God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Sweet Sue
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: The end?
Date: 12 Jul 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:ff3b 1cec8a00
JF>Well, okay... lesse... bear with me, it's an old dictionary and the
JF>pages are starting to stick togeter. Ah! Here it is:
JF>"A visible mass of particles of water or ice in the form of fog, mist
or
JF>haze suspended usually at a considerable height in the air."
JF>Well, shoot... I knew *THAT*.
Clouds.
þ SLMR 2.1a þ It didn't rain today. Am I still in Washington?
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From: Sweet Sue
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Sweet sue
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:20:00
--------
EID:3016 1ceb9280
DP> > DP>After reading your posts to Sweet Sue, i'm moved to ask when the
DP> > DP>wedding will be.
DP> > Well, I _had_ to be nice to _somebody_. I have a quota to meet,
DP> > after
DP> > all. ;-> Besides, I don't know if our chakras are
DP> > compatible... or
DP> > something.
DP> > Seriously, I think I find Sue's posts refreshing because (1) she
DP> > writes
DP> > well, (2) _very_ forthrightly and clearly, and (3) often with
DP> > considerable style. I'd far rather converse with someone like
DP> > that with
DP> > whom I frequently disagree, instead of with some muddled,
DP> > wishy-washy, colourless author whose opinions I share.
DP> > However, I've already been engaged to one Iris, and one's
DP> > plenty. ;->
DP>But couldn't you have Sweet Sue too, say in another reality?
Only if I'd had nothing to say about it! ;-)
þ SLMR 2.1a þ I'm young in heart--slightly older in other places.
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From: Sweet Sue
To: Ken Stuckas
Sub: Testing another claim
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:35:00
--------
EID:3beb 1ceb9460
KS>-=>While eating a book entitled "Testing another claim",
KS> Sweet Sue mumbled:
KS> SS> And why I got nauseated is at the thought that there really are
people
KS> SS> that are so suggestible that they could actually be programmed to
yawn
KS> SS> by such a simple statement.
KS> Well, Sue, you might have noticed that effect at
KS> some time in the past if you had ever someone
KS> in your life to stay up late with. 8*O
Fortunately, there are times and people I stay up late with. Making a
written statement about yawning and watching to see if yawns are
evoked seems to me quite a different matter than witnessing others
yawning, and at a late hour.
<> Only I can't, at the moment, figure out why or
how they're different! :-)
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Massage...it's nice to be kneaded.
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From: Sweet Sue
To: John Moore
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 13 Jul 94 22:56:00
--------
EID:94ea 1cedb700
JM> SS> On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unavoidab
JM> SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they < SS> chose to be hurt.
Please note the words "they <>..." We are all co-creators.
Unless, of course, one's actions would affect only oneself.
JM>I do not care for the rude and destructive style of argument dubbed
JM>FLAMEing, but I'm having trouble containing myself enough to respond
in a
JM>polite manner to this. Transferring to the recipient of some hurt the
JM>responsiblity for bringing it on themselves, even though you concede
to
JM>having been the agent, absolving yourself for any and all responsibility
JM>for being a party to that hurt, is a selfish and disgraceful perversion
of
JM>the process of reasoning!
I did not say or intend to imply I was absolved of any responsibility.
As to 'selfish,' if the word is taken to mean "being about the business
of taking care of Self," yes, it is.
JM> I have no desire to trample on anybody's philosophy or religion or
JM>"personal vision" that at least embodies some sort of moral sense, but
this
JM>attitude completely lacks such a notion. It is far wierder and beyond
my
JM>comprehension than the rationalizations put forth by philosophies candidly
JM>based on hatred like the Nazis, the Klan or any other Phobes.
JM> Sue, I don't want you to go into convulsions of guilt over my
JM>distress, but please give some serious thought to the idea that your
JM>responsibility as a member of the human race extends beyond the boundaries
JM>of your own interests.
I think I understand the source of your distress, as I very much
understand how weird a statement like "create your own reality" can
sound when removed from the context of a ideology. I have been
there. On first encountering this concept, I reacted in much the same
way as you have, mainly, because that's the way most people seem to
already live their lives...placing blame everywhere and anywhere but
squarely on their own shoulders.
It's taken many years of emotionalizing, questioning, observing and
<> the words to pull into a practical framework. It is said
"experience is the best teacher." I would add, it is the <>
teacher, for until something is experienced, it cannot take on
definition, color and dimensions that remove it from the realm of mere
philosophy.
IMO, each of us daily bears witness to the fruits of 'creating one's own
reality,' whether those fruits are bitter or sweet. Of course, in the
wrong hands, almost any concept can be perverted beyond recognition.
Suffice to say "transferring"--a word you used above--is the key word
to what I am calling your misperception. As engage in 'creating my
own reality,' there is no place for "transferrence" of responsibility.
However, I am responsible for what you do, feel, think and/or
say resulting from my actions. How another reacts is their own
responsibility--solely. The only one to whom I have responsibility is
to me.
"Responsibility" is another key word interpreted variously by everyone
I've ever met. IMNSHO, if each of us were to busy ourselves taking
responsibility for our own garbage and cleaning up our own houses, none
of these explanations would be necessary.
Assuredly, I've not gone into paroxyms of guilt over your distress--but
I'm not clear at all what, specifically, distresses you about it. The
analogizing of Nazism, Klanism and/or other phobics to the "weirdness"
of creating one's own reality is lost on me. Is that to say that, to
some extent, you can understand hatred-based atrocities, but you can
understand one who takes responsibility for their own
lives/actions?
Wish I had one really punched-up sentence to clear up any confusion for
you--unfortunately, it just ain't so and would take volumes. For any
example I could come up with seems, at first, contradictory. It is only
in the framework of a total ideology that it makes sense--at least, to
me.
Best wishes,
Iris
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Know thyself!
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From: Sweet Sue
To: David Macdonald
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 13 Jul 94 23:12:00
--------
EID:4269 1cedb980
DM> I would suggest that "all" New Agers are out to "live it up" at
others
DM>expenses, but rather that some certainly are and that the notion that
one
DM>creates one's own reality is conducive to the exploitation of others.
The
DM>parallels in history are clear; consider the caste system of India, which
DM>held that if one were of lower cast, it was due to transgression in a
past
DM>life. One was, thus, justified in treating the lower casts like dirt
since
DM>they were but sinners suffering appropriately for their sins. Similarly,
t
h
DM>New Age notion allows the New Ager to do anything and claim that any
appare
n
DM>harm is not his or her doing, but rather the reality constructed by the
DM>apparent victim. It is the ultimate form of blaming the victim. No
one is
DM>criminal; the victim has just him or herself to blame. That is dangerous
a
n
DM>potentially very, very harmful to many people.
To the extent that some so-called New Agers take this notion and apply
it in ways destructive to others, aggrandizing to self, I agree.
Hinduism is not new thought, although some portions of Hinduism may be
included in new thought.
How I think, reduced to a this-level reality (often called the "real
world"), also incorporates an interpretation that, in a society with
laws, when one breaks those laws, one must bear the consequences
(taking responsibility). If caught and convicted, one then bears the
label "criminal."
To put this in a this-reality perspective--we all are co-creators. That
the 'victim' may have chosen on some level to experience whatever
unpleasantness occurred <> the cooperation of another, in this
case, the 'criminal.'
I think it would be more appropriate that your wariness be pointed in
directions other than towards so-called New Agers, most of whom are
benign. Fortunately, there are relatively few who pervert the concepts
in such an exaggerated fashion as you depict.
þ SLMR 2.1a þ Believing in yourself is the beginning of wisdom.
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From: Lewis Marvich
To: All
Sub: Re: I_UFO and their rules
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:03:37
--------
EID:36a4 1ceba060
-=> Quoting Jackson Harding to All <=-
JH> If they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be
JH> it, but we don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
Absolutely. If there are problems they should be handled at what
ever level is appropriate; SYSOP, FIDO, etc.
Participants of both echoes tend to have directly opposing
viewpoints and "Preaching to the heathen", as it were, will
accomplish nothing.
... Have tree, will climb - just as all my ancestors did.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Lewis Marvich
To: ALL
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:05:25
--------
EID:dac2 1ceba0a0
What does being "right" or "wrong" have to do with being a skeptic?
As I understand skepticism, one very necessary thing is not to
prejudge a new idea or concept. You are supposed to gather proof either
for or against, until a consensus of trained and educated people agree
that an idea is valid or invalid. Is this not so?
At one time the idea that "invisible bugs" could make a healthy person
ill or kill them was scoffed at and ridiculed. The supporters of the
"Germ Theory" were able to gather the proof they needed for their idea
to gain acceptance.
Angels, demons, extra-terrestrials, U.F.O. abductions or succubi; I do not
reject these ideas _or_ support them without repeatable proof.
Saying that most who do support fringe science are stupid, ignorant and
crazy is again prejudging. Just as someone who claims that anyone who
doesn't believe in their U.F.O.s are dupes of the government, or lying
participants in the "conspiracy", is guilty of the same.
A willingness to change a previously held idea or theory is just as much
a part of being a skeptic as trying to de-bunk false ideas.
That is all I wanted to ask/say. I look forward to responses.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Mia Cline
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: ghosts
Date: 09 Jul 94 14:11:14
--------
EID:3db6 1ce97160
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb002
REPLY: 3:800/857 2e1499ed
JH> OK, who is Dr Maher, what are his qualifications,
JH> where is he working at the moment and what are the
JH> highlights of his academic career to date?
She has done her research in Chicago as i stated before. Her specialties
are
in Parapsychology which includes ghosts.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: Mia Cline
To: Laurie Hunter
Sub: ghosts
Date: 09 Jul 94 14:14:12
--------
EID:ca93 1ce971c0
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb0b4
REPLY: 1:2401/123 53b29424
LH> are ghosts who are out there just trying to scare
LH> people but they are pretty harmless.
i agree.
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: John Jeanneault
To: ALL
Sub: RAPE OF THE PLANET
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:57:15
--------
EID:a901 1cebaf20
MSGID: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 41d75e4f
PLANET PLUNDERING AS OLD AS UR, ARCHEOLOGISTS SAY
By Thomas Maugh II Toronto Star July 2, 1994
"Theory that people in pre-industrial ages lived in harmony with environment
is eroded by the facts."
LOS ANGELES - When Dutch explores landed on Easter Island in 1722,
there was not a single tree.
Most ecologists assumed the isolated Pacific island, now known as
Rapa Nui, had always been barren. Recent studies, however, reveal that
it once was covered with lush forests that were slashed and burned
when humans moved there about A.D. 500.
The rape of Rapa Nui, archeologists are now discovering, is not
unique. Whereas environmentalists and historians once believed that
early humans lived in harmony with their environment, growing evidence
reveals that people have plundered the Earth wherever and whenever
they have lived.
From the first civilizations along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers,
in what is now Iraq, to the Mayan empire of Central America, experts
are beginning to agree, people have pillaged natural resources,
denuded forests and sterilized fields with unwanted salt.
Environmental devastation, it would seem, has been an almost
inevitable companion of civilization.
And today, as society faces environmental problems ranging from
deforestation and loss of biodiversity to salinization of farmland,
many archeologists believe society can profit by studying where these
civilizations went wrong. "We can look to the past to see the future,"
says Charles Redman of Arizona State University.
