:00
--------
EID:1172 1cec8860
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6090dd64
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Glenda Stocks
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 9:42
>> Through the help of a colleague, Allan Ames of Advanced Scientific
>> Applications (Houston, TX), one of Fogal's semiconductors will be
>> tested by scientists at the Texas Center for Superconductivity at
>> the University of Houston. This is being arranged through Wei-Kan
>> Chu. SN discussed the situation with Chu and he confirmed that
>> testing will be done after the documents he had received were
>> reviewed.
> Finally something to confirm your pre-announcement. You and I have
> taken a lot of abuse on the nets about our announcement of this
> device. I was slammed on Internet, and you, on Fidonet. Maybe now
> those people can do their own followup research.
> SHEESH ! Glenda
(WB) Hi Glenda: Ofcourse we did, people cannot accept change because of
fear
programming of change. That is what this programming was dezigned to do.
If y
ou
study how our society was dezigned and how direct social programming was
dezig
ned, worked and was built into it by those controling us and doing this
you begin to see the plan used to manipulate everyone in it their advantage.
Y
ou
can't control a free thinker who has risen above it, they wont allow it.
Those realising this at some point fall out of this condition and begin
to
question it. Then they begin to look at it more closely and begin to see
why
this was done. It begins at a very early age and follows each member of
our
society into every age level. Those that resist it, try new things and bring
out new things. Then they are my subject to something that becomes a life
long
battle to not be controled by it, wake up the rest and maintain not being
influenced by it in doing this. Those supporting those finding new concepts
an
d
inventions are also attacked, discredited and undermined by those supporting
t
he
debilating system. Most are not even aware there is anything wrong, even
to th
e point of their actions. Because they are fullfilling a need that was instill
ed by the programming similar to child abuse they inflict on everyone around
t
hem keeping the cycle going. This is sad and can be seen in certain people
in
the way they react and deny any new concept. By doing this fullfills the
need
created by the abuse they cannot understand or see
they have been victumized by and take into the next generation and those
aroun
fd them. It's vicious cycle it's called mind control.
Those that protect the systems programming are the best examples of how
it wor
ks. These folks are the programed Zombies, subsceptable, and influenced
by it
and are the best examples of this working in their fighting for it's continued
adherence. These refuse every attempt to wake up or the waking up
others they see going on the undermine.
Behind the scenes free thinkers are merging into groups. These groups are
divi
ding society and will eventually bring in the needed changes. Reason being
onc
e you know theres no going back. I agree it's a battle, but one worth waging
a
nd one worth winning. We like them have no choice, we can't go back either.
Be
cause once you know the truth it sets you free, Then it alienates you from
the
rest of society. The difference now is, we know what
is real and they have no idea what we are talking about, nor do they care.
Sorry having got you into this but try to remember this is a part of those
awa
ke and who we are to each other. It's are real family and we must now support
it or this planet will be swallowed up and destroyed by ignorance that is
even
now working against the controler.
regards Walter.
> --- GEcho 1.02+
> * Origin: Ask your FIDO feed for CHANNELS (1:330/201)
--- FMail 0.96
* Origin: Bartoo.sys found. Engage bullshit detector? (Yes/Fnord!) (1:3623/18
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--------
From: Denise Weinmann
To: 6}T
Sub: {hm
Date: 13 Jul 94 09:54:54
--------
EID:4eaa 1ced4edb
MSGID: 1:396/65.0 2e23f22e
%9;biN Q7ow?q4r6R$.A64@zLfIZ,Hx&?;RA@ @ 5|6Hb+~AI]Ju|%, Adrian Eng of 3:690/245 writes:
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
I know that there is no evidence that "subliminal messages" actually DO
anythi
ng.
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
AE> BAD for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign
AE> sublimina-ing implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
They did? Please cite your evidence.
Also, simply because they got sued doesn't mean subliminals DO anything.
Beli
eve it or not, the court is not the judge of what is or is not scientifically
valid.
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
Even if this is true, you are confusing backwards masking with subliminals
--
of course neither of them have any evidence to support that they do anything.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Don Allen
Sub: Kortron Speaks 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 13:10:00
--------
EID:91ab 1cec6940
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1ce
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f135ed2
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
More good stuff. My database will be very well stocked.
> with. The secret government wanted genetic gene splicing
> techniques
> which was a field the Greys were adept at and other technology
> in
> order to create a superior being to fulfill their ideas, plans
> and future needs.
So we just need to watch for some of the usual suspects to suddenly show
up wi
th new youthful, superlatively fit bodies, eh? Wonder how Nixon missed getting
his. And what about Kissinger, Perot, and Benson?
> The Greys needed a specie that could be gene spliced into a
> crossbreed
> with their dying race. An agreement was reached allowing the
> greys to harvest human seed for their own use in this endeavor.
This is the weakest part. What is a "dying race"? One that's losing fertility?
If they know that much about gene splicing they don't need us, they just
need
to haul out their equivalent of dead pharoahs, bog people, ice age burials,
e
tc, and reconstruct their previous genetics, no need to fiddle with foreign
co
ding.
I suspect that this is a leftover, an evolutionary vestige if you will,
of the
older "Mars Needs Women" concept, where the goal was direct crossbreeding.
Bu
t we can't have the aliens fall behind our own science, so when gene splicing
came in, the old story was updated to include it, without anyone thinking
it t
hrough and seeing that it was now superfluous. Hmm, ufo conspiracy nuts
doing
a rational analysis? *That* would be evidence of alien intervention!
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: BASIS
Date: 12 Jul 94 13:12:00
--------
EID:6b40 1cec6980
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1cf
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 5f116dc2
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> db> Saw your letter in a recent issue of BASIS, about carrying organized
> db> skepticism into other areas. I pretty much agree completely. Just
> db> thought you'd want to know.
> Alas, I have not been getting BASIS since the last time I
> updated my subscription. I have this sinking feeling
> that BASIS is being sent to the Holland address I sent the
> renewal from. The owners of the house are probably reading it
> even now!
Does that mean you're back? If so, please call me voice at 602-327-1897.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Jonathan Jermey
Sub: Primitive Cultures Vs Ind
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:28:00
--------
EID:dd72 1cebb380
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Jonathan Jermey to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> One of the early French groups that settled here, lead by a
RM> priest, put on a military show for the local natives, with
RM> the Chief as the guest of honour. In a march-by of some sort,
RM> a drummer boy, leading the troops, accidentally did something
RM> (I forget what) that caused a minor injury (or offense) to
RM> the chief.
JJ> Just a point - how 'civilised' is it to take offence at something
JJ> that was a) accidental and b) void of any genuine harm or damage? In
JJ> my book civilised attitudes include tolerance of children, newcomers
JJ> and the inexperienced.
Sure thing. It just seems to me that the incident, from our modern vantage
point, makes both societies look equally primitive. While the natives look
greedy and self-serving, the French looked cruel.
I'll give you another example.
One time I read the diary of the U.S. official who was sent to Fond du Lac
(the present site of Duluth, Minnesota) in about 1850 to sign a treaty with
the Chippewa. This guy felt pure pity for these savages and the poverty
and wretched conditions that they lived in, and genuinely wanted to help
them. There was a teenaged Indian girl in the camp that had a serious
illness (unable to talk, paralyzed on one side, very sick). His diary
spoke disparagingly of the herbal remedies and chants that the local shaman
was using to try to cure her.
So he decided to help her himself. He visited her daily, and applied the
current "modern" medicine - he bled her. One day from her left temple,
the
next day from her right, then from other sites on her body. If I remember
correctly, the amounts of blood involved were small, probably not harmful.
But it was an interesting example of the juxtaposition of the two
technologies. The guy who recorded it had an absolute faith that _his_
technology was vastly superior to that of the "poor savages" - it just went
without saying. From our modern vantage point, OTOH, they both look
equally primitive and ineffective. But still we seem to retain that
official's unquestioned (indeed, unrecognized) assumption that all aspects
of our culture are and always were light years ahead of the "savages".
Take care.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Rod Speed
Sub: ritual mutilation 1/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:22:00
--------
EID:4dc1 1cebb2c0
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Rod Speed to Terry Smith <=-
TS> It seems plausible to me that one reason these breeds were docked was
TS> to lessen the chances of pack formation.
RS> Its essentially an appearance thing. There have been similar
RS> approaches with cropped ears. Some of the pack dogs are short tailed,
RS> cocker spaniels for example.
I think you're right, Rod. My brother-in-law had two dobermans (dobermen?
), one that was never docked - floppy ears and long tail - and a second
one that had been docked. The docked one _looked_ much more fierce
(especially because of the ears, rather than the tail) than the natural
one
(which looked like a large, long-legged daschund). I believe, in the case
of that breed at least, that was the reason that the practice began - to
give the dog a more viscious appearance (erect ears make the dog seem more
alert and threatening, while a wagging tail would detract fromthe image).
Also, there was a definite difference in temperment between these two dogs,
even though they were kept in the same houshold, and treated the same.
This may have been due to natural personality differences, or the fact that
the docked one was male, and the other was female. But, I can't help but
speculate that perhaps, people reacted to the docked dog's appearance with
more fear, which the dog was able to sense, making him more agressive.
I
think this may also have been understood by the people who started the
practice (at least in the case of that breed).
RS> Particularly when some of the breeds deliberately bred for fighting
RS> and viciousness dont have shortened tails. There is no obvious
RS> association at all.
I doubt that his explanation (that it was done to impede pack formation)
is
right. There are probably different reasons for it with each breed where
it is practiced. Probably mostly to change appearance, although perhaps
sometimes for health reasons.
TS> My point was that it constitutes maiming,
RS> I know thats the point you were trying to make. IMO you still havent
RS> done so. They arent maimed at all. Essentially its just an appearance
RS> thing which has no dramatic effect on the dog.
"Maim" (to me at least) carries some implication of impaired function, and
that ain't so in this case.
"Mutilate" (to me at least) doesn't necessarily carry that distinction,
and would be a better choice of words, but is still probably too strong.
All of which means that I agree with you on this one.
How about "disfigure"? That seems more appropriate to me, as a description
of the practice. It certainly doesn't seem like a civilized thing to do.
Why not breed the beggars to have short tails and erect ears in the first
place ?
Take care.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Maloney
To: All
Sub: Hitler
Date: 12 Jul 94 12:43:00
--------
EID:43a1 1cec6560
MSGID: 1:2613/220 618c3446
I wouldn't know if this would really fit in here or not, but I have a question
for you all... Was Hitler a smart man??? It would seem he was because
of hi
s pre-war accomplishments, but what he did during the war was just plan
dumb..
. I'd like to hear your views... And the second one is, would saying "...
yo
u slut looking bitch..." be bad enough that it would cause expulsion from
a BB
S???
--- PCB 15.1/GEcho 1.02+
* Origin: -=TPZ=- * (716)473-5204 * (716)473-0252 * (1:2613/220)
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Life and NDEs
Date: 13 Jul 94 06:57:40
--------
EID:065b 1ced3720
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43bc0c36
The following is an article from the June '94 (Vol. 2, #6) issue of The
REALL
News. It may be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper
c
redit is given. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any
public
ation that reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may
also
be cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences.
This article represents the opinions of its author, and does not necessarily
represent the opinions of REALL or its officers.
=============================================================================
A Matter of Life and Near-Death
by Robert E. McGrath
Susan Blackmore, _Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences_.
Prometheus Books, 291 pp, hbk, 1993, $23.95.
In the last 20 years there has been an explosion of
interest in Near-Death Experiences (NDEs). Books and
articles have reported dozens of cases of people who, while
apparently unconscious and near death, had amazing,
life-transforming experiences before returning to life. They
recall leaving their body, flying through a tunnel toward a
bright light, meeting luminous beings, and then returning to
life in their body. After a NDE, the person's life is
changed forever, and they strive to live each day to the
fullest.
Similar experiences are reported around the world and
throughout history. It is widely believed that these
experiences are evidence of a spirit or soul which exists in
a higher or alternate reality. In this view, the NDE occurs
when this spirit leaves the dying body and shows that the
soul continues to exist after death. These contentions
appear to fly in the face of materialistic science, and NDEs
seem to offer objective proof of a major paranormal
phenomenon. Can science take up the challenge, and provide
an alternative account of NDEs?
Susan Blackmore, Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the
University of West England, takes on this difficult task,
requiring a careful examination of the NDE, setting forth a
theory to explain the facts, and evaluating the competing
explanations. Blackmore does all three, and in doing so
provides a dandy example of how to ask good questions, what
sorts of answers are useful, and how to think
critically-even about life, death, and self-awareness.
What, if anything, is a NDE? Blackmore reviews the
evidence and finds that there is a recognizable phenomenon,
as described in the NDE literature. The NDE is a complex set
of experiences, although not every NDE includes all the
elements. The features include:
- a feeling of sublime bliss and peace
- a feeling that time stops a feeling of leaving the
body, that is, an out-of-body experience (OBE)
- flying through a "tunnel" toward a bright light
- meeting departed loved-ones or other spirit beings
- reliving episodes from life.
These, then, are what needs to be explained.
Blackmore shows that most of the elements of the
experience are not unique to the NDE but are known to happen
in other conditions, such as drug-induced hallucinations,
epilepsy, and mystic trances. This suggests that there are
common mechanisms responsible for the experiences. For
example, the classic "tunnel" experience is reported from
OBEs when the person is not near death, and from drug trips.
In fact, Professor Blackmore herself has had such an
experience.
Many people who have had a NDE give accurate reports of
events during the time they were unconscious. These reports
are difficult to confirm because the people involved were
usually in a life and death struggle at the time and not
carefully recording all the details. It does seem true,
though, that people can sometimes perceive events around
them, even while apparently unconscious. These perceptions,
Blackmore says, appear to be limited to what one would
expect if the normal senses were still partly working.
Blackmore could find no solid evidence of paranormal
perception during a NDE. This is consistent with her
findings about OBEs in her earlier book, _Beyond the Body_
[1].
cont...
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: NDEs, 2/2
Date: 13 Jul 94 07:01:25
--------
EID:3611 1ced3820
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43bc0e9c
cont...
As an alternative to the popular "afterlife"
explanation, Blackmore constructs a theory of the NDE based
upon brain physiology, cognitive psychology and her own
previous work on OBEs [2]. The NDE is, she says, the
experience that happens as the brain slowly dies. She
explains what is understood of how the healthy brain works,
and what happens as, suffocating and cut off from normal
sensory input, the brain struggles to survive and maintain a
coherent model of the world. This death struggle, she
argues, produces the abnormal experiences of the NDE.
Blackmore hypothesizes that the "tunnel" experience is
due to abnormal activity in the visual cortex caused by slow
anoxia, or oxygen starvation. The feelings of peace and
bliss are probably due to a flood of endorphins released in
response to the trauma of dying. Endorphins may also cause
seizures which trigger the vivid memories of life events.
Thus, some of the elements of the NDE are probably due to
the physiology of the dying brain. What about the more
complicated experiences, such as the OBE and the
psychological transformation so frequently reported?
The OBE is, according to Blackmore's theory, a
malfunction of the way that the brain normally maintains a
model of "me in the world". This model is responsible for
the everyday experience of being "in the body" and
perceiving the "real world out there". As the dying brain is
cut off from sensory input and starts malfunctioning, the
model of "me" and "the world" disintegrates. The brain
fights to live, though, and builds replacement models using
the best data available: fragments of perceptions, memories,
and imaginative reconstruction. These elements play a role
in everyday perception of the world, but in the absence of
external data, the model produced may depart quite a bit
from actual events. Blackmore theorizes that the best model
available is experienced as "reality", no matter how weird
by normal standards.
Blackmore's theory explains the relationship between the
NDE and other related phenomena, such as OBEs, drug
hallucinations, and mystic experiences. It also explains the
everyday "in-the-body-experience", and offers deep insight
into just who the 'I' is that inhabits 'my' body. There is
no 'me' inside, Blackmore concludes. The experience of "me
in the world" is what the brain feels as it models reality.
Blackmore suggests that in some NDEs and in certain mystic
states there is a time when this model is broken down. This
is the feeling of "timelessness", she says, and this
experience is what transforms the life of the person. It is
a glimpse past the everyday illusion of "me in the world",
and normal life can never be "real" in quite the same way
after this experience.
Blackmore's first book, _Beyond the Body_, was the
definitive examination of OBEs, and this new book is the
definitive examination of NDEs. Professor Blackmore shows
that science can not only address the issues raised by OBEs
and NDEs, but that by doing so, we are led to important
scientific understandings. Further, these understandings
have deep implications for what it means to be human, and
how to live and die well.
References
1. _Beyond the Body_. Heinemann, London, 1982. American
paperback edition, Academy Chicago Publications, Chicago,
1992.
2. "A Psychological Theory of the Out-Of-Body Experience",
_Journal of Parapsychology_, Volume 48, 1984, pp. 201-218.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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From: David Bloomberg
To: Patrick Grote
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:32:02
--------
EID:aa34 1cedac00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40724
REPLY: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
In a msg to All on , Patrick Grote of 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG
writ
es:
PG> Are there really people who still think that the government staged the
PG> moon landing?
Yes. One of them was posting not too long ago in the UFO echo.
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:33:53
--------
EID:b757 1cedac20
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40bc1
REPLY: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb002
In a msg to Jackson Harding on , Mia Cline of 1:201/20 writes:
JH> OK, who is Dr Maher, what are his qualifications, where is he working
at
JH> the moment and what are the highlights of his academic career to date?
MC>
MC> She has done her research in Chicago as i stated before. Her
MC> specialties are in Parapsychology which includes ghosts.
I must have missed this earlier message. What was her research in? What's
he
r PhD in? Where can I read the results of these studies?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ed Hackett
Sub: I_ufo
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:35:54
--------
EID:bfe5 1cedac60
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40fb6
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Ed Hackett of 1:275/17 writes:
DB> Actually, it does. I have seen their type before. "We must allow
DB> all views! Except those which disagree with ours..."
EH> Remember Animal Farm...
Ooooh, good comparison!
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--------
From: Tom Bomhower
To: Karen Davis
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:08:11
--------
EID:421f 1ceda900
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 76954229
MH> Generally, Tim, Idiot Savants are not retarded. They are autistic.
> When able to be tested they tend to have a very high I.Q.
KD>In certain areas. Autistics as a whole have generally rather strange
IQ
KD>ratings, high in some areas, low in others.
Autism is as yet, like schizophrenia, more of a political than a
scientific term.
It first allows psychiatrists to sound as though they are scientists
and psychology to pose as being a comprehensive science, with categories
sufficient to every purpose.
It then allows parents to shop around for a diagnosis that they can
live with, rather than retarded/dysfunctional/incompetent.
Odd, isn't it, how people are reassured by finding out that there is a
specific label for their problem - even though it does not in fact leave
them any better off than before - as long as that label doesn't contain
an obviously negative word, prefix or suffix.
T. Bomhower
---
* DeLuxe* 1.25 #898sa * copyright 1994, T. Bomhower
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Re: The flood
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:06:31
--------
EID:349c 1ceba0c0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ec26d01b
MH> In the late 19th century there were two geological\paleological
MH> schools.. Uniformitarianism and Catastrophism.
MH> The latter believed in Divine intervention in the natural
MH> catastrophies.
Actually, no. This latter bit is not true. 19th C. catastrophism
did not entail divine intervention. It simply assumed relatively (on
geological/biological scales) sudden development of life and geological
forms. Uniformitarianism seemed to be the most likely model at the
time, because generally known natural processes seemed mostly gradual,
so that school prevailed until about 20 years ago.
MH>But they both agreed that there occurred a flood that covered Asia
MH>Minor, Europe ,and Asia.
Actually, this view had largely vanished in the scientific community by
the time of Darwin's travels (1830s), because the quantity of water
involved was clearly impossible over that area, and evidence for it
occuring was lacking. There was plenty of evidence for _local_ flooding
at _different_ times, but not for one widespread one.
There is good coverage of all this, plus the resurgence of a modified
form of catatrophism in recent decades, in _Cosmic Catastrophes_ by
David Morrison and (forget the name of his co-author).
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Re: Fringe science?
Date: 12 Jul 94 21:22:54
--------
EID:3060 1cecaac0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d01b
RS>While I agree with the vast bulk of the stuff you said to Sue, there
RS>are some quibbles.
RS>...
RS>Generally the term replication is used to describe experimental
RS>design which has its own duplication, replication. You would normally
RS>use the phrase 'independent experimental verification' or something
RS>like that for someone else doing the essentially the same
RS>experimentation themselves.
You may well be right -- or we may each be right in slightly differing
contexts. I'm not sure. However, I double-checked on the USENET
alt.paranormal and sci.skeptic newsgroups, and found that both Roger D.
Nelson and York H. Dobyns of the PEAR lab, in separate discussions,
used the term the way I did -- for whatever that's worth. Those two
fellows are both experienced and respected parapsychologists.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Lewis Marvich
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 23:56:07
--------
EID:10c6 1cecbf00
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d11b
LM> What does being "right" or "wrong" have to do with being a skeptic?
What does "weird" used of "quotation marks" have to do with this "echo"?
(Gee, that's fun, isn't it? :-> )
LM> As I understand skepticism, one very necessary thing is not to
LM> prejudge a new idea or concept.
No. Skepticism is simply critical inquiry into testable fringe-science
claims of fact. It does not have any particular ideological content,
beyond that. It's not fundamentally about "ideas or concepts".
LM> You are supposed to gather proof either for or against, until a
LM> consensus of trained and educated people agree that an idea is
LM> valid or invalid. Is this not so?
"You" can do anything "your" little heart desires. However, skepticism
has no obvious connection with _ideas_ being "valid or invalid"
(whatever that means), nor with "proof" (whatever you mean by that).
Skeptics are fundamentally concerned with particular claims of
fringe-science fact. Get it?
LM> At one time the idea that "invisible bugs" could make a healthy
LM>person ill or kill them was scoffed at and ridiculed. The supporters
LM>of the "Germ Theory" were able to gather the proof they needed for
LM>their idea to gain acceptance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they laughed at Galileo, right? (They laughed at
the Keystone Cops, too.)
LM> Angels, demons, extra-terrestrials, U.F.O. abductions or succubi; I
LM>do not reject these ideas _or_ support them without repeatable
LM>proof.
Ain't concerned here with "rejecting" or "supporting" _ideas_.
Get a clue, Lewis, and report back when you find one.
LM> Saying that most who do support fringe science are stupid,
LM> ignorant and crazy is again prejudging.
Do you have in mind anyone in particular who you think does this, or is
this just another vapid generality?
LM> Just as someone who claims that anyone who doesn't believe in their
LM> U.F.O.s are dupes of the government, or lying participants in the
LM> "conspiracy", is guilty of the same.
Hey, your mama ever tell you you missed your calling in life, and
should'a been a preacher?
LM> A willingness to change a previously held idea or theory is just as
LM> much a part of being a skeptic as trying to de-bunk false ideas.
Hm... How about this one? "Buy low and sell high." OK, now it's
_your_ turn again to post a hyper-obvious truism.
LM> That is all I wanted to ask/say. I look forward to responses.
Please see comment, below.
LM>... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
Tres a propos. ;->
Cheeri-o,
Rick M.
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Lewis Marvich
Sub: Re: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:00:14
--------
EID:5cf0 1cec0000
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d21b
LM>JH> If they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be
LM>JH> it, but we don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
LM>
LM> Absolutely. If there are problems they should be handled at
LM> whatever level is appropriate; SYSOP, FIDO, etc.
That would be appropriate if there were grounds for a Policy complaint,
which no one alleged that there was -- or have you been hallucinating?
All that has occurred here is comment on the hypocrisy entailed in
another echo's mode of operation.
You have a problem with that, Lewis?
LM> Participants of both echoes tend to have directly opposing
LM> viewpoints and "Preaching to the heathen", as it were, will
LM> accomplish nothing.
No, they do not have directly opposing viewpoints, and speaking of
this echo as the purveyor of a belief system is simply an error on
your part. If you knew diddly about the subject, you would not make
such an allegation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Re: Bodily molecule recycl
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:03:53
--------
EID:799b 1cec0060
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d31b
RJ> Since I'm new here, is playing devil's advocate applicable as
RJ> a form of skepticism? By raising doubts about someone's reason
RJ> for doubting, will that help achieve a goal?
Playiung devil's advocate is playing devil's advocate. Skepticism is
critical inquiry into testable fringe-science claims of fact.
RJ> Suppose you could inform me on the working definition of skepticism
RJ> here: are valid models to be proposed, or is it to solely
RJ> invalidate spurious ones?
Please see above, plus (more fundamentally) moderator Jackson Harding's
guidelines, and skeptics' journals such as CSICOP's _Skeptical
Inquirer_.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Chris Cox
Sub: Re: Conference
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:15:51
--------
EID:14e4 1cec01e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d41b
CC>I think we are straying from the original topic of this conference.
This conference is _always_ straying. Most people passing through
here either haven't a clue what the echo's supposed to be about, or
don't care, or are cranks of various sorts seeking new audiences.
CC>Dont you think?
Never on Wednesdays. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Re: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:52:17
--------
EID:6d65 1cec0680
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d51b
SD> I am skeptical of skeptics because all skeptics do is be skeptical.
SD> [eighty lines of abused electrons omitted out of kindness]
Well, you clearly haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about,
but you're probably correct in your intuition that you wouldn't like
this echo, and we-all won't likely miss you, either. Please don't let
the door hit you on the tuchis, on your way out.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
Oh, what the heck, let's play count the fallacies . . . .
SD> I don't think it's a good attempt at finding the truth,
Gratuitous editorialising, without even a pretense at reasoning.
SD> but it's a very good attempt at being popular and agreed with.
Impugn people's _motives_, if you don't care to address whether their
_views have merit_. Sometimes readers won't notice that you've changed
the subject and are engaged in a form of name-calling.
SD> You see most fight change or new ideas, this is very much an
SD> ingrained reaction to anything new that comes along.
This of course attributes to us-all an intent none of us have ever
expressed, so it's fundamentally a flat-out irrelevancy. However, it's
worth noting in passing that this takes the form of an "argumentum ad
novitam", the fallacy of asserting that something is correct simply
because it is new or newer than something else. The opposite fallacy
is called "argumentum ad antiquitam".
SD> It's understandable that people would fight something rather than
SD> try to understand it, it's obvious that they will resist something
SD> that seeks to change them.
Gratuitous and ignorant psychoanalysis. This is such a modern fallacy
that I doubt it has a name, yet. Maybe "Draper syndrome" will do. ;->
SD> Even if something that seeks to make things better or more
SD> understandable.
