God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: James Jenks
To: Don Allen
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 20 Jul 94 14:18:22
--------
EID:9ad4 1cf47240
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b8d39
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
DA> * Forwarded from "ASTRONOMY"
DA> * Originally by Patrick Thibault
DA> * Originally to All
DA> * Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 20:08
DA>
DA> I predict the comet will miss Jupiter! Any takers?
Is it too late to take him up on his bet? :)
---
þ JABBER v1.2 þ
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From: Ken Stuckas
To: Andy Voelkle
Sub: Exogenesis
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:15:11
--------
EID:9d42 1cf379e0
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7a82d1db
-=>While eating a book entitled "Exogenesis",
Andy Voelkle mumbled:
AV> A good friend of mine is a scientist who thinks that human life on
AV> Earth may have had its origins outside the Earth. It's true that amino
AV> acids have been found in meteorite fragments, and that complex organic
AV> molecules have been detected between the stars.
AV> I wonder if there is anything to "exogenesis"?
AV> I'd also like to hear a lot of PRO and CON discussion if there's
AV> interest. Anyone?
Seems as though it would be highly improbable that
life itself was brought to Earth by a meteor. Due to
to heat of atmospheric entry, any living organism
would have perished and there is plenty of evidence
that all the ingredients required for prebiotic
chemical evolution already existed here on Earth
in abundance. All that was needed were the correct
conditions for the appropriate chemical reactions
to take place.
It is not too difficult to create the precursor
molecules in the lab and the mechanisms for creating
more complex molecules are given an opportunity for
taking place in undersea volcanic vents. Also, the
other ingredient, time, was available.
Occam's Razor suggests that if we have a simple
explanation for a phenomenon that fits all the
available facts, then it is silly to invent a more
complex and less probable explanation.
... 90% of the time I'm right, so why worry about the other 3%?
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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From: Ken Stuckas
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ...
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:15:11
--------
EID:d6fd 1cf379e0
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7a82d1dc
-=>While eating a book entitled "...",
Fredric Rice mumbled:
FR> threw the message away. Nine days later he died. In 1987,
FR> the message received by a young woman in California was very
FR> faded and barely readable. She promised herself that she
FR> would retype the message and send it on, but she set it
FR> aside to do it later. She was plagued with various
FR> problems, including expensive car repairs. The letter did
FR> not leave her hands within 96 hours. She finally typed
FR> typed the letter as promised and got a new car.
FR> Good Luck but please remember: 20 copies of this
FR> message must leave your hand.
Oh, puleeeeze, Fredric!
... None of you exists: My sysop types all this in!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: Kevin Fox
Sub: Re: idiot savants
Date: 20 Jul 94 22:01:11
--------
EID:d521 1cf4b020
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7a82d1dd
-=>While eating a book entitled "Re: idiot savants",
Kevin Fox mumbled:
KF> Personally, I despise the name of this thread...I think that we have
KF> surpassed the term 'Idiot Savant' and realized that 'Autism' was more
KF> suiting. I wish I could have seen the initial post.
You are showing your ignorance, Kevin. The term
idiot savant that I learned in college psychology
is pronounced as the French, "ee-dee-yo savan"
and legitimately refers to a specific kind of
mental talent. Not all autistic people are
idiot savants. It's as if I called my car a
Nova and you argued with me saying that you
preferred the description "Chevrolet." 8*)
... Death is Nature's way of telling us to slow down.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: David Macdonald
Sub: Sneezing in sunlight
Date: 20 Jul 94 22:01:11
--------
EID:2a2d 1cf4b020
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7a82d1de
-=>While eating a book entitled "Sneezing in sunlight",
David Macdonald mumbled:
DM> Re: Sneezing in Sunlight
DM> I have for a long time sneezed whenever I go suddenly out into
DM> the bright sunlight. I found out about it from a doctor in
DM> realtion to another phenomenon that I experience and which ended my
DM> short boxing career--sympathetic weeping. When I went to the doctor
DM> about it, he asked me immediately if I sneezed when I went out in the
DM> sun. When I said I did, he said the mystery was over and there was
DM> nothing I could do about either. It seems as if there are bundles of
DM> nerves that gather up behind he nose and eyes and run into the brain.
DM> On some people, the sheath is thick and the opening through which
DM> the nerves pass is wide: these people do not sneeze in the sun or
DM> experience excessive sympathetic weeping. On some people the nerve
DM> sheath is thin and the opening narrow; the nerves are crowded
DM> together.
DM> Sometimes there are even small inter-nerve links. The electrical
DM> activity of one nerve excites the inadequately isolated neighboring
DM> nerve. The overstimulated eye nerve bleeds electricity into the
DM> nerve which controls sneezing, the nose nerve excites the nerve that
DM> controls weeping--or so I remember his explanation, as given to me
DM> some years ago.
DM> Whenever I run into a boxer now, I ask if he sneezes when he goes out
DM> in the sun. I get a lot of strange looks, and have never found one
DM> who does.
Thanks for the info, David. I was accused of being
weird when I tried to explain my "sun sneezing" to
someone. You explanation indicates that it is genetic.
My mother did it too. I have her nose. I have also
noticed that I can do it deliberately by staring up
at any strong light source like a fluorescent light.
... When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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--------
From: Darr Hoag
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 20 Jul 94 10:10:01
--------
EID:b82a 1cf45140
PID: T.A.G. 2.7 Beta
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 aaa8b8f6
MSGID: 1:2330/4@fido 2e2cf81d
*** Quoting Jeff Freeman to Don Allen dated 07-16-94 ***
> The folks on "Gods News" (a show on our local all-god TV station) are
> predicting the end of the world, meaning the return of Christ, may be
> begun by this comet hitting Jupiter. They are supposing that Jupiter
> may ignite when the comet hits it, becoming a second sun.
And all this time I thought they were into 'Son' worshipping. (*8
... Those who'd sacrifice Liberty for Security, deserve NEITHER!
--- FMail 0.99a+
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--------
From: Gary Steinweg
To: Tim Epstein
Sub: Sneezing in Sunlight
Date: 20 Jul 94 16:42:12
--------
EID:9c79 1cf48540
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e2db654
TE> > Sneezing in the sunlight: I sent a L O N G reply about it;
TE> > did you get it?
TE> No I didn't David. Looks like it didn't make it to
TE> Australia. I'm very interested in your comments. Would you
TE> mind resending it if you still have it?
Sorry to but it, butt ....... If the topic is why does sunlight
cause sneezing, that's easy. It's because sunlight causes dust
particles to swirl around. If you pull the shade down in your
house, the dust stops swirling around in the air and goes away.
Simple, huh?
___
X SLMR 2.1a X
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From: Gary Steinweg
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:06:06
--------
EID:6699 1cf4a8c0
MSGID: 1:202/344.0 2e2df42e
JH> In a msg of Monday July 11 1994, Gary Steinweg mumbled about Free Willy
JH> to All:
JH> GS> How to remove a dead whale, or the Farside comes to Oregon.
JH> This is without doubt the best post we've ever had here in
JH> the four years I've been moderator. Truly the first post
JH> where I have literaly been crippled with laughter and had
JH> tears rolling liberally down my cheeks.
I didn't author it, but I did enjoy reformatting and sharing it.
JH> GS> This is a very sobering videotape. Here at the institute we
JH> GS> watch it often,
JH> I realise you are claiming not to be the original poster
JH> but can I arrange for a copy?, either PAL or NTSC, hell if
JH> it's the latter I'll pay to get it
JH> converted.
I'll see if I can find my way back to the original author via
the Internet regarding your desires. I hope I'm successful,
however, please don't hold your breath.
---
X SLMR 2.1a X
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--------
From: Jeff Freeman
To: David Macdonald
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:15:04
--------
EID:0d96 1cf4a9e0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 fb1b0307
REPLY: 1:232/310 10052679
On (18 Jul 94) David Macdonald wrote to Jeff Freeman...
DM> I hope this makes some sense!
Bunches! Thanks... Now I'm off to the evolution echo where I can be
on-topic. :)
--- PPoint 1.80
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Stuff
Date: 21 Jul 94 07:01:00
--------
EID:a23a 1cf53820
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Dr Pepper to John Powell <=-
DP> Bob Marley often put political themes in his music. Yet i haven't
DP> heard a peep about him from the conspiracy industry, why not?
Voodoo... Nuff said.
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
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--------
From: John Powell
To: Pete Porro
Sub: OIL COMPANIES
Date: 21 Jul 94 10:11:00
--------
EID:8e45 1cf55160
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Pete Porro to John Powell <=-
>DH> I think that people need to have a better idea of what use they have
>DH> for their vehicle - why not have two - one gas powered for long
>DH> distance trips ( rental? ) and the electric for city commute ( 50 miles
>DH> per charge )
> Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other (laptop,
> cellular phone) batteries have?
PP> Hmm, actually the answer would be an electric car, with a Diesel
PP> generator built in. When the batteries started to run low, the engine
PP> would kick in and power the car, while recharging the batteries. When
PP> charged, it would shut off, and you would run on electric battery
PP> power again. You would just have to fill the fuel tank, and remember
PP> to plug in at night.
The longest routine trip I make is about 12 miles one way so I could get
by on an all-electric car fine during the week. And if it had an
automatic parasol-like solar do-da that popped up it could do a little
recharging while it was parked.
I would make a perfect beta-tester... Anybody know who's ass ya
have to kiss to get on of those cars?
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Re: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 20 Jul 94 23:47:22
--------
EID:6d65 1cf4bde0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f526d21b
SD> I suggest if you don't want to waste time on posting replys
SD> to messages, that you don't post replys to messages: simple! Well
SD> as for specifics as against generalisations; this is asking for
SD> much as you see there is a limit to the amount of time that I have
SD> to explain. All I am attempting to say is that individuals who seek
SD> the truth, skeptics or other need to view things from an entirely
SD> individual and objective fashion.
Stewart, is THIS how you write when you are being "specific"? Please
remind us not to ask you to be _vague and general_. ;->
SD> They must not be swayed by popular culture and fashion, what is
SD> considered to be the right thing at the time. [deletia]
SD> This is what skeptics are about; popular beliefs.
Stewart, when you _recuperate_ from whatever is scrambling the synapses,
you might re-enter this echo and ASK what skeptics are about. In the
meantime, you should eschew TELLING us what skeptics are about, in as
much as you have not the least particle of a clue on that subject.
Cheers,
Rick Moen
Member, Board of Directors
Bay Area Skeptics
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Eric Greene
To: Alethea Raspa
Sub: PAWNSHOP EMBLEM.
Date: 19 Jul 94 20:48:08
--------
EID:c5de 1cf3a600
MSGID: 1:133/208.1 2e2c74bf
Hiya Alethea -
10 Jul 94, Alethea Raspa writes to Dr Pepper:
-=>> Quoting Dr Pepper to Alethea Raspa <=-
PP>> So why are there three balls over the door of a pawn shop?
AA>> Three balls hang over pawn shop doors because they are from the
AA>> coat of arms of the Florentine d'Medici family
DP>> Medici as in medicine, they were doctors before they were bankers,
the
DP>> three balls were originally pills.
AR> I think you are thinking more about the Borgia Pope, Alexander IV. His
AR> children were often accused of poisoning their rivals, but Lucrezia
is
AR> generally credited with not being as bad as her brother's and father's
AR> enemies had painted her.
Does this include the fact that she was bedding her father and both brothers
a
nd Juan's murder is attributed to Caesar's desire to be his Lucrezia's sole
lo
ver? Sounds like a fine woman to me!
Eric
Internet: erg@america.net
eric.greene@index.com
--- GoldED 2.41
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From: Jeff Miller
To: John Moore
Sub: Numerology and Bible
Date: 21 Jul 94 9:43:10
--------
EID:9675 1cf54d60
MSGID: 1:3619/25@Fido 2e2e9d64
PID: CNet XFIDO 3.0
JM>A Googol is a one followed by a hundred zeroes. A googolplex is a
JM>googol to the googol power.
John, a googolplex is ten to the googol power (or 1 followed by a
googol of zeros).
JM>I wish I could attribute the mathematician who made it up, but I
JM>recall from an article by Isaac Asimov in the fifties than it was
JM>invented to entertain his young daughter. Asimov stated that a
American mathematician Edward Kasner claimed that he asked his nine-
year-old nephew Milton Sirotta what the number ought to be called,
and that his nephew suggested "googol."
I'd try to bring this back on-topic by discussing numerology, but the
subject is so ridiculous I can't!
--- CNet/3
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From: David Bloomberg
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Holocaust Denial
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:42:11
--------
EID:6dc9 1cf4ad40
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 442068bb
REPLY: 1:343/124.0 2e27592f
In a msg to David Macdonald on , Tad Cook of 1:343/124 writes:
TC> Have you read NAZIS, COMMUNISTS, KLANSMEN and Others On the Fringe,
TC> by John George and Laird Wilcox? Its published by Prometheus.
It's one of those books on my "to order" list. Have you read it? If so,
how
is it?
Did you get my message on POLITICS about the latest issue of SKEPTIC, and
its
articles on Holocaust revisionists?
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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From: David Bloomberg
To: John Powell
Sub: Stuff
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:45:05
--------
EID:afde 1cf4ada0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 4420742d
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , John Powell of 1:261/1201
write
s:
JP> - Director Special Projects
DB> Oooooh, can I have it? ;-)
JP> Sure, if you really want it . Here's how it works: I pick a
JP> special project, more or less outline what/why/how, you do most but
not
JP> necessarily all of the grunt work delegating to volunteers as you can,
JP> you/me (and others) finalize a report. Something like 2 to 4 projects
JP> a year depending on how it goes.
I would have to do GRUNT work?! With a "Director" title? Sheesh...
JP> I'm not interested in rehashing old stuff or in assembling FAQ-like
JP> material. I also want to mostly avoid UFO stuff whenever possible.
JP> (In case folks haven't figured it out yet the so-called UFO Phenomenon
is
JP> finished, over, done...)
It is? Ok, I give up, what was the solution? :-)
JP> I won't tell you what the first project is but here's a hint: It
JP> happenned rather recently and has never been researched or
JP> investigated.
Hmmmm. Well, I kind of have my hands full with REALL now. If all that
grunt
work weren't involved, I'd consider it, but... Ah well.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: John Powell
Sub: Stuff
Date: 20 Jul 94 21:47:54
--------
EID:afde 1cf4ade0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 44207b71
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , John Powell of 1:261/1201
write
s:
JP> Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network Journal
JP> "Odyssey Journal"
DB> Do you accept skeptical articles as well?
JP> Of course. No opinions, only actual work...
What constitutes actual work? Would Kottmeyer's articles, for example,
consti
tute actual work -- such as his comparisons between the "memories" of supposed
abductees and the science fiction TV shows and movies they may very well
have
seen?
JP> However, this Journal doesn't exist. In much the same way that I run
the
JP> Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network, I made this available a long
tim
e
JP> ago in case folks wanted to do it and so far there haven't been any
JP> takers.
Ah well.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: Terry Smith
To: Lewin Edwards
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 15 Jul 94 10:16:51
--------
EID:6597 1cef5200
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e269a0f1
REPLY: 3:634/396 2e21ed8c
On <11 Jul 1994 > Lewin Edwards wrote to Terry Smith:
LE> And what's the difference (besides a little pronunciation
LE> difference) between referring to things as "evil spirits" or
LE> "bacteria" (or whatever) ? Just a word.
Depends on whether you prefer penicillin, or getting a beating to drive
the sp
irits out I guess. Still, if you prefer the latter, it seems to be making
a co
me back - after all, burning all HIV positive people at the stake will slow
th
e spread of the disease.
It would have worked then too, they just didn't catch the diseases early
enoug
h.
Terry Smith
--- timEd-B11
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--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:04:53
--------
EID:eb3c 1cf16080
SS>>> While there is no such thing as a "victim,"
JF>> I don't know what your definition of 'victim' is, but the above
JF>> statement would seem to contradict itself.
SS> Just because others may <> choose to be 'victimized'
in
SS> some way (which all of us do), is no excuse for someone else to
SS> <> benefit at someone else's expense.
But how can one "Choose" to be victimised if noone is victimising them?
Hence, by victimising someone, I'm actually helping them by doing what they
want. And if that victimisation helps me, then all the better. Everyone
wins (and if they don't then they wanted to lose.)
So we should repeal all laws, scrap all government, and let people believe
their fate.
SS> then I'm clear it's <> and I don't wail and moan about
SS> having been a 'victim.' I didn't to put someone before me, I
SS> <> to.
SS> On the other hand, if I do embark on something that will unavoidably
SS> cause someone to be hurt, I realize that on some level they <>
SS> chose to be hurt.
We had someone awhile back say essentially the same thing. Joanne felt
that we all had a belief-reality. Being somewhat distant from the beliefs
of the Newage movement, I had thought it was a fairly limited belief this
century. Apparently not.
The reaction most of us gave to the "Victim by choice" claims was the
example of rape/murder/etc. The extremes of victimisation. Your no-victim
reality would imply that when a rapist stalks a women, she's choosing to
be
stalked, when attacked, she's choosing to be raped. Any time she chooses,
she can stop it with a mere change of her mind.
A murder likewise. The victim chooses to be killed. A growth experience,
no doubt. (Hey, perhaps OJ Simpson's 127 lawyers could use that in court.
Do you think it'll work if OJ believes hard enough?)
And I expected Joanne to say "No, no, I never said that" and explain a
subtler version (Like a rape victim didn't choose to be raped, but she
chooses not to recover emotionally. Or something similar.) But instead,
Joanne agreed with the content, if not the tone, of the examples. Yes,
the
ultimate cliche is true, rape victims "wanted it".
(OTOH, when she waxed on about one of her hates, vaccinations (because a
few kids per thousand each year react badly, some fatally. She wanted kids
to be trained to "Choose" not to catch diseases) she didn't seem to apply
her own choice-reality to the kids who died. Surely they chose to die.)
Soooo, I take your claims to their extreme not to ridicule, (Or not _just_
to ridicule :-) but to see if you do take your belief system that far.
Nix.
Ps. Thanks for adding you netmail number to so many messages. (I'm not
organised enough to do something intelligent like write it down _before_
I
need it.) Is there any reason why your sysop won't change his/her origin
line. From memory, Fido policy insists on it. (Too hard to send netmail
otherwise)
... Hypochondria getting you down? Try new extra strength Placebos.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
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--------
From: Paul Feonic
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: Re: Fringe science?
Date: 17 Jul 94 12:39:30
--------
EID:9a98 1cf164e0
RM>> That's meaningless, except in the sense that _everything_ is composed
RM>> of mass-energy. [] That has nothing at all to do with identifying
RM>> disease-causing agents.
SS> If, as you originally said (and I agree), all matter and energy do
SS> originate at the quantum level. And if, as you now repeat, everything
SS> is composed of mass-energy. Then disease-causing agents, which are
SS> part of "everything" also originate at the quantum level.
No. Disease causing agents originate at the complex molecular level.
That is, while the most basic particles are quantum in nature, they are
not
diseases. An electron in a cancer cell is no different than an electron
in
a carrot. Do carrots cause cancer? The basic atoms, ions, or very simple
basic molecules are also not diseases. A hydroxyl is a hydroxyl is a
hydroxyl. The disease only becomes a disease when taken as a whole,
macro-molecular, product.
What gets confusing is that most diseases cure themselves (Most of the
time, doctors still only treat the symptoms and try to prevent further
complications), and the brain _does_ affect the body. (As anyone with a
stressful job, or fretful animal, knows.)
But that effect is caused by electrochemical reactions in the brain
releasing (Or causing to be released) chemicals in the body. Those
chemicals have an effect on the body. Nothing mystical, nor requiring new
energies or particles.
If the body is physically unable to cure a disease (Or any illness) no
amount of prayer and positive thinking will. Even _if_ the PEAR lab results
are correct, thought still couldn't effect macroscopic matter on a noticeable
level.
Just like some drugs can cause athletes/animals to perform faster and
better than non-drug using a/a. But those athletes and animals are still
bound by the physical limits of their strength/energy/etc. Some people
can
do that through will-power and confidence. Or prayer. But it just does
the
same things to the body as the drug, no more, usually less.
That doesn't mean that thought has _no_ effect, quite the opposite. But
even if thought occurs due to quantum interaction, the effect on the body
occurs due to molecular interaction and is always limited by the
capabilities of those molecules and the structures they are part of.
Nix.
... Dining With Elvis. Ahuh Huh.
--- Blue Wave/Opus v2.12
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From: Rod Speed
To: Gary Quinton
Sub: ritual mutilation
Date: 14 Jul 94 13:43:58
--------
EID:223c 1cee6d60
TS> uses it's tail for a great deal of communication, including
TS> threat/submission display, greeting, warning ect., it most certainly
TS> does constitute maiming, and can lead to crippling -
RS> Crap. The breeds that have docked tails manage fine, regardless of
RS> this stuff about the use of tails. Essentially the use of tails is
RS> just one part of dog communication and they managed without it.
GQ> Hey! just like the tolerant attitude of the Ellen James society from
GQ> the World According to Garp. Lets all cut our tongues out! We can use
GQ> our hands to communicate...
Damn, could have sworn I used my eyes and fingers quite a bit. Just knew
I was doing it wrong.
GQ> Although personally, a little mutilation of animals is not a bad
GQ> thing if practiced in excess...
Some of the humans even mutilate themselves. Even in first world countrys.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Richard O'donovan
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 14 Jul 94 14:01:00
--------
EID:5956 1cee7020
RS> (to the onlookers, Stew has been doing precisely the same thing in
RS> the local Science echo, howling about how useless scientists are and
RS> that we should all join the one true religion, Draperism, with Stew
RS> doing an excellent imitation of a tele-evangelist)
RO> Have you so little faith in the participants here that they can't
RO> fend for themselves?
Who said anything about them not being able to fend for themselves. I am
quite sure most of them can actually. There are other possibilitys.
RS> You left out the 'closed mind' and 'religion' bit here this time.
RS> Or are they reserve ammunition ? |-)
RO> Maybe they'll appear when someone poses an argument!?!
Thats what reserve ammunition means.
SD> It's understandable that people would fight something rather than
SD> try to understand it,
RS> Or it could be they do actually try to understand why some people
RS> like the fringe loonys believe what they believe, like being abducted
RS> by aliens and experimented on. Gives them something to talk about I
RS> guess.
RO> What about an open mind?
Personally I think the evidence shows thats about the least likely
explanation. As the detail of the people being tossed out of I_UFO shows
so utterly clearly. Not my idea of how people with an open mind operate.
Havent seen a better example of closed minds in quite some time.
RO> If all that can be done to dismiss such claims is to label the
RO> people making them as "fringe loonys",
Rather a leap of logic here. Yes, IF that is all that can be done.
No that is not in fact all that can be done or has been done with
people who claim stuff like that. And since it was just an example,
not intended to be a definitive statement on the complete question
of alien abduction...
RO> then surely you're proving Stewarts case.
Pretty pathetic proof if thats all the proof there is.
RO> If you have automatically dismissed such ideas out of hand,
Again, IF. If in fact I have considered the evidence which purports to
prove that aliens actually abduct people and experiment on then, find
they have no proof, but believe anyway, it might well be valid to call
them 'fringe loonys'. Various fringe loonys will not doubt get their
noses out of joint when they read that. Thats their problem |-)
RO> then there can be no room for them being true
Corse there is, if they provide rigorous scientific evidence that they
have been abducted by aliens and experimented on, thats fine by me, I
will then say, 'oh goody, for the first time we have hard scientific
evidence that aliens abduct people and experiment on them'. And I will
stop going out at night into farmers fields so it doesnt happen to me.
RO> - irrespective of whether they objectively are or not. Isn't such
RO> paltry narrow mindedness a perfect example of what Stewart said?
Nope, just you missing the point utterly.
SD> I don't think it's a good attempt at finding the truth, but it's a
SD> very good attempt at being popular and agreed with.
SD> Skeptics are popularists in wolfs clothing,
RS> Yeah, vintage Stewart Draper, find as many bad words as you can, claim
RS> thats what the group is. Did you just search and replace 'scientists'
RS> for 'skeptics' ?
RO> I'm new to this echo,
Oh well, just dont complain about the scorch marks |-)
RO> so I don't know what passes for an argument, but this certainly what
RO> I would call one.
And since thats precisely what Stew was hoping for, and I am much too well
mannered to just studiously ignore him, thats hardly surprising |-)
RS> Atleast this one is only a page or so of tripe, something to be grateful
RO> Were you referring to his post or yours?
You have a lot to learn clearly, this approach is much too transparent |-)
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 14 Jul 94 21:35:20
--------
EID:816e 1ceeac60
SD> What I was simply stating was that skeptics as a modus operandi work
SD> of skepticism or negative prejudice bases. If you use concepts and
SD> considerations that are rigidly followed to answer the unknown, you
SD> will always get an unknown.
Bullshit Stew, you are just playing with yourself again. If you apply a
method which is known to work well for separating dud proposals or claims
from proven ones, whether thats the scientific method, or skepticism, you
actually have an approach which gets at the truth. Pretty simple really.
Its only rigid in the sense that it demands evidence and proof instead of
operating from the basics of 'well I am a smarty pants and thats why when
I say an alien visited, it must have'
SD> There is a use for skepticism no doubt when others would attempt to
SD> lie and cheat.
Or when they are deluding themselves and they saw Venus instead.
SD> But there are many unknown phenomena out there
Yes, there is lots thats not thoroughly understood yet.
SD> that need to be looked at in a different way.
Nope, just keep looking in the same way and eventually understand those
bits too. Sure beats sitting under a crystal and praying for divine
guidance on just why the ozone layer is changing.
SD> One has to work backwards when dealing with the unknown; one must
SD> question ones own preconceived notions.
Sounds good like much of this waffly stuff does. Its basically just
waffle tho Stew. Take a collection of fancy words and concepts, put into
a blender, churn for a while, pour them into an email message and hope
they sound impressive. They dont, they are just waffle.
SD> Finding the truth is no laughing matter and cannot be done so
SD> obviously and easily as you may think. The truth is out there but you
SD> need to broaden your horizons of understanding if you are to attempt
SD> to find it. I only write to aid you in your search, nothing more.
See, this stuff is a classic example of it. All you have really done is
take some good words, 'truth', 'broaden your horizons' blend for a while
and produce some tripe. All a bit useless when attempting to actually
get any closer to understanding how things work tho. Truth if you like,
SD> If you don't accept what I say then ok and don't write me back and
SD> tell me I'm a dill. As this is of no consequence as I know what I
SD> know.
And you obviously think 'I know what I know' is the irrefutable proof of
all your claims. Stewart Draper the messiah, here to bring enlightenment
to us all and save us from our poor benighted existence where we just
cant see where we are going wrong and just need you to point it out.
Corse its actually far more likely you really are a dill and know SFA too.
SD> The first thing a skeptic does is to relate everything back to a
SD> fundamental known.
Nope, demands evidence.
SD> The problem in this is that the fundamental known may infact be
SD> something different that what it is taken for.
And the world may be a pimple on the bum of a gigantic pink elephant
too. Might not be too.
SD> You need to look at a problem form as many angles as possible, using
SD> as much information as you can get your hands upon.
And discarding the waffle and fanciful crap so you can see if anything
really is actually going on at all. Or is it another loon too long
between pills.
SD> I have noticed skeptics seem to chuck anything out without really
SD> looking into it if it vaguely smells fishy. And in this case
SD> anything that smells fishy is everything that isn't commonly agreed
SD> to.
Pathetic. You presumably dont realise you are just the latest in a long
line of loons saying precisely that in here. Doesnt make it come true
repeating that mantra tho.
SD> Take religion vs science of old; science took a bagging due to the
SD> power of the church. Nowadays this old law is being used by science
SD> against anything else it comes up against.
Its complete bullshit Stew. Just playing with words.
SD> Could the scientists of today be as blind as the religionsist of old;
SD> sticking to fundamental and agreed-upon concepts of reality?
Well, since they keep coming up with new knowledge which can be thoroughly
established by rigorous science as being an accurate description, the
short answer is NO. Not that Stew is likely to notice tho.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Lewin Edwards
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 14 Jul 94 16:03:22
--------
EID:6da8 1cee8060
TS> and disease are caused by evil spirits, the world was created in
TS> seven days and if you sail out far enough, you will fall of the
TS> edge of the world.
LE> Not so far off the truth, only a little bent.
Totally wrong in fact.
LE> As we all know, you just have to sail FAST enough as well and you sure
LE> will fall off the edge of the world.
We dont really know that.
LE> And what's the difference (besides a little pronunciation difference)
LE> between referring to things as "evil spirits" or "bacteria" (or
LE> whatever) ? Just a word.
Then you might as well just say something happens because of 'things'.
Doesnt get you very far tho.
And the difference is that when you understand how smallpox works you can
eliminate it completely. You cant with demons. Worthwhile improvement IMO.
Sure seems a heap more productive to be able to conclude there aint much
point in human sacrifice for a good crop and what you need is the right
variety and planting conditions.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: The ultimate skeptic defi
Date: 14 Jul 94 21:47:26
--------
EID:7b49 1ceeade0
SD> The ultimate skeptic is defined as one who follows all known and
SD> travelled routes in finding an answer for the unknown.