The hallmark focus of this generation is a redefining of
archeology" from a rather abstract pursuit to one that has direct
impact on day to day concerns Redman says.
"We have to make the point that archeology is more than just an
indulgence of a rich society," adds Don Rice of Southern Illinois
University. "We really do have something to say to future
generations."
Increasingly, archeologists are concluding that human folly had more
to do with the collapses of many civilizations than climate changes
caused by global warming or cooling.
One impetus for the new approach is the deforestation of Central and
South America and the accompanying loss of biodiversity, a broad and
complex abundance of species in such wilderness areas. Ecologists
argue that biodiversity must be maintained because it provides a
potential source of drugs, foods and other products that will be
invaluable to future generations.
Another important issue facing all nations is the degradation of
soil quality, which ultimately threatens a society's ability to feed
itself.
Emerging recognition of the unintentional destructivness of past
civilizations is blasting apart "the escapist idea of the primordial
paradise," that pre-industrial societies were composed of great
environmentalists who lived in harmony with their surroundings. Redman
says, "We're no different than they were thousands of years ago. What
we need is to learn to cope with our environment, not to purify
ourselves."
One key to destroying these myths is the relatively new science of
paleolimnology, the study of lake sediment. As silt from rivers and
streams collects in lake bottoms it carries pollen, ashes, eroded soil
and other characteristic markers that provide a time-ordered history
of a region.
By studying pollen in sediment dating from a particualr period, for
example, researchers can tell what types of vegetation grew naturally
and what was raised by farmers. The disappearance of tree pollen is a
strong indicator of deforestation. another is the supplanting of wood
ash by ash from animal dung, which is commonly burned when wood is
unavailable.
These kinds of studies "have revolutionized our understanding of the
past," says Patrick Kirch of the university of California at Berkeley.
Within 700 years, he says, the population of Rapa Nui had grown to
10,000 and the landscape was "virtually treeless." Traditional
archeological techniques, including fossil excavation showed that many
animals had been killed off, as "a direct result of human actions,"
Kirch says.
One of the chief lessons to be learned from early societies, Redman
says, is that farmland deteriorated when agriculture was centrally
controlled by the government, as is the case today in Russia, China
and some developing countries, rather than by local farmers who knew
how to maintain soil quality.
Soil salinization caused by extensive irrigation also played a major
role in the downfall of several societies, begining with Mesopotamia in
the Middle East. Salinization is caused by the accumulation of mineral
salts when irrigation water evaporates. As the concentration of the
toxic salts increases, farming becomes more difficult.
By 2000 B.C., the Ur III dynasty was flourishing in the southern
half of Mesopotamia, which comprised cities with tens of thousands of
inhabitants.
As the soil became more saline, recent sediment studies have shown,
agriculture shifted from wheat to the more salt tolerant barley. The
society became dependent on imported grains before collapsing under
the burden of overpopulation. One of the last written records from Ur,
Redman says, is a plaintive message from the king to one of his
functionaries in the hinterlands; "Where is my shipment of grain?"
Salinization also spelled the doom of the Hohokam, who lived in
central Arizona, in the area centered on presentday Phoenix, from the
time of Christ until about 1400. Conventional studies have recently
shown that the Hohokam constructed elaborate irrigation canal systems
according to Glen Rice of Arizona State University. Their civilization
collapsed, like that in Mesopotamia, when the soil became too salty to
support agriculture, a condition that persists today.
"This sounds painfully like what is going on today in California
and many other farming regions around the world," Don Rice says.
Salinization can be countered by reducing irrigation and by growing
crops that require less water. Such changes are not being made, he
says because short term profits still outweigh long term environmental
consequences.
Perhaps the greatest romance has surrounded the Central American
societies of the Aztecs, Teotihuacan and Maya, complex societies that
created their own written language, built massive temples and
architecturally sophisticated cities, perfected intensive agriculture
and developed astronomy. They flourished for more than a millenium
until, one by one, they mysteriously collapsed, with the Maya being
the last to fall, around A.D.900.
The demise of the Maya, who once dominated large regions of what are
now Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador, has been particularly
intriguing.
A variety of recent evidence suggests that internal warfare played a
major role in the collapse, but many researchers believe that
environmental problems were at the root of that warfare.
Recent studies by Don Rice have shown that the Maya had destroyed
more than 80 percent of the region's forests by the time of their
demise in the 1600's. Loss of forest, in turn, speeded erosion,
slashing farming productivity and reducing the ability of individual
city-states to be self-sufficient. By the time the Spanish invaded,
the Maya had lost 75 percent of their population.
The remaining people were slaughtered by the Spanish or succumbed to
disease inadvertently introduced by the invaders. Ironically, the
Spanish conquest proved to be a remarkable stimulus to the
environment.
Freed from the burdens of overpopulation, vegetation exploded,
producing rain forests that had not existed during the time of the
Maya.
But the picure painted by archeologists is not entirely gloomy. "The
upside is that many societies, like the Maya, were around for a very
long time," Redman says. "Some did strikingly well for hundreds of
years,. We need to learn from them."
Los Angeles Times.
--- April V0.994PBeta
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Mack
Date: 10 Jul 94 23:30:00
--------
EID:caf2 1ceabbc0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 439d92cc
The following is an article from the June '94 issue (Vol. 2, #6) of The
REALL
News. It may be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper
c
redit is given. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any
public
ation that reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may
also
be cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences.
This article represents the opinions of its author, and does not necessarily
represent the opinions of REALL or its officers.
=============================================================================
REALLity Check
by David Bloomberg
<...>
FMS Lawsuit
One of the biggest pieces of news to hit this past month
was the result of a false memory syndrome-related lawsuit.
This suit involved, for the first time, the person accused
of sexual abuse (Gary Ramona) suing the therapists of the
person making the charges (his daughter, Holly).
Briefly: Holly sought help from a therapist for bulimia.
The therapist wrongly told her that 80% of eating disorders
are caused by sexual abuse. Thus started a whole series of
events leading to the use of sodium amytal (wrongly called a
"truth serum") to put Holly into a "hypnotic" state, in
which she accused her father of sexual abuse. Her mother
believed her and divorced Gary, and, when word got out, he
also lost his high-paying job.
So Gary sued the therapists for destroying his life. He
won, though he did not get even close to the sum of money he
had requested. The jury ruled that the therapists should
have been more skeptical and challenged Holly's beliefs
rather than simply accepting her "recovered" memories as
real. The foreman also said they found it hard to believe
that the abuse could happen over 11 years, and have all of
it repressed (including one supposed episode involving the
family dog).
This case received a great deal of media attention.
_Dateline NBC_ featured a segment on it in their May 17
show. Reporters interviewed several of the main players and
managed to catch them in a variety of mistakes (the "80%"
figure is one of them). The therapists said it was a setback
for the profession, but others, including myself, think it
is a BOON for the profession, which will hopefully make them
more careful.
One of those others is the (Springfield, Illinois)
_State Journal-Register_. Its May 19 editorial pointed out
that this case should serve as a warning to those therapists
using unscientific methods. One paragraph of that editorial,
in particular, deserves repeating here: "Ours is a nation
prone to pop psychology and pseudoscience. Self-help books
aimed at 'survivors' of long-forgotten child sexual abuse
abound. And far too many practitioners of memory therapy
have no more background in the subject than what they've
gleaned at weekend seminars."
On the Other Hand...
Then there's the _Illinois Times_. On May 12, it
featured an article complaining about the Illinois
legislature's recent attempt to replace the statute of
limitations for charges of childhood sexual abuse (see
"REALLity Check," Vol. 2, #4). The author apparently only
talked to people on one side of the issue--those who oppose
the reimposition.
As we see all too often, some claims are made which are
nowhere near the truth. In particular, Polly Poskin, the
director of the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault,
claimed that "a number of high-profile incidents [have]
fueled a backlash against sensitivity to the seriousness of
sexual abuse."
I wrote a letter, published the next week, which pointed
out that I know of _nobody_ who doubts the seriousness of
sexual abuse, or is insensitive to it. However, I know of
many psychologists who doubt the methods used to "recover"
these supposed memories. I also reminded the author that
there are a number of people he could have talked to about
the many sides of this issue, and sent him, specifically, a
packet of information (including issues of _The REALL News_)
about FMS. Alas, I haven't heard back from him yet.
Mack Attack
Harvard psychiatrist John Mack has been making the
rounds for his new book, _Abduction_. There have been
stories about him in many major newspapers, magazines, etc.
The vast majority of them have looked critically at his
methodologies and his abandonment of the scientific method.
Then there's the _Chicago Tribune_...
In its Tempo section (5/24), the Trib ran a "he said -
she said" story without bothering to actually investigate
any of it. In other words, they treated this story much like
they treat their stories on alternative medicine. For a
paper that is capable of good investigative work when it
comes to other subjects, I can't understand why they
routinely ignore that kind of journalism when it comes to
fringe science.
One of the news organizations that did take a closer
look was _Dateline NBC_ (5/24). While I don't think it did
as good a job as they have done with alternative medicine
stories and the story on the FMS suit mentioned above, the
program at least did better than the _Tribune_.
As usual, Mack stated that he simply can't find any
other way to account for the stories, other than that they
really happened. Psychologist Robert Baker can, and he
explained several possibilities. He also mentioned that Mack
only works with patients who are already convinced they've
had alien encounters, and Mack never challenges that.
Anybody remember, a few paragraphs ago, why the jury ruled
against the Ramona therapists? Yup, that's right, because
they didn't challenge her supposed memories.
_Dateline_ also showed a hypnosis session with Mack. The
patient was concerned about 40 minutes of "missing time"
which occurred at 4 in the morning while he was on a couch
in a hospital waiting room. Mack never even suggested the
possibility that just _maybe_ he fell asleep! In addition,
there is some pretty obvious lapse in technique when Mack
says things like, "You mean [these experiences] add to
ourselves? Is that what you're saying?" If that isn't a
leading question, I don't know what is.
As I said, they could have done a better job, for
example, by connecting its story of a week earlier, about
the FMS lawsuit, with this story. The methods are extremely
similar, as skeptics have been pointing out for quite a while.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Don Allen
Sub: Attitude
Date: 11 Jul 94 21:48:15
--------
EID:7630 1cebae00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43a9cf85
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f0bd275
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Don Allen of 1:3623/18@fidonet.
org writes:
> DP> stuff. I think i've figured out these people's motto:
> DP> "Extrordinary claims require extrordinary credulity."
> Tagline material STOLEN for use in I_UFO.
DA> I've seen that you've already put it to good use. Glendar the Wonder
DA> Dawg will probably whine and accuse you of mucking up "the atmosphere".
So far, nope. But then, her Assistant Mod has that origin line which is
a lot
worse than mine...
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From: John Moore
To: James Meyer
Sub: Combined effort
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:39:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5b
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089aa
Just out of a generally self destructive impulse I can't let this paper
folding nonsense I started die without trying to get in one last word,
even though your figures below are beyond dispute. . .
. . ." It is impossible to
fold any sheet of paper, no matter how thin or how large, IN HALF,
successively, more than seven times."
JM> OK, John. Let's do a little reality check on your claim.