A simple irrelevancy. (Sorry, I can't make this one interesting.)
SD> Skeptics are popularists in wolfs clothing, they follow the
SD> trends and the mainstream,....
This of course is argumentum ad antiquitam! Rather amusing, no?
SD> ...they don't wish to understand, they wish to stop! They are sad
SD> people quite unable to doing anything else, as they consider that
SD> it's the only thing to do.
More ignorant, gratuituous psychoanalysis.
SD> Skeptics have no purpose for themselves other than stopping strange
SD> and unpopular material dead in it's [sic] tracks.
Another intent never expressed by people here (but then we're no longer
surprised, at this point).
SD> Sure there are credulous people out there, many who would jump if
SD> someone said jump, but skeptics don't protect them and never will!
Simple non-sequitur, since no one ever claimed that skeptics' purpose
is to "protect the credulous". However, it's also worth noting that
this feeble argument (where we're supposed to conclude that skeptics
are ineffective, since they aim to protect the credulous and fail) is
not only illogical, but also that the one premise that _is_ present
(that skeptics don't protect the credulous) is unsupported!
SD> Skeptics are only an aberrant people...
Argument ad hominem at its finest!
SD> ...attempting to be noticed and agreed with whether or no what they
SD> say is true or not.
More gratuitous, ignorant psychoanalysis.
SD> Consider[ing that] this universe offers a relative scale of
SD> truths, I don't think that the skeptics could ever find agreement
SD> unless they wanted to turn this universe up on it's [sic] head or
SD> rebuild it from day 1.
The close is a sweeping flourish of (incoherent) personal opinion. How
appropriate. [Insert Lowell Thomas voice here:] And so we say a fond
farewell (one hopes) to Stewart Draper, man of many sophistries. . . .
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Jonathan Jermey
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 01:04:49
--------
EID:ae21 1cec0880
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d61b
JJ> DB> Blackmore discussed the classic parapsychological concept of
JJ> DB> sheep (those who tend to believe in the paranormal) and goats
JJ> DB> (those who tend to disbelieve the paranormal).
JJ>...
JJ> DB> She imagines continuously soaring, at first sheep-ish, then
JJ> DB> more goat-ish, and back again. She calls this, "being a
JJ> DB> `flying horse,'" and calls upon us all to join her in this
JJ> DB> category. (See [8].) This is both sound psychological theory
JJ> DB> and good skeptical practice.
JJ>So, given a choice of being wrong or right, it is good skeptical
JJ>practice to be half-wrong and half-right? Since Blackmore's 'sheep'
JJ>are, generally speaking, the less intelligent, less educated, more
JJ>disturbed portion of the population, I don't see any sense in
JJ>emulating them in any way at all. Educating them, yes.
My, aren't YOU self-congratulatory today? Well, if you're entirely
done patting yourself on the back for not being like those awful
plebian-types, perhaps you could try comprehending Blackmore's point:
Along with more concrete measures to ensure that a parapsychology
experiment isn't skewed by embedding one's expectations into the
experimental technique, it's probably _indeed_ a good idea to attempt
to vary one's anticipations about the outcome, for at least two reasons:
(1) to make sure any skewing that might occur in spite of experimental
controls tends to balance out, and (2) to invalidate the hypothesis
(for whatever it's worth) that experimenters' expectations in such
experiments have a direct effect (of some generally unspecified sort)
on outcomes.
If all _you're_ about is calling people relatively stupid, ignorant,
and unbalanced, then maybe what you need is some sort of religion.
It'll certainly get you nowhere, where testable claims of fact are
concerned. It sure as hell isn't needed in skeptics' groups, thank you.
JJ>... Free advice, and worth every cent.
Should I? . . . Nah.
Cheers,
Rick Moen
Member, Board of Directors
Bay Area Skeptics
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Re: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 12 Jul 94 01:22:20
--------
EID:0d6d 1cec0ac0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d71b
JH> I think we can all take it as read that the crowd over in I_UFO are
JH> wearing a set of blinkers big enough for a very large horse. If
JH> they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be it, but we
JH> don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
Jackson, pardon my speaking up . . . (It's not as though I ever have
before. ;-> ) . . . but, their _echo war_ isn't spilling over here.
All we're seeing is some relayed representative posts from it, and
some comments on the evolution of that echo. Might I suggest that,
as long as the posts don't become monotonous or too frequent, that
this case-study in the early formative stages of a new neo-religious
forum might be fascinating, and very much of interest, here?
Let me tell you a little background, to explain what I find so
fascinating:
The I_UFO echo is the result of a VERY odd, unstable coalition of
people that the FidoNet UFO echo moderators have managed, through
impartial enforcement of their rules, managed to alienate:
-- the abductee culture
-- classic New Agers
-- alien-propulsion-technology buffs and theorists
-- anti-skeptic crusaders
-- MUFON (the USA's biggest UFO-oriented group)
Now, many of these sub-groups pretty nearly hate one another on sight.
At least, they ordinarily have nothing to do with one another. All
find themselves flocking together after being (sometimes forcefully)
that long-winded discussions that just aren't about UFOlogy will be
quashed on FidoNet UFO.
Two things have mainly held them together: Being anti-Don-Allen's-echo,
and reaction against the two or three token skeptics who have been in
the echo until recently. If, as seems likely, they proceed along the
current course of discouraging anyone remotely skeptical from posting
at all, most of the impulse for solidarity will vanish. The interesting
question then will be what will they do next?
In the meantime, I've been finding at least _some_ of the comments and
cross-posts to be interesting (though at times they've been a bit much).
Personally, I'd like to continue to see them -- in moderation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Fred Garvin
To: Patrick Grote
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:11:34
--------
EID:e414 1cee4960
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 2e253986
REPLY: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
PG> Are there really people who still think that the
PG> government staged the
PG> moon landing?
Yes there are. There are also people who believe the Earth is flat, government
can give free health care, and Elvis is alive and well and living at Burger
K
ing.
--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: The Track Hound 713 331-4106 (1:106/4106)
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Chris Lawson
Sub: Relativity
Date: 12 Jul 94 22:24:00
--------
EID:502f 1cecb300
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Chris Lawson to Rod Speed <=-
Good morning, Chris.
JF> Or is this some sort of 2-way deal -- where travelling away from the
JF> Earth we would arrive at our destination some thousands of years in
JF> the future, travelling back to the earth we would arrive "back" in
JF> the same time period we left?
RS> No, there is a nett difference in elapsed time for the traveller and
the
RS> stay at homes. But thats all. The traveller ages at a different rate
to
RS> the stay at homes.
CL> As you say, it don't work like that. Time dilatation is not a vector
CL> phenomenon. IOW, it doesn't matter what direction you go in, it's
CL> purely a function of relative velocities between reference frames.
But the question wasn't as dumb as it sounds, because all motion is
relative. One of the basic assumptions of Special Relativity (which is
where the time dilation idea comes from) is that there is no preferred
inertial frame of reference. All inertial reference frames are equally
valid. The explanation as to why the traveller is the one that experiences
less time isn't so simple as just saying that time dilation isn't a vector
phenomenon.
So if I pass you at close to c, and compare the rates of our clocks, it
appears to me that your clock is running slow. But, since your frame of
reference is equally valid, at the same time it also appears to you that
_my_ clock is running slow.
You say that if I hop in a space ship, leaving my twin brother
behind, and accelerate to a relativistic (near c) speed, from his
reference frame, my clock is running slow. And I when I turn around and
come back, I find that my twin is significantly older than me. Right?
But, lets shift this to _my_ reference frame. If all motion is relative,
my reference frame is just as valid as my twin's, no? From _my_ point of
view, the earth accelerated away from me, and approached c, therefore,
_his_ clock slowed down. Same thing for the return trip. So, viewed this
way, when the earth finally returns to meet me, my twin should be
significantly _younger_ than me.
That's the REAL "twin paradox".
The source of the paradox is that only _inertial_ reference frames are
equally valid. As soon as we bring acceleration into the picture, (which
we have to do in order to return), Special Relativity no longer applies,
and the much more complex General Relativity comes into play. And since
I
don't understand General Relativity, I have to stop at that point .
Take care.
... What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing. (Aristotle)
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 2 (1:222/10.0)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 13 Jul 94 17:35:00
--------
EID:0cdc 1ced8c60
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 611128da
REPLY: 1:343/210 86DCB4C3
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> DP| > Only problem here is that this is not how batteries
> work...
> DP| > The electrolyte ( H2SO4 - sulfuric acid ) forms lead
> sulphide
> | > with the
> | > lead electrodes, yielding water H2O as a byproduct.
> DP|Wrong. That is *not* how *all* betteries work. The proposal
> has nothing to d
> |with lead/sulfuric acid batteries.
> The proposal had to do with electric vehicles and for them, Lead
> Acid is still the most economical.
Irrelevant, the proposal includes the invention of new batteries.
> Additionally, the purpose of the electrolyte is to serve as an
> ion
> transport mechanism between the two electrodes. It is the
> electrodes in
> *any* kind battery that carry the charge, the electrolyte in
> *any* kind
> of battery does no charge storage at all and replacing it in a
> depleted
> battery will not serve to recharge that battery.
Incorrect. You did not read enough or i didn't explain enough in my original
p
ost. As a batter discharges, the electrolyte becomes saturated with ions
from
the electrodes. The process will continue until the elctrodes are consumed
*or
* until the electrolyte becomes fully saturated. The proposal is for a battery
in which saturation occurs long before consumption does. In such a case,
repl
acing the electrolyte restores the battery's power. *That* is the proposal,
an
d you can object to it, but you can't make up something that is *not* the
prop
osal and use it as a basis for objection.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
> * QMPro 1.51 * * <- Tribble -*-*-*-*- <- Tribble
> kabob
> --- WM v3.11/94-0125
> * Origin: Grey Matter * Seattle, WA * (206) 528-1941 (1:343/
> 210)
> SEEN-BY: 15/41 300/12 15 3615/50
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: RAPE OF THE PLANET
Date: 13 Jul 94 17:43:00
--------
EID:8881 1ced8d60
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 611128db
REPLY: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 41d75e4f
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> PLANET PLUNDERING AS OLD AS UR, ARCHEOLOGISTS SAY
> By Thomas Maugh II Toronto Star July 2, 1994
> "Theory that people in pre-industrial ages lived in harmony
> with environment is eroded by the facts."
> LOS ANGELES - When Dutch explores landed on Easter Island
> in 1722,
> there was not a single tree.
> Most ecologists assumed the isolated Pacific island, now
> known as
> Rapa Nui, had always been barren. Recent studies, however,
> reveal that
> it once was covered with lush forests that were slashed and
> burned
> when humans moved there about A.D. 500.
> The rape of Rapa Nui, archeologists are now discovering,
> is not
> unique. Whereas environmentalists and historians once
> believed that
> early humans lived in harmony with their environment,
Have the author state who these environmentalists and ecologists were.
True there are popular myths, but in all the serious literature i read
there were plenty of references to the destruction of north american forests
(
now called the Great Plains), the over use of of middle eastern and north
afri
can farmland, livestock promoted erosion in ancient Greece, ect, etc.
> experts
> are beginning to agree, people have pillaged natural
> resources,
> denuded forests and sterilized fields with unwanted salt.
Experts have always agreed, unless you count new age wishful thinkers as
exper
ts.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:46:57
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6308871e
PID: FM 2.02
SS> On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unavoidab
SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they < chose to be hurt.
ss> Please note the words "they <>..." We are all co-creators.
ss> Unless, of course, one's actions would affect only oneself.
Are you forwarding the belief that someone getting raped _chose_ to be raped?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:48:45
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6308871f
REPLY: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb0b4
PID: FM 2.02
LH> are ghosts who are out there just trying to scare
LH> people but they are pretty harmless.
mc> i agree.
I suspect you have had some experiences which would tend to indicate to
you th
at there are, indeed, such things as ghosts. Based upon that assumption,
I wo
uld have to ask whether you believed in ghosts always.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: BASIS
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:38:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 63088721
REPLY: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1cf
PID: FM 2.02
db> Saw your letter in a recent issue of BASIS, about carrying organized
db> skepticism into other areas. I pretty much agree completely. Just
db> thought you'd want to know.
fr> Alas, I have not been getting BASIS since the last time I
fr> updated my subscription. I have this sinking feeling
fr> that BASIS is being sent to the Holland address I sent the
fr> renewal from. The owners of the house are probably reading it
fr> even now!
dp> Does that mean you're back? If so, please call me voice at 602-327-1897.
Nopes. We lost our lease on the house, moved to Zandvort on the Atlantic
for
some months and then I was sent home. Three weeks later, I was sent to
Ohio w
here I am now.
Alas it looks like I shall never be free again. From here I must go to
Korea
or Holland.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Conference
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:59:48
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 63088722
REPLY: 1:125/27 ed26d41b
PID: FM 2.02
CC> Dont you think?
rm> Never on Wednesdays. ;->
We have a "Randroid" here in Ohio... he works for the company and is very
goo
d at programming and related such-forth. Interestingly enough, he gave
us an
account of a flying saucer he saw when he was in college. He left his room
at
his parents house, got a book from the runk of his car, closed the trunk,
and noticed the flying saucer hanging motionless above the trees -- trees
whic
h
were moving in the wind.
A psychologist told him that many people see flying saucers and that it's
not
important. What is important is to press onward and treat it as mundane.
I asked him if he was awake on his bead reading when he got up, went down
to
the car, and got the book. The answer was yes.
I asked him if he went into the house to get his parents and when they came
ou
t, whether the thing was gone. The answer was yes.
I asked him if he got the book out of the trunk before or after he saw the
fly
ing saucer. He thought about it and said, 'after.' He said that he was
so sh
ook up, it was hours before he remembered going to look for the book and
that
he left it in the car.
I pointed out the conflict of his having gotten the book, reached up and
close
d the trunk, only to remember the book and come back hours later to get
the bo
ok a second time.
He expressed his confusion at never having noticed the conflict.
Now he's greatly annoyed and won't look at me. I should have shut
up
.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: David Bloomberg hanging it out in public
Date: 17 Jul 94 23:36:30
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6315bf1b
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 43c40fb6
PID: FM 2.02
DB> Actually, it does. I have seen their type before. "We must allow
DB> all views! Except those which disagree with ours..."
EH> Remember Animal Farm...
db> Ooooh, good comparison!
It was required reading in my High School Daze.
Mr James Lippard drops your name after his article "Sun Goes Down in Flames,"
by the way. It's just a bit funny (to me, any way) because Mr. Lippard
also
thanks David Fasold and John Morris for providing materials and information
as
well. You are listed among good company!
I enjoyed Mr. Lippard's article greatly! There were two points that I had
mis
t reading about in BASIS, SI, GS, or AS. I had no idea that transcripts
of Ja
mmal's previous interview were used later in _defense_ of Jammal himself
in wh
at was believed to be an attack upon his credability by Mr. Larue.
Kee
ping the beliefs and hoaxes straight in mind requires a score card to get
the
full effect. I also didn't know that Balsiger was handing out public stateme
nts like they were pop-corn while Sun's hoax was falling down around their
cla
y feet. The "humanist hidden agenda" comments -- made publically -- kind
of r
emoves any validity of any hint of suggestion that Sun was not biased towards
selling nonsense to feed the want-to-believers.
I had no ideas that the names Jammal used were so transparent. As I recall,
B
ASIS printed the names used (Asholian, indeed! Vladimir Sobitchsky, I dare
sa
y! Allis Buls Hitian! Come now!) yet I didn't catch on to just how shallow
Jammal's hoax was. Sun International must have _really_ wanted to believe
to
miss seeing these not-at-all-subtle hints as they didn't catch on either.
Upon turning the page, I started reading the next article and only realized
after a bit that it was yours! Mr. Larue's follows yet I have not had time
to
cover but a few sentences. I'm glad to see REALL get the plug.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Tad Cook
To: John Powell
Sub: Re: Oil Companies
Date: 12 Jul 94 18:22:10
--------
EID:1dae 1cec92c0
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2e245f19
-=> Quoting John Powell to Dave Halliday <=-
-=> Quoting Dave Halliday to Dr Pepper <=-
DH> I think that people need to have a better idea of what use they have
DH> for their vehicle - why not have two - one gas powered for long
DH> distance trips ( rental? ) and the electric for city commute ( 50 miles
DH> per charge )
JP> Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other (laptop,
JP> cellular phone) batteries have?
That effect is alleged to occur only in nicad batteries, but
in fact the memory effect is a myth. Its a widely believed
myth though.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages on Songs
Date: 13 Jul 94 23:49:09
--------
EID:6af6 1cedbe20
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2e24b945
-=> Quoting Adrian Eng to All <=-
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
Its a myth. There may be messages that you can hear when
playing the song backwards, but there is NO EVIDENCE that
this somehoe enters your consiousness and influences you.
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
AE> BAD for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign
AE> sublimina-ing implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
Not true. Your talking about the DRINK COKE-EAT POPCORN
experiment done in a movie house in the 1950s. It didn't
work.
AE> Also.. turning to music... heavy metal have been found to contain
AE> subliminal messages in them as well.. I myself am not a big heavy metal
AE> fan so I get my info from what others say. There was a Guns and Roses
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
But there is NO EVIDENCE that it DOES anything.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 13 Jul 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:3903 1ced6f40
PID: RA 2.02
MSGID: 1:147/61 53c2c8be
REPLY: 1:343/210 86DCB4C2
TID: FastEcho 1.40 8036
AL;KSJDFLJAKSSSALKS;DJFL;AKJSDF;ASDLKJFALKSJDL;FKJASL;DKJFALKJSD
LKAJLDSJFJASDLKJFAL;JDL;AJS
A]
A
A
A
--- FastEcho 1.40
* Origin: Arrakis BBS: And if you believe that... (405)752-8955 (1:147/61)
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--------
From: Steve Crawford
To: Matt Robins
Sub: Programmed Irrationality
Date: 13 Jul 94 08:52:00
--------
EID:0bd4 1ced4680
MSGID: 1:125/27 ee26d01b
MR> ...Once you succeed in programming a computer to pass for a creationist
MR> in a simple Turing test, the ICR would be forced to sit up and listen.
My computer speaks in tongues whenever my program has a bug. Does
this count?? :-)
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * I had my car's alignment checked...it's chaotic-evil.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Pete Porro
To: Don Allen
Sub: Re: RUSSIA IN SPACE 1/2
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:06:52
--------
EID:27d0 1cee60c0
>> reaching the explosion site; but since that time the Russians, and
>> only the Russians, have studied the area exhaustively.
First of all, Dr. Beter (AKA Peter Beter) most likely doesn't even exist.
Seco
nd the quoted part above is not true. As always some clown writes something
ba
sed loosly on facts, and suddenly it's an amazing new discovery.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
)
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From: Pete Porro
To: Karen Davis
Sub: Re: BELIEVE IT OR NOT.
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:00:42
--------
EID:f1b1 1cee6000
> FR> That's funny. John Denver didn't add this to his list in his
> song about
>> sunshine. }:-}
>
> Makes me sneeze too. I heard that it is indeed a reaction in a
> certain percentage of people.
>
> Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
Yes, John Denver, Barry Manlow, and a whole bunch of others make me sneeze
too
! 8*)
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
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From: Pete Porro
To: John Larkin
Sub: Re: ENCOUNTERS REVIEW
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:16:30
--------
EID:62c9 1cee6200
>TC> I've run into a similar situation on the Rush Limbaugh echo on
>TC> Fidonet. They are about to institute a new rule that the echo
>TC> is only for FANS of Limbaugh who AGREE with him. In other words,
>TC> no one dare question any of his more outrageous lies and
>TC> allegations.
It would ruin the echo. Where else could I watch the socialists and feelgood
e
xtreme liberals make fools out of themselves?
> Start a campaign and get a Rush Windbag Haters Echo created.
And a revisionist history echo? 8*)
Actually I enjoy hearing both sides and watching them fight. Better than
dayti
me TV.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
)
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--------
From: J. Moore
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: Re: Tesla Kooks
Date: 14 Jul 94 10:23:11
--------
EID:3441 1cee52e0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7711c1da
TC>Check out the new issue of SKEPTICAL INQUIRER. Great article
TC>on Tesla, and how there is now a cult which celebrates him.
TC>What follows is a post from the Electronics echo about an
TC>upcoming meeting of the Tesla Society. I noticed some
TC>pretty "amazing" sessions that are scheduled:
SS> Westinghouse Corp., I believe, got rich off Tesla's "kooky" ideas.
Nobody got rich off Tesla's KOOKY ideas -- his wacko power broadcasters,
etc. His induction stuff, motors and power stations, were hardly kooky
and worked well, but he couldn't seem to get away from his kooky stuff,
none of which worked -- that's why he managed to die broke, in spite of
massive amounts of money coming in to him from the one really clever
thing he did: induction power technology. He was a dilettant who seemed
unable to follow through on things he COULD'VE done, and for which he is
often incorrectly given credit, like the radio. In reality, he had
gotten together most of what he would've needed to do a pre-Marconi
radio, but then just dropped it to go do something flaky instead. He
coulda been a contender, but wound up a kook. Too bad.
* Q-Blue 1.0
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Tom Bomhower
To: Mark Bellis
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 14 Jul 94 22:27:11
--------
EID:b280 1ceeb360
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7716a0ae
MB> Schizophrenia "A political term"? - I think schizophrenia is
MB>generally recognized as an brain disorder. Although not understood
MB>perfectly (few things are) there are a class of mental disorders with
MB>similar symptoms that is called 'Schizophrenia'.
MB> I don't even think Szasz would still believe what he wrote in
MB>"The Myth of Mental Illness" today.
I haven't read The Myth ... so I don't know what that or its author has
to do with the subject.
The flu and the cold have similar symptoms, so much so that people
insist on (and physicians give them, to be rid of them) the same
ineffective prescription drugs for both. However, the causes of each
are well known, unlike autism and schizophrenia which are simply
round file catch all terms that let people speak authoritatively
about nothing much in particular.
Every six months someone else hoping for a Nobel prize announces that
they have discovered the cause of schizophrenia in some genetic sequence
or another. But nothing ever comes of it, except that support groups for
relatives of schizophrenics go into Rolodex frenzy mode in the attempt
to get spokespersons on cable tv, where they spout the essentially
Fascist party line that everyone should be ashamed of themselves for
thinking that it might have been caused by mothers, or families, or
anything social or digital in dimensions, now that it has been proved
that it is entirely caused by a genetic accident in analog, physical
dimensions.
Speaking of tv, how about them segments you see on happy talk magazine
format shows about Idiot Savants, anyway? They invariably refer to the
subjects, in the promo blurbs and during the show itself, as "Savants".
When it is impossible to call Haitian generals idiots on tv, due to the
potential for them to wind up as your neighbours in the tony fenced and
guarded burb you afford on your tv producer's salary, once they are
eventually ousted, then it is unthinkable to call some little kid who
can play Chopin but can't tie his shoelaces an Idiot anything, even if
it is a proper medical or psychology term and only makes sense as a
juxtapositioning of opposites.
T. Bomhower
---
* DeLuxe* 1.25 #898sa * copyright 1994, T. Bomhower
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 14 Jul 94 20:22:00
--------
EID:5462 1ceea2c0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6190cebe
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "ASTRONOMY"
* Originally by Patrick Thibault
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 20:08
I predict the comet will miss Jupiter! Any takers?
--- FMail 0.96
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Incoming Light Source.
Date: 15 Jul 94 09:04:02
--------
EID:9b85 1cef4880
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6208f2c2
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Wayne Davis
* Originally dated 13 Jul 1994, 8:20
> WB> > Evidently I misunderstood your previous posts about an "approaching
> WB> > light source".
> WB>Your were correct. What threw you off was what you are accepting as
thei
r
> WB>analysis of this. This source is being watched closely for a reason
and
> not
> WB>one they give. Which IMO is bogis and incorrect. THe other two
> possibilities
> WB>are: The approaching Photon Cloud. The possible Bright Marduk in it's
> return
> WB>regards Walter
> Ok...
(WB) Hi Wayne: Things coming in to Orvotron now indicate the Jupiter thing
is
going to send some shock waves into Everything! Glenda will post these channel
ings in Channels from our Ashtar connection via Australia. Read these and
cont
emplate the seriousness of what the command is telling us. In my capacity
in w
hat I agreed to do here, it appears my part is nearing it's completion time
of
my agreed upon mission in assisting this planet. Solinus and I were both
spec
ulating on where things are at and how this will effect everyone on the
planet
, and where this will escalate in the now eminent changes all of you will
expe
rience. Experience here being the key because very few will understand
things
coming till a certain amount of change radically delivers the necessary
"SHO
CK WAVE" to understanding what we were sharing is important to everyone
concer
ned. It was interesting hearing from those down under in Australia that
they
are experiencing the same things as we are. To tell the truth we are BORED
wit
h the human condition we are constantly being confronted with. It was great
he
aring we aren't alone. This stated not because anyone is at fault, but we
had
hoped for certain things concerning attitude would get into areas of becoming
more upbeat in accepting certain stressed points inabling your next experience
to take on a more positive resolve based on LOVE of what you were going
to ex
perience versus fear as your basic approach to change. All of you are really
i
nto it now aware or not. Maybe this was needed all along getting our input
on
a more motivated level versus the old resolve that constantly popped up
and re
peated itself. That got boring to the point the question was
asked to our reason for even continuing. But we are still here aren't we?
So
from here on out folks hold onto your hats as things take a new turn.
regards Walter
--- FMail 0.96
* Origin: Bartoo.sys found. Engage bullshit detector? (Yes/Fnord!) (1:3623/18
)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: George Donnellan
Sub: RULES-PLEASE READ!
Date: 15 Jul 94 14:29:00
--------
EID:70c8 1cef73a0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 620e7468
PID: FM 2.02
> in fact its become a very boring echo and I dont believe it
> will improve.
> Have a closer look at the rules you posted,as a source of
> information,not
> as something to ridicule.
> geo.
Considering the source (you), George, I only do once.
G'day
--- FMail 0.96
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Warning
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:00:00
--------
EID:1782 1cef7800
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 620eefa8
PID: FM 2.02
:-) :-))
Not a bad intepretation of reality.
=================================================================
* Forwarded from "POLITICS_3623"
* Originally by Dana Thomas
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 2 Jul 1994, 15:21
(AP) WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Department of Health and Human
Services secretary Donna Shalala, in concert with Surgeon General
Jocelyn Elders, released the results of a year-long study which
concludes that repeated blows to the head with a baseball bat will cause
brain damage. "We've suspected this for a long time," Ms. Elders said,
"but wanted to wait until our research was completed before we went
public."