Nope, that just goes to show the danger of taking a commentary on
scientists and search and replacing that word to skeptics. Doesnt work
too well at all |-)
SD> A skeptic is one who seeks agreement based upon commonly held beliefs
SD> at the time, and nothing more.
Nope, does nothing of the sort.
SD> A skeptic is therefore close-minded and prejudiced before even looking
SD> at something.
Well, since you got the first two wrong, you have a real problem with
the 'is therefore' then dont you |-)
SD> Without looking at something with the intention of understanding it,
SD> you will not find the truth behind it.
Thats crap too. Some of the most dramatic discoverys have come by accident.
SD> If you look to find all false things, then you will find only those
SD> false things that you are looking for.
Playing with words Stew. How unusual.
SD> The human mind will always solve problems based upon previous
SD> experience.
Nice theory Stew, now explain how revolutionary new stuff is discovered.
How did viruses get discovered if that silly proposition was true.
SD> And if previous experience is based upon a totallity of belief in
SD> explained phenomena and a totallity of unbelief in un-explained
SD> phenomena; then you will not find an answer.
Damn, that doesnt explain how answers have been found. Maybe that means
there is a hell of a problem with that tidy explanation then.
SD> The human mind can always come up with answers to problems as it can
SD> create possible answers that seem plausible and can be agreed upon.
Playing with words again, stoppit, you will go blind.
SD> All scientific evidence is only as good as the person viewing it.
Utter crap Stew, the whole point of rigorous science is to ensure quite
the reverse, that the observer does not contaminate the evidence. Thats
why double blind trials were invented for example.
SD> Anything that cannot be agreed upon is not conclusive to the masses.
Still playing with words to no useful purpose.
SD> Anything experienced by the individual is experienced with their own
SD> capacities which may be more than the masses.
And that sentence doesnt even make sense.
SD> If you seek to find answers to life using scientific methods alone
Depends on what answers you are seeking. Anyway we already know the
answer to life, the universe and everything, its 42.
SD> you will find yourself looking into physical events as we know them
to
SD> be only. There is more to this, as individuals have discovered above
SD> and beyond meagre scientific means of understanding.
SD> Blindness will disappear as understandings take hold!
Hallelujah Brother, salvation in our time.
SD> Dogmatic skeptics band together in bunches, following and thinking
SD> alike in one un-ending chain of thought agreement based upon meagre
SD> scientific methods. Science is good for materiality, but not to find
SD> the answers too life and unknown phenomena!
Funny that, maybe you would care to explain how science has actually
managed to do what you claim it cant.
SD> Please disagree with me; after all that's what skeptics are about
SD> isn't it. You may think I am ignorant, yes indeed I am, I am gladly
SD> ignorant of your realities and hair-brained concepts.
Request denied.
--- PQWK202
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From: Lewin Edwards
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 15 Jul 94 22:54:36
--------
EID:82e2 1cefb6c0
MSGID: 3:634/396 2e274ce1
#undef REALITY
RS> Tom Watson, the font of IBM, pontificated at one time that the world
woul
d
RS> only have a need for 5-10 computers. Everyone would use one of those.
One
RS> of the silliest predictions of all time.
Not really. There is essentially only one telephone network in the world
(excl
uding intercom type systems in highly localized environments). We all use
it.
In a similar fashion, it is conceivable that the world's computing power
could
be concentrated in a [decentralized, for military reasons] pool of gigantic
C
PU horsepower. Where's the need for a PC if you have trillions of exabytes
of
information and a myriad online services, VANs etc, accessible via a simple,
_
easily replaced_, _cheap_, _non-vulnerable_ dumb terminal ?
-- Lewin A.R.W. Edwards (deceased)
#define REALITY
--- GoldED 2.41+
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From: Sue James
To: JEFF FREEMAN
Sub: Re: 1:232/10 Holograp
Date: 16 Jul 94 21:39:00
--------
EID:ac80 1cf0ace0
-> As Jeff was looking at John in *that* tone of voice ...<-
Hi Jeff,
Hope it's ok to add a thought or two here. I missed the
original message from Sweet Sue, but hope I'm not way off beam .. 8-)
JF> I think you wanted to send that to SS, as I am also having trouble
JF> understanding the concept that victim's share some responsibility.
JM> Transferring to the recipient of some hurt the
JM> responsiblity for bringing it on themselves, even though you concede
to
JM> having been the agent, absolving yourself for any and all
JM> responsibility
JF> Well, as SS pointed out, not *all* of the responsibility, but just
JF> some of it -- which I am having trouble swallowing, nonetheless.
I certainly wouldn't absolve the "agent" (the one causing the hurt) of
any responsibility - I am in full agreement with you there.
But I feel it is *also* the way we choose to perceive and
respond to situations that causes us to be hurt.
Other people only have the power over us that we *let* them have.
For example if you were particularly nasty to me [grin], then sure the
responsibilty for your actions lies with you. But whether or not I allow
those comments to affect me is, in part, *my* responsibility.
So... the recipient *is* responsible in his/her choice of response. But
I for one do not see that this offers a cop put for the "perpetrator"
either!!
I guess it's related to the human doormat syndrome too. After all, if a
person continually allows him/herself to be used or abused, most ppl
would be horrified at the actions of the users and abusers - their
actions are in no way right or excusable. But *part* of the
responsibility for the *continuation* of the situation lies with the
person on the receiving end.
And hey, I realise all this is generalising to an incredible extent -
and there are times where the "abusee" is powerless to get out
of the situation. Also I am not saying for one moment that anyone has
the right to deliberately hurt another human being. But every one of us
has the responsibility for our own emotions actions, and saying "You
made me feel ... " or "You made me do ...." is just not valid.
Don't know if I've explained that clearly enough. A bit of a case of
late night spaghetti-brain .. [grin] But I hope it makes sense.
Just thought I'd put in my two cents' worth into an interesting thread
.. 8-)
Cheers,
Sue (J .. [g] ) Two of us makes it confusing [sigh]
... Another day, another challenge.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- EzyQwk V1.10g004fa001b
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--------
From: Jackson Harding
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 18 Jul 94 07:59:00
--------
EID:95ef 1cf23f60
MSGID: 3:800/857 2e2a366e
Hello Rod!
Thursday July 14 1994, Rod Speed writes to Stewart Draper:
RS> Pathetic. You presumably dont realise you are just the latest in a long
RS> line of loons saying precisely that in here. Doesnt make it come true
RS> repeating that mantra tho.
Please, disect his arguments, but refrain from the personal attacks.
Bye for now,
Jackson
--- FMail/386 0.98a+
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From: Terry Smith
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Subliminal Messages on Songs
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:41:23
--------
EID:c882 1cf07520
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e282a6c0
REPLY: 3:690/245.0 2e1f62fa
On <09 Jul 1994 > Adrian Eng wrote to All:
AE> Hi All
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs
AE> nowadays?
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola
AE> got sued BAD for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the
AE> coke sign sublimina-ing implanting coke in our subconcious.
AE> Guess why!
I have a simple request to make Adrian. Where were they sued, when, and
how mu
ch was the award? As you're the one who profered this information, I'm sure
yo
u can back this claim up.
Yours in eager anticipation;
Terry Smith
--- timEd-B11
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--------
From: Terry Smith
To: Don Allen
Sub: Superconductivity info! 2/3
Date: 16 Jul 94 14:46:07
--------
EID:10ea 1cf075c0
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e282a6c1
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6090dd64
On <12 Jul 1994 > Don Allen wrote to All:
DA> * Forwarded from "I_UFO"
DA> * Originally by Walter Bartoo
DA> * Originally to Glenda Stocks
DA> * Originally dated 9 Jul 1994, 9:42
DA> programming was dezigned to do. If you study how our
DA> society was dezigned and how direct social programming was
DA> dezigned, worked and was built into it by those controling
DA> us and doing this you begin to see the plan used to
DA> manipulate everyone in it their advantage. You can't control
DA> a free thinker who has risen above it, they wont allow it.
I see! Evolution isn't the danger in schools, the real enemies are spelling
an
d grammar.
Then again, can we believe him? He's evidently a scientist.
Terry Smith
--- timEd-B11
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From: Terry Smith
To: John Prewett
Sub: Debating Fundos
Date: 16 Jul 94 23:02:49
--------
EID:1f7e 1cf0b840
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e28a5130
REPLY: 1:355/2.12@fidonet AA47127F
On <11 Jul 1994 > John Prewett wrote to Terry Smith:
JP>
JP> The article in question merely presented some facts re:
JP> DNA that the consensus of science has accepted for a
JP> couple of decades.
JP> We aren't (at least at this point) debating
JP> scientifically revealed fact. Rather, the issue (as
JP> far as I'm concerned) is what those facts mean or don't
JP> mean re: the likelyhood of a Creatorless origin of life.
Science doesn't 'reveal' facts, it takes hypotheses as disproven, or not
dispr
oven. For those hypotheses that are not disproven, if testable arguments
can b
e sustained as to how they may explain observed phenomea, the are accepted
as
working hypotheses. The 'likelyhood' of a creatorless origin of life is
not ad
dressed by science, unless you take an assumption of the possibility of
explai
ning lifes physical origins as being a product of the natural processes
observ
ered in the physical universe, as having theological significance. This
is not
a theological echo.
JP> Scientist who have revealed intricacy and organization which provides
JP> evidence the atheist POV is a delusion
TS> Scientists who prove negatives based on their subjective impression
TS> of the philosophical viewpoints of assumed 'enemies'. Tell me more.
JP> Individuals who desire to know "truth", whether
JP> members of the "scientific", legal, historical, or
JP> theological camps, IMHO, have no reason to view each
JP> other as "enemies".
Which is why I wondered about, and asked for more clarification on your
commen
ts. An observation of a planets rotation, the translation of the Dead Sea
scro
lls, assessment of the metabolic aftermath of stress by an analysis of cerebro
-spinal fluid - none of these things has a 'faith'.
TS> Science _is_ 'atheistic - without GOD, as teleological explanations
TS> are not part of science. The need to invoke 'God' as a mechanism is
a
TS> scientific way of saying 'and a miracle occured.' This has nothing at
TS> all to do with the practitioners personal belief. If you believe one
TS> can quantify 'Godness', or propose controls to discount the presence
TS> of God in an experiment, I'd be interested in hearing your proposal.
JP> IMHO, to succeed, such an experiment must be within
JP> the parameters of God's chosen terms of
JP> revelation.
To even get off the starting grid,one must find an acceptable method of
assess
ing what that is. I realise you have your opinion - but that is all it is,
not
hing more.
For the operation of 'creation' to be a part of science, we need one of
two th
ings IMO. Either a 'creation event' which has left traces we can study,
or a d
istinction between 'created' and 'none-created' material. Please consider
that
last sentence, as it contains an important clue as to how science operates.
This is an echo for the consideration of testable claims. If, as I suspect,
yo
u are endevouring to introduce the oft rejected political agenda of 'creationi
st "science" [sic]' then I would suspect the moderator will close it down
quic
kly. If, on the other hand, you have testable claims which you wish to propose
, or evidence of logical falacies in some of the theories concerning the
obser
ved fact of evolution, I would be delighted to see them, and respond if
I am c
onversant with your topics.
JP> IOW: if one's "experiment" is on the order of:
JP> "God, if you are real then come shake my hand",
JP> then I sincerely doubt God will comply.
Some claim that is a valid method, but the results are not amenable to objecti
ve observation.
JP> The only means that I am aware of, of conducting what
JP> could be characterized as a publicly visible and
JP> verifiable "experiment" re: God is via the concept of
JP> prophecy and fulfillment.
Evidently Jupiter is not that important in the plan, though it could be
argued
He _did_ arrange for the Gallileo craft to be in a reasonable spot:-)
Terry Smith
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From: Hong Ooi
To: Sweet Sue
Sub: Fringe science?
Date: 16 Jul 94 17:54:48
--------
EID:8011 1cf08ec0
MSGID: 3:712/559.1 2e28598f
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
Sweet Sue wrote to Rick Moen on 02 Jul 94 17:57
RM>> That's meaningless, except in the sense that _everything_ is composed
RM>> of mass-energy. Your lunch is composed of mass-energy. Mt. Rushmore
RM>> is composed of mass-energy. That has nothing at all to do with
RM>> identifying disease-causing agents.
SS> If, as you originally said (and I agree), all matter and energy do
SS> originate at the quantum level. And if, as you now repeat, everything
SS> is composed of mass-energy. Then disease-causing agents, which are
part
SS> of "everything" also originate at the quantum level. Otherwise, there
SS> must be some new mathematical proof I'm unaware of which disproves the
SS> old "if A=B and B=C then C=A."
I don't see the point of your argument. Just because disease-causing agents
ar
e mass-energy, just like everything else, says nothing about how they behave
a
t scales beyond sub-atomic. The fact that quantum effects are indiscernible
at
everyday scales should be obvious to everyone.
RM>> The premise is absurd, rendering the conclusion moot. "Consciousness
RM>> is the orchestrator of matter manipulation" is a statement devoid of
RM>> scientific utility: It makes no predictions, has no testable
RM>> consequences, explains no phenomena.
SS> The premise is absurd and/or devoid of scientific utility? There is
no
SS> means of reasoning with you on this point since you find both the
SS> premise and the conclusion absurd. Just so, I cannot understand what
SS> the need is to make a prediction or explain a phenomenon or test
SS> consequences, if it can simply be accomplished that by setting our minds
SS> a given way, a specific and desired outcome can be achieved. One is
SS> more expedient than the other.
Now, how do you _know_ that "setting your minds a given way" will in fact
resu
lt in specific and desired outcomes? How do you _know_ that what happened
does
in fact have any real link with your own actions? If your hypothesis makes
no
measurable predictions, you have no way of validating it.
I'm not saying that the hypothesis that psychic energies can have real effects
is _wrong_. I'm saying that there is no _evidence_ that it is _right_. (Or,
e
xtremely little evidence.) Given that, why should we make allowances in
our ev
eryday lives for the effects of psychic energies?
RM>RM>> .... nyone could cause specific macro-scale events by "thinking
RM>RM>> positive thoughts"
SS> Finally, we agree on something.
I think Rick is quoting someone else...
[...]
SS> Read my response to Rick MacFarlane re my teeth/gums. It is perfectly
SS> reasonable of me to conclude that if I can influence and change
SS> something like this, I can also (given strong enough motivation and
SS> desire) change something which happened in the past so long as it does
SS> not involve another human being.
? Are you sure about that? How do you _know_ that your own actions will
have r
eal, specific effects on apparently independent events?
Hong
--- GoldED 2.42.G0614
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From: Rod Speed
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Spelling
Date: 15 Jul 94 12:05:26
--------
EID:d45d 1cef60a0
RM> The point, though, Pete, is that a highly useful distinction between
RM> the two words is gradually being eroded through sheer sloppiness and
RM> lack of thought, just as people are ignoring (and gradually
RM> obliterating) the _very clear_ difference between "condone" and
RM> "approve of" -- through sheer ignroance of the latter word, alone.
RM> ("Condone" properly means "turn a blind eye to", "ignore the
RM> existence of".)
RM> If you enjoy having a language capable of expressing distinctions,
RM> capable of precision, then it might be a good idea not to allow your
RM> usage to be dictated by the worst, least informed, least thoughtful
RM> (ab)users of it -- or you may soon find that clarity is no longer an
RM> option.
RS> OTOH its not always just one way either. Living languages change over
RS> time and there aint no point in just attempting to claim that there
RS> is just one pure way and all else is degradation.
RM> But I didn't say that.
Well, thats arguable.
RM> I rather resent your attributing this crude stereotype to me,
Thats life, try not to worry about it too much |-)
RM> since I never said anything of the sort.
Well, you studiously deleted what you did say, I have put it back. Sure,
I was using exaggerated language, but you were actually decrying just
the sort of thing that happens in a living language, a gradual change in
usage over time. In this case in a way which you perceive of as worse,
losing a 'useful distinction' thru 'sheer sloppiness'. That can
accurately be described as a degradation, deterioration. The language
appears to be going that way anyway, tho you can certainly make a case
that its undesirable. Not likely to make much difference to what happens
tho.
Another example is the blurring between 'can' and 'may' in the sense of
'can I ?'. The older usage is certainly more correct, fogeys have been
bemoaning that one for quite a few decades now, common usage is changing
anyway, like all living languages do.
RS> An example is the use of salubrious in the context of luxurious,
RS> desirable, not just the traditional meaning of healthy.
RM> This is a _metaphorical_ meaning -- not a modification of the
RM> original, as long as it continues to be recognised as metaphor.
Sure, there are differences. The 'can' and 'may' would have been a better
example to have chosen.
RM> Further, if that were to happen, no confusion or lack of ability to
RM> speak clearly will result, since context will suffice to make the
RM> meaning quite clear.
Sure. But there are other examples like 'you and me' and you and I', IMO
its worrying too much about stuff which really doesnt matter too much.
RS> Or the now almost dead strictly correct form of mothers-in-law
RS> becoming mother-in-laws.
RM> Are you suggesting that the latter form passes without comment
RM> _anywhere_?
Nope, I am suggesting that its becoming common usage and only the most
pedantic are likely to comment on it.
RM> I'm glad to say I've never heard it where I am.
I think its most unlikely to be the cause of the end of civilisation as
we know it. The curtains wont fade, the cat wont lose its fur.
RS> Living languages move on. Just like Nth American english differs from
RS> british english.
RM> So what?
That original of yours is just another example of living languages
changing over time. Usually with some people deploring the change too.
RM> You're now the second person to tell me this as if it should for
RM> some reason be news to me. Well, it's not
It was an example, not meant to be news. Its one technique used in
written expression, using examples.
RM> -- nor is it to any sentient biped over roughly the age of eight.
Like wow man |-)
RM> Yes, OF COURSE living languages move on. Sometimes they move in the
RM> wrong direction.
Yes, there are usually people who can be found to deplore any particular
change. It happens anyway.
RM> In those cases, if you're smart, you don't simply shrug and concede
RM> the inevitability of "movement" as you're carried over the cliff:
No, you piss against the wind and make your jeans rather smelly |-)
RM> To the contrary, you start tugging in the other direction.
Tug when ready Griddly, I dont expect to see it make a blind bit of
difference |-)
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: John Molloy
Sub: Re: SKEPTICAL OF SKEPTICS
Date: 16 Jul 94 13:18:10
--------
EID:6097 1cf06a40
SD> there will come a time in your life when the evidence for UFO's and
SD> OOBE, reincarnation and other strange phenomena of that ilk will shake
SD> you little world apart. Please investigate what I have said with an
SD> open-mind if you are at all interested in reality and the truth in
SD> life. I know I am right, and I know that you are wrong.
JM> Stewart, it must be wonderful to know you are right. The more I
JM> travel through this world, the less convinced I am that it is
JM> possible to know everything. Solid evidence of UFOs and OOBEs would
JM> fascinate my enquiring mind. So would a live interview with the tooth
JM> fairy.
Why dont you just ask Stew to put you in touch with some, he spends
quite a bit of time off with the fairys by the looks of it |-)
--- PQWK202
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From: Joe Slater
To: Gary Steinweg
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 17 Jul 94 22:44:00
--------
EID:dbd4 1cf1b580
Monday July 11 1994, Gary Steinweg writes to All:
GS> Taken from the Internet:
GS> FREE WILLY
GS> (original author unknown)
This was written by noted humorist Dave Barry, and is several years old.
I hav
e it in one of his collections somewhere. It was posted on his onetime Clarine
t column, and they will cheerfully sue the pants off you for infringing
their
copyright.
jds
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: What horrors wait for me in this, the Phantom's Opera? (3:632/351)
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--------
From: Alan Sawyer
To: All
Sub: ALIENS
Date: 17 Jul 94 09:13:04
--------
EID:bab9 1cf149a0
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Eval]
MSGID: 3:633/158.1305 2e294e53
Have the inhabitants of this area beaten the UFO/ALIEN/GOVERNMENT
COVERUP topic to death yet or can we start again.Here we go.
Signing off.....Alan
Member: AUSTREK,GATB,VAPA,PPC,CCC.
Space/U.F.O. NUT,X-Phile,Trekker,and Avid Gameplayer .
___________________________________________________________________________
Fidonet Address 3:633/158 or 3:632/103.
Warpnet Address 147:3701/8.
Usenet Address Alan.Sawyer@p1305.f158.n633.z3.fidonet.org OR
Mulder@cloud.apana.org.au
===========================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'I thought you only liked those...paranormal type cases.'-Scully to Mulder.
(X-FILES)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
... "Computer, delete WESLEY.EXE" - Entire Enterprise crew.
---
þ TLX v3.10 þ
--- FMail 0.96â
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From: Terry Smith
To: Denise Weinmann
Sub: {hm
Date: 19 Jul 94 11:16:30
--------
EID:b4d5 1cf35a00
MSGID: 3:800/846.23 e2be3443
REPLY: 1:396/65.0 2e23f22e
On <13 Jul 1994 > Denise Weinmann wrote to 6}T:
DW> %9;biN Q7ow?q4r6R$.A64@zLfIZ,Hx&?;RA@ @
DW> 5|6Hb+~AI]Ju|% Talk Radio told me today that "study after study" has confirmed that
JF> viewing violent programs (TV or movies) *definately* alters the
JF> behavior of children. Can anyone enlighten me here? Maybe name one
JF> of the studies and a source for reputable info? I was under the
JF> impression that this myth had been debunked.
RS> Depends on what you call 'alters the behaviour'. Clearly if little
RS> kids run around pretending to shoot each other, many of then can only
RS> have got that behaviour from what they watch.
VS> As a child, born in the first decade of this century, I played
VS> 'Cowboys and Indians' with other boys pretending to shoot them
VS> with a gun carved from wood. Television wasn't even a word then.
VS> We probably got the idea from the books we read. It may have added
VS> to what is innate.
I think they mostly got it from movies, westerns. Corse not all kids had
to have seen the movies, as long as some did.
--- PQWK202
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From: Marianne Szarka
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Science Of Simplicityÿ 0
Date: 17 Jul 94 19:41:00
--------
EID:9a9d 1cf19d20
MSGID: 3:712/505.0 2e28fcac
* message cross posted from Gtnet science by Paul Feonic
originally by Marianne Szarka
Hello Rick,
I've been reluctant to enter the Skeptics echo till Paul's cross
posting now, though I have been reading it for awhile off and on.
Curiously the postings from this base reaches my board only after some
extended time, some messages by as much as 13 days after the original
posting, which is slower than snail. Consequently it was quite 'eery'
to have debates I was reluctantly holding on Gtnet Science almost
echoed some days later in a paralell discussion right here re matters
of the para-normal etc which in fact were posted earlier than mine.
I then attempted to close off the similar discussion, particularly
since Sweet Sue and myself seemed to be mining similar veins, and
since my original posting was not intended to challenge the
'scientific mind-set', but rather to seek information. However these
things tend to 'evolve' so to speak.
Anyhow I don't want to go over similar ground yet again, so will
respond mainly to the astrological point, which I have been studying
as a curiosity for some years, without determining much more than that
some of its claims prove quite remarkably true while still others do
not. And to be sure I am not talking of sun-sign or pop-astrology
which is supposedly for amusement and does little for its reputation.
RM> PF>1. The Gauqualine's statistical proof of a Mars and Saturn effe
RM> PF> in natal astrological charts. (Astrology and Science, Michel
RM> PF> Gauquelin)
RM> Gauquelin did NOT allege that the curious apparent statistical ano
RM> _ambiguously_ on display in _some_ of the Mars Effect studies show
RM> anything more than a statistical anomaly. He was very clear on th
RM> point. (By the way, Gauquelin's claims had NOTHING to do with nat
RM> astrology charts. G. was severely anti-astrology, having even wri
RM> a tract against it called _Dreams and Illusions of Astrology_.)
I doubt if Gaquelin would have ascribed different meanings to his
studies in different books. Particularly the _some_ of the Mars Effect
studies you refer to above, strikes me as incongruous since it was
_one_ study as a whole (with separate studies done about different
planets) and the statistical facts resulting from it had nothing
'_ambiguous_' about them. My book at hand is The Truth about Astrology
by Michel Gauquelin.
"Astrology is a game of mirrors: you look at a mystery, it reflects
another. Its status is unique in the scale of scientific values. A
large part of its planetary symbolism has been demonstrated to be
incontrovertibly, statistically true. But at the same time, the zones
of daily movement of the planets to which astrologers attribute the
most influence are not necessarily the correct ones."
Gauquelin did indeed set out to prove astrology false, and that has
actually made his 30 odd year exhaustive, and replicated statistical
findings free of bias, or if anything tending to the negative, so his
results surprised even himself.
"I like to think that again it will be thanks to Mars, the
rebel planet against 'official' scientists, that astrology - as
stultified today as once astronomy was - will become a science, a
caterpillar at last transformed into a butterfly."
"I must never forget that the influence of the planets, even reduced
to the modest proportions I have assigned it, remains a provocation
for the average scientist today."
And Rick, even your brief paragraph above, whether
you're a scientist or not, testifies to this fact. It could be, I
suppose a natural bias and perhaps worn thin from repetition over the
years. Or else it's based on CSICOP's attempted cover-up of the Mars
Effect and its significance. (circa 1977)
CSICOP's unscientific attitude regarding the Mars effect had in fact
cast doubt as to the organization's (unrefereed at least) research
methods in 'paranormal' areas as well.
Though Gauquelin, at the end of this book says that "... today I would
not allow myself to draw drastic conclusions as I have sometimes done
in the past." he essentially has both for and against deductions.
"In astroglogy's favour, my work has demonstrated its fundemental
assumptions - the role played by astral influences at the moment of
birth. Moreover, the planetary effect on personality is compatible
with a a certain diagnostic application. On the basis of the natal
position of a planet in relation to the horizon and the meridian, it
.
Continued in the next message...
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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--------
From: Rod Speed
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: MONKIES AND EVOLUTION
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:02:20
--------
EID:be92 1cf25040
db> She: "Well, if evolution is true, then I ought to be able
db> to walk down the street and see a dog turn into a cat."
FR> It's no laughing matter. This week I've seen someone claim that,
FR> since rabbits don't turn into dogs, evolution doesn't happen. I can
FR> only come to the conclusion that their "leaders" are telling these
FR> people this nonsense.
rs> I think the real problem is that they really cant grasp it. They just
rs> dont appear to be able to look at say the wide variety of dogs which
rs> have been produced by human interference in the selection process,
rs> extend that back a million or so years to include the wider variety
rs> of cats and dogs.
FR> What a few want is that the various breeds of dogs change enough to
FR> be sexually isolated from their ancestors and thus be classed as a
FR> new species (I say a few because few even know what evolution is,
FR> leave alone know what they want to observe.) Yet that's been done at
FR> the microbiotic level and some few _still_ will not accept the fact
FR> of evolution. The somewhat "less dishonest" allow that, yes,
FR> speciation takes place at the microbiotic level but that in "higher"
FR> animals, it doesn't.
True, but IMO that only makes things worse with people like that. They
have enough problem with the larger animals like dogs and cats, move
into stuff like the microbiotic level and they are lost completely.
I know one fellow who is by far the most mechanically oriented person I
have come across personally. Can make you a pistol out of blocks of steel
anytime. Utterly hopeless at anything which cant be actually physically
seen tho, like electronics. Quite interesting actually because his father
is quite the reverse pretty hopeless with mechanical stuff, and spent his
working life in electronics.
I think there is a real sense in which the people who just cant accept
evolution, particularly amongst the general public, are most just too thick
to actually understand it.
Bit like theoretical physics, where a much larger number of people are
quite happy to admit they just dont understand the fundamentals and likely
cant even if they tried.
FR> Now the point is presented that, in biology, there is no such thing
FR> as "higher" or "lower" animals
I'm not convinced myself. Single celled animals are vastly less
sophisticated than say a human.
Ditto for the control processes of insects compared with a human.
Particularly the lower forms which essentially just react to chemical
differences in say the water they inhabit etc.
FR> and Creationists shift their focus of willful denial upon that factor
FR> if they are driven to acknowledge speciation.
Yeah, I think there is a very real sense in which they just reject
much of evolution because of the rather unpalatable consequences if it
was true. If we just evolved out of lower life forms, much of the
basic for religious belief, which IMO is mostly just a crutch for the
mind, is pulled away.
You can see how the religious can come to accept that the earth does
revolve around the sun, that doesnt pull the rug from under the
fundamentals of their beliefs.
rs> Bit like much of theoretical physics in many ways, it really is a
rs> hell of difficult thing for a lot of people to quite get their brain
rs> around. Even something like the dual particle/wave nature of light.
FR> Both are easilly experimental. The use of an electron source and
FR> a diffraction grid and applying the two-hole experiment easilly
FR> demonstrates the duality with the generation of interferience
FR> patterns.
Sure, but thats part of the problem. Sure, you can readily demonstrate
that electricity is the flow of electrons. But for some people that
conceptual stuff that cant actually be seen, and all you can do is use
experiments to prove its happening, is a hell of a mental hurdle that
they just cant surmount.
FR> The fossil record, coupled to observed natural selection and even
FR> speciation is also easilly understandable.
Again, easily understandable by those with the mental horsepower to do
so. I'm not convinced that most of the fundys can even grasp the
essentially simple concept that fossil formation is a very unusual
phenomena, particular with the higher life forms like hominids and its
hardly surprising if there are too many fossils of them.