JM> The first fold will result a piece of (folded) paper of half
JM> the original area with a thickness of twice the original
JM> thickness. If we tabulate that for subsequent folds, we get
JM> something like this:
JM> FOLD# AREA THICKNESS
JM> 1 .5 2
JM> 2 .25 4
JM> 3 .125 8
JM> 4 .0625 16
JM> 5 .03125 32
JM> 6 .015625 64
JM> 7 .0078125 128
JM> 8 .00390625 256
JM> If we start out with a square piece of paper that measures
JM> fifty feet on a side and five thousandths of an inch thick,
JM> and fold it eight times, we wind up with a folded piece of
JM> paper that's a little over three feet on a side and only a
JM> little over an inch and a quarter thick.
This started out as a piece of non-sequiter flippancy appended to someone's
remark about unfolding reality. It is an odd bit picked up years ago
in an old Ripley's cartoon, and makes a good bar stunt. It has worked
unfailingly with normally acquired sheets of paper, but the original
statement did explicitly claim that it applied to any sheet of paper no
matter how large or thin. Naturally I've never tried a piece fifty feet
on
a side, but I've always assumed that the trick had to do with the idea that
paper folds
pile up much thicker than just the adding up of thicknesses, due I guess
to
bending fibers along the fold not collapsing neatly into uniform layers.
The stunt, then, is that reality does not measure up to the neat
calculations. It might even be a Chaos function.
Unless I can get a grant from the Feds I'm not gonna go out and get
the fifty foot square sheet to try it, though, and I retreat from the field
thoroughly trampled.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: John Moore
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 10 Jul 94 16:52:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5c
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089ab
Having to do with a prior response I made to an exchange between Sweet Sue
and Jeff Freeman which contained the bits below...
SS> ...On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unav
SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they <
SS> chose to be hurt.
JF>So does that make it okay? Or just a little okay? Sorry, all
JF>seems to be a wee bit fuzzy to me.
JM> I do not care for the rude and destructive style of argument dubbe
JM> FLAMEing, but I'm having trouble containing myself enough to respo
JM> in a polite manner to this.
JF>I think you wanted to send that to SS...
JM>... Sue, I don't want you to go into convulsions of guilt over my
JM> distress, but please give some serious thought to the idea that yo
JM> responsibility as a member of the human race extends beyond the
JM> boundaries of your own interests.
JF>Oh! You *were* talking to Sue. [g]
I am new enough to this kind of chat to claim some innocent ignorance of
proper procedure. I pick this up from a local echo, and my practice as
above has just been to append my comment to the end of the last message,
which my message reader sends back addressed to the last sender.
My assumption has been that this just appears as a running part of the
thread, with an alert to that last sender. If this is wrong, and I should
be changing the address to "ALL", I apologize, and would appreciate anyone
setting me straight on proper protocol.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: John Moore
To: Joe Slater
Sub: ghosts
Date: 10 Jul 94 17:16:00
--------
EID:1064 1b307a5d
MSGID: 1:100/435 608089ac
Just adding a note to an exchange between Joe Slater and Mia Cline. . .
JS>> Is this a photo with a blurry, slightly out of
JS>> focus picture superimposed on it? If so, I know how
JS>> to reproduce that quite easily.
MC> no it is very in focus...
JS>Oh, well, then. I had thought you'd seen the photograph yourself. While
JS>photograph is easy to doctor, by the time it's been processed for repro
JS>in a book there have been so many opportunities for tampering that it
h
JS>credibility whatsoever.
By the time a photo has been reproduced, especially in a cheap
mass produced paperback, it has been through so many layers of halftoning,
re-photographing or plate etching, and high speed printing that it doesn't
have to have been tampered with deliberately to be a very poor replica of
the original, suffering from many distortions of tone, contrast and
eradication of detail. People have been taking these pictures degraded
by
multi generations of processing as evidence for ghosts, psychic
apparitions and UFOs for many decades, rarely questioning whether the
printed picture is a clear representation of the original.
As a commmercial artist I specialize in producing drawings and
paintings for print reproduction, and even though I can apply much
experience to tailoring the art to survive the reproduction process, I am
often less than satisfied with the results.
John Blair Moore nuerble@delphi.com
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From: Gary Steinweg
To: All
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 11 Jul 94 11:41:24
--------
EID:3698 1ceb5d20
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e219254
Taken from the Internet:
FREE WILLY
(original author unknown)
How to remove a dead whale, or the Farside comes to Oregon.
I am absolutely not making this incident up; in fact I have it
all on videotape. The tape is from a local TV news show in
Oregon, which sent a reporter out to cover the removal of a 45-
foot, eight-ton dead whale that washed up on the beach. The
responsibility for getting rid of the carcass p was placed on the
Oregon State Highway Division, apparently on the theory that
highways and whales are very similar in the sense of being large
objects.
So anyway, the highway engineers hit upon the plan--remember, I
am not making this up--of blowing up the whale with dynamite. The
thinking is that the whale would be blown into small pieces,
which would be eaten by seagulls, and that would be that. A
textbook whale removal.
So they moved the spectators back up the beach, put a half-ton of
dynamite next to the whale and set it off. I am probably not
guilty of understatement when I say that what follows, on the
videotape, is the most wonderful event in the history of the
universe. First you see the whale carcass disappear in a huge
blast of smoke and flame. Then you hear the happy spectators
shouting "Yayy!" and "Whee!" Then, suddenly, the crowd's tone
changes. You hear a new sound like "splud." You hear a woman's
voice shouting "Here come pieces of...MY GOD!" Something smears
the camera lens.
Later, the reporter explains: "The humor of the entire situation
suddenly gave way to a run for survival as huge chunks of whale
blubber fell everywhere." One piece caved in the roof of a car
parked more than a quarter of a mile away.
Remaining on the beach were several rotting whale sectors the
size of condominium units. There was no sign of the seagulls who
had no doubt permanently relocated to Brazil.
This is a very sobering videotape. Here at the institute we
watch it often, especially at parties. But this is no time for
gaiety. This is a time to get hold of the folks at the Oregon
State Highway Division and ask them, when they get done cleaning
up the beaches, to give us an estimate on the US Capitol.
___
X SLMR 2.1a X
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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From: David Macdonald
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 11 Jul 94 18:18:54
--------
EID:a6c9 1ceb9240
MSGID: 1:232/310 100bc599
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Skeptical of skeptics
S.D.,
you remarks about skeptics are puerile and silly. I am aware that I
offer no grounds for this judgement. I do that on purpose, to mimic the
character of your post.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Marc Tooley
To: Tom Melville
Sub: Re: Nazi mysticism
Date: 10 Jul 94 23:49:22
--------
EID:f9ec 1ceabe20
MSGID: 1:353/400 2e20c142
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
EID: d5f5 ceba2674
TID: xMail 1.00 noreg
-=> Quoting Tom Melville to Rick Moen <=-
TM> Doesn't the swastika also mean "Good luck and Fortune?"
And a great many other things, including "Hospital," "The
Universe," and many, many more. Ancient aboriginal tribes
used a similar-looking symbol which meant "food."
(Don't ask me why.. I see no resemblance or sense to this.)
This doesn't change what the swastika means to most of the
world and/or survivors of World War II. This is the impact
of the symbol. This is why this is held with such contempt
and anger. And this is why it is such a "curse."
Historical meaning is nothing -- it is what it means NOW
which is important.
Marc
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- xMail 1.00
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From: Kerry Penny
To: Pete Porro
Sub: Re: GHOSTS
Date: 10 Jul 94 12:15:54
--------
EID:a3b6 1cea61e0
MSGID: 1:239/200.0 1126AAFA
PID: TransAmiga 1.12/g1 7010
>> I've started a monster. :)
PP> Yes You Have! I was wondering if anyone was willing to
PP> debunk my claims? Unfortunatly I left too much of GIPF
PP> in it, and most just said "Oh that nut Porro again.
PP> Ignore him and he'll go away."
Heh.
I wonder if you could find a way to incorporate the GIPF into a UFO setti
ng? I think it would fit pretty well in the I_UFO echo. ;)
--- TransAmiga BBS v1.12g1
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From: Fred Garvin
To: Don Allen
Sub: Elvis on Mars!
Date: 12 Jul 94 21:38:44
--------
EID:8efc 1cecacc0
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 2e2345a4
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f10c5ca
DA> Another note, I now know that the Pyramids here
DA> were built by those who also
DA> built them on Mars, as well as the Face too, the
Wrong! It is a proven FACT that the University of Tennessee at Memphis has
dis
covered that the "FACE" on Mars was erected in 1970, when Elvis entered
his fa
mous "Vegas Period". He was thinking of the future, when vast casinos would
be
built on the Martian surface. In fact, he had entered into a secret agreement
with Howard Hughes to build the first Mars Hilton Hotel & Casino, with the
FA
CE as a huge attraction, a la the Vegas Strip. But the Mafia had other plans.
Do you think it's just a coincidence that Elvis died JUST A YEAR after Howard
Hughes? I don't think so! And a close examination of the facts will back
this
up. They did it to Hoffa, to JFK, to Big E, and to Hughes! It's all a vast
con
spiracy I'm tellin' ya!
--- Maximus 2.00
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From: John Prewett
To: Terry Smith
Sub: Debating Fundos
Date: 11 Jul 94 15:15:11
--------
EID:0230 1ceb79e0
MSGID: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA47127F
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
TS> On <25 Jun 1994 > John Prewett wrote to Terry Smith:
TS> Think Time magazine is a 'scientific' publication? :-) Terry Smith
JP> No, however they do from time to time remark upon and quote bonafide
JP> scientist.
TS> That is not quite the same as peer reviewed examples of replicable
TS> hypothesis formation and testing now, is it?
The article in question merely presented some facts re: DNA
that the consensus of science has accepted for a couple of decades.
We aren't (at least at this point) debating scientifically
revealed fact. Rather, the issue (as far as I'm concerned)
is what those facts mean or don't mean re: the likelyhood
of a Creatorless origin of life.
JP> Scientist who have revealed intricacy and organization which provides
JP> evidence the atheist POV is a delusion
TS> Scientists who prove negatives based on their subjective impression
TS> of the philosophical viewpoints of assumed 'enemies'. Tell me more.
Individuals who desire to know "truth", whether members of
the "scientific", legal, historical, or theological camps,
IMHO, have no reason to view each other as "enemies".
JP> which arose from the horse and buggy era of "science".
TS> Science _is_ 'atheistic - without GOD, as teleological explanations
TS> are not part of science. The need to invoke 'God' as a mechanism is
a
TS> scientific way of saying 'and a miracle occured.' This has nothing at
TS> all to do with the practitioners personal belief. If you believe one
TS> can quantify 'Godness', or propose controls to discount the presence
TS> of God in an experiment, I'd be interested in hearing your proposal.
IMHO, to succeed, such an experiment must be within
the parameters of God's chosen terms of revelation.
IOW: if one's "experiment" is on the order of:
"God, if you are real then come shake my hand",
then I sincerely doubt God will comply.
The only means that I am aware of, of conducting what could be
characterized as a publicly visible and verifiable "experiment"
re: God is via the concept of prophecy and fulfillment.