Ms. Elders also announced that Attorney General Janet Reno would
personally steer an investigation into nationally known baseball bat
manufacturer Louisville Slugger. "Evidence suggests that the Louisville
Slugger Corp. knew for quite some time about the danger of their
product, but continued to market it. We need to band together as a
people concerned with the welfare of our children, and either ban or
regulate these instruments of destruction."
Fresh on the heels of this new study, Hillary Clinton lobbied
for a %200 tax on baseball bats to help finance health care reform.
"It's clear that injuries received from baseball bats create an undue
strain on health care availability, and something should be done." Bill
Clinton, supporting the First Lady from aside the podium, was asked how
his administration would deal with the problem of renegade baseball bat
owners. "I'm not out to take away the right of law abiding citizens to
own baseball bats," the President said, "but clearly there is no
sporting use for the 'assault bats' that we've been seeing on the
streets lately. These lethal killers must be outlawed." Experts
predict that five day waiting periods and background checks will be in
place shortly. White House aids had no explanation for the strange
inflamation on the President's forehead that, when examined more
closely, turned out to be a reverse imprint of the Louisville Slugger
logo.
[END OF RELEASE]
---
QMPro 1.0 29-1423 ... I have seen the truth and it makes no sense...
--- FMail 0.96
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--------
From: Robert Jackson
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Bodily molecule recycl
Date: 14 Jul 94 23:43:14
--------
EID:2622 1ceebd60
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e27ad17
Moenius quoth Jacksonius upon dyscourse of Re: Bodily molecule recycl this
12
Jul 94 00:03:53
RJ> Since I'm new here, is playing devil's advocate applicable as
RJ> a form of skepticism? By raising doubts about someone's reason
RJ> for doubting, will that help achieve a goal?
RM> Playiung devil's advocate is playing devil's advocate. Skepticism is
RM> critical inquiry into testable fringe-science claims of fact.
To forward critical inquiry, mustn't one advance a negative
position in light of presented evidence until proof or logic
creates a valid construct? Your reply is tautolgical.
RJ> Suppose you could inform me on the working definition of skepticism
RJ> here: are valid models to be proposed, or is it to solely
RJ> invalidate spurious ones?
RM> Please see above, plus (more fundamentally) moderator Jackson
RM> Harding's guidelines, and skeptics' journals such as CSICOP's
RM> _Skeptical Inquirer_.
A short answer like yes on one, no on two, or vice-versa would've
sufficed for my initial question. Why cross-refer me? Or are
you just non-informing me?
... Today, we are in search of the mysterious Walking Tree of Dahomei.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword*Covington,LA*(504)867-9701*V32B,V42B,VFC (1:390/87)
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--------
From: Robert Jackson
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 15 Jul 94 00:50:24
--------
EID:a919 1cef0640
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 2e27ad1e
Moenius quoth Marvichius upon dyscourse of Re: Blackmore, 2/2 this 12 Jul
94
23:56:07
LM> What does being "right" or "wrong" have to do with being a skeptic?
LM> You are supposed to gather proof either for or against, until a
LM> consensus of trained and educated people agree that an idea is
LM> valid or invalid. Is this not so?
RM> "You" can do anything "your" little heart desires. However,
RM> skepticism has no obvious connection with _ideas_ being "valid or
RM> invalid" (whatever that means), nor with "proof" (whatever you mean
by
RM> that). Skeptics are fundamentally concerned with particular claims of
RM> fringe-science fact. Get it?
So, if someone says they can make cold fusion with a Mason jar,
a roll of speaker wire, two paper clips, and some duct tape, a
skeptic is just interested in seeing such an experiment done?
Not whether fusion CAN be achieved, or is a sham, but just that
they see it? Skepticism is solely the activity of observation,
then? See, I got a non-answer when I asked before. Therefore,
might I assume that skepticism may be treated as an auxiliary
to a philosophy such as science, much like epistemology is
auxiliary to metaphysics?
... I tried surrealism but the Jell-O kept enervating magnanimously.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword*Covington,LA*(504)867-9701*V32B,V42B,VFC (1:390/87)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: All
Sub: I_UFO
Date: 11 Jul 94 10:00:01
--------
EID:155f 1ceb5000
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e2118cc
Hello All!
Once again, the state of play in I_UFO has nothing to do with what we
want to discuss here. Apart from this echo being more open minded and a
welco
me refuge from their moderating there is nothing more to be said. Further
dis
cussion of their antics are a waste of bandwidth.
We return to our normally scheduled programming.
Bye for now,
Jackson
Moderator
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
* Origin: Monster seeks female companion. Loch Ness, Scotland (3:800/857)
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From: Terry Smith
To: Mike Lowry
Sub: Re: GHOSTS
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:48:39
--------
EID:f5e0 1cea8600
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e200c068
REPLY: 3:633/252@Fidonet 73a26fca
On <08 Jul 1994 > Mike Lowry wrote to Pete Porro:
ML> Hi Pete,
ML> Sorry I should have explained that I am a professional
ML> Clairvoyant.
Really? In which Australian state is this form of theft legal - or are you
an
entertainer?
Terry Smith
--- timEd-B11
* Origin: Point Taken. (3:800/846.23)
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--------
From: Terence Nichols
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: HOW DO UFO'S TRAVEL?
Date: 06 Jul 94 21:57:02
--------
EID:af72 1ce6af20
MSGID: 3:713/817.2 2e1b7d0f
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 580d9ebe
* Whilst sheltering from the midday sun.
* Fredric Rice wrote to Adrian Eng thus :
G'Day Fredric,
FR> It isn't so bad. We can accelerate at one gravity to Alpha Centuri,
FR> decellerate at one gravity at mid point, and arive in orbit about the
FR> star in something like 180 years, as I recall.
FR> Um, should I break out my calculator?
I've been sitting on the side for a while and have finally become
frustrated at what hasn't been stated so for everyones reference
look at the following table. It comes from Meyer's "Handbook on Space".
It will also save Fred buying new batteries for his calculator. Funnily
enough, I used my *calculator* for typing these notes ;-)
If a space ship constantly accelerates at 1G (9.81m/sec*sec) and then
applies a constant deceleration of 1G from the half way point. The
following time dilations would take effect.
Years Years
for for
Cosmonauts Earth Inhabitants
Ship Earth
Time Time
--------- -----------------
1 1.0
2 2.1
5 6.5
10 24
15 80
20 270
25 910
30 3100
40 36000
45 121000
50 420000
You may ask why use the term *Cosmonauts* ? I reply that this is the
pollitically correct terminology.
YOUR SHOUT
From THE DESERT WA (Terry Nichols)
FidoNet 3:713/817.2
AmigaNet 41:200/817.2
HsaNet 14:101/3.2
GlobleNet 54:6105/817.2
WorldNet 61:9600/410.2
... Reality is a dream you can feel.
--- Spot 1.2d #760
* Origin: Spinne Developments Australia (3:713/817.2@FidoNet)
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--------
From: Terence Nichols
To: Chris Cox
Sub: Time
Date: 06 Jul 94 22:11:24
--------
EID:1497 1ce6b160
MSGID: 3:713/817.2 2e1b806c
* Whilst sheltering from the midday sun.
* Chris Cox wrote to All thus :
G'Day Chris,
CC> This has been on my mind recently and I cannot come to a conclusion.
CC> What EXACTLY is time?
Dont you KNOW !!!?? Oh, well. I'll tell you, "Time is relative." ;-)
an
d you may quote me on that.
time (n)
1. A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible
suc
cession.
2. An interval seperating two points on this continuum, measured essentially
i
n terms of occurrences or a regularly recurring event.
There are 5 more points associated with the noun *Time* in the Webster's
New D
ictionary of the English Language.
YOUR SHOUT
From THE DESERT WA (Terry Nichols)
FidoNet 3:713/817.2
AmigaNet 41:200/817.2
HsaNet 14:101/3.2
GlobleNet 54:6105/817.2
WorldNet 61:9600/410.2
... The Jury - A group chosen to decide who has the best lawyer.
--- Spot 1.2d #760
* Origin: Spinne Developments Australia (3:713/817.2@FidoNet)
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--------
From: Terence Nichols
To: Pete Porro
Sub: GHOSTS
Date: 06 Jul 94 23:03:36
--------
EID:bea8 1ce6b860
MSGID: 3:713/817.2 2e1b8ca9
* Whilst sheltering from the midday sun.
* Pete Porro wrote to Paul Feonic thus :
G'Day Pete,
PP> memories. I suggest hypnotic regression for more proof that these
PP> reptiles DO exist.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Boy O Boy, I knew that I couldnt trust my biology teacher. She told me that
fr
ogs were amphibians.
You ask us to believe an hypothosis without proof.
YOUR SHOUT
From THE DESERT WA (Terry Nichols)
FidoNet 3:713/817.2
AmigaNet 41:200/817.2
HsaNet 14:101/3.2
GlobleNet 54:6105/817.2
WorldNet 61:9600/410.2
... Stop licking your bowl and Flush it like everyone else!
--- Spot 1.2d #760
* Origin: Pointing From AmiOZ BBS (02) 8381620 (3:713/817.2@FidoNet)
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--------
From: John Molloy
To: Matt Nathan
Sub: Re: SNEEZE AT LIGHT
Date: 07 Jul 94 13:42:00
--------
EID:29fc 1ce76d40
Said Matt Nathan to Tim Epstein. Do you hear what I hear?
TE> Anyway, 1 in 50 is quite a significant number, giving a
TE> high statistical likelihood that at least one person reading
TE> this should be affected. If you are, please respond. I'd like
TE> to hear about a case of this from the "horse's mouth" as such.
MN> I sneeze when I look up at the bright sky. I just now (3 AM) made
MN> myself sneeze by looking directly at a light bulb, so it's not just
MN> sunlight that does this. I used to wonder why the sun DIDN'T make other
MN> people sneeze. As far as I know, I'm the only one in my family that
MN> this happens to.
There are a lot of nerves in the average head. Some of them pass close
to others. In some people, inappropriate connections happen by accident
(another example of this is "jaw-winking" which happens when some motor
nerve connections get stuffed up. These people wink as they chew. This
can be quite embarrassing.
MN> I also get "snow-blindness" easily. That's when it
MN> seems so bright that one's eyes water and squint and one can't see
MN> easily. It doesn't have to be snowing. The beach will do this to me
MN> too. I always theorized that it was because my pupils couldn't close
MN> tightly enough, but I don't know if this is really true.
I would think it's more likely to be at the retinal layer, that is, your
retina adapts to far bigger light changes than your pupil can. Pupil
diameters vary from about 1mm to about 9mm. The area can therefore range
over about an 81X range. Natural light can vary over a range of about 10
billion times, between starlight with no moon to sunlight on snow.
MN>I'm an
MN> ectomorph, so my nervous system is extra sensitive anyway. I feel
MN> earthquakes most people don't notice (verified by the news).
MN> Medications, even herb tea affects me about twice as strongly as it
MN> does normal folks. I can get high just by eating a good meal!
MN> Matt Nathan
What's your night vision like? How long does this "white out" effect
last?
John.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TPCB V0.4b
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--------
From: Chris Lawson
To: Jeff Russell
Sub: Re: Wet Combustion Proven
Date: 11 Jul 94 01:44:05
--------
EID:f7f6 1ceb0d80
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 3:635/560.0 2e20dc26
JS> I am in the process of PATENTING MY INVENTION and want to hear from
JS> any INVESTORS who want to make a lot of money from this new fuel
JS> source. I have calculated that there is enough energy in ONE SMALL
JS> LAKE to fuel a town for fifty years! I will not listen to any of the
JS> RICH OIL COMPANIES who want to stifle my invention - my idea is for
JS> the WORLD!
JS> Thank you.
JR> The patent for stupidity was awarded some time back, sorry.
Not so! You can't patent any invention that has already been in common use.
regards,
Chris
--- FMail/386 0.98a
* Origin: My star sign is Ophiuchus -(Anti-Matter BBS +613-752-1171) (3:635/5
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: George Donnellan
Sub: CSICOP CONVENTION ARTICLE
Date: 08 Jul 94 17:46:40
--------
EID:c944 1ce88dc0
> "It's that the world can ill afford such scientific illiteracy."
> Surveys indicate 25 percent to 50 percent of adult U.S. citizens
> "don't know the Earth goes around the sun once a year," Sagan said.
GD> YES! YES! I believe ! I believe it! Finally,something on this echo
GD> that I can wholeheartedly believe. Only in America!
It would actually be quite interesting to see a rigorous measurement of
that stuff in other countrys which think they do it a lot better. Might
get a hell of a shock |-)
And you would have to ask, is that specific knowledge really that useful
to the general public anyway ? Ditto for the older stuff like the
sequence of British kings etc.
Clearly you want people to understand the fundamentals of science etc,
but how the hell you actually work out what is desirable, damned if I
know.
Obviously it would be extremely desirable to have everyone leave school
with the capability of seeing a segment on 60 minutes where a woman says
'I just "know" that my husband died of a brain tumor because the mobile
phone caused it' and reject it for the crap it is, but how the hell you
do that is another matter entirely. I'm not even convinced its possible
to get the bulk of the public actually understand stuff at that level.
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: DREAM SOLUTIONS
Date: 08 Jul 94 17:53:42
--------
EID:bd99 1ce88ea0
SS> heard that Elias Howe, inventor of the sewing machine, resolved his
SS> problem surrounding the needle via a dream.
MH> Maybe we have a good example of an urban legend ?
MH> I do know, as a student, that I used to find solutions to a lot of
MH> math problems on waking in the morning. I was a mature aged student.
MH> I think that , as my brain was probably in an alpha pattern at that
MH> time, I was able to think more clearly.
I dont think its got anything to do with alpha patterns, just that the
mental effectiveness of most people is rather less than uniform thru the
waking hours. Some people are just more effective in the morning, others
are quite fuddled early, do much better late at night. You dont need
exotic explanations like alpha patterns.
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 08 Jul 94 17:58:44
--------
EID:2877 1ce88f40
> No individual who employs scientific method would suggest that the
> fact of evolution (it's not capitalized) is subject to debate -- it
> is an immutable fact which is not subject to belief or disbelief just
> as the immutable fact of gravity is not subject to debate. The
> theories, however, designed to describe the observed facts _are_
> subject to debate.
PH> Extremely well put! I've even captured that for memory and will use
PH> it in my next fundo-skeptic upheaval about evolution; and theories in
PH> general.
MH> After reading this echo and seeing the problems you have with
MH> "fundos" I am so glad that our school science curricula are free from
MH> this kind of interference.
It isnt actually. There were considerable problems with it in Queensland
when Joh was the premier and the fundys were in a position of power on
stuff like the school curriculum.
And even in other states there is a hell of a problem with science
students believing in creationism at the start of their tertiary
education too. Presumably its a combination of their religious
background and the fundamentals of evolution being quite hard to believe
thats a problem for many.
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 08 Jul 94 18:01:46
--------
EID:2877 1ce89020
AL> proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are descended from apes.
AL> I don't want a flame war, I just want to know if anyone knows if
AL> this is true. No opinions, just plain fact.
MH> We are not descended from apes. They are still here. Apes and Homo
MH> sapiens have a common ancestor.
Thats arguable actually. Until you know the full sequence, it isnt
possible to say that absolutely. The coexistence of both forms today
doesnt prove a damned thing. There is a real sense in which the
higher apes and humans are all scattered closely together in the
evolutionary tree.
It is clear that say cats and dogs really do just share a common
ancestor, but thats less clear in the ape/human area.
--- PQWK202
* Origin: afswlw rjfilepwq (3:711/934.2)
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: FRINGE SCIENCE?
Date: 08 Jul 94 20:01:48
--------
EID:4c9b 1ce8a020
DB> "3" is at the antipodes, the other side of the planet, the place
DB> where they have to hang on by their fingernails to keep from falling
DB> off, the place where they tend to get all sorts of stuff backwards or
DB> upside down, where the globe makes contact with the back of the
DB> turtle. and where the hand sign that churchill invented for
DB> "victory," when turned around, has acquired a particularly lewd
DB> meaning, which explains why george bush was greeted with such an
DB> uproar when he gave what he thought was the victory sign. poor
DB> george drives down the street in his limo, signalling "let's F***" to
DB> the whole population of "3".
MH> Where citizens need licenses for guns
Depends on the state.
MH> Where a school curriculum is not altered by religious nuts
Ditto.
MH> Where our beaches are clean and uncrowded
Depends on the beach.
MH> Where the best surfers come from
Arguable.
MH> Where wind surfers were invented
MH> how about that ?
Pity you got most of them wrong |-)
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Stewart Draper
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 09 Jul 94 21:17:06
--------
EID:31b1 1ce9aa20
MSGID: 3:713/805@FidoNet 73a6a88e
I am surprised you reply to my messages, as I don't usually reply to y
ours. See Mr Speed you may know much in your field, but as far as knowledge
i
n the area in which I refer you lack knowledge entirely. I must admit though
my tactic in the science echo was to raise hackles by using emotive strains
in
my writing. I am most interested in the phycological impact some statements
and topics emote in people; I have found through observation that I did
indeed
succeed in getting to the bottom of peoples barrels of monkeys in the science
echo. You see you are not alien to the adverse emotional impact that is
felt
when you own belief systems are attacked. Perhaps you had the insight to
perc
eive that your own belief system or fundamental founding in reality is on
very
shakey ground. I have noticed this, when you did reply so in such authoritar
ian tones.
It is fairly much a rule that those who most ardently and stridently a
ver to their knowledge of some topic actually underneath it all lack certainty
. Here you are found to be on very shakey ground.
I say again Mr Speed you are ignorant and lack knowlege. YOu lack ins
ight and awareness of those things I did refer to. You know much in some
area
s; but in others you are a complete ignoramous.
--- Ezycom V1.02 03fa004b
* Origin: Morning Star BBS +61-2-833-1848 (3:713/805)
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--------
From: Stewart Draper
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 09 Jul 94 21:33:08
--------
EID:31b1 1ce9ac20
MSGID: 3:713/805@FidoNet 73a6b090
I just read a bit of your scribble and you mentioned coat-tailing. I a
ssure you that I was not seeking to argue with you, I was interested in
the ge
neral reaction my statements would bring. I got back what I expected. As
for
coat-tailing, don't think for a moment that I was seeking to convert you
or ot
her to some strange far-out philosophy; I wouldn't bother attempting this.
Yo
u see each to his own, I respect that. You seem to think you know the ins
and
outs of life, fair enough. Don't think that I was attempting to argue you
do
wn or something; I was just enjoying mucking around with peoples consideration
s on science, religion and education. I found it most amusing to hear the
rea
ctions. Some were most displeased. You were of course always correct in
your
opinions and was of course dealing with a silly nit-twit like myself who
didn'
t have a clue about what real science was about. Please keep to your opinion,
I have no problem with it. Whether you are wrong or right makes no differenc
e to me. I know what I know. Nice talking with a materialistic person
and ge
tting to the bottom of the hill of beans that your sitting on. It's humorous
what people are writing about me they seem to have a great ambition to totally
trash whatever I said; good for them, so be it. Mr Speed there will come
a t
ime in your life when the evidence for UFO's and OOBE, reincarnation and
other
strange phenomena of that ilk will shake you little world apart. Please
inves
tigate what I have said with an open-mind if you are at all interested in
real
ity and the truth in life. I know I am right, and I know that you are wrong.
Please don't reply, I have heard it before too many times!
--- Ezycom V1.02 03fa004b
* Origin: Morning Star BBS +61-2-833-1848 (3:713/805)
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--------
From: Gary Quinton
To: Rod Speed
Sub: ritual mutilation
Date: 09 Jul 94 16:00:14
--------
EID:657e 1ce98000
MSGID: 3:633/259.0 2e1ec98e
TS> uses it's tail for a great deal of communication, including
TS> threat/submission display, greeting, warning ect., it most certainly
TS> does constitute maiming, and can lead to crippling -
RS> Crap. The breeds that have docked tails manage fine, regardless of
RS> this stuff about the use of tails. Essentially the use of tails is just
RS> one part of dog communication and they managed without it.
Hey! just like the tolerant attitude of the Ellen James society from
the World According to Garp. Lets all cut our tongues out! We can use
our hands to communicate...
Although personally, a little mutilation of animals is not a bad thing
if practiced in excess...
GARYQ 8*)
... Penguin: The headwaiter of the Antarctic.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: A Tad Data, +61-3-801-6848, 2 Gigs, 14.4k, 24 hrs. (3:633/259)
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--------
From: Andrew Lee
To: Pete Porro
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 04 Jul 94 11:29:00
--------
EID:11b7 1ce45ba0
TID: IMAIL 1.50b+ BS4
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 3:632/552.0 2e21ab6b
-=> Quoting Pete Porro to Andrew Lee <=-
PP> Now if your friend can tell you who the "They" is or where "They"
PP> found this missing link, it would be helpful. I do keep in touch with
PP> anthropology types, and this would have been big news. Maybe he thinks
PP> Lucy or the new male find, prove something, but not what your friend
PP> claims.
Got it in one! Yep, I do recall the name Lucy being mentioned. There was
apparently an article in Time magazine which stated that this was the
missing link. So I can disprove his claim? Or simply state that it isn't
enough in the way of evidence to substantiate his claim. (That we are
descended from apes.) Hmmm, thanks a lot. But then again, he will probably
never accept this, he read Chariots of the Gods, and is firmly entrenched
in the belief that UFO's and aliens exist. And he calls a belief in God
stupid! Oh well...
L8r
-Andrew
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Cloud Nine, Melbourne, Australia. +61-3-803-6954 (3:632/552)
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--------
From: Sue James
To: TERRY SMITH
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 15:16:00
--------
EID:62b8 1ceb7a00
Hi Terry,
Just thought I'd butt in here ... 8-)
TS>well suited to finding what is false. It involves not accepting assertation
s
TS>as factual without supportive evidence.
A very good thing too - for many situations or phenomena. But surely it
can't be applied to everything? Is there no room anywhere in life for
things like belief, leap of faith, or for all those multitude of more
things in heaven and earth than we dream of in our philosophy?
(Apologies to Will there for a mangled misquotation! 8-) )
TS>A good example of this would be the [ex] ubiquitous belief that insanity
an
d
TS>disease are caused by evil spirits, the world was created in seven days
and
TS>you sail out far enough, you will fall of the edge of the world.
I would never argue that challenges to popularly held beliefs are wrong
- this is healthy and can lead to new knowledge or awareness. But I do
not accept that there is a scientific and provable answer to everything.
Certainly not at our current stage of evolutionary development anyway.
TS>If only critical analysis and emperic assessment _were_ 'mainstream'.
I don
'
TS>see that waffling about 'alien visitations', 'psychic powers' 'astrological
TS>predictions' and telekinesis make the world 'more understandable'. They
TS>usually seem intended to bilk the gullible out of hard cash.
Whew! Your value judgments are showing a bit there! ;-) The word
"waffling" gives you away. Not all discussions etc on these things are
"waffle", and they certainly can add a dimension to our understanding of
the world. Not "scientific" understanding, granted. But there can also
be other levels at which we make sense of this life we live! 8-) I agree
that there are charlatans and avaricious souls who make profit out of
others. But you are judging the whole field by the actions of these
people - a generalisation you have not supported with sufficient
evidence IMHO. [big grin]
TS>This in an extraordinary arrogant and presumtuous conclusion Stewart.
I am
TS>quite aware, when viewing a rainbow, that the phenomenon is caused by
TS>different energy states of electromagnetic waves being refracted at a
ERK!! One may certainly know the scientific facts, but if they are your
predominent awareness when looking at a rainbow, methinks you are
missing out on something in life, my friend. Surely this analytical
approach is not your customary way of viewing *all* of life's
pleasures? The mind boggles! ;-)
TS>different rate. Am I to take it you believe it would be more colourful
if I
TS>thought it was specifically placed there by some mythical Mid-eastern
war-g
o
TS>to honour a 'contract'?
Ah no, but isn't there some teeny-tiny part of you that responds with
childlike wonder to the wealth of mythology and rich tapestry of human
beliefs over the centuries? I am not suggesting you *believe*, any more
than I do, in that mid-eastern war god. But parable and story have been
humankind's way of teaching, explaining and framing our world since time
out of mind. Adding all this *to* our scientific knowledge, rather than
dismissing it all as claptrap IMHO adds a depth and richness to our
understanding of life.
TS>and critically examining it. This _is_ the proven method of assessing
TS>scientific truth - as a biologist, or a physcology student, I have to
do
TS>exactly the same thing for any claims I make in that field. If you are
TS>following this echo, you would have observed that has already happened.
I
Oh oh .. have I plunged in with totally inappropriate comments?
Rereading this part leaves me feeling that I may have been out of
context, or even out if line ... 8-( Please let me know if I have
misunderstood your main contentions here.
Cheers,
Sue 8-)
OLX 2.1 TD On a clear disk you can seek forever.
--- EzyQwk V1.10g004fa001b
* Origin: Atropos (3:632/334)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Andrew Lee
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 14 Jul 94 08:39:02
--------
EID:9dab 1cee44e0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e24fbce
REPLY: 3:632/552.0 2e21ab6b
Hello Andrew!
Monday July 04 1994, Andrew Lee writes to Pete Porro:
AL> Got it in one! Yep, I do recall the name Lucy being mentioned.
LUCY!!! Lucy is the affectionate name give to what was then the oldest
known
hominid fossil. She was found by the Leakey's in the Great Rift Valley
in the
70's or 80's. Around 2,000,000 years old, and still not the common pongid-ho
minid ancestor. And a very very long way from current news in hominid fossils
.
AL> missing link. So I can disprove his claim? Or simply state that it
isn't
AL> enough in the way of evidence to substantiate his claim. (That we are
AL> descended from apes.)
We are NOT descended from apes. Apes (pongids) and humans (hominids) have
a c
ommon ancestor. See previous message on how some see division of pongid
and h
ominid lines as nothing more than human arrogance, mostly derived from 19th
Ce
ntury thinking. Some consider that man IS an ape.
Bye for now,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
* Origin: Reincarnation convention. July 7-12, 2104 (3:800/857)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 14 Jul 94 08:51:03
--------
EID:641c 1cee4660
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e24fd75
REPLY: 3:713/805@FidoNet 73a6a88e
Hello Stewart!