The evidence of the similarity of the DNA between say humans and the
higher apes is even more graphic. But then you have the problem
getting the fundys to actually understand what the DNA actually is and
why that is significant.
FR> I think what is more difficult is accepting the fact that the
FR> advent of species is knowable. Understanding that there is
FR> nothing unknowable to the Human species seems to terrify some.
True, really rips the rug from under most of their religious beliefs.
Corse there is no reason why some god couldnt have just created
the circumstances of say the atomic structure, and left the rest
to get on with it and eventually produce humans by evolution. Cant
see any real prospect of the fundys going for that either tho |-)
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: John Prewett
Sub: Evolution
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:11:22
--------
EID:0f63 1cf25160
RS> No serious scientist that has ever considered the evidence has any
RS> doubt about it on the fundamentals. That the most sophisticated life
RS> forms have evolved from the least sophisticated ones.
JP> Not so.
RS> Is so.
JP> I presumed you meant Creatorless evolution, as opposed to "evolution"
JP> in the sense (due to intelligent input) that cars "evolve" (which I
JP> don't dispute).
I was saying that its clear that evolution happens, that the simpler
forms were around first, the more complex forms arrived later, building
on the simpler forms, evolving from them. Single celled animals being
around along before say apes.
I wasnt making any specific comment on intelligent input in the sense of
a designer interfering in the process. Its obvious what happened, its
less obvious what was involved in that process. There is no evidence for
any guiding hand.
JP> I apologize if I made an erroneous assumption re: your meaning of
JP> "evolution".
It now appears you did not make an error, there is no evidence for a
guiding hand in the process.
JP> Some scientist believe it is plausible that sans intelligent input
JP> (Creator), life could have originated and "evolved".
JP> And some don't.
And science isnt about 'some believe', science is about evidence.
RS> But here isnt an appropriate forum to discuss it, there are echoes
RS> specifically devoted to fundys flagrantly demonstrating their gross
RS> misunderstanding of the science.
JP> If you don't consider this worth discussion, or if you deem my input
JP> worthless, then I hope you'll not bother to respond.
I didnt mean that, I am happy to discuss it, just not clear just how far
is acceptible in here as far as evolution v creationism is concerned. So
far, seems acceptible to me, presumably Jackson will say if its not.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Rick Mcfarlane
Sub: ritual mutilation
Date: 18 Jul 94 10:41:24
--------
EID:3f91 1cf25520
TS> It seems plausible to me that one reason these breeds were docked was
TS> to lessen the chances of pack formation.
RS> Its essentially an appearance thing. There have been similar
RS> approaches with cropped ears. Some of the pack dogs are short tailed,
RS> cocker spaniels for example.
RM> I think you're right, Rod. My brother-in-law had two dobermans
RM> (dobermen? ), one that was never docked - floppy ears and long
RM> tail - and a second one that had been docked. The docked one _looked_
RM> much more fierce (especially because of the ears, rather than the
RM> tail) than the natural one (which looked like a large, long-legged
RM> daschund).
Yeah, its essentially playing on an unconscious recognition in many
people that pricked ears is a sign of a dog taking an active
interest in you and hence an increase risk of it applying the fangs.
OTOH some people can be remarkably insensitive to the fundamentals of
dog behaviour. I often had a Scottish Deerhound, looks quite similar
to an Irish Wolfhound, around at my place when the owner was away.
It would usually just lie inside the big glass doors which form the
main front door. Doziest animal I have ever had anything to do with,
when a visitor arrived, at times it wouldnt even look up. Extremely
gentle animal. Huge dog tho, tall and skinny like most of those very
large hounds that include Afghans and Borzois etc. It was always
amazing how many people couldnt even notice what a placid and gentle
dog it was, and thought themselves at real risk of getting bitten.
In this case it was more the size than anything else.
I also had a very large solid alsatian, very black fur, much blacker
than you normally see in an alsatian, with a massive wide shoulders
and chest. Extremely friendly dog. Just the coloration and size and
the barking was enough to fool most people, many thought that their
end was nigh |-)
RM> I believe, in the case of that breed at least, that was the reason
RM> that the practice began - to give the dog a more viscious appearance
RM> (erect ears make the dog seem more alert and threatening, while a
RM> wagging tail would detract fromthe image).
True. The same approach has a long military history, dressing up to look
more fierce than you really are. Some of the Japanese helmet style things
really did it in style.
Dogs do it on behaviour a hell of a lot too. There is a hell of an element
of bluff in a lot of dog aggressive behaviour. Fascinating to watch a pair
of dogs on either side of a picket fence with a gap in it. They will tear
up and down shouting their heads off at each other, then come to the gap
and there is usually a hell of a 'oh shit, what do we do now' type
reaction |-)
RM> Also, there was a definite difference in temperment between these two
RM> dogs, even though they were kept in the same houshold, and treated
RM> the same. This may have been due to natural personality differences,
RM> or the fact that the docked one was male, and the other was female.
That last makes a hell of a difference. In fact its very graphic evidence
against the proposition that humans behave in a sexually differentiated
way purely because of their upbringing. The difference is quite pronounced
in dogs, and in them it cant have been the upbringing. There is
considerable overlap, but there are also considerable differences at the
extremitys too.
RM> But, I can't help but speculate that perhaps, people reacted to the
RM> docked dog's appearance with more fear, which the dog was able to
RM> sense, making him more agressive.
Yeah, thats a very big effect with those sort of guard dog breeds. I
wouldnt hesitate to enter a used car yard with alsatians myself if there
was any need to. It mostly bluff and image.
Corse there are real breed differences too, blue heelers have some
damned odd behaviour, usually letting the burglar into the yard and give
him hell on the way out |-)
RM> I think this may also have been understood by the people who started
RM> the practice (at least in the case of that breed).
Yeah, animal breeding, particularly with dogs, is a classic example of
what you can achieve without understanding the science. There are some
quite remarkable special characteristics which have been amplified in
dog breeds. Particular the rounding up behaviour in some breeds, you can
watch even puppys do to chickens or little kids with no training at all
|-)
RS> Particularly when some of the breeds deliberately bred for fighting
RS> and viciousness dont have shortened tails. There is no obvious
RS> association at all.
RM> I doubt that his explanation (that it was done to impede pack
RM> formation) is right. There are probably different reasons for it
RM> with each breed where it is practiced.
Yeah, the breed which were developed for large animal attacking are
quite different in that stuff. The tail stuff and aura isnt that
important. Pig dogs too, what you want is a particular personality, the
appearance doesnt matter much, the boars dont give a stuff about it.
Particularly the hounds, they have a hell of a pursuit characteristic
amplified in them, they really are amazingly hard to stop if you get
them into a pursuit situation.
RM> Probably mostly to change appearance,
Yeah, I think some of its just appearance and nothing else, personal
taste. Weimaraners for example. No great logic in that half tail for a
gun dog.
RM> although perhaps sometimes for health reasons.
Dunno, I cant thing of a single example myself. The worst of the fur for
that is the spaniels, but you get long tailed examples like red setters
with the same fur.
RM> Why not breed the beggars to have short tails and erect ears in the
RM> first place ?
Its harder basically. It does happen, Manx cats for example.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Fringe science?
Date: 18 Jul 94 20:21:26
--------
EID:bf84 1cf2a2a0
RS> While I agree with the vast bulk of the stuff you said to Sue, there
RS> are some quibbles.
RS> ...
RS> Generally the term replication is used to describe experimental
RS> design which has its own duplication, replication. You would normally
RS> use the phrase 'independent experimental verification' or something
RS> like that for someone else doing the essentially the same
RS> experimentation themselves.
RM> You may well be right -- or we may each be right in slightly
RM> differing contexts. I'm not sure. However, I double-checked on the
RM> USENET alt.paranormal and sci.skeptic newsgroups, and found that both
RM> Roger D. Nelson and York H. Dobyns of the PEAR lab, in separate
RM> discussions, used the term the way I did -- for whatever that's
RM> worth. Those two fellows are both experienced and respected
RM> parapsychologists.
I was talking more about mainstream science. Particularly the biological
sciences where you need reps to actually show that you have a real
effect, say in a fertiliser trial.
--- PQWK202
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From: Rod Speed
To: Lewin Edwards
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 19 Jul 94 07:54:10
--------
EID:6da8 1cf33ec0
RS> Tom Watson, the font of IBM, pontificated at one time that the world
RS> would only have a need for 5-10 computers. Everyone would use one of
RS> those. One of the silliest predictions of all time.
LE> Not really.
Yes really.
LE> There is essentially only one telephone network in the world
LE> (excluding intercom type systems in highly localized environments).
Yes, but so what ?
LE> We all use it.
For voice, mostly relatively locally.
LE> In a similar fashion, it is conceivable that the world's computing
LE> power could be concentrated in a [decentralized, for military reasons]
LE> pool of gigantic CPU horsepower.
It certainly could be done that way, it would be a completely stupid way
to do things tho. It would be stupid to have just one massive computer
per city like Sydney and Melb even.
LE> Where's the need for a PC if you have trillions of exabytes of
LE> information and a myriad online services, VANs etc, accessible via a
LE> simple, _easily replaced_, _cheap_, _non-vulnerable_ dumb terminal ?
Small problem with the fact that the dumb terminal is actually pretty
close to the electronic complexity of the PC.
You clearly have the same fundamental mental problem that Tom had |-)
--- PQWK202
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From: Mea Hewitt
To: Rod Speed
Sub: DREAM SOLUTIONS
Date: 19 Jul 94 17:52:21
--------
EID:5e07 1cf38e80
RS> need exotic explanations like alpha patterns.
Brain wave patterns are not exotic. All of us have them at different
times and in different combinations.
Doctors exploring sleep disorders and REM sleep characteristics
do not consider them exotic.
mea
... þ Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: David Macdonald
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Melanoma
Date: 21 Jul 94 14:33:21
--------
EID:950a 1cf57420
MSGID: 1:232/310 1008f061
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Stuff
Dr. Pepper,
I think you are off-base on skin cancer. The form that tends to stay
localized and is seldom fatal is basal cell carsenoma; melanomas, on the
other hand, occur in a number of varieities, ar emuch more invasive and
much
more deadly, some forms extremely so.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: J. Moore
To: Dave Halliday
Sub: Re: Tesla Kooks
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:17:11
--------
EID:ca44 1cf37220
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 799014a7
DH> It is because of this flamboyance that he has become known as the
DH> archetypical "mad scientist" and has attracted the attention of people
DH> whose contributions to scientific exploration really *do* fall into
the
DH> mad-scientist category...
Actually, it was because (with the exception of his very smart work
with a/c current and induction motors) his ideas were kooky one and all.
And he blew all his considerable fortune (acquired from his non-kooky
work on a/c current and induction motors) on these kooky ideas.
* Q-Blue 1.0
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From: Mark Bellis
To: David Macdonald
Sub: 1:232/10 Holographic
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:fa52 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47c
DM>Remember what the "Airplane" schemes did to thousands of New Ager's bank
DM>accounts a few years ago?
I don't - could you please explain?
DM>It was a classical ponzi scheme tricked out in New
DM>Age warm and fuzzy new speak and it took thousands for millions.
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Mia Cline
Sub: ghosts
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:785d 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47d
MC> DB> I must have missed this earlier message. What was
MC> DB> her research in? What's her PhD in? Where can I
MC> DB> read the results of these studies?
MC>Parapsychology and you can read more about her and it in Omni magazine.
Errr...what University gives out Ph.Ds in Paraspsychology, and has she
published in any other scholarly reviews besides OMNI?
---
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Don Allen
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:3166 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47e
DA> * Forwarded from "I_UFO"
DA> * Originally by Sandy Doonan
DA> * Originally to Walter Bartoo
DA> * Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 17:28
DA>>>>> Hmmm....time will tell won't it?
DA>wb> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real
DA>wb> count down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
DA>You have your date off by a year. 1998 is when Henry Kissinger will
make h
i
DA>historic announcements to the world, backed up by the military might
of the
DA>United Nations. The steps required to barcode everyone in the world
are
DA>already in place and _that_ will be completed by the end of 1997. There
wo
n
"Military might of the United Nations"?? These are the guys that can't
stop a barfight in Bosnia.
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: BASIS
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:2ade 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47f
DP>My signature represents the old Dr Pepper logo, a redcircle with the
number
s
DP>arranged around the edge as on a clock.
DP>10 2
DP> DR PEPPER
DP> 4
^I should have guessed - but where's the 8 one would expect over
here?
Thanks, mark.bellis@canrem.com
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Bay Area Skeptic
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:0073 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef480
Hey Rick! How do I get the Bay Area Skeptics newsletter?
Thanks, mark.bellis@canrem.com
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 19 Jul 94 23:23:11
--------
EID:83ea 1cf3bae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef482
I'd like a ntsc VHS copy myself - If you can't get one, I might try
getting ahold of a copy from the Oregon TV station - will reply to you
if I find one first.
---
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From: J. Moore
To: Adrian Eng
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages o
Date: 21 Jul 94 14:00:11
--------
EID:3aa3 1cf57000
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a941e2c
TC> playing the song backwards, but there is NO EVIDENCE that
TC> this somehoe enters your consiousness and influences you.
AE> it's not the concious mind I'm worried about.. it's the SUB-concious
AE> mind I'm worried about! Your sub-concious never forgets!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yet another statement from you in this thread that is without basis.
"Prove it or lose it!"
AE> It seemed to work the first time but not the second
Find a reliable source for this, please. That means NOT the guy who
pushed this stuff in the first place (you know, the "sex in the ice
cubes" guy.)
AE> to listen to your problems and hopefully find something in your past.
He
AE> looks is your Sub-concious mind as it is the one controlling your life.
AE> Once the problem is located and resolved, your problem is long gone.
Only in the movies. Try again.
* Q-Blue 1.0
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 21 Jul 94 20:06:54
--------
EID:51d2 1cf5a0c0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 26f3ce08
REPLY: 1:125/27 f326d41b
On (18 Jul 94) Rick Moen wrote to Jeff Freeman...
RM> Well, you might be interested in dialing up this board (node 1:125/27,
RM> 415-572-0359), and file requesting or downloading LOGIC.FAQ and
RM> FALLACY.TXT. You'd probably find them interesting. I think I noticed
RM> that you run a point system, and my node doesn't mind points as
RM> calling systems, at all, if you want to file request.
On my way... :)
Thanks!
BTW: In the RECFRP echo, a ten year old named Joey Fox is asking about
an FM talk-radio show host named Bob Larson who is claiming some 15
murders in Florida were cause by young teens (as young as 11 yrs old)
playing D&D. As he told me, when they reach a certain point in their
"realms" they must kill a friend or parent (someone well known).
Do you have any info on this Larson guy, or these claims in particular.
I know... just another of a bazillion talk-show hosts with just another
of a bazillion or so allegations agains D&D.
What surprised me was that Joey sought out another point of view on his
own... and he's only 10. A young skeptic. :D
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Evolution
Date: 21 Jul 94 20:24:41
--------
EID:f339 1cf5a300
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 f270f161
REPLY: 1:125/27 f326d51b
On (18 Jul 94) Rick Moen wrote to Jeff Freeman...
RM> JF>Question: A Horse and Donkey can mate and the offspring is a Mule
RM>
RM> You probably already know the answer, really: Conceptually, a species
RM> is all the animals that in theory could breed with one another and
RM> produce _fertile_ offspring. I've never heard of a fertile mule, but
[sigh] I just got my monthly issue of The Plain Truth (they've been
sending it for a year with a "this is your last issue unless you renew!"
warning) and coincidentally, there's an article on Evolution:
*** I quote, in part:
If evolution is to work, then this [macroevolution] is what must happen.
But -- and this is crucial to understanding why some scientists see a
problem with the theory -- it has never been demonstrated that
macroevolution does happen! In fact, the evidence seems to point to an
entirely different conclusion.
These scientists believe that because this fundamental premise of
evolution has not been confirmed, the present conclusions inadequately
explain the origin of new species when examined by science's own rules.
Rather than show that life gradually develops from simple to complex,
the fossil record seems to indicate that life-forms appear abruptly,
exist with only minor variations for millions of years, then, on
occassion, abruptly become extinct.
*** I end quote.
It seems to me that we DO have a record of every relationship that
species can have between one another: Same species, Closely-Related
species and Different species. What other evidence is needed?
Should I shuffle off to the Evolution echo? :)
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: All
Sub: Video Violence
Date: 22 Jul 94 11:33:43
--------
EID:8ff3 1cf65c20
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 51ec745f
Last NEWSWEEK reports:
Video games make kids more violent.
Proof? A study in which children played a video game and were then
asked if it made them feel more aggressive.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Journalists suck.
--- PPoint 1.80
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From: Jeff Freeman
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Holocaust Denial
Date: 23 Jul 94 01:55:12
--------
EID:129f 1cf70ee0
MSGID: 1:124/1014.5121 a21c4f8d
On (20 Jul 94) David Bloomberg wrote to Tad Cook...
DB> Did you get my message on POLITICS about the latest issue of SKEPTIC,
DB> and its articles on Holocaust revisionists?
According to NEWSWEEK, this week, the initial poll asked Americans if
they believed the holocaust might never have happened, but with a
confusing syntax including a double negative. This 22% figure was
bandied about until the poll was repeated with straightforward wording
of the question. Actual result: 1%.
ONE percent?
I mean, you could ask ANYTHING and get better'n ONE percent. I think
that the whole "Holocaust Revisionists" phenom is a media-created THING.
Honestly, at one percent, there virtually *aren't* any.
They found ONE guy saying it (whom NO ONE believed, apparently) and made
a big show of it.
More evidence to add to the pile. I'll prove that journalists suck yet.
--- PPoint 1.80
* Origin: Jeff Freeman (1:124/1014.5121)
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--------
From: Dr Pepper
To: Mark Bellis
Sub: Dr Pepper Logo
Date: 22 Jul 94 14:23:00
--------
EID:3657 1cf672e0
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 658e515e
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47f
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
Um, better make that "Secret Statanic Meaning of the Dr Pepper Logo" to
keep i
t on topic.
> DP>My signature represents the old Dr Pepper logo, a redcircle with the
> numbers
> DP>arranged around the edge as on a clock.
> ^I should have guessed - but where's the 8 one would expect
> over
> here?
There never was one, just 10, 2 and 4.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Rod Speed
Sub: Statistics
Date: 22 Jul 94 14:36:00
--------
EID:c481 1cf67480
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 658e515f
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> VS> As a child, born in the first decade of this century, I played
> VS> 'Cowboys and Indians' with other boys pretending to shoot them
> VS> with a gun carved from wood. Television wasn't even a word then.
> VS> We probably got the idea from the books we read. It may have added
> VS> to what is innate.
> I think they mostly got it from movies, westerns. Corse not all
> kids had to have seen the movies, as long as some did.
Now explain why Mark Twain had Tom Sawyer, who lived before there were movies,
cajoling all his buddies into playing pirates and robbers, complete with
secr
et signs and horrific oaths?
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
---
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From: John Powell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Stuff
Date: 22 Jul 94 15:31:00
--------
EID:59a4 1cf67be0
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting David Bloomberg to John Powell <=-
JP> - Director Special Projects
DB> Oooooh, can I have it? ;-)
JP> Sure, if you really want it . Here's how it works: I pick a
JP> special project, more or less outline what/why/how, you do most but
not
JP> necessarily all of the grunt work delegating to volunteers as you can,
JP> you/me (and others) finalize a report. Something like 2 to 4 projects
JP> a year depending on how it goes.
DB> I would have to do GRUNT work?! With a "Director" title? Sheesh...
Only the grunt work that you couldn't delegate...
JP> I'm not interested in rehashing old stuff or in assembling FAQ-like
JP> material. I also want to mostly avoid UFO stuff whenever possible.
JP> (In case folks haven't figured it out yet the so-called UFO Phenomenon
is
JP> finished, over, done...)
DB> It is? Ok, I give up, what was the solution? :-)
If I tell you I'll have to kill you... Wait a sec, my shoephone just
rang... [Uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh, okay, yeah, okay, uh-huh, uh-huh, dweeb,
okay, uh-huh, sure, see ya.]
Here's the deal David. You've been given special dispensation. So, why
is the UFO Phenomenon finished?
Because:
- With current technology it is no longer to possible to use any
filmed, videotaped or photographic evidence to say anything
positive, only to occasionally prove a hoax.
- With current technology it is perfectly reasonable to expect
to see a completely manmade craft doing perfectly wild things.
- Eyewitness testimony alone is never even barely enough. And
there isn't even that much credible eyewitness testimony.
- Other physical trace evidence has proved mostly mundane,
sometimes hoaxed, sometimes inconclusive.
- The Abduction Phenomenon subset of UFology has run off the
deep end, slipped its mooring lines and disengaged itself from
the main UFO Phenomenon. When this happenned it signaled the
actual end of the UFO Phenomenon... (This happenned with the
combination of three things: 1) The overwhelming public
acceptance of Mack and his book; 2) The overwhelming _lack_ of
response from all the folks and groups that should have
stepped in but didn't; 3) The overwhelming _lack_ of public
response to those few folks/groups who did step in..)
- The population has _no_ leverage with the government or the
military. There is _no_ way to make them tell us something
that they don't want to tell us. (Unless we give up the UFO
angle, fix the democratic system, _then_ return to the UFO
angle and study the resulting documentation...)
JP> I won't tell you what the first project is but here's a hint: It
JP> happenned rather recently and has never been researched or
JP> investigated.
DB> Hmmmm. Well, I kind of have my hands full with REALL now. If all
DB> that grunt work weren't involved, I'd consider it, but... Ah well.
I knew it! You probably expected some cushy job with a cool title,
curvy secretaries fetching your coffee and doing your nails...
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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--------
From: John Powell
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: Stuff
Date: 22 Jul 94 15:33:00
--------
EID:59a4 1cf67c20
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting David Bloomberg to John Powell <=-
JP> Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network Journal
JP> "Odyssey Journal"
DB> Do you accept skeptical articles as well?
JP> Of course. No opinions, only actual work...
DB> What constitutes actual work? Would Kottmeyer's articles, for
DB> example, constitute actual work -- such as his comparisons between the
DB> "memories" of supposed abductees and the science fiction TV shows and
DB> movies they may very well have seen?
Yep, Kottmeyer's articles are mostly work especially lately. (Some of
his earlier stuff was too heavily punctuated with opinion which tended
to mask that fact that he'd done real work.)
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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From: David Macdonald
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Ayurvedic medicine
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:05:42
--------
EID:231f 1cf638a0
MSGID: 1:232/310 100b27d1
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: Conference
The fad for Ayurvedic medicine baffles me completely. Have I missed
something, or is India not one of the unhealthest, least sanitary, most
plague-ridden areas of the world? Somehow India sounds like a very unlikely
place to look to for medical miracles!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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From: David Macdonald
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES O
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:05:43
--------
EID:2bde 1cf638a0
MSGID: 1:232/310 10088777
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES O
Mea,
this is so typical of your posts! Years ago you read something. What?
You never tell us! Was it a reliable article in a scientific journal or
a
fluff piece in Omni? Have you read anything else? have you looked into
recent work on the subject? There are quite recent double-blind studies
on
subliminal messages that show quite clearly that they do not work. I can
send
a bibliography if you would like it. Please understand that we do not harbor
personal hostility, but this "I read an aricle somewhere once" tactic is,
well, at best irresponsible. Things are not that simple.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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From: David Macdonald
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: THE FLOOD
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:05:44
--------
EID:9c6f 1cf638a0
MSGID: 1:232/310 10093b86
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: THE FLOOD
Mea,
Your geography is a little mixed. Asia Minor is approximately modern
Turkey. If there was a local flood, it was much more likely in ancient
Mesopotamia, southern Iraq. There is some evidence fora localized flood
in
that area, but upon examination, it tends to evapoate. See my article "The
Flood Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence," Creation/Evolution, Issue XXIII
(Spring 1988), pp.14-20.
Why accept Gibbon but not Job? First, I would suggest you not accept
Gibbon. There are much more modern hsitories of the Roman Empire that are
more accurate; we have made progress in two centuries,though Gibbon remains
a
great literary masterpiece. Still, Gibbon was a hsitorian, attempting to
write history. The Bible is not history; it is a religious compilation
of
many different literary works written and edited over a long period of time
by many people. Job did not write Job; indeed, I know of no Biblical scholar
who considers that to be so. The same is true of other books named after
other Biblical figures; they tend to be subjects, not authors.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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From: David Macdonald
To: Ken Stuckas
Sub: Sneezing in sunlight
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:05:46
--------
EID:6b12 1cf638a0
MSGID: 1:232/310 1004cee4
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Sneezing in sunlight
You have your mather's nose? Doesn't she mind?
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
* Origin: Hermes (1:232/310)
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From: John Powell
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Dr Pepper Logo
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:28:00
--------
EID:287c 1cf70380
PID: QE 2.76a-
-=> Quoting Dr Pepper to Mark Bellis <=-
DP> Um, better make that "Secret Statanic Meaning of the Dr Pepper Logo"
DP> to keep it on topic.
> DP>My signature represents the old Dr Pepper logo, a redcircle with the
> DP>numbers arranged around the edge as on a clock.
> ^I should have guessed - but where's the 8 one would expect
> over here?
DP> There never was one, just 10, 2 and 4.
DP> 10 2
DP> DR PEPPER
DP> 4
Its subtle subliminal advertising. Visually the numbers were/are
arranged like those on a clock face and the original advertising was to
drink a Dr. Pepper at 10:00am, 2:00pm, and at 4:00pm.
Thanks, take care.
John.
-
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 OS/2 [NR]
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--------
From: Rick Moen
To: Mea Hewitt
Sub: Re: The flood
Date: 22 Jul 94 02:18:48
--------
EID:349c 1cf61240
MSGID: 1:125/27 f626f41b
MH>RM> Actually, no. This latter bit is not true. 19th C.
MH>RM> catastrophism did not entail divine intervention. It simply
MH>RM> assumed relatively (on geological/biological scales) sudden
MH>RM> development of life and . . . .
MH> Rick, this is a straight quote from Encyclopeadia Britannica. The
MH> set is about ten years old. I would suggest you look it up.
Mea, I believe you that your quotation from the _Brittanica_ is
more-or-less accurately reported to this echo, but so what? I certainly
will accept that some 19th C. scientists put a religious gloss
on their views of early Earth history. However, it simply is not
the case that catastrophism as a school of thought in 19th C. biology
and geology presupposed divine intervention. Skip the _Brittanica_
and go directly to the science texts of that period, and see for
yourself.
MH> I am not plumping for a world wide flood.
MH> I am saying that there was a flood over Asia Minor.
But there was _not_ a flood over Asia Minor. This TOO would involve an
absurdly large quantity of water, and, further, there is no evidence to
suggest that this occurred.
MH> Then I say that legends of flooding in other areas at around the
MH> same time are borne out by Cuvier in the Paris Basin,William
MH> Buckland after Darwin.and a whole heap of other geologists and
MH> paleontologists.
There is plenty of evidence of localised flooding -- hardly surprising,
since people tended to _live near rivers_. There is even evidence of
rains and tsunamis from the eruption of Thera (Santorini Island) causing
coastal disruption over a fairly broad area. However, flooding of
something as big as _Asia Minor_ -- no, ma'am.
MH> Most of the Old Testament is a History and many of these stories are
MH> being proved to be factual.
Yes, there is a considerable quantity of historical data to be found
in the Old Testament. However, the bit about flooding of entire
sub-continents (or more) is simply not supported by evidence, and is
absurd on its face.
MH>If I am able to accept Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
MH>(and he wasn't there at the time ) why not Job or Isaiah or Jeremiah,
MH>when they were there?
What a silly argument! Why not accept J.M. Barrie's "Peter Pan" as
factual? He wasn't there, either! ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Pete Porro
Sub: Re: Evolution
Date: 22 Jul 94 02:23:42
--------
EID:cc76 1cf612e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f626f51b
PP> [deletia] And of course the ultimate answer: God being and all
PP> knowing and seeing entity created evolution, because he knew nothing
PP> stagnant could make progress and continue with his plans. God knew
PP> that the ability to adjust and change was necessary for his creation
PP> to live on as planned. End of argument?
Pete, I've never had any problem with any of that. (It sounds like a
respectable and reasonable position.) I wasn't really making a comment
on religion at all, per se, just on the illogical assertion that belief
in God requires one to be a creationist.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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From: Eric Young
To: All
Sub: Re: NUMEROLOGY AND BIBLE
Date: 22 Jul 94 08:01:35
--------
EID:d7ec 1cf64020
The number was devised by Dr. Edward Kasner (d1955) accourding to the Guiness
Book of Records. I'm not sure if that's accurate but it's the only reference
I could find mentioning a "googol"
(a googolplex is 10 to the googol power.)
--- Aeolus v1.1 (#49820039)
* Origin: The Mac Daddy BBS (415) 587-9052 1stClass in SF (1:125/340)
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From: Mea Hewitt
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: ANTI-SEMITISM
Date: 20 Jul 94 17:19:46
--------
EID:8bd4 1cf48a60
Fanatics of any type frighten me. I remember being hounded by an
Atheist who tried to convert me . He took months to go away.