TS> Thank you for your interest. WBW, John
TS> And thank you for your's. Terry Smith
--- MacWoof Eval:26Feb94
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From: John Prewett
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Evolution
Date: 11 Jul 94 15:50:33
--------
EID:5ba9 1ceb7e40
MSGID: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA471AC9
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
RS> No serious scientist that has ever considered the evidence has any
RS> doubt about it on the fundamentals. That the most sophisticated life
RS> forms have evolved from the least sophisticated ones.
JP> Not so.
RS> Is so.
I presumed you meant Creatorless evolution,
as opposed to "evolution" in the sense (due to intelligent input)
that cars "evolve" (which I don't dispute).
I apologize if I made an erroneous assumption
re: your meaning of "evolution".
Some scientist believe it is plausible that sans intelligent
input (Creator), life could have originated and "evolved".
And some don't.
RS> But here isnt an appropriate forum to discuss it,
RS> there are echoes specifically devoted to fundys flagrantly
RS> demonstrating their gross misunderstanding of the science.
If you don't consider this worth discussion, or
if you deem my input worthless,
then I hope you'll not bother to respond.
RS> There is still considerable argument about some of the detail, say how
RS> something as complex an an eye evolves and stuff like that,
JP> Certainly is.
RS> Which says nothing useful at all about whether the fundamentals of
RS> evolution are well established now or not.
Excuse me for agreeing with you.
RS> You can say the same thing about medicine.
RS> Some stuff like infection are now well understood,
RS> well enough understood to be able to wipe out smallpox completely.
RS> That doesnt mean we completely understand say AIDS yet tho.
Agreed. Science certainly doesn't. WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:26Feb94
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From: Eric Greene
To: Lars Janqqvist
Sub: Evolution
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:21:40
--------
EID:7631 1cebb2a0
MSGID: 1:133/208.1 2e21ffb6
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e1b7e25
Hiya Lars -
05 Jul 94, Lars Janqqvist writes to Chris Lawson:
LJ> Setting off a yak stampede Chris Lawson just HAD to mention "Evolution"
AL>> Time dilation has been established? I didn't know that, but no
AL>> matter.
CL>> Time dilatation was established by synchronising two atomic clocks.
CL>> One stayed on the ground; the other boarded an aircraft that flew at
CL>> extremely high altitude.
LJ> You came close. In fact the clock on the plane ran SLOWER as the
LJ> plane was moving faster than the clock on the ground. It all has to
LJ> do with speed, not gravity.
And you missed it by a few feet yourself. The gravity most certainly has
some
thing to do with time dilation. A clock on earth moves more slowly than
a clo
ck in space because time slows down in a gravitational field. It is this
effe
ct that was tested by placing clocks on planes and rocket.
Just moving a clock faster does not make that clock seemingly run faster
or sl
ower compared to a "stationary" clock. Recall that Special Relativity says
th
at to an observer on the moving plane, the earth bound clock will appear
to ru
n slower since there is no preferred reference frame.
It gets so bloody confusing....
Eric
Internet: erg@america.net
eric.greene@index.com
--- GoldED 2.41
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--------
From: Karen Davis
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Alternative medicine
Date: 09 Jul 94 09:29:00
--------
EID:e82a 1ce94ba0
JH> No. I'm not at liberty to divulge any more. Needless to say the
> lawyers can be heard chortling in the background at the prospect of good
> living for the next little while.
I know at least one other person who might have died due to chiropractic
treat
ment - whatever was done caused him to have a stroke. He's now a very wealthy
man, looking to buy a lear jet... :} *FORTUNATELY* he managed to recover
from
the damage done by the stroke enough to live a productive life.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Wading bird wearing lingerie: Victoria's Egret.
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From: Karen Davis
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Believe it or not.
Date: 10 Jul 94 04:49:00
--------
EID:c6d0 1cea2620
jf> Sunlight makes me sneeze. Not just the first sunlight
jf> of the day, either. If I look near the sun, I sneeze.
FR> That's funny. John Denver didn't add this to his list in his song about
> sunshine. }:-}
Makes me sneeze too. I heard that it is indeed a reaction in a certain percent
age of people.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Th is t ag li ne i n ja il , Do not steal.
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From: Karen Davis
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 10 Jul 94 11:55:00
--------
EID:b393 1cea5ee0
MH> Generally, Tim, Idiot Savants are not retarded. They are autistic.
> When able to be tested they tend to have a very high I.Q.
In certain areas. Autistics as a whole have generally rather strange IQ
rating
s, high in some areas, low in others.
Karen.davis@graphicsbbs.com - Karen Davis in Colton, CA
-- SPEED 2.0c #1643: Your honor roll student cheated from my child.
--- DB 1.51/004670
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From: J. Moore
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages o
Date: 12 Jul 94 11:48:11
--------
EID:3aa3 1cec5e00
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 760ce954
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
BAD
AE> for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign sublimina-ing
AE> implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
Could you please offer even an ounce of proof for this?
AE> Also.. turning to music... heavy metal have been found to contain
AE> subliminal messages in them as well.. I myself am not a big heavy metal
AE> fan so I get my info from what others say. There was a Guns and Roses
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
AE> The above is just what I hear HOWEVER I've also heard that Enigma also
AE> use this technique. Being curious, I recorded parts of RETURN TO THE
AE> INNOCENCE from their latest CD onto my computer. When reversed, words
AE> could be identified. From a parts statements such as "I use Nicotine"
"I
AE> also lie" were heard by me. From Sadness Part I there was a part where
AE> it said "I'm not nasty"
AE> Don't believe me? Just did what I've just done and see hear it for
AE> yourself. You need to go through it a couple of times before you
AE> actually pick it up.
AE> I'm curious about some Guns and Roses songs since I don't have a copy
of
AE> one. Anyone wanna try it out?
I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy] and hope to hear
much more from you [toidi na er'uoy] in the future. Your research
skills are truly [toidi na er'uoy] stellar, and I'm glad there are
people like you out there [toidi na er'uoy] to protect the rest of us
from this plague [toidi na er'uoy]. Keep up the good [toidi na er'uoy]
work, and keep posting [toidi na er'uoy]!
* Q-Blue 1.0
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From: Patrick Grote
To: All
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 12 Jul 94 22:44:11
--------
EID:f0c1 1cecb580
MSGID: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
Are there really people who still think that the government staged the
moon landing?
Thanks,
Patrick -=> on 07/12/94 at 22:44
---
* CMPQwk 1.4 #158 * "God is dead"-Nietzche "Nietzche is dead"-God
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'g'
* Origin: Support U. * We Support It All * (314)984-8387 (1:100/380)
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Russia In Space 1/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:17:00
--------
EID:69e4 1ceb3a20
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f58
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 3:15
> Hello, my friends, this is Dr. Beter. Today is September 29, 1978,
> and this is my Audioletter No. 38.
Anybody else read Dr. Beter's writings? What do you think?
> Many times in recent years Russian science has handed shocks to the
> West. For one thing, the Russians are stiff competitors in the
> areas of science where we too are strong; but in addition, they are
> devoting tremendous amounts of effort to areas of science which are
> virtually ignored in the West, and they have learned some
> astonishing things which are not even hinted at by Western science.
> Russian science is perhaps most spectacular in the field of space.
> Right now it's space weaponry that is in the forefront of Russian
> technical progress--such as the hovering Cosmospheres and the
> Charged Particle Beam-weapon. Both of these are exclusively the
> property of the Soviet Union.
Has anyone ever proven Dr. Beter wrong about these so-called
cosmospheres? Seems important, as they are said by him to be capable
of, among other things, affecting weather and initiating seismic
shocks. I would think that such an assertion coming from Dr. Beter in
1978, would have been thoroughly investigated.
> The Tunguska region of Siberia is so remote and inaccessible that
> it was not until 1927 that a Russian expedition succeeded in
> reaching the explosion site; but since that time the Russians, and
> only the Russians, have studied the area exhaustively.
> The Tunguska space object of 1908 had slowed down and carried out a
> major change of course. This final maneuver took it over the
> totally uninhabited area where it exploded at an altitude of
> several miles. The explosion itself has been estimated as being
> equivalent to a huge 30-megaton hydrogen bomb; and even today 70
> years later, the entire area remains slightly radioactive. To the
> Russians, there is only one logical explanation that fits the
> mountain of facts they have compiled about the Tunguska explosion:
> it was a disabled spacecraft which tried unsuccessfully to make an
> emergency landing, exploding in mid-air
Hmmmm. The official line is that it was a meteor. Now this is
another version of the same incident. Which is it?
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Ufo newspaper article. 01
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:18:01
--------
EID:7bab 1ceb3a40
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f59
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:39
> (From): JOHN_-_WINSTON@CUP.PORTAL
Here is an example of info JW posts, that I just dont get anywhere
else. Thanks, John.
> I thought you might Like to see this. There was a couple full page
> articles in the Seattle Times about UFO's and friends. Some one
> here is responding to the Newspaper's articles.
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 94 11:32:29 EST
> Subject: Open Letter to The Seattle Times
> Note: I am publishing the following letter to _The Seattle Times_
> on Usenet because _The Times_ has twice refused to publish my
> comments concerning their misleading coverage of the UFO
> controversy and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
Uh huh. Welcome to the club!
> I attended most of the recent CSICOP symposium held in Tukwila,
> including the talk by Dr. John Mack whom _The Times_ called a "true
> believer."
Oh how naughty! Look at the possible power of that moniker. Used in
a context to convey something negative, the word 'true' will be taken
into the mind as something bad, and the word 'believer' will be taken
into the mind as something bad. The power of this mind control of
words has an affect that reaches farther than thoughts of UFO's or
supposed abductions. It is an attack against 'truth' and 'belief'.
> Far more serious is the use of the demeaning phrase "UFO true
> believer" in the story's headline. This gives the false impression
> that scientists can be neatly divided into two camps: irrational
> true believers and rational skeptics. This is just plain silly, not
> to mention insulting to Mack and others who engage in controversial
> research. _The Times_ owes Dr. Mack an apology.
False impressions are what mind control is all about.
> Dietrich may be interested to know that the dozens of professional
> scientists who are now studying the UFO phenomenon have plenty of
> support among their mainstream colleagues, according to all surveys
> and polls on the subject.
Well, tell em to start publishing what they have been studying! We
dont hear from enough of them.
> A third questionable feature of Dietrich's story is the face-value
> acceptance he displayed toward the claims of Donna Bassett. Hard
> questions need to be asked of anyone who has admitted to having
> lied in pursuit of "the truth."
No. She couldnt have been a 'plant' ?
> Second, because scientists are occasionally fooled by dishonest
> people, it does not auto- matically follow that the whole body of
> their research has been discredited.
No?
> The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
> Paranormal (CSICOP) is an organization that attempts to set itself
> up as the sole judge of scientific truth.
What?
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Ufo newspaper article. 02
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:21:02
--------
EID:7aeb 1ceb3aa0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5a
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:40
> Science depends upon the willingness of a few brave scientists to
> take unpopular stands. Even if you disagree with them, they have a
> right to express their views without having their characters
> assassinated by _The Seattle Times._
Well, now at least without character assasinations, we would have room
for open discussion.