In a msg of Saturday July 09 1994, Stewart Draper mumbled about Skeptical
of s
keptics
to Rod Speed:
SD> I am surprised you reply to my messages, as I don't usually
reply
SD> to yours. See Mr Speed you may know much in your field, but as far
as
SD> knowledge in the area in which I refer you lack knowledge entirely.
etc etc etc. We don't do ad hominem in here, please refrain. Anyone who
post
ed as you did in an echo created by skeptics and populated mostly by skeptics
and did not expect the sort of replies you got is either very stupid or
very n
aive. Some would even assume that you posted in the manner you did to draw
exa
ctly the sort of response you got. It was entirely predictable.
Please confine your future posts to discussion of matters of fringe science
or
fringe medicine.
TTFN,
Jackson
Moderator
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
* Origin: I'll only read your tea leaves if their Twinning's (3:800/857)
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 14 Jul 94 08:56:04
--------
EID:e8f4 1cee4700
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e24ffc2
REPLY: 3:713/805@FidoNet 73a6b090
Hello Stewart!
Saturday July 09 1994, Stewart Draper writes to Rod Speed:
SD> ambition to totally trash whatever I said; good for them, so be it.
Mr
SD> Speed there will come a time in your life when the evidence for UFO's
and
SD> OOBE, reincarnation and other strange phenomena of that ilk will shake
yo
u
SD> little world apart. Please investigate what I have said with an open-mind
SD> if you are at all interested in reality and the truth in life.
BUT that's exactly what this echo is all about, examining such things with
an
open mind. Now as for UFO's and OOBE's please provide us with evidence,
which
can then be examined critically, and subjected to Occam's Razor (Entia praete
r necessitatem non sunt multiplicanda). Tennet One: Those making extraordinar
y claims need to provide extraordinary evidence. Not heresay, not anecdotal
a
ccounts, not "I heard from a man who knew this bloke who'd spoken to a women
w
ho had a friend who.......", no non sequiters invoking Grand Conspiracy
Theori
es ("and the Government will kill me if I tell you all I know"). We've
seen a
ll these before too many times.
UFO's: expect to have a hard time.
OOBE's: I for one, as a practicing physician, have no problem in believing
tha
t this is a real phenomenon. It also has a number of plausible explanations.
Bye for now,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
* Origin: Monster seeks female companion. Loch Ness, Scotland (3:800/857)
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--------
From: Tim Epstein
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Sneezing in Sunlight
Date: 10 Jul 94 21:14:08
--------
EID:deac 1ceaa9c0
MSGID: 3:635/526.2 5f945d1f
> AREA:SKEPTIC
> Re: Believe it or not.
> Sneezing in the sunlight: I sent a L O N G reply about it; did you get
it?
No I didn't David. Looks like it didn't make it to Australia. I'm very interes
ted in your comments. Would you mind resending it if you still have it?
Many thanks,
Tim
--- FMail/386 0.98a
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--------
From: Tim Epstein
To: Ed Blackman
Sub: Matches
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:04:00
--------
EID:aa76 1ceb9080
MSGID: 3:635/526 759211b6
REPLY: 3:635/526.2 5f945d1c
G'day Ed,
Sorry for the long delay.
> TE> completely covered. I've tried this. In every case, if I drop
> 111TE> matches into a pile, I cannot count every match, even by
> slowing
> TE> counting every exposed match one by one, and placing a drop of
> TE> dye of each match as it is counted without disturbing the pile.
>
> TE> Therefore, no matter how incredible the brain, such a task is
> TE> impossible. I'd appreciate any comments on how to resolve this
> TE> apparant paradox.
>
> A question, Tim: From how high and onto what surface did you drop
> the
> matches? I took a box of matches and performed several drops onto
> different surfaces around my house, and from different heights over
> each
> surface. The only I got a pile that obscured matches from view is
> when
> I dumped them out six inches above some deep shag carpet. Dropping
> the
> matches from 3 feet over any of the surfaces I tried, even the deep
> shag, produced enough of a spread that all matches were visible.
I should mention that it was a large box of matches, dropped onto a
hard tile floor, from about table height (2-3 feet). Its not so much
a case of not all matches being visible, but being able to accuratly
count every match. The purpose of marking each match as I counted it
was an attempt to aid accuracy by avoiding missing a match or
counting one twice. However, no matter how carefully I looked, I was
unable to figure out which match the exposed opposite ends of lower
matches belonged to.
Regards,
Tim
--- FMail/386 0.98+
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--------
From: Lewin Edwards
To: Terry Smith
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:07:16
--------
EID:6d91 1ceba8e0
MSGID: 3:634/396 2e21ed8c
REPLY: 3:800/846.23 e1b2d222
#undef REALITY
TS> and disease are caused by evil spirits, the world was created in seven
TS> days and if you sail out far enough, you will fall of the edge of the
TS> world.
Not so far off the truth, only a little bent. As we all know, you just have
to
sail FAST enough as well and you sure will fall off the edge of the world.
And what's the difference (besides a little pronunciation difference) between
referring to things as "evil spirits" or "bacteria" (or whatever) ? Just
a wor
d.
-- Lewin A.R.W. Edwards (deceased)
#define REALITY
--- GoldED 2.41+
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: FRINGE SCIENCE?
Date: 11 Jul 94 13:59:26
--------
EID:3ed1 1ceb6f60
RS> Then there is the common use of the word router in computing.
RS> Normally it would be pronounced here as rooter, instead of your
RS> rowter. Essentially then becomes like your screw. So a PCB router
RS> does some quite 'interesting' things to a printed circuit board
RS> design, comprehensively routes it you might say |-)
JH> And as a follow up, rooting in the US is supporting a team while
JH> rooting in this part of the world is participation in sexual
JH> congress. A young Australin exchange student who was in the US at
JH> the same time as I was was asked if she would root for the High
JH> School football team. Her answer mystified her hosts "One at a time
JH> or all at once?"
Yeah, I had forgotten about that one. Just as well she wasnt billeted
with religious fundys |-)
Then there is root beer. Sorry, I have to rush off and register that
name, bye |-)
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Stewart Draper
To: Jeff Russell
Sub: Re: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 09 Jul 94 22:04:00
--------
EID:33c1 1ce9b080
PID: RA 2.02 147
MSGID: 3:712/619 53bdbc5e
EID: eceb ceb44498
TID: xMail 1.01.0324 001176-043
SD>
SD> JR> I quoted this because it's a good example of ranting.
SD>
SD> SD> I am skeptical of skeptics. I lie to liars. I cheat
What I was simply stating was that skeptics as a modus operandi work
of skepticism or negative prejudice bases. If you use concepts and considera
tions that are rigidly followed to answer the unknown, you will always
get an
unknown. There is a use for skepticism no doubt when others would attempt
t
o lie and cheat. But there are many unknown phenomena out there that need
to
be looked at in a different way. One has to work backwards when dealing
wit
h the unknown; one must question ones own preconceived notions. Finding
the
truth is no laughing matter and cannot be done so obviously and easily
as yo
u may think. The truth is out there but you need to broaden your horizons
of
understanding if you are to attempt to find it. I only write to aid you
in
your search, nothing more. If you don't accept what I say then ok and
don't
write me back and tell me I'm a dill. As this is of no consequence as
I know
what I know.
The first thing a skeptic does is to relate everything back to a fund
amental known. The problem in this is that the fundamental known may infact
be something different that what it is taken for. You need to look at a
probl
em form as many angles as possible, using as much information as you can
get
your hands upon. I have noticed skeptics seem to chuck anything out without
really looking into it if it vaguely smells fishy. And in this case anythin
g that smells fishy is everything that isn't commonly agreed to.
We have a case in point of the common-denominator or think as being g
rossly wrong. Take religion vs science of old; science took a bagging
due to
the power of the church. Nowadays this old law is being used by science
aga
inst anything else it comes up against. Could the scientists of today
be as
blind as the religionsist of old; sticking to fundamental and agreed-upon
co
ncepts of reality?
--- xMail/beta
* Origin: Cross Facts BBS Russell Lea +61-2-712-3910 (3:712/619)
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--------
From: Stewart Draper
To: Some
Sub: The ultimate skeptic defined
Date: 09 Jul 94 22:22:00
--------
EID:fe6f 1ce9b2c0
PID: RA 2.02 147
MSGID: 3:712/619 53bdc0a4
EID: eae0 ceb44499
TID: xMail 1.01.0324 001176-043
The ultimate skeptic is defined as one who follows all known and trav
elled routes in finding an answer for the unknown. A skeptic is one who
seek
s agreement based upon commonly held beliefs at the time, and nothing more.
A skeptic is therefore close-minded and prejudiced before even looking
at som
ething. Without looking at something with the intention of understanding
it,
you will not find the truth behind it. If you look to find all false things
, then you will find only those false things that you are looking for.
The
human mind will always solve problems based upon previous experience.
And if
previous experience is based upon a totallity of belief in explained phenome
na and a totallity of unbelief in un-explained phenomena; then you will
not f
ind an answer.
The human mind can always come up with answers to problems as it can
create possible answers that seem plausible and can be agreed upon. All
scie
ntific evidence is only as good as the person viewing it. Anything that
cann
ot be agreed upon is not conclusive to the masses. Anything experienced
by t
he individual is experienced with their own capacities which may be more
than
the masses. If you seek to find answers to life using scientific methods
a
lone you will find yourself looking into physical events as we know them
to b
e only. There is more to this, as individuals have discovered above and
beyo
nd meagre scientific means of understanding.
Blindness will disappear as understandings take hold! Dogmatic skepti
cs band together in bunches, following and thinking alike in one un-ending
ch
ain of thought agreement based upon meagre scientific methods. Science
is go
od for materiality, but not to find the answers too life and unknown phenomen
a!
Please disagree with me; after all that's what skeptics are about isn
't it. You may think I am ignorant, yes indeed I am, I am gladly ignorant
of
your realities and hair-brained concepts.
--- xMail/beta
* Origin: Cross Facts BBS Russell Lea +61-2-712-3910 (3:712/619)
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--------
From: Richard O'donovan
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 23:10:00
--------
EID:ec64 1cebb940
PID: RA 1.11 169
MSGID: 3:632/352 53c06ed8
RS> SD> but it's a very good attempt at being popular and agreed with.
RS> Sure beats deliberate coat trailing in a desperate effort to
RS> get an argument |-)
Is that what this post would be described as? An argument? Looks a lot
like
character assassination to me, or was I confused by the 'facts'?
eg.
RS> (to the onlookers, Stew has been doing precisely the same
RS> thing in the local Science echo, howling about how useless scientists
are
RS> and that we should all join the one true religion, Draperism, with Stew
R
S>doing an excellent imitation of a tele-evangelist)
Have you so little faith in the participants here that they can't fend for
th
emselves?
RS> You left out the 'closed mind' and 'religion' bit here this
RS> time. Or are they reserve ammunition ? |-)
Maybe they'll appear when someone poses an argument!?!
RS> Or it could be they do actually try to understand why some
RS> people like the fringe loonys believe what they believe, like being
RS> abducted by aliens and experimented on. Gives them something to talk
RS> about I guess.
What about an open mind? If all that can be done to dismiss such claims
is to
label the people making them as "fringe loonys", then surely you're proving
Stewarts case. If you have automatically dismissed such ideas out of hand,
then there can be no room for them being true - irrespective of whether
they
objectively are or not. Isn't such paltry narrow mindedness a perfect example
of what Stewart said?
SD>I don't think it's a good attempt at finding the truth, but it's a very
goo
d
SD>attempt at being popular and agreed with.
RS> SD> Skeptics are popularists in wolfs clothing,
RS> Yeah, vintage Stewart Draper, find as many bad words as you
RS> can, claim thats what the group is. Did you just search and replace
RS> 'scientists' for 'skeptics' ?
I'm new to this echo, so I don't know what passes for an argument, but this
c
ertainly what I would call one.
RS> Atleast this one is only a page or so of tripe, something to
RS> be grateful
Were you referring to his post or yours?
Toodles.
--- FMail 0.96
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--------
From: Adrian Eng
To: J. Moore
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages
Date: 15 Jul 94 17:57:08
--------
EID:77f7 1cef8f20
MSGID: 3:690/245.0 2e270634
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 3689
Hiya J.
-=> On 12 Jul 94 07:48:11, J. Moore smirked and said to Adrian Eng <=-
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
BAD
AE> for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign sublimina-ing
AE> implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
JM> Could you please offer even an ounce of proof for this?
The study was done (according to another user responding) in 1957. Apparantly
there was increase in demand for the product. Unfortunately, when a second
study was done... it came out with nothing... I don't know if any new
research is done now...
AE> Also.. turning to music... heavy metal have been found to contain
AE> subliminal messages in them as well.. I myself am not a big heavy metal
AE> fan so I get my info from what others say. There was a Guns and Roses
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
AE> The above is just what I hear HOWEVER I've also heard that Enigma also
AE> use this technique. Being curious, I recorded parts of RETURN TO THE
AE> INNOCENCE from their latest CD onto my computer. When reversed, words
AE> could be identified. From a parts statements such as "I use Nicotine"
"I
AE> also lie" were heard by me. From Sadness Part I there was a part where
AE> it said "I'm not nasty"
AE> Don't believe me? Just did what I've just done and see hear it for
AE> yourself. You need to go through it a couple of times before you
AE> actually pick it up.
AE> I'm curious about some Guns and Roses songs since I don't have a copy
of
AE> one. Anyone wanna try it out?
JM> I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy]
Thank you =) What's the word in the square brackets for???
JM> and hope to
JM> hear much more from you [toidi na er'uoy] in the future.
If I find anything else interesting.....
JM> Your research
JM> skills are truly [toidi na er'uoy] stellar,
stellar?
JM> and I'm glad there are
JM> people like you out there [toidi na er'uoy] to protect the rest of us
JM> from this plague [toidi na er'uoy]. Keep up the good [toidi na
JM> er'uoy] work, and keep posting [toidi na er'uoy]!
I don't there is enough people who are aware to go around. Most people
are just happy to ignore it and say it's a load of rubbish
Cheers,
AdEs 25/53
... Love your enemies -- it makes them so damned mad.
--- Fastecho 1.41+ (Byteline)
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--------
From: Mark Bellis
To: Tom Bomhower
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 14 Jul 94 01:58:11
--------
EID:2d7c 1cee0f40
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 770212e0
Schizophrenia "A political term"? - I think schizophrenia is
generally recognized as an brain disorder. Although not understood
perfectly (few things are) there are a class of mental disorders with
similar symptoms that is called 'Schizophrenia'.
I don't even think Szasz would still believe what he wrote in
"The Myth of Mental Illness" today.
Mark Bellis
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Mark Bellis
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: BASIS
Date: 14 Jul 94 02:06:11
--------
EID:2ade 1cee10c0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 770212e1
What exactly is BASIS and how do I subscribed - Also, what do the little
numbers by the Dr Pepper sign mean? I have always wondered.
Thanks
Mark Bellis
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Ed Blackman
To: John Powell
Sub: New Species
Date: 13 Jul 94 04:25:12
--------
EID:11f1 1ced2320
MSGID: 1:3634/2.0 2e24f1ab
On in a message to Pete Porro, John Powell wrote:
PP> Here's an update.
PP> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Scientists have found a second new mammal...
JP> Thanks, I needed that one!
JP> I wonder what other weird new creatures they've got over there...?
Giant Invisible Purple Frogs.
Ed Blackman
... DIME: A dollar with all the taxes taken out.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Don Allen
Sub: Russia In Space 1/2
Date: 15 Jul 94 23:07:04
--------
EID:1f51 1cefb8e0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100968c8
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Russia In Space 1/2
Dr. Beter's wild writings about Russian space weapons, which among other
things are supposed to have destroyed an American moon base killing many
U.S.
personel on the moon, are very much in favor with the Liberty Lobby and
the
entire nexus of Willis Carto organizations, which include the root of the
Holocaust Denial movement and a publishing house that keeps in prince, among
other things, much Nazi sympathizer literature. Now, none of this of course
proves a single thing about Beter's cliams, but it does let you know
something about the intellectual nexus of the people you will find yourself
dealing with in this area--and their extremely loose epistomological
standards, to phrase it in a kinder manner than they deserve.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: 1:232/10 HOLOGRAP
Date: 15 Jul 94 23:07:05
--------
EID:366f 1cefb8e0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100a1cd7
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: 1:232/10 HOLOGRAP
Sorry, but I do not understand at all what you say is a very obvious flaw
in
my argument. I assure you, both traditional Indian society and too many
New
Agers have used the doctrine of self-created reality and reincarnation to
justify extreme cruelty--the notion being that the victims deserve it as
recompense for past-life sins (if they did not, they would not be so low
cast), and that the victim is ultimately responsible for any suffering by
having create the victim's own reality by him or herself.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Dave Halliday
To: John Powell
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 15 Jul 94 16:06:00
--------
EID:216a 1cef80c0
MSGID: 1:343/210 86E01311
JP| DH> JP|Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other
| DH> (laptop, |cellular phone) batteries have?
JP| DH> There are always new technologies being explored -
| DH> Nickel/Metal/Hydride batteries are now starting to show up in the
| DH> light-weight laptop 'puters. I don't have any numbers on them but
it
| DH> looks like they have about 30-50% again more power than NiCads for
the
| DH> same weight.
JP|That would help. My laptop (non-active color 50MHz) can go about 4
|hours on a charge, which is nice even for a coast-to-coast flight, but
|the recharge is like 12 or 14 hours...
There are even more technologies coming down the road... I subscribe to
a number of manufacturing and trade journals and they report on stuff
that is being developed even before it hits production...
Combine that with specialized ICs for battery management ( charging and
watchdog functions ) and we should see laptops lasting several days per
charge with the batteries being about the size of a cigarette pack...
Fun stuff!!!
JP| DH> Batteries will last a *lot* longer when these are used.
JP|I think that's strange but I've found that to be right. They actually
|need to be exercised.
There are ( finally!!! ) a few companies making chargers for people with
cell phones that do this. There is one local company whom I consult for
on telecommunications ( very neat case of remote sensing! ) who builds a
charger that I use - has two battery "wells", you swap from one to the
other every day - pop the tired one in and it will gradually discharge
to a safe level and then do a multi-stage charge tailored for that
specific battery! I was replacing my motorola "classic" battery every
5-10 months and since using one fo these chargers, it has been over one
year and no problems at all...
I am pestering them to build one for my large Panasonic SVHS camcorder
equipment... :-)
TTYL - Dave
* QMPro 1.51 * Do Cheshire cats drink evaporated milk?
--- WM v3.11/94-0125
* Origin: Grey Matter * Seattle, WA * (206) 528-1941 (1:343/210)
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--------
From: Andy Voelkle
To: All
Sub: EXOGENESIS
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:13:08
--------
EID:46d2 1cf009a0
MSGID: 1:106/1393.0 2e273424
A good friend of mine is a scientist who thinks that human life on Earth
may h
ave had its origins outside the Earth. It's true that amino acids have been
fo
und in meteorite fragments, and that complex organic molecules have been
detec
ted between the stars.
I wonder if there is anything to "exogenesis"?
I'd also like to hear a lot of PRO and CON discussion if there's interest.
Anyone?
--- Maximus/2 2.00
* Origin: The Round Table, BBS of Gulf Coast Mensa * 922-1393 (1:106/1393)
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Ed Blackman
Sub: New Species
Date: 16 Jul 94 12:38:00
--------
EID:2002 1cf064c0
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Ed Blackman to John Powell <=-
PP> Here's an update.
PP> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Scientists have found a second new mammal...
JP> Thanks, I needed that one!
JP> I wonder what other weird new creatures they've got over there...?
EB> Giant Invisible Purple Frogs.
Not so fast Ed! I've been reading translations of some religious
historical texts hundreds of years old from that region and there are
mentions of these creatures even then...
However, to be accurate, there is no specific mention of them being
purple but there _is_ mention of a somewhat multi-colored hue
occasionally visible on damp mornings at sunrise...
Pete (et. al.) is definately on to something here...
A note of caution. Large steamy piles of dung allegedly found
immediately after an early morning 'sighting' have been analyzed by
Chinese scientists and do not appear to reflect (or be representative
of) a diet common to frogs or other similar amphibians. However, if the
diet consists of small rodent-like indigenous mammals, as has been
speculated by various local investigators, then the specific nature of
the dung heaps is explained.
Lastly, there are undocumented accounts of the use of this dung, when
very fresh and still in a somewhat gelatinous consistency, as a poltice
for various skin and flesh wounds and lesions with apparently remarkable
results...
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:36:00
--------
EID:6d01 1cf04c80
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Tad Cook to John Powell <=-
DH> I think that people need to have a better idea of what use they have
DH> for their vehicle - why not have two - one gas powered for long
DH> distance trips ( rental? ) and the electric for city commute ( 50 miles
DH> per charge )
JP> Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other (laptop,
JP> cellular phone) batteries have?
TC> That effect is alleged to occur only in nicad batteries, but
TC> in fact the memory effect is a myth. Its a widely believed
TC> myth though.
Your last point is quite valid. In fact, I have two cellular phone
batteries and one laptop computer battery that completely belief that
myth at this very moment...
I've tried talking to them, even threatening them, and they refuse to
relinquish their belief in the myth.
What method would you suggest I use to try to save these poor batteries
from this obviously destructive cult belief???
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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--------
From: Jeff Freeman
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Conference
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:50:14
--------
EID:3202 1cef9640
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 a127fbe0
REPLY: 1:125/27 ed26d41b
On (12 Jul 94) Rick Moen wrote to Chris Cox...
RM> CC>I think we are straying from the original topic of this conference.
RM>
RM> This conference is _always_ straying. Most people passing through
RM> here either haven't a clue what the echo's supposed to be about, or
RM> don't care, or are cranks of various sorts seeking new audiences.
Have there been any new fringe science claims? Any old ones to
rehash... again.
I still think there's something to that oat bran = less cholesterol
thing.
:)
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:53:01
--------
EID:51d2 1cef96a0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 ba288fe9
REPLY: 1:125/27 ed26d51b
On (12 Jul 94) Rick Moen wrote to Stewart Draper...
RM> SD> I am skeptical of skeptics because all skeptics do is be skeptical.
RM> SD> [eighty lines of abused electrons omitted out of kindness]
RM>
RM> Oh, what the heck, let's play count the fallacies . . . .
That was the most instructive thing I've read to date. Especially the
way you so informatively explained the terms being used, such as:
RM> Gratuitous editorialising, without even a pretense at reasoning.
RM> "argumentum ad novitam",
RM> "argumentum ad antiquitam".
RM> Gratuitous and ignorant psychoanalysis.
RM> A simple irrelevancy. (Sorry, I can't make this one interesting.)
RM> This of course is argumentum ad antiquitam!
RM> More ignorant, gratuituous psychoanalysis.
RM> Simple non-sequitur,
RM> Argument ad hominem at its finest!
RM> More gratuitous, ignorant psychoanalysis.
RM> The close is a sweeping flourish of (incoherent) personal opinion.
Makes me wanna take Debate 101.
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 15 Jul 94 19:48:03
--------
EID:3338 1cef9e00
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 040121ee
On (11 Jul 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Pete Porro...
FR> When a subset of a species becomes sexually isolated from another
FR> subset (such as by rising waters or by plate tectonics and volcanic
FR> activity) the allele frequency of an attribute is likely to increase
FR> as the size of the gene pool decreases. Eventually, when the species
FR> can not successfully mate with its ancestors, it is a new species.
Question: A Horse and Donkey can mate and the offspring is a Mule --
does this indicate that the Horse and Donkey are of the same species?
What is to be implied from the fact that the Mule is almost always
sterile? I am assuming that the Horse and Donkey are nearly separate
species, but not quite. No?
Also, what would you make of this:
Animals E and H can breed.
Animals H and O can breed.
Animals O and E cannot.
Is that even POSSIBLE?
Also, lets say, O can breed with G, B, and R; but E and H cannot. Also
G, B and R cannot breed with one-another (only with O or with
themselves, I mean -- G can breed with G, etc.).
I'll assume that if part 1 isn't possible that neither is part two --
but are these, then, separate species?
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Don Allen
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:24:34
--------
EID:5f47 1cf08300
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 aaa8b8f6
On (14 Jul 94) Don Allen wrote to All...
DA> I predict the comet will miss Jupiter! Any takers?
The folks on "Gods News" (a show on our local all-god TV station) are
predicting the end of the world, meaning the return of Christ, may be
begun by this comet hitting Jupiter. They are supposing that Jupiter
may ignite when the comet hits it, becoming a second sun.
They have stopped short of saying that it WILL happen, mind you... only
that it COULD.
So be good, for goodness sake...
[sorry about the off-key singing]
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 16 Jul 94 15:00:41
--------
EID:13a3 1cf07800
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 ff410d47
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 2e27ad1e
On (15 Jul 94) Robert Jackson wrote to Rick Moen...
RJ> So, if someone says they can make cold fusion with a Mason jar,
RJ> a roll of speaker wire, two paper clips, and some duct tape,
a
RJ> skeptic is just interested in seeing such an experiment done?
No, a skeptic wants proof that such a thing can be done before a claim
is made that it can be done.
IE -- if I say that "I can fly simply by thinking happy thoughts and
flapping my arms", a skeptic might respond with something on the order
of "Prove it."
If I am on an airplane at the time of thinking Happy Thoughts and Arm
Flapping, the Skeptic may add, "Prove that the airplane is not, in fact,
the means of flight... since all these other people on the plane are
also flying and are not, in fact, thinking happy thoughts or flapping."
What is it you find so threatening by the above? That folks making
whacky (or even not so whacky) claims be prompted to provide the
evidence and undergo some modest degree of scrutiny prior to having
their claims accepted as factual (or even accurate).
Fringe Science Claims: That cellular phones cause brain tumors. Oat
bran lowers cholesterol, cold fusion... and on and on.
What is so devious and demanding about asking for some proof before
accepting these claims out-right?
I think you are taking offense for demands of proof in reference to
untestable claims (such as, "There is a God" or "Reality is Subjective"),
which has nothing to do with Skepticism, per se.
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:26:05
--------
EID:b01c 1cf08340
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 bdfbbd82
On (14 Jul 94) Jackson Harding wrote to Andrew Lee...
JH> Some consider that man IS an ape.
I've met several folks that I considered apes, as far as that goes.
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Jeff Freeman
To: Lewin Edwards
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:27:15
--------
EID:f3a7 1cf08360
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 0b4e7713
On (11 Jul 94) Lewin Edwards wrote to Terry Smith...
LE> And what's the difference (besides a little pronunciation difference)
LE> between referring to things as "evil spirits" or "bacteria" (or
LE> whatever) ? Just a word.