A fundo of a different kind I guess
JF> Speaking of the early Christian Fathers, though... can we compare and
JF> contrast Jesus Christ and David Koresh?
The early christian fathers were leaders for the first six , seven hundred
years.
JF> Ooh... off topic. You on HolySmoke? [do you even care to discuss
JF> this?]
I don't know whether my BBS has Holy Smoke.
Without going into a discussion on the historical Christ
Remember He replaced the Centurion's ear, lopped off by Peter
and told his followers to lay aside any weapons.
He did not have an armoury for protection.
mea
... Facts have this nasty habit of treading upon ideology...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Mia Cline
To: Mark Bellis
Sub: ghosts
Date: 23 Jul 94 13:03:24
--------
EID:eec5 1cf76860
MSGID: 1:201/20.0 2e31151c
REPLY: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7a0ef47d
MB> Errr...what University gives out Ph.Ds in Paraspsychology, and has she
MB> published in any other scholarly reviews besides OMNI?
i am not sure what University that she attended. i did not research her
life.
i do not know if she has had anything else published or not because this
was
several years ago that i was researching the subject of if ghosts exist
or no
t.
mia
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: Graffiti on the BBS Wall/2 * 317-448-2842 (1:201/20)
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Top 10 UFO Hoaxes
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:04:59
--------
EID:ca43 1cf74880
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 444106a9
Date: Mon Jul 18 1994 20:14:52
From: Nelson S. Pacheco
To: All
Subj: Top Ten UFO Hoaxes
P_SKEPTIC -------------------------------
It's time to present the award for the Top Ten UFO Hoaxes
of All Time. This is a difficult award to give, because the
competition is so fierce. Anyway, here are the winners:
10. George Adamski
Holy Blavatski! That UFO looks like an inverted street
light!
9. Snippy the Horse
Not a great case, but recognized as the father of the cattle
mutilation/ UFO connection. Accepting the award
posthumously on behalf of Snippy
and the Ananias Club will be Linda Howe...
8. Travis Walton
How about the best 2 out of 3 lie detector results?
7. Dulce, NM
Spanish for "sweet, like a sucker" as in "there's a sucker
born every minute..."
6. Hudson Valley
The "Blue Angels" of the ultralight world...
5. Guardian
Holy smoke!!!
4. Roswell
Say it ain't so, Marcel!
3. Gulf Breeze
Also winner of the "Ed Walters Special Effects Award"
2. MJ-16
(MJ12 + Shandera, Moore, Lazar, and Lear)
and the winner of the "check your brains at the door" award
for the top UFO hoax of all time is:
1. The Linda Napolitano case, also known as "Manhattan
Transfer," or "The hoax of the century."
Condolences to all the losers... but there's always the yearly
awards...
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Skeptics Manifesto, 1/5
Date: 23 Jul 94 11:07:14
--------
EID:c0c3 1cf758e0
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 444225b2
From _Skeptic_ vol. 1, no. 1, 1992, pp. 15-21.
The following article is copyright (c) 1992 by the Skeptics Society,
2761 N. Marengo Ave., Altadena, CA 91001, (818) 794-3119. Permission
has been granted for noncommercial electronic circulation of this
articles in its entirety, including this notice. For information about
a special Internet introductory subscription rate, see the file
subscription-rates or contact Jim Lippard (lippard@rtd.com).
A SKEPTICAL MANIFESTO
By Michael Shermer, Ph.D.
On the opening page of the splendid little book _To Know a Fly_, Vincent
Dethier makes this humorous observation of how children grow up to
become scientists: "Although small children have taboos against stepping
on ants because such actions are said to bring on rain, there has never
seemed to be a taboo against pulling off the legs or wings of flies.
Most children eventually outgrow this behavior. Those who do not either
come to a bad end or become biologists" (1962, p. 2). The same could be
said of skepticism. In their early years children are knowledge junkies,
questioning everything in their view, though exhibiting little
skepticism. Most never learn to distinguish between inquisitiveness and
credulity. Those who do either come to a bad end or become professional
skeptics.
James Randi is one of these. So too are the founders and fellows of
the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal (CSICOP), the predecessor to the _Skeptics Society_ whose
journal - the _Skeptical Inquirer_ - has set the standard toward which
this and other such publications must strive in the pursuit of
skepticism. But what does it mean to be skeptical? The word is a
troublesome one because of the heavy baggage it carries. The word has
different meanings for different people. (We had considered many names
but decided that as long as it is defined the word is a useful one.
Within the name we had also considered _Institute for Rational
Skepticism_, but rejected it for fear that we might become known as the
IRS, an organization about which many people are already skeptical!)
The Meaning and Limits of Skepticism
Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greek
thought. The foremost historian of skepticism, Richard Popkin, tells us:
"Academic scepticism, so-called because it was formulated in the
Platonic Academy in the third century, B.C., developed from the Socratic
observation, 'All I know is that I know nothing'"(1979, p. xiii). Two of
the popular received meanings of the word by many people today are that
a skeptic believes nothing, or is closed minded to certain beliefs.
There is good reason for the perception of the first meaning. The
_Oxford English Dictionary (OED)_ gives this common usage for the word
skeptic: "One who, like Pyrrho and his followers in Greek antiquity,
doubts the possibility of real knowledge of any kind; one who holds that
there are no adequate grounds for certainty as to the truth of any
proposition whatever" (1971, Vol. 2, p. 2663).
Since this position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually
no one (except a few confused solipsists who doubt even their own
existence), it is no wonder that so many find skepticism disturbing. A
more productive meaning of the word skeptic is the second usage given by
the _OED_: "One who doubts the validity of what claims to be knowledge in
some particular department of inquiry; one who maintains a doubting
attitude with reference to some particular question or statement."
The history of the word skeptic and skepticism is interesting and
often amusing. In 1672, for example, the _Philosophical Transactions_
VII records this passage: "Here he taketh occasion to examine
Pyrrhonisme or Scepticisme, professed by a Sect of men that speak
otherwise than they think." The charge is true. The most ardent skeptics
enjoy their skepticism as long as it does not encroach upon their most
cherished beliefs. Then incredulity flies out the window. I received a
call recently from a gentleman who professed to be a skeptic, wanted to
support the organization, and agrees with our skepticism about
everything except the power of vitamins to restore health and attenuate
disease. He hoped I would not be organizing any skeptical lectures or
articles on this field, which, he explained, has now been proven
scientifically to be effective. "Your field wouldn't be vitamin therapy
would it?" I inquired. "You bet it is!" he responded.
It is easy, even fun to challenge others' beliefs, when we are smug
in our certainty about our own. But when ours are challenged, it takes
great patience and ego strength to listen with an unjaundiced ear. But
there is a deeper flaw in pure skepticism. Taken to an extreme the
position by itself cannot stand. The _OED_ gives us this 1674 literary
example (Tucker _Lt. Nat._ II): "There is an air of positiveness in all
scepticism, an unreserved confidence in the strength of those arguments
that are alleged to overthrow all the knowledge of mankind." Skepticism
is itself a positive assertion about knowledge, and thus turned on
itself cannot be held. If you are skeptical about everything, you would
have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying sub-
atomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing
screen of our intellectual cloud chamber.
Skepticism alone does not produce progress. It is not enough simply
to reject the irrational. Skepticism must be followed with something
rational, or something that does produce progress. As the Austrian
economist Ludwig von Mises warned against those anti-communists who
presented no rational alternative to the system of which they were so
skeptical (1956, p. 112):
An anti-something movement displays a purely negative attitude. It
has no chance whatever to succeed. Its passionate diatribes
virtually advertise the program they attack. People must fight for
something that they want to achieve, not simply reject an evil,
however bad it may be.
cont...
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: 2/5
Date: 23 Jul 94 11:08:06
--------
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cont...
Carl Sagan sounded a similar warning to the professional skeptics at
the 1987 CSICOP annual meeting: "You can get into a habit of thought in
which you enjoy making fun of all those other people who don't see
things as clearly as you do. We have to guard carefully against it" (in
Basil, 1988, p. 366).
The Rational Skeptic
The second popular notion that skeptics are closed-minded to certain
beliefs comes from a misunderstanding of skepticism and science.
Skeptics and scientists are not necessarily "closed-minded" (though they
may be since they are human). They may have been open-minded to a belief
but when the evidence failed to support the belief, they rejected it.
There are already enough legitimate mysteries in the universe for which
evidence provides scientists fodder for their research, that to take the
time to consider "unseen" or "unknown" mysteries is not always
practical. When the non-skeptic says, "you're just closed-minded to the
unknown forces of the universe," the skeptic responds: "We're still
trying to understand the known forces of the universe."
It is for these reasons that it might be useful to modify the word
skeptic with "rational." Again, it is constructive to examine the usage
and history of this word that is so commonly used. Rational is given as:
"Having the faculty of reasoning; endowed with reason" (_OED_, p. 2420).
And reason as "A statement of some fact employed as an argument to
justify or condemn some act, prove or disprove some assertion, idea, or
belief" (p. 2431). It may seem rather pedantic to dig through the
dictionary and pull out arcane word usages and histories. But it is
constructive to know how a word was intended to be used and what it has
come to mean. They are often not the same, and more often than not, they
have multiple usages such that when two people communicate they are
frequently talking at cross purposes. One person's skepticism may be
another's credulity. And who does not think they are rational when it
comes to their own beliefs and ideologies?
It is also important to remember that dictionaries do not give
definitions. They give usages. For a listener to understand a speaker,
and for a reader to follow a writer, important words must be defined
with semantic precision for communication to be successful. What I mean
by skeptic is the second usage above: "One who doubts the validity of
what claims to be knowledge in some particular department of inquiry."
And by rational: "A statement of some fact employed as an argument to
justify or condemn some act, prove or disprove some assertion, idea, or
belief." But these usages leave out one important component: the goal of
reason and rationality. The ultimate end to thinking is to understand
cause-and-effect relationships in the world around us. It is to know the
universe, the world, and ourselves. Since rationality is the most
reliable means of thinking, a rational skeptic may be defined as:
_One who questions the validity of particular claims of knowledge
by employing or calling for statements of fact to prove or
disprove claims, as a tool for understanding causality._
But what method shall we employ? Just being skeptical will lead us to
no conclusion other than the Socratic conclusion that we do not know.
The answer, in a word, is science, and the method, in two words, is the
scientific method.
Science and the Rational Skeptic
Needless to say, reviewing the usages and history of the word science
would be inappropriately long here, and I have already done this to a
certain extent in the essay at the end of this issue. For purposes of
clarity science will be taken to mean: _a set of cognitive and
behavioral methods designed to describe and interpret observed or
inferred phenomenon, past or present, aimed at building a testable body
of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation._
Science is a specific way of thinking and acting - a tool for
understanding information that is perceived directly or indirectly
("observed or inferred"). "Past or present" refers to both the
historical and the experimental sciences. Cognitive methods include
hunches, guesses, ideas, hypotheses, theories, paradigms, etc.;
behavioral methods include background research, data collection, data
organization, colleague collaboration and communication, experiments,
correlation of findings, statistical analyses, manuscript preparation,
conference presentations, publications, etc. This definition is
discussed in greater detail in the later essay. More controversial, and
less likely to find agreement among practitioners, is a definition of
the scientific method. In fact, one of the more insightful and amusing
observations on this problem was made by the Nobel laureate and
philosopher of science, Sir Peter Medawar (1969, p. 11):
Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and
he will adopt an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-
eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion;
shifty-eyed, because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that
he has no opinion to declare.
cont...
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: 3/5
Date: 23 Jul 94 11:08:44
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cont...
A sizable body of literature exists on the scientific method and
there is little consensus among the authors. This does not mean that
scientists do not know what they are doing. Doing and explaining may be
two different things. For the purpose of outlining a methodology for the
rational skeptic to apply to questionable claims, the following four
step process may represent, on the simplest of levels, something that
might be called the "scientific method":
1. _Observation_: Gathering data through the senses or sensory enhancing
technologies.
2. _Induction_: Drawing general conclusions from the data. Forming
hypothesis.
3. _Deduction_: Making specific predictions from the general
conclusions.
4. _Verification_: Checking the predictions against further
observations.
Science, of course, is not this rigid; and no scientist consciously
goes through such "steps." The process is a constantly interactive one
between making observations, drawing conclusions, making predictions,
and checking them against further evidence. This process constitutes the
core of what philosophers of science call the _hypothetico-deductive_
method, which involves "(a) putting forward a hypothesis, (b) conjoining
it with a statement of 'initial conditions', (c) deducing from the two a
prediction, and (d) finding whether or not the prediction is fulfilled"
(Bynum, Browne, Porter, 1981, p. 196).
Observations are what flesh out the hypothetico-deductive process and
serve as the final arbiter for the validity of the predictions. As Sir
Arthur Stanley Eddington noted: "For the truth of the conclusions of
science, observation is the supreme court of appeal" (1958, p. 9).
Through the scientific method we form the following generalizations:
_Hypothesis_: A testable statement to account for a set of observations.
_Theory_: A well-supported testable statement to account for a set of
observations.
_Fact_: Data or conclusions confirmed to such an extent it would be
reasonable to offer temporary agreement. (Adopted from Gould, 1983, p.
255.)
These may be opposed to a _construct_, or a non-testable statement to
account for a set of observations. The observation of living organisms
on Earth may be accounted for by God or by evolution. The first
statement is a construct, the second a theory. Most biologists would
even call evolution a fact by the above definition.
Through the scientific method we aim for:
_Objectivity_: The basing of conclusions on external validation.
We avoid:
_Mysticism_: The basing of conclusions on personal insights that lack
external validation.
There is nothing wrong with personal insight. Many great scientists
attributed important ideas to insight, intuition, and other equally
difficult-to-define concepts. Alfred Wallace said that the idea of
natural selection "suddenly flashed upon" him during an attack of
malaria. Timothy Ferris called Einstein, "the great intuitive artist of
science." But insightful and intuitive ideas do not gain acceptance
until they are externally validated. As Richard Hardison explained
(1988, p. 259-260):
Mystical "truths," by their nature, must be solely personal, and
they can have no possible external validation. Each has equal
claim to truth. Tea leaf reading and astrology and Buddhism; each
is equally sound or unsound if we judge by the absence of related
evidence. This is not intended to disparage any one of the faiths;
merely to note the impossibility of verifying their correctness.
The mystic is in a paradoxical position. When he seeks external
support for his views he must turn to external arguments, and he
denies mysticism in the process. External validation is, by
definition, impossible for the mystic.
Science leads us toward:
_Rationalism_: The basing of conclusions on the scientific method. For
example, how do you know the Earth is round?
1. The shadow on the moon is round.
2. The mast of a ship is the last thing seen.
3. The horizon is curved.
4. Photographs from space.
Science helps us avoid:
_Dogmatism_: The basing of conclusions on authority rather than science.
For example, how do you know the Earth is round?
1. My parents told me.
2. My teachers told me.
3. My minister told me.
4. My textbook told me.
Dogmatic conclusions are not necessarily invalid but they do pose
another question: How did the authorities come by their conclusions? Did
they use science or some other means?
cont...
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: 4/5
Date: 23 Jul 94 11:09:22
--------
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MSGID: 1:2430/2112 444229fe
cont...
The Essential Tension Between Skepticism and Credulity
It is important too that we recognize the fallibility of science and the
scientific method. But within this fallibility lies its greatest
strength: self-correction. Whether mistakes are made honestly or
dishonestly, whether a fraud is unknowingly or knowingly perpetrated, in
time it will be flushed out of the system through the lack of external
verification. The cold fusion fiasco is a classic example of the
system's swift consequences for error and hasty publication.
Because of the importance of this self-correcting feature, there is
in the profession what Richard Feynman calls "a principle of scientific
thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty - a kind of leaning
over backwards." Feynman says: "If you're doing an experiment, you
should report everything that you think might make it invalid - not only
what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly
explain your results" (1988, p. 247).
Despite these built in mechanisms science is still subject to a
number of problems and fallacies that even the most careful scientist
and rational skeptic are aware can be troublesome. We can, however, find
inspiration in those who have overcome them to make monumental
contributions to our understanding of the world and ourselves. Charles
Darwin is a sterling example of a scientist who struck the right balance
in what Thomas Kuhn calls the "essential tension" in science between
total acceptance of and devotion to the status quo, and an open
willingness to explore and accept new ideas (1962, 1977). This delicate
balance forms the basis of the whole concept of paradigm shifts in the
history of science. When enough of the scientific community
(particularly those in positions of power) are willing to abandon the
old orthodoxy in favor of the (formerly) radical new theory, then, and
only then can the paradigm shift occur.
This generalization about change in science is usually made about the
paradigm as a system, but we must recognize that the paradigm is a
cognitive framework in the minds of individuals. Darwinian scholar Frank
Sulloway identifies three characteristics of Darwin's intellect and
personality that mark him as one of the handful of giants in the history
of science who found the right balance (1991, p. 28): "First, although
Darwin indeed had unusual reverence for the opinions of others, he was
obviously quite capable of challenging authority and thinking for
himself." Second, "Darwin was also unusual as a scientist in his extreme
respect for, and attention to, negative evidence." Darwin included, for
example, a chapter on "Difficulties on Theory" in the _Origin of
Species_; as a result his objectors were rarely able to present him with
a challenge that he had not already confronted or addressed. And third
was Darwin's "ability to tap the collective resources of the scientific
community and to enlist other scientists as fellow collaborators in his
own research projects." Darwin's collected correspondence numbers
greater than 16,000 extant letters, most of which involve lengthy
discussions and question-and-answer sequences about scientific problems.
He was constantly questioning, always learning, confident enough to
formulate original ideas, yet modest enough to recognize his own
fallibility.
A fourth that might be mentioned is that Darwin maintained a good
dollop of modesty and cautiousness that Sulloway sees as "a valuable
attribute" that helps "prevent an overestimation of one's own theories."
There is much to be learned in this regard from Darwin's
_Autobiography_. Darwin confesses that he has "no great quickness of
apprehension or wit which is so remarkable in some clever men," a lack
of which makes him "a poor critic: a paper or book, when first read,
generally excites my admiration, and it is only after considerable
reflection that I perceive the weak points." Unfortunately many of
Darwin's critics have selectively quoted such passages against him, not
seeing the advantage Darwin saw in the patient avoidance of regrettable
mistakes made in haste (1892, p. 55):
I think that I have become a little more skillful in guessing
right explanations and in devising experimental tests; but this
may probably be the result of mere practice, and of a larger store
of knowledge. I have as much difficulty as ever in expressing
myself clearly and concisely; and this difficulty has caused me a
very great loss of time; but it has had the compensating advantage
of forcing me to think long and intently about every sentence, and
thus I have been often led to see errors in reasoning and in my
own observations or those of others.
His is a lesson in science and in life well worth learning. What
Sulloway sees as particularly special about Darwin was his ability to
resolve the essential tension within himself. "Usually, it is the
scientific community as a whole that displays this essential tension
between tradition and change," Sulloway observes, "since most people
have a preference for one or the other way of thinking. What is
relatively rare in the history of science is to find these contradictory
qualities combined in such a successful manner in one individual" (p. 32).
Carl Sagan summed up the essential tension between skepticism and
credulity in his CSICOP lecture on "The Burden of Skepticism":
It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance
between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all
hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great
openness to new ideas. If you are only skeptical, then no new
ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You
become a crochety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the
world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.)
On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility
and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot
distingush the useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas
have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to
me, no ideas have any validity at all" (in Basil, 1988, p. 366).
There is some hope that rational skepticism, and the vigorous
application of the scientific method, can help us navigate through the
treacherous straights between pure skepticism and unmitigated credulity.
cont...
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From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: 5/5
Date: 23 Jul 94 11:09:56
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cont...
The Tool of the Mind
Science is the best method humankind has devised for understanding
causality. Therefore the scientific method is our most effective tool
for understanding the causes of the effects we are confronted with in
our personal lives as well as in nature. There are few human traits that
most observers would call truly universal. Most would consent, however,
that survival of the species as a whole, and the achivement of greater
happiness of individuals in particular, are universals that virtually
every human being seeks. We have seen the interrelationship between
science, rationality, and rational skepticism. Thus, we may go so far as
to say that the survival of the human species and the attainment of
greater happiness for individuals depend on the ability to think
scientifically, rationally, and skeptically.
It is assumed that human beings are born with the ability to
perceive cause-and-effect relationships. When we are born we have no
cultural experience whatsoever. But we do not come into the world
completely ignorant. We know lots of things - how to see, hear, digest
food, track a moving object in the visual field, blink at approaching
objects, become anxious when placed over a ledge, develop a taste
aversion for noxious foods, and so on. We also inherit the traits our
ancestors evolved in a world filled with predators and natural
disasters, poisons and dangers, and risks from all sides. We are
descended from the most successful ancestors at understanding causality.
Our brains are natural machines for piecing together events that may
be related and for solving problems that require our attention. One can
envision an ancient hominid from Africa chipping and grinding and
shaping a rock into a sharp tool for carving up a large mammalian
carcass. Or perhaps we can imagine the first individual who discovered
that knocking flint would create a spark with which to start a fire. The
wheel, the lever, the bow and arrow, the plow - inventions intended to
allow us to shape our environment rather than be shaped by it - started
civilization down a path that led to our modern scientific and
technological world.
In his discussion of the rewards of science, Vincent Dethier, whose
words opened this manifesto, runs through the pantheon of the obvious
ones - monetary, security, honor - as well as the transcendent: "a
passport to the world, a feeling of belonging to one race, a feeling
that transcends political boundaries and ideologies, religions, and
languages." But he brushes these aside for one "more lofty and more
subtle." This is the natural curiosity of humans in their drive to
understand the world:
One of the characteristics that sets man apart from all the other
animals (and animal he undubitably is) is a need for knowledge for
its own sake. Many animals are curious, but in them curiosity is a
facet of adaptation. Man has a hunger to know. And to many a man,
being endowed with the capacity to know, he has a duty to know.
All knowledge, however small, however irrelevant to progress and
well-being, is a part of the whole. It is of this the scientist
partakes. To know the fly is to share a bit in the sublimity of
Knowledge. That is the challenge and the joy of science (pp. 118-119).
Children are naturally are curious, inquisitive, and exploratory of
their environment. It is normal to want to know how things work and why
the world is the way it is. At its most basic level, this is what
science is all about. As Richard Feynman observed: "I've been caught, so
to speak - like someone who was given something wonderful when he was a
child, and he's always looking for it again. I'm always looking, like a
child, for the wonders I know I'm going to find - maybe not every time,
but every once in a while" (1988, p. 16). The most important question in
education is this: what tools are children given to understand the
world?
On the most basic of levels we must think or die. Those who are alive
are thinking and using reason to a greater or lesser extent. Those who
use more reason, those who employ rational skepticism, will attain
greater satisfaction because they understand the cause of their
satisfaction. It cannot be otherwise. As Ayn Rand concluded in her
magnum opus _Atlas Shrugged_ (1957, p. 1012):
Man cannot survive except by gaining knowledge, and reason is his
only means to gain it . . . . Man's mind is his basic tool of
survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given
to him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its
content is not. To remain alive, he must act, and before he can
act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot
obtain his food without a knowledge of food and of the way to
obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch - or build a cyclotron - without
a knowledge of his aim and of the means to achieve it. To remain
alive, he must think.
Over three centuries ago the French philosopher and skeptic RenŽ
Descartes, after one of the most thorough skeptical purges in
intellectual history, concluded that he knew one thing for certain:
"Cogito ergo sum." "I think therefore I am."
By a similar analysis, to be human is to think. Therefore, to
paraphrase Descartes:
_"Sum Ergo Cogito."
"I Am Therefore I Think."_
Bibliography
Basil, R. 1988. _Not Necessarily the New Age_. Buffalo: Prometheus
Books.
Bynum, W.F., E.J. Browne, R. Porter. _Dictionary of the History of
Science_. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Darwin, C. 1892. _The Autobiography of Charles Darwin_. Francis Darwin
(Ed.). New York: Dover.
Dethier, V.G. 1962. _To Know a Fly_. San Francisco: Holden-Day.
Eddington, A. S. 1958. _The Philosophy of Physical Science_. Ann Arbor:
University of Michigan Press.
Feynman, R.P. 1988. _What Do You Care What Other People Think?_ New
York: W.W.Norton.
Gould, S. J. 1983. _Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes_. New York: W.W.
Norton.
Hardison, R.C. 1988. _Upon the Shoulders of Giants_. New York:
University Press of America.
Kuhn, T. S. 1962. _The Structure of Scientific Revolutions_. Chicago:
University of Chicago Press.
_____ . 1977. _The Essential Tension: Selected Studies in Scientific
Tradition and Change_. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Medawar, P. 1969. _Induction and Intuition in Scientific Thought_.
London.
Mises, L.V. 1956. _The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality_. New York: D. Van
Nostrand.
_Oxford English Dictionary_. 1971. Oxford.
Popkin, R. H. 1979. _The History of Scepticism from Erasmus to Spinoza_.
Berkeley: University of California Press.
Rand, A. 1957. _Atlas Shrugged_. New York: Random House.
Sulloway, F. J. 1991. "Darwinian Psychobiography." A review of Charles
Darwin: A new Life by John Bowlby. _The New York Review of Books_,
October 10.
Michael Shermer is Director of the _Skeptics Society_ and Assistant
Professor of History of Science at the Institute for Human Progress. He
taught psychology and the history of science for 11 years at Glendale
College, and occasionally teaches the history of science and culture at
Occidental College. He has published _Teach Your Child Science_ and co-
authored _Teach Your Child Math_ and _Mathemagics_ with Dr. Arthur
Benjamin. Dr. Shermer has just finished two books, _Heretic-Scientist_,
a biography of Alfred Russell Wallace, and _The Chaos of History_, on
the application of chaos theory to human history. He has also written
numerous cycling books based on a ten year professional career as a
ultra-marathon cyclist and competitor in the transcontinental _Race
Across America_.
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From: Shelby Sherman
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 23 Jul 94 15:16:48
--------
EID:a116 1cf77a00
MSGID: 1:123/67 2e3134ae
REPLY: 3:800/857 2e30279c
PID: GED/2 G0615 73LM2
22 Jul 94 20:08, Jackson Harding wrote to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Could you give an explanation of this phenomenon? I am
SS>> skeptical that these are anything more than the mind just
SS>> playing tricks.
JH> They are remarkably consistant and several neurophysiologists,
JH> including one called Susan Blakemore, have put forward the theory
JH> that they are a result of false perceptions due to ischaemia,
JH> hypoperfusion and high endorphin levels in the brain near death.
JH> Not so much playing tricks as trying to make sense of what to the
JH> brain is very very strange information.
JH> (David Bloomberg has posted a summary of this recently)
Thanks. This has come up in my local religious debate echo as "proof"
of life after death.
Does anyone have a faq for freq. on this subject? David?
--- GoatEd Ver. 0.00
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From: J. Moore
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Evolution
Date: 22 Jul 94 11:23:11
--------
EID:80d8 1cf65ae0
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7b90d223
RM> You probably already know the answer, really: Conceptually, a species
RM> is all the animals that in theory could breed with one another and
RM> produce _fertile_ offspring. I've never heard of a fertile mule, but
RM> they must be so rare that there's about zero chance of a new species
RM> being perpetuated by breeding of the few exceptions, if any.
RM> Cheers,
RM> Rick M.
But of course there ARE animals recognized as different species which
can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Generally female hybrids
of these crosses are more likely to be fertile than males. Various
dogs, wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, etc.) are examples; also the
bison-cattle crosses, which are noteworthy because they are actually
classified as different genuses! (The Canadian government did a lot of
work with bison-cattle crosses some years ago in northern Alberta.)
* Q-Blue 1.0
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From: Mark Bellis
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Basis
Date: 22 Jul 94 12:25:11
--------
EID:6921 1cf66320
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 7b90d224
RM>MB> Also, what do the little numbers by the Dr Pepper sign mean? I have
RM>MB> always wondered.
RM>We could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you. ;->
RM>Cheers,
RM>Rick Moen
You'll have to catch me first!! Speaking of soft drinks, what's the most
repulsive in the Bay area?
There are very few small label pop manufacturers in Canada - Coke/Pepsi
locks'em out -
JOLT cola was made in Calgary before being forced south.
Most supermarkets carry run-of-the mill house brands made by Cott's -
but Dave Nichols, a food marketing whiz, introduced a truly horrific
black cherry/chocolate cola that could kill sheep. It was featured on
Sixty Minutes - I recommened the diet variety for that added
burnt vinyl aspartamine tang.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
* Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
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--------
From: Mea Hewitt
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: ANTI-SEMITISM
Date: 21 Jul 94 18:25:58
--------
EID:8bd4 1cf59320
Fanatics of any type frighten me. I remember being hounded by an
Atheist who tried to convert me . He took months to go away.
A fundo of a different kind I guess
JF> Speaking of the early Christian Fathers, though... can we compare and
JF> contrast Jesus Christ and David Koresh?
The early christian fathers were leaders for the first six , seven hundred
years.
JF> Ooh... off topic. You on HolySmoke? [do you even care to discuss
JF> this?]
I don't know whether my BBS has Holy Smoke.
Without going into a discussion on the historical Christ
Remember He replaced the Centurion's ear, lopped off by Peter
and told his followers to lay aside any weapons.