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Sitchen's Books
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:27:03
--------
EID:7516 1ceb3b60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5b
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Jack Mathias
* Originally to Glenda Stocks
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 7:19
Glenda wrote to Clark Hawthaway and said:
>> Are you speaking here of the broken comet or something approaching
>> Jupiter from beyond?
> I am referring to what is known as the broken comet. Has anyone here
> actually seen them, personally?
Surely you are not attempting to say that YOU actually believe that these
repo
rted comet fragments are alien ships moving in for the invasion. This is
strai
ght from George Green and Commander Hatonn and has NO TRUTH what-so-ever.
Jack
**my source ...*the real Hatonn*...**
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: John Winston
Date: 11 Jul 94 07:27:04
--------
EID:e887 1ceb3b60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60072f5c
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to all
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 4:27
> (From): JOHN_-_WINSTON@CUP.PORTAL
> (To) : ALL
> System: SNET
> Conf. : 0017 - CONSPIRACY
> Dear Folks: Here is a person's comments and my answers to some of
> his questions....
> JW So that's what he said, so help me Kibo.
> John Winston.
I like to post some of John Winston's messages because he gets his
information from a WIDE variety of sources (no, not JUST from
enquirer, Sun, etc. type papers). Also, John injects his personal
humor and levity, which I find entertaining. He often posts unusual
stories that get your ole gray cells working and wondering. He is
often bashed on the nets, but it doesnt seem to bother him at all.
Someone created a usenet group for him, to stop him from posting to
their group, but it didnt work, and the result is, that folks who DO
like his postings have a group where they can get them without wading
through other groups. Funny, how the bashers even bash him in his own
group.
But John represents the people who are not afraid to go against the
status quo's thinking. He gives us a chance to look at alternative
viewpoints, and other people's thinking that we would not otherwise
get an opportunity to view. And John makes it fun, too.
Thanks John Winston for your efforts,
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Don Allen
To: Rick Moen
Sub: I_ufo Echo
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:52:00
--------
EID:7ad5 1ceba680
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 60115b08
REPLY: 1:125/27 e726d41b
PID: FM 2.02
Hi Rick,
...
> In short -- as I said -- just a rather inbred religion
> echo, with
> required beliefs and prohibited beliefs, founded to promote
> particular
> ideologies and exclude particular (disliked) ways of
> thinking. I don't
> object to this at all, in itself. I just object to the
> glaring
> hypocrisy of calling this echo a haven for open-mindedness,
> when
> in fact admission is based flagrantly on ideological tests.
Bingo! And that my dear Holmes, is elementary. :-)
They claim to be "tolerant"...but only if what you say doesn't clash with
that
ideology. The first moment that you state something they don't want to hear,
you get told real quickly that your're "ruining the friendly atmosphere".
Noti
ce the biggest clue to this ideological test is their own echo rules, totally
bereft of any sort of intellectual honesty. For example, it's a "no-no"
to ask
someone for proof of a claim, no matter how outrageous, as in Bartoo or
Boyla
n's cases. It's also this issue of their glaring hypocrisy that I find particu
larly galling, as exhibited soooo well in the 'skeptibunkers creed' of Mark
De
an and Cluck Huffaway's mouth music about the "evil HORRIBLE skeptics".
It seems it's very fashionable to bash the skeptics, and quite a convenient
sc
apegoat too for the True Believer's, then it is for these individuals to
actua
lly engage in any form of critical thinking. I call it mental laziness .
I
guess this is where the religious-belief system comes in. Believe _anything_
n
o matter how ridiculous or absurd. Test _nothing_ or put any significance
on p
roof. The very acme of this credulous believer attitude is wonderfully exempli
ed in I_UFO's moderator, Glenda Stocks. She puts a tremendous amount of
religi
ous faith/belief in the vaporous words of a channeled "Pleiadian Space Command
er" (Gyeorgos Ceres Hatonn). When 'Dr. Strange' glaringly caught Glenda
with h
er panties down clearly showing this Hatoons flagrantly anti-semitic bias
and
even when Rich Boylan put up a protest at this blatant Nazi propaganda,
(and j
ustifiably so, IMHO), this is when she admonished Boylan to "now remember
Rich
, have tolerance". Tolerance for _her_ viewpoint, that is. I daresay if
Boylan
had put up much more of a fuss condemning this anti-semitic bias, that he
wou
ld have received a shot across the bow in the form of a stern "moderator
warni
ng".
Just _try_ questioning her Guru, Walter "Kortron" Bartoo in I_UFO on _any_
of
his claims and see what happens. You'll be accused of "being unfriendly".
:-(
Bartoo puts out more bullshit claims and unsubstantiated assertions than
any p
erson I know of, _anywhere_. He's a "Walk-in Starseed World Commander" and
a "
Tron". (giggle!)
In one respect, these true believer's are exceedingly hilarious, in another
qu
ite pathetic. While I have taken my fair share of brickbats for running
the "s
keptics UFO echo" I would not have it any other way, for the conference
is ope
n to both believers and skeptics alike. I just don't know of any other way
to
promote _balance_ between the diverse viewpoints. Maybe I'm old- fashioned..bu
t I think the *idea* here is to get to the verifiable facts, by sorting
throug
h the numberless claims surrounding the UFO phenomenon. We shall not find
thos
e facts by leaping off into a patently uncritical religious _belief_ system,
s
uch as what I_UFO promotes. Gak!
Don
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: A cult is a religion with no political power - T. Wolfe (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Superconductivity info! 2/3
Date: 12 Jul 94 17:03:00
--------
EID:1172 1cec8860
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6090dd64
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Glenda Stocks
* Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 9:42
>> Through the help of a colleague, Allan Ames of Advanced Scientific
>> Applications (Houston, TX), one of Fogal's semiconductors will be
>> tested by scientists at the Texas Center for Superconductivity at
>> the University of Houston. This is being arranged through Wei-Kan
>> Chu. SN discussed the situation with Chu and he confirmed that
>> testing will be done after the documents he had received were
>> reviewed.
> Finally something to confirm your pre-announcement. You and I have
> taken a lot of abuse on the nets about our announcement of this
> device. I was slammed on Internet, and you, on Fidonet. Maybe now
> those people can do their own followup research.
> SHEESH ! Glenda
(WB) Hi Glenda: Ofcourse we did, people cannot accept change because of
fear
programming of change. That is what this programming was dezigned to do.
If y
ou
study how our society was dezigned and how direct social programming was
dezig
ned, worked and was built into it by those controling us and doing this
you begin to see the plan used to manipulate everyone in it their advantage.
Y
ou
can't control a free thinker who has risen above it, they wont allow it.
Those realising this at some point fall out of this condition and begin
to
question it. Then they begin to look at it more closely and begin to see
why
this was done. It begins at a very early age and follows each member of
our
society into every age level. Those that resist it, try new things and bring
out new things. Then they are my subject to something that becomes a life
long
battle to not be controled by it, wake up the rest and maintain not being
influenced by it in doing this. Those supporting those finding new concepts
an
d
inventions are also attacked, discredited and undermined by those supporting
t
he
debilating system. Most are not even aware there is anything wrong, even
to th
e point of their actions. Because they are fullfilling a need that was instill
ed by the programming similar to child abuse they inflict on everyone around
t
hem keeping the cycle going. This is sad and can be seen in certain people
in
the way they react and deny any new concept. By doing this fullfills the
need
created by the abuse they cannot understand or see
they have been victumized by and take into the next generation and those
aroun
fd them. It's vicious cycle it's called mind control.
Those that protect the systems programming are the best examples of how
it wor
ks. These folks are the programed Zombies, subsceptable, and influenced
by it
and are the best examples of this working in their fighting for it's continued
adherence. These refuse every attempt to wake up or the waking up
others they see going on the undermine.
Behind the scenes free thinkers are merging into groups. These groups are
divi
ding society and will eventually bring in the needed changes. Reason being
onc
e you know theres no going back. I agree it's a battle, but one worth waging
a
nd one worth winning. We like them have no choice, we can't go back either.
Be
cause once you know the truth it sets you free, Then it alienates you from
the
rest of society. The difference now is, we know what
is real and they have no idea what we are talking about, nor do they care.
Sorry having got you into this but try to remember this is a part of those
awa
ke and who we are to each other. It's are real family and we must now support
it or this planet will be swallowed up and destroyed by ignorance that is
even
now working against the controler.
regards Walter.
> --- GEcho 1.02+
> * Origin: Ask your FIDO feed for CHANNELS (1:330/201)
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Bartoo.sys found. Engage bullshit detector? (Yes/Fnord!) (1:3623/18
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--------
From: Denise Weinmann
To: 6}T
Sub: {hm
Date: 13 Jul 94 09:54:54
--------
EID:4eaa 1ced4edb
MSGID: 1:396/65.0 2e23f22e
%9;biN Q7ow?q4r6R$.A64@zLfIZ,Hx&?;RA@ @ 5|6Hb+~AI]Ju|%, Adrian Eng of 3:690/245 writes:
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
I know that there is no evidence that "subliminal messages" actually DO
anythi
ng.
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
AE> BAD for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign
AE> sublimina-ing implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
They did? Please cite your evidence.
Also, simply because they got sued doesn't mean subliminals DO anything.
Beli
eve it or not, the court is not the judge of what is or is not scientifically
valid.
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
Even if this is true, you are confusing backwards masking with subliminals
--
of course neither of them have any evidence to support that they do anything.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Don Allen
Sub: Kortron Speaks 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 13:10:00
--------
EID:91ab 1cec6940
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1ce
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 5f135ed2
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
More good stuff. My database will be very well stocked.
> with. The secret government wanted genetic gene splicing
> techniques
> which was a field the Greys were adept at and other technology
> in
> order to create a superior being to fulfill their ideas, plans
> and future needs.
So we just need to watch for some of the usual suspects to suddenly show
up wi
th new youthful, superlatively fit bodies, eh? Wonder how Nixon missed getting
his. And what about Kissinger, Perot, and Benson?
> The Greys needed a specie that could be gene spliced into a
> crossbreed
> with their dying race. An agreement was reached allowing the
> greys to harvest human seed for their own use in this endeavor.
This is the weakest part. What is a "dying race"? One that's losing fertility?
If they know that much about gene splicing they don't need us, they just
need
to haul out their equivalent of dead pharoahs, bog people, ice age burials,
e
tc, and reconstruct their previous genetics, no need to fiddle with foreign
co
ding.
I suspect that this is a leftover, an evolutionary vestige if you will,
of the
older "Mars Needs Women" concept, where the goal was direct crossbreeding.
Bu
t we can't have the aliens fall behind our own science, so when gene splicing
came in, the old story was updated to include it, without anyone thinking
it t
hrough and seeing that it was now superfluous. Hmm, ufo conspiracy nuts
doing
a rational analysis? *That* would be evidence of alien intervention!
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: BASIS
Date: 12 Jul 94 13:12:00
--------
EID:6b40 1cec6980
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1cf
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 5f116dc2
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> db> Saw your letter in a recent issue of BASIS, about carrying organized
> db> skepticism into other areas. I pretty much agree completely. Just
> db> thought you'd want to know.
> Alas, I have not been getting BASIS since the last time I
> updated my subscription. I have this sinking feeling
> that BASIS is being sent to the Holland address I sent the
> renewal from. The owners of the house are probably reading it
> even now!