The definition of the words, actually.
I'm sick. What's the cause?
Answer A) Evil Spirits. Basis for this conclusion: I can't see it,
must be invisible. It's harmful, must be evil.
Answer B) Bacteria. The Evil Spirit claim had no basis in fact,
so I investigated and discovered a tiny organism, which
is neither evil nor a spirit.
Answer C) Evil Spirits Created Bacteria.
There is no difference in the EFFECT -- "I'm sick" -- but there *IS* a
difference in the CAUSE... one CAUSE is based on speculation and the
other is based on observation.
How about:
I'm here. What's the cause?
Answer A) God created me.
Answer B) Evolution.
Answer C) God created Evolution.
What's the difference?
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Jeff Freeman
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Subliminal Messages
Date: 16 Jul 94 16:23:18
--------
EID:0d05 1cf082e0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 04067db6
REPLY: 3:690/245.0 2e270634
On (15 Jul 94) Adrian Eng wrote to J. Moore...
AE> JM> I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy]
AE> Thank you =) What's the word in the square brackets for???
Hold your monitor up to a mirror.
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Bodily Molecule Recycling T/F?
Date: 14 Jul 94 05:04:27
--------
EID:de3a 1cee2880
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e260a26
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Robert Jackson
just HAD to mention "Bodily Molecule Recycling T/F?"
Here's the original question.
MN> Supposedly the human body eliminates and replaces all the molecules
MN> in the cells on a regular basis.
MN> Bodily Molecule Recycling: True or False?
LJ> I'm gonna give it a 100% False rating.
RJ> .... The body has to take in
RJ> its chemical requirements and it produces waste, e.g., O2 in,
RJ> CO2 out. Sweat is H2O leached out, along with many chemicals
RJ> (pheromones, etc.) that are produced within the body, not just
RJ> taken in. Bloodflow is responsible ultimately for every living
RJ> cell in the body receiving its O2 needs, and carrying away
RJ> CO2. Thus, every cell is giving up carbon atoms to go
RJ> somewhere else.
RJ> The basic idea is set forth, you may extrapolate what you
RJ> will. I think he has a valid posit.
Certainly SOME of the molecules that have recently arrived will stay,
and some of the old ones leave, but the question was whether ALL the
body's molecules were regularly replaced. As pointed out in other
posts, there are some cells which are never (or perhaps extremely
rarely) replaced. Nerves and brain tissue are fixed. Bone cells
and their matrix are very steady. Tissues of the eye are slow to
regenerate.
Therefore, it is with some certainty that the answer to the original
question is FALSE in my opinion.
... Magic Markers are not magic at all; they're full of ink.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Jeff Freeman
To: John Moore
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:26:49
--------
EID:0291 1cee5b40
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 e87a6b51
REPLY: 1:100/435 608089ab
On (10 Jul 94) John Moore wrote to Jeff Freeman...
JM> I am new enough to this kind of chat to claim some innocent ignorance
JM> of proper procedure.
There's a proper procedure?
JM> I pick this up from a local echo, and my practice as
JM> above has just been to append my comment to the end of the last
JM> message, which my message reader sends back addressed to the last sender.
Ah. There ya go... some of us aren't sorting the messages according to
thread/subject. When messages are addressed to me, I read them all one
after t'other -- then I go back and read all of the messages in order.
JM> My assumption has been that this just appears as a running part of the
JM> thread, with an alert to that last sender. If this is wrong, and I
JM> should be changing the address to "ALL", I apologize, and would appreciat
e
JM> anyone setting me straight on proper protocol.
I don't think there's anything that specific (protocol? procedure?
[grin])... I personally always try to address the message to the person
it is directed towards, even if I have to manually type and risk
mispelling their name. Other folks don't. Some people only read mail
addressed to themselves or ALL...
Just do it anyway you like, really -- but if you send a reply to one
person's comments addressed to a different person, they are likely to
think you "accidentally" sent the message to the wrong person... which
is also something people do all the time, come to think of it. :)
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: Fred Garvin
To: Rick Maloney
Sub: Hitler
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:39:20
--------
EID:ad49 1cee74e0
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 2e258658
REPLY: 1:2613/220 618c3446
RM> I wouldn't know if this would really fit in here or
RM> not, but I have a question for you all... Was
RM> Hitler a smart man??? It would seem he was because
RM> of his pre-war accomplishments, but what he did
RM> during the war was just plan dumb... I'd like to
Of course he was a smart man. He would have to be exeptionally brilliant
to ge
t tens of millions of people to believe in him. But Kim is a smart man.
Mao wa
s a smart man. So was Stalin. These guys are/were all very intelligent,
but th
ey were full-bore lunatics also.
--- Maximus 2.00
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 14 Jul 94 16:17:00
--------
EID:0b31 1cee8220
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Dave Halliday to John Powell <=-
DH> JP|Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other
DH> (laptop, |cellular phone) batteries have?
DH> The Lead/Acid batteries do not have the memory effect that
DH> nickel/cadmium batteries suffer from. The primary reason that thy are
DH> not used in cell phones and the like is weight. Kinda hard to keep
DH> from grunting over the phone when your handhold weighs in at 10 pounds.
Yeah, that would be a problem!
DH> There are always new technologies being explored -
DH> Nickel/Metal/Hydride batteries are now starting to show up in the
DH> light-weight laptop 'puters. I don't have any numbers on them but it
DH> looks like they have about 30-50% again more power than NiCads for the
DH> same weight.
That would help. My laptop (non-active color 50MHz) can go about 4
hours on a charge, which is nice even for a coast-to-coast flight, but
the recharge is like 12 or 14 hours...
DH> Batteries will last a *lot* longer when these are used.
I think that's strange but I've found that to be right. They actually
need to be exercised.
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Re: lsd nonsense
Date: 13 Jul 94 07:41:11
--------
EID:f469 1ced3d20
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 778614a2
-=>While eating a book entitled "Re: lsd nonsense",
Robert Jackson mumbled:
RJ> That's pretty safe to say. It's an issue of how mentally
RJ> sound you are and able to cope with your reality being altered
RJ> drastically. People I've known who've had terrible personality
RJ> problems (as in difficulties with defining their own ego) have
RJ> demonstrated to me that they shouldn't have gobbled the
RJ> windowpane. Some mental problems are chemical, some aren't.
RJ> Some chemically-related ones may not necessarily explode in
RJ> conjunction with psychotropics, I might say with some hard
RJ> evidence. Psychology, I would think, is a crucial factor even
RJ> in this case but the brain is a big crapshoot when it comes to
RJ> understanding anyway.
RJ> I had once heard that Timothy Leary had a chromosome scan
RJ> several years ago, perhaps in an effort to quell the scares
RJ> disseminated in LSD's heyday by the anti-drug crowd. Leary has
RJ> apparently tripped over 5,000 times and only about two
RJ> abnormalities on a couple of genes showed up--which is quite
RJ> normal for anyone. His son was also scanned as well--turned up
RJ> about the same.
Like they say in Alcoholics Anonymous -- "Take the rum
out of a fruitcake and you still have a fruitcake." 8*)
... We've secretly replaced their dilithium with new Folger's crystals...
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: Rape of the planet
Date: 14 Jul 94 00:05:11
--------
EID:6282 1cee00a0
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 778614a3
-=>While eating a book entitled "Rape of the planet",
John Jeanneault mumbled:
JJ> PLANET PLUNDERING AS OLD AS UR, ARCHEOLOGISTS SAY
JJ> By Thomas Maugh II Toronto Star July 2, 1994
JJ> "Theory that people in pre-industrial ages lived in harmony with
JJ> environment is eroded by the facts."
JJ> Emerging recognition of the unintentional destructivness of past
JJ> civilizations is blasting apart "the escapist idea of the
JJ> primordial paradise," that pre-industrial societies were composed
JJ> of great environmentalists who lived in harmony with their
JJ> surroundings. Redman says, "We're no different than they were
JJ> thousands of years ago. What we need is to learn to cope with our
JJ> environment, not to purify ourselves."
Thanks for the reprint of that article.
I think you might enjoy reading Murray Gell-Mann's
new book The Quark and the Jaguar.
... "I think not," said Descartes; and promptly disappeared...
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: RSI
Date: 20 Jul 94 08:56:10
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6488c539
PID: FM 2.02
REPETITIVE STRESS -- EPIDEMIC OR FAD?
At least 3,000 repetitive stress injury lawsuits have been filed
against equipment makers, including keyboard manufacturers, alleging
product design is at fault in causing the ailments. Skeptics call RSI a
fad, like tennis elbow. Misconceptions abound, including the myth that RSI
affects primarily office workers who use computers. In fact, this group
represents only 12% of repetitive stress injuries resulting in lost work
time. Most of the complaints come from auto workers, meat processors and
poultry slaughterers. Whatever the final result, the syndrome is hardly
new
-- an 18th century Italian researcher described "diseases of clerks and
scribes" from "continuous sitting, repeated use of the hand and strain of
the mind." (Wall Street Journal 7/14/94 A1)
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Bodily molecule recycl
Date: 20 Jul 94 11:13:33
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 648a6d91
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 2e27ad17
PID: FM 2.02
RM> Playiung devil's advocate is playing devil's advocate. Skepticism is
RM> critical inquiry into testable fringe-science claims of fact.
rj> To forward critical inquiry, mustn't one advance a negative
rj> position in light of presented evidence until proof or logic
rj> creates a valid construct? Your reply is tautolgical.
Not at all. The presented evidence is generally a belief which, while testabl
e, has been tested false yet still presented as if it were never addressed.
ESP, for instance, _always_ fails under proper test condictions. Under
test c
ondictions staged by the willful believer, however, ESP yields positive
result
s. This isn't science, however.
I should add that those who don't care whether it's science or not may continu
e to believe religiously as they wish and few skeptics would suggest that
they
need provide evidence for their outrageous claims. When it is stated as
havi
ng been scientifically proven, however, skeptics will ask to see the evidence.
Self-professed psychics never once have made a prediction which was both
unexp
ected and at the same time not very mundane. Such 'psychics' always phrase
th
eir predictions in vague generalities or state that which is always an ongoing
process. "There will be a major earthquake in California this year" is
a ver
y common "prediction."
When the predictions fail, the self-professed 'psychic' tallys-up the hits
and
ignores the failures. That the hits were mundane (like, "The Royal Family
wi
ll continue to have marriage problems this year) are added-up as if they
were
unexpected.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 20 Jul 94 11:24:47
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 648a6d92
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 2e27ad1e
PID: FM 2.02
> So, if someone says they can make cold fusion with a Mason jar,
> a roll of speaker wire, two paper clips, and some duct tape, a
> skeptic is just interested in seeing such an experiment done?
> Not whether fusion CAN be achieved, or is a sham, but just that
> they see it?
You may wish to review what an encyclopedia has to say about Hume-class
skepti
cism. It _is_ a philosophy as you suggest, predicated upon scientific method.
1) The burdon of evidence falls upon the positive claimant
2) Mundane claims require mundane evidence. Outrageous claims
require outrageous evidence.
Cold fusion, when it comes, will be published in peer review journals and
the
specifics of the technology and methodology to acquire cold fusion will
be pre
sented in precise mathematical and scientific terms which may be testable
and
either validated or falsified.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: The ultimate skeptic defined
Date: 20 Jul 94 11:57:53
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 648bb374
REPLY: 3:712/619 53bdc0a4
PID: FM 2.02
> The ultimate skeptic is defined as one who follows all known and
> travelled routes in finding an answer for the unknown.
1) Do you have any evidence for this claim?
2) Are you a religious zealot who has been told skeptics
address matters of deity?
3) Are you poisoning the well to advance an outrageous
belief?
As it is, you're hardly impressive.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 20 Jul 94 13:24:31
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 648bb375
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 040121ee
PID: FM 2.02
FR> When a subset of a species becomes sexually isolated from another
FR> subset (such as by rising waters or by plate tectonics and volcanic
FR> activity) the allele frequency of an attribute is likely to increase
FR> as the size of the gene pool decreases. Eventually, when the species
FR> can not successfully mate with its ancestors, it is a new species.
jf> Question: A Horse and Donkey can mate and the offspring is a Mule --
jf> does this indicate that the Horse and Donkey are of the same species?
They are capable of breeding successfully. That makes them the same species,
to my knowledge. Species is a classification. There are both subclassesses
a
nd parentclasses. Subclasses include both sports and mules depending upon
whe
ther the offspring can breed successfully, as I recall. We're getting far
out
side of both the subject of evolution and my field -- artificial intelligence.
jf> What is to be implied from the fact that the Mule is almost always
jf> sterile? I am assuming that the Horse and Donkey are nearly separate
jf> species, but not quite. No?
It implies that the genetic material exchange does not result in a geneticly
r
eproducable cell which is capable of division (called 'mitosis?) It implies
that there is not enough information in the male and female's sperm and
egg to
allow offspring to have eggs which will divide.
jf> Also, what would you make of this:
jf>
jf> Animals E and H can breed.
jf> Animals H and O can breed.
jf> Animals O and E cannot.
jf>
jf> Is that even POSSIBLE?
You have merely stated a paradox based upon a genetically impossible assumptio
n. Once this state of events is shown to be possible, then I would have
to an
swer, "I don't hold a single clue as to how that's possible." As it is,
I don
't believe that this _is_ possible. Is it?
Do you have a specific reference of this case I could examine?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 16 Jul 94 08:53:01
--------
EID:5d32 1cf046a0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 62884795
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Sandy Doonan
* Originally to Walter Bartoo
* Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 17:28
>>>> Hmmm....time will tell won't it?
wb> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real
wb> count down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
You have your date off by a year. 1998 is when Henry Kissinger will make
his
historic announcements to the world, backed up by the military might of
the Un
ited Nations. The steps required to barcode everyone in the world are already
in place and _that_ will be completed by the end of 1997. There won't be
any
turning back. But the agreement of world domination won't be announced
until
1998.
On December 31'st, 1994, the government will have to release the bodies
of the
greys on ice in Hanger 18. There is some speculation that the interstellar
n
eutrino flux they are currently being shielded from will revive them and
that
they will Network and stop the intended take-over by the United Nations
under
the auspice of Henry Kissinger. The government isn't going to let them
revive
if they can stop it but really they have no choice. They loose the lease
on
the land and, unless they want a lot of publicity, they are going to have
to e
ither nuke the place to destroy all evidence (claiming an 'accident' at
Mercur
y Test Site, perhaps) or come out with the facts. And I don't think our
gover
nment will kill everyone in Las Vegas simply to keep a lid on the aliens
they
have kidnapped for so many years.
--- FMail 0.96
* Origin: Bartoo.sys found. Engage bullshit detector? (Yes/Fnord!) (1:3623/18
)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Jury Rights
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:59:00
--------
EID:0d05 1cf00f60
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 62819492
REPLY: 1:396/17 2e2111c6
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> TRUE or FALSE ?????
> When you sit on a jury, you have the right to vote your
> conscience. This
> includes nullifying a law or overriding the Judge's
> instructions.
> True. But it is extremely unlikely the judge will tell you this
> because
> the law doesn't require it.
> The Fully Informed Jury Association (FIJA) is a national network
> of
> jury-rights activists. They are involved in education and
> advocating
> change in laws to require Judges to inform juries of their
> rights.
This is stupid. First, i have never met anyone who doesn't know this, so
why c
reate an organization that pretends it's some sort of deep dark secret?
Second, if such a jury action would be beneficial to one side or the other
(pr
esumably mostly the defence) the lawyer for that side will certainly mention
i
t.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Prayer in school
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:01:00
--------
EID:abac 1cf01020
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 62819493
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 72741ccc
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> MH> Early Church history has been a hobby for probably more years than
you
> MH> have been on this earth.
> Mea,
> Can you refer me to a good source for information regarding
> American
> Fundamentalism? I am assuming that this is primarily an
> American
> phenom.
> Either way, I notice the Bible-worshipping tele-vangelists
> often
> cite the removal of Prayer in School as the beginning of the
> United
> States "Great Decline"... but it seems to me that Fundamentalism
> also
> took root, or at least began to grow, at about this same time.
Of course prayer in school as such was never removed, just government supporte
d, school board approved prayer, as it ought to have been.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: John Prewett
Sub: Evolution
Date: 16 Jul 94 02:05:00
--------
EID:83b2 1cf010a0
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 62819494
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA471AC9
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
Come on over to the Evolution echo, i have a question i'd like to ask you.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Rick Maloney
Sub: Hitler
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:50:00
--------
EID:6189 1cf04e40
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 628997a2
REPLY: 1:2613/220 618c3446
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> I wouldn't know if this would really fit in here or not, but I
> have a question for you all... Was Hitler a smart man??? It
> would seem he was because of his pre-war accomplishments, but
> what he did during the war was just plan dumb... I'd like to
I think Hitler *was* very smart but became increasingly blinded by his own
bel
iefs, his isolation and possibly by mental deterioration.
> hear your views... And the second one is, would saying "... you
> slut looking bitch..." be bad enough that it would cause
> expulsion from a BBS???
That's up to the sysop. Certainly it would be grounds for expulsion from
many
echos, including all the ones in Candynet.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Mark Bellis
Sub: BASIS
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:52:00
--------
EID:e279 1cf04e80
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 628997a3
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 770212e1
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> What exactly is BASIS and how do I subscribed - Also, what do
> the little
> numbers by the Dr Pepper sign mean? I have always wondered.
Basis is the newsletter of the Bay Area Skeptics, Rick Moen can give you
the d
etails.
My signature represents the old Dr Pepper logo, a redcircle with the numbers
a
rranged around the edge as on a clock.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: Re: Tesla Kooks
Date: 15 Jul 94 00:23:03
--------
EID:d339 1cef02e0
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2e275927
-=> Quoting Sweet Sue to Tad Cook <=-
TC>Check out the new issue of SKEPTICAL INQUIRER. Great article
TC>on Tesla, and how there is now a cult which celebrates him.
TC>What follows is a post from the Electronics echo about an
TC>upcoming meeting of the Tesla Society. I noticed some
TC>pretty "amazing" sessions that are scheduled:
SS> Westinghouse Corp., I believe, got rich off Tesla's "kooky" ideas.
SS> What was it in the schedule that you found so amazing?
The typical crackpot stuff.....perpetual motion, energy
from the fabric of space, zero point energy, etc. The
usual folklore.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Re: Holocaust Denial
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:40:11
--------
EID:0da0 1cef9500
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2e27592f
-=> Quoting David Macdonald to Fredric Rice <=-
DM> An amazing amount of the Holocaust Deniers and Minimizers can be
DM> traced back to the same single root, the Liberty Lobby and the mass
of
DM> other Willis Carto inspired institutions that cluster around it. It
is
DM> worth trying to find out a little about the intellectual roots of
DM> particular posters on this subject; it often leads right back to one
DM> organized effort!
You ought to hear the flack I have gotten over on the POLITICS
and LIMBAUGH echos when I point this out. There are a bunch of
devoted fans over there who love The Spotlight (a Carto product)
and Radio Free America (another Carto product).
Have you read NAZIS, COMMUNISTS, KLANSMEN and Others On the Fringe,
by John George and Laird Wilcox? Its published by Prometheus.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Re: Jury Rights
Date: 15 Jul 94 18:43:12
--------
EID:01da 1cef9560
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:343/124.0 2e275930
-=> Quoting Langston Goldfinch to All <=-
LG> TRUE or FALSE ?????
LG> When you sit on a jury, you have the right to vote your conscience.
LG> This includes nullifying a law or overriding the Judge's instructions.
LG> True. But it is extremely unlikely the judge will tell you this
LG> because the law doesn't require it.
Is this what juries in the South used to do when faced with
the prospect of acquitting a "good ol boy" Klan member who
had murdered Blacks?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: John Powell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Stuff
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:46:00
--------
EID:59a4 1cf165c0
PID: QE 2.76a-
In a msg to Ken Stuckas on , John Powell of 1:261/1201 writes:
JP> Scott Ecker - Director Technical Services;
JP> Director Network Operations
DB> Any relation to Don Ecker of UFO magazine?
Nope, no relation. (I checked...)
JP> - Director Special Projects
DB> Oooooh, can I have it? ;-)
Sure, if you really want it . Here's how it works: I pick a
special project, more or less outline what/why/how, you do most but not
necessarily all of the grunt work delegating to volunteers as you can,
you/me (and others) finalize a report. Something like 2 to 4 projects a
year depending on how it goes.
I'm not interested in rehashing old stuff or in assembling FAQ-like
material. I also want to mostly avoid UFO stuff whenever possible. (In
case folks haven't figured it out yet the so-called UFO Phenomenon is
finished, over, done...)
I won't tell you what the first project is but here's a hint: It
happenned rather recently and has never been researched or investigated.
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
* Origin: Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence BBS (1:261/1201.0)
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--------
From: John Powell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Stuff
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:36:00
--------
EID:59a4 1cf16480
PID: QE 2.76a-
In a msg to Ken Stuckas on , John Powell of 1:261/1201 writes:
JP> Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network Journal
JP> "Odyssey Journal"
JP> John Powell - Publisher
JP> Scott Ecker - Senior Editor
JP> - Editor
JP> - Reporters-at-large
JP> - Contributor(s)
DB> Forgot to ask you:
DB> Do you accept skeptical articles as well?
Of course. No opinions, only actual work... However, this Journal
doesn't exist. In much the same way that I run the Odyssey Fringe
Science Research Network, I made this available a long time ago in case
folks wanted to do it and so far there haven't been any takers.
My involvement is simple: If an actual Journal gets past Scott I'll
make it available electronically and I'll surface mail it to folks for
free (unless that starts costing a lot of money then I'll have to charge
$5 a year or something silly like that...)
Scott's involvement isn't so simple. He's way worse than me when it
comes to dotting I's, crossing T's and other nit-picking stuff like
that. It might take some effort to get an article across his desk...
JP> The Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network Journal,
JP> "Odyssey Journal", 'OJ', is the official publication of the
DB> You might want to change the abbreviation now. ;-)
Dang!! I forgot about that... Now I have to make up an entirely new
acronym... That _really_ ticks me off...
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
* Origin: Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence BBS (1:261/1201.0)
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Eric Greene
Sub: Time Dialation
Date: 15 Jul 94 05:46:52
--------
EID:b975 1cef2dc0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fdd
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Eric Greene just HAD to mention "Evolution"
AL>> Time dilation has been established? I didn't know that, but no
AL>> matter.
CL>> Time dilatation was established by synchronising two atomic clocks.
CL>> One stayed on the ground; the other boarded an aircraft that flew at
CL>> extremely high altitude.
LJ> You came close. In fact the clock on the plane ran SLOWER as the
LJ> plane was moving faster than the clock on the ground. It all has to
LJ> do with speed, not gravity.
EG> And you missed it by a few feet yourself. The gravity most certainly
EG> has something to do with time dilation. A clock on earth moves more
EG> slowly than a clock in space because time slows down in a
EG> gravitational field. It is this effect that was tested by placing
EG> clocks on planes and rocket.
Sorry to sound like I'm bickering, but given that the root of both
the time and mass equations is [ 1 - (v^2 / c^2)] ^ (1/2) can you
point out where gravity enters into it? In fact, it doesn't.
Velocity is the ONLY variable factor.
There is no "prefered" reference frame for the universe, but that
doesn't disallow us from using one that fits our needs. For the
experiment in question, the most usable reference frame was a
stationary earth and a moving vehicle (Plane or sattellite.)
For the clock that was moving the reference was the vehicle carrying
it. In the absence of any other factors, it's frame of reference
has to be considered as stationary, and thus an observer also on the
vehicle would perceive the clock to be running at the correct rate.
However when the clocks are brought back together, it is found that
the one that was in the moving vehicle was slower than the ground
based clock.
... I could get this kind of abuse at home.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Langston Goldfinch
Sub: Jury Rights
Date: 15 Jul 94 06:09:59
--------
EID:9bd1 1cef3120
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fde
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Langston Goldfinch
just HAD to mention "Jury Rights"
LG> TRUE or FALSE ?????
LG> When you sit on a jury, you have the right to vote your conscience.
LG> This includes nullifying a law or overriding the Judge's instructions.
LG> True. But it is extremely unlikely the judge will tell you this
LG> because the law doesn't require it.
FALSE. You have the duty to vote as the combination of the evidence you
were presented, the instructions you recieved, and your own personal
life experiences indicate.
No jury in the US hase ever "nullified" a law, only voters, courts
and legislators have that power.
If you ignore a judge's proper instructions, the case can immediately
be declared a mistrial and tried again.
LG> The Fully Informed Jury Association (FIJA) is a national network of
LG> jury-rights activists. They are involved in education and advocating
LG> change in laws to require Judges to inform juries of their rights.
Who are you, and why do juries NEED activists? I've done jury duty
eight times, and have not been put out by any of it.
In fact, jury **DUTY** is your payment for all the other **RIGHTS**
you enjoy daily. I don't think there ARE any special rights for
jurors.
... I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - ZB
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Dave Campbell
To: David Macdonald
Sub: 1:125/27 Holographic
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:07:19
--------
EID:a0f2 1cef78e0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fdf
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Quoting message
From: David Macdonald
To: Sweet Sue
Re: 1:125/27 Holographic
Date: 16 Jun 94 17:44:25
DM> In my experience, the notion that reality is created by the believer
DM> and is not an objective "outside" condition is not held by anyone who
DM> has been in combat.
In other words, there are no solipsists in foxholes?
Hey, that makes a good tag!
... There are no solipsists in foxholes.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Dave Campbell
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:07:43
--------
EID:148d 1cef78e0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fe0
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Quoting message
From: Dr Pepper
To: Pete Porro
Re: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Date: 16 Jun 94 15:24:00
> Which brings up another classic. Girl bartender says to me she
> doesn't like Chinese food because she didn't like what they did
> in WWII and the bombing of pearl harbor. I said that was the
> Japanese not the Chinese! She says oh Japanese, Chinese whats
> the difference. (this is the truth, I'm not making this up) I
> said Oh OK, Irish or Jewish, whats the difference!
DP> Maybe none. When i was in high school i knew a jew with a creamy
DP> freckled complexion, green eyes, and long flowing red hair who told
me
DP> that the jews had never intermarried!
Dr. Gene Scott, whose satellite signal might be receivable from all points
in Fidoland, claims (citing some book I never bothered to write down the
title of) that the ancient Hebrews were red-haired and freckled;
specifically, King David looked a lot like an Irishman.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Dave Campbell
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Historical scepticism
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:09:19
--------
EID:7bfd 1cef7920
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fe1
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Quoting message
From: Dr Pepper
To: Rick Moen
Re: Historical scepticism
Date: 17 Jun 94 11:29:00
DP> Bad logic. To be a victim, or the relatives of victims, does not stop
DP> you from being a victimizer.