He did not have an armoury for protection.
mea
... Facts have this nasty habit of treading upon ideology...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 43 CDRoms & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: John Powell
Sub: Stuff
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:19:00
--------
EID:694d 1cf60a60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bace
PID: FM 2.02
> JP> The Odyssey Fringe Science Research Network Journal,
> JP> "Odyssey Journal", 'OJ', is the official publication of the
> DB> You might want to change the abbreviation now. ;-)
> Dang!! I forgot about that... Now I have to make up an
> entirely new
> acronym... That _really_ ticks me off...
Knock Knock.
"Who's there?"
OJ
"OJ who?"
Great, you can serve on the Jury!
:)
Don
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Why is Mike Tyson so happy? Cuz he gets OJ for breakfast (1:3623/18
)
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From: Don Allen
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Subliminal Messages
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:23:02
--------
EID:b00e 1cf60ae0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bacf
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 04067db6
PID: FM 2.02
> On (15 Jul 94) Adrian Eng wrote to J. Moore...
> AE> JM> I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy]
> AE> Thank you =) What's the word in the square brackets for???
> Hold your monitor up to a mirror.
Should I tell him? Nah..it will spoil it. Heck, I didn't even need a steenking
mirror. :)
Don
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: I found a happy TrueFoamingBeliever, so I annoyed them. (1:3623/18)
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Rules-Please Read!
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:28:02
--------
EID:f74f 1cf60b80
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad1
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to Tim Davis
* Originally dated 16 Jul 1994, 14:49
> MO> o possible technologies used by UFO's and IFO's.
> Could this be broken down a little, like propulsion, time travel,
> harmonics. Reason I say this is that on another echo I've seen
> Warren York get slammed for some of his highly intelligent
> conversation, for seeming to be too far off in left field in
> physics, yet from personnaly talking to hime L/D over the phone, I
> could see the big picture of what he was slowly getting at(or at
> least getting a rough picture).
Well, I am not familiar with the many ideas floating around out there
about the tech used by UFO's and IFO's, so I left the description in a
generalized form.
Maybe Warren York will join us here.
MO> NO Asking for proof of any participant's statements.
> Unless they mean material that could benefit the UFOlogist correct?
Not really. This rule means that no one is obliged to provide proof
of their statements, and no one should DEMAND proof. This way we can
freely exchange ideas without folks being harassed to back up their
statements.
> Hello Glenda, so-far I'm enjoying I_UFO, I feel like I stepped out
> of the subway and into someone's living room(grin). And other then
> the two little fine lines in the rules I wanted to speculate about,
> I like them and the fact that it's more/is exceptable to express
> one's self in regards to the topic. Catch ya later..
Good. Thanks.
Time to go!
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:29:04
--------
EID:d195 1cf60ba0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad2
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Sandy Doonan
* Originally dated 16 Jul 1994, 12:25
>>>>> Hmmm....time will tell won't it?
> wb> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real
> wb> count down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
> You have your date off by a year. 1998 is when Henry Kissinger will
> make his historic announcements to the world, backed up by the
> military might of the United Nations. The steps required to barcode
> everyone in the world are already in place and _that_ will be
> completed by the end of 1997. There won't be any turning back. But
> the agreement of world domination won't be announced until 1998.
(WB) Hi Sandy: That date represents something else. We could care less about
t
he one world order it isn't going to happen, atleast the way they have it
figu
red. The Date represented the farthest pissible date to the end of this
planet
in this dimensional frequency. In other words we will by then be in 5th
densi
ty. That's changing as I type your reply.
> On December 31'st, 1994, the government will have to release the
> bodies of the greys on ice in Hanger 18. There is some speculation
> that the interstellar neutrino flux they are currently being shielded
> from will revive them and that they will Network and stop the
> intended take-over by the United Nations under the auspice of Henry
> Kissinger. The government isn't going to let them revive if they can
> stop it but really they have no choice. They loose the lease on the
> land and, unless they want a lot of publicity, they are going to have
> to either nuke the place to destroy all evidence (claiming an
> 'accident' at Mercury Test Site, perhaps) or come out with the facts.
> And I don't think our government will kill everyone in Las Vegas
> simply to keep a lid on the aliens they have kidnapped for so many
> years.
(WB) Everything they are doing is HYPE! Meaning it's basis is hot air and
a bl
uff the sheep follow. But you and I and others more aware can create anything
we want and just by thinking it have it occur. You only need know you can
do t
his "Grin:.
regards Walter.
> ---
> * Origin: The government is a liar. Free the aliens! (1:102/890.7)
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:30:04
--------
EID:d195 1cf60bc0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad3
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Clark Hathaway
* Originally dated 15 Jul 1994, 15:04
> On 07-06-94, WALTER BARTOO wrote to CLARK HATHAWAY:
> WB> (WB) The Moon video confirmed All of Sitchens Books. That means
> WB> everything now is back to day one.
> Okay. I will be going to Arizona for two weeks starting the last week
> in July. As I will be in Phoenix during the first week of August with
a
> bit of free time on my hands, I am going to attempt to take Glenda's
> suggestion and get to some used book stores to see if I can pick up a
> copy or two of any of his books. The video will have to wait.
(WB) Hi Clark: It appears it's now later than most think. Catch the Ashtar
cha
nnelings in the Snet Channels area. These came in direct from Australia.
Seems
the Jupiter thing is going to change alot of things and it aught to prove
int
eresting on many levels.
> WB> Micro Wave, Pulse and laser technology is beyond understanding of
> WB> the public.
> Granted and is all mechanical as well as electronic.
>
(WB) Ya and then some grin. The satelites are also mentioned in these channeli
ngs.
> Hmmm...I wonder if I could be retro_fitted?
(WB) Few yet understand that we are being selected as to earlier seed programs
that are not interbride into oblivion. These selected ones are being taken
as
donors to the new man and woman that will walk this planet after the cleansin
g through selective breeding to the next quantum genectic leap forward.
The mi
ssing link is now being called the quantum leap.
> WB> (WB) Once we get a hold on our fears then we can operate in a group
> WB> aspect.
> Fear, the great immobilizer. It is only through lack of control that
> one comes into fear in my experience Walter. Acceptance is the key.
(WB) Yes this is true, what we accept and allow is the key. Everything
else coming will transform us quite naturally with little effort on our
part.
So why worry about it, I don't.
> Okay. How do I go about getting 'what I need'.
(WB) You know I forgot why I said this as it has been so long in getting
a rep
ly. I guess as you are now getting into netmail Glenda and you can converse
on
this. I make sure she gets what she needs. I've not taken that look at you
my
friend, so I cannot speculate your needs. The few I have also are helping
oth
ers. It's the way it works.
> WB> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real count
> WB> down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
> Why is it that I've got this very strong feeling that it is going to
> get Real Nasty...long before then ? Damage_control is a fallacious
> concept. At least in this regard.
(WB) Some may see it that way. Granted change now is being accellerated
and re
sistence is also acute against it. But those welcoming it and wanting it,
will
have a good experience. I do not read any Dooms day scenario into what i'm
go
ing to experience. Actually everything now is bringing more joy into my
life,
the other aspect was extremely boring and of little worth. Any change creating
higher reality versus the illusion accepted as life has my support. You
know
few are aware they can write their own script as to what they want and can
exp
erience?
> WB> Come on Clark this is no game and if we are to excell as in
> WB> referrence to what we are, we had better shore up the loose ends
and
> WB> realise we cannot be an island in a group effort badly needing it's
> WB> other dedicated parts. If you don't understand that statement we
are
> WB> waisting out time with you.
(WB) Glenda felt you might take the last sentence here as a malicious statemen
t. It was not intended that way at all. What I meant here was we can settle
in
as a group and create a group type change. We don't have to accept anything
w
e do not want. Free will is on the rise not declining as the control would
hav
e you believe. That side to things is a bluff many are falling for. The
way to
get beyond this is to realise they are loosing there hold and by doing so
are
playing hard ball to make people believe they are loosing their freedoms.
The
opposite is true.
> Message copied Walter. Understood and agreed.
> It is also understood that in this media, one can be specific only up
> to a point. I am working on netmail capability and the recent mail to
> Glenda is no indication that I have it sorted out. I don't. However, we
be workin' on it.
(WB) All the more reason to allow a greater dialog to exist in sharing what
ha
s been greatly surpressed in the past. The correct info is coming in but
being
overlooked by those discrediting it and refusing to pass it on to others
or a
llow it be discussed in their conferences. For the most part these folks
have
not had any direct contact and are still wanna bees acting like authority
figu
res, which they are not or ever will be.
After the Jupiter collisions I see a different aspect of thinking coming
up in
not passing things by in certain areas as in the past. A shift of focus
and d
irection for many is what I see. Creditability of some will be undermined
as m
ore see they were being led down a dead end alley. Alot of low consciousness
g
ames will be exposed that people got caught up in will change. To me everythin
g is busting apart and when things come back together folks will see more
in a
different way. This will purge alot of unnecessary fear. regards Walter.
> Regards, Clark
> * Origin: QST - Sacramento's Premier Ham BBS (916) 920-1288 (1:203/
> 730)
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Jupiter News 1/1
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:36:06
--------
EID:fcba 1cf60c80
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad4
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 16 Jul 1994, 13:03
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 1 of 1]
26/5 /1994
ASHTAR COMMAND - NEWS FLASH
CHANNELLED BY - DANA SUMMER
The release of the energetic activation to support the Earth plus
The Jupiter activation.
The I am presence is assisting in the process of releasing for all
those on Earth. The activation of energetic support system to Earth
(people animals etc.). This is done via the GROUNDING ROD.
The feminine is fully aligning into all eleven chakras except for
the base chakra which is focused towards full masculine FOCUS. The
meridians are coming into play as well, as all are blending and
beginning to vibrate as ONE TONE and emanating THROUGHOUT the AURA
around the body. This ALLOWS OUR SHIPS TO IDENTIFY AND CONNECT WITH
YOU(at this point our ships for the first time will have 100%
ENERGETIC, ETHERIC, AND PHYSICAL focus on you).
This radical alignment is the climax to the creators (I AM
OMNI-PRESENCE) preparation for its departure. For example, as it
assesses this quadrant in transmuting duality then transmuting and
preparing us for ASCENSION. On doing so, leaving aspects of itself,
and a higher understanding of learning of itself. This is reflected
in us all and we will all be experiencing extreme separation. Plus
the larger picture, this includes the opening of the new 13th sector
GATEWAY, being the new universe coming into alignment within this
quadrant, which will be fully harmonised and opened with this
GATEWAY being a partial but important focus on your solar system and
will continue to open towards the end.
In time Duality and separation from the source will be healed. The
Earth is a minor focus compared to the sweeping changes across the
solar system and neighbouring systems. Locally this will bring in
massive Earth changes. Jupiter is the focus of this TRANSFORMATION
and activation of these changes.
The increasing I AM infusion of human consciousness is having a
difficult time transmuting the incoming flow of information for the
change. ON RECEIVING: The chakras system is at present in 70% to 89%
conflict (non allowing) with the third dimensional mental concepts,
e.g., denial. All seven bodies must process information, there is no
escape anymore, e.g., free will is being replaced by grace keys and
within these keys comes the full understanding of natural law; in
other words this Higher Self has to acknowledge what it's
doing(masculine).
The I Am presence is knocking at your door, you have no choice but
to let love in and some will sense it as the debt collector(bringing
out their worst fears). The I AM recognises humanities conflict on
all levels(with no blame) it continues to grace the human race by
taking 99% responsibility for them, THIS IS RELEASED ON A HEART
CHAKRA FOCUS AND IS DISPERSED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GENETICS OF THE
PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, SPIRITUAL, SEXUAL BODIES. Therefore it is
imperative that this alignment is to be allowed in through the
higher self. We have noticed an intolerance in some cases with total
rejection of this infusion and concept. These souls will find pain
and fear by not transmuting it and not taking responsibility(blame).
Chemically there is an imbalance in the physical body, e.g.
manifesting in the mental and physical bodies creating stress
related behaviour etc.
As the I AM prepares to full focus and leaves its full support
system in tact in this quadrant, it guarantees its healing process
is in place, secure, and fully aligned. The I AM presence will be
assessing the ability or inability for the cell and the nervous
system to assimilating the incoming information as this is an
important aspect to enhance. Depending on a person's damage to the
cell and nervous system will determine their ability to focus and
absorb. Aligning with the I AM and the Higher self calculates its
ability to transmute it.
The I AM and the higher self understands its own growth level. With
the I AM grounding rod comes an overwhelming support for you
personally. Allow this infusion in for this is not only 100% support
it also assists to focus and align.
Love from Ashtar
N.B. COPYRIGHT 1994 BY SPECTRUM LIFE FORCE.
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED,
INCLUDING THE RIGHT OF REPRODUCTION
IN WHOLE OR IN PART IN ANY FORM.
ALL CORRESPONDENCE VIA SPIRIT BBS BULLETIN BOARD MAIL BOX (NAME:
TAISS QUARTAPA) OR: SPECTRUM LIFE FORCE, P.O. BOX 5 CHADSTONE
CENTRE, VIC, AUSTRALIA, 3148
--- MBUTIL 1.22+
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Jupiter News2 1/2
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:36:06
--------
EID:ff28 1cf60c80
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad5
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 16 Jul 1994, 13:03
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 1 of 2]
14/07/94
ASHTAR COMMAND GROUND CONTROL
NEWS FLASH
- JUPITER EXPERIENCE -
PART 2
CHANNELLED BY - DANA SUMMER
Dear Dana,
As we explained in the last document the meteors are about to
collide with Jupiter. Being Earth's parent planet, this will be a
spectacular image for you all to see, if only you could see it from
where I stand.
I will keep a holographic replay for you all to see when you come
back home.
With Jupiter coming into alignment, being the spearhead of Physical
energetic WAVES concentrated towards your planet, the spot-light is
shining on you. This is one of the major focuses for the Ascension
of Earth.
Jupiter is the major factor fully focusing this change in your solar
system's alignment as this free will sector ( and the new univers
coming into alignment also, the 13th sector ) will be brought back
to natural law. So as you can see this is a major SHIFT for this
area. From Sunday approx 3.00am Melbourne time a TONE will be
triggered off by Jupiter through all VORTEXES and the entire
Merridian system of the areas marked for change.
This will be the big push ( shock waves ), as this is what we have
been waiting for.
As these Meteors hit one by one there will be a higher tone set each
time creating a pitch resounding beyond your sun to the new
universe. The Earth will begin to oscillate to this tone through the
axis becoming a grounding rod. Bringing in the core of the Earth,
living beings and all connected to our ship's cores to be activated.
The Earth core will begin to send out a vibration to the surface of
the planet where upon this will be assimilated through the tone
activation through the twelve major pyramids in place in operation
since 1986. The Sphinx is now working and relaying fully to each
important solar system in all twelve sectors. As with these relay
stations becoming fully interactive and bringing Earth's Sphinx into
alignment with the rest. This represents full connection and
continuity of the fully focused life-force once again coming into
play on Earth, now grounded here forever.
We have also placed many thousands of Sphere Prodes from our ships
ranging from blue to gold in colour in various size, to be put in
place around the globe for observation during this process. As for
the ones running amuck on your surface, they will come to realise
their creation standing before them, as this love energy is in
non-judgment. Their experience will be vastly different from
individual to individual in their judgment of themselves (physical
manifestation). I add this because many are on their pedestal
blowing their trumpet, and being good at blaming others for The
Mess. This will not be beneficial for healing a place such as this.
Why does Jupiter relate to this concept?
By the fact that Jupiter is expansion, a major catalyst, humanity
also chose to be here for this type of Earth ascension experience.
This tonal lifting is the creator's analysis and learning (as in us)
as the Ashtar Command and affiliated alliances from millions of
civilisations throughout the galaxies, will also benefit from this
experience for this will give us a greater understanding of
separation from the creator. We look at this Earth with amazement as
your extended family look at you in awe and love and say how much
more can you go on denying yourselves.
This is one of the reasons why the creator's focus on this planet
was necessary to refocus, assess and grace the living daylights out
of the place with no blame or judgement; everything will receive the
healing it so richly deserves. As the creator itself was overwhelmed
by its physical and energetic expression in SEPARATION.
As the TONE ( vibration ), is released on Sunday morning at three
o'clock approximately; the Earth will begin to shift on its axis
controlled by our ships as our Armada extends out from your Sun to
your last planet in your Solar system, holding this awesome exercise
in place with beams from our ships, as there is more concentrated
effort from our alliances from Jupiter to Venus. EARTH THE FOCUS.
The human race will begin to reel even further under their own
stuff, as your physical world, this third reality will begin to
vibrate higher and begin to break down even further. Some of these
symptoms will range from stress related illnesses. Sometimes you
will experience inert objects moving, i.e. buildings moving or
straight lines may start to curve. You may think you are going
crazy, but this is not so. And you may feel incoherent, not fully
there. Within your individual shifting reality will coincide with
your beliefs but I must warn you there is a point in your time
--- MBUTIL 1.22+
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Jupiter News2 2/2
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:36:08
--------
EID:ffd8 1cf60c80
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad6
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 16 Jul 1994, 13:03
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 2 of 2]
continuum that the concept of judgement, (denial) or responsibilty
for who you are fully will hit you like a brick wall. Be prepared
either way, because this is your choice. At that given time you will
ascend physically or non-physically, at that precise moment. As your
time continuum of your third reality ceases to exist, and overlays
into the fifth reality. All this infolds on itself to cleanse the
surface to eradicate the negativity within this sphere as all will
be played out, FINISHED.
At this point it will be the beginning of the rebuilding of EARTH
civilisation fully connected to your extended family.
This is the Last Judgement as Humanity will either co-operate or go
into conflict within themselves. The judgement restricts the
allowance of Light (LOVE), into the physical, emotional and mental
bodies. If they resist there is no co-operation.
The Creator does not judge.
The individual does, without understanding.
Thankyou for your diligent attention.
Love Ashtar...
--- MBUTIL 1.22+
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Advancement.
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:37:08
--------
EID:e20d 1cf60ca0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad7
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to Clark Hathaway
* Originally dated 15 Jul 1994, 2:17
WB> Ask glenda how far she has progressed in just one year? Then Why
WB> And How?
Who? Moi?
:)
How far? Leaps and Bounds. (picture me galloping in the fields of
consciousness).
Why? I made a conscious request of myself, to become more my true
self.
How? I asked for my ego self to move into communion with my Higher
Self. I was open to inner guidance leading me to my goal. The result
has been expanding consciousness, and nowadays, daily transformation.
Clark,
I would say that homo sapiens is presently becoming aware of who we
really are. My best advice is to go with the flow of universal
energy. Be guided by both your logic and intuition. Expect good
things, and you will see the good in whatever comes to you.
Check out this Jupiter event!
Time to go!
Glenda
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Interesting stuff
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:38:10
--------
EID:ee60 1cf60cc0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6580bad8
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 14 Jul 1994, 17:30
(From): SNET-L@WORLD.STD.COM
(Date:) Tue, 12 Jul 1994 13:40:27 -0400
(To:) snet-l@world.std.com
(From:) s54876@unicomp.net
(Subject:) Interesting Stuff
Hi All ...
Just got back from having lunch with a dear friend who is an excellent
psychic, now living in the Phoenix area. In town for a short visit
with clients, she shared a story I thought you might find interesting.
A client of hers from the L.A. area called her recently and said it's
getting _very_ strange vibrationally out there. A story appeared in
the newspapers, not long ago, that the California Highway Patrol (CHP)
has been increasing their pull-overs of people who appear to be
driving erratically. Numerous stops were reportedly being made.
One driver was pulled over for that very reason. After a thorough
search of their car and a highway sobriety test turned up nothing, the
Tropper asked the driver the reason for the erratic behavior. The man
told the Trooper that a blinding white light came through his front
windsheild, an Angel appeared to him and told him that on July 17th
the first trumpet would sound.
Interesting stuff ...
Best
Bill
===
* RM 1.3 00257 * If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hand.
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Hoagland
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:33:00
--------
EID:8522 1cf63c20
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 65876048
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to Glenda Stocks
* Originally dated 19 Jul 1994, 8:38
Hi Glenda: Now that you are reading Sitchens Books and have read Alternative
three. Just think how all this jives with the Mars and Moon and whats going
on
behind the scenes. Secret governments run by the filthy rich. In ancient
time
s they set up puppet kings etc. The rich think the commoner are low cast,
bel
ow them in status, intelligence and worthiness. Now think WHY? Who are these
p
ower mongers ruling everything behind the scenes? Why all the discrediting
of
Aliens? Why all the discrediting of anything relating to life beyond Earth?
If
you are starting to get my drift here, maybe you are beginning to realise
Ali
ens rule this planet. This bunch not benevolent are controling everything
at t
he expense of the people here with little regard for the welfare of those
the
rule.
The things that take the heavest heat in debunker circles usually end up
the t
hings closest to the actual truth. THE THINGS THEY DO NOT WANT US TO KNOW.
Thi
ngs dealing with this have already been carbon dated to thirty or more thousan
d years back in Sitchens books. But what is denied heatedly is the parts
that
bring this into focus. They are small points one being the refusal to admitt
i
n there being anything relating to intervention on Earth. Why would this
be de
nied and totally unexceptable? Who would gain by keeping this discredited?
Wh
at would it expose if it were accepted and other questions then arose? Are
you
getting my drift here? Who are the elite anyway? Think what they have contrib
uted or hidden in their secret societies and their use of power in what
they h
ave created. Heres the answer WARS, Control of all natural resources, Control
of all technology and it's use, and clearly the direction everything is
going.
Heres a thread to discuss.
(1) Why have civilizations advanced to a high degree and mysteriously disappea
red?
(2) What re-ocurred that might have a sound foundation in relating these
event
s as to cause and effect?
(3) Where has the sources of predictions such as the Bible states in coming
ev
ents have to do with scientific cycled events?
(4) Who or what is considered a God to evolving civilizations and why?
(5) Why are legends, myths, and validation there of by ancient texts flatly
re
fused as accepted facts of history relating world events of our past.
(6) Why is ET the topic that is flatly rejected as being a possibility when
ev
erything points to we are not alone.
(7) Why are UFO's under attack?
(8) What do they really represent to those ruling this planet and why?
(9) Why is channeled material relating a show down in a prescribed time
schedu
le and what can we see that this might relate to from existing proof of
the 12
Th planet.
(10) How does this validate itself in sitchens book the War Of The Gods?
(11) Who and what might be coming and how does it relate to all of the above?
regards Walter
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Gridworlks
Date: 22 Jul 94 07:33:00
--------
EID:70d4 1cf63c20
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 65876049
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to Walter Bartoo
* Originally dated 18 Jul 1994, 1:17
(From): IDG@ICONZ.CO.NZ
(To) : ALL
System: SNET
Conf. : 0009 - CONSPIRACY
********************************************************************
He's written a lot of books. The software sounds interesting but I
can't quite get the hang of it. Omni rejected the story. Is it worth
serious disussion or is he a nutter? - Keith 8-)
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
By Keith Newman 10/93
Former airline pilot and authour Bruce Cathie believes he's put the
Holy Grail of physics into the public domain with a software package
called Gridworks which brings together 27-years of research.
And Auckland-based Cathie is so confident in his findings, published in
full for the first time on disk, that he's challenged the scientific
community to refute them if possible.
Cathie has been working with software developer and computer consultant
Rodney Maupin from Seattle, Washington for the past two years to come
up with the two disk package which has just been launched.
Gridworks calculates great circles tracks and distances, light and
gravity harmonics for any latitude and earth co-ordinates and energy
grid co-ordinates which Cathie claims put a unified theory into public
hands for the first time.
Cathie, who has published five books on his findings says although his
original research was triggered by reports of UFO sightings around the
world and their relationship to geographical points, he claims the grid
he has uncovered is of extreme scientific importance.
While Cathie claims he's the first to make this information public, he
claims it's been used by scientists at top government levels for
decades for extremely high frequency communications and for
electro-magnetic propulsion.
Cathie alleges his findings prove that gravity, acceleration and light
are harmonic reciprocals of each other. When understood with a 27 unit
clock for one revolution of the earth, allegedly used by NASA for the
measurement of time, he claims the harmonic relationship can be
understood.
He says his theories can be unified through means of classical physics
and into geographic terms using "one minute of arc on the earth's
surface" as a basic unit.
He says Gridworks is a table of advanced scientific relationships
between the earth's magnetic field, gravity and light and makes much of
what we claim to know today obsolete.
He believes many of the UFO sightings around the world are in fact
"model T" space vehicles using the energy grid he has documented. He
says their creators are not spacepeople but scientists who have access
to the knowledge he's now making public.
He says the grid can be used as a means of propulsion and
communication. He alleges many of the world's most advanced
communications facilities are actually located at key points on the
grid as are the great pyramids in Egypt and China and all atom bomb
test sites.
"Gridworks could be worth its weight in gold to people who know what
they're doing. This knowledge allows you to manipulate gravity and the
electromagnetic field and this is has been withheld from the general
public," says Cathie.
He says the Yugosalvian inventor NikolaTesla who was responsible for
alternating current electric motor and the first remote controlled boat
back in late 1800's was aware of the grid. Cathie claims Tesla tapped
directly into this alternative energy source when he came up with the
world's first electric car in 1931 which would travel at 90Mph. using
what Tesla called a gravitational energy converter
Cathie says the world energy grid program, Gridworks is already making
waves with several copies being sold into the US scientific community,
including people associated with the Mars mission.
"These tables are not supposed to exist according to classical physics.
It's what Einstein was convinced about and what apparently a number of
scientists have know about for year but have ensured never got into the
textbooks," says Cathie.
Gridworks which gives either a graphic or textual view of the world and
the alleged grids and equaitons is available in DOS format for $280 (ex
GST) from the author at 158 Shaw Rd, Oratia, Auckland.
####################################################################
Email me with your views? Also questions to ask him next time we meet?
- Keith.
####################################################################
===
* RM 1.3 00257 * Me... a skeptic? I trust you have proof...
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: I_ufo and their rules
Date: 22 Jul 94 09:54:04
--------
EID:4246 1cf64ec0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 6589bf9f
REPLY: 3:800/857 2e280250
PID: FM 2.02
Hiya Jackson,
> OK, previous decision recinded. Those who wish to keep
> tabs on I_UFO feel free to do so *within reason* If we
> start becoming little more than an anthology of their
> attempts to purge themsleves of all those horrible skeptics
> and the internecine struggles Rick is so looking forward to
> I'll change it back again.
I'm glad that you will permit this to continue within reason. I'll do my
best
to forward here some posts that may make you laugh harder than you did with
"F
ree Willy" and enable Dr Pepper to have the most killer database on the
planet
. :)
Don
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: I found a happy TrueFoamingBeliever, so I annoyed them. (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: 4-d ready
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:33:00
--------
EID:36b6 1cf74c20
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 66095ea1
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 20 Jul 1994, 21:42
Today the 16/6/94, the 4th Dimensional Hierarchy have officially
RESIGNED to the GALACTIC FEDERATION, releasing their grip on the
WORLD POWER GRID ( ELITE ). This means that the non responsibility
of each and every individual of this planet EARTH has been given
back their 4th Dimensional embodiment, i.e., this embodiment is the
outer casing of an entire being. In balance this is the full
connection to the LIFE FORCE. This was released today by the 4th
hierarchy. This embodiment is now being fully aligned to you all, as
this is the final adjustment to the EARTHS 4th Dimensional
embodiment aligning to yours also. This means that 4th dim has been
bridged fully.
These embryos appear as a sillouette of your body shape and its
energy is inert devoid of light. This sillouette will transform from
black to a silver white as a person begins to transmute. This
merging will also give the ASHTAR COMMAND full understanding of the
damage incured by the 4th Dimensions reign of FEAR over our world
and on us individually. These black inert embryos are the non
transmuted aspects of a person. The incoming information of the
damage from us and the planet will continue to be analysed by the
Ashtar Command as from now. This will continue until the earth is
healed etc. With the incoming HEALING LOVE energies increasing as
the damage is transmuted by the LIGHT FORCES, this will be felt by
you all and becoming very noticeable to the individual . Mostly the
symptoms will be within the MENTAL and EMOTIONAL BODIES as these are
the first to be affected by the incoming information, good or bad.
At this delicate moment there is much competition as this is the
spear head or the omni focus for you and your planet to focus back
to the light. We are poised, F U L L A L E R T.
This is unprecedented. As the vibration rises sharply within the
next few days, the interference being transmitted from the man made
EARTH GRID through the satellites will increase. This will be
buffeted by our SHIPS' focused beams. The affects on you all will be
like living in a whirl pool. I must stress, for you NOT to focus on
anothers confusion or conflicts as this will only amplify yours. By
no means turn your back on them. One must stand on their own feet
They will feel the truth inside as you become more conscious of your
world crumbling. So too will your most vulnerable fears be focused
on. Remember be in your POWER to receive the correct support from
the LOVE FOCUS from all around you. Also, I will add here, if it
does not feel right in your energetic body (your entire being) then
discard it IMMEDIATELY. If it feels right visualise it expanding
eliminating negativity throughout your body. Your heart chakra and
solar plexus will be receiving all this ascension information, as we
the ASHTAR COMMAND have full connection to your receiving energetic
field through these two areas mainly. So do the REBEL ELITE FORCES
have this focus but they on the other hand are finding it more
difficult to focus on their hold as the minutes pass by; natural law
(light information) must be EMBRACED by everything.