Does that mean you're back? If so, please call me voice at 602-327-1897.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
* Origin: Happy days are here again! (1:15/41)
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Jonathan Jermey
Sub: Primitive Cultures Vs Ind
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:28:00
--------
EID:dd72 1cebb380
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Jonathan Jermey to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> One of the early French groups that settled here, lead by a
RM> priest, put on a military show for the local natives, with
RM> the Chief as the guest of honour. In a march-by of some sort,
RM> a drummer boy, leading the troops, accidentally did something
RM> (I forget what) that caused a minor injury (or offense) to
RM> the chief.
JJ> Just a point - how 'civilised' is it to take offence at something
JJ> that was a) accidental and b) void of any genuine harm or damage? In
JJ> my book civilised attitudes include tolerance of children, newcomers
JJ> and the inexperienced.
Sure thing. It just seems to me that the incident, from our modern vantage
point, makes both societies look equally primitive. While the natives look
greedy and self-serving, the French looked cruel.
I'll give you another example.
One time I read the diary of the U.S. official who was sent to Fond du Lac
(the present site of Duluth, Minnesota) in about 1850 to sign a treaty with
the Chippewa. This guy felt pure pity for these savages and the poverty
and wretched conditions that they lived in, and genuinely wanted to help
them. There was a teenaged Indian girl in the camp that had a serious
illness (unable to talk, paralyzed on one side, very sick). His diary
spoke disparagingly of the herbal remedies and chants that the local shaman
was using to try to cure her.
So he decided to help her himself. He visited her daily, and applied the
current "modern" medicine - he bled her. One day from her left temple,
the
next day from her right, then from other sites on her body. If I remember
correctly, the amounts of blood involved were small, probably not harmful.
But it was an interesting example of the juxtaposition of the two
technologies. The guy who recorded it had an absolute faith that _his_
technology was vastly superior to that of the "poor savages" - it just went
without saying. From our modern vantage point, OTOH, they both look
equally primitive and ineffective. But still we seem to retain that
official's unquestioned (indeed, unrecognized) assumption that all aspects
of our culture are and always were light years ahead of the "savages".
Take care.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Rod Speed
Sub: ritual mutilation 1/2
Date: 11 Jul 94 22:22:00
--------
EID:4dc1 1cebb2c0
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Rod Speed to Terry Smith <=-
TS> It seems plausible to me that one reason these breeds were docked was
TS> to lessen the chances of pack formation.
RS> Its essentially an appearance thing. There have been similar
RS> approaches with cropped ears. Some of the pack dogs are short tailed,
RS> cocker spaniels for example.
I think you're right, Rod. My brother-in-law had two dobermans (dobermen?
), one that was never docked - floppy ears and long tail - and a second
one that had been docked. The docked one _looked_ much more fierce
(especially because of the ears, rather than the tail) than the natural
one
(which looked like a large, long-legged daschund). I believe, in the case
of that breed at least, that was the reason that the practice began - to
give the dog a more viscious appearance (erect ears make the dog seem more
alert and threatening, while a wagging tail would detract fromthe image).
Also, there was a definite difference in temperment between these two dogs,
even though they were kept in the same houshold, and treated the same.
This may have been due to natural personality differences, or the fact that
the docked one was male, and the other was female. But, I can't help but
speculate that perhaps, people reacted to the docked dog's appearance with
more fear, which the dog was able to sense, making him more agressive.
I
think this may also have been understood by the people who started the
practice (at least in the case of that breed).
RS> Particularly when some of the breeds deliberately bred for fighting
RS> and viciousness dont have shortened tails. There is no obvious
RS> association at all.
I doubt that his explanation (that it was done to impede pack formation)
is
right. There are probably different reasons for it with each breed where
it is practiced. Probably mostly to change appearance, although perhaps
sometimes for health reasons.
TS> My point was that it constitutes maiming,
RS> I know thats the point you were trying to make. IMO you still havent
RS> done so. They arent maimed at all. Essentially its just an appearance
RS> thing which has no dramatic effect on the dog.
"Maim" (to me at least) carries some implication of impaired function, and
that ain't so in this case.
"Mutilate" (to me at least) doesn't necessarily carry that distinction,
and would be a better choice of words, but is still probably too strong.
All of which means that I agree with you on this one.
How about "disfigure"? That seems more appropriate to me, as a description
of the practice. It certainly doesn't seem like a civilized thing to do.
Why not breed the beggars to have short tails and erect ears in the first
place ?
Take care.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Maloney
To: All
Sub: Hitler
Date: 12 Jul 94 12:43:00
--------
EID:43a1 1cec6560
MSGID: 1:2613/220 618c3446
I wouldn't know if this would really fit in here or not, but I have a question
for you all... Was Hitler a smart man??? It would seem he was because
of hi
s pre-war accomplishments, but what he did during the war was just plan
dumb..
. I'd like to hear your views... And the second one is, would saying "...
yo
u slut looking bitch..." be bad enough that it would cause expulsion from
a BB
S???
--- PCB 15.1/GEcho 1.02+
* Origin: -=TPZ=- * (716)473-5204 * (716)473-0252 * (1:2613/220)
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Life and NDEs
Date: 13 Jul 94 06:57:40
--------
EID:065b 1ced3720
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43bc0c36
The following is an article from the June '94 (Vol. 2, #6) issue of The
REALL
News. It may be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper
c
redit is given. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any
public
ation that reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may
also
be cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences.
This article represents the opinions of its author, and does not necessarily
represent the opinions of REALL or its officers.
=============================================================================
A Matter of Life and Near-Death
by Robert E. McGrath
Susan Blackmore, _Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences_.
Prometheus Books, 291 pp, hbk, 1993, $23.95.
In the last 20 years there has been an explosion of
interest in Near-Death Experiences (NDEs). Books and
articles have reported dozens of cases of people who, while
apparently unconscious and near death, had amazing,
life-transforming experiences before returning to life. They
recall leaving their body, flying through a tunnel toward a
bright light, meeting luminous beings, and then returning to
life in their body. After a NDE, the person's life is
changed forever, and they strive to live each day to the
fullest.
Similar experiences are reported around the world and
throughout history. It is widely believed that these
experiences are evidence of a spirit or soul which exists in
a higher or alternate reality. In this view, the NDE occurs
when this spirit leaves the dying body and shows that the
soul continues to exist after death. These contentions
appear to fly in the face of materialistic science, and NDEs
seem to offer objective proof of a major paranormal
phenomenon. Can science take up the challenge, and provide
an alternative account of NDEs?
Susan Blackmore, Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the
University of West England, takes on this difficult task,
requiring a careful examination of the NDE, setting forth a
theory to explain the facts, and evaluating the competing
explanations. Blackmore does all three, and in doing so
provides a dandy example of how to ask good questions, what
sorts of answers are useful, and how to think
critically-even about life, death, and self-awareness.
What, if anything, is a NDE? Blackmore reviews the
evidence and finds that there is a recognizable phenomenon,
as described in the NDE literature. The NDE is a complex set
of experiences, although not every NDE includes all the
elements. The features include:
- a feeling of sublime bliss and peace
- a feeling that time stops a feeling of leaving the
body, that is, an out-of-body experience (OBE)
- flying through a "tunnel" toward a bright light
- meeting departed loved-ones or other spirit beings
- reliving episodes from life.
These, then, are what needs to be explained.
Blackmore shows that most of the elements of the
experience are not unique to the NDE but are known to happen
in other conditions, such as drug-induced hallucinations,
epilepsy, and mystic trances. This suggests that there are
common mechanisms responsible for the experiences. For
example, the classic "tunnel" experience is reported from
OBEs when the person is not near death, and from drug trips.
In fact, Professor Blackmore herself has had such an
experience.
Many people who have had a NDE give accurate reports of
events during the time they were unconscious. These reports
are difficult to confirm because the people involved were
usually in a life and death struggle at the time and not
carefully recording all the details. It does seem true,
though, that people can sometimes perceive events around
them, even while apparently unconscious. These perceptions,
Blackmore says, appear to be limited to what one would
expect if the normal senses were still partly working.
Blackmore could find no solid evidence of paranormal
perception during a NDE. This is consistent with her
findings about OBEs in her earlier book, _Beyond the Body_
[1].
cont...
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: NDEs, 2/2
Date: 13 Jul 94 07:01:25
--------
EID:3611 1ced3820
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43bc0e9c
cont...
As an alternative to the popular "afterlife"
explanation, Blackmore constructs a theory of the NDE based
upon brain physiology, cognitive psychology and her own
previous work on OBEs [2]. The NDE is, she says, the
experience that happens as the brain slowly dies. She
explains what is understood of how the healthy brain works,
and what happens as, suffocating and cut off from normal
sensory input, the brain struggles to survive and maintain a
coherent model of the world. This death struggle, she
argues, produces the abnormal experiences of the NDE.
Blackmore hypothesizes that the "tunnel" experience is
due to abnormal activity in the visual cortex caused by slow
anoxia, or oxygen starvation. The feelings of peace and
bliss are probably due to a flood of endorphins released in
response to the trauma of dying. Endorphins may also cause
seizures which trigger the vivid memories of life events.
Thus, some of the elements of the NDE are probably due to
the physiology of the dying brain. What about the more
complicated experiences, such as the OBE and the
psychological transformation so frequently reported?
The OBE is, according to Blackmore's theory, a
malfunction of the way that the brain normally maintains a
model of "me in the world". This model is responsible for
the everyday experience of being "in the body" and
perceiving the "real world out there". As the dying brain is
cut off from sensory input and starts malfunctioning, the
model of "me" and "the world" disintegrates. The brain
fights to live, though, and builds replacement models using
the best data available: fragments of perceptions, memories,
and imaginative reconstruction. These elements play a role
in everyday perception of the world, but in the absence of
external data, the model produced may depart quite a bit
from actual events. Blackmore theorizes that the best model
available is experienced as "reality", no matter how weird
by normal standards.
Blackmore's theory explains the relationship between the
NDE and other related phenomena, such as OBEs, drug
hallucinations, and mystic experiences. It also explains the
everyday "in-the-body-experience", and offers deep insight
into just who the 'I' is that inhabits 'my' body. There is
no 'me' inside, Blackmore concludes. The experience of "me
in the world" is what the brain feels as it models reality.
Blackmore suggests that in some NDEs and in certain mystic
states there is a time when this model is broken down. This
is the feeling of "timelessness", she says, and this
experience is what transforms the life of the person. It is
a glimpse past the everyday illusion of "me in the world",
and normal life can never be "real" in quite the same way
after this experience.
Blackmore's first book, _Beyond the Body_, was the
definitive examination of OBEs, and this new book is the
definitive examination of NDEs. Professor Blackmore shows
that science can not only address the issues raised by OBEs
and NDEs, but that by doing so, we are led to important
scientific understandings. Further, these understandings
have deep implications for what it means to be human, and
how to live and die well.
References
1. _Beyond the Body_. Heinemann, London, 1982. American
paperback edition, Academy Chicago Publications, Chicago,
1992.
2. "A Psychological Theory of the Out-Of-Body Experience",
_Journal of Parapsychology_, Volume 48, 1984, pp. 201-218.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Patrick Grote
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:32:02
--------
EID:aa34 1cedac00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40724
REPLY: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
In a msg to All on , Patrick Grote of 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG
writ
es:
PG> Are there really people who still think that the government staged the
PG> moon landing?