Yup. Just ask the Palestinians.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Dave Campbell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mars
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:09:43
--------
EID:88af 1cef7920
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fe2
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Quoting message
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Campbell
Re: Mars
Date: 10 Jun 94 17:32:30
DC> I believe Mars is heavy enough to hold a breathable atmosphere.
KT> Oh good - if you believe and click your heals it may come true. [etc]
dc> Oh, puh-leez. This is precisely the kind of [...]
dc> devoid-of-any-useful-information kind of crap that makes people hate
dc> skeptics -- and as a skeptic, I resent it doubly.
FR> And the fact that his technological explanation (rotational speed!)
FR> for gravity is kid of, um, well, let's say, "non-scientific."
I was wondering about that! I was afraid I'd missed something...
FR> In fact, your comment that Mars could contain enough mass to hold a
FR> breathable atmosphere _is_ entirely correct. Some canyons go down two
FR> miles or more and, were they walled-off, would hold an atmosphere
FR> under enough pressure to be comfortable.
But not at mean ground level? Okay...
FR> the Sun -- very little of the atmosphere would be boosted to escape
FR> velocity by the stellar wind.
So there would be SOME atmosphere "sticking" to the planet at all times?
FR> Also, I don't think Mars has a magnetosphere -- certainly nothing as
FR> dense as the Earth. Stopping the high energy alpha, beta, and gama
FR> particles would be required as well. Ozone might come in handy yet
FR> I'm certain that the atmosphere would have to be layered with lighter
FR> materials.
Either that, or sink a REALLY BIG magnet through the poles... :-)
dc> But I sort of hoped that, whatever words I chose to use, SOMEONE would
dc> actually post some FACTS. Because that's what I ASKED for. I'm leaving
dc> your reply here intact -- can ANYONE out there find a FACT in it?
I thank you for your informative post, and...
FR> Anyone may telephone Edwin C. Krup of the Griffith Observatory in Los
FR> Angeles and ask him planetology questions.
for the source for further info.
FR> if you don't recognize his name, was the narrator for the highly
FR> popular and still shown astronomy series, "Project Universe."
Ah, I think I've seen this on public TV. Again, thanks!
FR> It does have enough mass yet, again, it's a question of pressure.
etc. Basically, what I gather from your post is, Mars is massive enough
to
hold an atmosphere containing enough oxygen for people to breathe, but
except for the deep trenches, not at high enough pressure for most folks
(though enough for some?). And that this problem can be solved by some
sort of face mask - not too big a deal, all other things considered. And
that the major problem is cosmic radiation, not breathability? Am I
following correctly?
dc> I asked a question. Do you have an answer? If yes, please
dc> provide it. If no, please shut the f*ck up and let someone
dc> who has some facts post them.
FR> Be unambiguious and do tell him to shut the fuck up.
Thank you for your support. I greatly appreciate not being treated as a
total moron because I used the word "believe" somewhere in my post. Coming
from someone as high up on the totem pole here, this info-filled and
comradely post is doubly appreciated. Goat bless you!
... Any clod can have the facts, having opinions is an Art.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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--------
From: Dave Campbell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mars - the details
Date: 15 Jul 94 15:10:07
--------
EID:9a92 1cef7940
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e275fe3
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Quoting message
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Campbell
Re: Mars - the details
Date: 10 Jun 94 17:56:05
FR> Mars has two useful moons, Deimos and Phobos
Useful in what way? Our moon is potentially quite useful as well; heck,
without the tides it provides, life on Earth wouldn't be nearly the same!
Not to mention its usefulness in popular music, poetry, etc.... :-)
FR> Mars has polar caps which
FR> contain water which probably holds a high disolved carbon content.
All the Mars-terraforming stuff I've read, mainly in Analog and the like,
refers to this, as well as the rusty/frosty soil and the apparently
water-formed channels, as evidence that Mars at one time held surface
water, and thus atmospheric water as well. At least, that's what I
remember. Am I wrong?
FR> The North cap is composed mostly of water ice and the south of frozen
FR> carbon dioxide.
I wasn't aware (didn't recall) this difference between the north and south
caps.
FR> Mars has an atmosphere already which entertains global dust storms
FR> which have reached speeds of 140 meters per second -- fater than half
FR> the speed of sound!
I knew about the dust storms. One nit -- by speed of sound, are you
referring to the speed of sound on the surface of Mars?
FR> With a denser atmosphere, I'm not sure yet I
FR> believe that the speed would decrease with the denser air pressure,
FR> causing high speed winds at the upper layers and lower speeds at the
FR> bottom.
Watch the use of the b-word! :-)
Thanks again for all the info! BTW, I recently read (buried somewhere)
a
"science fact" article in Analog suggesting the use of "greenhouse gasses"
as a deliberate by-product of terraforming, self-reproducing machinery to
speed up the process. Eh?
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: ANTI-SEMITISM
Date: 17 Jul 94 17:30:08
--------
EID:3dc5 1cf18bc0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 97efd006
On (14 Jul 94) Mea Hewitt wrote to Jeff Freeman...
MH> I know very little about American religious history. my interest has
MH> been mainly in comparative religions and the early Christian
MH> "Fathers."
Ah. Well, just so you don't think I'm some kinda nut.
Fundo's scare me -- especially this recent realization of real political
clout they've discovered. I wouldn't mind so much if they kept it
purely religious, but it seems to me they've replaced God with the
Bible... I just love to point that out and make 'em argue on the grounds
of faith in God rather than faith in the Bible. Always looking for
ammo. :)
Speaking of the early Christian Fathers, though... can we compare and
contrast Jesus Christ and David Koresh?
Ooh... off topic. You on HolySmoke? [do you even care to discuss
this?]
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Fred Garvin
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 17 Jul 94 13:48:03
--------
EID:92af 1cf16e00
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 52e2c0a0
REPLY: 1:106/4106.0 2e253986
On (14 Jul 94) Fred Garvin wrote to Patrick Grote...
FG> PG> Are there really people who still think that the government staged
FG> PG> the moon landing?
FG>
FG> Yes there are. There are also people who believe the Earth is flat,
FG> government can give free health care, and Elvis is alive and well and
FG> living at Burger King.
If Lisa Marie married Michael Jackson, then at last we have concrete
PROOF that Elvis is dead.
[g]
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Pete Porro
Sub: RANA NEWSLETTER
Date: 10 Jul 94 17:23:00
--------
EID:3ad2 1cea8ae0
== Pete Porro Recently commented on RANA NEWSLETTER ==
PP> Rana Newsletter V.1 #1 July 1994 Release
PP> Rana Speaks - Giant Invisible Purple Frogs
Hey, this is such a complete evaluation of the GIPF phenomenon, I am
now a full believer. We are all in danger of annihilation on this planet
if we fail to recognise their presence among us. I am converting my
bathroom in to a GIPF environment this week in readiness for the Big
Coming. I have painted the walls yellow and have planted Chick-weed
next to the driveway.
I hope this is right!
MrZ
... I didn't type it, nobody saw me type it, you can't prove anything!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Don Allen
Sub: SOME PERSONAL STATEME
Date: 10 Jul 94 17:27:00
--------
EID:f453 1cea8b60
== Don Allen Recently commented on SOME PERSONAL STATEMENTS ==
DA> They would stiffle at all cost,
I Stiffled last week and fell over. I got up and tried to Stiffle
again but couldn't. Is this because I am a Skeptidebunker's geek
apprentice? ;-)
MrZ
... I didn't type it, nobody saw me type it, you can't prove anything!
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Gary Quinton
Sub: OIL COMPANIES
Date: 10 Jul 94 20:48:00
--------
EID:1ff7 1ceaa600
== Gary Quinton Recently commented on OIL COMPANIES ==
SZ> == Gary Quinton Recently commented on OIL COMPANIES ==
SZ>Yeah. Those darn oil companies. Somehow, if I were heading a large
SZ>multinational energy company, I'd welcome the ownership of a technology
SZ>that means I didn't have to dig pesky holes looking for that evil
SZ>black guck and pollute the place. No boats, no refineries etc etc etc.
GQ> No profits...
Well, I wouldn't consider that strictly true. The real bottom line here
is that miracle free-energy devices don't exist.
GQ> I know that, but if you _are_ selling oil for refining into fuel,
GQ> then you are not goiong to be happy about a non-fuel burning energy
GQ> source, even if you do manage to buy the rights to it. You'd have to
GQ> charge a huge up front premium to make up for all the lost revenue
GQ> that would stem from not selling petrol anymore, and that would price
GQ> cars out of the market.
Companies evolve, either quickly and survive, or slowly and risk
disappearing. If the technology appears, someone will make it work.
Businesses sell what makes money.
GQ> The price hikes of petrol at the time of the gulf war was a good
GQ> indication of how the fuel companies react to the thought of not
GQ> having enough oil to sell. In australia, we produce more oil than we
GQ> need to run our domestic fleet, but our prices still jacked up because
GQ> our Oil companies were selling their oil off-shore, chasing more
GQ> profits and leaving their domestic customers to pay the international
GQ> price or go without. thanks guys.
It wasn't just the fuel companies, it's the money market people trading
in greed and opportunity.
SZ> Remember, oil companys don't have exclusivity on fuel - coal is
SZ> used for power generation as is nuclear power.
GQ> True, but only for the production of electricity. There are currently
GQ> (geddit?) no successful electric cars, although it is pleasing to see
GQ> that prototypes are already in use in France. They have a range of
GQ> 100km, but take 8 hours to fully charge. Good enough for driving to
GQ> work and back and charging overnight though.
Better batteries are on their way.
GQ> Ooops, I already wrote the above before I read the rest of your
GQ> message. Although I am a firm believer in the Global Secret
GQ> Conspiracy (oops, now it isn't a secret anymore!) I agree with what
GQ> you say about electric cars. I would dearly love to see a battery
GQ> produced with roughly the same capacity as a tank of gas (ie 300+ kms
GQ> per charge).
Me too!
MrZ
... I didn't type it, nobody saw me type it, you can't prove anything!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Hong Ooi
Sub: PHILOSOPHY AND WHY IT
Date: 10 Jul 94 20:54:00
--------
EID:850c 1ceaa6c0
== Hong Ooi Recently commented on PHILOSOPHY AND WHY IT SUC ==
HO> Here is an excellent example of logical exposition.
HO> snipt: < Say "Ah ah ahah ah ah" >
KH>> That 25gm of flatus inaccurately tested in Sweden ?
GR> You have mentioned this arcane number twice, Kimberley. Is it
GR> perchance some worldwide USEnet taunt as would warm the cockles of a
GR> Dac? Or is it merely some lawerese obscurity with which the bewigged
GR> farctate their deflated sense of importance?
HO> Neither , you fact-challenged fundament of froth. It is a "proof" of
HO> the soul of almost Appletonian inadequacy. A team of surgeons weighed
a
HO> person as he died. At one stage , there was an apparent weight loss
of
HO> 25gm.
HO> Therefore the soul exists , because it weighs 25gm.
ROFL! I think this was argued months back in either UFO or here, with
the same "He's lighter so his soul weighs x grams", with the conclusion
that the "science" applied in regards to researh was a touch lacking.
HO> NOT!
Exactamundo!
MrZ
... I didn't type it, nobody saw me type it, you can't prove anything!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Steve Zadarnowski
To: Pete Porro
Sub: NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE
Date: 10 Jul 94 20:59:00
--------
EID:a198 1ceaa760
== Pete Porro Recently commented on NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE P2 ==
PP> that there is a term called a Google (some spellings show Gugle)
PP> which is ONE BILLION TO THE BILLIONTH POWER! The term GOOGLEPLEX,
PP> then, is a GOOGLE to the power of GOOGLE, and this is what is
^^^^^^
You mis-spelt "BIG". I hope this helps.
MrZ
... I didn't type it, nobody saw me type it, you can't prove anything!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: Mea Hewitt
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: ANTI-SEMITISM
Date: 14 Jul 94 20:35:01
--------
EID:8bd4 1ceea460
JF> Mea,
JF> Can you refer me to a good source for information regarding
JF> American Fundamentalism? I am assuming that this is primarily an
JF> American phenom.
I know very little about American religious history. my interest has
been mainly in comparative religions and the early Christian "Fathers."
Just surmising...... America was settled by people fleeing religious
persecution. But they brought their own brand of intolerance with
them. Maybe that is why it is still so strong when most other civilised
countries are much more tolerant. I am speaking now of attitudes not laws.
Also realise that there is a strong germanic thread genetically in
American society. I remember reading somewhere that one in five persons
have German connections. At onetime, after the War Of Independence, I
think that English won over German to be the national language by about
5%
In Australia, for instance, half of the population have Irish blood.
I think this leads for a more rambunctious but tolerant society
mea 8*)
... A bigot will not reason, a fool cannot, a slave dare not.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: John Powell
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:41:00
--------
EID:0b31 1cf14d20
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Dave Halliday to John Powell <=-
DH> JP|That would help. My laptop (non-active color 50MHz) can go about
4
DH> |hours on a charge, which is nice even for a coast-to-coast flight,
DH> but |the recharge is like 12 or 14 hours...
DH> There are even more technologies coming down the road... I subscribe
DH> to a number of manufacturing and trade journals and they report on
DH> stuff that is being developed even before it hits production...
DH> Combine that with specialized ICs for battery management ( charging
DH> and watchdog functions ) and we should see laptops lasting several days
DH> per charge with the batteries being about the size of a cigarette
DH> pack...
That would be _very_ helpful...!
DH> JP| DH> Batteries will last a *lot* longer when these are used.
DH> JP|I think that's strange but I've found that to be right. They
DH> actually |need to be exercised.
DH> There are ( finally!!! ) a few companies making chargers for people
DH> with cell phones that do this. There is one local company whom I
DH> consult for on telecommunications ( very neat case of remote sensing!
)
DH> who builds a charger that I use - has two battery "wells", you swap
DH> from one to the other every day - pop the tired one in and it will
DH> gradually discharge to a safe level and then do a multi-stage charge
DH> tailored for that specific battery! I was replacing my motorola
DH> "classic" battery every 5-10 months and since using one fo these
DH> chargers, it has been over one year and no problems at all...
I have two batteries for my Motorola and I swap them out as one goes
dead and recharge it. But of course that only works if I've got my
briefcase (with the spare battery in it) otherwise I have to use the
cigarette lighter option and sit in the car...
DH> I am pestering them to build one for my large Panasonic SVHS camcorder
DH> equipment... :-)
Good luck!
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Re: FRINGE SCIENCE?
Date: 16 Jul 94 09:39:54
--------
EID:3f42 1cf04ce0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 1126866A
PID: TransAmiga 1.12/g1 7010
KP>> Mostly interpretations, I'd wager. Which
MH> writings did Chopra
KP>> use?
MH> Deepak Chopra is a practising Endocrinologist of
MH> Indian birth.
MH> He was chief fof staff at the New England Memorial
MH> Hospital.
MH> He was the founding president of the American
MH> Association of
MH> Ayurvedic Medicine.
MH> He spent some time in India studying .
MH> I thing you might loose your bet.
So, Mea, you intend to answer the question when? I don't care what Chopr
a "was" once. Nixon was once a president of the US, but I wouldn't count
on h
im as an ethics authority.
Answer the question instead of evading it.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.12g1
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From: Ed Blackman
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: It's a MIRACLE!
Date: 14 Jul 94 17:33:21
--------
EID:3bf2 1cee8c20
MSGID: 1:3634/2.0 2e26239b
On in a message to All, David Bloomberg wrote:
DB> I suppose we could hold out hope for such inquiry, but I think
DB> it would only be false hope. Again, as stated by the _Tribune_,
DB> "the lack of tests has not stopped thousands from streaming into
DB> the Cicero church over the last two weeks to behold the
DB> 'miracle' for themselves."
DB> I realize that many are eager to believe in miracles, but
DB> wouldn't it seem better for _them_ to at least make sure it's
DB> authentic?
I believe you answered that question in the previous paragraph. If the
"crying painting" turns out to be the result of a leaky pipe in the wall
behind the painting or another mundane event, all those thousands of
people would stop coming. It's much safer to do a cursory inspection of
the painting and declare it a "miracle".
And think about the precedent it would set. If scientists can debunk
one apparent miracle, why not others?
Ed Blackman
... Hillary Clinton in an apron is like Michael Dukakis in a tank.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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From: Karen Davis
To: Paul Feonic
Sub: Ghosts
Date: 15 Jul 94 08:46:00
--------
EID:5433 1cef45c0
PF> People have woken up to see a figure hovering over their beds.
> Psychologists call it hypnopompic hallucination.
I have done this in the period just after waking up or that lovely period
when
you are dozing and do not have to wake up. It was always clearly hallucinatio
n to me and related to dreaming.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: I'm not at my Wits end, but I can see it from here.
--- DB 1.51/004670
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From: David Macdonald
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:30:02
--------
EID:3c8c 1cf14bc0
MSGID: 1:232/310 1008a94a
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: 1:232/10 Holographic
Sweet Sue,
I will agree that most New Agers are harmless, mroe or less, but there
are sharks among the sheep and they often find the sheep the easiest prey.
Remember what the "Airplane" schemes did to thousands of New Ager's bank
accounts a few years ago? It was a classical ponzi scheme tricked out in
New
Age warm and fuzzy new speak and it took thousands for millions. I have
not
fear of New Agers, but rather I fear for them. Oh, well, it is their reality
and the perhaps the gene pool needs to be drained somewhat from time to
time!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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From: Kerry Penny
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: NBC pulls another one revisited
Date: 17 Jul 94 01:05:09
--------
EID:9478 1cf108a0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11260DC5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 600b8a81
PID: TransAmiga 1.12/g1 7010
FR> Elizabeth Dukakis, the actress, was the host guru,
That's Olympia Dukakis. Might want to let Randi know.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.12g1
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: UFO Body Counts
Date: 18 Jul 94 07:08:00
--------
EID:f62d 1cf23900
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to John Moore <=-
jm> Are UFO reports increasing? Occasionally somebody's shallow poll will
jm> report numbers of people who believe in UFOs and how many report seeing
jm> them, but that information is rarely coupled with any kind of assessment
jm> of the quality of the reports.
FR> I have often wondered about the number of UFO sightings as they peak
FR> when the nation is stressed-out about something; war and underground
FR> nuclear testing and such things bring about a peak in UFO sightings.
FR> Yet I have to wonder if the number of sightings remains fiarly
FR> consistant while the number of _reportings_ of sightings rises and
FR> falls. I have yet to see a report on unreported sightings simply
FR> because they're... um, unreported. Perhaps stress doesn't increase UFO
FR> sightings. Perhaps stress only increases the willingness to _report_
FR> UFO sightings.
This is an unsupportable claim. Can you pick any 5-year period in the
last 50 years that you think was not stressful?
There is no relationship between 'world stress' (whatever _that_ means
) and UFO sighting reports.
There _is_ a relationship between publicity of UFO sighting reports and
an increase in UFO sighting reports. (Many of which turn out to be
alleged sightings that occurred during a period _prior_ to the reporting
period...)
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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From: Dave Halliday
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Tesla Kooks
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:21:00
--------
EID:8268 1cf252a0
MSGID: 1:343/210 86E3AC3D
TC| TC>Check out the new issue of SKEPTICAL INQUIRER. Great article
| TC>on Tesla, and how there is now a cult which celebrates him.
This is something that really "bugs" a lot of people who actually try to
understand what Tesla was doing and who also recreate his experiments.
At the time that he was doing his research, there was no real mechanism
in place for independent researchers to get funding. No national
science foundation, the idea of a philanthropic foundation was still
a very very new idea ( there was no Income Tax at that time so the
idea of a Tax Deduction was non-existent :-) )
You had to attract the attention of possible sponsors. In Tesla's case,
these sponsors were the major industrialists of that day. He also had
to attract the attention of the media... Even then as it is today, a
nice fat lightning bolt as a very attention-getting device. Tesla was a
flamboyant exhibitor and did some very spectacular "mad-scientist" type
shows for the likes of Westinghouse, Carnegie - even Sam Clemmens ( Mark
Twain )
It is because of this flamboyance that he has become known as the
archetypical "mad scientist" and has attracted the attention of people
whose contributions to scientific exploration really *do* fall into the
mad-scientist category...
TC| SS> Westinghouse Corp., I believe, got rich off Tesla's "kooky" ideas.
Tesla had Westinghouse backed into a bit of a corner too because
Westinghouse's contract with Tesla was for one million dollars PLUS a
royalty of one dollar per horsepower for the complete rights to Tesla's
alternating current development.
The million dollars was not too bad but by the time of Tesla's death,
the buck per horsepower would have amounted to more than the national
budget!
It is interesting though because there are a number of people who are
working at re-creating a lot of Tesla's original work - the coils
especially - but using modern materials for their construction.
Anyway, TTYL - Dave
* QMPro 1.51 * Big talk never compensates for small accomplishment...
--- WM v3.11/94-0125
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From: Dave Halliday
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:17:00
--------
EID:2b14 1cf25220
MSGID: 1:343/210 86E3AC3E
SZ| PP> that there is a term called a Google (some spellings show Gugle)
| PP> which is ONE BILLION TO THE BILLIONTH POWER! The term GOOGLEPLEX,
| PP> then, is a GOOGLE to the power of GOOGLE, and this is what is
| ^^^^^^
|You mis-spelt "BIG". I hope this helps.
Actually, there is a Googol which is 1 followed by 100 zeros and
Googolplex which is 1 followed by a googol of zeros
This number was introduced by US mathematician Edward Kasner who gave
credit to his nine-year-old nephew for the original idea...
* QMPro 1.51 * GURU -- One who knows more jargon than you...
--- WM v3.11/94-0125
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From: Rod Speed
To: Chris Lawson
Sub: Statistics
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:05:04
--------
EID:6262 1ceca0a0
JF> On another note, Talk Radio told me today that "study after study"
JF> has confirmed that viewing violent programs (TV or movies)
JF> *definately* alters the behavior of children. Can anyone enlighten
JF> me here? Maybe name one of the studies and a source for reputable
JF> info? I was under the impression that this myth had been debunked.
RS> Depends on what you call 'alters the behaviour'. Clearly if little
RS> kids run around pretending to shoot each other, many of then can only
RS> have got that behaviour from what they watch.
CL> yeah. most of these sort of claims are put forward by researchers who
CL> went looking to prove a pre-formed opinion.
Yeah, I've actually been watching one religious fundy I know quite well,
an SDA minister or whatever his official title is, do some 'research' on
that question for his Masters degree. Absolutely classic example of
believing something very strongly and setting out to 'prove' it with his
'research'. I'm not convinced you can ever really separate cause and
effect in that situation. You cant distinguish between peoples behaviour
changing because of their TV or movie exposure from society changing and
that change in society resulting in the more violent TV and movies being
popular. Atleast the way he is doing the research, just recording what
you see happening to normal people in society and their viewing habits.
In his case the methodology is severely crippled by asking the people
what their viewing habits are too. Bound to see biased reporting, and
just plain inadequate recollections. I wouldnt have a clue what total
hours per week I spend watching docos for example.
CL> Similarly the "study after study" linking pornography and sexual
CL> violence. Most of these studies were absolute rubbish - but the
CL> methodology ain't important to a crusader.
Yeah, that one is even more of a classic. Its going to be impossible to
separate after the crime whether the person chose to rent the
undesirable movies because of his mentality or if the movies changed his
outlook. Even if you had say a full record of whatever movies he had
seen.
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 12 Jul 94 20:10:08
--------
EID:816e 1ceca140
SD> I am surprised you reply to my messages, as I don't usually reply to
SD> yours.
I dont let trivial details like that worry me |-)
SD> See Mr Speed you may know much in your field, but as far as knowledge
SD> in the area in which I refer you lack knowledge entirely.
Its just an assertion Stew, like all of your stuff. Fields like science
and skepticism are about hard evidence and logical arguments, not
'I know far more than you, so there'. Or just insisting I know nothing
about skepticism, without you having any real way of knowing what I know
about it.
SD> I must admit though my tactic in the science echo was to raise hackles
SD> by using emotive strains in my writing.
Doesnt matter if you admit it or not, the similarity to what you did there
and what you did here on skepticism is just so transparently obvious it
doesnt matter what you admit.
SD> I am most interested in the phycological impact some statements and
SD> topics emote in people;
Sure, it can be interesting to watch stuff like that. I find it quite
interesting to watch the antics of a particular person with the initials
SD as he tears thru a number of echoes and proceeds to howl about how
awful the particular orientation of that echo is. And amusing to watch
peoples reactions to it. Even interesting to watch how many of them
respond with 'just keep taking the pills, Stew' |-)
SD> I have found through observation that I did indeed succeed in getting
SD> to the bottom of peoples barrels of monkeys in the science echo.
And I find it fascinating that you think you did that. It provides a
quite remarkable look into the mental processes of a person like you.
SD> You see you are not alien to the adverse emotional impact that is
SD> felt when you own belief systems are attacked.
I didnt have any adverse emotional impact to your swingeing attacks on
science. What I did find quite interesting was how you could get it so
utterly wrong how science itself actually operates. And I have my own
ideas about why you do.
SD> Perhaps you had the insight to perceive that your own belief system
SD> or fundamental founding in reality is on very shakey ground.
As I said to you over and over again, I dont believe science is actually
on shaky ground. In fact I think the rate of progress of knowledge has
been quite remarkable in just a few hundred years. Sure, there are some
areas which science isnt any use for, like quite a few philosophical
issues, but then its never claimed it is useful there. Something you have
a hell of a problem actually understanding.
SD> I have noticed this, when you did reply so in such authoritarian tones.
And jumping to conclusions on 'authoritarian tones' is also a very real
commentary on your mental processes. In fact science isnt about authoritys
at all, its about rigorous evidence which supports propositions. It doesnt
matter a damn if some bigwig is an FRS or not, what matters is if the
experimental evidence supports the proposition he is espousing. If it
doesnt he is just a silly old fart on that issue. Science is riddled with
examples of that. Rutherford, the father of nuclear science pontificated
that nothing of any practical value would ever come out of nuclear
science. Far wronger than most have been.
Einstein maintained that 'god does not play dice with the universe'. God
may well not, but something sure does.
Tom Watson, the font of IBM, pontificated at one time that the world would
only have a need for 5-10 computers. Everyone would use one of those. One
of the silliest predictions of all time.