===
* RM 1.3 00257 * We've replaced the dilithium with Folgers Crystals!
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Ground nuke weapons
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:34:00
--------
EID:61b8 1cf74c40
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 66095ea2
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 20 Jul 1994, 21:42
14/6/1994.
ASHTAR COMMAND - NEWS FLASH
CHANNELLED BY - MERVYN MULLER
TRANSLATION - CASSANDRA COOK
GROUNDING OF ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS,
I.E. DEACTIVATION AND THE DEACTIVATION
OF NEGATIVITY IN THE HUMAN RACE.
This is a time of transition for all dimensions associated with this
planet. This channelling is an update on the the transition
transpiring at this crucial point of the evolution of the universe
and the Earth. For Earth is the spearhead for this process.
The mass consciousness of this planet is receiving the understanding
of responsibility to themselves but mostly on a higher level. On a
conscious level they are desperately hanging onto their beliefs of
this dimension, being their ultimate reality & they are panicking.
They feel as if their reality is crumbling around them and this is
the message they are receiving from their higher selves. This
message is being given to them by the K9 ships.
The human race is transmitting the precise focus of what damage has
transpired & we are analysing the data on how to heal the negative
belief systems. Also we have calculated precisely the breaking down
of all destructive forces like nuclear weapons and grids.
We also have established the very foundation of the Earth's energy
preparing it for the ascension. When the four plus the two grounded
a major key energy to the planet: 7 keys, 7 cups, 7 jewels, 7
spectrum, 7 books, 7 continents & 7 rods were released to
re-establish the link back to natural law. These energies were
released by the Dolphin king-King Dorf ( equivalent to the Sananda
energy for the dolphins). The reason for this is that this
particular energy is a foundation of the Earth energy within its
natural state. Now that this energy is grounded and stabilised
within the Earth's energy , the eighth energy. This energy needs to
be established seeing as this added vibration holds the next
building block for the reconnection to the Earth's natural energetic
status. This energy is added to the former foundation of the seven
key elements. This is all done to establish the foundations for the
mass consciousness to have an energetic example of Natural Law for
the Ascension process.
The ascension process is to allow self to become as it is created in
the Creator's eyes. The build up of vibration from the balanced
seven cycle to the ninth, this symbolises the emanation of
understanding of self-natural law and physicality all merged and in
harmony with the creator.
The dolphins are the very link to the foundation of such
understanding. At the moment, particular mass consciousnesses of
animals are emanating and grounding their own focus and knowledge
for the support of the Earth's transition through the rainbow
bridge to its natural status. They give permission to support the
process and the energetic understanding is supported from their
origins-planet. Dolphins, whales, wolves and oxes are the key
animals that are doing this. This is along with the cooperation of
the 5th dimensional ships. These ships are designed to transmute the
misalignment of natural law and are transmitting the message of the
ascension, constantly in the Earth's mass consciousness.
The foundation has been set and the very bridging of the third,
fourth and fifth dimensions are all in the p-rocess of transmuting
the fourth dimension via the infusion of the uranium to a balanced
state. This achieves the raising of the vibration of the masculine
polarity of fission (implosion) to the balanced natural state of the
masculine/infusion (informing the physical to be in its full power).
This is done by merging the seven spectrum with the understanding of
masculine and feminine. This merging raises the understanding to
oneness (9-Sananda/Rainbow Bridge). Through Light Infusion using
numerological keys, we are changing the very structures that have
manipulated amd interfered with the mass consciousnesses electrical
magnetic field and the dismantling of their protective membrane,
Aura.
When this is achieved by reversing the masculine polarity, we then
have to align these aspects with natural law so that we can shut
them down, so our ships can enter the atmosphere safely to collect
all on the surface, When the planet surface is cleared we are
activating the grid to be connected with the Light so it is linked
in with the rest of the planets within this solar system and
universes.
===
* RM 1.3 00257 * If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hand.
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 138 435 752 850 851 852 890 943 1302 147/7 170/400 209/207
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Earth<-->jupiter 01
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:35:02
--------
EID:b287 1cf74c60
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 66095ea3
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 20 Jul 1994, 21:42
17 - 20th JULY 1994
ASHTAR COMMAND
NEWS FLASH
ANGELIC SCRIPT BY MERVYN MULLER.
TRANSLATION BY CASSANDRA, DANA AND BETHRAN.
EARTH'S CORE ENERGY READINGS
IN RESPONSE TO JUPITER.
The Earth's core is open to receiving information as is currently
arriving to Jupiter. The information ( masculine) is being infused
into Jupiter's surface (feminine). This unity is manifesting in
physical waves of balanced masculine, feminine, creator energy.
Energetic waves of extremely high intensity frequency . The core is
receiving this energetic and physical wave. The core frequency
previous to this infusion was 6879789057251. The formula JJJ/N-1
clearly states that the creator focus is working in energetic
harmony with natural law. The frequencies are directly infused into
the cores.
The Earth's core is at present in need for all awakened starseeds,
animals and plants etc., to ground this physical wave at a rate
equivalent to its entry. The meteors are _hitting_ Jupiter's outer
atmosphere. The core is responding to this energetic infusion at a
frequency of 102025. This energy representing the creator focus is
magnified (1/500) * 1000% in intensity. This energetic wave then
traverses throughout Jupiter, through the outer atmosphere . This is
then further grounded inside the cores of the Ashtar Command craft.
There are Armadas currently intercepting this energy which then
reaches the outer energetic membrane of the Earth. Jupiter and Earth
are at this point connected to each other and are at the same
frequency. This creates an automatic inversion in the grid patterns
from negative masculine polarity to a balanced creator focus. All
physical beings are conduits. They are receiving the information in
physical energetic waves ( masc/ fem/ balanced). Those who open
themselves to receiving the energy automatically ground the energy
to the Earth's core. You may already be experiencing, consciously,
the effects of this phenomenon. Within your being you will be
experiencing a sensation of tingling energy from just under the skin
to the bones. A sense of disconnection may be felt- a sense of
you're not being here. Some feelings may be associated to flu and
chronic fatigue symptoms. Those who choose to negate this experience
will experience a huge shift and all uresolved issues will come to a
head. The Earth's core is at present in need for all awakened star
seeds, animals and plants etc. to ground this physical wave at a
rate equivalent to its entry. Once the Earth's core ( Earth is the
key for transition process of the omniverse to enter the 13th
gateway and ultimately the creation of the 13th sector), has
grounded this energy, it is then reflected back and the _circuit_
begins again. The purpose of this process is to ultimately increase
the vibration of Earth in order for the Ascension process to take
place with Jupiter as the catalyst.
(PLANET JUPITER CORE STABILISING ) MASC./ FEM. /ANDROGENY
(FREQUENCY: 102025 ) OUTER ATMOSPHERE.
MAGNIFICATION OF FREQUENCY/INTENSITY AT JUPITER BY .(1/500)* 1000%
\/
ASHTAR COMMAND SHIP CORES.
\/
EARTH CORE SUBJECT TO CHANGE.
WITHIN THE OUTER MEMBRANE THE GRID PATTERNS ARE INVERSED FROM NEGATIVE
MASCULINE POLARITY TO BALANCED CREATOR FOCUS.
The gravity/magnetic pull on the Earth's surface is in oscillation
and is increasing at 1/5.2.6.98 millionth of a second. By the time
this energy hits the Earth's surface it triggers off a physical
molecular change. So, we are experiencing a (time )shift in reality.
The tonal aspect is for us to continue to be masculine conduits
(full focus) until all meteors have hit. Each meteorite has a
specific tone vibration of + 6. The frequency reaching the earth's
surface is 434579807. This increase in intensity will create a break
of gravity. For the support system to function smoothly the gravity
levels need to be reduced by 0.0.002. We have bypassed all grey
system technology. This is not applicable when we are focusing on
the Earth's ascension. The velocity and intensity of the ship beams/
millisecond is m*1 (creator focus)/2. Returning to the events taking
place within Jupiter's core, the tone is building up and coming into
full alignment with the creator. Within the core itself there is an
energetic reconnection of twin flame and parent concepts/energies.
The unity of masculine, feminine and androgeny creates a tonal
vibration of 6/20*1 per foundation tone/hit. This means that full
focus negativity in relation to full focus positivity is in a
dynamic balance of focus. (-22/+55) * (484/587) is the current
vibration and velocity factor. This is calculated per second and the
Ashtar is informing us of changes. This process requires full
alignment energetically between Jupiter, the Ashtar Command and
Earth. The four aspects of the energetic pyramid are brought into
full focus and duality is being healed and brought into focus for
processing.
The quintessence of a comet's major output of energy is to inform.
As in the case of the Jupiter experience, we overestimated its
Continued in the next message...
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Life In The Stars
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:37:02
--------
EID:019f 1cf74ca0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 66095ea4
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Walter Bartoo
* Originally to ALL
* Originally dated 20 Jul 1994, 15:12
Hi All: Ever wonder why anyone stating there is life beyond Earth is imediatel
y
open for redicule? Ever wonder why the government and scientific circles
refus
e to confirm this even when the facts are abundant this is more than mere
spec
ulation? How does one bridge this and find out the truth?
Let me answer the first question. In the years I've researched this question
I
found myself distancing myself from others in doing so. The more I found
out,
the more the field dwindled in who was able to address or discuss the facts.
I often wondered why this was so and in doing came up with a few insights.
First off everything is based and set in ideas that are carried in a group
min
dset. I found early on anything upsetting this mindset was up against a
brick
wall. It's funny because until you think for yourself you are not even aware
t
his wall existed!! This further got disjointed as I saw and the realisation
hi
t me this wall was no accident. We as a society were being from a very early
a
ge Conditioned/Programmed to react this way. In other words
we were programed to think a certain way. Why was this so? There had to
be a
rational answer here that justified why this was being done. The answer
did co
me one day quite by chance when I realised the truth of the influences effecti
ng us and the truth of Genesis. It came when I understood how we were created
and by whom. How Religions started and why.
Heres what my research revealed. As man the creation began to evolve and
unde
rstand things beyond being beasts of burden had to change. What this change
in
dicated was man was part beast and part God. In order to control the God
part
that part had to be veiled in mystery from man. If this were not done as
man h
ad intelligence he would undermine the power over him the Gods had. The
more m
an related to his creator the more he became less a beast of burden and
more a
God. To prevent this the Gods masked and hid their side of things from mans
e
yes. At this point cult religions were set up and Priests were the go between
to the Gods. Man could see the wonders but not directly know the ones creating
the wonders. Knowing was becoming what had made Man in the first place puttin
g man on equal footing with the creator.
Some of the Creator Gods wanted man to evolve as a God. Others did not!
The co
ntroversy became heated and created conflict for many thousands of years.
So g
reat was this conflict, Wars became prevelant across the Earth. The side
that
eventually won did not want man to understand his origins. This is where
we st
and today. The other side having lost is now returning to set man free and
giv
e him his place in the Stars. The main group weaker than the victors could
not
muster the need forces from the mother planet till it was in a closer approac
h to Earth. This is now close to occuring and
one of the most hidden secrets from Earth inhabitats. Many have died having
ke
pt this a secret.
The above is the reason for disimformation on extraterrestrials and the
refusa
l to release the truth hidden in our history revealing what and who controls
t
his planet and why. When one aspect becomes known then every other aspect
beco
mes suspect and eventually the truth demanded will then surface.
The way to stop this from occuring was to program the whole human race with
lies based on more lies further dezigned to hide the truth. So great is
this
on going deception that it takes real initative to uncover and see the real
facts behind this plan and who is really behind it and why.
When you relay this few will accept it, unless they too have gone the extra
mile to see and find the truth. Because in doing it tears at everything
we
have ever been taught and I mean EVERYTHING! To suggest this is to totally
di
scredit yourself to those who are still stuck in the lie and refuse to go
out
and find the real truth behind everything. You see there is a difference
for s
ome that is hard to see. That is the only way to get beyond ones beliefs
is to
have the desire to seek the truth, once found you no longer believe but
KNOW.
Many do not and will literally fight you to the
death defending their beliefs not realising the word belief comes from the
word belie meaning not true.
Once the truth comes out Religions fall. The Controls become highly suspect
no longer having a hold over humanity and people will have to accept a new
responsibility for everything based on truth versus living under beliefs
as th
e way to go. On that day belief wont cut it! The human race will have then
gro
wn up and have become adults not children irresponsible in almost everything
b
ecause they will understand and not be side tracked in not knowing anything.
W
HY? Because nothing will be the same and to understand anything will require
l
earning the truth. Once the Bubble of deceit bursts a rush will be on to
under
stand everything. Because everything will be then seen differently. This
is wh
at the Space brothers that wanted for man to become as they are, to understand
. This is what the deceiver never wanted you to understand. Once understood
th
ey cannot hide from you, use you and control you, because they are then
you an
d you are then them. You will not accept class distinction any longer and
they
know it!
Is the truth worth learning? I can say yes only because those finding it
are a
group growing rapidly and we are not any longer alone. When you find
the truth a funny thing happens you then meet others like you and your life
takes on new meaning and changes abruptly. For the better I might add. Dig
for
the truth it's well worth learning and the result puts you eons ahead of
most
everyone else. DO NOT ACCEPT BELIEF IT IS BASED ON A LIE. From then on out
See
k and you shall find, look and you will see, and listen and you will hear.
The
n you are on your last leg home the Stars and your bigger family.
regards Walter
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Balancing energies 01
Date: 23 Jul 94 09:37:04
--------
EID:74b1 1cf74ca0
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 66095ea5
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "I_UFO"
* Originally by Glenda Stocks
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 20 Jul 1994, 21:42
CHANNELLED BY MERV: TRANSLATED BY CASSANDRA. GROUNDING OF NUCLEAR
REACTOR STATIONS BY THE 4.
Greetings Merv, this is Tesh, son of RA and KRYAL OF ASHTAR. It has
occured to us, for quite some time, that the forces that rebel
against the natural order of the multitudes of universes have had,
in their hands, knowledge of technology that reverses the very force
that holds all living matter together within harmony. These beings
have used their developed knowledge, of the structure of how the
creator supports its physical aspect, and have learned how to
manufacture this to block out the creator force within the cellular
structure and energetic structure of this planet. They have achieved
this, to some degree, to separate the human consciousness from the
planet and from each other energetically, as well as separating both
from their source of creation. This technology is known as nuclear
energy. Other technology that interferes in the structure of the
natural life force is telephones, T.V., Electricity, Computers,
microwaves, satellites, C.D.'s Radios & anything associated with
these technologies. This could all be reversed and neutralised by
bringing in the positive polarity energy which brings in the balance
because the blending of both Polarities within harmony sets up a
third energetic force which enables the two polarities to lock into
a union with one third energy setting up a triangle. This union
insures the stabilisation of natrual law (Natural Equilibrium). The
principle of nuclear energy is a chain reaction of splitting up the
equilibrium of the harmony of duality of the atomic structure of a
particular element of your earth. So the energy regardless of
whether it's in the turbine or in your power points it is still on
an atomic level. All other technologies work on another level they
work on activating DNA memory release of fears to continuously
support the individual in the belief system that life is a struggle.
So humanity on a mass conscious level are infused on an energetic
level to believe they are powerless & life is painful which is the
prime objective of these beings for if the human race is confused
its not easy to be objective. This enables these beings to control
the mass consciousness for their own selfish means. This technology
was developed to make these to continuously personally enforce the
prime objective of control; which is fear. In other words they have
machines which hold the frequency for them. I shall summarise this
from another perspective. If you imagined a mass consciousness then
believed on an emotional level that they weren't safe, they will be
protective. It is hard for them to open up and receive the real
frequencies that govern their true existence (love, light,
understanding, etc.,) This is what the greys (or Rebel beings) want
because this sets up a regime of powerlessness and the belief
nothing else exists except pain and the belief that one deserves it
anyway. So our dilemma is not only scientific but emotional. We have
firstly understood that some one had to give us permission to help
to end the regime on this planet for unlike the rebels one of the
guidelines we operate on within natural law is the code of
non-interference for every thing has freewill. For this permission
we needed a person with an inkling of an understanding that what
they lived in was a devious lie. For this to happen they need a
strength in them to allow love, now when in fear this is impossible.
This was achieved but for the mass consciousness to get to this
point they needed to have no intereference from the greys because we
realised some don't have the belief that they have strength in them.
So in order to understand they live in a lie and they live under a
fascist government controlled by extra terrestrials that don't care
about where their lives go. Because of the overall mass conscious
the few that have gotten to the point of understanding what they
live in and the way they can live in within natural law we have been
able to understand fully the dilemma on the planet because of their
conscious help. We know scientifically how we can reverse the damage
that has been done. But we still cannot get through on an emotional
level until the greys give up their domain which they will. We are
neutralising the nuclear reactors by balancing the atomic structure.
This is done by bringing in the balancing factor to the continuous
duality that the atomic structure is based on. By bringing in the
third energetic focus within the atomic structure both negative &
positive polarity are pulled into alignment by the third setting up
a triangle. This then sets the physical element into the natural
equilibrium that all exists within natural law. In turn this
reverses the breaking down cycles the greys set up by adding a
stronger structure triangle. But before this can occur the issue of
the bringing down and aligning of this third focus has to be
considered. So we aren't working with an energetic polarity here
like electricity which can simply be reversed by bringing positive
polarity then stablilised by the third which is a focus of the
two (positive, negative) to work in harmony. We are working with
stopping the physical splitting of a cell-which means splitting the
masculine & feminine (pos, Neg). This creates the implosion of the
life force this is more devastating than just negative polarity,
which can be fixed simply by adding its other self(pos). We aren't
talking changing the form of one thing into another like wood into
ash via fire. We are talking not existing anymore, and everyone
exposed to this chain reaction parts of themselves are non-existent.
The way we compute this hurdle is to bring in the memory of the cell
or atomic structure in and then force the energy which bonds the
element to receive this. Our next step is to dismantle the reactor.
This isn't achievable just yet so at the moment we are utilising the
process of reversing the splitting of the atomic structure. (a+b+c2
= positive+ neg+ natural 2)(natural law) .This calculation is the
natural cycle in which an energetic structure supports & inform the
Continued in the next message...
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: Kortron Speaks 2/2
Date: 23 Jul 94 10:43:00
--------
EID:f8d5 1cf75560
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 660a95cc
PID: FM 2.02
* Forwarded from "INFO.PARANET"
* Originally by tim Shell
* Originally to Don Allen
* Originally dated 12 Jul 1994, 13:45
Don Allen passed along:
I guess the most disappointing thing about it is the lack of
originality. I've found that a truly engaging speculative post
requires several things, one of the most important being a
very light touch when incorporating standard UFO folklore. A
little is good, necessary even, a lot is very bad.
Because UFO folklore is borrowed so freely from popular (and
generally bad) science fiction, it doesn't take much to push a
UFO story into the realm of bad sci-fi. Alternative 3, Star
Wars, Star Trek, "V", Captain Planet, CE3, and assorted others.
Without *originality*, the synthesis is stale.
Even the etymology of the name "Kortron" contains this same bad
synthesis. Using the "K," and the "tron" gives it a vaguely
Greek feel. The Semetic "kor" would reflect back to an Arabic
_qor_ or _qur_ and indicate a container or vessel of measure
(such as in the name of the Koran -- a "container" of knowledge).
Okay, that's fine.
But combined with that "tron" suffix! It has a couple of
possible derivations:
1) Borrowed from "electron," used originally by the Greeks as
the name of the color we now call amber. So "tron" is "color,"
and "kor-tron" might mean "a container of color." Which is
either: a) a misnomer, since color is not inherent in an
object, but rather a result of contextual reflection, or
b) a paint can.
2) "Tron," devrived from the Arabic "nitrun," which is the name
of naturally occuring hydrated sodium carbonate (Na2CO3.10H20).
In it's bicarbonate form this is used as a medicine to produce
gas and neutralize acidity to relieve intestinal distress (fart
gas). So "kor-tron" might mean "a container of fart gas."
I leave it to the newsgroup to determine which they feel is most
suitable.
Tim "From the Anglo-Saxon 'scyll,'
meaning 'to peel off or separate'" Shell
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: The UFO Cults 1/3
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:44:12
--------
EID:add2 1cf77580
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 660e8af9
PID: FM 2.02
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 1 of 3]
** Extract from: "Phenomenon - Forty Years of Flying Saucers". Edited
by John Spencer & Hillary Evans. Copyright 1988 by BUFORA. Avon Books.
ISBN: 0-380-70654-7
** This is posted for informational purposes only **
=====================================================================
The UFO Cults
Kevin McClure
Frequent claims have been made during the past forty years, that
individuals and groups have received messages, information and
instruction from intelligences and entities that claim to come from
the same sources as UFOs.
There are few cultures in the world that do not have as their
spiritual centre a belief system based on information from a non-human
source. That source can be personalized - the issue of the Ten
Commandments by Jehovah to Moses - or it can be found in a body of
writing - The Koran, The Talmud. The relationship to the non-human
source can vary considerably. Buddhism encourages a striving to
become one with that source. Judaism a detailed adherence to its laws,
Catholicism promotes a judgemental system of error and forgiveness,
where there can be a relationship with the divine. In simpler
societies the relationship is managed through a shaman, or
witch-doctor figure, chosen by a village or tribe. The more a culture
develops sophistication and intellectual achievement, the more likely
it is to develop a priesthood and the need to explain and understand
its relationship to the rest of creation, and to the time before the
birth and after the death of each individual.
Consequently, it is hardly surprising that the most ancient of
cultural mysteries - religion - has become deeply involved with the
most modern of cultural mysteries - the UFO Experience.
Most of our knowledge of the UFO Experience comes from reports from
those who have witnessed UFOs of many kinds, from simple
light-in-the-sky, to complex close encounter cases. There is objective
evidence for very few of these, but it is important that they were
_unexpected_ experiences; events that occurred out of the blue, that
surprised and mystified the witnesses. Though a few go on to have
repeat experiences, and to anticipate and welcome them, a great
majority of witnesses shun publicity, and gain little pleasure from
their experience. It is clear that a great many decide never even to
tell anybody outside their immediate family. The credibility of the
UFO experience as a whole rests not on individual reports but on what
the ancient Greeks called `common notion'. Simply, if enough people
believed something to be true, then it probably was. The only fair
conclusion to be drawn on this basis is that a substantial number of
reasonable people have been witnesses to events that cannot be
rationally explained. However, the UFO cults, or belief groups, almost
entirely avoid the accepted processes of report and investigation, but
still play a part in the public understanding of the UFO field. It is
proper that we look at their claims.
Claims of communication and instruction from UFO-related intelligences
are frequent and persistent. Most groups are short lived and to judge
from material recently received from the USA we are entering a golden
age of UFO belief groups. However, let us look at what a few
extraterrestrial intelligences have had to say:
'I am one of these Advanced Spiritual Beings. I have come from a
very high spiritual world called Aries; I am not an Earth Person. I
am now living as an Earth Person in a physical body. I came to teach
the Earth people' (Uriel, through Ruth E. Norman of the Unarius
Foundation.)
`Will you agree to be the saviour of the world?' (Ashtar, to
American contactee Allen-Michael Noonan.)
'Prepare yourself! You are to become the voice of Interplanetary
Parliament!' (Invisible entity to George King, founder of the
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: The UFO Cults 2/3
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:43:12
--------
EID:ad22 1cf77560
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 660e8afa
PID: FM 2.02
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 2 of 3]
Aetherius Society.)
'I, Raymere, transmit once more upon this occasion in order to speak
with you about the things of the next period of time ... you will
find that you are moving into a higher frequency wherein there is a
totally new dimension'. (Raymere, a space being, through Alenti
Francesca at the Solar Light Retreat.)
'Earth's vortex is about to break because of an excess amount of
hatred ...' (The space brothers resident on Io, one of the moons of
Jupiter, to 'Gordon', a US contactee from 1967.)
These are typical of a great many more. They purport to be from
non-human sources, channelled through a particular human being who
then becomes the centre of attention in a belief group: The source
claims a knowledge of human and universal affairs superior to any that
humanity could hope to achieve. In addition to this display of
knowledge, there is almost always an exhortation for members of the
belief group to undertake a task, or live in a particular, unusual
way, in order to do something about a situation of which the source
has made them aware. This task may be as complex as constructing a
working flying saucer, or working in prayer with UFO entities to avoid
disasters and change the history of the world, or as simple as
spreading the word of the reality of Martians or Venusians, or of the
civilizations in the centre of the Earth. All too often, a way of life
is demanded that immediately sets the group members apart from the
friends and neighbours around them.
On such a basis have been founded many UFO-based belief groups. The
classic account of the life and death of such a group is in the
excellent book "When Prophecy Fails" by Festinger, Reicken, and
Schachter, sociologists who joined a group in Utah as observers, and
spent many hours within the group. The leader and 'channel' for the
group was Marion Keech, who first received messages from her father,
then from the `Elder Brother', and then from entities who said they
came from the planets Clarion and Cerus. Her closest contact was
Sananda, who had previously been Jesus! In 1954 her group forecast a
major and disastrous flood, from which she and her followers would be
physically removed by extraterrestrials. The group and its message
received considerable publicity, and its members gave up jobs and
possessions. During the last few days before the predicted end the
messages became wilder and more contradictory, and when the appointed
night came there was neither flood nor rescue. Deeply disappointed,
the group drifted apart.
A couple of other cases from the USA: I mentioned 'Gordon' whose
Institute for Cosmic Research was given the task of building a flying
saucer - The Bluebird - by one of the Great White Brothers (who make
remarkably frequent appearances among many belief groups). Gordon's
followers persisted with their task for seven years before they began
to realize that they were getting nowhere, and the group broke up.
More rewarding - for its founders at least - was HIM, Human Individual
Metamorphosis, which appeared in California in 1975. Run by Bo and
Peep - the chosen names of a psychiatric nurse and one of her patients
- they procured a substantial following among the post-hippy
generation by preaching that they would be assassinated, only to be
resurrected after three days. They also promised that once their
followers had achieved a lifestyle of sufficient asceticism, UFOs
would come for them, and they would be removed to a physical plane
above the Earth. Bo and Peep made a good deal of money, but nobody
made any exciting journeys!
Perhaps the belief group which has attracted the largest and most
consistent following is the Aetherius Society, founded and based in
Britain, but with active branches in major cities throughout the
world. Following his call to become the `Voice of Interplanetary
Parliament' George King, who had a background in what, in the 1950s,
was known as 'the occult', founded the Aetherius Society. Over the
past thirty years it has developed a detailed cosmology, in which many
flying saucers represent a benign and concerned force, the
Interplanetary Parliament. King wrote extensively, and explained how
he had travelled to Mars and Venus, stating that Mercury was the only
uninhabited planet. He detailed a battle he fought on a massive flying
saucer of an interplanetary space fleet, 40,000,000 miles from Earth.
In public meetings he gave out - and continues to give - messages from
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Don Allen
To: All
Sub: The UFO Cults 3/3
Date: 23 Jul 94 14:44:14
--------
EID:6d73 1cf77580
MSGID: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 660e8afb
PID: FM 2.02
[Created by Psplit 1.03] [Page 3 of 3]
entities such as Mars Sector 6, the Master Aetherius and even the
Master Jesus, who is apparently living on or near Venus. The tasks set
for members of the Aetherius Society are usually of charging
'spiritual batteries' for the use and protection of suffering
humanity, at various sites around the Earth. To quote briefly from the
Society's account of Operation Prayer Power, an effort to help
invasion-threatened Poland in 1981, as published in the journal
"Cosmic Voice" : The Los Angeles battery had to be substituted for the
inadequate Detroit one, because the Prayer Energies were not being
picked up by Adepts 002 and 003 in position in their invisible [!]
space craft above the central base of operations in Los Angeles ...
the Great White Brotherhood Retreat in Kilimanjaro, East Africa, had
now joined in the release pattern ....' At the end of the operation,
Mars Sector 6 informed King that `there was a heavy resonance of
Spiritual Energies over the whole of Poland'.
In the great majority of belief groups the source intelligences do
nothing to prove themselves to the world at large, nothing to _prove_
themselves even to their own followers: `Only believe, and thou shalt
see.' But what is it that the average group member really believes in?
The channel; the person through whom the messages are being
transmitted, who runs the group or cult, who asks, and organizes,
demands and - of course - promises. Perhaps this is why the group
members take so long to become critical and untrusting - it is the
charisma of the messenger that holds the group together, not the
conviction of the message.
Evidence is problem enough in relation to the mainstream UFO
experience, but far more elusive where belief-groups are concerned.
Amongst the hundreds of belief-group messages I have come across over
the years, I can think of no two that have clearly been in contact
with the same entity, giving the same information. And while some of
the names - like Ashtar and Uriel - do crop up more than once, they
seem to be different from other Ashtars and Uriels, who have never
even met each other, and are unaware each of the others' existence.
Historically, most of these groups have collapsed in failure,
disappointment and dissent. Promises have not been fulfilled,
disasters predicted have not occurred, and nobody has been flown away
by the UFOs as so frequently promised. In every case, all we know of
the intelligence or entity is what its channel says about it. In no
way does that constitute evidence.