Yes. One of them was posting not too long ago in the UFO echo.
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:33:53
--------
EID:b757 1cedac20
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40bc1
REPLY: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb002
In a msg to Jackson Harding on , Mia Cline of 1:201/20 writes:
JH> OK, who is Dr Maher, what are his qualifications, where is he working
at
JH> the moment and what are the highlights of his academic career to date?
MC>
MC> She has done her research in Chicago as i stated before. Her
MC> specialties are in Parapsychology which includes ghosts.
I must have missed this earlier message. What was her research in? What's
he
r PhD in? Where can I read the results of these studies?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ed Hackett
Sub: I_ufo
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:35:54
--------
EID:bfe5 1cedac60
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 43c40fb6
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Ed Hackett of 1:275/17 writes:
DB> Actually, it does. I have seen their type before. "We must allow
DB> all views! Except those which disagree with ours..."
EH> Remember Animal Farm...
Ooooh, good comparison!
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--------
From: Tom Bomhower
To: Karen Davis
Sub: Idiot savants
Date: 13 Jul 94 21:08:11
--------
EID:421f 1ceda900
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 76954229
MH> Generally, Tim, Idiot Savants are not retarded. They are autistic.
> When able to be tested they tend to have a very high I.Q.
KD>In certain areas. Autistics as a whole have generally rather strange
IQ
KD>ratings, high in some areas, low in others.
Autism is as yet, like schizophrenia, more of a political than a
scientific term.
It first allows psychiatrists to sound as though they are scientists
and psychology to pose as being a comprehensive science, with categories
sufficient to every purpose.
It then allows parents to shop around for a diagnosis that they can
live with, rather than retarded/dysfunctional/incompetent.
Odd, isn't it, how people are reassured by finding out that there is a
specific label for their problem - even though it does not in fact leave
them any better off than before - as long as that label doesn't contain
an obviously negative word, prefix or suffix.
T. Bomhower
---
* DeLuxe* 1.25 #898sa * copyright 1994, T. Bomhower
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Re: The flood
Date: 11 Jul 94 20:06:31
--------
EID:349c 1ceba0c0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ec26d01b
MH> In the late 19th century there were two geological\paleological
MH> schools.. Uniformitarianism and Catastrophism.
MH> The latter believed in Divine intervention in the natural
MH> catastrophies.
Actually, no. This latter bit is not true. 19th C. catastrophism
did not entail divine intervention. It simply assumed relatively (on
geological/biological scales) sudden development of life and geological
forms. Uniformitarianism seemed to be the most likely model at the
time, because generally known natural processes seemed mostly gradual,
so that school prevailed until about 20 years ago.
MH>But they both agreed that there occurred a flood that covered Asia
MH>Minor, Europe ,and Asia.
Actually, this view had largely vanished in the scientific community by
the time of Darwin's travels (1830s), because the quantity of water
involved was clearly impossible over that area, and evidence for it
occuring was lacking. There was plenty of evidence for _local_ flooding
at _different_ times, but not for one widespread one.
There is good coverage of all this, plus the resurgence of a modified
form of catatrophism in recent decades, in _Cosmic Catastrophes_ by
David Morrison and (forget the name of his co-author).
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Re: Fringe science?
Date: 12 Jul 94 21:22:54
--------
EID:3060 1cecaac0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d01b
RS>While I agree with the vast bulk of the stuff you said to Sue, there
RS>are some quibbles.
RS>...
RS>Generally the term replication is used to describe experimental
RS>design which has its own duplication, replication. You would normally
RS>use the phrase 'independent experimental verification' or something
RS>like that for someone else doing the essentially the same
RS>experimentation themselves.
You may well be right -- or we may each be right in slightly differing
contexts. I'm not sure. However, I double-checked on the USENET
alt.paranormal and sci.skeptic newsgroups, and found that both Roger D.
Nelson and York H. Dobyns of the PEAR lab, in separate discussions,
used the term the way I did -- for whatever that's worth. Those two
fellows are both experienced and respected parapsychologists.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Lewis Marvich
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 23:56:07
--------
EID:10c6 1cecbf00
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d11b
LM> What does being "right" or "wrong" have to do with being a skeptic?
What does "weird" used of "quotation marks" have to do with this "echo"?
(Gee, that's fun, isn't it? :-> )
LM> As I understand skepticism, one very necessary thing is not to
LM> prejudge a new idea or concept.
No. Skepticism is simply critical inquiry into testable fringe-science
claims of fact. It does not have any particular ideological content,
beyond that. It's not fundamentally about "ideas or concepts".
LM> You are supposed to gather proof either for or against, until a
LM> consensus of trained and educated people agree that an idea is
LM> valid or invalid. Is this not so?
"You" can do anything "your" little heart desires. However, skepticism
has no obvious connection with _ideas_ being "valid or invalid"
(whatever that means), nor with "proof" (whatever you mean by that).
Skeptics are fundamentally concerned with particular claims of
fringe-science fact. Get it?
LM> At one time the idea that "invisible bugs" could make a healthy
LM>person ill or kill them was scoffed at and ridiculed. The supporters
LM>of the "Germ Theory" were able to gather the proof they needed for
LM>their idea to gain acceptance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they laughed at Galileo, right? (They laughed at
the Keystone Cops, too.)
LM> Angels, demons, extra-terrestrials, U.F.O. abductions or succubi; I
LM>do not reject these ideas _or_ support them without repeatable
LM>proof.
Ain't concerned here with "rejecting" or "supporting" _ideas_.
Get a clue, Lewis, and report back when you find one.
LM> Saying that most who do support fringe science are stupid,
LM> ignorant and crazy is again prejudging.
Do you have in mind anyone in particular who you think does this, or is
this just another vapid generality?
LM> Just as someone who claims that anyone who doesn't believe in their
LM> U.F.O.s are dupes of the government, or lying participants in the
LM> "conspiracy", is guilty of the same.
Hey, your mama ever tell you you missed your calling in life, and
should'a been a preacher?
LM> A willingness to change a previously held idea or theory is just as
LM> much a part of being a skeptic as trying to de-bunk false ideas.
Hm... How about this one? "Buy low and sell high." OK, now it's
_your_ turn again to post a hyper-obvious truism.
LM> That is all I wanted to ask/say. I look forward to responses.
Please see comment, below.
LM>... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
Tres a propos. ;->
Cheeri-o,
Rick M.
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Lewis Marvich
Sub: Re: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:00:14
--------
EID:5cf0 1cec0000
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d21b
LM>JH> If they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be
LM>JH> it, but we don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
LM>
LM> Absolutely. If there are problems they should be handled at
LM> whatever level is appropriate; SYSOP, FIDO, etc.
That would be appropriate if there were grounds for a Policy complaint,
which no one alleged that there was -- or have you been hallucinating?
All that has occurred here is comment on the hypocrisy entailed in
another echo's mode of operation.
You have a problem with that, Lewis?
LM> Participants of both echoes tend to have directly opposing
LM> viewpoints and "Preaching to the heathen", as it were, will
LM> accomplish nothing.
No, they do not have directly opposing viewpoints, and speaking of
this echo as the purveyor of a belief system is simply an error on
your part. If you knew diddly about the subject, you would not make
such an allegation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Re: Bodily molecule recycl
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:03:53
--------
EID:799b 1cec0060
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d31b
RJ> Since I'm new here, is playing devil's advocate applicable as
RJ> a form of skepticism? By raising doubts about someone's reason
RJ> for doubting, will that help achieve a goal?
Playiung devil's advocate is playing devil's advocate. Skepticism is
critical inquiry into testable fringe-science claims of fact.
RJ> Suppose you could inform me on the working definition of skepticism
RJ> here: are valid models to be proposed, or is it to solely
RJ> invalidate spurious ones?
Please see above, plus (more fundamentally) moderator Jackson Harding's
guidelines, and skeptics' journals such as CSICOP's _Skeptical
Inquirer_.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Chris Cox
Sub: Re: Conference
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:15:51
--------
EID:14e4 1cec01e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d41b
CC>I think we are straying from the original topic of this conference.
This conference is _always_ straying. Most people passing through
here either haven't a clue what the echo's supposed to be about, or
don't care, or are cranks of various sorts seeking new audiences.
CC>Dont you think?
Never on Wednesdays. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Re: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 12 Jul 94 00:52:17
--------
EID:6d65 1cec0680
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d51b
SD> I am skeptical of skeptics because all skeptics do is be skeptical.
SD> [eighty lines of abused electrons omitted out of kindness]
Well, you clearly haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about,
but you're probably correct in your intuition that you wouldn't like
this echo, and we-all won't likely miss you, either. Please don't let
the door hit you on the tuchis, on your way out.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
Oh, what the heck, let's play count the fallacies . . . .
SD> I don't think it's a good attempt at finding the truth,
Gratuitous editorialising, without even a pretense at reasoning.
SD> but it's a very good attempt at being popular and agreed with.
Impugn people's _motives_, if you don't care to address whether their
_views have merit_. Sometimes readers won't notice that you've changed
the subject and are engaged in a form of name-calling.
SD> You see most fight change or new ideas, this is very much an
SD> ingrained reaction to anything new that comes along.
This of course attributes to us-all an intent none of us have ever
expressed, so it's fundamentally a flat-out irrelevancy. However, it's
worth noting in passing that this takes the form of an "argumentum ad
novitam", the fallacy of asserting that something is correct simply
because it is new or newer than something else. The opposite fallacy
is called "argumentum ad antiquitam".
SD> It's understandable that people would fight something rather than
SD> try to understand it, it's obvious that they will resist something
SD> that seeks to change them.
Gratuitous and ignorant psychoanalysis. This is such a modern fallacy
that I doubt it has a name, yet. Maybe "Draper syndrome" will do. ;->
SD> Even if something that seeks to make things better or more
SD> understandable.
A simple irrelevancy. (Sorry, I can't make this one interesting.)
SD> Skeptics are popularists in wolfs clothing, they follow the
SD> trends and the mainstream,....
This of course is argumentum ad antiquitam! Rather amusing, no?
SD> ...they don't wish to understand, they wish to stop! They are sad
SD> people quite unable to doing anything else, as they consider that
SD> it's the only thing to do.
More ignorant, gratuituous psychoanalysis.
SD> Skeptics have no purpose for themselves other than stopping strange
SD> and unpopular material dead in it's [sic] tracks.
Another intent never expressed by people here (but then we're no longer
surprised, at this point).
SD> Sure there are credulous people out there, many who would jump if
SD> someone said jump, but skeptics don't protect them and never will!
Simple non-sequitur, since no one ever claimed that skeptics' purpose
is to "protect the credulous". However, it's also worth noting that
this feeble argument (where we're supposed to conclude that skeptics
are ineffective, since they aim to protect the credulous and fail) is
not only illogical, but also that the one premise that _is_ present
(that skeptics don't protect the credulous) is unsupported!
SD> Skeptics are only an aberrant people...
Argument ad hominem at its finest!
SD> ...attempting to be noticed and agreed with whether or no what they
SD> say is true or not.
More gratuitous, ignorant psychoanalysis.