Ken Olsen, the font of DEC, pontificated that no one would ever want
computers in the home. Not quite as outrageous as Watson, but pretty
damned stupid never the less.
Shows you just how much faith you can put in authority.
SD> It is fairly much a rule that those who most ardently and stridently
SD> aver to their knowledge of some topic actually underneath it all lack
SD> certainty.
This is completely silly Stew. People ardently maintain the Newtons Laws
have been adequately proven. I dont expect to see them found to be crap
any
time soon. Refined to allow relativistic effects, sure, discarded, nope.
SD> Here you are found to be on very shakey ground. I say again Mr Speed
SD> you are ignorant and lack knowlege. YOu lack insight and awareness
SD> of those things I did refer to. You know much in some areas; but in
SD> others you are a complete ignoramous.
And here you do your usual, resort to blatant sledging as a substitute
for a single logical argument. Ditto for your 'criticisms' of science or
skepticism, not one shred of fact, just flagrant sledging.
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 12 Jul 94 08:51:10
--------
EID:816e 1cec4660
SD> I just read a bit of your scribble and you mentioned coat-tailing.
Its coat trailing Stew, deliberately provocative remarks, designed to
provoke a reaction in the reader.
I bet you read just 'a bit', I believe you, I do, really I do |-)
SD> I assure you that I was not seeking to argue with you, I was
SD> interested in the general reaction my statements would bring. I got
SD> back what I expected.
Thats a bit like jumping into a science or skeptical echo and asserting
that the earth really is flat and that we are all fooling ourselves when
we believe that its round. The reaction is likely to be quite predictable
on the fundamentals. The only real question is how amusing some of the
remarks are likely to be |-)
SD> As for coat-tailing, don't think for a moment that I was seeking to
SD> convert you or other to some strange far-out philosophy; I wouldn't
SD> bother attempting this. You see each to his own, I respect that.
Funny, could have sworn that your swingeing attacks on science and
skepticism were actually quite the reverse of that.
SD> You seem to think you know the ins and outs of life, fair enough.
Well, I certainly think I know a bit about the fundamentals of science
and skepticism.
SD> Don't think that I was attempting to argue you down or something;
Funny, I could have sworn the blatant sledging at the end of the last
one of yours I just responded to was doing just that.
SD> I was just enjoying mucking around with peoples considerations on
SD> science, religion and education. I found it most amusing to hear the
SD> reactions. Some were most displeased.
Most were essentially saying one of two things. You had got the
fundamentals utterly wrong, particularly not being able to distinguish
philosophy and science, and quite a bit of the time your prose was so
confused it wasnt at all clear just what you were trying to say. These
last couple have been quite a bit more readable than some of the worst.
SD> You were of course always correct in your opinions and was of course
SD> dealing with a silly nit-twit like myself who didn't have a clue about
SD> what real science was about. Please keep to your opinion, I have no
SD> problem with it. Whether you are wrong or right makes no difference
to
SD> me. I know what I know.
And if what you think you know about science is at odds with what
everyone else thinks about science, you may well just have it totally
wrong. I know what I think |-)
SD> Nice talking with a materialistic person and getting to the bottom of
SD> the hill of beans that your sitting on.
Vintage Stewart Draper |-)
SD> Mr Speed there will come a time in your life when the evidence for
SD> UFO's and OOBE, reincarnation and other strange phenomena of that ilk
SD> will shake you little world apart.
Dont hold your breath Stew |-)
SD> Please investigate what I have said with an open-mind if you are at
SD> all interested in reality and the truth in life.
And that is precisely what I have done.
SD> I know I am right, and I know that you are wrong.
Best example of an totally open mind I have seen in quite some time |-)
SD> Please don't reply, I have heard it before too many times!
Request denied |-)
--- PQWK202
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--------
From: Stewart Draper
To: Terry Smith
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 11:34:00
--------
EID:3004 1ceb5c40
PID: RA 2.02 147
MSGID: 3:712/619 53bfcbca
REPLY: 3:800/846.23 e1b2d222
EID: dc4b cecb2945
TID: xMail 1.01.0324 001176-043
SD> wasted enough time on a post that said little, and offered no
SD> substantial argument or evidence to back the vuage generalist
SD> claims that were made. Come back when you have something to say.
I suggest if you don't want to waste time on posting replys to messag
es, that you don't post replys to messages: simple! Well as for specifics
as
against generalisations; this is asking for much as you see there is a
limit
to the amount of time that I have to explain. All I am attempting to say
is
that individuals who seek the truth, skeptics or other need to view things
f
rom an entirely individual and objective fashion. They must not be swayed
by
popular culture and fashion, what is considered to be the right thing
at th
e time. They must go out and have a look at something completely and thoroug
hly before saying it is this way. Else if they don't bother to study somethi
ng thoroughly before coming up with a conclusion on it, they may find that
th
ey are only bending to popular beliefs. This is what skeptics are about;
pop
ular beliefs. Now of course as a yardstick the skeptic used materialistic
sci
ence sophism and philosophy of life to understand and view things; there
cou
ld be an error in this method. Indeed I say there is an error in this
method
.
Also another matter is the matter of words. Many would judge a perso
n or topic from the words used. That is whether or not they think the
person
or topic is 'smart' or 'clever'. From my own experience I have found that
t
he mode of communication has little or nothing to do with the truths in
life
in that if it is used to judge something then it is a very poor measure.
Sma
rt and clever and what is true; how do you view and judge these qualities;
fr
om the usage of the English language. Many a baby will tell you that the
tru
th is a far greater thing than silly words can fashion in a sentence.
To find truths search and don't be swayed by the masses who need to b
e agreed with et al. If you are concerned that this message did'nt provide
y
ou with revelant and topical information for your interaction in this area;
t
hen great! I am very happy for you! I have come across silly foolish
and em
otional people whilst communicating they take things is such a moody way!
Th
ese people bore me and I just end up leaving them to their ignorance!
--- xMail/beta
* Origin: Cross Facts BBS Russell Lea +61-2-712-3910 (3:712/619)
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From: Chris Lawson
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: FRINGE SCIENCE?
Date: 14 Jul 94 02:57:40
--------
EID:829b 1cee1720
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 3:635/560.0 2e24e1e3
JH> And as a follow up, rooting in the US is supporting a team while rooting
JH> in this part of the world is participation in sexual congress. A young
JH> Australin exchange student who was in the US at the same time as I was
JH> was asked if she would root for the High School football team. Her
JH> answer mystified her hosts "One at a time or all at once?"
Hi, Jackson
Do you have any evidence for this? If so, I want her phone number ;-)
regards
Chris
--- FMail/386 0.98a
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--------
From: Victor Shuttleworth
To: Chris Lawson
Sub: Statistics
Date: 13 Jul 94 13:27:00
--------
EID:b33e 1ced6b60
TID: IMAIL 1.50b+ BS4
MSGID: 3:632/552@fidonet 228b9dd0
PID: JCQWK 2.01 GAMMA 2
In a discussion between Chris and Rod Speed (Hi. Rod) I would like to
butt in with a 'fact'.
CL>RS> Depends on what you call 'alters the behaviour'. Clearly if little
CL>kids
CL>RS> run around pretending to shoot each other, many of then can only
CL>have
CL>RS> got that behaviour from what they watch.
As a child, born in the first decade of this century, I played 'Cowboys
and Indians' with other boys pretending to shoot them with a gun carved
from wood.
Television wasn't even a word then. We probably got the idea
from the books we read. It may have added to what is innate.
CL>RS> On the more fundamental question of whether a more violent
society is
CL>RS> due atleast in part to watching an endless series of people
shooting
CL>RS> each other on TV etc, I cant see you can ever adequately debunk
it.
How true. Victor.
---
OLX 2.1 TD Ah! Could I but remedy the mistakes in my life.
--- JCQWK
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Chris Lawson
Sub: FRINGE SCIENCE?
Date: 16 Jul 94 10:37:00
--------
EID:62c0 1cf054a0
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e27b8d6
REPLY: 3:635/560.0 2e24e1e3
Hello Chris!
In a msg of Thursday July 14 1994, Chris Lawson mumbled about FRINGE SCIENCE?
to Jackson Harding:
CL> Do you have any evidence for this? If so, I want her phone number ;-)
Where to start :-) This was 15 years ago and I can't even remember which
stat
e she came from (not Vic or NT, as I came from one and moved to the other
and
so knew all the student's from those two).
As for evidence, well a gentleman does not kiss and tell ;-)
TTFN,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Rick Moen
Sub: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 16 Jul 94 15:51:00
--------
EID:1edd 1cf07e60
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e280250
REPLY: 1:125/27 ed26d71b
Hello Rick!
In a msg of Tuesday July 12 1994, Rick Moen was overheard speaking to Jackson
Harding:
RM> Now, many of these sub-groups pretty nearly hate one another on sight.
Not surprising.
RM> Two things have mainly held them together: Being anti-Don-Allen's-echo,
RM> and reaction against the two or three token skeptics who have been in
RM> the echo until recently. If, as seems likely, they proceed along the
RM> current course of discouraging anyone remotely skeptical from posting
RM> at all, most of the impulse for solidarity will vanish. The interesting
RM> question then will be what will they do next?
So rather than participating in their war you want to see what happens when
th
e preliminary jousting is finished and the *real* battles begin for who
sits a
t the top of the table?
RM> In the meantime, I've been finding at least _some_ of the comments and
RM> cross-posts to be interesting (though at times they've been a bit much).
RM> Personally, I'd like to continue to see them -- in moderation.
I agree, they were interesting and at times they were too much, which is
why I
ruled as I did, but I can see your point and the merit in at least peeking
ove
r the fence occasionaly to watch their antics.
OK, previous decision recinded. Those who wish to keep tabs on I_UFO feel
fre
e to do so *within reason* If we start becoming little more than an anthology
of their attempts to purge themsleves of all those horrible skeptics and
the
internecine struggles Rick is so looking forward to I'll change it back
again.
Regards,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
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--------
From: Chris Lawson
To: Lars Janqqvist
Sub: Evolution
Date: 16 Jul 94 01:06:00
--------
EID:36ad 1cf008c0
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e1b7e25
MSGID: 3:635/560 53c5cff8
PID: RA 2.02 1265
> You came close. In fact the clock on the plane ran SLOWER
> as the
> plane was moving faster than the clock on the ground. It
> all has to
> do with speed, not gravity.
Thanks, I just knew I had it mixed up somewhere - but I believe that gravity
also dilates time, so that observers at the bottom of a deep gravity well
wou
ld also run slower cf. zero-gravity.
I hope I haven't just made ANOTHER error!
regards,
Chris
--- FMail/386 0.98a
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: COMBINED EFFORT
Date: 17 Jul 94 03:37:24
--------
EID:6b96 1cf11ca0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e28a975
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 600b8a87
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
Hello Fredric!
Monday July 11 1994 14:05, Fredric Rice wrote to Pete Porro:
>>> It's impossible to fold any sheet of paper more than seven times.
FR>
FR> This one is easy to violate any way. Fold the puppy and then let it
sit
FR> in a cookie sheet filled with water. When it pulps, shake it until
it
FR> settles, let it dry, and then fold it again. One could easilly get
more
FR> than 7 folds.
Or use toilet paper. Non-quilted, of course. No fair cheating by folding
at
the seams!
--- Synchronet/Fastecho
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Don Allen
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 17 Jul 94 03:41:44
--------
EID:4caa 1cf11d20
MSGID: 1:109/601 2e28a9bd
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6190cebe
PID: GED/2 G0615 1039US3
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 7545
Hello Don!
DA> * Forwarded from "ASTRONOMY"
DA> * Originally by Patrick Thibault
DA> * Originally to All
DA> * Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 20:08
DA>
DA> I predict the comet will miss Jupiter! Any takers?
And miss out on all that new 'cosmic space-cloud beings report on the cataclys
mic events unfolding from Jupiter' material from Walter B.?
Not on your life! ;)
--- Synchronet/Fastecho
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--------
From: Mark Harl
To: Matt Nathan
Sub: Sneeze At Light
Date: 17 Jul 94 14:18:00
--------
EID:b627 1cf17240
MSGID: 1:109/120.0 2e293d98
TE> Anyway, 1 in 50 is quite a significant number, giving a
TE> high statistical likelihood that at least one person reading
TE> this should be affected. If you are, please respond. I'd like
TE> to hear about a case of this from the "horse's mouth" as such.
Yes, it has happened to me for as long as I can remember!
/Mark WB3JIG
mark_harl@scc.senate.gov
___
X SLMR 2.1a X Gun Control = A Whole new class of felons overnight.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: TIDMADT 703-765-0822 Wouldja buy it fer a quatah? (1:109/120)
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--------
From: DAVID BARRETT
To: STEWART DRAPER
Sub: RE: SKEPTICAL OF SKEPTICS
Date: 17 Jul 94 04:25:00
--------
EID:4163 1cf12320
TID: FastEcho 1.40 10112
SD> What I was simply stating was that skeptics as a modus
SD>operandi work of skepticism or negative prejudice bases. If you use
SD>concepts and considerations that are rigidly followed to answer the
SD>unknown, you will always get an unknown. There is a use for
SD>skepticism no doubt when others would attempt to lie and cheat. But
SD>there are many unknown phenomena out there that need to be looked at
SD>in a different way. One has to work backwards when dealing with the
SD>unknown; one must question ones own preconceived notions. Finding
SD>the truth is no laughing matter and cannot be done so obviously and
SD>easily as you may think. The truth is out there but you need to
SD>broaden your horizons of understanding if you are to attempt to find
SD>it. I only write to aid you in your search, nothing more. If you
SD>don't accept what I say then ok and don't write me back and tell me
SD>I'm a dill. As this is of no consequence as I know what I know.
SD> The first thing a skeptic does is to relate everything back
SD>to a fundamental known. The problem in this is that the fundamental
SD>known may infact be something different that what it is taken for.
Stewart,
Are you saying that skepticism as a way of reacting to extraordinary
claims is a fundamentally flawed way of dealing with the world? What sort
of disadvantages does a skeptic suffer as compared to someone like
yourself? Are we losing money by not believing that UFO reports mean that
the earth is being visited by alien spacecraft? Are we missing
opportunities for fame and fortune by not believing in ghosts? Please
tell us about the wonderful things happening in your life as a result of
your openness to ideas to which skeptics are closed.
___
WinQwk 2.0b#1203 I tried OS/2 once, but I didn't inhale.
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.02H1
* Origin: Searchlight City -=Planet Connected=- (1:283/420)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: It's a MIRACLE!
Date: 18 Jul 94 17:41:07
--------
EID:e198 1cf28d20
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 4403d5e5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 600b8a85
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Fredric Rice of 1:102/890@FidoN
et writes:
db> I realize that many are eager to believe in miracles,
db> but wouldn't it seem better for _them_ to at least make sure
db> it's authentic?
FR> Par for the course, of course.
Yup... :-(
FR> We have people flocking to and worshipping reflections on bathroom
FR> windows -- which, I need not remind you, disappeared when a porch light
FR> was turned off -- which in turn prompted the must-believers to decry
the
FR> turning off of the light as blasphemy.
I almost wrote, "You've got to be kidding." but then I realized that you,
unfo
rtunately, probably aren't.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 18 Jul 94 17:44:04
--------
EID:b757 1cf28d80
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 4403dc24
REPLY: 1:201/20.0 2e27e3be
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Mia Cline of 1:201/20 writes:
DB> I must have missed this earlier message. What was her research in?
DB> What's her PhD in? Where can I read the results of these studies?
MC>
MC> Parapsychology
How surprising...
MC> and you can read more about her and it in Omni magazine.
Sorry, but I only buy science fiction which is properly labeled as such.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Tim Epstein
Sub: Sneezing in Sunlight
Date: 18 Jul 94 13:19:24
--------
EID:2236 1cf26a60
MSGID: 1:232/310 1008df0c
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Sneezing in Sunlight
I have for a long time sneezed whenever I go suddenly out into the
bright sunlight. I found out a bit about the business from a doctor in
realtion to another phenomenon that I experience and which ended my short
boxing career--sympathetic weeping. Sympathetic weeping is the tendancy
for
the eyes to water excessively from the slightest left jab to the nose.
Just
about everyone's eyes will tear from a decent left jab, but some people,
like
me, will be just about blinded by weeping for up to fifteen minutes after
just alight tap. Needless to say, that is not an advantage for a would-be
boxer. When I went to the doctor about it, he asked me immediately if I
sneezed when I went out in the sun. When I said I did, he said the mystery
was over and there was nothing I could do about either. It seems as if
there
are bundles of nerves that gather up behind he nose and eyes and run into
the
brain. On some people, the nerve sheath is thick and the opening through
which the nerves pass is wide: these people do not sneeze in the sun or
experience excessive sympathetic weeping. On some people the nerve sheath
is
thin and the opening narrow; the nerves are crowded together. Sometimes
there are even small inter-nerve links. The electrical activity of one
nerve
excites the inadequately isolated neighboring nerve. The overstimulated
eye
nerve bleeds electricity into the nerve which controls sneezing, the nose
nerve excites the nerve that controls weeping--or so I remember his
explanation, as given to me some years ago. Whenever I run into a boxer
now,
I ask if he sneezes when he goes out in the sun. I get a lot of strange
looks, and have never found one who does.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: The ultimate skeptic defined
Date: 18 Jul 94 13:19:26
--------
EID:04da 1cf26a60
MSGID: 1:232/310 1009931c
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: The ultimate skeptic defined
I shall bother to disagree with you when you present some testable
hypothesis. So far, to me you seem just to be blathering in a not
particulary coherent or dforganized fashion. Perhaps someone one else will
give a damn.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: David Macdonald
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 18 Jul 94 13:19:27
--------
EID:c8e4 1cf26a60
MSGID: 1:232/310 10052679
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: EVOLUTION
The cross-fertility rule is, like so many other things in the real
world, a handy approximation, but it is not necessarily hard and fast.
A
lion and a tiger can produce, at least some times, fertile off-spring, yet
they are clearly separate (but closely related) species. Even the concept
of
species is clearly human construct, one not absolutely expressed in nature.
For instance, despite quite different adaptions, sevral types of Darwin's
Finches can inter-bread, though interestingly you often end up with a bird
that while healthy and fertile is not adapted to any particular ecological
nitch and so seldom if ever survives long. In short, you questions are
I
think more appropriate for absolute distinctions which do not occur with
such
hard edged definition in the real world. The concepts in question are
pragmatic constructions, not ultimate realities. William of Ockham was
right: words that deal with classes are human-made and inexact; reality
exists only in the individual case.
I hope this makes some sense!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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--------
From: Kerry Penny
To: Pete Porro
Sub: Re: RANA NEWSLETTER UPDATED
Date: 18 Jul 94 06:49:22
--------
EID:9ced 1cf23620
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 11265E72
PID: TransAmiga 1.12/g1 7010
PP> Rana Newsletter V.1 #1 July 1994
PP> Release
PP> Rana Speaks - Warning Ranidae Invasion
:-)
I wonder how they'd take it in I_UFO? I don't get the echo, and Jackson
has taken a stance against the thread, so we might never know. How sad.
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.12g1
* Origin: Ancient Heart -Saginaw MI- 1-517-752-3203 (1:239/200)
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Date: 17 Jul 94 04:21:13
--------
EID:07db 1cf122a0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e29ff1a
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Dave Campbell
just HAD to mention "MARS AND EVOLUTION"
DC> Dr. Gene Scott, whose satellite signal might be receivable from all
DC> points in Fidoland, claims (citing some book I never bothered to write
DC> down the title of) that the ancient Hebrews were red-haired and
DC> freckled; specifically, King David looked a lot like an Irishman.
The wearer of the White Hat And Multiple Glasses has been known to
accidentally drop true facts onto his monologues. I know SEVERAL
Irish folks named David.....
... Umbrage, like a good brandy, is best taken after a pleasant meal.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: realitycheckBBS : 510*527*1662 (1:161/418.0)
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 17 Jul 94 04:30:15
--------
EID:88d2 1cf123c0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e29ff1b
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede David Bloomberg
just HAD to mention "Moon Landing?"
PG> Are there really people who still think that the government staged the
PG> moon landing?
DB> Yes. One of them was posting not too long ago in the UFO echo.
Gee, if they can believe that ETs send ships to Earth, why is it so hard
to buy that **WE** could be the UFOs in the eyes' of the moon men?
... Cry *squeek* and let loose the ferrets of war!
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: realitycheckBBS : 510*527*1662 (1:161/418.0)
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Rod Speed
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 17 Jul 94 16:03:00
--------
EID:b5ea 1cf18060
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Rod Speed to Mea Hewitt <=-
Good morning, Rod.
MH> We are not descended from apes. They are still here. Apes and Homo
MH> sapiens have a common ancestor.
RS> Thats arguable actually. Until you know the full sequence, it isnt
...
RS> It is clear that say cats and dogs really do just share a common
RS> ancestor, but thats less clear in the ape/human area.
Huh?
Are you saying that there's a real possibility that apes and humans _don't_
share a common ancestor?
C'mon, Rod. In fact, humans and cats also share a common ancestor. Go
back far enough, and you'll find a common ancestor for humans and redwoods.
Take care.
... Only dead fish swim with the stream. - Unknown
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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--------
From: Tad Cook
To: All
Sub: Weeping Icon
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:06:01
--------
EID:d205 1cf200c0
PID: RA 2.02 22302
MSGID: 1:343/124 53c86512
Questions of Belief Arise Once Again Over `Weeping Icon'
Insurer, for One, Has No Faith In Large Claim for Jewels Removed
From Picture
By FRED R. BLEAKLEY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
7/15/94
NEW YORK - Church bells tolled in mourning for days over the Greek-
American community in Astoria, Queens, after a band of armed thieves
stole the jewel-encrusted "weeping icon" of St. Irene Chrysovalantou
two years ago. Keep the gold and gems, Bishop Vikentios Malamatenios,
dean of St. Irene's Church, implored the thieves in dozens of media
interviews. Just return the icon.
Five days later, the 6-by-8-inch wooden picture, stripped of its
jewels, came back by registered mail. New York City Mayor David
Dinkins joined the procession of joy in the streets of Astoria.
But now it may be crying time again at St. irene's. The church has
filed a $1.2 million insurance claim for 12,000 stolen jewels, which,
it said, had been donated by parishioners. That claim is being
challenged by Cigna Insurance Co., which told a New York state court
in Queens last month that St. Irene's proof of loss is a "fake and a
forgery".
Controversial Sect
The church contends it has suffered a huge loss, and says there has
been a big misunderstanding about the proof it submitted to the
insurance company.
Controversy has swirled before around the icon and St. Irene's,
a splinter sect of the Greek Orthodox Church that cleaves to a
mystical Greek liturgy, sixth-century Byzantine dirges and the old
Julian calendar. It isn't that anyone questions the devotion of Bishop
Vikentios, 41, and Archbishop Paisios Loulourgas, 49, the two bearded
prelates who founded the church in 1972. But some people here wonder
whether they have applied an excess of zeal to the developmental side
of their calling.
The two men undoubtedly have a flair for it. Bishop Vikentios claims
that in 22 years the domain of the archbishop has grown to 22 churches
in North and South America, with membership totaling 150,000. During
services at St. Irene's, the bishop's rich singing voice, amplified by
loudspeaker, can be heard on 23rd Avenue. Until a few years ago, the
archbishop had a Saturday-afternoon radio show.
In 1988 the two men caused a stir by drawing thousands of worshipers
to St. Irene's to welcome what many thought was a famous icon from
Greece. The church bought a large-print ad in the local Greek press
"Announcing the Miracle-Bearing Icon `Axion Esti' in New York." But in
smaller print the ad said: "The icon, which millions of Greeks
venerated in Salonica and Athens, starting March 6, will be in
Astoria, in an accurate copy, which was painted at Mount Athos." When
it arrived, the icon was held aloft by two priests sitting on the roof
of a white stretch limousine.
The weeping icon of St. Irene Chrysovalantou, an eighth-century
noblewoman who chose a nunnery over marriage to a king, was painted by
a Greek monk in 1919 and brought to Queens when the church was
founded. It wasn't then famous for weeping, but miracles soon began to
be attributed to it. Surrounding the icon now in an enclosure the size
of a telephone booth are several pairs of crutches, a number of
inhaler attachments used by former asthma sufferers, and dangling
tamatas - silver, credit-card-sized emblems signifying bodily ailments
for which a divine cure is sought.
The weeping icon - St. Irene's itself, calls it that on postcards -
arrived from Greece with 302 jewels already attached to it.
Parishioners in the new world continued the tradition of donating
jewels for the icon, either in thanks or in supplication.
Praying for Peace
The icon was on loan to a sister church in Chicago when, on Oct. 17,
1990, at the end of a prayer service calling for peace in the Persian
Gulf, it was perceived by hundreds of worshipers to weep. The icon was
returned to St. Irene's, where it continued to weep for several
months, the bishop says. The faithful and the curious lined up around
the block to get a look, and ugly rumors soon began to fly. Had the
icon spent time in a refrigerator, causing condensation to occur? Had
it been daubed with Mazola oil, as a weeping Virgin Mary statue in New
Orleans allegedly once was?
Bishop Vikentios denies that he or anyone else tampered with the icon,
and volunteers that the New York Area Skeptics club tested it with "a
laser light" as weeping occurred. What did they conclude? "They said
it was a phenomenon", recalls the bishop.
Not exactly, say members of the club, who examined the icon in early
1991. Steve Okulewicz, a Skeptic who is a corporate geologist, says
the group found "smudges" radiating from the eyes that could have
given the appearance of tears when flickering candles were held up to
the icon in the darkened church. "We were all in agreement that the
"tears" were somehow applied to the painting and that we were not
witnessing any sort of `miracle,' he wrote in a report at the time.
Hidden Space
And the jewels? Bishop Vikentios says there were 12,000 of them,
donated over the course of 20 years: wedding bands, gemstones, gold
coins, watches and other items. Some were secured to the border
around the icon, and many more filled a hidden space behind the frame,
he says. All of them, the bishop says, were of high value. "We know
that because several members of our church council work in jewelry
stores," says the bishop. Donated items of lesser value, he says, were
set aside and auctioned off on the feast of St. Irene each August.
Here again, the Skeptics have doubts. Mr. Okulewicz says that at the
time of his examination, less than a year before the theft, the icon
had only about 100 pieces of jewelry surrounding it, none hidden
behind the frame. Having worked previously in the mineral-sciences
department of the American Museum of Natural History, Mr. Okulewicz
says he recognized most of the so-called gems as glass or synthetic
materials that "didn't have true fire or brilliance
of real diamonds and minerals."