The relationship of the communicator's revelations to the developing
scientific knowledge of space is an obscure one. While there has been
the occasional coincidence, exploration has made a mockery of reports
of visits to alien civilizations on the nearby planets. Though the
Aetherius Society covers the contradictions with the cloak of
invisibility it is noticeable that as the space programme has extended
its reach, so the belief groups have extended to parts of the galaxy
well beyond the reach of scientific knowledge!
It must be clear by now that I am less than convinced that the
messages that inspire the UFO belief groups have anything to do with
the broader, witness-based UFO experience.
There are a great many more examples of allegedly non-human
communicators who claim knowledge outside and ahead of our
understanding, and who almost invariably fail; the Theosophical
version of the Great White Brotherhood; the magical visitors of
Eliphas Levi and Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune; the Witch of Endor
or the Delphic Oracle. We could list hundreds of spirit guides and
local deities the world over: Elijah, Mahommed, Joan of Arc, and many
appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary. All have had their messages,
their convictions and, inevitably, their followers. But in no case is
there any significant evidence to suggest that the communicators had
any separate existence from those who said they had been chosen to
transmit those communications.
To put my argument in its simplest form, the UFO belief groups are a
contemporary form of a tradition that has been with us for thousands
of years, in a guise that is attractive and convincing to followers. I
do not think that the channels, the leaders of the groups,
intentionally set out to deceive; they are part of a long-established
cultural phenomenon, that grows and changes with the fears, wishes and
priorities of succeeding generations.
** End **
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison - Manson (1:3623/18)
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Pete Porro
Sub: Re: OIL COMPANIES
Date: 22 Jul 94 14:37:00
--------
EID:bab7 1cf674a0
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Pete Porro to John Powell <=-
Good morning, Pete.
>DH> for their vehicle - why not have two - one gas powered for long
>DH> distance trips ( rental? ) and the electric for city commute ( 50 miles
>DH> per charge )
PP> Hmm, actually the answer would be an electric car, with a Diesel
PP> generator built in. When the batteries started to run low, the engine
PP> would kick in and power the car, while recharging the batteries. When
PP> charged, it would shut off, and you would run on electric battery
PP> power again. You would just have to fill the fuel tank,
Great idea! How about this little refinement:
We could increase the efficiency, and reduce the weight, if we removed the
generator, batteries, and electric motor from the cycle. Just hook the
deisel engine directly up to the wheels of the car!
OK, maybe not directly - use a transmission in between. And we could make
the whole thing even lighter if we used a gas powered engine.
Do you think I should patent?
Take care.
... Ruth made a big mistake when he gave up pitching. (Tris Speaker, 1921)
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Ken Stuckas
To: Marianne Szarka
Sub: Science of simplicityÿ 0
Date: 23 Jul 94 13:01:11
--------
EID:9963 1cf76820
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7c02d511
-=>While eating a book entitled "Science of simplicityÿ 0",
Marianne Szarka mumbled:
MS> "In astroglogy's favour, my work has demonstrated its fundemental
MS> assumptions - the role played by astral influences at the moment of
MS> birth. Moreover, the planetary effect on personality is compatible
MS> with a a certain diagnostic application.
Science is the antidote to the poison of superstition.
... "More hay, Trigger?" "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed!"
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: Shuttle Pad - Jacksonville's Best * Over 13 GIGS * (904) 766-893
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: Gary Steinweg
Sub: Sneezing in sunlight
Date: 23 Jul 94 13:01:11
--------
EID:a463 1cf76820
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7c02d513
-=>While eating a book entitled "Sneezing in sunlight",
Gary Steinweg mumbled:
TE> > Sneezing in the sunlight: I sent a L O N G reply about it;
TE> > did you get it?
TE> No I didn't David. Looks like it didn't make it to
TE> Australia. I'm very interested in your comments. Would you
TE> mind resending it if you still have it?
GS> Sorry to but it, butt ....... If the topic is why does sunlight
GS> cause sneezing, that's easy. It's because sunlight causes dust
GS> particles to swirl around. If you pull the shade down in your
GS> house, the dust stops swirling around in the air and goes away.
GS> Simple, huh?
I think that everyone who exhibits this tendency
would disagree with you. I can do the same thing
at will with any bright light source, like fluorescent
light.
... Goldfish don't like Jell-O.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: Shuttle Pad - Jacksonville's Best * Over 13 GIGS * (904) 766-893
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--------
From: Ken Stuckas
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: skeptical of skeptics
Date: 23 Jul 94 13:01:11
--------
EID:3ca3 1cf76820
MSGID: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7c02d514
-=>While eating a book entitled "Re: skeptical of skeptics",
Rick Moen mumbled:
SD> They must not be swayed by popular culture and fashion, what is
SD> considered to be the right thing at the time. [deletia]
SD> This is what skeptics are about; popular beliefs.
RM> Stewart, when you _recuperate_ from whatever is scrambling the
RM> synapses, you might re-enter this echo and ASK what skeptics are
RM> about. In the meantime, you should eschew TELLING us what
RM> skeptics are about, in as much as you have not the least
RM> particle of a clue on that subject.
Go get 'im, rick! 8*)
... Finish your mail packet! Children are offline in India!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
* Origin: Shuttle Pad - Jacksonville's Best * Over 13 GIGS * (904) 766-893
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Jury Rights
Date: 22 Jul 94 03:01:39
--------
EID:e1f1 1cf61820
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e3098c4
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Jeff Freeman just HAD to mention "Jury Rights"
LJ> FALSE. You have the duty to vote as the combination of the evidence
you
LJ> were presented, the instructions you recieved, and your own personal
LJ> life experiences indicate.
JF> Don't you think that "the instructions you received" should include
JF> ALL of the instructions?
JF> Why would you oppose informing jurors? Obviously there is some
JF> disagreement as to what jurors can and cannot do, so *someone* is
JF> uninformed. [g]
First of all, I NEVER said I was opposed to jurors being informed of
any correct information. So, now THAT'S cleared up.
Now, having served on a good number of juries over the years, both
civil and criminal, I have heard different judges give different
instructions, but they were all essentially similar. Now the
question becomes: if the judge omitted an instruction that would
have allowed us to render a verdict differently than we did with the
so-called "faulty" instructions, don't you think the guy's lawyer
is going to immediately file an appeal based on the jury not receiving
proper instructions? Damn right he would. And so on up the appeals
chain it all goes....
By this time, it would either become a part of the standard set of
instructions the jury receives, just to stop all the appeals based
on "faulty instructions," or there are no such instructions to
give the jury.
This is my OPINION on the subject. Now if you can cite where you think
these instructions may be found, and they check out, I'll be more than
willing to retract. Otherwise plain comman sense will have to do.
... Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: realitycheckBBS : 510*527*1662 (1:161/418.0)
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--------
From: Lars Janqqvist
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: Tesla kooks
Date: 22 Jul 94 03:05:49
--------
EID:7ee4 1cf618a0
MSGID: 1:161/418 2e3098c5
PID: TeleMail 1.51
Setting off a yak stampede Rick Moen just HAD to mention "Re: Tesla kooks"
RM> Yes, it is well known -- even by people who tell the WHOLE truth,
RM> instead of selective, partial truths -- that Tesla invented the AC
RM> induction motor and polyphase AC electical transmission (which makes
RM> long-distance delivery lines practical). It is incorrect to maintain,
RM> as Tesla cultists almost invariably do, that Tesla invented AC power
RM> or the AC electric motor. (He made two key inventions that rendered
RM> them practical.)
Just to jump in as the defender of the ignored... Steinmetz did a
HUGE amount of work on practical AC motors and power transmission.
As in many fields of scientific work, similar inventions appear at
similar times in wide spaced locations. I can't say Steinmetz
invented AC devices, but I do know he did a lot of the theoretical
work on it.
Off the soapbox now....
... Freedom of religion implies the right to freedom from religion.
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: realitycheckBBS : 510*527*1662 (1:161/418.0)
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--------
From: Matt Greenbaum
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Holocaust Denial
Date: 24 Jul 94 19:58:06
--------
EID:c78e 1cf89f40
MSGID: 1:396/17.0 2e331c2e
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 a21c4f8d
Enjoyed your dialogue about the Holocaust deniers. Many organizations are
sen
ding people from the United States to areas in Europe that were victimized
by
Hitler in World War II, so that people with no knowledge about the Holocaust
c
an see first hand what has occurred.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: New Orleans P.C. Club (1:396/17)
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--------
From: John Terry
To: Laurie Hunter
Sub: ghosts
Date: 19 Jul 94 08:39:54
--------
EID:75F3 86E40000
I hope you don't mind my budding-in on your conversation on ghosts but I
would be interested to hear of any experiences you have had.
A number of years ago I used a Ouija board extensively with very
suprising results... Have you ever used one?
--- WM v2.03/92-0261
* Origin: Electro-Skeptic BBS Tampa FL 14.4 813-831-5706 (1:377/33)
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: Ed Blackman
Sub: It's a MIRACLE!
Date: 19 Jul 94 07:16:38
--------
EID:cb1f 1cf33a00
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 440b4d78
REPLY: 1:3634/2.0 2e26239b
In a msg to David Bloomberg on , Ed Blackman of 1:3634/2 writes:
DB> I suppose we could hold out hope for such inquiry, but I think
DB> it would only be false hope. Again, as stated by the _Tribune_,
DB> "the lack of tests has not stopped thousands from streaming into
DB> the Cicero church over the last two weeks to behold the
DB> 'miracle' for themselves."
DB> I realize that many are eager to believe in miracles, but
DB> wouldn't it seem better for _them_ to at least make sure it's
DB> authentic?
EB> I believe you answered that question in the previous paragraph. If
the
EB> "crying painting" turns out to be the result of a leaky pipe in the
wall
EB> behind the painting or another mundane event, all those thousands of
EB> people would stop coming. It's much safer to do a cursory inspection
EB> of the painting and declare it a "miracle".
Yup. Not quite a lie in the name of "God", but darned close...
EB> And think about the precedent it would set. If scientists can debunk
EB> one apparent miracle, why not others?
They already have debunked scores of apparent miracles (such as previous
cryin
g icons).
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: The Eyes That Spoke
Date: 19 Jul 94 22:19:02
--------
EID:4c2d 1cf3b260
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 4413919b
The following is an article from the July '94 (Vol. 2, #7) issue of The
REALL
News. It may be reprinted by other skeptics organizations as long as proper
c
redit is given. REALL also requests that you please send a copy of any
public
ation that reprints one of our articles for our files. This article may
also
be cross-posted onto other appropriate conferences.
This article represents the opinions of its author, and does not necessarily
represent the opinions of REALL or its officers.
=============================================================================
The Eyes That Spoke
by Martin Kottmeyer
In his final book, _Aliens From Space_, Donald Keyhoe
briefly recounted his involvement in starting the
investigation of Barney and Betty Hill that eventually led
to John Fuller's publication of _The Interrupted Journey_,
the first major work of the alien abduction mythos. Keyhoe
was mystified more than anything else by the hideous faces
of the aliens. The heads were oddly shaped with no ears and
compressed noses and mouths. Worst of all were long slanting
eyes which extended along the side of the head creating a
sinister look. "What caused the subconscious minds of these
two people to create these pictures from their imaginations
has never been fully explained." [1]
Keyhoe could not accept the case 100%, he later admitted
in a 1975 interview, but he did not reject it either. As
mysteries go, Keyhoe's question seemed safely rhetorical.
Who knows why anyone dreams of one monster and not another?
How would anyone even begin to investigate such a problem?
What could not have been foreseen was how serendipity
might step in to break this minor mystery. The local PBS
station a few years ago decided to rerun the old TV series
_The Outer Limits_. It was one of the most visually amazing
programs of my youth, and I eagerly tuned in to experience
once more such sights as the horrifying Zanti misfits, the
bee girl, moonstone, Borderland's ionic gale, the
down-shifting time machine of "Controlled Experiment," and
David McCallum's evolution into a mega-brain.
It was during the showing of the episode "The Bellero
Shield" that I felt the uncanny frisson of deja vu. The eyes
of the alien were unusually long and wrapped around the side
of the face. It quickly hit me these eyes were just like the
wraparound eyes that were drawn in _The Interrupted Journey_
and the later more detailed drawing the Hills did in
collaboration with the artist David Baker.[2] Though I
couldn't articulate it at that instant, there were other
similarities which had contributed to the sense of a close
relationship: no ears, no hair, no nose, and a cranium
shaped like a bullet tilted backwards 45 degrees. I was
excited by the possibility of a match because I was
reasonably sure there were few or no other examples of
aliens with wraparound eyes in science fiction cinema.
Moments later however my excitement became subdued. It
dawned on me that _The Outer Limits_ was a series of the
mid-Sixties and the Hill case dated to the early Sixties--
1961 or 1962. "The Bellero Shield" couldn't have been an
influence. Still, the book came out in 1966. Could the lag
be significant?
After the program ended, I dug into my library for a
round of late night research. "The Bellero Shield" aired
February 10, 1964. The Hill's UFO encounter happened in the
morning of September 20, 1961. That probably should have
killed the idea of any kind of influence, but the
resemblance was just so compelling I couldn't shake the
feeling there had to be a relationship. I reread _The
Interrupted Journey_. To my delight I discovered there was
no mention of wraparound eyes in the earliest account.
Betty's dreams, written down a matter of days after the UFO
sighting, mention men with Jimmy Durante noses, dark or
black hair and eyes and a relaxed human appearance that she
said was "not frightening." This is all quite different from
the final product. The changes emerge in the hypnotic
regression with Dr. Simon. The most salient issue was to
know when the wraparound eyes were first described. That
turned out to be during a hypnosis session involving Barney
dated February 22, 1964. Not only did "The Bellero Shield"
precede Barney's first mention of wraparound eyes, it did by
only 12 days! I was immensely pleased.
cont...
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
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--------
From: David Bloomberg
To: All
Sub: Eyes That Spoke, 2/2
Date: 19 Jul 94 22:20:30
--------
EID:b659 1cf3b280
MSGID: 1:2430/2112 44139325
cont...
I ordered the script of the show next. My thoughts were
so distracted I realized I had missed the dialogue. This
yielded additional evidence for the relationship. Judith,
played by Sally Kellerman, is conversing with the Bifrost
alien and asks it if it can read her mind. It answers, "No,
I cannot read your mind. I cannot even understand your
language. I analyze your eyes. In all the universes, in all
the unities beyond all the universes, all who have eyes,
have eyes that speak..." Judith, intrigued, asks how it
speaks her language. It elaborates, I learn each word just
before I speak it. Your eyes teach me." [3]
In saying all eyes speak, the Bifrost alien is conveying
a truth and simultaneously dodging the human/alien language
barrier problem by a unique dab of poetic license.
In the same hypnosis session in which Barney drew the
wraparound eyes, there is this exercise in confusion: Yes.
They won't talk to me. Only the eyes are talking to me.
I-I-I-I don't understand that. Oh--the eyes don't have a
body. They're just eyes..." [4] Barney's confusion about the
talking eyes is one most viewers probably shared over the
writer's gimmick employed by the episode's creators. The
notion shared by both texts that eyes can talk defies
dismissal via appeal to commonness or coincidence. By any
measure, the case for influence here is not just
satisfactory, it is exemplary. At least one abduction re
searcher has granted this point. [5]
The discovery of this pseudomemory will not shock
hypnosis experts. They have long been aware of the danger on
confabulation in regression work. There was no reason to
expect _The Interrupted Journey's_ narrative to be immune
from such contamination. Belatedly, Keyhoe's question thus
finds itself answered with the mundane corollary that Barney
had watched the science fiction/horror series _The Outer
Limits_ shortly before his subconscious was called upon to
imagine what a scary alien ought to look like. Betty's dream
aliens were too normal to justify the fear he displayed
during the original UFO experience.
Barney's confabulation has other interesting
repercussions. As Thomas E. Bullard has pointed out,
"wraparound eyes" is a term that has become common in the
abduction literature. [6] Case after case can be pointed to
of people describing alien abductors with eyes that wrap,
curl, or taper around the head. Some that UFO buffs may
recognize include: Carol Wayne Watts, 1967; "Canadian Rock
Band Abducted," 1971; David Delmundo's 1972 contact with the
turban-sporting Ohneshto; the 1977 Langenargen abduction (a
major German case); the Andreasson Affair; Harrison Bailey;
South Dakota Connection (MUFON, March 1983); Paris Colorado;
the Mirassol abductions; "Jennifer"; Tom Holloway, D.D.S.
(in Boylan, 1994). [7] Others exist, but this will suffice
to indicate the influential nature of the Hill case on the
history of the imagery of abduction experiences. Before the
Hills, wraparound eyes seem largely, probably totally,
absent in the UFO literature. Cinematic aliens sporting
wraparound eyes are similarly largely absent. But not
totally. I eventually discovered one other instance. It is
an unnamed mutant in the film _Evil Brain from Outer Space_,
a Japanese film imported in 1964. Interestingly, one of the
heads of Projects Unlimited which provided the monsters for
_The Outer Limits_ was named Wah Ming Chang. He was a
talented sculptor and designed most of the head sculpts for
the series. This may hint at cultural roots in Eastern myth
or kabuki theatre, but I'm not prepared to follow the trail
the distance to prove it.
The motif of the speaking eyes did not share in the
popularity of the wraparound eyes. There is one example in
Edith Fiore's _Encounters_. The abductee named Victoria
describes aliens communicating by simply looking at each
other. It is tempting to speculate that the alien bonding
practices involving staring described in _Secret Life_ are
descended from Barney's talking eyes, but there are many
complicating factors such as strong hints of _Star Trek's_
Vulcan mind meld and a rich cluster of psychological
symbolisms in staring eyes, such as love, intimacy,
supervision, contempt, and predators, that seem more
rewarding avenues of interpretation. The paucity of speaking
eyes probably reflects the poor nature of verbal memory
compared to visual memory. The confusing nature of the idea
of talking eyes probably doesn't help. It may also be that
hideous eyes have a defining role in creating an
appropriately paranoia-inspiring iconography. As Keyhoe
apparently sensed, they are more believably alien. The eyes
say Them.
To the psychosocial theorist, the eyes whisper us.
Notes
1. Keyhoe, Donald. _Aliens from Space_. Doubleday, 1973,
pp. 243-5.
2. "New Drawings of Hill Abductors," _UFO Investigator_
(April 1972), pp. 3-4.
3. Scene 24
4. Fuller, John. _The Interrupted Journey_. Dell, 1966, p.
124.
5. Bullard, Thomas E. "Folkloric Dimensions of the UFO
Phenomenon," _Journal of UFO Studies_ #3, 1991, p. 40.
6. Bullard, Thomas E. _UFO Abductions: The Measure of a
Mystery_ FFUFOR. 1987, p. 243.
7. Kimery, Tony L. "Carroll Wayne Watts - Contactee,
Hoaxer of Innocent Bystander," _Official UFO_, 1, #11,
October 1976, p. 33.
FSR 29, #3
Stevens, Wendelle. _UFO Contact from Undersea_. Stevens,
1982, p. 148.
Schneider, Adolf & Illobrand von Ludwiger. "Brilliantly
Shining Objects and Strange Figures in Langenargen" in
_Interdisciplinary UFO Research_, MUFON-CES Report
#1, 1993, p. 142.
_Andreasson Affair_, p. 25.
Rogo, p. 130
_MUFON Journal_. March 1983, p. 3.
_UFO Contact from the Reticulum Update_, p. 341.
_UFO Abduction at Mirassol_, p. 298.
_J. of UFO Studies_ #3 , 1991, p. 100.
Boylan, Richard J. & Lee K. _Close Extraterrestrial
Encounters_. Wildflower, 1994, p. 99.
--- msgedsq 2.0.5
* Origin: The more one knows, the less one believes. (1:2430/2112)
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--------
From: Adrian Eng
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: !
Date: 19 Jul 94 18:43:41
--------
EID:e1c2 1cf39560
MSGID: 3:690/245.0 2e2c571e
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 3689
Hiya Jeff
-=> On 16 Jul 94 12:23:18, Jeff Freeman smirked and said to Adrian Eng
<=-
AE> JM> I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy]
AE> Thank you =) What's the word in the square brackets for???
JF> Hold your monitor up to a mirror.
more like READ IT BACKWARDS! =) Putting it on a mirror would make it
laterally inverted!
L8r,
AdEs 25/53
... I figured out why the world is a such Mess: God must be using Windows
--- Fastecho 1.41+ (Byteline)
* Origin: The Byteline BBS - Perth, WA - Multiline (09)497 4888 (3:690/245)
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--------
From: Adrian Eng
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Subliminal Messages on Songs
Date: 19 Jul 94 18:43:47
--------
EID:ea75 1cf39560
MSGID: 3:690/245.0 2e2c5727
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.41/g 3689
Hiya Tad
-=> On 13 Jul 94 19:49:09, Tad Cook smirked and said to Adrian Eng <=-
AE> Anyone here know about subliminal messages on songs nowadays?
TC> Its a myth. There may be messages that you can hear when
TC> playing the song backwards, but there is NO EVIDENCE that
TC> this somehoe enters your consiousness and influences you.
it's not the concious mind I'm worried about.. it's the SUB-concious mind
I'm worried about! Your sub-concious never forgets!
AE> Subliminal message have been around us for ages. Coca Cola got sued
AE> BAD for having 1/12 frame in every second flash the coke sign
AE> sublimina-ing implanting coke in our subconcious. Guess why!
TC> Not true. Your talking about the DRINK COKE-EAT POPCORN
TC> experiment done in a movie house in the 1950s. It didn't
TC> work.
It seemed to work the first time but not the second
AE> Also.. turning to music... heavy metal have been found to contain
AE> subliminal messages in them as well.. I myself am not a big heavy metal
AE> fan so I get my info from what others say. There was a Guns and Roses
AE> song.. a part where the "singers" just utter some rubbish BUT if played
AE> backwards it says "Take Marijuna" and things of similiar ideas.
TC> But there is NO EVIDENCE that it DOES anything.
Think of it this way... why do we have physcologist around? Their job is
to listen to your problems and hopefully find something in your past. He
looks is your Sub-concious mind as it is the one controlling your life.
Once
the problem is located and resolved, your problem is long gone.
Like a tramatic event.. phobias.. they all originate from the sub-concious
mind.
AdEz 25/53
TC> ... Catch the Blue Wave!
TC> -!- Fmail 0.98+/RA 2.01+
TC> ! Origin: Boone's Farm, Seattle, WA 206-282-2851 (1:343/124)
... Pedestrian: The most approachable chap in the world.
--- Fastecho 1.41+ (Byteline)
* Origin: The Byteline BBS - Perth, WA - Multiline (09)497 4888 (3:690/245)
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--------
From: George Donnellan
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: HISTORICAL SCEPTICISM
Date: 16 Jul 94 17:51:16
--------
EID:62b5 1cf08e60
> rm> Maybe you could accuse me of murder, or bestiality,
> rm> or child molestation. That would be a real hoot.
>
> gd> Whatever turns you on.
>
> Well, while I can't speak for Rick, I would have to say that I'm all
> for the afore mentioned bestiality. 'Which is kind of ammusing
> inasmuch as I am a vegetarian, huh?
Perhaps you and Rick could get together then. Sounds like youre made for
eac
h other.
geo.
--- TMail v1.31.5
* Origin: MultiLine 40+Lines 43 CDRoms & Internet +619 370-3333 (3:690/254)
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--------
From: Mea Hewitt
To: David Bloomberg
Sub: SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES O
Date: 16 Jul 94 23:02:57
--------
EID:0ab3 1cf0b840
DB> I know that there is no evidence that "subliminal messages" actually
DB> DO anything.
I beg to differ.
Years ago I read of a Soviet experimental school that used so called
subliminal messagimg as a teaching method.
Apparently the instigator of this method discovered its potential
accidentally while studying altered states of awareness. His name was
Doctor Georgi Luzonov.
I went to Sofia, Bulgaria, to the Institute of Suggestopedia.
Studying at the Institute were educators from America, Canada and West
Germany.
The same methods are used by language schools here now.
I used it to improve my marks when studying as a mature age student.
Basically, the lesson is placed on a tape and played with a music tape
played over it. The student relaxes and listens to the music. Generally
the taped words are not noticeable. I had thought that one needed to be
meditating (alpha brain wave patterns ). Dr. Luzonov said only to be
relaxed was sufficient.
mea
... Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Mea Hewitt
To: Rick Moen
Sub: THE FLOOD
Date: 17 Jul 94 18:37:50
--------
EID:73ce 1cf194a0
MH> The latter believed in Divine intervention in the natural
MH> catastrophies.
RM> Actually, no. This latter bit is not true. 19th C. catastrophism
RM> did not entail divine intervention. It simply assumed relatively (on
RM> geological/biological scales) sudden development of life and
Rick, this is a straight quote from Encyclopeadia Britannica. The set
is about ten years old. I would suggest you look it up.
RM> Actually, this view had largely vanished in the scientific community
RM> by the time of Darwin's travels (1830s), because the quantity of water
RM> involved was clearly impossible over that area, and evidence for it
RM> occuring was lacking. There was plenty of evidence for _local_
RM> flooding at _different_ times, but not for one widespread one.
I am not plumping for a world wide flood.
I am saying that there was a flood over Asia Minor.
Then I say that legends of flooding in other areas at around the same
time are borne out by Cuvier in the Paris Basin,William Buckland after
Darwin.and a whole heap of other geologists and paleontologists.
Most of the Old Testament is a History and many of these stories are
being proved to be factual.
No, I do not believe the one about a snake in an apple tree.
If I am able to accept Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (and
he wasn't there at the time ) why not Job or Isaiah or Jeremiah, when they
were there?
mea
... Evolution is Gods' way of issuing upgrades!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: David Macdonald
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Re: Holocaust Denial
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:25:14
--------
EID:42be 1cf37b20
MSGID: 1:232/310 1008fc8a
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Re: Holocaust Denial
I ahve not yet gotten to the Wilcox and George book, but I intend to do
so. Also of interest are Gill Seidel, The holocaust Denial: Antisemitism,
Racism and the new Right (Leeds, 1986); Frank P. Mint, The Liberty Lobby
and
the American Right, and David H. Bennett, The Party of Fear (Chapel Hill,
U
of N. Carolina Press, 1988). Wild stuff--about an amazingly powerful and
crazed group.
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: David Macdonald
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: 1:125/27 Holographic
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:25:15
--------
EID:54a4 1cf37b20
MSGID: 1:232/310 1009b099
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: 1:125/27 Holographic
I like it, I like it!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: David Macdonald
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:25:16
--------
EID:4e80 1cf37b20
MSGID: 1:232/310 100543f7
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Remarkable that, that the fellow claims to know what King David looked
like, since we have absolutely no contemporary sources whatsoever that even
mention David ( or Moses, or the Judges, or Saul, or Solomon, etc.), much
less give us detailed descriptions of complexions!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: David Macdonald
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Free Willy
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:25:18
--------
EID:70b4 1cf37b20
MSGID: 1:232/310 1005745a
PID: VFIDO 6.10.03
Re: Free Willy
If you can get a copy of that video, I'd also be willing to pay for a
copy. How great--what fools these mortals be!
--- VFIDO 6.10.03
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Pete Porro
Sub: RANA NEWSLETTER UPDATED
Date: 19 Jul 94 18:55:00
--------
EID:82cb 1cf396e0
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 6412cf9d
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> Rana Newsletter V.1 #1 July 1994 Release
> Rana Speaks - Warning Ranidae Invasion
Thank you for bringing us the warning. I was wondering if you were aware
of th
e disinformation campaign perpetrated by one James Ranidy, who claims the
whol
e invasion story is a hoax?
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Don Allen
Sub: Wierd Assassinations
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:01:00
--------
EID:5f74 1cf39820
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 6412cf9e
REPLY: 1:3623/18@fidonet.org 62884795
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
> * Forwarded from "I_UFO"
> * Originally by Sandy Doonan
> * Originally to Walter Bartoo
> * Originally dated 11 Jul 1994, 17:28
>>>>> Hmmm....time will tell won't it?
> wb> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real
> wb> count down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
> You have your date off by a year. 1998 is when Henry Kissinger
> will make his historic announcements to the world, backed up by
> the military might of the United Nations. The steps required to
> barcode everyone in the world are already in place and _that_
Splendid! More raw material for Kortron.txt. Next step, an indexing system
so
i can make Kortron.dbf :)
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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From: Dr Pepper
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: MARS AND EVOLUTION
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:08:00
--------
EID:6904 1cf39900
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 6412cf9f
REPLY: 1:161/418 2e275fe0
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
>> Which brings up another classic. Girl bartender says to me she
>> doesn't like Chinese food because she didn't like what they did
>> in WWII and the bombing of pearl harbor. I said that was the
>> Japanese not the Chinese! She says oh Japanese, Chinese whats
>> the difference. (this is the truth, I'm not making this up) I
>> said Oh OK, Irish or Jewish, whats the difference!
> DP> Maybe none. When i was in high school i knew a jew with a creamy
> DP> freckled complexion, green eyes, and long flowing red hair who told
me
> DP> that the jews had never intermarried!