SD> Consider[ing that] this universe offers a relative scale of
SD> truths, I don't think that the skeptics could ever find agreement
SD> unless they wanted to turn this universe up on it's [sic] head or
SD> rebuild it from day 1.
The close is a sweeping flourish of (incoherent) personal opinion. How
appropriate. [Insert Lowell Thomas voice here:] And so we say a fond
farewell (one hopes) to Stewart Draper, man of many sophistries. . . .
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jonathan Jermey
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 12 Jul 94 01:04:49
--------
EID:ae21 1cec0880
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d61b
JJ> DB> Blackmore discussed the classic parapsychological concept of
JJ> DB> sheep (those who tend to believe in the paranormal) and goats
JJ> DB> (those who tend to disbelieve the paranormal).
JJ>...
JJ> DB> She imagines continuously soaring, at first sheep-ish, then
JJ> DB> more goat-ish, and back again. She calls this, "being a
JJ> DB> `flying horse,'" and calls upon us all to join her in this
JJ> DB> category. (See [8].) This is both sound psychological theory
JJ> DB> and good skeptical practice.
JJ>So, given a choice of being wrong or right, it is good skeptical
JJ>practice to be half-wrong and half-right? Since Blackmore's 'sheep'
JJ>are, generally speaking, the less intelligent, less educated, more
JJ>disturbed portion of the population, I don't see any sense in
JJ>emulating them in any way at all. Educating them, yes.
My, aren't YOU self-congratulatory today? Well, if you're entirely
done patting yourself on the back for not being like those awful
plebian-types, perhaps you could try comprehending Blackmore's point:
Along with more concrete measures to ensure that a parapsychology
experiment isn't skewed by embedding one's expectations into the
experimental technique, it's probably _indeed_ a good idea to attempt
to vary one's anticipations about the outcome, for at least two reasons:
(1) to make sure any skewing that might occur in spite of experimental
controls tends to balance out, and (2) to invalidate the hypothesis
(for whatever it's worth) that experimenters' expectations in such
experiments have a direct effect (of some generally unspecified sort)
on outcomes.
If all _you're_ about is calling people relatively stupid, ignorant,
and unbalanced, then maybe what you need is some sort of religion.
It'll certainly get you nowhere, where testable claims of fact are
concerned. It sure as hell isn't needed in skeptics' groups, thank you.
JJ>... Free advice, and worth every cent.
Should I? . . . Nah.
Cheers,
Rick Moen
Member, Board of Directors
Bay Area Skeptics
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Re: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 12 Jul 94 01:22:20
--------
EID:0d6d 1cec0ac0
MSGID: 1:125/27 ed26d71b
JH> I think we can all take it as read that the crowd over in I_UFO are
JH> wearing a set of blinkers big enough for a very large horse. If
JH> they want an nice warm and fuzzy touchy feely echo so be it, but we
JH> don't need their echo war spilling over into here.
Jackson, pardon my speaking up . . . (It's not as though I ever have
before. ;-> ) . . . but, their _echo war_ isn't spilling over here.
All we're seeing is some relayed representative posts from it, and
some comments on the evolution of that echo. Might I suggest that,
as long as the posts don't become monotonous or too frequent, that
this case-study in the early formative stages of a new neo-religious
forum might be fascinating, and very much of interest, here?
Let me tell you a little background, to explain what I find so
fascinating:
The I_UFO echo is the result of a VERY odd, unstable coalition of
people that the FidoNet UFO echo moderators have managed, through
impartial enforcement of their rules, managed to alienate:
-- the abductee culture
-- classic New Agers
-- alien-propulsion-technology buffs and theorists
-- anti-skeptic crusaders
-- MUFON (the USA's biggest UFO-oriented group)
Now, many of these sub-groups pretty nearly hate one another on sight.
At least, they ordinarily have nothing to do with one another. All
find themselves flocking together after being (sometimes forcefully)
that long-winded discussions that just aren't about UFOlogy will be
quashed on FidoNet UFO.
Two things have mainly held them together: Being anti-Don-Allen's-echo,
and reaction against the two or three token skeptics who have been in
the echo until recently. If, as seems likely, they proceed along the
current course of discouraging anyone remotely skeptical from posting
at all, most of the impulse for solidarity will vanish. The interesting
question then will be what will they do next?
In the meantime, I've been finding at least _some_ of the comments and
cross-posts to be interesting (though at times they've been a bit much).
Personally, I'd like to continue to see them -- in moderation.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Fred Garvin
To: Patrick Grote
Sub: Moon Landing?
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:11:34
--------
EID:e414 1cee4960
MSGID: 1:106/4106.0 2e253986
REPLY: 1:100/380@FIDONET.ORG 76800afb
PG> Are there really people who still think that the
PG> government staged the
PG> moon landing?
Yes there are. There are also people who believe the Earth is flat, government
can give free health care, and Elvis is alive and well and living at Burger
K
ing.
--- Maximus 2.00
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From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Chris Lawson
Sub: Relativity
Date: 12 Jul 94 22:24:00
--------
EID:502f 1cecb300
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Chris Lawson to Rod Speed <=-
Good morning, Chris.
JF> Or is this some sort of 2-way deal -- where travelling away from the
JF> Earth we would arrive at our destination some thousands of years in
JF> the future, travelling back to the earth we would arrive "back" in
JF> the same time period we left?
RS> No, there is a nett difference in elapsed time for the traveller and
the
RS> stay at homes. But thats all. The traveller ages at a different rate
to
RS> the stay at homes.
CL> As you say, it don't work like that. Time dilatation is not a vector
CL> phenomenon. IOW, it doesn't matter what direction you go in, it's
CL> purely a function of relative velocities between reference frames.
But the question wasn't as dumb as it sounds, because all motion is
relative. One of the basic assumptions of Special Relativity (which is
where the time dilation idea comes from) is that there is no preferred
inertial frame of reference. All inertial reference frames are equally
valid. The explanation as to why the traveller is the one that experiences
less time isn't so simple as just saying that time dilation isn't a vector
phenomenon.
So if I pass you at close to c, and compare the rates of our clocks, it
appears to me that your clock is running slow. But, since your frame of
reference is equally valid, at the same time it also appears to you that
_my_ clock is running slow.
You say that if I hop in a space ship, leaving my twin brother
behind, and accelerate to a relativistic (near c) speed, from his
reference frame, my clock is running slow. And I when I turn around and
come back, I find that my twin is significantly older than me. Right?
But, lets shift this to _my_ reference frame. If all motion is relative,
my reference frame is just as valid as my twin's, no? From _my_ point of
view, the earth accelerated away from me, and approached c, therefore,
_his_ clock slowed down. Same thing for the return trip. So, viewed this
way, when the earth finally returns to meet me, my twin should be
significantly _younger_ than me.
That's the REAL "twin paradox".
The source of the paradox is that only _inertial_ reference frames are
equally valid. As soon as we bring acceleration into the picture, (which
we have to do in order to return), Special Relativity no longer applies,
and the much more complex General Relativity comes into play. And since
I
don't understand General Relativity, I have to stop at that point .
Take care.
... What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing. (Aristotle)
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 2 (1:222/10.0)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 13 Jul 94 17:35:00
--------
EID:0cdc 1ced8c60
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 611128da
REPLY: 1:343/210 86DCB4C3
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> DP| > Only problem here is that this is not how batteries
> work...
> DP| > The electrolyte ( H2SO4 - sulfuric acid ) forms lead
> sulphide
> | > with the
> | > lead electrodes, yielding water H2O as a byproduct.
> DP|Wrong. That is *not* how *all* betteries work. The proposal
> has nothing to d
> |with lead/sulfuric acid batteries.
> The proposal had to do with electric vehicles and for them, Lead
> Acid is still the most economical.
Irrelevant, the proposal includes the invention of new batteries.
> Additionally, the purpose of the electrolyte is to serve as an
> ion
> transport mechanism between the two electrodes. It is the
> electrodes in
> *any* kind battery that carry the charge, the electrolyte in
> *any* kind
> of battery does no charge storage at all and replacing it in a
> depleted
> battery will not serve to recharge that battery.
Incorrect. You did not read enough or i didn't explain enough in my original
p
ost. As a batter discharges, the electrolyte becomes saturated with ions
from
the electrodes. The process will continue until the elctrodes are consumed
*or
* until the electrolyte becomes fully saturated. The proposal is for a battery
in which saturation occurs long before consumption does. In such a case,
repl
acing the electrolyte restores the battery's power. *That* is the proposal,
an
d you can object to it, but you can't make up something that is *not* the
prop
osal and use it as a basis for objection.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
> * QMPro 1.51 * * <- Tribble -*-*-*-*- <- Tribble
> kabob
> --- WM v3.11/94-0125
> * Origin: Grey Matter * Seattle, WA * (206) 528-1941 (1:343/
> 210)
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From: Dr Pepper
To: John Jeanneault
Sub: RAPE OF THE PLANET
Date: 13 Jul 94 17:43:00
--------
EID:8881 1ced8d60
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 611128db
REPLY: 1:225/330.33@FidoNet 41d75e4f
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> PLANET PLUNDERING AS OLD AS UR, ARCHEOLOGISTS SAY
> By Thomas Maugh II Toronto Star July 2, 1994
> "Theory that people in pre-industrial ages lived in harmony
> with environment is eroded by the facts."
> LOS ANGELES - When Dutch explores landed on Easter Island
> in 1722,
> there was not a single tree.
> Most ecologists assumed the isolated Pacific island, now
> known as
> Rapa Nui, had always been barren. Recent studies, however,
> reveal that
> it once was covered with lush forests that were slashed and
> burned
> when humans moved there about A.D. 500.
> The rape of Rapa Nui, archeologists are now discovering,
> is not
> unique. Whereas environmentalists and historians once
> believed that
> early humans lived in harmony with their environment,
Have the author state who these environmentalists and ecologists were.
True there are popular myths, but in all the serious literature i read
there were plenty of references to the destruction of north american forests
(
now called the Great Plains), the over use of of middle eastern and north
afri
can farmland, livestock promoted erosion in ancient Greece, ect, etc.
> experts
> are beginning to agree, people have pillaged natural
> resources,
> denuded forests and sterilized fields with unwanted salt.
Experts have always agreed, unless you count new age wishful thinkers as
exper
ts.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:46:57
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6308871e
PID: FM 2.02
SS> On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unavoidab
SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they < chose to be hurt.
ss> Please note the words "they <>..." We are all co-creators.
ss> Unless, of course, one's actions would affect only oneself.
Are you forwarding the belief that someone getting raped _chose_ to be raped?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 17 Jul 94 08:48:45
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 6308871f
REPLY: 1:201/20.0 2e1eb0b4
PID: FM 2.02
LH> are ghosts who are out there just trying to scare
LH> people but they are pretty harmless.
mc> i agree.
I suspect you have had some experiences which would tend to indicate to
you th
at there are, indeed, such things as ghosts. Based upon that assumption,
I wo
uld have to ask whether you believed in ghosts always.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: BASIS
Date: 17 Jul 94 15:38:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 63088721
REPLY: 1:15/41@FidoNet 608ca1cf
PID: FM 2.02
db> Saw your letter in a recent issue of BASIS, about carrying organized
db> skept