Another Skeptic who examined the icon, Jeff Corey, a C.W. Post
College professor of experimental psychology adds: "It looked
tacky, lots of class rings, costume jewelry and stuff you get at
Coney Island when you operate that little derrick kind of game.
Taken at Gunpoint
On December 23, 1991, the icon was taken from the church at gunpoint
by four robbers. It was returned Dec. 28. Two days alter that, the
U.S. arm of the mainstream Greek Orthodox Church, which has been at
odds with St. Irene's for years, issued a press release implying that
the theft might have been an artful hoax. St. Irene s is suing for
defamation.
The bishop and archbishop continue to maintain that a cache of
valuable jewels was present at the time of the theft. They submitted a
translation of a detailed log of jewelry donations to Cigna, the
insurance company, with a request for $1.2 million in reimbursement.
When Cigna's claims adjuster first saw the actual ledger at St.
Irene's a month after the theft, he was immediately suspicious: It
smelled new and wasn't at all dog-eared for a supposedly 20-year-old
book. He called in the New York law firm of Ira J. Greenhill to
investigate the claim on Cigna s behalf.
The Greenhill firm requested that a forensics expert be allowed to
take samples of the ledger. St. Irene's balked, but after considerable
negotiation it did allow photographs. That was enough. Through court
data showing the merger date of the two publishing companies listed
inside the ledger and a signed affidavit from the manufacturer, Cigna
proved that the ledger couldn't have been manufactured before June
1990.
It was all a big misunderstanding, Bishop Vikentios now says. He
explains that in his desire to make things orderly for the insurance
claim, he copied the year-by-year entries from separate scraps of
paper into the ledger after the theft. The bishop "didn't need" the
original evidence anymore, so he burned it. All of which he neglected
to tell the archbishop, who was representing the church in its
dealings with Cigna. That is why the archbishop believed that the
ledger was old, and swore to it in legal hearings on the insurance
claim, both men say.
Cigna has filed a motion to have the insurance claim dismissed. The
church's lawyers say they intend to pursue the claim in court. Says
Bishop Vikentios, "`His eminence and myself have faith in God that
everything concerning the robbery of the miraculous icon of St. Irene
will end with God's will being done, for both the church and the
Christian Orthodox religion.
--- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
* Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Tesla kooks
Date: 19 Jul 94 06:41:00
--------
EID:d8c8 1cf33520
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Rick Moen to Sweet Sue <=-
RM> He also wanted to banish night-time, by electrically stimulating the
RM> upper atmosphere into continuous fluorescence. I'm having a fun time
RM> imagining what environmentalists would say about _that_ effort.
Astronomers might have something to say about that idea too...
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
* Origin: Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence BBS (1:261/1201.0)
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--------
From: David Brown
To: Don Allen
Sub: 12th Planet
Date: 19 Jul 94 22:16:16
--------
EID:4684 1cf3b200
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
07-09-94, Don Allen to All:
[deleted: Walter "Kortron" Bartoo, forwarded from I_UFO, talking
about the fun of cataclysmic death]
WB> When this all happens it's a celebration in my thinking. Just think
WB> after a clean world minus all the half wits unable to evolve and all
WB> the intellectual ones having room to breath and enjoy.
WB> regards Walter.
Springtime, for Kortron, and Orvotron! :-)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
* Origin: The Alien Biker Kat, ZOOMing..! (1:202/1010)
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--------
From: Pete Porro
To: Kerry Penny
Sub: RANA NEWSLETTER UPDATED
Date: 15 Jul 94 11:37:34
--------
EID:b9e8 1cef5ca0
Rana Newsletter V.1 #1 July 1994 Release
Rana Speaks - Warning Ranidae Invasion
Much of this material is from a channeled entity named "Rana" who speaks
to me in dreams and through contact when I meditate. She has been
transfering special wisdom to me over a period of years. I have been
chosen to advise and guide so we can achieve universal harmony and peace
with our space buddies. I have hesitated to release this highly
confidential information due to its controversial nature. The time has
come for all to know the truth. Some of it must remain secret due to
world changing consequences. Only those qualified to handle the facts can
know all the details.
On the question of Ranidae. Some of us have known the truth
about this for quite some time, but it's come to my attention and
my responsibility that I reveal the truth and the background of this
amazing discovery. These are invisible amphibians, which are refered to
in the text as IF or their proper species Ranidae.
We're planning a newsletter with witness accounts, related crop circle info
(another proof, IF's are the true source of crop circles! That's why
no footprints.), and if the Govt. won't come clean I'm planning a hop-in
protest in Washington. Why do you think there is an image of Kermit on Mars?
The IF's put it there after seeing some of our Muppet Movies. They are
here now among us.
A confidential source says he has secret NASA photos of the shadows of
these frogs. Even though they are invisible there are methods of exposing
them in the X-ray satellite photos from space. This has been known since
the first landing on the moon, but hidden from the public by re-touching
the photos that are released to us. The cover-up continues but I know the
truth, and am willing to risk my life telling you about it.
Last week I received a warning from a black frog to stop this expose'
and if I didn't they would come and silence me forever. It's because of
this that I must present all the facts in public before it's too late. I
know I am risking my life, so please listen now before they get me.
I've also heard reports that contact with these IF's can cause time space
continuum leaps and you might find yourself projected into another dimension
o
r
transported instantly to another place, with no knowledge of the leap. Might
b
e
that they are blanking out our memories. I suggest hypnotic regression for
mor
e
proof that these frogs DO exist. It's proposed that IF have the ability
of mind control as well as being invisible to most people.
Even the Bible warns us... (you can check this out if you don't believe
me it'
s
Revelations 16:13) "Then I saw comming from the mouth of the dragon, the
mouth
of the beast, and the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like
frogs. These spirits were devils, with power to work miracles." It's obvious
the dragon is a firey space ship and the frogs are the aliens. The Bible
text
goes on to warn us of the threat. In the face of all this evidence, I challeng
e
any of the Skeptibunkers on this echo to prove that Ranidae don't exist!
Recent translations of newly discovered text from the ancient land of
Ranidae has shed light on the great flood. There are no frogs in
Australia because at the time of the flood Australia was under the sea
and didn't exist yet. The other group called Anura which includes the
toads are different and are our space buddies. Don't be confused by
their similar amphibian traits and appearance. Beware of IF's.
Rana is of the Anura, who are here to save us from our vile rape and
distruction of our planet through unfeeling science. You might start
getting in contact with our true basic nature by hugging a tree for 15
minutes tonight. Remember to listen and feel, and you too will hear the
message the plants are holding for us. Later this year you will have a
chance to cuddle a pumpkin on a vine and see if the pumpkin will respond
to your aura, vibrations and electromagnetic waves.
Q: If they are invisible, how does anyone know they exist?
A: Ranidae merely have the added ability of not reflecting
or absorbing any light when exposed to it to. They are invisible except
for
the chosen few who have seen them. Sometimes they are invisible, but I know
someone who says his cousin saw one once. So just because they are invisible
to the non-believers, doesn't mean those of us who know the truth should
deny the obvious cover-up and conspiracy to hide the IF's from the rest
of
the world. First you need to accept them and their spiritual essence,
only then will you be able to observe IF's. They are not here to help us.
Q: If they are on Mars, the Moon and visit us, why not in Australia?
A: Since the land didn't exist, long ago when the IF started mating
with us and adjusting our future, they didn't find it necessary to
invade that island. We have populated Australia since and carried the
alien seeds ourself. This remote outpost is also hostile enough that
frogs and toads don't wish to spend time there. Also the fact that it
was settled as a prison colony is repugnant even to IF's.
Rana also warns of dramatic Earth changes by the year 2001 which will
coincide with the begining of the next millenium. Some examples are the
global warming, quakes, unforseen violent storms, and numerous natural
disasters. Sinkholes will form in Nevada because of the Sodom and Gomora
nature of people in Las Vegas. Riots will break out and people will be
hearded into concentration camps run by the secret government. The IF
have inflitrated and taken over control. Black helicopters have been
sighted with the symbol of Ranidae and no other markings. It looks like
this: >08< legs on either end and a body with bulging eyes.
Beware of false prophets, they will lead you down a road to distruction
with seemingly truthful wisdom. Remember that things are not always what
they appear to be on the surface. You can only acheive "Universal
Harmony" if you believe and feel. Since we know that everything is
vibrations, the whole universe is a single note. If you break down the
big note, you will find everything resonating in syncronicity, making
the big chord. Down to the smallest object, the entire universe is one,
and perfect "Universal Harmony" can be observed in nature. You must give
up your dischordant actions and become part of the big note.
Rana Says: "It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice!"
Farwell until next time. (c) 1994 Pete Porro, Rana Newsletter. May be
distributed free as long as all credits remain and no fee is charged.
Radio Free Milwaukee BBS - Since 1983 - Paranet XI-Alpha - 1:154/414
Reason for the update is that Rana has informed me that the impression of
the
color purple was in error, and a reflection of the essence. Because of this
an
d the cloaking or mimic capabilities, the IF could be light blue near water,
o
r green near the ocean. Be aware they are not purple.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
)
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--------
From: Mia Cline
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: ghosts
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:42:22
--------
EID:feeb 1cf06d40
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e27e3be
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 43c40bc1
DB> I must have missed this earlier message. What was
DB> her research in? What's her PhD in? Where can I
DB> read the results of these studies?
Parapsychology and you can read more about her and it in Omni magazine.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: Graffiti on the BBS Wall/2 * 317-448-2842 (1:201/20)
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--------
From: Mia Cline
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: ghosts
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:07:10
--------
EID:8284 1cf398e0
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e2c245e
REPLY: 3:800/857 2e26d5f8
MC> She has done her research in Chicago as i
MC> stated before. Her specialties
MC> are in Parapsychology which includes ghosts.
JH> You've answered two parts of four and corrected me
JH> on gender, care to continue?
I am not sure what exactly she is workingone right now because when i was
rese
arching this it was several years ago. however, if you look in Omni magazine
i am sure that her name will pop up now and again.
what were the other parts of your question?
mia
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: Graffiti on the BBS Wall/2 * 317-448-2842 (1:201/20)
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--------
From: John Moore
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: UFO Body Counts
Date: 18 Jul 94 14:20:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307ad7
MSGID: 1:100/435 64808a35
Responding to a claim in an earlier post that UFO sightings are increasing,
I asked aloud if there was any real indication that was true or if
it is an empty claim that supporters are always making. Fredric Rice
added his comment:
FR>I have often wondered about the number of UFO sightings as they peak
when the
FR>nation is stressed-out about something; war and underground nuclear
testing and
FR>such things bring about a peak in UFO sightings.
FR>Yet I have to wonder if the number of sightings remains fairly
consistant as
FR>the number of _reportings_ of sightings rises and falls. I have yet
to
see a
FR>report on unreported sightings simply because they're... um, unreported.
FR>Perhaps stress doesn't increase UFO sightings. Perhaps stress only
increases
FR>the willingness to _report_ UFO sightings.
Maybe. But I'm calling into question the notion that accepting and
adding up sighting reports leads to any useful statistical picture.
Even the true believer literature attempts to make sightings sound
scientifically legitimate by making some sort of disclaimer about
only a small portion being left after normal misinterpretations are
eliminated. The figure varies from book to book. I've seen it as
high as 20 percent, but usually the claim is more like ten percent left
unexplained. In the fifties, believers claimed that BlueBook's 2 percent
unexplained figure was enough to justify belief that something is going
on.
That sounds to me like a number way below the noise level.
Forty years of actively promoting this idea should be enough to develop
a little something more convincing. I am beginning to doubt that a
high level of sightings exists anywhere but in the literature.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
---
* WR [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
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--------
From: John Moore
To: Andy Voelkle
Sub: EXOGENESIS
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:04:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307ad8
MSGID: 1:100/435 64808a36
AV>A good friend of mine is a scientist who thinks that human life on Eart
AV>have had its origins outside the Earth. It's true that amino acids have
AV>found in meteorite fragments, and that complex organic molecules have
b
AV>detected between the stars.
AV>I wonder if there is anything to "exogenesis"?
AV>I'd also like to hear a lot of PRO and CON discussion if there's intere
AV>Anyone?
Is your friend specifically singling out human life? That seems to me to
be pointlessly arbitrary. Since we don't yet know how life originated
any hypothesis is entertainable, and there's nothing inherently impossible
about the original "seeds" coming from elsewhere. But since living
organisms are composed of the same elements found abundantly on this
planet, applying Occam's Razor would suggest that there's little reason
to
give a priority to the organizing principle happening elsewhere. Even if
it did, that alone doesn't tell us anything new about how it came about.
If your friend's notion is that intelligent life is so different
than other biological forms that it had to have developed independently,
then biology doesn't support that at all. We are composed of the same
elements and share the same dna coding as all other life on this planet.
If we did discover that that original coding came to Earth from somewhere
else it would only push the evolutionary scale back a whole bunch of
millenia, but it wouldn't alter anything that we now have confidence in.
As it stands, we have a ballpark estimate of the age of the
Universe and the age of our Solar System, and no particular reason to
believe that there are older planets that got a head start on us. This
is
a discouraging line of reasoning for those who hope to encounter more
advanced lifeforms from elsewhere in the Universe, but it is at least as
likely that any other intelligent life anywhere is no more advanced than
we are.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
---
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--------
From: John Moore
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: GHOSTS
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:07:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307ad9
MSGID: 1:100/435 64808a37
ml> Sorry I should have explained that I am a professional Clairvoyant.
FR>Which is to say that you charge clients money?
ml> I must admit that I am the first person to say that it is a
ml> subject that is better left alone unless you are sure what
ml> you are doing.
FR>What are the hazards of unprofessionals delving into such matters?
The PROFESSIONAL hazards are erosion of credibility and undermining the
going rates charged.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
---
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--------
From: John Moore
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE
Date: 18 Jul 94 15:15:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307ada
MSGID: 1:100/435 64808a38
SZ>== Pete Porro Recently commented on NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE P2 ==
PP> that there is a term called a Google (some spellings show Gugle)
PP> which is ONE BILLION TO THE BILLIONTH POWER! The term GOOGLEPLEX,
PP> then, is a GOOGLE to the power of GOOGLE, and this is what is
A Googol is a one followed by a hundred zeroes. A googolplex is a googol
to the googol power. I wish I could attribute the mathematician who made
it up, but I recall from an article by Isaac Asimov in the fifties than
it was invented to entertain his young daughter. Asimov stated that a
googolplex is so large it exceeds the number of atoms in the known
Universe.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
---
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Don Allen
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 22 Jul 94 17:38:16
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 658dc2e3
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 62884795
PID: FM 2.02
> * Forwarded from "I_UFO"
> * Originally by Sandy Doonan
> * Originally to Walter Bartoo
> * Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 17:28
What fun!
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: Mars
Date: 23 Jul 94 15:22:40
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8218
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e275fe2
PID: FM 2.02
dc>> Oh, puh-leez. This is precisely the kind of [...]
dc>> devoid-of-any-useful-information kind of crap that makes
dc>> people hate skeptics -- and as a skeptic, I resent it doubly.
FR> And the fact that his technological explanation (rotational speed!)
FR> for gravity is kid of, um, well, let's say, "non-scientific."
dc> I was wondering about that! I was afraid I'd missed something...
I like the fact that you "policed your own" above. Perhaps
the
individual was thinking of the Earth's magnetosphere.
By the way... Are you planning a trip to the God of War? If you're
going to Mars, let me know as I know a few people who would like to go along.
FR> In fact, your comment that Mars could contain enough mass to hold a
FR> breathable atmosphere _is_ entirely correct. Some canyons go down two
FR> miles or more and, were they walled-off, would hold an atmosphere
FR> under enough pressure to be comfortable.
dc> But not at mean ground level? Okay...
I don't think it can.
FR> the Sun -- very little of the atmosphere would be boosted to escape
FR> velocity by the stellar wind.
dc> So there would be SOME atmosphere "sticking" to the planet at all times?
There already is. I had the numbers in my hot little hands... I'm in Ohio,
though, on business right now so my library is out of reach. There is an
atmosphere on Mars. The dust clouds that rage across the planet at times
are
carried on a thin wind yet it's traveling at speeds exceeding that of sound.
FR> Anyone may telephone Edwin C. Krup of the Griffith Observatory in Los
FR> Angeles and ask him planetology questions.
dc> I thank you for your informative post, and...
dc> for the source for further info.
It seems that nearly all observatories like to answer such questions.
Those with the biggest blowhards seem to like to talk a subject to death.
FR> It does have enough mass yet, again, it's a question of pressure.
dc> etc. Basically, what I gather from your post is, Mars is
dc> massive enough to hold an atmosphere containing enough oxygen
dc> for people to breathe, but except for the deep trenches, not
dc> at high enough pressure for most folks (though enough for some?)
dc> And that this problem can be solved by some sort of face mask -
dc> not too big a deal, all other things considered. And that the
dc> major problem is cosmic radiation, not breathability? Am I
dc> following correctly?
I think that this is my position. The costs would be so overwhelming
that there would need to be a very real motivation for making the attempt.
It
is by far cheaper to put domes up. I don't think I've ever read anything
on
how well such domes would survive the strong winds.
Mile deep trenches also afford other benefits. Water vapour could be extracte
d
from the air rather than having to be brought by cannals from the poles
--
ironically believed to exist at one time. (Indeed, a queen of England once
offered a reward to anyone who could communicate with people on other
planets... with the exception of Mars as, "that would be too easy.")
dc>> I asked a question. Do you have an answer? If yes, please
dc>> provide it. If no, please shut the f*ck up and let someone
dc>> who has some facts post them.
FR> Be unambiguious and do tell him to shut the fuck up.
dc> Thank you for your support. I greatly appreciate not
dc> being treated as a total moron because I used the word
dc> "believe" somewhere in my post.
Don't say __that__ word! It bespeaks of evil! I dislike the word
when used in the phrase, "Scientists believe..." Scientists believe that
the
electron has a negative charge and that the poiston has a negative charge.
The
fact that they're right doesn't detract from the fact that they believe.
dc> Coming from someone as high up on the totem pole here, this
dc> info-filled and comradely post is doubly appreciated.
"High up?!" I'm a vegetarian programmer! I'm about as low on the feed
chain
as, er, um, well, Rick Moen! Seriously, though, I just had the references
at
hand.
dc> Goat bless you!
And may you Wash clean and dwell within the Green Pastures.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: Mars - the details
Date: 23 Jul 94 15:23:02
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8219
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e275fe3
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Mars has two useful moons, Deimos and Phobos
dc> Useful in what way? Our moon is potentially quite useful as well; heck,
dc> without the tides it provides, life on Earth wouldn't be nearly the
dc> same! Not to mention its usefulness in popular music, poetry, etc....
:-)
And in wolfman lore! I can't help but think of Stephen King and his book,
"Cycle of the Warewolf." It's got some vivid, bloody drawings that are
perfec
t
for King's deep-seated psychosis. <-heh-> Yetch! It's even worse since
I'm
a
vegetarian. I was greatly annoyed that the warewolf lost. It
wasn't
his fault that he was a warewolf.
The moon of Mars can be used as reaction mass for orbital billards around
the
planet. They afford good platforms for instrumentation as well since they
hav
e
very gravity -- however low. (My books didn't tell me.) I would need to
look
at a chemistry book yet as I recall, the carbon on the moons can be cracked
to
acquire water and oxygen. The silicates can be used to create support
structures for laboratories and stations. Rather than having to bring
materials along or boost them out of Mars' gravity well, we have a stash
of
materials waiting in orbit for us already.
There might be exotic materials in the moons yet I can't recall ever reading
anything that might prove useful other than the mundanes... iron, perhaps,
yet
I don't know.
FR> Mars has polar caps which contain water which
FR> probably holds a high disolved carbon content.
dc> All the Mars-terraforming stuff I've read, mainly in Analog and the
dc> like, refers to this, as well as the rusty/frosty soil and the
dc> apparently water-formed channels, as evidence that Mars at one
dc> time held surface water, and thus atmospheric water as well. At
dc> least, that's what I remember. Am I wrong?
There are definite fluid channels, yeah. It's a shame that we missed running
water by several millions of years. The atmosphere does contain water still
yet it might spark an international desire to put a population on Mars had
there been rains and rivers. Alas there was at one time. The only reason
I
can think of to land a population on Mars to face the hardships would be
to se
t
aside human seed against the day Mr. Comet and his friends Calvin decide
to
drop in for a visit. Yet that requires a genetically viable number of species
members and that would be very costly.
FR> The North cap is composed mostly of water ice
FR> and the south of frozen carbon dioxide.
dc> I wasn't aware (didn't recall) this difference
dc> between the north and south caps.
Strange, huh? Both have muge masses of oxygen tied up in their molecular
structures which might be liberated for our use. It would be massivly costly,
too, unless we can convince bottle water companies to invest in the natually
carbonated ices Mars has to offer.
FR> Mars has an atmosphere already which entertains global dust storms
FR> which have reached speeds of 140 meters per second -- fater than half
FR> the speed of sound!
dc> I knew about the dust storms. One nit -- by speed of sound, are you
dc> referring to the speed of sound on the surface of Mars?
The speed of sound on Earth at sea level. I don't know how quickly sound
wave
s
propagate on Mars. I wonder if it does.
FR> With a denser atmosphere, I'm not sure yet I
FR> believe that the speed would decrease with the denser air pressure,
FR> causing high speed winds at the upper layers and lower speeds at the
FR> bottom.
dc> Watch the use of the b-word! :-)
Drat! And I was so convincing, too! }:-}
dc> Thanks again for all the info! BTW, I recently read (buried
dc> somewhere) a "science fact" article in Analog suggesting the
dc> use of "greenhouse gasses" as a deliberate by-product of
dc> terraforming, self-reproducing machinery to speed up the process. Eh?
"Von Neuman machines?" Is that what they call them?
It might be better to take Venus' reducing atmosphere and seed it with blue-
green alge and stir for a half a billion years.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: It's a MIRACLE!
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:33:39
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8214
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 4403d5e5
PID: FM 2.02
FR> We have people flocking to and worshipping reflections on bathroom
FR> windows -- which, I need not remind you, disappeared when a porch light
FR> was turned off -- which in turn prompted the must-believers to decry
FR> the turning off of the light as blasphemy.
db> I almost wrote, "You've got to be kidding." but then I
db> realized that you, unfortunately, probably aren't.
I ain't. In Los Angeles where economic woes enslave the masses to religion,
p
eople were convinced that a diseased tree had a picture of the "Mary" Goddless
on it. The fungus growing on the diseased tree looked nothing like a human
b
ut, with a little imagination, one could become convinced it was a woman
weari
ng a sheet.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: ghosts
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:36:30
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8215
REPLY: 1:2430/2112 4403dc24
PID: FM 2.02
DB> I must have missed this earlier message. What was her research in?
DB> What's her PhD in? Where can I read the results of these studies?
MC> Parapsychology
db> How surprising...
Is it my imagination or are such degrees handed out like popcorn at a movie
house?
MC> and you can read more about her and it in Omni magazine.
db> Sorry, but I only buy science fiction which is properly labeled as such.
Omni sure became a disappointment. When it first came out, it had value.
As
the need to fill the available article space else die a publishers death
loome
d, quality materials gave way to pop-mysticism and nonsense.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Weeping Icon
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:48:08
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8216
REPLY: 1:343/124 53c86512
PID: FM 2.02
> It was all a big misunderstanding, Bishop Vikentios now says. He
> explains that in his desire to make things orderly for the insurance
> claim, he copied the year-by-year entries from separate scraps of
> paper into the ledger after the theft. The bishop "didn't need" the
> original evidence anymore, so he burned it.
Why do I have the feeling that, in the past, he would have been believed?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: John Moore
Sub: GHOSTS
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:57:30
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 660e8217
REPLY: 1:100/435 64808a37
PID: FM 2.02
ml> Sorry I should have explained that I am a professional Clairvoyant.
FR> Which is to say that you charge clients money?
ml> I must admit that I am the first person to say that it is a
ml> subject that is better left alone unless you are sure what
ml> you are doing.
FR> What are the hazards of unprofessionals delving into such matters?
jm> The PROFESSIONAL hazards are erosion of
jm> credibility and undermining the going rates charged.
No fair. I asked him first.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Michael Shermer
Date: 23 Jul 94 21:53:42
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6613e065
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Rick!
I just heard a nasty rumor that Mr. Michael Shermer has bought America On-Line
and will be joining the environs of the damned here in cyberspace.
I
ndeed, I just faxed to his offices a copy of the CSICOP mailing list. It
woul
d make sending articles in for submission to publication easier.
Another rumor is that he uses a Mac.
...the horror...
...the horror...
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: ICR Nonsense
Date: 24 Jul 94 12:35:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6689c2d2
PID: FM 2.02
Dt: Sat 16 Jul 94 20:06
By: LARRY SITES
To: CSICOP Mailing List
Re: ICR Luna(tics)
---------------------------------------------------------------
In an attempt to rip off the 25th aniversity of the moon
landing, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) has
produced a half hour radio show called "Apollo, Quest for
the Moon". Hosted by Jim Long and Vanessa Hodge it includes
comments from several people involved with the project as
well as several ICR shills.
First they make out Werner Von Braughn as a bible believing
creationist.
Next, Pratt Johnson, one of the 3 engineers quarantined with
the returning astronauts, says that the Moon rocks are
basically the same as Earth rocks. The ICR's Gish mumbles
that there was no danger of extratrestial germs because
Earth is the only place of life.
After astronaut Charlie Duke, now a Christian, waxes poetic
about his now Christian vision of the trip, Walter Hersch
claims there is no clock to set radiometric dating by as
there was no one there at the beginning of the universe.
Then the ICR's physicist from Grace College, Dr Deyone
Deyon (sp?) takes over. He says that perhaps radiometric
dating is open to interpretation because atoms can migrate
into or out of rocks. And further that because of tidal
breaking effect that the moon is 1 1/2 inch further from the
Earth each year, that it would touch the Earth only 1.4
billion years ago.
He goes on to explain that each of the scientific
explanations for the moons origin have problems and concludes
that not only is the Biblical explanation for the moon as a
sign and season indicator correct, but it also contributes to
the health of the Earth through its tidal effect and angular
stabilization effect, thus it is an obvious evidence of design.
The ICR concludes by offering a free publication, "The Moon,
Creation, and Composition" by calling 1-800-743-6374, for
more details.
Peace, Larry
___
* WR # 398 * I like -made .
+ Origin: The Open Forum SD CA (619)284-2924
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
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