> Dr. Gene Scott, whose satellite signal might be receivable from
> all points
> in Fidoland, claims (citing some book I never bothered to write
> down the
> title of) that the ancient Hebrews were red-haired and freckled;
> specifically, King David looked a lot like an Irishman.
Gene Scott is my favorite gonzo preacher, the only christian leader i've
ever
heard say that God could change his mind, do something he hadn't known he
was
going to do, or doublecross himself.
But as for the look of the ancient hebrews, that's just plain old british
isra
elism. He's also into pyramidology and likes to talk about the true meaning
of
astrology and reincarnation.
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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From: Dr Pepper
To: John Powell
Sub: Stuff
Date: 19 Jul 94 19:26:00
--------
EID:2491 1cf39b40
TID: IMAIL 1.51/b+ PK7-B
MSGID: 1:15/41@FidoNet 6412cfa1
PID: FM 2.3.mL.b2 AE00006F
On 17 Jul 94 12:46:46, you wrote to David Bloomberg about "Stuff".
> JP> - Director Special Projects
> DB> Oooooh, can I have it? ;-)
> Sure, if you really want it . Here's how it works: I
> pick a
> special project, more or less outline what/why/how, you do most
> but not
> necessarily all of the grunt work delegating to volunteers as
> you can,
> you/me (and others) finalize a report. Something like 2 to 4
> projects a
> year depending on how it goes.
> I'm not interested in rehashing old stuff or in assembling FAQ-
> like
> material. I also want to mostly avoid UFO stuff whenever
> possible. (In
> case folks haven't figured it out yet the so-called UFO
> Phenomenon is
> finished, over, done...)
> I won't tell you what the first project is but here's a hint:
> It
> happenned rather recently and has never been researched or
> investigated.
I have a project for you: Melanoma.
It's not uncommon but it is seldom fatal.
It mainly affect light skinned people.
It normally starts on the face or other areas constantly exposed to sunlight.
It normally stays localized.
Yet Bob Marley, a negro, got one on the bottom of his foot that spread to
his
brain and ate it.
Bob Marley often put political themes in his music. Yet i haven't heard
a peep
about him from the conspiracy industry, why not?
10 2
DR PEPPER
4
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--------
From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: EVOLUTION
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:27:00
--------
EID:1dcf 1cf37360
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
-=> Quoting Jeff Freeman to Fredric Rice <=-
JF> On (11 Jul 94) Fredric Rice wrote to Pete Porro...
FR> When a subset of a species becomes sexually isolated from another
FR> subset (such as by rising waters or by plate tectonics and volcanic
FR> activity) the allele frequency of an attribute is likely to increase
FR> as the size of the gene pool decreases. Eventually, when the species
FR> can not successfully mate with its ancestors, it is a new species.
JF> Question: A Horse and Donkey can mate and the offspring is a Mule --
JF> does this indicate that the Horse and Donkey are of the same species?
JF> What is to be implied from the fact that the Mule is almost always
JF> sterile? I am assuming that the Horse and Donkey are nearly separate
JF> species, but not quite. No?
The common definition of species requires that the organisms in question
be
completely interfertile. Which means that the offspring must be viable,
and fertile themselves. Since mules are sterile, horses and donkeys are
of different species.
However - there are still some grey areas. Some species (like lake trout
and brook trout) can interbreed, and the offspring are fertile, but much
less fertile than the parents. Usually, it is suggested that the
offspring have to have unreduced fertility for the parents to be considered
the same species.
Some writers suggest that, in addition, even if the offspring are
completely fertile, the parents must interbreed in nature to be considered
of the same species. Artificial insemination (or hand pollination), or
even breeding under artificial conditions in captivity isn't good enough.
If the two populations are really just subspecies of one species, then when
they meet in nature, they should freely interbreed, and give rise to a
hybrid population that contains all grades of intermediates.
JF> Also, what would you make of this:
JF> Animals E and H can breed.
JF> Animals H and O can breed.
JF> Animals O and E cannot.
JF> Is that even POSSIBLE?
Check out the herring gull. There are more than three varieties but other
than that, exactly this situation exists. Apparently, the species radiated
around the polar regions after the last ice age, giving rise to several
subspecies that ring the norhtern hemisphere. Going in the direction that
they migrated, each subspecies interbreeds with its neighbors. But, by
the
time they got back to where they started from, they had changed enough that
they don't interbreed with the original stock.
JF> Also, lets say, O can breed with G, B, and R; but E and H cannot.
JF> Also G, B and R cannot breed with one-another (only with O or with
JF> themselves, I mean -- G can breed with G, etc.).
This is getting confusing. Do you have a specific example in mind?
JF> I'll assume that if part 1 isn't possible that neither is part two --
JF> but are these, then, separate species?
I think that our idea of "species" as little watertight genetic
compartments that cannot leak into each other is a bit artificial. By and
large, that's the way things are, but, there is a lot of grey in the
boundary between "varieties" and "species". However you define those
terms, there are specific examples that are difficult to classify. Which
tells me that the concept of species is one that man likes, but that nature
didn't necessarily follow.
I'll be interested in how Fred responds to this.
Take care.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Mcfarlane
To: Don Allen
Sub: Jupiter-Crash
Date: 18 Jul 94 21:36:00
--------
EID:4030 1cf2ac80
TID: ISTGoldTOSS v00.00.24 (Beta 7.10)
DA> I predict the comet will miss Jupiter! Any takers?
So, what's your opinion on the stock market?
Take care.
... Doubt is the key to knowledge. - Persian Proverb
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,ON USR/DS/OS2 Node 1 (1:222/10.0)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Re: Bodily molecule recycl
Date: 18 Jul 94 08:35:11
--------
EID:799b 1cf24460
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326ce1b
RJ>RM> Playing devil's advocate is playing devil's advocate.
RJ>RM> Skepticism is critical inquiry into testable fringe-science
RJ>RM> claims of fact.
RJ> To forward critical inquiry, mustn't one advance a negative
RJ> position in light of presented evidence until proof or logic
RJ> creates a valid construct?
No. I can't imagine why.
RJ> Your reply is tautological.
I don't see that.
RJ> A short answer like yes on one, no on two, or vice-versa
RJ> would've sufficed for my initial question. Why cross-refer me? Or
RJ> are you just non-informing me?
In order to avoid _wasting echo bandwidth_ on an inquiry far better
answered by reference to Jackson's echo guidelines or to the back
cover of _Skeptical Inquirer_. Also because of my intuition that
_most_ people who have such questions have little interest in the
topic of this echo, and just like to idly philosophise -- though I
could be wrong.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
* Origin: Bay Area Skeptics: Doubt on the Prowl Since '82 (1:125/27)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Robert Jackson
Sub: Re: Blackmore, 2/2
Date: 18 Jul 94 08:39:50
--------
EID:bbaf 1cf244e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326cf1b
RJ>RM> "You" can do anything "your" little heart desires. However,
RJ>RM> skepticism has no obvious connection with _ideas_ being "valid
RJ>RM> or invalid" (whatever that means), nor with "proof" (whatever
RJ>RM>you mean by that). Skeptics are fundamentally concerned with
RJ>RM>particular claims of fringe-science fact. Get it?
RJ>
RJ> So, if someone says they can make cold fusion with a Mason jar,
RJ> a roll of speaker wire, two paper clips, and some duct tape, a
RJ> skeptic is just interested in seeing such an experiment done?
Among other things, if it's a serious allegations, yes.
RJ> Not whether fusion CAN be achieved, or is a sham, but just that
RJ> they see it?
How do you think that fact might otherwise be demonstrated? Some sort
of magic afflatus, perhaps?
RJ> Skepticism is solely the activity of observation, then?
NO. Not "solely". Kindly use your brain.
RJ> See, I got a non-answer when I asked before.
No. It was not a "non-answer". It was a reference to a source that
would not waste the echo's time covering what has been gone over ad
nauseum in the past.
RJ> Therefore, might I assume that skepticism may be treated as an
RJ> auxiliary to a philosophy such as science, much like epistemology is
RJ> auxiliary to metaphysics?
If you're an idiot, you might assume that, yes.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Re: I_ufo
Date: 18 Jul 94 08:42:26
--------
EID:c1a2 1cf24540
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d01b
JH> Once again, the state of play in I_UFO has nothing to do with what
JH> we want to discuss here. Apart from this echo being more open
JH> minded and a welcome refuge from their moderating there is nothing
JH> more to be said. Further discussion of their antics are a waste of
JH> bandwidth.
JH>
JH> We return to our normally scheduled programming.
Jackson, there is a considerable lag between here and Australia. I
hope you're seeing about now my listing of what I think _is_ of
interest in such posts -- when present in reasonable numbers. Please
consider my views on that matter.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Steve Crawford
To: Tad Cook
Sub: Oil Companies
Date: 18 Jul 94 08:41:00
--------
EID:3880 1cf24520
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d11b
TC>That effect is alleged to occur only in nicad batteries, but
>in fact the memory effect is a myth. Its a widely believed
>myth though.
That's not what I read. Some articles I read a few years ago
mentioned research into modifications of the batteries and into
new charging techniques to reduce the memory effect. Supposedly
the effect is related to crystal fibers forming in the
electrolyte. My personal experience with trying different
charging patterns with a set of battery packs seems to confirm
that nicads work well when used heavily (ie. fully charged then
fully discharged). They are great for photoflash packs, cordless
drills and similar applications where you can use a pack fully
and then drop in a fresh pack and recharge your spare; not as
good in things like flashlights that are used for a couple of
minutes then stuck back into the charger. They also have a lousy
shelf life (a couple of months or less) between charges.
I recently read an article mentioning that the nickel metal
hydride batteries also have a little bit of a memory effect but
not nearly as pronounced as with nicads.
Shorted nicads (check for 0 volts first then check for 0 ohms
across the cell) can sometimes be rejuvenated with a large brief
jolt of current like a quick tap with a good size auto battery
charger. The 50 amp pulse blows the short and the battery will
work in a pinch but it's life between charges will probably be
pretty short and it will probably fail again before too long.
Sealed lead-acid cells like the Gates D and X cells are only a
few percent larger and heavier than nicads and do not have a
memory effect. Lead-acid batteries, however, do not seem to like
being left discharged for a long period. On the other hand, the
Gates cells are made with very pure chemicals to reduce internal
leakage (electrical leakage) and they will supposedly lose only
half of a full charge in 10 years. Lead-acid are favorites in
constant charge situations like alarm backup and UPS.
I haven't heard about characteristics of the new rechargeable
lithium batteries but they'd better be pretty good since spares
for the T3400 subnote at work would run something like $350 each.
Not economically viable as a source for cars and such.
-Steve
* SLMR 2.1a * Christ died for our sins, let's not disappoint Him.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Mark Bellis
Sub: Re: Basis
Date: 18 Jul 94 23:55:26
--------
EID:c6f6 1cf2bee0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d21b
MB> What exactly is BASIS, and how do I subscribe?
BASIS is the "Bay Area Skeptics Information Sheet", a monthly
newsletter published by, naturally enough, Bay Area Skeptics. A
12-issue subscription costs $18, which you can send to BAY AREA
SKEPTICS, 17723 Buti Park Court, Castro Valley, CA 94546.
MB> Also, what do the little numbers by the Dr Pepper sign mean? I have
MB> always wondered.
We could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you. ;->
Cheers,
Rick Moen
Member, Board of Directors
Bay Area Skeptics
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Re: Conference
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:13:19
--------
EID:9876 1cf201a0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d31b
JF>Have there been any new fringe science claims? Any old ones to
JF>rehash... again.
There's seldom a totally new claim -- but there's always a new angle.
;-> I've been a bit out of circulation, because of a heavy work
schedule, unfortunately. Fringe-ish medical claims based on ancient
Ayurvedic texts from India seem to be in vogue. Claims of satanic
conspiracies are all over the place. (There's a suspicious similarity
between many claims of satanic ritual abuse, child molestation, and UFO
abduction, especially when discovered by "therapists" in the form of
allegedly repressed childhood memories.) UFO abduction claims are big
stuff. "Facilitated communication" claims (especially with severely
retarded or autistic subjects) are big. Und so weider. . . .
JF>I still think there's something to that oat bran = less cholesterol
JF>thing.
Well, I've never heard of a horse dying of clogged arteries. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Re: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:17:10
--------
EID:024b 1cf20220
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d41b
JF> That was the most instructive thing I've read to date. Especially
JF> the way you so informatively explained the terms being used, such
JF> as: [deletia]
JF> Makes me wanna take Debate 101.
Well, you might be interested in dialing up this board (node 1:125/27,
415-572-0359), and file requesting or downloading LOGIC.FAQ and
FALLACY.TXT. You'd probably find them interesting. I think I noticed
that you run a point system, and my node doesn't mind points as calling
systems, at all, if you want to file request.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Re: Evolution
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:20:27
--------
EID:86a1 1cf20280
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d51b
JF>Question: A Horse and Donkey can mate and the offspring is a Mule --
JF>does this indicate that the Horse and Donkey are of the same species?
JF>What is to be implied from the fact that the Mule is almost always
JF>sterile? I am assuming that the Horse and Donkey are nearly separate
JF>species, but not quite. No?
You probably already know the answer, really: Conceptually, a species
is all the animals that in theory could breed with one another and
produce _fertile_ offspring. I've never heard of a fertile mule, but
they must be so rare that there's about zero chance of a new species
being perpetuated by breeding of the few exceptions, if any.
Cheers,
Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Andy Voelkle
Sub: Re: Exogenesis
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:31:15
--------
EID:1e37 1cf203e0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d61b
AV>A good friend of mine is a scientist who thinks that human life on
AV>Earth may have had its origins outside the Earth. It's true that
AV>amino acids have been found in meteorite fragments, and that complex
AV>organic molecules have been detected between the stars.
AV>
AV>I wonder if there is anything to "exogenesis"?
Ah yes, the "panspermia" hypothesis -- or its close cousin.
Sure, that could well have happened. Of course, it would have had to
have been a VERY long time ago -- at a minimum 3.1 thousand million
years ago, which is how old the oldest known remains of bacteria and
blue-green algae are.
That is, unless you're willing to hypothesise that life had multiple
points of origin, that some life forms came in on this comet, some on
that comet, and some were "home-brewed" right on Terra Firma. This
is less likely, since there don't seem to be any obvious sudden breaks
in relationships between organisms. All apparently-related organisms
have a great deal of their structure and chemistry in common.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: ...
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:33:25
--------
EID:8b14 1cf20420
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d71b
FR> This message has been sent to you for good luck. The original is in
FR> New England. It has been sent around the world nine times. . . .
The Fido Phool will get you for that, Fred.
;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
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From: Rick Moen
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: Re: 1:125/27 holograph
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:40:43
--------
EID:4695 1cf20500
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d81b
DC>In other words, there are no solipsists in foxholes?
DC>
DC>Hey, that makes a good tag!
DC>
DC>... There are no solipsists in foxholes.
Ooh, I _like_ that. It'd make a good graffito for the Philosophy
Department bathroom wall. ;->
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: Re: Mars and evolution
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:49:03
--------
EID:29ef 1cf20620
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326d91b
DC>DP> Maybe none. When I was in high school I knew a Jew with a creamy
DC>DP> freckled complexion, green eyes, and long flowing red hair who
DC>DP> told me that the Jews had never intermarried!
DC>
DC> Dr. Gene Scott, whose satellite signal might be receivable from all
DC> points in Fidoland, claims (citing some book I never bothered to
DC> write down the title of) that the ancient Hebrews were red-haired
DC> and freckled; specifically, King David looked a lot like an
DC> Irishman.
According to the description in the Bible, he _did_ -- and there are
some good reasons (I don't remember, exactly) to suppose that there
were _relatively_ many red-headed Israelites. Some nationalities
do indeed seem to have a relatively high percentage, such as the
various Celts, Jews, and Afghanis. I have no idea why.
However, there's a wonderful collage of photos from Jewish communities
all over the world, at the Diaspora Museum in Ramat Gan, Israel -- and
it's perfectly apparent that (of course) Jews have had plenty of
intermarriage.
Cheers,
Rick M.
moen@blyth.com
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Rick Moen
To: Dave Campbell
Sub: Re: Historical scepticism
Date: 18 Jul 94 00:54:36
--------
EID:354c 1cf206c0
MSGID: 1:125/27 f326da1b
DC>Quoting message
DC>From: Dr Pepper
DC> To: Rick Moen
DC> Re: Historical scepticism
DC>Date: 17 Jun 94 11:29:00
DC>
DC> DP> Bad logic. To be a victim, or the relatives of victims, does not
DC>stop DP> you from being a victimizer.
DC>
DC>Yup. Just ask the Palestinians.
Amazing that you should post this further, SEVERELY off-topic
digression A FULL MONTH after I responded to Dr Pepper, pointing out
that he'd totally misunderstood my post (to which he had purported
to respond).
Are you ACTUALLY trying to start some dumb, ignorant, moralising
discussion of POLITICS on the Skeptic echo, or is there just a full
moon tonight, or what?
-- Rick M.
--- MsgToss 2.0d (beta)
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From: Pete Porro
To: Rick Moen
Sub: Re: EVOLUTION
Date: 19 Jul 94 13:20:12
--------
EID:2503 1cf36a80
> Well, then likely you'll be open to re-thinking of the above
> statement,
> since it doesn't follow at all. Belief in God _in no way_
> necessitates
> being a creationist. I can imagine dozens of positions on the
> development of species that a theist might hold (and DO hold!).
But feeling heavy guilt makes up for logic? Sorry it seems to go hand and
hand
with some orginizations that try to control much like a cult would also?
Meanwhile the point. Yes, it's fine to believe in God and still not be a
creat
ionist. I don't get it? I suppose if one is to take every single word in
the B
ible as fact, and not allowed to question anything, it might create a problem.
But then there are passages which we all know are in error. I happen to
have
a strong belief, faith, and confidence in evolution! (how's that for a mixed
e
xp[lination?) On the other hand I find no conflict with a belief in God.
Just
like the question I saw last week. "If aliens would be proven to exist and
vis
t Earth, what would happen to religion and God?" As far as I am concerned,
not
hing. Mean our God couldn't be their God also?
And of course the ultimate answer: God being and all knowing and seeing
entity
created evolution, because he knew nothing stagnant could make progress
and c
ontinue with his plans. God knew that the ability to adjust and change was
nec
essary for his creation to live on as planned. End of argument?
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: John Powell
Sub: Re: OIL COMPANIES
Date: 19 Jul 94 13:42:32
--------
EID:7858 1cf36d40
>DH> I think that people need to have a better idea of what use they have
>DH> for their vehicle - why not have two - one gas powered for long
>DH> distance trips ( rental? ) and the electric for city commute ( 50 miles
>DH> per charge )
>
> Would these type of batteries exhibit the 'memory' that other
> (laptop,
> cellular phone) batteries have?
Hmm, actually the answer would be an electric car, with a Diesel generator
bui
lt in. When the batteries started to run low, the engine would kick in and
pow
er the car, while recharging the batteries. When charged, it would shut
off, a
nd you would run on electric battery power again. You would just have to
fill
the fuel tank, and remember to plug in at night.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
)
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From: Pete Porro
To: Steve Zadarnowski
Sub: ASTROLOGY
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:20:07
--------
EID:a990 1cf37280
> We still are surrounded by superstitious claptrap of 5000 years ago
> and all the baggage added to it since then. Now you know about the
> millions of Galaxies, star clusters, black holes, a finite universe
> and whatever, do the 12 starsigns of Astrology make any sense? Would
> you imagine that if they knew all this 5000 years ago that they'd
> pick 12 groups of starpoints and draw funny lines between them?
> Hell, they'd hardly be able to choose from between galaxies and
> clusters
> and other notable features.
Although claptrap, I think you missed something. The twelve groups are related
to positions of the sun. Basically a calendar and some pre-historic astronomy
. In fact, the origin of astronomy was astrology! Whether there are "millions
and millions" or Billions and billions... there are about 11,000 items visible
to the naked eye. So 5,000 years ago they could see just about what you
can i
f you walk outside in a dark, remote area. Nothing much more or less. So
their
choices are not as silly as it might seem. They didn't have a clue as the
the
rest.
You might also find that the figures on the Nazca plain are seasonal and
relat
e to an ancient calendar, that most if not all stone circles have astronomical
allignments (even though not the same) at one or two points. Indians (oops
Na
tive Americans) had pole circles and mound groups which happen to have alignme
nts. After all this, they didn't really know much, but they did observe
alot.
Hey, no TV. Pick berries, chase for food, and what do they do all night?
Watch
the sky!
And just in case the other point didn't come through clear... Astrology
is cla
ptrap, just as many of the theories as to what the ancients knew. It's easy
af
ter the fact to create connections, when the truth is that they were just
watc
hing things. Some allign with the sunrise on the summer solstice, some the
win
ter, and in the case of Maas Howe, the sunset on the winter solstice? No
consi
stancy between groups.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Re: SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:32:36
--------
EID:9904 1cf37400
> On (15 Jul 94) Adrian Eng wrote to J. Moore...
>
>AE> JM> I found your post highly enlightening [toidi na er'uoy]
>
>AE> Thank you =) What's the word in the square brackets for???
>
> Hold your monitor up to a mirror.
>
Ah Ha! Proof again, that it just doesn't work! No matter how accurate the
back
wards message might be on reflecting on a person's ability to reason.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: Don Allen
Sub: Re: WIERD ASSASSINATIONS
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:41:13
--------
EID:8a7d 1cf37520
> wb> (WB) Time is what you are loosing rapidly! WE are on a real
> wb> count down ending in 1997. You can can take that to the bank.
And 1993, and 1992, and hey wait aminute, those dates passed, and the alignmen
ts happened, and the earthquakes didn't... So now I have to wait until 1997
fo
r nothing to happen again? Remember the great convergence two years ago?
The m
oving into the new age. The cosmic vortex. Not to mention numerous final
expos
e' by the Govt. which also didn't happen.
> in Las Vegas simply to keep a lid on the aliens they have kidnapped
> for so many years.
I didn't see the whole show, how did it end?
BTW: This reminds me. How do you keep an idiot in suspense for seven days?
I'l
l tell the secret Next Week! 8*)
"The water ends and you will fall off the edge. Nothing but dragons beyond
her
e." From ancient nautical charts.
"Prepare to meet thy maker soon..." Some Dude 1000 BC
"Reality exists even if someone denies it..." Pete Porro
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: Dr Pepper
Sub: Re: JURY RIGHTS
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:49:06
--------
EID:aebc 1cf37620
> Second, if such a jury action would be beneficial to one side or the
> other (presumably mostly the defence) the lawyer for that side will
> certainly mention it.
BzzzzzzzzT!
If the attorney (either side) mentions the sentence or what the jury can
do, i
t's thrown out of court. You can say, I want a verdict of first degree murder,
guilty. But can't say, if you decide to give the client 80% compensation
they
will get XYZ dollars. etc. Or prosecution can't say a verdict of this or
that
will give the accused xyz years.
> This is stupid. First, i have never met anyone who doesn't know
> this, so why create an organization that pretends it's some sort of
> deep dark secret?
Never assume anyone knows anything. I'm sure you already know this. Like
peopl
e who don't know that water boils at 212 degrees! However I agree, it isn't
a
deep dark secret.
Just wait for justice in the OJ case. And wait and wait...
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: ...
Date: 19 Jul 94 14:54:08
--------
EID:53a6 1cf376c0
> Whereas in the Philippines, Gene Welch lost his wife
> 51 days after receiving the message. He failed to circulate
> the message.
But, but, that's Good Luck! 8*)
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
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From: Pete Porro
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: STATISTICS
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:00:54
--------
EID:c92b 1cf37800
Lets see, I'll make one up, but it will be true.
Non-swimmers are less likely to drowned that trained swimmers.
That will do fine. Yo can see the flaw? As for the videos that you or someone
else mentioned. Yes, the personality is what makes them rent the porno in
the
first place, not the cause after the fact.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
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From: Pete Porro
To: Jackson Harding
Sub: Re: FREE WILLY
Date: 19 Jul 94 15:14:52
--------
EID:b39d 1cf379c0
>GS> How to remove a dead whale, or the Farside comes to Oregon.
>
> This is without doubt the best post we've ever had here in the four
> years I've been moderator. Truly the first post where I have
> literaly been crippled with laughter and had tears rolling liberally
> down my cheeks.
>
You know this post has been going around for years. I'd just love to see
the v
ideo if it's really true? Should be sent into America's funniest videos.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Radio Free Milwaukee *Since 1983* <4-lines> 414 351-1823 (1:154/414
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--------
From: David Brown
To: Stewart Draper
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 21 Jul 94 08:57:06
--------
EID:aa7a 1cf54720
PID: ProBoard 2.01 rSr
07-09-94, Stewart Draper to Rod Speed:
[...]
SD> Don't think that I was attempting to argue
SD> you down or something; I was just enjoying mucking around with peoples
SD> considerations on science, religion and education.
This is scino talk.
SD> I found it most
SD> amusing to hear the reactions. Some were most displeased. You were
of
SD> course always correct in your opinions and was of course dealing with
SD> a silly nit-twit like myself who didn't have a clue about what real
SD> science was about. Please keep to your opinion, I have no problem
SD> with it. Whether you are wrong or right makes no difference to me.
I
SD> know what I know. Nice talking with a materialistic person and
SD> getting to the bottom of the hill of beans that your sitting on. It's
SD> humorous what people are writing about me they seem to have a great
SD> ambition to totally trash whatever I said; good for them, so be it.
Again, this sounds like scino stuff. Are you?
SD> Mr Speed there will come a time in your life when the evidence for
SD> UFO's and OOBE, reincarnation and other strange phenomena of
SD> that ilk
Elron used that word sometimes, too.
SD> will shake you little world apart. Please investigate what I have said
SD> with an open-mind if you are at all interested in reality and the
SD> truth in life. I know I am right, and I know that you are wrong.
"Certainty" is a scino tradition. Are you a scino?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Ken Stuckas
Sub: ...
Date: 26 Jul 94 13:58:55
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 678a28e7
REPLY: 1:112/40@fidonet.org 7a82d1dc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> threw the message away. Nine days later he died. In 1987,
FR> the message received by a young woman in California was very
FR> faded and barely readable. She promised herself that she
FR> would retype the message and send it on, but she set it
FR> aside to do it later. She was plagued with various
FR> problems, including expensive car repairs...
FR> Good Luck but please remember: 20 copies of this
FR> message must leave your hand.
ks> Oh, puleeeeze, Fredric!
I live for such nonsense. }:-} You know, this is rather like
my
setting a curse upon Rick, isn't it?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jeff Freeman
Sub: Skeptical of skeptics
Date: 26 Jul 94 13:39:37
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 678a28e8
REPLY: 1:124/1014.5121 26f3ce08
PID: FM 2.02
jf> BTW: In the RECFRP echo, a ten year old named Joey Fox is asking about
jf> an FM talk-radio show host named Bob Larson who is claiming some 15
jf> murders in Florida were cause by young teens (as young as 11 yrs old)
jf> playing D&D. As he told me, when they reach a certain point in their
jf> "realms" they must kill a friend or parent (someone well known).
Larson is a liar for 'Jesus.' He has been caught doing so in a vast arena
of
his activities. According to people he has conspired with and a Christian
pub
lication which examines such people, he has been caught engaged in
fraudulent activities with one of the co-authors of one of his book of lies;
the woman in question exposed him heavilly.
Download LARSON*.* from 1:124/9005.0 as I believe he's got these files availab
le for download. They cover the lies and frauds perpetrated by this clown
very
well.
If you don't get the files, tell me and I will hit David Rice for the files
an
d I will send them to your system.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: George Donnellan
Sub: HISTORICAL SCEPTICISM
Date: 26 Jul 94 13:50:19
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 678a28ea
PID: FM 2.02
rm>> Maybe you could accuse me of murder, or bestiality,
rm>> or child molestation. That would be a real hoot.
gd>> Whatever turns you on.
fr> Well, while I can't speak for Rick, I would have to say
fr> that I'm all for the afore mentioned bestiality. 'Which
fr> is kind of ammusing inasmuch as I am a vegetarian, huh?
gd> Perhaps you and Rick could get together
gd> then. Sounds like youre made for each other.
I'd rather have mindless, unintelligent animals. You, perhaps?
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Moen
Sub: ...
Date: 26 Jul 94 13:55:47
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 678a28eb
REPLY: 1:125/27 f326d71b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> This message has been sent to you for good luck. The original is in
FR> New England. It has been sent around the world nine times. . . .
rm> The Fido Phool will get you for that, Fred.
I shall place a voodoo curse upon Fido Phool! I saw Fido Phool
last
night pontificating upon the seven megabytes of discussion on shaving 18K
off
of the nodelist. It _does_ seem entirely pointless, huh?
BTW: I had a brief 'chat' with Steve Winter last night at 11:15 p.m. He
claim
s no involvement in the article he claims he didn't submit soliciting criminal
activities.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Pete Porro
Sub: ...
Date: 26 Jul 94 13:57:27
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 678a28ec
PID: FM 2.02
fr> Whereas in the Philippines, Gene Welch lost his wife
fr> 51 days after receiving the message. He failed to circulate
fr> the message.
pp> But, but, that's Good Luck! 8*)
His wife had all the credit cards.
---
* Origin: Creationist: Six impossible things before breakfast (1:102/890)
ÿ
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